A Sydney-based creative couple's journey into ranching and climate activism in New Zealand | Nicola Harvey & Pat Ledden of Slow Stream Farm

This episode is sponsored by Marvelous, is a software platform that has everything: courses, bundles, memberships, live streams, community, integrations, a mobile app, and live tech support from real humans. It is the world's most beautiful and easeful teaching platform. Check it out at: heymarvelous.com

I’m excited to invite you to my conversation with Nicola Harvey and Pat Ledden. In 2017, Pat and Nicola relocated from Sydney, Australia to take over her father’s land lease, north of Taupo in Aotearoa New Zealand. It was here that they built Slow Stream Farm. Their primary goal at Slow Stream Farm is to create a sustainable and regenerative agriculture operation - raising cattle on rotationally grazed pasture. Rich soil, clean waterways and healthy animals – all of the elements of the land and the farm living harmony with one another.

Since our last interview, Nicola and Pat had a baby, they pivoted their farm and work processes to weather Covid. They experimented with more unconventional ways of raising animals and regenerating the soil, and Nicola published a book on her farming journey, Farm: The Making of a Climate Activist, documenting her farming journey and struggle with effective industry-wide climate action.

Before starting Slow Stream Farm, Nicola worked as a journalist. Her career had her working for various media companies and production houses in London, Melbourne and Sydney. She worked her way up the corporate ladder and landed the sought after Managing Editor position at Buzzfeed Australia. Pat worked as a property valuer and played guitar in bands.

In 2019, I interviewed and featured Nicola and Pat for Urban Exodus. They were just starting their journey and it is absolutely incredible how far they’ve come since we last spoke - what they’ve learned, the hardships they’ve faced, and the incredible ways their lifestyles and perspectives have shifted since leaving city life in Sydney.

This is a story about stepping outside of your comfort zone, coloring outside the lines to find better ways of doing things, and standing up for the planet (even when it isn’t popular).

Transcript

Alissa Hessler: 0:00

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Nicola: 0:33

change doesn't happen whilst you're arguing with people. And that was a really big reckoning for me to have as well that there is no glory and being, you know, the hero of the story and winning on the day, that the stakes are too high for too many people at the moment.

Alissa Hessler: 0:52

Have you ever dreamed of making a radical shift? What does it take to build a more intentional life? What is gained from reconnecting with yourself with community and with the natural world? I'm Alissa Hessler. I've spent the last decade meeting with people all over the world who have made remarkable transitions in their lives. How do they do it? What did they sacrifice? What have they learned? Stepping away from convention isn't easy. But we all have the power to reclaim the things that we've lost, to slow down to change course, to create the life we want for ourselves and for future generations. The urban Exodus podcast shares, practical advice, and inspirational words to embolden and guide you on your own journey. These are the stories of those brave enough to venture down the road less traveled. This is the urban Exodus. Urban Exodus is community supported programming, please consider sponsoring an episode or making a contribution so we can keep these conversations going. The easiest way to contribute is to click the support button on the top of urban exodus.com. You can also become a member of the urban Exodus community to peruse our archives of hundreds of photos, stories and interviews of people who love city life, or subscribe to Apple podcasts premium to have access to bonus episodes, or rapid fire interviews with guests and our new mini podcast ditch the city where I answer listeners questions and offer practical advice on a whole myriad of topics. If you have a question for an upcoming episode that you'd like us to consider, please send us a DM on Instagram, or through our contact us page. Thank you for helping me continue to do this work. I couldn't do it without all of you. And if you haven't already, we would really love it if you'd leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or whatever service you listened on. And please recommend urban exodus to your friends. I'm excited to invite you to my conversation with Nicola Harvey and Pat leaden in 2017 Pat and Nicola relocated from Sydney, Australia to take over her father's land lease located outside of Talco New Zealand. It was here that they built slow stream farm. Their primary goal at the farm is to create a sustainable and regenerative agriculture operation. They're raising cattle on rotationally grazed pasture and are seeking to have rich soil, clean waterways and healthy animals. All of the elements of the land and the farm living in harmony with one another. Before starting slow stream farm. Nicola worked as a journalist. Her career had her working for various media companies and production houses in London, Melbourne and Sydney. She worked her way up the corporate ladder and landed the sought after Managing Editor position at BuzzFeed Australia. Pat worked as a musician, playing guitar in bands and as a property valuer in 2019 I interviewed and featured Nicola and pat on urban Exodus, they were just starting their journey and it is absolutely incredible how far they've come since we last spoke, what they've learned, the hardships that they faced and the incredible ways their lifestyles and perspectives have shifted, since leaving city life and Sydney since our last interview, Nicola and Pat welcomed a baby girl into their lives, they pivoted their farm and work processes to weather COVID. And in addition, Nicola authored a book that is coming out this year, detailing their journey into farming and climate activism and the lessons that they've learned along the way. Her book is entitled farm, the making of a climate activist. This is a story about stepping outside of your comfort zone, coloring outside the lines to find better ways of doing things. and standing up for the planet, even when it isn't popular even when it isn't popular. So I'm really excited to have on the podcast, Nicola and Pat, they operate a cattle farm in New Zealand, and they had a really big transition from Sydney, from the creative world in Sydney, to being farmers and ranchers in New Zealand. And the last time I spoke with you guys, we did a feature on you. And that was like 2018. And so much has changed in the world. And so much has changed in your life. So I'm really excited to have you both on and for you to share your story and to catch us up on where you are now and what you've learned on your journey.

Unknown: 5:53

Thank you for having us on. Again. It's been a huge four years for us four years, goodness, for four and a half. Yeah. And obviously, as Pat said, one of those great big milestone moments was having our first child, a daughter, Clara, there's also you know, the last four years have also been a really interesting time for us here and globally. What with you know, COVID and various lockdowns happening and border closures. And us having some of our lifestyle choices cut off from us about no longer being able to go home to Australia. So it's yeah, it's been a big ride, which is not just the farming story, but you know, the global story as well.

Alissa Hessler: 6:35

Well, first off, I'd love if you guys would just share a little bit of your personal backstory, where you each grew up the path that you've taken to where you are now and how the two of you met one another as well.

Unknown: 6:48

I grew up in Dubbo, which is in the middle of New South Wales, in Australia, and it's a large regional slash rural town population about 40, odd 1000 When I was there, so it's probably a five hour drive from Sydney for reference point. So in coming here, like I, I had had experience in not living in a big city because I grew up, you know, in a, although it wasn't a small place, it was kind of a semi ice, you know, Australia is so big, so it's quite spread out. So it's, you know, isolated from the capital cities. But it's not, it's not small in itself. So I grew up there until I left school, and that's when I moved to Sydney. And where we are farming now is actually the hometown that I grew up in. It's called Topo. It's in the middle of the North Island of Aotearoa, New Zealand. So for geographical reference, about three and a half, three hours, three and a half hours south of Auckland. And it's again, it's a small town, it's about 28,000. And we found just north of that. So that town is sort of our local community, so to speak. And you know, growing up, it felt very small. And I basically left as soon as I was able, firstly University and then moved overseas as so many New Zealanders and Australians actually, for that matter, due to pursue work opportunities, and life and travel and all of that fun stuff, which is how I ended up in Australia. And I did a stint in London and then came back to Sydney in 2009. And I met pet probably four weeks after I arrived, I think just through through mutual friends yeah, of your flatmate. Yeah, which was kind of the context, we actually met first at a really, really great live music venue called the Annandale Hotel, which is no longer unfortunately. And they were hosting a Anzac Day or Easter, they were hosting a weekend music festival. And that was the first time we met through this friend. And it's sort of that sort of been a theme for us all the way through our relationship as we, you know, we're grounded by this love of music and arts and culture. And that sort of sustained us for a really long time. And we were living in Sydney, I was working in the arts and that was, you know, constantly involved in live music and playing it and consuming and all that kind of stuff. And then we left all that behind and moved to a farm and and they they guys did a live music thing.

Alissa Hessler: 9:19

What was the early days of that transition? Like for you both because you really did step out? I mean, I know it was you returning home Nicola, but you really stepped out of your comfort zones? What did it feel like those first couple of years to kind of adapt to this new lifestyle you were pursuing?

Unknown: 9:38

My most pleasing recollection of that moment, that period of time, was there was a enormous amount of energy and enthusiasm from both of us in the first couple of months. And we came on to the farm or we had to learn how to farm and we started what we call rearing calves, which is looking after baby cattle. And that very soon transitioned into just an absolute grow I kind of labor seven days a week, we had no time off, we were just head down and absolutely pushing forward, trying to learn trying to, you know, do our best at this new business venture, trying to keep the baby animals alive and healthy and all that kind of stuff. And so the for me that first 12 months, which led into the first 18 months before our daughter was born, was just this relentless grind of labor, which I don't think either of us fully appreciate it. Because we spoke about this, we had ideas of wanting to change our lifestyle and go a little bit slower. And you know, that's romantic ideal. And we chose that aspect of farming, which was probably one of the most labor intensive without fully in. Yeah, yeah. And so reflecting back on that time, now, I'm just overwhelmed with this sense of exhaustion.

Pat: 10:51

Yeah, much like Nikki just said, like, I think the first 12 to 18 months were pretty well taken up just with the steep learning curve of, you know, a new a new job, essentially, and a new lifestyle, that there wasn't a huge amount of time to kind of, you know, maybe like, we thought we're going to, like explore New Zealand and go do this. And that, and, you know, that just got thrown out the window. Like when Nikki said that we were kind of thrown into working, you know, full days, seven days a week, kind of, like it is what we signed up to. But I guess we were a bit naive in thinking that the style, that style of farming would also allow, like, down. Yeah,

Unknown: 11:32

and there is the, you know, the adage, once you have livestock and animals, you'd never go on holiday, because just to look after the,

Alissa Hessler: 11:39

yeah, you're really tethered to your farm, what was the breaking point, or what made you decide, ultimately, to take that leap into this kind of unknown world, especially for you, Pat, because this was not something that you grew up with? What made you guys have the courage to make that big leap?

Unknown: 11:58

I think like, after many years of just living in the big city, where it's pretty full on all the time, even when you think you're having a quiet week, you're inevitably still like, you know, staying back at work or having like, some kind of work function on a weeknight, and then you're, you know, tired the next day, which rolls into the rest of the week, and then the weekends kind of taken up with being sort of half asleep, catching up on all the stuff you haven't done during the week, and then, you know, socializing or whatever I think just doing that year on year, and both have been kind of pretty busy jobs that, you know, kind of creep into taking over your life, when it sort of came up. It was kind of like, well, now or never like, let's just see, see what happens, I guess, we've always had the backup plan in the in our mind of like, if six months, 12 months, this just isn't for us, like we can always go back and just go back to what we were doing. But I think the the constant exhaustion that Penny mentions, we were pretty close to probably physically burning out. But we just didn't have the language or the knowledge around what that actually meant. But you know, that constant feeling of exhaustion, and the city was just becoming a bit all consuming. And so there's the chance to come back to New Zealand to live on a piece of land came with that sort of romantic sense of we could just live a little bit slower. But as I mentioned earlier, you know, when when we had that, that thought of, we can always go home to Sydney, if it doesn't work out, well, you know, 18 months passed, and then another six, and suddenly we were in COVID. And that, you know, that had basically kind of closed because New Zealand locked down for, you know, a significant portion. So reduce your circumstance, we also just had that moment of well, with, you know, we're really here and locked in now. And there were a lot of things and we can talk about this more. That led us to a tipping point of changing the way that we manage the land and did things on the farm significantly. But it also coincided with that moment of realization that we'd started farming the wrong way. And we were working too hard. And everything that we moved here for heads disappeared, we'd lost sight of it. And then COVID happens. And we were financially strapped. And so we had to like force a, you know, a big decision about the way we farmed here.

Alissa Hessler: 14:30

So even as farmers, you really had to pivot and reevaluate, and in some ways, the hand was forced that, you know, there was no plan B like you thought maybe you had had, I'd love for you to talk about, you know what realizations you had about your business and the changes that you implemented so that you could live a more sustainable way or at least not have that same burnout that you were trying to escape from the city.

Unknown: 14:59

I think the realisation that we were stuck into a system of farming or a tradition of farming here, that was very conventional. And it was rooted in an export industry. And it was, you know, very much tethered to a constant churn of manipulating the land. And it felt very out of step with our core values and what we wanted to do as farmers but also as people. And so Pat basically went on this big explore exploration of different farming practices and how they were being applied to different land around New Zealand, but also around the world. And he, you know, the University of YouTube as a marvel, by the way, when it comes to farming knowledge. So it was through Petty's experimentation with different sort of farming techniques and knowledge systems that sort of precipitated our change to the business model. Do you want to talk about why you wanted to change a bit? Yeah, I guess, like when we first got here, and had no idea what to do is, you know, you seek advice off, whether it's neighbors or, you know, people in the industry, or people at the farm supply stores that, you know, we were in contact with these people and saying, you know, we've got this problem, what should we do, and every single part of the advice that we got University of everyone just didn't sit, right, because it was all to do with, like, like Nikki sort of mentioned, manipulating the land, like it was all to do with, you need to add this synthetic fertilizer to boost production and make things happen unnaturally out of season. And, you know, all this kind of stuff was slight, and probably still is the only advice that we were given and we dabbled with that hurt because we didn't know anything else. And it turned out it was like, very expensive, not not that effective, really. And that's what led to the kind of realization that like this can't be the right way to do this, it doesn't feel right. It's not what we kind of believe in and that like Nicky said, lead to the search for better solutions on how to how to manage the land, essentially. And we joined a group of I suppose, like minded farmers who were sort of pursuing some of these new methods themselves. And we were having webinars and whatnot, and sharing information and hearing from guest speakers and felt that there was a little bit more of a community building around this new style of farming in New Zealand. They weren't necessarily next door to us physically, but you know, they were there, which was comforting. And I suppose, you know, the best way to describe the style of farming that we do here now is drawing on principles of regenerative agriculture, which has currency in the US, certainly drawing on principles of agro ecology, which is a lot more of a UK term, but it's also very much grounded in the specific land that we farm on, which has its nuances and its difficulties for a bunch of reasons. So it is basically just farming with the acknowledgement that we are farming for a specific piece of land, rather than applying a template of conventional farming onto it.

Alissa Hessler: 18:17

I'd love to know specifically what changes you've implemented and what your schedules look like. Now, because of those changes.

Unknown: 18:26

Probably the main ones is like we blanket stops, like applying any synthetic fertilizer. So with we don't use that much fertilizer at all, but we've only use like natural fertilizers like seaweed based and fish based fertilizers. And then we use the fertilizer that comes out of the rear end of the cattle,

Alissa Hessler: 18:51

the most readily available fertilizer.

Unknown: 18:54

Yeah, so to do that, it's just a massive change in the grazing practices. So instead of like traditional set stocking, where you may just have a certain amount of cattle in a portion of the farm that stay there for quite a while and just make it work. We put all our animals in one big mob and move them depending on the paddock size, usually once a day, sometimes twice a day because we do have some quite small paddocks. So the idea of that is that they they're non selective of what they're eating because you know the, they're in a big mob so they'll chew the pasture evenly and distribute the manure evenly and have a lot of hoof pressure to sort of mix it all up essentially and then move on to the next paddock and that that paddock will get rested for you know a decent amount of time depending on season instead of you know when we first started and didn't know what we were doing would sort of have little bits and pieces of cattle here there and everywhere and you know had the grass. Yeah, essentially. And the the role on impact of just changing the way we manage stock is really visible to the eyes, suddenly, we've had, you know, phenomenal, like the pasture and the grasslands have really improved in terms of quality and diversity, we've had even an enormous amount of new insect life and bird life come on to the property because they've got food. So the process like some really simple techniques, and the cutting out of inputs has actually created a really a thriving little ecosystem on the farm, which is actually visible to us, which is incredible. And I think it's also that philosophy has also benefited some of the neighboring projects that are happening, we we farm next to a waterway, which has been rejuvenated by a landowner in collaboration with the local hapu, which is a Maori tribe. And they have spent hours and hours and hours planting 10s of 1000s of native species on long waterways to try and rejuvenate it and turn it back into a wetland which it once was. And so we are really mindful of the commitment that is being shallow and to rehabilitate that waterway, which is such an important waterway for the harpoon. And so what the way that we found is also mindful of not doing anything detrimental to that rejuvenation project. So no sediment no slippage, you know, nitrogen leaching, because we're not doing synthetic fertilizing. So the way that we apply our farming techniques is also in response to some of the work that other members of the community are doing. And that kind of philosophy is really grounded in, I suppose a different way of farming that we're excited about, which is that, you know, that idea of drawing on regenerative principles is also to acknowledge that there are different knowledge systems that feed into the way that land is managed. And, you know, that's, that's really exciting to us. It's not all about fueling or funneling everything we do into a market economy, because there's many ways to think about land management, and many ways to think about food production.

Alissa Hessler: 22:09

It's oftentimes, you know, either first generation farmers or people that are kind of experimenting in farming, where you step outside the norms of convention. And I think that as people are seeing young farmers experimenting in this way, and actually having success and seeing things kind of come back to life be restored. I'm wondering how your community has responded to that. Because I also think that it's hard to step outside of convention, when everybody has done something the same way forever. And, you know, any inroads that you've made with your community to just kind of show them what you're doing and that, you know, maybe they could try some of those things for themselves.

Unknown: 22:53

The landowner, because we lease this property, the landowners are really happy and supportive of it. Because yeah, but but that's in contrast to the a lot of farmers in New Zealand and around here have retirement or older age like, and they're very stuck in their ways. So they sort of don't see any benefit to changing from the way they know. I suppose the worst example of it is they're just out with laughter. You know, they think we are amusing and a little bit odd. And it's easy to dismiss what you don't know or don't understand. It's, you know, it's passed off as a bit of a joke. So let's move on. But there has been a, I suppose, a groundswell of interest in some of the techniques that Patti has been using over the last couple of years, very recently, in the last maybe six to eight months, because market forces being what they are, people are being forced into doing things differently, because of government regulation, but also just a pragmatic things like the cost of fertilizer has skyrocketed. So suddenly, people are looking to do farming differently because they can't afford to do it the other way around. So these kinds of pressures that come into the community has shifted some of the comments that are directed our way or directed towards the type of farming that we do, but there is sort of still an underlying cynicism amongst the arm old dad, that nothing's broken. Therefore, you don't need to change anything. New Zealand as the most efficient farming, that there is on the planet, so let's just, you know, keep going as is that's the sort of mentality that exists amongst the majority of majority, a vast portion of New Zealand's landowners and farmers. So we we come in and we have some ideas and prove that it works. You know, a lot of people were either dismissive or they think it's a joke, or they'll look and consider but not openly support. There's never a lot of open support, they'll go away and consider maybe I might just trial that but not tell anyone that I'm doing it. The fear of being ridiculed by their own cohort.

Alissa Hessler: 25:00

Calling all small business owners? Are you looking to expand your customer base beyond the reach of your local community, speak to our loyal audience of over 38,000 listeners by sponsoring an episode of the urban Exodus podcast. For more information, visit urban exodus.com/podcast. In New Zealand is unique in that the guidelines for animal husbandry become highly regulated and very transparent in recent years, and I wondered if you could speak to why that is and what that means to you both as cattle ranchers now,

Unknown: 25:37

it actually just fits with the way that we work with animals anyway, there have been some significant changes to the animal welfare codes and just the last two or three years, but nothing that has come in has changed the way that we do things anyway. So we don't know any different really, because like, yeah, we've always had a very, I don't want to say soft way of working with cattle, but it's a cattle centric way of working with them. So you know, responding to animal instinct, rather than trying to force animals to do it the human way is key to what we do, whether it's, you know, the way that pet masters or the way that we move them around the land or the way we work with them in the yards. And it doesn't necessarily always go according to plan, because animals will be animals, but we've not had a problem with the changes to the welfare code at all. And it's, you know, it's been interesting to work really closely with our vets, for example, because some code changes means we, you know, get bits in to do specific procedures at certain times of the year. And, you know, a lot of it is around, you know, pain management when animals have to have, you know, things treated or the way that we don't, or do administer antibiotics if an animal is unwell. So it has been relatively easy for us to work through those changes.

Alissa Hessler: 26:55

Nicola, you wrote and produced a podcast mini series called the carnivores crisis. And I wondered if you could share a little bit about what the carnivores crisis is, and what your views on meat consumption are and how they've been evolved since you've embarked on this journey.

Unknown: 27:12

So a cannabis crisis was an eight part audio documentary that was commissioned by Audible, and it's still available to listen on Audible app. And it was hosted by Rachel KU who is a British born cook and broadcaster who actually lives in Sweden at the moment. And it sets out to answer the question does meat and dairy production need to die in order for the planet to live? It was produced in that window where there was a lot of media coverage of the reports that were looking at sustainable food systems and non sustainable food systems and the impact on the environment. And there was a lot of rhetoric that a plant based diet was the best way for individuals to contribute to the climate mitigation issue. And so we recorded storylines and material in New Zealand and Australia and the UK and the US and tried to cover sort of the Western food system, and came to a conclusion that has been asked and answered elsewhere. But an end to animal husbandry and dairy and meat production wasn't the answer to solving climate change. Alright, so

Alissa Hessler: 28:29

I would love to kind of shift gears a little bit and talk about farming and climate change. This is the second day that we've done this interview, we've had a little cut out. So if it feels like the audio levels are different, it's because they were because New Zealand just had a huge weather event. And we were just talking about that offline. So Nicola, the topic of your new book that's coming out is farming and climate change. And I know that you guys have been experimenting and trying to do things a little bit different. And that's the way that a lot of new farmers coming into the field are starting to function because they're trying to adapt to a rapidly changing environment. So I'd love for you to share what the book is about and your process of writing that book, while also farming while also being a mother while also doing all of these other pieces as well.

Unknown: 29:25

Sure. So the book is titled farm, the making of the climate activist, which is fairly explanatory of what the content of the book is about. It is a personal personal narrative. So I wrote it as a reported memoir using pet in my experience of coming into farming, having spent the vast majority of our adult life in a big city or big cities and coming into a community and in a farming industry, with a set of values and a worldview that was molded by The urban life rather than rural communities. And with that came some assumptions and expectations about what we would like to have seen. Others do on farms, how food was produced, what farmers were doing in terms of an environmental footprint, what farmers were doing to improve their land and environment in the face of climate change. And we were constantly confronted and challenged by what was initially inertia. In some pockets, it was completely dismissed, our concerns about what was happening to the land was sort of written off as a bit of a joke, and it's a face and it will pass. And we put those conversations into the camp of outright climate denier lists, which there are still many, and that's for them to grapple with. Because as you pointed out, New Zealand has had yet another flooding event over the last couple of days, week last week. Yeah, yeah. And a big portion of the top of the South Island is now completely underwater, and, and they are facing months of cleanup. And it is a common story. We've had storm after storm this winter, and flooding events for months. So it's not an uncommon story, because as you have pointed out, it's happening all over the world. So these events started happening when we first came into farming. And so we started exploring ways in which we could be more flexible in our farm business and roll with the weather patterns, as opposed to finding them frightening and an obstacle that was just impossible to overcome, which I suppose if you're relying on tradition, and templating, farming with the same processes year in year out, these enormous weather events are absolutely terrifying, because they, they can wipe out your entire business model in one go. And so the way that Pat was starting to incorporate some of the ideas around regenerative agriculture into our farming system was focused on being flexible enough to move with the weather and move with the climate and move with the way that the land was changing. And to have a business model that was grounded by the fact that the land is changing, and the climate is too. And we wanted to still keep farming, we wanted to still produce food. And so that flexibility as well as essentially wrote the book around as you know, how do you come into farming, as to people from a city background who are new to this with a view to change some of it and still survive whilst doing it. So it's a very yeah, like I said, a personal story that explores how human relationships can guide and can guide change, but also how human relationships can break down if the barriers to understanding and the barriers across knowledge systems are too great to find common ground. And that is still a reality. For us. We have people in our life who perhaps just don't see value in what we're doing. And unfortunately, it's a bit of a viceversa, we, you know, struggle with some of the traditions and the older practices that have taken deep roots here in New Zealand as well. So it's a an exploration for a lot for city readers as well into how to understand farming practices and how to find common ground with people when we're talking about climate change. Essentially,

Alissa Hessler: 33:21

this is something that having interviewed people all over the world, you know, there's this, people moving from cities, moving into rural communities wanting to do things differently, change is a hard thing to happen in those areas. I wondered how you've made inroads with people and if you feel like you have built a community there that feels supportive of what you're doing? And then second question, which really ties in more to the book, I'd love to know the processes that you've discovered and what's working for you. Because I think that there are so many young farmers that are trying to figure out, you know, how do we, how do we keep up with this, because it's a constantly moving and evolving thing. And you're at odds with the weather all the time. Now,

Unknown: 34:07

to your first question, I have done a lot of thinking and research around strategies for for change, essentially. And when I first came back to ltr, and back to this community, I was in the habit of arguing with people a lot with the assumption that, you know, my worldview was the better worldview, and the one that would put us in good stage to move into the future. And what I have discovered over the past few years as a, you know, there are always different viewpoints that will create blockages, but I think it is imperative that those at odds. pause for a moment and try and appreciate the way you know where those viewpoints are coming from and the knowledge systems that underpin them. And then to try and find a common space where could sounds can be aired and commonalities can be found. I did a lot of research around, you know, some really established practices like behavioral change, cognitive dissonance, all of that kind of stuff, which is fascinating. But I also found it really frustrating, because it didn't feel like it was fresh enough to, to create this, you know, something new that I think we all need in the farming space, but also in life in general. And so I started looking at ways for, I suppose, new system design and strategies for proving your point rather than arguing the point, which is where hat and I finally, I think, after some, you know, tumultuous years of trying to figure out how to work together as well, we got a really interesting rhythm going in that patch is very practical, and just got on with the act of creating a new style of farming and a new way of doing it here on this land. So it was incumbent on me to just kind of learn from him, as I was also trying to communicate what we were trying to do to others who were interested. But also just understand that change doesn't happen whilst you're arguing with people. And that was a really big reckoning for me to have as well that there is no glory and being, you know, the hero of the story and winning on the day, that the stakes are too high for too many people at the moment. So I have actually learned an enormous amount of pet just from from Pat, just by watching him get on with the job of doing things differently. Yeah, mainly just the, the grazing methods is probably our main difference than what conventional farmers in the area do like by putting all our stock together and, and rotating through our paddocks quite quickly rather than let them like demolish everything and and then that creates, like what Nikki was mentioning with the floods, and everything creates problems with the water runoff, slug compaction and whatnot, we don't really have that problem so much anymore, because of you know, leaving leaving more residual in their growth and not exposing their soil and things like that, that a lot of farmers around our area put in winter winter crops as the grass doesn't really grow here much at all ever winter. But we've found that we don't actually need to do that with our grazing system, and probably stocking more appropriately to the land size and style rather than stocking as much as you can. And then when it gets tight, bringing in food from elsewhere, which seems to be the normal done thing here. And we had a realization that these simple changes started to change the environment around us as well brought in a lot more life in general. So the you know, the insect population started booming, and they weren't considered pests, they were just part of, you know, our ecosystem, the bird life has just gotten crazy. It's like it's, we've, we're running a bird sanctuary now. And we had all of these sort of roll on of effects just by treating the land in a different way. And, you know, that allows us to feel like we're within a living system. And so our role is not to suppress that or to dominate it, but to work within it. And, you know, we have production animals, like cattle or beef cattle, so they are destined to be food. And it is imperative for us that they you know, Live a good, healthy, happy life whilst they're on the land. And their demeanor and their playfulness is really evident that that system is working for them as well as for us. So it feels like we're doing some things right because everything around us is really starting to work in the in the way that it should.

Alissa Hessler: 38:50

How often do you move paddocks and how much space do you give your cattle in? How do you move them? Like do you feel like you're spending more time now in the actual movement of cattle or is it less time and your overall running

Unknown: 39:05

off it? I think generally it's less time because we only have one mob most of the year so when you move you just sometimes it's if it's an adjoining paddock, sometimes it's as simple as opening the gate and they will you know they're ready for the next move. And you're gonna go in Yeah, you want the dog or the motorbike or whatever they they do the move for you. So in many ways that can be quicker, but our farm is not uniformly divided up so there's quite a variety and sizes of paddocks and also the slope of the paddock and the way it faces will determine how much growth you get. So you know some some times I might move twice a day on a small paddock and other times I might leave them in a really big paddock for two days. So it's all like not guesswork. I've kind of where After that, but but like, there's no sort of uniform thing like I move once a

day at 8: 40:05

30am. Like it just doesn't work like that on this farm and I guess most farms, so yes, definitely. And then different times a year when the grass is growing at different rates is going to change then as well, and when so at the moment, for example, that pet setting up a lot of breaks with hot wires, because we're also feeding bales of silage as well, which was from the farm. So we crop wheat crops that in October last year, and stored it and it's the only supplementary feed that the cattle gate, which is essentially just grass from anywhere. So there is a little bit of time and labor in setting up the brakes. But it's still all relative because he doesn't have to be using a tractor. So we made a change this year. And that we don't use a tractor at all, because we don't have one at the moment. So we went through a process where pets set out all of the bales at the start of winter. And we're just slowly working the cattle around the farm to follow the bales. So all of our winter work is done. You know, feeding out is done just on a on a bike on a two wheeler with a dog. And when I'm helping, which is not as often anymore. It's you know, like I'm on foot. So it's very low impact from a fossil fuels point of view as well as an expense point of view. Like we're not, we're not spending money on diesel and things like we were initially when we had less of an idea of what we'll actually could achieve. And were more just doing what we were observing everyone else doing or getting told what to do. Like it was very expensive to pay for fuel, which was got, you know, a lot more expensive in the years we've been here as well. So we're Yeah, we basically have a almost non existent fuel bill, which is quite good. Yeah, mainly just use a two wheeler motorbike, which is very economical. But there are now evey bikes like five vehicles on the market in New Zealand, we haven't gone that far yet. But it is interesting to see that you know, in the coming years, it would be quite easy to transition completely away from a petrol vehicle as well or your vehicle.

Alissa Hessler: 42:12

I just wanted to give an enormous thank you to all of you who have made contributions to offset the production costs of this podcast, it means so much to me that you find enough meaning and value to pledge your support to keep this going. If you haven't had a chance to contribute, we've made it really easy for you just click the support button on the top of urban Exodus website, you can also get access to bonus episodes, rapid fire interviews, and our new mini podcast, ditch the city by signing up for our apple podcasts premium. Or you can become a member of the urban Exodus online community where you can access hundreds of photos, stories, interviews, tutorials, videos and more. Find out more by visiting the membership page on urban exodus.com. I think it's interesting because you know, talking about New Zealand in the States, and I think in a lot of the Western world, like New Zealand is the ideal in our minds, you hear about billionaires like buying up property in New Zealand because like New Zealand is going to be the place that will be safe from climate change. And I would love for you to talk a little bit. Have you seen that influx of migration into New Zealand as of late and any thoughts you have on that?

Unknown: 43:31

That's not noticeable? In our area? It's probably more like this. Yeah, for islands like that, you know, people have the image of Lord of the Rings and everything that's that's all down the south islands. And there were quite a number of very large historic stations in the South Island that changed hands. I mean, that's the, you know, the billionaires are gobbling up that size of land and property. But as Pat said, it's not it certainly hasn't been the case in the last two and a half years because we've been locked down and the immigration system has basically shut down completely. So unless you are an essential worker in healthcare, or, or willing to work on a dairy farm, then you're essentially not welcome in New Zealand at the moment from an immigration point of view, unless you've got as we've discussed, millions and millions of dollars, which you're willing to invest in the economy. That's that'll start to change. Now that New Zealand's opened its borders. It's just been pretty shut off since 2020. And I think it's a really interesting you can talk about this in a sec, coming from an outsider's point of view. But New Zealand does have an interesting reputation abroad and it is very orchestrated and well crafted. And it ties in with the fact that our two biggest economic drivers are primary industries and the export of food and fiber and tourism and the export of tourism abroad. So there is an expectation I think that people have of New Zealand, which is lovely and magical. And wouldn't it be nice if that was the reality? When you actually, you know, they're down here and you spend a certain amount of time there are as there are all over the world specific challenges and specific concerns of living in this country. And you know, the most pressing lands, cost of living is huge. wage growth is not that great. So the ratio between how much it costs to live here and what you're earning is abysmal. We feel very far away from every, certainly when the borders were closed. So the isolation is certainly something that has its pros and cons. And you know, there's the usual social discontent is there is everywhere else in the world. It's not a magical land, with a magical leader by any stretch. But you know, it's been phenomenal for us in the last two years, because we felt we did, I mean, I felt safe being here during COVID, because they locked down and they're locked down really hard. And it was lovely to have those two years with our daughter on the farm. So better than then in a in our apartment in Sydney, where we would have probably driven each other crazy. And you know, that was the case, people I know,

Alissa Hessler: 46:18

well, let's talk about having a child because that's a monumental shift, regardless of where you are living. And that all kind of happened at the same time as you're going through this other transition. How has parenthood shifted your partnership, your processes and your perspectives,

Unknown: 46:38

just the, like the basic practicalities of it, I we went from rearing calves, which was a seven day a week, weekend, week out grind of labor, and working together doing that. And then when we had Clara, I tried to do the first season with her in a baggie and her asleep. And, you know, I just tried to do everything. I was also producing the documentary at that same time. And I almost, I mean, I did burn out and I almost lost the plot completely. So it was way too much. And I hadn't shifted my expectations around what was possible when Clara was born. So it took a while for me to understand how to live a different style of life. And you know, prioritize being a man, this makes me sound like a terrible mother. But I'm pretty sure lots of new moms go through this, and adds that disconnect between what was possible before and what's possible after. So I just ran on adrenaline for the 12 months after Clara was born and flamed out spectacularly. So I don't advise people assume that they can just do everything, it's not possible. So we've after a lot of difficulty, and me just being an enormous pain in the butt, we found a rhythm where we shared parenting so that I could keep doing a little bit of work. But I just realized that my focus was it needed to be on Clara. And so that kind of settled. And unfortunately, that meant I wasn't able to help her or that much, or give him much time or attention. But we're getting better at all of that. And we've now got to a point where Clara goes to kindergarten three days a week, which gives me time to do my media work, and also gives us the time that we need away from each other to just kind of settle into our own lives as well. Because I think during COVID and certainly when we first arrived at the farm, we were very much across everything all the time with each other. And I just it wasn't like the greatest working method for us as a couple. Like, what do you think? Yeah, no, sum it all up. Yeah, but you I mean, you really enjoy being a dad with Clara like, yeah, yeah. coparenting is, is great. And it works. If you are lucky enough to you know, have a business which we do, which allows it where you can work from home, essentially. Yeah,

Alissa Hessler: 49:05

my husband and I, we always work together, we had a creative business when we moved out here. And when our daughter was born, it was very similar. It was feeling like you could just keep going at the same rate that you were doing everything and especially when you're farming that is all in and the stakes are so high and especially if you're just getting your infrastructure put together to I wondered how you to weather that and then to have piled on top of it. COVID which for us was a total reckoning of how do we divide the work you know who's works what, how much time does each person need just so much communication needs to happen in that? Do you feel like coming out of this that your relationship is that much stronger because of going through all these things like looking back at you know, the early days in Sydney when it was more carefree and Now like, do you just feel like you can hash through anything?

Unknown: 50:03

Yeah, like, it's definitely a lot more, I guess life experience where we're in Sydney, everything was, it wasn't easy. But there was always due to both having like, professional jobs, there was always like, money coming in. So there was no real financial pressures. And we didn't have Blackford mouths to feed either. So like, those sort of less to think about in that respect, and we weren't around each other much, like only after work, and on the weekends, where now it's kind of like, you know, some, some days it can be from, you know, wake up to go, kind of like in each other's pockets a bit. I think it also just required us to have a really honest conversation about what we wanted to do, and our relationship and our business, and just acknowledge that we don't work well, together all the time, every single day. And that's completely fine. It's, you know, there is no dream scenario where I mean, some people can do it, and we can't we function really well, when we've got our individual space and our individual projects, as well as working on businesses together. I also think it made a big difference when we had conversations about who we wanted in our life here in New Zealand, as well, and the kind of pressures that came with trying to be everything to everyone. And then I needed to also refocus my attention on what's really important, which is Pat and Clara. And so just also prioritizing, you know, what, what was most important was, I think, probably made a big difference to our relationship as well. Because I just I got into that pattern of just trying to do everything for everyone, and please everyone all the time, and it's impossible,

Alissa Hessler: 51:51

it truly is impossible to try to please everyone. And I think this is such good advice. Because oftentimes, when you make that transition with a partner, you're creating something or you're bringing something that you're both doing together, and you're both focused on and working on it. And it's okay, if if it doesn't work that way, it's very hard to work with your partner all day long. And that's really good advice for anybody that's embarking on this and feeling like it's not working. I wondered what both of your creative processes are like, and how you gather your inspiration, and how you find time to farm and create. Are you still making music? Pat? Is that still something that you have in your back pocket that you do?

Unknown: 52:38

want so much? It's since we've been here? No. Like, it's sort of something that has fallen by the wayside, unfortunately. But I probably did the project with Doug, since we last spoke. But yeah, yeah, it's just yeah, hopefully, I'll find more time now that we've got a bit better of a farm system. I mean, that is that is just one of the realities of the last few years, that things that we have really cared about and are deeply passionate about have fallen by the wayside. And that's probably more well as much about the role of being a parent on top of everything else, that that took the time where our creative pursuits use dissent. But I think as you know, Clara gets older and she goes into school, that time starts to open up again. And we talk literally daily, you know, weekly about ways to carve out enough time for pet to start working on his music again. So it hasn't disappeared. It's just on hiatus for the time being. And for me, because I've woven my creative pursuits into my production business, I get more time on them, which is seems a bit unfair, but I also have to try and make money from them. And the reality is that a lot of like, I wrote my book from five o'clock in the morning through so when Clara woke up each day, so it was just rather than fitting it into the day, which was Clara's time. Yeah, my creative hours have been in the dark depths of winter mornings. Which isn't very glamorous at all. It's just the reality, like we prioritized a few things and hopefully for the rest of, you know, this year and next, Pat carves out some time for his so it's about leaning in and leaning out when, when we need to.

Alissa Hessler: 54:33

Yeah, absolutely. My partner is a photographer and through COVID, there was a lot of push pull of trying to figure out, you know, which one do you focus on which one is going to bring in the income like, how do you push pull, figure out the time for everything, and I think like having that morning ritual, too, that makes so much sense. I wondered what you think the future of farming will look like in In New Zealand, and what the challenge is that the next generation of farmers like yourself and others coming after you are going to have to face?

Unknown: 55:10

Well, there's a lot more regulation coming in since we've lived here, which has a bigger effect on bigger operators, like a vast majority of it doesn't really make any difference to us, because we're not using, like, artificial, like synthetic fertilizers. And during the winter cropping and everything, that's kind of the main things the regulations are trying to amend. So I think that'll have a bigger effect on like the dairy industry, and the bigger the bigger players. So depending on what kind of farming you're into, but you know, I guess overall, that will have a pretty big effect. And I still feel, and it might be different in the States. But I feel like we're still relatively unusual in New Zealand, and that we're not part of a legacy farming family. So the young generation that typically comes into New Zealand farming, are often coming back to a farm. And they are dealing with issues around succession planning, and personalities and different, you know, ways of doing things and knowledge systems and whatnot. But people coming in to farming fresh first generations, farmers that it doesn't feel like it's all that common, because the price of land in New Zealand is just insane. And it's becoming all the more expensive, especially in the last year because New Zealand has a policy of carbon farming. So a lot of farms are being bought up by overseas investors and companies to plant trees so that they can offset that against their carbon footprint. And so just the the mere fact of trying to find land to farm when you're new, is really, really difficult. So yeah, I think the new generation are often dealing with different concerns to perhaps what we are, because they're coming back into established farming businesses and then trying to navigate those traditions and those relationships, which is also fraught, but I do think that there is a shift occurring that some of the younger generation don't see the regulations that Pat talked about as all that overwhelming, and not that much of a cause of fear. Because they you know, it's been on the it's been on the cards for a while whether the old guard wants to admit it or not.

Alissa Hessler: 57:30

This is a question I should have asked at the very beginning. Because when you were going back to New Zealand, I just assumed that it was legacy farming that you were doing that you had grown up in kind of this farming background. What made you to decide that you were going to just start farming? What was that decision? Where was the kernel of the idea?

Unknown: 57:52

There was a legacy element as far as slack. We took over this farm from from Nikki's dad, but the asset is not in the family. Like it's at least farm. So yeah, we're just not land owners. Yeah. So my dad and uncle, career farmers, but there's no family farm to come into.

Alissa Hessler: 58:14

And that makes it extremely difficult, because then the stakes are higher.

Unknown: 58:18

Yeah. And there's, you know, there's an eight, there's an end date on the lease, which is fast approaching, which requires, you know, some yet more decisions between Pat and I, it's kind of like, what do we do next? Yeah. What

Alissa Hessler: 58:34

do you think now just looking, you know, five years into the future? Do you want to stay there? Do you think farming is something that you want to be a lifelong pursuit for you? Or where are your thoughts? Now, as far as like, what your future plans will be?

Unknown: 58:50

Still a bit undecided? To be honest with you? Yeah. Well, yeah, we're just kind of working through that at the moment that I would say, quite honestly, that the community and the place we're we're in now, even though it is where I grew up, but it's my hometown. Doesn't feel like home. And it's not, it hasn't been an easy place to establish ourselves. So yeah, that will factor into our, our conversations and decision making process in the months, six months to come. Yeah.

Alissa Hessler: 59:23

Do you have any advice for anyone who is considering either returning to their hometown or moving to another rural area, unlike things that they should do ahead of time to suss out an area to get a feel for it to see if it will feel like just from your based on your own experience? Now, looking back any advice you wish you would have known?

Unknown: 59:46

I would say spend time there in the depths of winter or the non holiday period? Yeah, I mean, we we have battled with a sense of loneliness since we've been here because we felt disconnected from like minded people. People and disconnected from our passions. So we found other things to sustain us, which is, you know, been good. But we came back because it's where my family live, we came back every summer and it was, you know, gorgeous place to holiday, because it is it's naturally it's a phenomenon, part of the world with a big lake and mountains and all the rest of it. But when the tourists are gone, and the seasonal workers are gone, and the holiday makers are gone, what you what you're left with is the core and heart of the town and the community. And so I would encourage people to, yeah, take a good hard look at who are the leaders of the community and what their values are and what they stand for. Because it's hard to go into a place and try and argue for us, you know, for space to be your true self. Because other people won't change around you why, you know, why should they what's the, what's the, you know, there the imperative to do so. And so often, it takes an enormous sacrifice of your values, if you're coming into a community that might be more conservative or more, whatever it is, and it can be really challenging, it can pop the beautiful bubble that you've imagined life on the land will be pretty quickly. So yes, I would I would do diligence is definitely my advice.

Alissa Hessler: 1:01:26

Does your lease expire in six months?

Unknown: 1:01:30

Yeah, 1818 months?

Alissa Hessler: 1:01:31

Wow. So you have a really big decision coming up. And you have now been cattle ranching for three years, is that right? For four and a half? My goodness, okay, well, I kind of want to check back in with you guys in 18 months and see where you've landed, because it's quite amazing how you have just jumped into this coming from, you know, I mean, you, musician, journalist, and you have just jumped in full speed. And it's amazing what you've learned along the way and what you've experimented with. And yeah, I'm just really excited. Do you guys have anything that you'd like to share other than your book coming out, which we'll have a link to, for the pre order anything exciting to share from either a personal or business perspective? And how can people follow your journey? Well,

Unknown: 1:02:26

the book project is our story. So and that has been a very large project for both of us, both the time commitment, and just the emotional journey to go through it. So I would love people to lean into that and to hopefully take the time to read it, they can follow what we're doing on the farm on Instagram, mostly at slow stream farm or one word. And there are links to the book available in the profile section there. And that's how also with our probably discover what we decided to do. End of the lease, I would say that the you know, the time that we've spent so far on the farm has really bedded down some of you know, our passions, even though we they are different from city life. And I don't think we will ever start you know, loving, being food producers or loving consuming lots of food. So that is always you know, something that we love sharing with people on Instagram is just not just the day to day life of what it's like on the farm. But why we do this, which is to, you know, produce this beautiful food for people. So yes, I would encourage people to follow us on Instagram, and to read the book, because that has been our focus for the last couple of months. Yeah, yes, have you? Well, to answer your question about what advice I would give other people, I'd probably say like, if you have the opportunity given to you or you really want to try something else, your best just to give it a go. Because you can always well, you know, most people can probably go back to if it doesn't work out, you can probably go back to your old occupation or city or whatever, after giving it a go for a year or two. So if you don't try it, you won't know basically like, Yeah, I think you'd regret it always, if you have a sense of wanting to live on the land or farm. It's an amazing location. It's really hard, but it's, you know, so deeply satisfying on in a lot of ways, and being you know, close to the land and soil and nature is also restorative if you take the time to immerse yourself in it. So yeah, don't don't be put off but also be practical, you know, it might not work. Especially in the age of climate change.

Alissa Hessler: 1:04:48

It's really hard and I think oftentimes people curate their lives and you're seeing farms, you know, marketed in one way but the day to day life and come lean into it new and also coming into it without, like a lot of infrastructure. Like it's so difficult. I've only met through this project I've only met one first generation ranching family that was able to make a go of it. And she was a like an entrepreneurial powerhouse before that she had had, like 11 businesses that she had started. And she kind of figured out all the ways that she could, you know, make an income off of her ranch beyond just the business itself to prop it up to get it to a point where it could just work and was so much work. So I give you guys extreme kudos. It's really, really a pleasure to reconnect with you again. I'm looking forward to what your future is for the two of you and for your daughter as well. It she's probably had an amazing time spending those like young years on the farm. It's probably been really,

Unknown: 1:05:58

yeah, well, it's been lovely to chat with you again. So thank you for the opportunity.

Alissa Hessler: 1:06:05

Thank you, Nicola and Pat for joining us on the show. Some of my key takeaways from this episode. The romanticizing of country living needs to stop. People often associate moving to the country with slowing down, when in most cases, it usually means much harder physical work. Sure the pace might slow a bit or not. But it's a struggle to figure out how to support yourself, especially when you are reliant on the land and animals as part of your survival. Although sometimes it feels like everything just keeps getting worse. There have been some really incredible shifts since COVID. The pandemic forced a lot of us to pause, tune in, ask hard questions, pivot and make changes. COVID required Nicola and Pat to stay the course and figured out new processes to make their farm work better, both for their family and for the earth. And lastly, don't waste time arguing that your way is the right way. The best way to shift perspectives and inspire change is to lead by example, experimentation and a willingness to step away from convention is required in order to find solutions to the myriads of problems facing farmers in a time of climate change. Focus your efforts on amending your own processes, and let your positive results speak for themselves. Hi, friends, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of the urban Exodus podcast. This is a listener supported program that is only made possible through your continued support. And if you haven't already, we would really love it if you'd leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or whatever service you listen on. And please recommend urban exodus to your friends. An enormous thank you to my incredible producer Simone Leon, and my amazing editor Johnny Sol, and my music man, Benjamin Thoreau, and thanks to all of you for listening. I'm Alissa Hessler and this is the urban Exodus