Aissa Hillebrand, Reese Fuller Are Tackling a Big Assignment

When Aissa Hillebrand ‘27 and Reese Fuller ‘27 sat down with Crossings in fall of 2023, they were fresh off their first CDSP gathered session. They recently reconvened for a chat about how the year went and what it’s like being a seminarian today. 

“If it looked like anything, it'd look like my desk right now,” Fuller said. 

“Good point … a mess, yet I know where everything is,” Hillebrand added.

Transcript

Kyle Oliver: This is Kyle Oliver at Church Divinity School of the Pacific, and I'm here with Aissa Hillebrand, a second-year student from the Diocese of Long Island. Hi, Aissa. 

Aissa Hillebrand: Hi, Kyle. 

Kyle: Thanks for being with us. Also with Reese Fuller, a second-year student from the Diocese of Western Louisiana. Hello, Reese. 

Reese Fuller: Hey, Kyle. How are you? 

Kyle: I'm good, thanks. Thank you both for being with us. Let me set this up before we launch into our conversation. Both of you were so kind as to participate last year in a conversation like this. Listeners to the show may have read shortened transcripts of those conversations in Crossings, CDSP's magazine, but we never got the podcast episodes that corresponded to those interviews published in a timely way for boring internal reasons. 

As we were getting ready to publish them very late, I was thinking back on my seminary experience and thinking, "Wow, I sure changed a whole lot in my first year." Maybe that wouldn't be super fair to either of these folks to publish that a whole year later. We had, the three of us, some conversation and decided that we would skip publishing those episodes and instead have a one year later conversation with the three of us. You'll get how that works. 

Without further ado, I want to just jump right in. I asked you about a year ago what drew you to CDSP and in different ways, you both spoke about having had this call to ordained ministry for a really long time and the hybrid model and other specifics of CDSP's program, finally making it possible for you to pursue that call and answer that call in this particular way. 

I'd like to fast forward a year, and I'm wondering what you've appreciated about that model after living into it for a year  or maybe what you might still be struggling with in the model if you're comfortable exploring that as well. Let's start with Aissa first and then Reese. Aissa, what's this first year been like? 

Aissa: Well, it's been very interesting. First, thanks so much, Kyle. It's nice to be here again. I think that the things that I appreciate about the model at this point is first and foremost the relationships that I've made in my cohort. It has truly been life-changing. It has given me a different perspective about ministry among colleagues and peers and also the friendships that have evolved and will forever be in the midst of the things in my life. 

That's one of the things I do appreciate about the flexibility. We have connections outside of our regular classes. I think that the other thing is this sense of change. There's been lots and lots of change. I can speak for myself, but I feel like I'm coming into a time and space within the CDSP experience that there'll be no other cohort that will experience what we are going through at this point with the change that's happening, and all good. 

Yet it gives me a different perspective of looking at transitions and change, how I'm dealing with it, what the community, as in my cohort, is dealing with it. I think one of the things that I often have to check myself on, or I really could struggle with is this to-do list about checking in with myself, because I can get when you're in a model that's flexible and supportive in so many ways, it's because your life or my life is full. It's very full. 

I have family, I work full-time, I have a community, I'm doing ministry within a local parish. All of that, to say that it's intense at times. I often have to check in with myself to say, "Okay, am I attentive to how I'm feeling mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically?" It's not, how can I say it? It's not something that I can pass up. I can't overlook that piece of it. It's part of the things that I need to do to take care of myself but that, I think, comes with the "flexibility", I use that word very lightly, of things. 

Kyle: [laughs] There's access potentially, in this new model, but that doesn't grant you infinite time or bandwidth or anything like that. That makes a lot of sense. As you said, there's a lot of change happening at CDSP in the midst of all this, and we're doing our best to communicate about that, et cetera, but we're also asking you all to roll with all of that change, and it's a lot. That makes a lot of sense to me. Reese, how about you? 

Reese: I think it'd be wise for us to acknowledge that there's a lot of change in the church and the world as well. In a lot of ways, we're living out our ministry in some ways. I think that Aissa, everything you just said, ditto. I would completely agree with it. This has allowed me to continue pursuing my ministry, which is my family, my community, my church, my job. It's allowed me to continue pursuing that but I also think that it's been a struggle. It's a robust program. 

One of the great myths about online learning is that oh, you just click into the Internet and it's taken care of. These relationships that we have to form face to face, that's what makes it hybrid, is that we're having to meet with one another and reconnect with one another on a routine basis so that this can happen. Otherwise, it could easily fall into yes, you're just checking boxes, but I assure you there's no box checking going on. 

There's a lot of deep work that's happening, and a lot of us are making sacrifices to do it, but we're very appreciative, and I know I'm appreciative of having a space to be able to do that because I don't know how else I could pursue a calling that's pretty much, I don't want to use the word nag, but it's been there my entire life. I've never seen how that's possible. It's a struggle, but I'm also very thankful for it at the same time. 

Kyle: This is a follow-up question for either of you, for folks who may not be living this hybrid study life a little bit. You both talked about the intensity of it. You both talked about relationships. You both talked about the rigor of the program. What does it look like to you? Is there a moment of studying, a moment of connecting with a classmate, a moment of having some particular insight that would illustrate some of that for us? Does that question make sense? 

Reese: You generally pray all the time for God to put more minutes in the day. 

Aissa: [laughs] 

Reese: If it looked like anything, it'd look like my desk right now, which is, it's a lot. I think you're always trying to figure out you can't really compartmentalize your life, but you're trying to make sure that you have to stay on top of the work, or the work will stay on top of you. It's just like anything. I think we have to make these intentional efforts, too, to actually do these things as well. We have to carve out time for one another in this virtual environment as well. 

Aissa: I think you hit on a good point, which is that it's like my desk, which is a mess, yet I know where everything is. It also feels at times as though I said this at the ends when we met in summer intensive, which is like, this past year feels like one big, fat assignment. The entire year was like one big assignment. When I look back, most of us took anywhere from 22 to 26 credits in one year. 

I'm surprised. [chuckles] I'm surprised that we were actually able to do that and still really create deep connections and relationships with one another and with the faculty. It feels as though I'm always like, I'm driving home and I'm thinking about, "Okay, when am I going to carve out this reading? The kids have swim practice. I have to take care of this." It's almost like it's a blanket. [laughs] It's always kind of you're covered in-- you're in it. You're in it at all times. It's like the water that you're swimming in. There's no, unfortunately, compartmentalization of this. It just feels like one big fat assignment. 

Kyle: I like that image of the desk too, because it makes me think in a couple of years, God willing, and the people consenting and all the rest, y'all might have desks or different desks or desks in different places or whatever corresponding to these sites of priestly ministry. I'm imagining there's the part of the desk that's about the community as it currently exists, and there's the part of the desk that's the outreach and evangelism. 

In some ways, I can't help but wonder whether this kind of multi-streamed, multi-whatever reality that y'all are living now, maybe that's what ministry looks like anyway. I wonder, but that's the image that came to me. I'm thinking about desks that I've worked at over the years, and that's a nice icon, I think, for this idea we've been exploring. Anything else anyone wants to say about that? 

Reese: Yes, I do. I think you're right. Everything in a desk gets rearranged somehow, some ways, some shape or form eventually. I think that what's so intriguing to me about this program is that we're not waiting around to figure out how to fix it. We're trying to fix it now, and we're trying to address it now. I guess the better thing to say is we're trying to address it now because what tomorrow holds, who knows? This is what God's given us right now, and this is what we all have. That, to me, is the real beauty of it. 

I think that's the really beautiful thing about this is that the world is changing. The church is changing. We are changing. There has never been a point in history when that has not been happening. Why don't we just go ahead and all acknowledge it, and try to figure out how best we can do this 

 we're trying to adapt as quickly as our world is adapting, while at the same time honoring who we are as God's children. That's tricky stuff, but it's beautiful. 

Aissa: I would say also that this whole conversation about formation online and hybrid, and how you get formed as a seminarian in this space. Back to the community, back to the cohort. In every single intensive, every time I've seen my cohort, there has been a gathering of sorts. It was almost like we were coming back to center. After whatever experience we were having in the class during the day, it was like a debrief. 

It was a coming back to center, almost like a coming back to the church, Christ. This sense of groundedness that the community itself, in this case, these 11 people have really solidified for this formation to take place, and it's really intentional. We may not be aware of the intentionality in the moment of that, but every single day, during these two weeks of intense coursework, every single day we would meet, come and center, discuss, pour, cry, upset, angry, whatever it may be, and then get up again, and do it again with the same type of energizing excitement. [chuckles] It would happen every single time that we met. 

 It can be done. It is being done, and I would not change it for the world. The people that are in this community with me on this road with me are really important for the formation part, and that's key. 

I don't know, how else do you form a seminarian, if not in community? Our community is very strong, and that level of encouragement that we each give each other is wonderful and beautiful, and exactly what we need. 

Kyle: Well, thank you both. It's beautiful and it really resonates. In our last conversation, I did something a little unfair, and after just a few weeks plugged into the system, I said, "What are the big questions you're sitting with?" Of course, you each had questions you were chewing on, but I'd love to revisit this issue of your ongoing curiosity a whole year later more intensives in more online courses in however many various engagements with your classmates and your professors, all the rest. What questions are nagging at you [chuckles] at this point in your program? Let's start with Reese this time. 

Reese: Well, the good news is I've answered all my questions, so we can just move right along to the next question. 

Kyle: All right. 

Reese: Now in all seriousness, the one question that I really struggle with a lot in my own personal life and in my studies as well is where's the line between God's will and humanity's will? When I say human's will, sometimes I'm even talking about the church specifically, and it's something I really wrestle with, and it's something I really struggle with, and that's why I'm really happy to be taking the theology class this year because you read church history and there's a lot to be happy about, but there's a lot to be very concerned about. 

The question becomes where's the line between what God wants for us as his children, and that space where others are simply doing as they please in the name of God? That, to me, is really tricky. It's really dangerous, and it's frightening. It's something I think about a lot. I don't think that I'm getting closer to answering this, and I'm quite fine with it. 

I'm getting probably more comfortable with my unanswered questions than I've ever been in my life which is a good place to be at because they just kind of keep popping up, but that's one I still keep going back and forth with, particularly looking at church history, studying the Old Testament and the New Testament, and moving into our theology classes this year. That's the one that's just sitting around right on my forehead, really. 

Kyle: I like that point about there's a whole lot of ambiguity here and maybe part of the formation is learning to be more tolerant of it. Aissa how about you? 

Aissa: I have so many questions. 

[laughter] 

Aissa: I have so many questions. This first year, I had to really continually get back to what is my purpose? What is my intention? What am I being called to do? It was lots of deep conversations about continually asking God, "Why am I here at this place in this time?" [laughs] Like, "What would you have me do here?" Trying to really carve out space for myself in this process. Not get wrapped up with other people's expectations of me, or what things should be, or how I should be working, or what this-- really just muting that outside conversation and noise either conjured up in my own head or conversations from other people and just stay grounded because it can be intense. 

There's a lot of expectations in this work, and I don't have all the answers. It becomes almost like, "Okay, sit down for a second, Aissa. Just chill and don't get ahead of yourself." Just taking a step back and grounding myself. I think that that's the pull or the nag. 

Kyle: That makes a lot of sense. I think it's hard not to lose yourself and it's hard, maybe I'll speak for myself. I found it hard to remember that all this change in my concept of God didn't invalidate my relationship with God heretofore. Kyle: All right. We spoke last year about how you might be thinking about ministry, and new ways, or encountering these creative or experimental kinds of ministries that might be inspiring you. Aissa, you spoke about your connection to Godly play. Reese, you talked about rethinking in the school where you were serving, rethinking the community's orientation to community service. 

Y'all have been in this process of becoming for a whole nother year now. I'm curious if either of those distinctive ministries that you were pondering this time last year, has your ongoing formation changed your orientation to either of those questions and or is there some new thing that you've encountered in the last year that if I asked you the question today, you'd say, "Oh yes, I want to talk about this cool new thing that I heard so and so is doing in this community, I want to tell you about that." I'll leave it super open and go back to Aissa for your reflections. 

Aissa: Sure. Thank you. I have to say it's completely changed. It's on its head changed. I find myself looking at ministries that are intentional about supporting clergy and seminarians, and the work inside and outside of the pulpit. I find myself really pulled to that type of work, particularly because I'm in a place of constant change and transformation. There's been some areas where I believe there could be some support a little bit more for those who are going through the same process. 

With new ministries, or things that come up for me, particularly this past year have come up for me, this past year, there's so much that is chaotic and out of control, so to speak, disappointments and joys. What it means to navigate that in this time is important to how we are formed, so to speak, or move into new ministries. I don't think that you can disconnect any part of you in this work, although sometimes you are being asked to do that. 

I find myself being pulled into ministries, or thinking about encountering some insights about new ministries that are supportive to this process of formation, process of supporting clergy and work, and ministries surrounding that. That's a little bit of what has pivoted a bit for me. 

 what I'm thinking of is how the relationships that we've developed in our cohort. I would say those relationships have helped me rethink my community service dilemma. We'll just call it that. My day gig is a lay chaplain for an Episcopal Diocesan Day school. One of the things I've been thinking about is how to rethink community service. What have we done in the past? How do we do it differently? 

My background for the past 15 years has been in teaching, so I want to plan. I want to compare models. I want a plan. I want curriculum. I want all this stuff lined out so that it does not work, and we find out what plan B is. What I'm slowly finding out, what's dawning on me is that it doesn't really matter what plan I come up with. It doesn't really matter if we do an hours-based model. It doesn't matter where we go. It doesn't matter what we do as long as we do it together, and we do it outside of ourselves. 

Within the past week, I've had kids approaching me about, "I want to do this, and how do we do this?" Which has not been the case. Part of me is in the back of my head going, "What's the plan?" The other part of me is going, "Who cares what the plan is?" This is what we're doing. We're building relationships. We're fostering relationships. I don't know if I would have been receptive to this idea if it had not been for the relationships I've been forming in this cohort, because there's quite clearly sometimes when we're trying to get things done in a particular manner, or we have work to do, but ultimately it's about the relationships that we're forming with one another. 

We can argue about what Amos really meant, or we can argue about what's happening in the book of Ruth. The reality is it's how we do it with one another, and it's how we're engaging with one another. That, to me, has been transformational. Putting the relationship first instead of the plan. The plan will follow from the relationship, and if it doesn't follow the relationship is what we're supposed to be doing anyway, isn't it? 

 Let's push out in some new directions potentially. I'm curious what you've learned about God, or faith, or yourself in the past year that has most surprised you. Reese, do you want to kick us off with that? 

Reese: Wow. Reese: I've really been learning how to let go of my own intentions in order to hopefully hear what God is calling me to do clearer. What I mean by that is I find that I get dead set on, "This is what I need to do, that's what I need to do. I need to do this, I need to do that. When I get caught up in all of that, it's very hard for me to hear God calling me. I know he is doing it all the time, but it gets in my way. 

I have found that my own personal faith is becoming less heady and more heart and hopefully more of my own being. In other words, I find myself thinking less about faith, and more being amazed by the simple things that I have taken for granted, or have just simply not acknowledged. 

Kyle: How about you Aissa? 

Aissa: I have to say that I am so surprised that I made it through the first year. 

[laughter] 

Aissa: I'm so surprised. I got to tell you, I look on my transcript at least once a month and I'm like, "Wow, you did all that. You finished all those classes. Look at that, and did them well." I have to continually remind myself of the potential and the call that God has placed on my life. I truly believe that is one of the things this year, has surprised me the most. Like, "You did it Aissa. I'm really proud of you." 

Kyle: Nice. Well, why don't we wrap up with this question? What are you most looking forward to in the next year or two? That could be a course, that could be some chance to take a break at some point along the way. I don't want to put any-- no limits on what you might be looking forward to but I'm curious what's got you excited looking forward? Aissa, let's go back to you to start. 

Aissa: I'm looking forward to getting started. I have to say that it was a beautiful welcomed space that we had this past summer. We finished the summer intensive and we had a nice intentional break, with no readings or just assignments. That was just a breath of fresh air, to be honest with you. It was really beautiful and nice for myself, for my family. I'm really excited about getting back into the rhythm of it all. There's something to say about a break too because then you have to rev up again and create systems and routines, but I would definitely prefer that. 

I feel well-rested and clear-minded to take on this new semester in a different way.  How about you Reese? 

Reese:  I agree with you, Aissa, having that time off in the summer to actually just take a break and to step back and look at what has been done and what lies ahead is really interesting because there were times last year that it seemed insurmountable. Reese: As nerdy as this sounds, I'm really looking forward to theology. I got a lot of questions. I'm not sure how many answers I'm going to be given in this class, but I've got some questions. 

Kyle: I so appreciate the ways that both of you have been willing to share from an authentic place of what is messy and hard about this process and also what is joyful.  I am really grateful for you taking some time to reflect on what this first year has been like and where things are heading. I wish you all the best in the semester ahead. Thanks for being here. 

Aissa: Thank you so much, Kyle. It's been lots of fun. Thank you. 

Reese: Thanks for having us.