The Moneyball for Injuries with Dr. Phil Wagner CEO & Founder of Sparta Science

Dr. Phil Wagner is the CEO & Founder of Sparta Science, a Movement Health Intelligence company dedicated to helping the world move better.

Founded in 2014, Sparta Science applies modern data science techniques that advance industry best practices and optimize how organizations assess, understand, and improve health & well-being.

With 4 patents, several more pending, and over 20 published, peer-reviewed research studies, Sparta Science continues to advance the Movement Health technology industry.

You may not know this but musculoskeletal issues are by far the largest diagnosis in America yet get a fraction of our healthcare budget. This is exactly what Phil and his team is working on - how to optimize human movement and injury risk mitigation. Any of us who have been to physical therapy for example, can learn something new today.

Show notes:
Sparta Science website

Phil Wagner on Linkedin

Qualio website:
https://www.qualio.com/

Previous episodes:
https://www.qualio.com/from-lab-to-launch-podcast

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Music by keldez

Transcript

0:01

Hi there. Welcome to the from Lab to Launch podcast by Qualio, where we share inspiring stories from the people on the front lines of life sciences. Tune in and leave inspired to bring your life-saving products to the world.

Meg Sinclair: 0:17

Hi everyone, and welcome to From Lab to Launch by Qualio I'm your host, Meg from Qualio. Thanks for tuning in today. Before we jump in, we'd love it if you've rated the podcast and shared it with any of your science nerd friends. We know you have some. If you'd like to be on the show, please fill out the application linked in the show notes. We're grateful for all the interests that we've had lately. Okay, so today we have Dr. Phil Wagner with us. Phil is the c e o and founder of Sparta Science, a movement health intelligence company dedicated to helping the world move better. Some have called his work the Future of Sports or Moneyball for injuries. You may not know this, but musculoskeletal issues are by far the most. Diagnosed in the in, in America, yet get a fraction of our healthcare budget. This is exactly what Phil and his team are working on, how to optimize human movement and injury risk mitigation. Any of us who have been to physical therapy, for example, can learn something new today. So let's bring Phil in. Welcome to From Lab to Launch. We're glad to have you here, Phil. Thanks for coming.

Dr. Phil Wagner: 1:25

Thanks for having me, Meg.

Meg Sinclair: 1:27

Great. To get us started, would you like to tell us a little bit more about your background and how Sparta Science got started?

Dr. Phil Wagner: 1:33

Sure. Yeah. So Sparta got started. Uh, I was a, an athlete and, and injured in, in many different areas, um, by different means playing sports and um, you know, was pretty diligent about the rehab and continued to get injured and, and was really, uh, frustrated cuz wanted to be part of a team. And y you know, really wanted more information on why it was happening. You know, was there something I could be doing differently or, you know, was it just, you know, fate that I had to accept and, and ultimately, you know, started Sparta to identify a, a movement vital sign, if you will. And that's where it started to try to identify, you know, how. How do you move compared to others and what risks might exist? And, you know, it's, it's kind of evolved now into a more of a data platform of, okay, how can we take in, you know, certainly movement screens that we're doing, but also wearables and all this other information that's out there, all with this idea of helping people identify, you know, how to move with without pain, uh, and without fear. What is the current

Meg Sinclair: 2:41

state of movement health today? I think

Dr. Phil Wagner: 2:44

the current state is there's just a lot of data that's out there, a lot of sensors, a lot of information, and, and certainly a lot of, um, fads and hype of what's the best thing to do. Um, and ultimately I think we have to look deeper and we're just starting to scratch the surface, uh, at an individual level of what people actually need, uh, because there is so much variability, uh, with humans.

Meg Sinclair: 3:08

Why do you think this is such an urgent problem for today in our world?

Dr. Phil Wagner: 3:11

Yeah. The thing that excites us about movement is it, it really underlies every human condition as a cause or as a result. Um, an example, you know, the easy one being is, you know, you're an athlete and you tear your a c l, right? That's a, an issue, and you're more likely to have that issue again. But on the flip side, you know, it's, you have cardiovascular issues, you, you stop moving, right? And, and that also just reinforces this problem of obesity and other metabolic diseases. So it can be on both sides of the coin as a cause and a result. And I think that that size of a problem is really exciting for us to try to help solve That

Meg Sinclair: 3:51

is exciting. Um, what does that big data and machine learning look like in health performance?

Dr. Phil Wagner: 3:57

Yeah, I think, you know, the big key is that there is so much variability, uh, with humans and, and so basing it off small studies or, you know, small groups, um, just isn't enough. And so being able to capture a lot of different information, store it, and ultimately start building. What's called clusters or groupings, um, based on, you know, both injury and performance needs. That's where, you know, the data science techniques become really important cuz you have to gather and store a lot of information, but then you actually have to start building models to segment people, um, according to what they need. But then you've got a second problem of once those people start doing things that they need, they're gonna respond differently. You know? So how are you also tracking that and monitoring that over time? That's really

Meg Sinclair: 4:48

exciting. Um, why do you think technology or treatments that maybe have worked in research kind of fail in the real life, and how can they be applied better, maybe?

Dr. Phil Wagner: 4:58

Yeah, yeah. A lot of times, you know, research is limited by how many subjects you can recruit to be in the study, and then you've got subjects dropping out and, uh, the duration of the study is, is limited, you know? And so I think one of the things we've seen is. You know, with wearables and, and other sensor and, and new data, um, you know, it kind of opens up in, in a more open source fashion, you know, all this type of information. I mean, Apple's running cardiovascular studies on 30,000 people, right? And, and your, your typical lab study doesn't have that kind of scale, uh, to access that money people. Um, so I think that's really kind of the opportunity that we're able to see that. You know, traditional research, at least in a clinical lab setting, isn't able to accommodate. Um, but it is kind of the building block of, you know, what metrics and, you know, can be looked at at more scale. Fascinating.

Meg Sinclair: 5:59

Yeah. Like that at scale and that. Larger reach, it seems like it's gonna have a bigger impact faster.

Dr. Phil Wagner: 6:07

Yeah, and and a lot of it is, I think the similarities when we talk about movement and exercise, it's very similar to pharmaceuticals, you know, and that prescriptions don't work a hundred percent of the time. You have to do these large scale studies to see, okay, how does the drugs impact people? And then how does it change over time? There's, you know, tolerance that develops, right? And you've gotta change medications and add medications, delete medications, and, and movement. Exercise is no different.

Meg Sinclair: 6:35

Interesting. And someone argue that injuries are inevitable in our life, but how can a typical cold person mitigate injury risk, or even predict it?

Dr. Phil Wagner: 6:45

Yeah, I mean it's a, it's a contentious term, injury prevention, you know, in the, in the strict sense, no one really can prevent injuries. I mean, at least, you know, if, if you just lay in bed all day and don't move, you know, you're probably okay in the short term. Um, but yeah, it's, injury prevention is, is probably an unachievable goal, but injury mitigation, you use that word as is probably more realistic. Injury reduction. You know, and I think we talk about prediction a lot of times it all comes down to the definition of the terms. Um, people think prediction means guarantee, um, but prediction is, you know, more of an odds game, you know? Right. We just talked about thunderstorms rolling in and it was a clear day this morning. Yeah, right. You know, the weather prediction may have been a clear day. But thunderstorms can roll in, right? So the odds of it were low, but it still happened. And the same thing with injuries, you know, and predictions. It's the same way. It's, Hey, here are the odds, the best chance to reduce that risk. But it's not a guarantee, you know, all we're trying to do is work towards, you know, the best options that can, you know, identify that risk from happening. Yeah,

Meg Sinclair: 8:03

I, my dad is a longtime marathon runner and, uh, longtime runner and even since I was a kid, has a very specific gate from all his running. So this conversation really resonates with me and like how much. This could have informed his whole running career and how much he could maybe move better. Um, you know, it's really fascinating.

Dr. Phil Wagner: 8:26

Um, yeah. And even now, right? If let's say he's 60, 70 years old, you can't say, okay, a 70 year old male needs this because one 70 year old male has a history of marathon running. Mm-hmm. The other may not. Right. So they're gonna respond very differently to their needs. Yeah.

Meg Sinclair: 8:43

Um, what has surprised you or what obstacles have you faced, um, from your research, going from the lab or maybe the field in this case, um, for Sparta science and your patients and your patents?

Dr. Phil Wagner: 8:55

Yeah, I think the, you know, one of the challenges is change is hard, um, particularly in risk averse. Industries like healthcare. Right. You know, it's, it's, so change is scary. Right? And, and certainly from a practitioner's standpoint, we're trained as physicians to do no harm, right? So there's also has to be a built in conservativeness, you know, as you go about your job. So, you know, I think that's a tricky balance. That's, you know, how do you, how do you be both, um, you know, promoting health, but also promoting innovation. Like we can't always do the same things. So we're gonna fail, you know? But we have to be comfortable with that, failing at a safe and acceptable level. So I think the surprise has been, you know, that people opt more than not to just try to keep the status quo, you know? But you know, the reality is the world and humans and all of us are constantly changing and that therefore we have to change, uh, the approach, the strategy, the tactics along with it. Yeah,

Meg Sinclair: 9:59

I think that's great advice for anyone, you know, wanting to be a disruptor out there in the healthcare field. Like Yeah. Lean into the change.

Dr. Phil Wagner: 10:08

Yeah, and I think one of my favorite quotes is that innovation isn't about invention. It's about adoption. You know, cuz coming up with the right idea and a great tool, that's actually far easier than getting the adoption, at least at scale of that tool or that system. Yeah, so true.

Meg Sinclair: 10:27

Um, Can you tell us a little about, about your recent contract with the US Air Force? I'm sure several of our founder listeners would be interested in how you approached your go-to-market strategy, um, in distributing to the government and working with

Dr. Phil Wagner: 10:39

government. Yeah, the government, um, certainly provides a, a great scalable approach to human beings and, and is, is reflective really of. The general population as a whole. People are coming from all over the country, different health backgrounds, um, different educational backgrounds, socioeconomic, so it really is a nice kind of microcosm of the society. And so approaching that is, um, has been helpful for us because there's also a lot of different problems. One of the problems in research we're doing is around traumatic brain injury. Um, and how does that affect. How you move, because there's a lot of research showing that if you have a concussion, you're actually more at risk for a musculoskeletal injury. On the flip side, when you tear your acl, you actually damage a part of your brain. So there are these interlocking pieces behind the brain and the body, and so that research we're doing with the Air Force around traumatic brain injuries is, you know, pretty, pretty exciting for us. You know, on the other end. Our recent contract, one of the more recent ones is around postpartum, right? And so how do we help, you know, individuals move better after childbirth, right? Because there's, there's obviously some trauma that occurs there and, you know, people want to get back to their job and how do you do that safely and effectively? And so there's so many opportunities, uh, that through this Air Force research funded program that allows us to make discoveries that really apply to the whole population. It applies

Meg Sinclair: 12:16

to me. I had struggles after my last pregnancy, after I went to physical therapy after my last pregnancy. So that resonates with me there as well. Um, right. Yeah. Right. Amazing. It, it seems very applicable to almost everyone, your research.

Dr. Phil Wagner: 12:29

So Yes, we all move. It's exciting. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Meg Sinclair: 12:32

Great. Um, so switching gears a little bit back to you. What advice or lesson would you share with a friend who is starting company in life sciences today?

Dr. Phil Wagner: 12:42

Yeah, I think it, uh, I think the, the biggest advice I have is, is, you know, there's gotta be a pretty strong level of commitment and conviction, um, because, you know, healthcare does not move quickly and there's a lot of different layers, stakeholders, right? Everything from practitioners all the way up to business executives and they each have their own perspectives and goals within those areas. And how do you. Coalesce those together, um, towards a, towards a common goal. Um, so, you know, I think there's two routes. There's the consumer route and then there's the B2B or the business route, you know, and so the business route that we've taken by nature has a lot of different stakeholders that have to be involved in the decision. It's not just one stakeholder. And so there has to be a thoughtful, layered approach about how you talk to each one, cuz they have different. Needs, desires and perspectives, right? So being aware, kind of eyes open, going into it, you know, choosing between that consumer or the business route that they both have challenges. The business route is the complexities of an organization. You know, the challenge of the consumer route is there's a, an entertainment or a fad piece, if you will, and you've, you've obviously gotta defend yourself against the shiny new thing, you know, and the consumer side of things. Perfect. That's

Meg Sinclair: 14:12

great advice, knowing your audience. That's great advice. Yes, yes. Um, if you could go back to the start of your career and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be? Knowing what you know now?

Dr. Phil Wagner: 14:24

Yeah. I think it actually would be pretty similar to the advice I give somebody. It's, it's going in knowing that. You know, if you're choosing this, this B2B business route within healthcare innovation, that there has to be a wide awareness that everybody doesn't want to hear the same thing, even within the same organization. And a lot of times you're, you're, you're the counselor sometimes between those of like, Hey, this is what this group said. This is what this group said. You know, we can solve problems with the same approach. And, and they're not at odds. Right? And so how can we, you know, I, I would be telling myself to be patient, but also be aware that, um, there's not gonna be a singular message for each organization. Yeah.

Meg Sinclair: 15:13

Tailored, yes. Communication. I like that. Yeah. I like that. Um, And then thinking about your athletic career, knowing what you know now about movement, what would you think you'd do different about your athletic career? Maybe?

Dr. Phil Wagner: 15:25

Yeah, it certainly would be lifting less heavy. Um, you know, I think, you know, when I was an athlete, more of a competing athlete 20, 30 years ago, I think a lot of, a lot of the numbers were just weights, right? Or running times, right? So if, if the measure of movement was weight, right, well then. We should be lifting more weight, right. More right. Or if it's running time, you should be running faster. Faster, right? Yeah. Always faster, right? But the body is not this, you know, uh, piece of, uh, material that doesn't have a breaking point, right? There's, there's ultimately a breaking point mentally as well as physically. And so introducing qualitative measures. That are also numerical, um, is, is an important piece that I would, you know, have taught myself earlier. You know, because moving more weight, running faster doesn't mean you're moving better. What it means is you're moving more weight or you're running faster. And so having that kind of perspective, I think would've been, uh, a lot less painful physically. Having known that. Hmm.

Meg Sinclair: 16:37

Hindsight's always

Dr. Phil Wagner: 16:38

2020, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm 45 years old and I'm getting a hip replacement. Right. So that, that can't be a, like, you know, that's a sign of, you know, how much wear and tear goes on when you're chasing singular things that are purely quantitative. Yeah.

Meg Sinclair: 16:54

And avoiding one of those myself. So, um, it's fine. I'm happy to be talking to you today. Um, And for our last question, um, it's more of a fun one we like to ask our guests. If we ran into the, at the bookstore like Barnes and Noble, in which section would we find you?

Dr. Phil Wagner: 17:13

Yeah, I think most of the books I read are, are audio tapes at this point. Um, just cuz you know, getting up and moving around, you know, and walking has been been great to think. Most of the, most of the books that I listen to and, and would read are. Are are more around soft skills, um, you know, leadership, uh, you know, being one or, or, you know, relationships, um, and productivity hacks. You know, how can, how can I basically be more productive so I can have more time, you know, with friends, with family, you know, and, and not be, you know, continuing to try to fill the day with things that are just purely work related.

Meg Sinclair: 17:58

Perfect. Well, I will be coming to you for productivity hacks and how to, uh, lengthen my ski season and ski career. Um, yeah. So that I can stay healthy and maximize on all my ski days here in Colorado. Um, so thanks Phil. Um, so thank you so much again for joining us here at Lab to Launch by Qualio. Where can our listeners go to follow along and connect with you and learn more about Sparta Sciences?

Dr. Phil Wagner: 18:22

Yeah, probably the best places are website, sparta science.com, and we have. All sorts of resources on their blog and, and, uh, other learning areas where folks can kind of learn how movement health relates to their overall quality of life. Terrific.

Meg Sinclair: 18:36

We'll get all that resources in the show notes for our listeners. Thanks so much, Phil.

Dr. Phil Wagner: 18:41

Thank you.