The physical effects of psychological trauma: with Dr. Eugene Lipov and Jamie Mustard

Is psychological trauma really just in the mind? Research suggests it isn't.

Today we’re interviewing two innovators on the front lines of life sciences and co-authors of a recent book.

Dr. Lipov has been called the “Einstein of modern anesthesiology” He’s a renowned board-certified pain specialist and a huge proponent of the stellate ganglion block, a minimally invasive procedure that has been proven effective in treating PTSD symptoms.

Jamie Mustard is an artist and a renowned strategic consultant. He is the author of the bestselling book “The Iconist: The Art and Science of Standing Out." Beginning as a child and then into adulthood he suffered years of trauma at varying levels before stumbling across Dr. Lipov and the Dual Sympathetic Reset Procedure or DSR.

Today we’re going to dive into their groundbreaking revelation that psychological trauma manifests as a physical injury that can be seen and monitored on a brain scan, and their revolutionary approach to resetting the sympathetic nervous system that has helped countless patients suffering from chronic pain, anxiety, PTSD, and other related conditions.

THE INVISIBLE MACHINE: The Startling Truth About Trauma and the Scientific Breakthrough That Can Transform Your Life [April 11, 2023]

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Transcript

Kelly Stanton: 0:17

Hello everyone and welcome to From Lab to Launch by Qualio. I'm Kelly from Qualio and your host for today. We're glad you're here. Today we're interviewing two innovators on the front lines of life sciences and co-authors of a recent book we'll talk about and link to in the show notes. Dr. Eugene Lipov has been called the Einstein of Modern Anesthesiology. He's a renowned board certified pain specialist and a huge proponent of Stella Ganglion Block, a minimally invasive procedure that has been proven effective in treating P T S D symptoms. Jamie Mustard is an artist and a renowned strategic consultant. He is the author of the bestselling book, the Iconist, the Art and Science of Standing Out. Beginning as a child and then into adulthood. He suffered years of trauma at varying levels before stumbling across Dr. Lipov and the dual sympathetic reset procedure. we're gonna dive into their groundbreaking revelation That psychological trauma manifests as a physical injury that can be seen and monitored on a brain scan, and the revolutionary approach to resetting the sympathetic nervous system that has helped countless patients suffering from chronic pain, anxiety, P T S D, and other related conditions. Let's bring them in. So we usually only have one guest on the show, but today we're excited to have both of you here. Tell us briefly about how you guys got connected and then decided to co-author this book together.

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 1:40

You want me to go. Sure. How about Gene? Alright, go. You'll do better job than I'll.

Jamie Mustard: 1:46

Um, you know, I don't know. I started to get, you know, I came, I had to overcome a lot in life literacy issues, parental abandonment from a very young age, the kind of trauma that most people don't ever come back from, quite honestly. Uh, and so at, you know what, you know, I was very motivated by. Uh, you know that if I somehow got successful, if I somehow achieved education, if I somehow had affluence rather than poverty, that these would make all my problems go away. And I found that the more I achieved and the more I was kind of getting what I wanted in life, that the discomfort I was feeling was not going away. Um, and so I started trying to figure out, uh, I started trying to look and figure out, uh, why that was, in certain ways it was getting worse because now I didn't have an excuse for it. Uh, and that's, so I started searching and through a series of fortunate events, I ended up meeting, uh, through actually a military trauma psychologist. I ended who, who I, who I shared a literary agent with. I met, uh, Dr. Lip off and, uh, transformed. That transformed my life in the way that I move through the world.

Kelly Stanton: 2:58

I love that story. Yeah. That's, um, I real, I think people, a lot of people carry these things around and then, Run into these walls, but just never connect the dots or figure out how to break through. Um, in, in that, so that just sort of fumbling around through therapeutic pathways. I mean, how did you, how did you come across that? I,

Jamie Mustard: 3:19

well, you know, six or seven years ago, for the first time in my life, I'd achieved enough that I was never willing to look back. Like the only thing that worked for me was looking forward and being in complete denial that anything was wrong with me or that anything ever happened to me. I was in total denial. The worst thing one could possibly be in my view of the world was be a victim. So I was completely lying to myself that I'd ever been victimized. Right? And so, But as I achieved and felt this great discomfort with achievement, I, I thought something's wrong. I'm not supposed to feel this way. This is, this is supposed to feel good. So, uh, I, i, uh, I went to see a therapist for the first time and she diagnosed me with, uh, complex posttraumatic stress disorder, which very much upset me. And, and I kind of laughed in her face when she said it. I mean, I just thought it was preposterous. And then she said, You know, her eyes welled up and she said, have you been listening to the stories you've been telling me and my like, BS bullshit life narrative kind of fell apart in that moment. And I like to say I started hugging the cactus. Mm-hmm. And you know, it was, it was very providential what happened right around that time. A forensic psychiatrist. And I was always leery of psychiatrists cause I thought they just drug people or you know. But he was a fan of my other work and had reached out to me. And I'd heard about Dr. Lip Hop's work, and this guy was a really renowned forensic psychiatrist who liked my other work. So I said, Hey, can you vet this for me? And he did that and he basically, you know, there's, you know, and basically what he came back with is what's the upside? What's the downside? There was pure upside, no downside, no dependency on drugs, no mitigation where I'd have to be like taking something for the rest of my life, doing yoga every day for the rest of my life. You know, like this appeared to be a reset of the fight or flight system in the body and there was no downside. So a coup a few years ago, two and a half years ago, I braved, covid. I got on a plane with eight people in the middle of Covid. Flew to Chicago. It was like a sci-fi movie, and, um, and underwent, um, the reset of the, the sympathetic nervous system.

Kelly Stanton: 5:38

Interesting. And, and so, um, just pulling from some of my own life and having been through some E M D R training, um, one question I had a little further down, but I feel like I should pull it in now, was, um, talking about what the D S R P is and how it differs from other treatments for, um, whether it's the anxiety and the, well we call it dsr. It is, you could call it DS rrp. We should bring the, we should bring the physician here for the surgery. Yes. So Dr. Lipov

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 6:07

okay, thank you. So first of all, it's not d Sr. It's not D S R P. I don't know what that is. So d sr is dual sympathetic reset. So if you don't mind, let me give you the history of terminology. Yeah. You know, it's sciencey. You can't have to be really accurate when it took sciencey stuff. Right. So lot lots talk sciencey stuff. So Stella Ganging Block has been around since 1926. It's a procedure that's been. Done by pain physicians for many years, specifically for hand pain, burning pain and other things, purpose pain and stuff like that. So in 2003, I figured out that we can use that procedure to take away hot flashes, and then I published on that. So the critique of the procedure to me was, yes, it's working, but you don't know how it works with sterile garbage. So that gave me a lot of encouragement to figure out. Why it worked for half flashes. So in reviewing a bunch of medical articles, I came across an article where I did T2 clipping in the Chest, which is a fight and flight nerves are in the chest. What's clipping, Dr. Lippa clipping is putting a metal clip on nerve to turn it off. Okay. Basically have to push the lung out of the way and put a clip on the nerve, which is pretty good size procedure. I was gonna say that's fairly invasive, right? And they found the hand sweats went away, but P T S D went away also. So I review that literature, I was like, I had no idea why that would be. So I look at the literature, it turns out the nerve sympathetic nerve here goes to the bundle of nerves in the neck and after the brain. So I treated the first patient for P T S D in 2006 and published on that in 2008. So kind of speeding it up. Then military has adopted it. I've done a number of institutions that was replicated. I had a patient that was very severe, P T S D. We did a procedure on him and usually after the procedure people feel significantly better, 10, 15 minutes. So he's looking at me 40 minutes later. It's like I'm still in a lot of trouble and I had no idea what to do at that point, cuz all I know is how to do the block. That's all that's ever been done by paying people like me. I was pretty frightened. Put it mildly. I had to change my shorts after that day. Um, but you know, almost, anyway, so before I got into P T S D Ward, I was doing procedures in, uh, Norway, they government of Norway environment to help them with healthcare treatment. So we came up with a, I learned how to do a procedure called Superior Cervical Gang Glen Block, which is the injection higher up the neck. So I, this guy was in a lot of trouble. I took him back. He was a sniper for the Marines, and we do, I did the second procedure higher up. 10 minutes later after he left. He was doing great. We followed about five years and he was fine. So I, I was scratching my head because it's never been done. I was like, why would that be? So I looked up, a book was called St. Gle Blog by James Moore, published in 56 out of Princeton, 72. Spot there is a very clear explanation. Turns out fine and flight nerves go from the chest up to the neck. At C seven, go up to the brain following vertebral artery, which is half the nerves. The other half goes up to the neck higher and goes to different part of the brain following internal carotid artery. And that is why we are doing now dsr dual sympathetic reset. We are doing two levels, seven, one, and the reason it's called dual is our best. Sympathetic because it's fighting flight system reset is because what I believe it actually happens, PTs D what PS D is they have severe trauma or multiple small traumas that activates fighting flight system, or sympathetic in sciencey terms that Jamie would say and he get stuck in that position. So if you can reset the pre trauma state, like computer, if you have a computer and you have software problems, you put a patch on, but if the hardware's broken, it's not gonna work. Right. So what we are doing here is we do the hardware reset by doing the dsr, and then we can do psychotherapy following that. That's like software patch and it seems to work best as together. So that's kinda a long answer.

Jamie Mustard: 10:27

Yeah. The way you have to look at it is, you know the book is called The Invisible Machine, right? And what the reason we call it that is you have to look at, at, we've been looking at trauma as a disorder. It's not, it's 100% a biological injury. Okay. And, um, it's, you, you could compare it to a broken leg. You can't see, there's all these incredible therapies out there from EMDR to, uh, to talk therapy, to ketamine, to psilocybin. There's all these things and, uh, but you wouldn't do physical therapy over a broken leg. And you, and, and what's so important about it also, so all he's doing is resetting the leg and then these other

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 11:09

things become far more effective. You're fixing the hardware before you attack the software. If you're trying to fix, uh, if you're trying to run software on a broken computer, it's not gonna run very well.

Jamie Mustard: 11:20

Uh, and, and also, you

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 11:22

know, the concept of a disorder is incredibly stigmatizing, right? Yes. Yeah. And, and,

Jamie Mustard: 11:28

and it's also not true, right? In, in 85 to 90% of cases when someone gets a dual sympathetic reset, um, their, their extreme symptoms are gone. They're just a person again. And what's, what's all, you know, what's important about the relationship between the dsr, the dual sympathetic reset and its origins in the slight GANGLING block, which was developed in 19 25, 19 26. Alba's been around for a hundred years, is that we know that it's safe and, and, uh, there's no, there's no side effects. There's nothing else. Uh, Uh, that exists that can give someone so much space and so much room to then better and improve their condition that is experiencing, uh, uh, fight or flight symptoms. In fact, you know, this work is really about Dr. Lip at his innovation. Where I come into this is, you know, maybe as an amplifier using art and story to amplify his

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 12:27

work,

Jamie Mustard: 12:28

but also maybe I see his work from a different perspective because where I come from, You know, when I, when we, he, when he and I met, he's been somebody, I have incredible respect for him because of how much pushback he's had over the last 20 years. Uh, how many people told him that he was wrong? Uh, Even though it's now been public, peer reviewed, Matt, you know, published in massive, you know, major peer reviewed journals. The Army studied it. The Navy studied that. Barack Obama endorsed it back in 2008. The military's probably doing 15 to 20,000 of these a year. It's been on 60 minutes. Good. You know, this is, it's begotten, very mainstream. Despite whatever pushback he's gotten, uh, the, the, he's gotten incredibly far. In 20 years, but when I first came across the work, I didn't see it in relation to the military. I didn't see it in relation to, um, first

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 13:17

responders

Jamie Mustard: 13:18

or sexual assault victims who are the biggest cohorts getting this right now? I, when I saw you, you have to look at the symptoms of what fight or flight symptoms are, as Dr. Lip hop describes it as how you would feel if you were running

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 13:29

from a tiger. Mm-hmm. If you were running from a

Jamie Mustard: 13:31

tiger, you would be anxious. You have mild paranoia as the tiger gonna be here in a second, you would've a sense of doom. The tiger's gonna, you would not be able to relax. You'd be hyper-vigilant about the tiger. You'd be hyper aroused because there's a tiger right around you. You wouldn't be able to sleep. Um, if there was a tiger chasing you, you would have a hair trigger. You'd be very reactive. Okay? Um, and in the ultimate, the ultimate form of fight or flight or flight in the military where people tend, are trained to protect is suicide the ultimate form of flight. And in the neighborhoods where I grew up, where violence is more acceptable towards each other, uh, the ultimate form of fight is violent ideation or homicide. So when I saw the, um, symptoms that, uh, the DSR affected, I didn't, I saw my, the neighborhoods where I grew up. I thought a hundred percent of people have this from low. You can get this from two ways. One is

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 14:26

a blunt force

Jamie Mustard: 14:27

trauma where amygdala sends a signal to these nerves in your neck, the select gang. Um, and you get heightened. If it's too overwhelming, you get it, it stays heightened. And, and

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 14:36

Dr. Leach can explain the sign. Yes. Jamie, if I may, can I interrupt you a second? Yes, for sure. Yeah. Uh, so let, let, let's talk about my favorite term, p dsi, that you're. Alluding to. Okay, so, so that term was developed by Dr. Frank Berg, very famous psychiatrist, came up with the term Stockholm syndrome. So when we are talking about trauma and that's why you, you got pretty much everything correct and be better than I could say, Jamie. The only thing that I think to remember is you don't need to have a hit in head blood trauma or any kind of trauma at all. You can see somebody being shot in front of you, you can get P T S D from that. So when you say P T S I, we are talking about post traumatic stress Injury. Injury means the nervous system is overactive, amygdala is overactive, and you can actually measure it. That's why it's biologic, and that's why we're working on changing the name P T S D to P PTs. I. But I just want people to think that it involves physical trauma. You don't need physical trauma. If somebody ignores you or starves you. Your brain is changing. That's what you're trying to say. Yeah. And you can actually measure, you can reverse advising the sr. That's the state. Yeah. So rather than being

Jamie Mustard: 15:48

treating something, you're fixing something. And where I was gonna go from where he was saying is blunt force trauma and extreme trauma. Typically if you have a near-death experience, you slip while going down a mountain or something and you catch yourself, your amygdala sends a signal to these nerves in your neck, and that's what jolts you into fight or flight to save your life. Okay. Now if that trauma is too great and we can explain, we can explain the science behind this, um, the system stays stuck. You never come back to baseline five hours later. Okay. The other thing that can cause it to get stuck, to go up and stay stuck, that's why it's a physical injury. You've changed your biology in your neck as an injury as if you cut yourself, right? It's an injury. You've changed it through, um, an event, uh, a bi that's measurable biologically. Um, And that now those nerves are now sending false signals to your brain. That

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 16:39

fight or flight is occurring 24

Jamie Mustard: 16:40

hours a day, 365 days a year, seven days a week. We break this all down in the book. Okay. Um, the other thing that causes it, that I think is the more prevalent cause the more, uh, Uh, the massive cause of this, people getting stuck in fight or flight. And this is where maybe I'm contributing to the conversation. I'm not the inventor. I am, I've been given the honor to help this guy, right? Uh, but where, where I think I'm contributing to the conversation is the other thing that causes this, that I think is the more predominant thing causing this. I, I believe 40 to 50% of the US and global population have this injury in their body. Um, Is, uh, uh, carrying allostatic load, long-term chronic stress,

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 17:27

long-term, extreme stress. Our, our, you know, Gabo

Jamie Mustard: 17:31

just came out of a book, uh, with a book called The Myth of Normal. It's New New York Times best seller, where he is basically saying our modern society, our modern digital, um, kind of. Artificial society, artificial boxes. We live in an artificial box. We go in another roving artificial box to go to another artificial box and work. We don't have the, all the things that mitigate against nature, the things that calm us, that, that are in line with our evolutionary biology, right? So mm-hmm. Low level chronic stress, or lo or allostatic load. Okay. Like death by a thousand cuts also can cause this system like, like what I experienced with poverty. Okay. Um, can cause this system to stay stuck. And you have, and a person that grows up in a neighborhood like me has the exact same 7, 8, 9 symptoms that of somebody coming back from Afghanistan and there is a host of physiological and autoimmune conditions that cascade. From having an overactive sympathetic nervous system

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 18:35

makes

Kelly Stanton: 18:35

sense. Uh, we, we aren't prepared biologically. For these kinds of things. Our system just sees it as flight or fight or flight. And I think, uh, yeah, that, how that cascades is, is really well, that's kind of taking all of it to the next level. Right? I mean, if we, if we start to work with other healthcare professionals to incorporate this into an overall treatment plan, right now we're looking at things a little more holistically. Would

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 19:00

you,

Jamie Mustard: 19:01

would you say? Yeah. I mean, I, I think that, you know, you know, What I would say is even the most skeptical people that I've interviewed, I've gone around the, the, the country the last two years and interviewed some of the top, you know, scientists in the world to comment on this from Steven Porges, Dr. Frank Ochberg, who coined the term Stockholm syndrome, as well as post-traumatic stress injury, P T S I, um, uh, gabo Dr. Daniel Amon. Um, I've gone around. And spoken to these guys and even, you know, and also who've been partners, but

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 19:32

also I've talking to, talked to a lot of cynical doctors who believe that this work

Jamie Mustard: 19:36

works. But it's just another modality. And what I say to them is, like, what I say when I get that pushback is, okay, well what should someone do first? Should they do MD r first? Should they do this first? And even the, the, the, the most cynical person that would say they do this. You know, I, I, I've had people that have gone through sexual abuse, uh, uh, really struggle, can really struggle with mdr, right? So there's no downside to this. There's no side effects. You, you, you're through it. 15 minute out pres safe outpatient procedure over one to two days. Um, and I think it, if it's the most important medical innovation, since when all the data comes in, since the discovery of penicillin in 1928, it dwarfs, um, the polio vaccine. If you just look at how many

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 20:22

people from die from suicide every year,

Jamie Mustard: 20:24

um, uh, compared to how many death, how many people were, whose lives were saved from, you know, Uh, taking the polio vaccine, the, um, it, it, it, when you removed it, when you reset the fight or flight system, um, the data will show that people just don't commit suicide after you do that, right? Yeah. That, you know, we think it's a disorder. We, you have to think of it like this. Back to the running from the tiger thing. Okay. If you feel like you're running from a tiger 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, and you're feeling all those things, anxiety, mild paranoia, sense of doom, hypervigilance,

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 21:01

hyper arousal, lack of sleep, hair trigger if you're feel, and then the guys that come back

Jamie Mustard: 21:05

from Afghanistan, Uh, they have ed because you can't have sex if you're running from a tiger. Mm-hmm. Cause that's the last thing that's gonna be on your mind. Okay. And you're feeling

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 21:13

that 24 hour, we're designed

Jamie Mustard: 21:15

to feel that for 30 seconds and then

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 21:17

save our life, or, you know, be

Jamie Mustard: 21:19

consumed. We're not, we're, we're not designed as human beings to live in that state. So if you feel that way, it's basically a description of what it feels like

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 21:28

before you,

Jamie Mustard: 21:29

right before you're about to die. So if you feel like you're about to, if

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 21:32

you're sitting

Jamie Mustard: 21:33

on your house watching Netflix, you know, eating cottage cheese, and you're always feeling like you're about to die, uh, you're not gonna wanna live if you're always feeling like you're about to die. And that's what that mechanism is. What's what's most interesting to me is that you can get this from distant parents. You can get this from not ha, a distant father not having your emotional needs met. So you have this math, massive swath of, of the western world, uh, that. Doesn't ever

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 22:05

associate themselves with trauma that has

Jamie Mustard: 22:08

these symptoms. They don't. They don't

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 22:10

think

Jamie Mustard: 22:10

anything ever happened to them, but they have these symptoms in just as an extreme way as somebody coming back from war or somebody growing up under the conditions that I have. But they're a plumber, a kindergarten teacher, a school principal, a yoga instructor, and so I think that's, My message is I want people to ask themselves if they have these symptoms, realize that they're, because I know, I didn't realize I was uncomfortable in my body. That's how I just thought human existence was. Yeah. Until I met Dr. Lip

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 22:38

off. Right. So you're describing

Kelly Stanton: 22:40

a lot of the challenges around this, right? Because a lot of it's, uh, stigmatized tied to mental health. Those kinds of things. Are there, are there bigger? How do we overcome that? Are there bigger clinical trials happening? Uh, yeah. Dr. Lippo, what? Let

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 22:54

me answer, well, the couple of things I'd like to comment on. Number one, as far as I would say this fight and flight over activity is adaptive from our past. Right? So the problem is we, we live in different type of environment. Mm-hmm. I was interviewed once and they were saying, well, it's not like, It's not as bad as it used to be. Being changed by Tiger. I would say it's probably much worse now because you can't even move. You're sitting here absorbing stress. What happens in your body is a fight, fight or flight. Uh, transmitters in the brain, norepinephrine increases and it stays that way. That's the problem. But as far as how do we go fourth, there are two specific plans, plus number of plans. Number one, I think Jamie's and I book is kind of beginning to talk to the layperson. So it is designed to give specific examples, but as Jamie would say, it's sciencey enough that keeps people interested. If people are really interested in the science aspect of it, uh, that's kind of obviously my job. I can give you the papers and explanation. So, so stigma of mental health is one thing. Biological proof is another. Right? That's two different, they're, so, lemme tell you what we are doing. First of all, my mother was under a care of psychiatrist when I was a surgical intern when she killed herself. So I'm very interested in that aspect of it. Um, so as far as changing it, in fact, we just have a p PSA that's being made right now. We're gonna try to distribute it as part and wide that talks about, and we should have, should we have it available in about a week. So basically it talks about the name P T S D needs to be changed to P T S I. Thankfully Dr. Arberg is still around and he's willing to help us promote that. So part the end of the PSA ends with the following. So change the name, remove the stigma, save lives. That's, that's the message. That's it. It's very simple. That's one number. Yeah. Sorry. Number two, sciences stuff. So you can say whatever you like, but what's the sciences stuff show? It was one study that was done through the military, through Fort Bragg, Tripler and Lynch. Heim in Germany. It was a reasonable study. Not the best I would say, but it was okay. And it showed some good results, but they gave, yeah, it's not, not convincing enough. Mm-hmm. One of the problem with d Sr, or S G B is that there's no way to do placebo. Right. Most of the trials people are used to, right. You take a pill, you take a sugar pill, you can't tell the difference, right? Right. When you do, when you do the block and your eye is droopy, which is coronary syndrome, you can tell the difference, right? Mm-hmm. So there's no way to do a placebo. So the conventional. Approach just doesn't work. Right? Right. So why we get around that? The only way to get around is to do advanced scanners, functional m, MRI or PET scan. There was one study done in north, uh, long Beach, California va, where they did PET scan before and after Stella eight, and they demonstrate deactivation of amygdala. Amygdala. Overactivation is considered diagnostic for PTs. D We, there was an amazing funder. They gave us enough money to SU to actually do this study the way it should be done. I designed it, but it's being done by nyu so I'm not touching that. So nyu, you know, big institution, I think it's unimpeachable. Whatever results will come back. So they doing an F M R first functional mri. We are doing other sciences stuff. We are doing the dsr, then we do the F M R after. So the idea is that we'll show convincingly was big enough of a number objectively what's happening in the brain. I think once that's done, that is gonna be, that's gonna change all the perspective because you, you can run around and say, this is real, this is not real. You know, there's debate. But if you have fml, like if somebody has a broken leg and you have a cast on, and six months later the people who was casts. Their legs healed. The ones has didn't heal. There's no place to go for critique. Right? Yeah. That's been about two years. Hopefully the data will be out and then we will have, we'll be able to do this. There's already a lot of data cuz the Army study,

Jamie Mustard: 27:11

the Navy study. But you know, to answer, I'd like to kind of, to refer back to your question, Kelly, of, you know, it's kind of, how do you know what's the resistance or how do you parse it out? The, the pri and I'm gonna answer part of it and then I'd like Dr. Libo to answer the second part of it. But the first part of that answer, it's such a great question, is the biggest barrier that he's run into. And it's hard for me to even say that because, What he's done in 20 years. Considering how, in how, just what the implications for the innovation are, how far he is gotten in in 20 years. Is astonishing. Max Plank, a Nobel laureate from the mid, from the 1940s, uh, said that, uh, medical innovation is one in funerals. You have to wait for your opponents to die. So as much as this should be as popular as Botox and latex, considering how, uh, ubiquitous it is in our society, it should be

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 28:04

as popular as lasik.

Jamie Mustard: 28:06

Uh, uh, it's still, he and what he's done in 20 years is incredible. It should, it's not. Ubiquitous. Right. And the reason for that is it's been collapsed with other modalities. When it's not other modalities, it gets collapsed with EMDR psycho, you know, and it's completely different. It's the fundamental reset that you should do first, and then those things go way, way with better. Cuz those things, there's some incredible modalities out there. Yeah. Um, so, so that's been the biggest barrier is, is it's being mixed in with, you know, Equine therapy, petting ponies, right? Mm-hmm. And when it's its own thing. And then the second thing is it's incredible to believe, you know, we, he's not going near the brain. You could scan the brain on an FMR with a, with, with an F m r i, with somebody that had distant parents. So there, there, and you would see overactivity in their amygdala. No one ever touched them. They don't think they have trauma. You could do the d s R over on them over two days, scan their brain again, and the overactivity in the amygdalas, calm down. And you'll likely see increased blood flow to the frontal cortex. Um, so that, so, uh, that's just, and we, we didn't go near the brain, we just went to these nerves in the neck that are lying to the brain. But I would like Dr. Lippo to share. I think the other biggest thing is, uh, I think a really good metaphor for why p this and the whole point of the book. Is to rip away the barriers and use art and storytelling in science to bring this to the masses, to bring this to the world, to make this a, you know, Kleenex and a Coke, something that, because if 50% of the population has it, and I could, and we, and I could show you how I can get to those numbers. That means all of us either have it or are dealing with 50 people that have it. You know, like we're surrounded by people that are, that are exhibiting these symptoms. And so, uh, I, you know, one I'd like to, I think Dr.

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 29:57

Lip Off could co Well, I'd like Dr. Liftoff to, to tell the

Jamie Mustard: 30:01

story of Sweiss, cuz I think Sweiss is a really good explanation as to why. Um, it hasn't been embraced and why we've had to write a book and, and put it in every Barnes and Noble in America to finally get this to be known in the world.

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 30:17

All right, well, the two, well, there are two answers I'd like to put in there. Number one is that, um, one of my bodies who a big professor basically said, you have a credulity problem. It's hard to believe. It's such a simple solution to such complex issue. And then people have been doing this procedure since. 1926, why did you figure it out as oppos to nobody else? That's it's credulity issue. And I gave him an answer and he go, yeah, whatever. Move on. Anyway, so Jamie brings down one of my favorite positions, kind of cautionary tale. So this is a gentleman who was born in Hungary and he in uh, 1876 I believe, was start to practice medicine, obstetrical medicine. In, uh, Vienna, which was the highlight of medical system in its day. He noticed that when women delivered babies in a hospital, the chance with death was three times higher compared to doing it at home with midwives. So he said, I don't know why it is, but it's happening. So he published on that, of course, gets ignored. Then he followed around the duck. Turns out the doctors used to dissect dead people to autopsies and run over to deliver babies. And it's day. Nobody knew about germ theory because this is before liven hook, before they could actually look in germs and stuff like that. Uh, and the belief was if anything smelled putrid, then that's how the disease were transmitted by bad smells, bad humor actually in the air.

Jamie Mustard: 31:53

Mm-hmm. In there. Air,

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 31:55

whatever. Anyway, so that was the thinking. So he published and then he goes to the doctor and said, this is the research I published on it. He wrote a book about it. He shows, well, you, what year are we? What

Jamie Mustard: 32:04

is this? Is this 17, 18th,

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 32:06

19th century? 1876, I believe. Okay. Something like that, that area. So then he go, then you think the doctors go, okay, that makes perfect sense. Now you'd be wrong on that. So what they did is they go, you're accusing us of being filthy. That is totally unacceptable. You're totally wrong. They put him in a psych ward and he was beaten to death within a month of admission in a psych ward for, for telling people to wash their hands. Yeah. Hold on. Hold, hold on. He got better. Yeah, exactly. That's precisely. Well, so then 20 years later, lister figures out German theory, like Listerine. That's all his big thing. Yeah. So after that, the medical establishment goes, oh my God, we have to wash our hands. This is, we are transmitting germs, which shouldn't be dissecting dead bodies, getting all the bugs from them and putting it in the y in, uh, women. And they're dying of fevers after they deliver babies and they termed this physician level-wise, or sh which are re pronounce it, um, savior babies cause humorously. So what I was telling Jamie when he and I met is that I'm so heavy. Number one, I'm not a psych ward. Number two, I'm glad I wasn't beaten to death in a psych ward number. And here, and actually we are getting momentum and we're actually able to hook up, you know, I'm, I'm now a medical director of Stella. We have 35 sites in United States, other countries, locations. So I think we are well on our way to bypass this poor gentleman's thing and I think we'll have a significant impact. So that's kinda my answer to

Kelly Stanton: 33:49

that. Uh, no, I love it. That's, and that's very positive cuz that's, you know, so. Evolution into the future. I mean, just continue to spread the word, get, get the, um, get it through the trials. I mean, obviously there's some element of the medical establishment who Of course, well, we're not getting right.

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 34:07

Like, hold on.

Jamie Mustard: 34:08

If

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 34:09

I, if I may, uh, Jamie, I'm sorry. Yeah. Are, are you asking what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen in our future? Is that your question? Yeah, that's where I'm going

Kelly Stanton: 34:16

with my brand. Ok.

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 34:17

Lemme gimme you an answer. Gimme an answer. I'm kinda a dreamer,

Jamie Mustard: 34:20

right? And then I wanna comment on this one.

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 34:23

Okay? Of course. But I, I think you wanna hear what I'm gonna put in the, in my dream here, first, second. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, number one, we're gonna treat a lot more people. Number two, hopefully our book is success and more people will become more cognizant of this. Number three, I just got IRB approval, like for a real, for real study. Uh, so my collaborator is ucla. University. So I believe in about a year we'll be able to prove pretty definitively that you can reverse aging by using this procedure. Lemme tell what I mean by that and how you can approve it. So if you look at the aging speed of Special forces, they age quicker than people who are not involved in this horrible battle, right? You can measure that if you look up something called Grim Age. It's a term for epigenetic clocks was designed with Dr. Harth originally, regardless, so you can take my word for it. There is a way to be able to tell how fast somebody is aging, okay? The reason you want to know that is because if you are aging faster than normal, you're going to die sooner. You can actually predict people's death by epigenetic clock. I believe our treatment reverses epi epigenetic clock's advancement. So that's kind of, I think, a near term future. Go

Jamie Mustard: 35:42

ahead, Jamie. What I, you know what I would like to say, and one of the reasons why I was incredibly excited about being on this show, because it's different than any other show we're doing in the sense that it's, it's kind of effect, it's, it's discussing advancements in life sciences through a business lens. Mm-hmm. Right? And it takes, it requires business to propagate something on a wide scale. You know, uh, in my, in, and I, and I told, uh, Dr. Lippa when we first met, that, uh, I'm not altruistic. I, I saw what this was and how important it was. Uh, and that, you know, in certain ways serves me. As an artist, you know, if you're gonna be an artist and you want to, you have to decide what you're gonna work on. Uh, are you gonna work on this thing that's important, that has ramifications all over the world, or are you just gonna go work on a pretty picture? Right. So it wasn't really altruistic for me, but was what was the deciding factor. And, and this kind of goes to the, your show, Kelly. And was the deciding factor in terms of my decision to kind of not do other work and focus on this is the fact is around three and a half years ago, about a year and a half or two years before I met, uh, Dr. Loff, um, he met, he teamed up with, uh, Sterling Partners, a multi-billion dollar private equity firm in uh, uh, Chicago to open up the Stella Center. To open up these clinics all over the United States. These are the only clinics in the world that have the, that have the, all of the protocols that Dr. Loff has. Um, uh, Uh, you know, made this 85 to 90% effective in the permanent relief of post-traumatic stress. His, uh, um, so if you wanna get this done, you don't just go and get the deal, you know, you don't just go get this anywhere, you should go to Astella Center. It lasts longer and it's far more efficacious. When I had my first conversation talking to Daniel Aon about this, um, he was very leery. And I, and I said, Daniel, you know, I really would just like you to look at the research and then if you tell me if I'm full of crap, And we were on a Zoom call and, and he was, and he said, hold on. He started looking, his mouth kind of fell open as he was talking to me. Mm-hmm. And he didn't even want to be on that call. And now he's our partner. He, okay. Uh, he said, oh my, wow. And I said what he said, uh, Jamie, this is, uh, there's a very credible study here that says this is 70% effective in the permanent re relief of, of most extreme post-traumatic stress syndromes. And I said, uh, that's an old paper's 10 years old. We're at 85 or 90 now with the modern Stella protocols. Okay. Yeah. Nice. And Daniel Amon said to me, the most famous psychiatrist in America, who's the, who's been the leader of saying that mental wellness is biological and far less mentally and disorder. And amorphous and unscientific than we think. And the data science. He's got over 200,000 brain scans in the last scans, which is a massive data set in the last 10 years. Uh, the data science has really proven him right? He looks at me through the Zoom and he says, Jamie, I said, it's 85%. He said it was the set. He said, 70. He said, Jamie, you don't understand. It's 70%. This wins the Nobel Prize. That's what we've come across here. I'll help you. And that started off, you know, a yearlong pro, uh, pro, you know, a two year partnership where he was, we were scanning our patients, the name clinics, treating them with the d sr over one to two days and scanning them less than 24 hours later. And what we saw with the forensic psychiatrists, uh, saw on those brain scans after two days would be something you would see equivalent to six months of hyperbaric. Right? So, um, So I'd like, so that's, you know, one thing, one of the things I would love for Dr. Lippo to comment on, you know, one of the things people often ask me about when we're talking about this book, the Invisible Machine, which is bringing this to pop culture, that's my contribution using it's science. It's a pop science book, like something Carl Sagan would do, or, or the China study or, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a science book that everyone can read. What's the point of keeping, uh, science from the masses, right? That we're, we're trying to bring science to the masses. Um, but one of the things that we talk about extensively in the book, and I would love for Dr. Leba to comment on this because this is one of the things that I'm probably most fascinated with, is, okay, so you have this book, the Body keeps the score. All right, well, how does the body keep the score if we're damaging the body through trauma? Even if no one touches you. What is happening in the body? What's, what's the, you know, what's, who's keeping score, what's, what's doing the damage? So one of the things that I would love for Dr. Lippa to comment on is why does having an overreactive sympathetic nervous system stuck in fight or flight for year, a year, 10 years, 20 years, what exactly does that do to the body? Does it affect, is it giving us cancer? Is it giving us autoimmune disease? Is it, you know, what is, is there a health threat? Is it giving us orthopedic problems? Is there, what are the pH physical consequences of living for 10 years with an overactive sympathetic nervous system?

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 40:56

Okay, so that, that, that's a very reasonable question. I think there is, it's a broad, it's a very broad question. So first of all, what's interesting is P T S D is heritable meaning, If you have a grandfather that was involved World War ii, the chance of the grandchild, grand daughter having ptsd, T S D is significantly higher compared to someone who doesn't have that type of grandfather, which is, to me is mind blowing. So the whole thing about epigenetic drift that we talked about, that's all from trauma, but it also has a mental change. So it is well known that somebody has P T S D. Their chance of heart attack is twice as high compared to ptsi post-traumatic stress injury. Right. I'm using, thank you. I appreciate it. Ok. Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Ptsi, somebody has ptsi that chance of developing cardiovascular problems significantly higher. Turns out that overactive sympathetic system over disregulates immune system. So that means the chance of. Number of immune related disorders like ulcerative colitis and things like that can happen. What about cancer? I'm, could you mind giving a second? Oh yes. Sure. Man, doctor? Yes. Alright, I'll shut up. Thank. We're like Martin, I,

Kelly Stanton: 42:16

I all Awesome. Let the man talk. Okay. Anyway,

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 42:19

thank

Jamie Mustard: 42:20

you. Thank

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 42:20

you, thank you. Anyway, so what happens? The reason people do not develop cancer cancerous cells happen all the time and all of us. But we have scavenging system, which is an immune system that kills the cancers. If the immune system is being suppressed by overactive sympathetic system, then the cancers can take root and grow right further. When somebody has P T S I, their norepinephrine levels in the brain increase, that's that's been measured in human beings, no question. So if the, I wrote a chapter about sexual in impact or P T S I turns out, um, norepinephrine, they could be three levels low. There's no sexual interest, optimal grade sexual interest, too much, no sexual interest. They actually too much norepinephrine, suppressive sexual interest, illicit males and sexual function. Up to 85% of men with P T S I or P T S D have sexual dysfunction. So if you put it all together, then the other thing we know is P T S I alt, uh, alter sleep cycles markedly. So DSR actually reverses that. What's interesting, the recent data shows that when somebody has a bad sleep, that leads to, um, other problems, high blood pressure, other things early death. But what's also interesting, turns out that during, there are five stages of sleep. Deep sleep is one of the stages. The most important part of sleep is deep sleep, because turns out what it does, that's one of the poisons which are developed during the day. It gets cleared out the brain. If you don't have, you never get a deep sleep. The poisons truly stay in the brain, and that's not good for the brain leads to increased chance of dementia and other things. So in in summary, Overactive sympathetic system produces cardiovascular effects. Immune function, no likely increases. Cancerous, definitely produces sexual dysfunction, definitely produces sleep dysfunction. Just a few things. Probably more.

Kelly Stanton: 44:39

No, no. And, and we're, uh, we're, we're running a bit on time here, so we'll have to start to bring this to a close. Unfortunately. I'd love to keep going, but again, I just wanna come back to this idea of, uh, you know, the holistic. Approach and how getting this out of the shadows, as you guys have described, um, bringing it more mainstream. You know, Jamie, I, not that I ever love anyone's trauma, but I love your story of overcoming that and then bringing this all together and, and really starting to use that as a platform, um, going forward to, to try to, to bring some realistic. You know, and holistic change to, I was just sitting here thinking about different friends and some of the issues I know they're experiencing physically. And I have a friend in chronic pain and, and I, she has a similar growing up story to yours, so I'm definitely gonna send her your direction, um, from a, uh, to check out the book and, and hopefully, um, thank you. Maybe look around and see what we can do to, to continue to bring that forward. Um, I guess last quick question and there's gotta be quick answers. Um, If you could go back in time, if you could go back in time and tell yourself something at the beginning of, of your career, what would you tell yourself, Jamie? Wow. I know. Quick answer.

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 45:58

Okay.

Jamie Mustard: 45:59

Uh, quick answer is, the reason I was in the position to see this in a more broad way is because I went from extreme poverty and semi literacy to. Graduating from, you know, a data school, the Stolen School of Economics in just over five years. So I went from one extreme to another, you know, the poorest people in the world, the worst circumstances in the world to the wealthiest people in the world in a very short period of time. Uh, I, I would, what, what I would tell myself is, uh, is, uh, it's biological. It's a broken leg. You can't see the, the, the mental condition like I would've started with. What's wrong with us is physical damage to our bodies that we can now, that's now completely fixable. There's no reason to live like that. And there's a thing called, the Last Quest thing I'll say is a thing called operator syndrome, which people get from having distress of war, even if they're never in a firefight. It's identical to what you'd have if you grew up in poverty. And there's a cascade of physical effects that come from it, from orthoped problems, chronic pain, whatever. So I would be only looking at biology. That's what I would be doing, not going down a rabbit hole of self-help and other things that I did in my life. Yeah. Gotcha.

Kelly Stanton: 47:11

Gotcha. Thanks for that Dr. Lip off, how about you? What would you tell yourself if you could go back in time? Um,

Dr. Eugene Lipov: 47:17

I would say state. My brother calls me BB Brother Bulldog because I'm one persistent individual. Yeah. And that basically be persistent and follow the signs where it goes and help the people, which is, I've tried to live, both of my parents were physicians, my brothers are physicians, so I honor my parents', uh, memories, especially my mother's kill herself. And just keep doing what you're doing and help as many people as you can. Hopefully everything else will work out. I love that.

Kelly Stanton: 47:52

I think, uh, I think we're gonna have to talk about maybe a part two. We'll have to revisit some of these conversations and see where you guys have made it forward. I would love it. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jamie Mustard: 48:03

This was an amazing, amazing interview. Kelly. Thank you. Really, really, thank you so much.