Another Mans Shoes
Interviews with fellow military veterans and adventurers about their experiences of war, the lows and times of hardship, joining them on their journey and how this has shaped their lives in the most extraordinary way. Comedy moments, dark humour and witty banter.
Another Mans Shoes
A Soldier’s Story: From Special Forces to Mental Health Advocacy - Alan Shebaro - S1E7
How does a former US Special Forces soldier transform his battlefield experience into support for disabled veterans? Join us as we sit down with Professor Alan Shabaro, who takes us from his unique childhood across Saudi Arabia, Italy, Germany, and Austria to his pivotal moment of joining the military after a year of snowboarding adventures. Alan's journey is packed with riveting tales, including the challenging Special Forces selection process, intense SERE training, and deployment experiences in Iraq, culminating in a heartfelt discussion about the mental health challenges faced by combat veterans.
Alan's path from a mechanic working on first-generation Humvees to becoming a Special Forces weapon sergeant is nothing short of inspiring. Following the life-altering events of 9/11, Alan made the tough decision between pursuing a professional MMA career and trying out for Special Forces. Hear about the rigorous small unit tactics course, SERE training, and his humbling encounter with Vietnam POWs. Alan shares his operational experiences with the third and fifth Special Forces groups in Iraq, detailing the relentless mission tempo and collaborative efforts with international forces.
Taking a heartfelt turn, Alan opens up about the mental health struggles faced by many veterans, including his own battles with PTSD, and his decision to demobilize for long-term well-being. Discover the impactful work of the We Defy Foundation, co-founded by Alan to support disabled veterans through adaptive jiu-jitsu training. Learn about the success stories and global reach of the foundation, underscoring the importance of addressing mental health openly. Stay connected with Alan's journey and find out how you can support the We Defy Foundation's mission to bring hope to veterans worldwide.
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Welcome to another episode of Another Man's Shoes. We've got a great episode for you today. We're actually being joined by Professor Alan Shabaro, former US Special Forces soldier. He's joining us all the way from America and he's going to take us through his journey from joining the military being one of the first Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu soldiers in the US Army and one of the first completely in the US Special Forces through to leaving and where his experiences have taken him and now what he does to help other veterans now and the wider community to engage in the sport. So, alan, thanks for coming on the show and we welcome you on.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:So I suppose we've got to start and say you're our first guest that we've had over from the america, from the united states. Um, whereabouts is it that you're? You're based over there uh, the great republic of texas so is texas actually a part of america, or is that his whole own country in its own right?
Speaker 2:um well, we did secede um from the united states States in the mid-1800s, but it only lasted a few years. But some people still hold on to that, so it's more of a pride thing than anything else.
Speaker 1:What's it like over there at the moment, with obviously everything that's going on in the world and the pandemic? Are you feeling it?
Speaker 2:Out of all the states, I think and again I'm not sure how the other ones have been responding, but especially just lately the been a bit more combative against the regulations, to California especially.
Speaker 2:I think pretty much most of the United States is is doing, uh, doing their part, of course, but um, to to a realistic extent, um, you cannot shut down all the businesses, um, and expect them to do well after you know. So we got to think about, you know as it's going on now. Yes, the the safety precautions, Um, but then again, you know as it's going on now, yes, the safety precautions, but then again, you know, I think the majority of the mentality is everyone understands the risk and the risk associated with maintaining your business and with being a patron, as a customer. You understand it, you accept it and you can move on, versus having the state dictate, no, you're on full lockdown, you cannot leave, you cannot, you know, run your business. So I think I got kind of lucky and I think the people in Texas got kind of lucky with the way they're handling it.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's a huge state, isn't it Texas? And I imagine you're fairly well spread apart yes there's a lot of space there, so it is not like the UK. We're all sort of living on top of each other, which doesn't help. Yeah, so take us back to childhood. Are you Texas born and bred, and that's where you've always been?
Speaker 2:no, actually I was raised overseas, so my father was a Department of Defense civilian and he was a comptroller for the Army and the Navy, so we got to go places that most just regular military dependents didn't go. So I lived in Saudi Arabia for about five years, italy for about seven, germany, five and um went to school in Austria as well, and when I was uh um 19 is when I moved back to the States I was 18 at the time actually and um, I just did a little bit of uh. So on States, most people when they graduate high school, they, they backpack around Europe. My thing was I'm just going to backpack around the U S you know kind of thing.
Speaker 2:At the time I was really big into snowboarding, so, having to see all the pictures and snowboard magazines and everything, when I was really into it, it was Um. When I was really into it, it was uh. It became a quick bucket list type thing where I need to go and and actually go to these different uh mountains to go snowboarding, and so that was the first thing I did. And wanted to go to California and wanted to go to, uh, washington state, colorado, um, and so that's what I did actually after I graduated high school, I, uh, I went, uh around the West coast and um, and got to spend a year or a season actually down in Bear Valley, which is so not Big Bear, but Bear Valley is like right next to Tahoe, so up there and it was great. Now then I went to go visit my parents, went to a air show and, uh, talked to a recruiter and the next day I was in the recruitment office and talking about signing up.
Speaker 1:So a little bit impulsive and so what's one of the biggest sort of memories you've got as, uh, sort of growing up? Is there anything that's really stuck with you, like places that you went and experienced?
Speaker 2:you know, I mean some of the biggest things I got to experience, like, for example, and uh, when the wall came down, um, that was a huge thing. I was actually in germany when that happened, so I wasn't in berlin, but, um, you could pretty much feel the energy all throughout the entire country. Um, and then being able to see like something as magnificent as that and being able to experience it, you know firsthand being there in Germany and feeling like the entire, the entire, you know social aspect, and you know it changed drastically, so I got to be able to see that. That's something I've always appreciated.
Speaker 1:Um, there's so many different things that really can't list off once.
Speaker 2:I mean, I mean I got my personal memories with my best friend, you know, just going snowboarding, you know, you know, midnight we used to climb the mountain and you know, be the first ones to lay tracks. You know, those are the. Those are the those personal memories that you know, you know, for me are, you know, the with some of the most, um, precious memories that I have. But uh, yeah, I mean someone that it's something that everyone can kind of understand, relate to is definitely that's. That's one of the biggest ones, you know for sure and growing up.
Speaker 2:You're always a outdoorsman, very adventurous sort of, into your exercise no, actually, um, I was really big into uh skateboarding before that. Um, it's just when moved from italy to germany, it was uh, um, very, um, um, very cold and it rained a lot, so it was very limited. So that's how I got into snowboarding, because the, the, uh, the seasons were much longer. Um, I was literally at the base of the mountain in Germany, so there really was uh, um again, as fortunate as I could possibly be for something that you know like snowboarding, um, but honestly didn't even I really didn't care, I mean because I was more aerodynamic as a little guy anyway. So I was uh, walking around about, I don't know, maybe uh, 65, 70 kilos. You know, in high school, should I at first tournament I remember it being at 22 years old and I weighed in 147 pounds.
Speaker 2:I didn't even get into weightlifting and anything like that until actually after my first enlistment. I just got tired of being small. I started lifting. Then I started lifting then and you know, I started lifting actually for jiu-jitsu, and then it just became something. I just wanted to change myself, my entire identity. I just didn't want to be, you know, skeletor or the orange on a toothpick guy anymore. So I really spent a lot of time on. You know lifting.
Speaker 1:The American bases. I've been on. The gym facilities are fantastic. They really incredible. Really put some money into that. Yeah, you could be in the middle of a war especially lately that's great though, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's great for mental health, it's great for fitness, and it's what you need absolutely. You can't just be sitting around trying to make your own homemade gym, which is, yeah, pretty much what we ended up with, you know, a couple of truck tires and a mop handle, trying to put it all together. So did you? Um, when did you join the military then? What year was that?
Speaker 2:um 1995, september 5th, um, that's when I reported a boot camp and um. So my initial MOS military occupational specialty was a lightweight vehicle mechanic. So it's kind of an odd story. I went in and I was told, hey, don't worry about it, you know, you get this job and when you get there you can tell them. You know, because I went in initially wanting to be an interpreter. I spoke a few languages, you know, having lived overseas, so I was going to go in as an interpreter and, you know, end up back in Vicenza so I could, you know, I know the area, I spoke the language and I could go back to snowboarding, which is something I really wanted to do, you know. Back to, you know, snowboarding, which is something I really wanted to do. Well, when the recruiter actually had me going and filling out the paperwork, he said yeah, just go ahead and fill this out in.
Speaker 2:You know, the, the interpreter school, I guess, is across the street and it's not gonna have just they'll sign you right over, which was the biggest freaking lie ever. So I ended up as a lightweight vehicle mechanic for the first uh, few years of my enlistment and, um, it was all on things that, um, you know, the, the cut v, the first, uh, generational humvee, the deuce and a half, all these vehicles that uh, they retired within like five, six years. So it was pretty much like a, uh, you know, uh, an obsolete MOS. You know the things I was being trained on. So I don't really feel that there was much going on. Um, this was a mid and a nineties. So there, you know, uh, bosnia and um, uh, kosovo world like dying down. You know Somalia was kind of, you know history at that set. You know, in that sense, where it was. You know Somalia was kind of you know history at that set. You know in that sense where it was. You know seven, eight years ago, before my time type thing, and uh, there wasn't any conflicts going on.
Speaker 2:So I got out, um, and uh, I mean, I jumped into reserves for the benefits and for the school and um, ended up, uh, just going to school uh, marcos Texas, you know, southwest Texas State University and while I was actually at Fort Hood is when I started getting into jujitsu. So that was a conflict of interest. I wanted to get my education but at the same time still wanted to train, and that I'd really gotten addicted to it. So I ended up transferring schools up to Dallas and that's how I ended up in this area, so I could train with the only one black belt in the entire state. So nowadays there's black belts, you can drive two miles. You'll find another black belt. Back in the day there was literally one for the entire state of Texas. So pickings were slim. So I decided to move up here so I could actually continue to train jiu-jitsu and continue my education.
Speaker 1:What was it you were studying at the time?
Speaker 2:International relations and foreign affairs.
Speaker 1:Okay, have you put that into practice? Since no, maybe you've put it into practice with an M4.
Speaker 2:Pretty much that diplomacy method seems a bit more my style, I guess, but it was a lot had to do with understanding the different branches of government in foreign countries, their policies to different branches of government in foreign countries, their policies. And by the time I was kind of getting to the weeds of things is after 9-11 kicked off and I dropped out of school so I could actually go back in active duty. I was very impulsive. I shouldn't have dropped out because it actually took me a couple of years to make the transfer over so I could go back in because I was in a reserve contract. But well, I made the best of it while I was there and you know I was trying to wait on. You know I kept training and I was actually building up a lot of training and well, basically I had gone down to while I was waiting to go back in active duty to try out for Special Forces, I was training a lot with guys here locally Travis Luter, and at the time we're about the same size, so I started getting up to 190, 200 pounds and so there was one guy that was the manager for Travis Luter and Matt Serra and myself, so there's only three people that he was taking on. And so I had to make the decision if I wanted to go active duty and try out for Special Forces, which is a complete unknown, or I could take my chances and go pro in MMA, which again is a complete unknown.
Speaker 2:I could take my chances and go pro in MMA, which again is a complete unknown. So after months and months of waiting to get a selection date, to get an opportunity to go try out, I literally got an offer saying, okay, well, we have, you know, this lined up for you. You know you got about six weeks to make your decision and I still hadn't heard from my unit about a date. So I almost made the decision just, you know, drop that and just go pro and MMA. And it wasn't something for me. And in the end, but uh, I literally within like a couple of weeks after I got that news, I got a notice from my unit saying, okay, we got you in for a spring selection date and so I was ecstatic about that and yeah, so I decided to not go pro in MMA and to actually go and try out for SF Fantastic.
Speaker 1:So within the US forces, in the British military, if you want to go SF, SAS, SBS, what have you? You have to be a regular soldier first and you've got your parent unit, and so then you go and try to become a member of the SAS and if you fail you end up going back to your parent unit. Is that the same in the US, or can you join directly from civi street or from the reserves and go sf?
Speaker 2:so they do have a um. They, or at least they did. I'm not sure if they still do um, but they had a program called uh, the 18 x-ray program, um, which you can go in as a possibility to make it on there. And so it's a great recruiting tool because the ones that don't make it, they put them at the Army's needs. So if they're short on cooks, you know, if they're short on infantry, whatever it might be, they have to sign a document saying well, if I don't make it through SF then I have to go to whatever the Army needs me to do for the next four years.
Speaker 2:But if they do make it, I mean it's a phenomenal program because they literally get to go through basic AIT as infantry. They get to go through like a pre-RASP, which is the Ranger Assessment and Selection Program, and then they get to go to RASP and then Ranger School. Once they get done with Ranger School they get to come to a pre-selection called SOPC, which is a Special Operations Preparatory Course, and then they get to go to selection. So they really set it up for them to actually make it. So it's not something where in this program they want you to fail because it looks good on numbers and they want you to succeed, but again, the person has to be able and willing to do so.
Speaker 2:So for the guys that made it, especially the earlier program I thought it was great. Where I started seeing it starting to fall apart is when they were looking at trying to make more numbers and it showed what kind of quality was coming out when you're trying to mass produce special operations, and so they dialed it down drastically after that. I'm not sure where the program is now, but when I left that that was the they realized that you can't mass produce special operations and, uh, they started dialing it down, a lot down and making things a lot more stringent and so forth, so they cleaned it up I think that's a wise choice and I think that's something that happened over here.
Speaker 1:I know there was a couple of uh years ago the the sbs tried a direct entry route where you could be a Royal Marine Commando, finish training and then go straight on to SBS selection and what they soon realised was it was causing the guys more injuries because they'd had such intense build-up and also they lacked that operational experience where they'd worked within their troops, within their squadrons, and built that camaraderie and they'd learnt the mistakes. They'd been the young guy on the ground and built himself up. So I'm not sure they do that over here anymore either. So I suppose you went straight through on selection. What's that involve?
Speaker 2:um.
Speaker 2:So selection is um, is very much a gut check, but it's also classified, it's um, let's call it a gentleman's course. So a gentleman's course is um kind of like if you go to ranger school from day one they're yelling at you, they're beating you down, they're they're just on your ass the entire time. Um, for selection, it's entirely different, um, with the exception of the first two days. So the first two days what they're trying to do is just weed you out, um, and they collect a lot of numbers on on those couple of days and it's basically just kind of like flush out the people that won't make it like in the next few days, and um, after that it's literally um on you. Um, so the instructors are you know. Basically they give you the instruction you know and get all your, your instructions from the whiteboard and you know, do what you can um. So the whiteboard was basically all our task condition and standards of what we're doing, uh, while we're there. So we had and it changed at two in the morning, you know where we had like some night off or whatever it is, and so you always had somebody up, you know, checking the board every 15 minutes, um, because it might be you know three o'clock formation or you have like 20 minutes to get all your stuff to be at a certain you know rendezvous point, you know, before we do another exercise or. But um, yeah, the first week was a lot of a lot of PT. They had your PT tests and um, they go through like, um, uh, a quick land nav course, um, like how to do so. And uh, the second week is very much individual Um and they have, you know, a lot of your, your, your. From the time that you get there after the first four days, you have a 65 pound uh ruck on your back that is pretty much attached to your back the entire time that you're there, um, and then you have to have water and so forth, but they have uh, it doesn't matter what the event might be, they have guys with scales that are there to make sure that you're always carrying your load and um. So the uh. The second week has a lot to do with uh, individual um tasks and uh doing uh, like uh, orient orienteering, which is that the land navigation courses, um, so you have just a.
Speaker 2:You know the star course was definitely one of the man makers, I guess, in that you had eight points that you had to find within eight hours and, excuse me, a set number of hours that they wouldn't disclose. I finished mine in eight. So I don't know how good that was, but I made it. So I was happy, um, and so you have four points they have to get at night, four points they have to get in the daytime, and they range, so they, you know your first point could be who knows um, you know, an easy one, like six kilometers away, who made it? But then the second one, for me at least, was 24 kilometers away. So I had a very first. You know, an easy one, like six kilometers away, made it. But then the second one, for me at least, was 24 kilometers away. So I had a very first. You know, the very first one was very easy. I'm like I got this smoke, you know, and then I had to go, like the opposite end of the course, you know, to get my other point, and then all the way back, you know, and then some for the next one. So that was, it was definitely a kick in the ding, ding, tell you that.
Speaker 2:And um, you're constantly, constantly rocking Um, and then the uh, the last week is team week where you get um, you get paired up in a in a team of uh, usually between 10 to 12, and you have a team-oriented uh event. For example, you'll have like one in the morning where um you'll have to find a certain location which is seven to eight, you know kilometers away, uh, you have two hours to complete the event and then um, which usually includes, you know a movement of you know eight to ten kilometers, and then you have to you know a movement of you know eight to 10 kilometers, and then you have to make you know the, the seven kilometer, seven, eight kilometer trek back and then you know the, the. The events varied between like a down pilot where you had like a, yeah, a certain amount of time to get a, and of course it was a. You know giant duffel bag with a full of sand, a you know giant duffel bag with uh full of sand, and you know just heavy as hell um, like 250 pounds Um, and you had to carry them, you know certain distance and make them safe, and so forth. Uh, you know the three wheel Jeep um the barrel carry, which is, you know, one of those 55 gallon um um barrels that you had to figure out. You know we have like ropes and you know a couple of tires and you know some um, some steel, uh rods to to try to make something. To make it, you know, for your time, um, it wasn't just the events, it's how you handled the events, which was a big thing. So you know there was sometimes, you know the team fights. You know, and instructors are always there, the cadre is always there. They're just, you know, in the woodlands, you know, watching you and writing down notes. So that's what I mean by a gentleman's course is that they never interfered.
Speaker 2:If you failed, it was you, because you're, you know what you did and, um, one of the most, uh, unique parts about selection for special forces in the army was that, uh, you actually can make it the entire three weeks and they're called 21 day non-selects. So you had guys that, um, let's say you're a complete stud. You made it out there. You smoked the ruts, you smoked the landmine, your PT test was off the charts, but you're a complete fucking asshole and everybody can't stand you. You got peered out, that's it. Your face doesn't fit, you're out Because if you think about the primary job, which is, uh, foreign internal defense, um, you're out in remote areas, you know, for extended period of time with the same group of people.
Speaker 2:You have to be able to play well with others, but now you're just setting yourself up in the mission up for failure, um, so I thought that was a great way of of you know making sure that you know you didn't have a complete asshole. That's that's with you from the get-go. I thought that was a great way of of you know making sure that you know you didn't have a complete asshole. That's that's with you from the get-go. I thought that was a great way of doing it how long is the the overall course after this?
Speaker 1:when you finish this three-week period, you then go on to further weapons training, your jumps course, if you're not already powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, um, so after selection. So selection allows you to attend the qualification course. So then you have SFQC, which is a special forces qualification course. So they shuffle these around sometimes, but for when I went, it was selection. And then we had small unit tactics, which everyone I talked to that's been to ranger school was saying, yeah, it's a ranger school, with one more hour of sleep and one more MRE. So it was. It was nine weeks long, had everything to do with everything infantry related. So you know ambushes, you know laying down L shapes and you name it. So it was nine weeks of, uh, small unit tactics. And then, uh, right after that was seer was survival, evasion, resistance and escape. Um, which to me, honestly, was probably one of the best and worst schools I've ever been to, um, but truly was something you never wanted to miss. So always, if anyone gets a chance to do that, I highly recommend it.
Speaker 2:But it was basically you know how to survive, you know survival school, of course, and then basically what they had is create an entire situation where you are captured and you get to use, you know the things that you actually learned. So it's a difference between being captured by you know the, you know a government that you know we actually allies with, or ones that we don't have any type of association with, but as an established government, versus being captured by terrorists. And you know how you actually have to go about. You know, you know, staying alive, basically, and coming back with honor is always the the main objective. So, and then you end up in a, you know, in a situation where you have to. In your mind, what they're telling you is that you have to make it to the border, to safety, and you have people that are, you know from this, you know, foreign nation, that are, you know at war with, and they're after you. And this is how well that the training is actually done.
Speaker 2:There's a state prison excuse me, that's um, that wasn't more than like 60 or 70 miles away, and what they did was they coordinated with the uh SF and so the people that were in the prison, they had their search teams out there looking and we were supposed to be the inmates, and so they had escaped inmates. So they're getting their training on trying to track us down. We're being told that, hey, this is the military that's tracking us down and they're going to take you to a POW camp. So it was, you know, phenomenal coordination between you know the two um entities that really made it phenomenal. Training. So we had dog teams, we had helicopters overhead. I mean, if no one told us, you know, or if someone excuse me if someone actually told us, hey, this is live, you would really think so, you know, because they really got that far into it. Um, but, uh, you end, you end up in, everyone ends up at the, at the camp at the end and everyone gets, you know, gets the experience going through you know the little POW camp that you got there.
Speaker 2:But you tend to realize one of the the most, um, hard-hitting moments that I had, emotional as well was enduring through all that. And when you're going through it, if you've, you know it's, it's uh, you know being struck and you know being having to. You know, you know break the ice and and stand in. You know freezing cold water. You know as they humiliate you if I mean, these are things that they're doing every day and, um, you know so by the time you actually freed, you have, you know, definitely a sense of like, you know freedom in a sense, but uh, um, that that goes away in an instant when you have, uh, when they brought in a four or five actual pows from like vietnam and when they start telling their stories about how they were in for you know their pows for like three, four or five years, you know you're putting your head down in shame, going shit. I just did five days and I'm fucking complaining. And this guy did five years, you know, and you know I. Just your mouth shuts really fast and you realize, like, and you have a entirely new respect for POWs. You know it's insane. So you know the. The amount that I gained out of that course itself was incredible.
Speaker 2:Um, moving from SEER, um, you have your uh, your next school is your military occupational specialty. So for me it was, um, I was a special forces weapon sergeant. So you learn, um, everything there is about weapons. You know foreign, domestic weapons, uh, tactics, strategies, all the way up to even mortar. Fire is so much fun. I hardly even realized that I was actually in a job Getting paid for that. It was man dream come true.
Speaker 2:So after weapons training comes shit language training, which is probably the hardest part about it. My opinion was just because you have, you know, eight hours a day, six days a week of you know. You know special operations, language training, and. And then you had the. You know the actual language training that we had. And then you had the um. You know the actual language training that we had. Um. So there's two different tests that we had to take and they shortened up the language training so we literally had um six months to actually learn what most people in the past had 18 months to do. And um, so they that's why they did it six days a week instead of five days a week and um, they lowered the standards a little bit, but it was crazy amount of stress because you don't want to get that far and then fail language, you know, and that's why you get kicked out of the Q course, you know. So that's a kick in the nuts, but it was. It was literally so much to to get in all at once. I mean that was stress.
Speaker 2:And right after language training is Robin Sage. So Robin Sage is a three-week culmination exercise where they put everything that you did and everything that your team has done in a mock simulated mission. So the great part about this is that you have these. It's like a tri-county area that has been supporting this program for generations like three generations now and I didn't realize, like, how embedded it was until we were actually in this one area where we had to get, um, we're trying to gather intelligence.
Speaker 2:So we're in civilian clothes and, um, I literally get pulled over and I'm like shit, I don't. I don't have my driver's license or anything with me. I'm in this course and, uh, so I'm starting to panic. I'm like I can't get kicked out of this course. You know what I mean? You know they're gonna take me in, they're gonna arrest me on that. I don't have a driver's license, I don't have any proof. You know that I'm in the military. So this lady comes and knocks on the door. You know the, uh, the officer, and I was just like shit. And somebody is sitting with me. I'm like, just let, just, let me try to figure this out. So, before I even got to say anything, she was like papers please. So I was like wait, what? No one ever says papers, man, what? And I was trying to figure them out. She looks down. She was like papers please. You're in Pineland, where are your papers? I'm like, oh, that I got.
Speaker 2:So she was actually involved in it, you know, so we had the police department, fire department, we had pretty much everybody in these communities. Um, it was incredible how much support you know was to make this like realistic. Um, so they, they really, you know, put a lot into it and it was it turned out, you know really well, um, and so it's uh, yeah, that was the uh.
Speaker 1:Once you make it through robin sage, then yeah, that's the end of it so you get to the end of the course and you get awarded your greenberry is it you? So that's a proud moment, that's a pinnacle in many people's life it is absolutely um.
Speaker 2:So for me, um, I went in as a uh, uh 18, charlie as an engineer and um, it was a one job initially, I just not that I wasn't, you know, to the extent of what they do um, like building and everything else was completely out of like nothing. I don't mean to sound like a shit, but I just wasn't interested in that. I wanted to do the weapon stuff, but I was in that. So, you know, I tried to make the best out of it halfway through the course, though on the engineer course I actually didn't make it and I failed one of my tests and so I was out. Luckily enough, I actually had somebody that I knew. A bunch of people came out of woodworks that I knew and they wrote a recommendation letters for me to stay in the course. So I got really lucky with that um managed to stay in and uh, you know my um. So the caveat to that was I had to be a. Uh.
Speaker 2:Troops are major for all the rest of the Q course that I was in, and that's something you just don't want, because on top of everything you have to do, you have to make sure everyone's there for formation. You have to make sure everyone's there for formation. You have to make sure that everyone's filled out their freaking leave forms. They got to take leave and if someone gets arrested, guess what? Your happy ass is getting up there calling the cadre meeting them up at the police station. So all this extra stress, but I took it in a heartbeat just because they would let me stay in the course. But out of that I managed to get the uh, the leadership award for my class um, which was, you know, on top of now, just making it being awarded, you know, a leadership leadership award, um, and making it was just a. You know, I was on cloud nine, yeah, absolutely so what year was this?
Speaker 1:I graduated in uh may of 2007 so that was when it was really starting to heat up overseas and iraq's going full tilt, afghanistan starting to get quite noisy over there, so maybe you're on your back-to-back tours and getting out in the sandpit yeah.
Speaker 2:So, um, I, literally, when I graduated, um, I was actually in the national guard and uh, it was the only way I could actually get over there while being on a reserve contract. So I ended up going and uh, back to the national guard unit saying, hey thanks, guys got an offer to go active duty and uh, turned in my paperwork there, came back packed up, moved over um the last of my things and um, shit, I signed into um group one day. Uh, the next day I was, you know battalion signing in and then I was in iraq. So I met my team down range and uh, I didn't get a a full tour. The first one, it was a little bit over half and uh, you know, it was a great experience though because, yeah, that was, uh, it was a lot of noise going off in solder city, which was like the wild, wild west back then.
Speaker 1:It was Tell us what sort of ops were you involved in over there. What was the general thing to do?
Speaker 2:So the unit I ended up with was 3rd Special Forces Group, sif. So the SIF is Commanders and Extremis Force. So the way that works is that each group has one company that's a SIF, and the SIF is they have two primary um job specifications, which is a hostage rescue, and direct action um, which uh encompassed within uh, the, the counterterrorism and counterinsurgency. The counterterrorism and counterinsurgency. These are the only units that. So we got most of our. Well, we pretty much followed JSOC, as everyone from third group was going to Afghanistan, my company was going to Iraq and so we were kind of that. In between we were doing unilateral missions with CAG constantly and all the rotations side by side, and we were running missions with the. So we stood up and trained the ICTF and the Iraqi commandos. So that was kind of like a fifth special force group and third special forces group where the guys that stood, those guys up and they, they ended up being, you know, phenomenal.
Speaker 2:But so each sift, uh, because that was one of the things that was kind of not disappointed in by any means, but it would have been nice to be able to, to do like, uh, like in this 12 strong, you know, you know riding around in horses and that's something I never got to do, but you know not saying that. Uh, you know I regretted writing, but it definitely would have been nice when I get to ride horses. You know not saying that. Uh, you know I regretted writing, but it definitely would have been nice when I get to ride horses. You know, at least get some pictures.
Speaker 1:You know riding horses you're a texan, so I suppose that's in your blood. Yeah, um, did you do much with the british? Say again, did you do much with multinational, with the british out there, or did you very much um?
Speaker 2:so we actually uh not very much. Um. I, I did um when we were in um, what's that? There was the, the polish grob, and, uh, the australian ses was out there, um, but that was only a you know a couple of days, um, you know, working with them, and then um other than that it was, it was mainly us forces and iraqi special operations forces, um, so we'd never get to really do um a lot of uh um, you know our missions with the uh. You know any other special operations from other countries?
Speaker 1:not much. It's like things like task force black there. They were quite big at the time doing a lot of the door kick in and out every night.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was us.
Speaker 1:I can imagine you could kick so the so the um, the way that the colors work.
Speaker 2:So like green is CAG, um, green is CAG, blue is DevGuru, which is like the SEAL Team 6, and brown was the Special Operations Aviation Regiment, and then you had orange, which was Intel, and black was the CIF. So you know that was, that was us.
Speaker 1:I mean, that was a busy time yes, very much, it was just relentless. You know, so did you. How many tours of iraq did you get in? Three, and what's the tour for you guys? Say again, how long is a tour for for you?
Speaker 2:um, so my longest one was five months, um, but it's an average between four, four and a half months, um, and the reason being is for the tempo, um, so like, for example, in 2000, I didn't have any recordings like how many I did in 2007, but in 2008 we were we're actually we're into crit and uh Tashi area to do missions and um, so the first two months um, I marked on tick marks every time we went out the wire and, uh, we did doing 53 missions in 60 days, so the tempo was very high. Um, the only time that we actually didn't go out is when it had like really bad sandstorms where we couldn't have a rotary wing or fixed wing flying above us, you know, any type of drones that would uh provide security on top and uh, and that was pretty much about it, and I, and the other time that we had, I mean, we're uh had a lot, a lot of work to do so, but it was because the temple was so high that our, that our rotations were short.
Speaker 1:It was you just, I mean talking about the sandstorms, then I've never experienced anything like those that sang absolutely everywhere.
Speaker 2:It seemed like it was, you know, at times. You woke up and it was like like it was dark, almost like nighttime, and it was like three o'clock in the afternoon. I mean that's how thick it got sometimes. I mean didn't maintain it that way the whole time, but I mean, going by, you know, 10, 15 seconds at a time gets really dark and then you know it keeps moving around. It was crazy.
Speaker 1:There was a huge storm in in 03, when we also went across the border for the original uh, I think you guys called it Iraqi freedom, we called it optelic. The whole war stopped for a couple of days because the sandstorm was that bad. Nothing could move, nothing was living in that. It was some great photos. So did you get Afghanistan in, or was it mainly Iraq?
Speaker 2:Never got to go Afghanistan. You know, Iraq was everything.
Speaker 1:When you finished with Iraq, you then came back to the States and decided to demobilize, go back to civilian street.
Speaker 2:So there was a couple of things like during the rotations. It wasn't just one thing in particular, it was a few things. One of them was realizing that there was guys that had been on the team way longer than me, way more experienced, having seven, eight rotations in, and it was guys that I was definitely looking up to. But at the same time there was like one of the guys was four years younger than me and he looked like he was already in his 50s, you know, hunched over, walking around. You know, and here's a perfect example One of the guys that was my first senior, walker Booth. He was a third generation Green Beret and made a wicked smart, made his E8 in like 12 years, which is just unheard of, took over his own team, was a phenomenal leader, was a phenomenal operator. And there was, you know, he had, you know, in Halo, wall locker jumps is just everything that you have, you know, in jumping from that height. And he would still be doing all those wallocker jumps with his team and, um, I mean it was sad because he said there's that, you know, the the pinnacle moment and you know, and a green beret's life is, you know, when he gets to take his team and, uh, he had already been dealing with back problems but refused to go and um, to go get checked out. And um, he was just living on cocktails, you know. You know Flexerol, percocet, um, oxycodone, popping three or four of those, you know, one daytime, you know, or in the mornings, one in the afternoon, maybe some at night to go to sleep. And that was his life that he got used to. The meds, at the time especially, were easy to come by. I mean, they're pretty much easy to come by now, but they're just always readily available. So he would rather, you know, deal with the pain and come to find out was a broken back, rather than give up his team.
Speaker 2:So I didn't want to. I didn't want to become that type of person where everything revolved around doing a job and then at the risk of not just my physical health, my mental health as well, you know, damaged for years to come, after possibly the rest of my life. I mean you get thrown out of a Humvee after an ID, I mean that that limp isn't going away, you know there's. There's a lot of different things, you know. That I'm dealing with now, just from the short time in.
Speaker 2:But I can't imagine staying in for, you know, in that same pace for and, which was a pace that I loved. So I knew I would get like sucked into it, but I mean I'll be in single, no wife, no kids. I absolutely loved deploying. You know, I was just into it. But having so many close calls within such a short timeframe and then realizing that there was things I still wanted to do was what me came to the final realization. I'm like well, you know, I can't, I don't need to walk away in shame. I've, I've, I've put in my time, you know, as a, as a Patriot, and and put in my time, and then some, you know, so I've, I've done my part and, um, you know, I've done my part with pride and and just no sense. And you know, feeling ashamed of, you know, bowing out racially, and that's what I ended up doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's very wise. I think you you've sort of seen that too many people sit there and they sit back and they, they bury their head in the sand and they're broken. I think you know you've got a family, you've got a future career, you've got the rest of your life to live. You can't be a slave drive just to one particular career. So have you struggled since you've come out with mental health and with physical problems as a result of your service?
Speaker 2:A lot, a lot of them was just being receptive to like the old solution of taking Zoloft and everything else. But, uh, uh, the the PTSD that I was dealing with was, um, it wasn't for anything that I'd done down range, because I didn't have any regrets or any remorse that I, uh, I knew that everything I did had to be done. Um, where mine came from was you know where mine came from was you know having an understanding that I couldn't have changed the outcome of some of the guys you know lives that they've lost their lives out there and I've kind of hung onto it was you know how is it that you know a guy that has the least amount of experience on the team or even in the company at the time, you know can walk away unscathed? And then you have guys that were, you know, years, much more experienced, you know not make it. Um, and then I started kind of, you know, going into whirlwind with you know the meds and everything else going you know well, is that because it was my fault that I failed to do something that I not? Um, you know, if I would have taken two steps to the left instead of three to the right, would they still be here and those thoughts start to consume you. And then you know, on top of that, you actually have, you know, you know, for me it was the stress of starting a new business and I was so focused into trying to get that done and still dealing with this initially and not realizing what it was, I was just putting it aside, I was sleeping off. I had already been on Ambien for years. It just got worse and worse. I was taking two Ambien, three, four Benadryl, six pack of beer, just to get three, four hours tonight, you know, sleep, and I was perfectly content if that happened. You know, at least I got some sleep. But, um, I think, uh, it was definitely a realization. Um, um, well, um, so one of the the the big things that I realized was I was kind of turned out numb was, um, it was, it's coming back from. Um, I was actually living at the school at the time, but um, I just I didn't want to see it fail and have that much money. But uh, it was something I was, you know, set on doing. So it was an industrial area.
Speaker 2:I'm just driving down, this white pickup comes up behind me and comes up right up to my bumper and slows back down right up to my bumper, slows it back down, and I was going about 10 miles over the speed limit, so I wasn't going too slow. This guy was just fucking with me and and so I wasn't going too slow. This guy was just fucking with me and, um, I had no idea, uh, why or anything, so I wasn't gonna play. And uh, so he did it three, four times. So I just sped up and I turned over into the next turn, uh, to the next block and turned around real fast and, um, you know, I did a press check on my gun make sure that you know it was loaded and took one, you know, step one foot out the truck and opened the door. These guys turned into the road where I was at. They stopped in front of me. The only thing I was looking for was just seeing who's going to get it first, who's going to step out, then the other person's getting it second. That's it. That was the only thing I was thinking. They were there for you know, a few seconds. They decided to bolt out and so they, you know, they backed up and pulled away.
Speaker 2:You know, and I just remember the whole time, that was actually downrange any type of fire foot we get into or close call and have that. You know, you know that adrenaline that kind of goes through your hands, you kind of trying to shake that off. I had that like for years and years going down range. And then on this one, I mean just about to shoot a couple of people. I'm not, I'm not a worm, I'm here in Texas and I just didn't care. I honestly didn't. I didn't have that adrenaline dump. It was just I put about as much emotion into it as you know, my grocery bag ripping or anything. I mean there was nothing, and so that was my first indication that something was off. I just didn't have any emotion for that within yourself.
Speaker 1:Did you actually recognize? You thought, hang on a minute, this isn't right. You know I should be feeling something here. I'm just about to pop a couple of blokes and, um, I'm not bothered about it, not at all. And all this anger is built up and it's quite a common feeling. A lot of guys you speak to you've got ptsd who are having problems. It is the anger and it's almost that lack of empathy that they've got. So, yeah, what's it? What's it like in the us? Over in the uk, there's been a real lack of help for veterans and mental health ptsd. It's brushed under the carpet or they they try and medicate it. You know people don't talk about it. It's kind of like a slap around the head. You know, just get on with your life. And this last couple of years it does feel like there's been a marked change where people are talking about it. It's not something to be embarrassed about, you know, go and get help for it. And because there's been a lot of suicides and totally unnecessary.
Speaker 2:How have the US sort of dealt with it? Have you got a better track record than us? I'm not sure about that, but one thing I did realize was that something did have to be done. My way of contributing back to that was 2015. Started a nonprofit, you know we Defy Foundation, and it was well.
Speaker 2:So there was a guy that came in. His name was Joey Bozic. He was a triple amputee. He was an MP in Iraq and got hit with an IED.
Speaker 2:He lost his right arm, both his legs, and, uh, he came to school trying to sign up his daughter for classes and, um, we ended up talking for a bit and both of us were at fort bragg. Um, we knew some of the same people, so ended up being like an hour and a half conversation instead of like a quick meet and greet. And, um, I proposed I like you ever tried jiu-jitsu yourself? And he said, yeah, well, I used to be, he used to be six, three, you know, you know, and you know being into martial arts at the time, more stand-up stuff but, um, he had become very um, um, well, he had tried going to try jiu-jitsu. The problem was is that the instructor was more than willing to take his money, but not, you know, help him out with. You know the, the differences of someone having, you know, no legs in jiu-jitsu, um, so that was holding him back. So, you know, I gave him my word. I'm like, hey, if you can be patient with me, I can be patient with you. And for me it was very interesting because I got to relearn how to do something that I've done for a very long time and looking at a completely different aspect. And um, so he showed up and, uh, I had written down eight pages of notes, uh, front and back of the uh, and I was just trying to come up with ideas of you know how I could train him, you know, with the um, the physical capabilities that he has. Well, um, he showed up the first day. I told him, okay, um, see, you see you tomorrow, you know, and, and he showed up. And so we just kept going and kept going for about six months until he felt, you know, comfortable of uh, you know, rolling with, you know, other people. And then he started joining class and, before you know it, he lost like 38 pounds and you know you saw a light in him that you know I hadn't seen in years and you know, talking to his mom, it was like, you know, he's got like this whole new, you know, driving life and it was amazing.
Speaker 2:And you know, come to find out there was just a lot of different advantages to the sport itself. It was, you know, problem solving it was. You know the camaraderie it was. You know, problem solving it was. You know the camaraderie it was. You know it was still a combat sport. So, you know, veterans could identify with it and but it's definitely jujitsu is by far the most compassionate combat sport there is. You know, it definitely allows you to, if need be, be compassionate but at the same time it can be brutal as well.
Speaker 2:Um, but it's all by the choice of the practitioner, um, so it has a lot of different attributes and we figured that, you know it helped him out a lot, it even helped me out and, um, so we decided to try to share that and so we started that five years ago. Now we have over 300 locations, you know, affiliations I think it's actually close to 400, sorry, nationwide We've put over 200 veterans to the program, you know, since then, and we've got, you know, ambassadors throughout the entire US. A few years ago, the reason why I was actually in England was I met with Sam Sheriff, with RE, at the royal marines jiu-jitsu and, um, you know, I was able to basically just give them all the blueprints for weedify and and they pretty much created a, a mirror image of weedify foundation. Um, for the veterans in the uk, um, um, so him and um, his, uh, mark Omrod I know Mark, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a great guy. Matter of fact, this thing, this was awesome.
Speaker 1:He's been awesome, but just got his MBE actually off the queen a few weeks ago. What's that? You got his MBE. He's a. It is a member of the British Empire.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, yes, I saw that Incredible, just great guys all around. They did a phenomenal work in such a short time frame, you can tell. I mean it's just the passion for what they're doing is just oozing out of them and be honest with you, I mean I'm just, I'm probably even just to know, um, love seeing what they're doing for the, you know, for the veterans, and it's, it's, it's overflown so much that, um, um, we've kind of gotten the ear of, uh, the guys down in Australia. So there's, um, you know, veteran grappling run by Scott Steer in Australia, and you know, and so it's catching on, you know, in a big way. It's not the way, of course, it's a way, but it's a way that we found to be very successful.
Speaker 1:I think that's it. If you can get results from what you're doing, something you love, something you're passionate about, and you can see the changes it makes in people's lives, that's all people want. Absolutely get that satisfaction. So if you turn this into an actual business now, then is it your full-time job? Is BJJ?
Speaker 2:um, so the um. I've had my own school um since 2011, uh, 2015. We started the, the foundation, and I was the vice president director and then relations um. And then I have another business that I make um gun sites, um for pistols, um and um.
Speaker 2:That was at the time um, I was just, I was burning the uh the candle at both ends and still still training, still competing, trying to run the business, the non-profit, and in the sites going um, so it started becoming overwhelming. I didn't want to uh um, I didn't want to lack attention to what needed attention, but I also was running out of time to do that, and so, on top of that and then trying to manage my home life, it became very difficult. I actually stepped down from the board last year, in 2019, and turned it over to a phenomenal group of guys that are doing amazing things with we Defy now. So I couldn't be happier. They're doing much better than I possibly could ever do. Just they can devote the time to it and they have some phenomenal ideas that are definitely coming from a different aspect. So everything kind of worked out great Um, I still get to kind of dabble into it um, as still being the founder, um, still involved in it.
Speaker 2:Um, but um, uh, only as much as I can handle. So it's been really great working with these guys.
Speaker 1:Where's the? If anyone wants to look at more into the we Defy Foundation, look at any uh branding. They can buy any t-shirts. What have you? Where do they go?
Speaker 2:um, you can go to weedifyfoundationorg. Um, I know that um sam's got his at um reorg jiu-jitsu foundation. Um, you can google search any of those uh veteran grappling down in australia. Um, I'm not sure if we so. We just got a new um, because we got so much more merchandise. Um, we have a direct ship now. Um, and I I'm not sure about overseas shipping, but I think we do, but I'm I'm not sure sure something out.
Speaker 1:is it moving forward? Where do you see life taking you now? What's your sort of new focus?
Speaker 2:Um, wow, I don't know, um, you know, for the, for the weedify uh aspect of it, um, I mean, I'd love to do um. So the one of the things that Sam and I had discussed is, you know, kind of going around, use a black belt as well, you know, promoting it through different you know different installations, military installations, kind of show them the benefits of that. You know, it's definitely something I'd like to do once this whole COVID thing is over, something I'd like to do once this whole COVID thing is over. We have thought of the possibility of going down to Australia, you know, in the future, you know, doing the same thing there, kind of giving the experience, and you know the testament, you know how well the program works, and try to get more people involved in that.
Speaker 2:The Parasite Sites is the other uh site company that I'm running. I just released uh last month actually, and um, so I'm trying to develop that, trying to build that money as much as I can as well, and uh, and actually right before this whole COVID thing, I was actually about to expand to a larger gym but I kind of shut it down. So hopefully that'll take over as well and I'll be able to actually pursue that and you know, things kind of go back to semi-normal, at least so much business-wise that I can actually, you know, manage it as a normal business.
Speaker 1:That'd be nice. The new normal, whatever that will be in 2021. And do you find in in the UK? You're sort of touching on your weapons side of things there with with the sites. It's not a big business over here because we've got a lot you know so much gun control. It's ridiculous. Even just getting a shotgun, you've got to be able to fill out a six-month sort of application process and firearms been banned here, pistols now for probably about 15 years and automatic well, you can't have anything over here, even if you've got a valid reason. Have you seen any of that sort of creeping into the us, any of the gun control?
Speaker 2:I mean, you hear it all the time, um, but honestly, not much has changed um my personal opinion on it. Um, I don't think you need any more new regulations. Um, I just feel that they need to to really enforce. And when you actually see guys going in with a camera and people saying, you know, literally on the camera to the guy that's selling the gun, that that person is underage and they still sell it to them anyway, or they have a record and they still sell it to them anyway, that's where it becomes problematic. Um, if they just the rules that are in place right now I think there are well enough, it's just you have to, you have to enforce them. And that's where I feel things are failing the most.
Speaker 2:Do I feel that people shouldn't be armed. Well, in a perfect world, if you said, okay, how am I turning on my weapons? As long as you can say, oh, the criminals are going to turn on the weapons, well, that's where it becomes problematic. You know the definition of a criminal. Someone doesn't follow the law. So what you're doing is disarming everyone that has done. You know what they need to do legally to purchase that and they abide by the law. So you know, in order for me to carry, you know, I have my concealed carry license and I had to actually go through that Um. The other thing, I think is that the most, in my opinion, you know, there should be more training for the individual, uh, to get their concealed carry as well, um, not just the legalities, but uh, actually how to shoot a lot of the different, different aspects of it. You know how much training. Well, they should at least be able to shoot, you know, 10 feet away without closing their eyes.
Speaker 1:I think there's a statistic isn't there that if most people they pull out a weapon, a knife or a gun and they haven't got the training, usually it's themselves who end up getting injured by that weapon right, right, they're trying to take it out, so sort of starting to close things down your forecast for 2021, big changes are obviously a foot in your country. You've got Trump on his way out and Biden on his way in you. You see that as a positive, as a negative? Um, we've only got a few minutes.
Speaker 2:I imagine you've got a big opinion I'm I've always been anti-trump, but I'm not pro-biden, so that kind of puts me in a bad spot altogether. Um, I honestly look at it, I was, I was honestly and genuinely ashamed that those were our candidates. To be honest, I didn't. I mean watching them debate. I'm one of my best friends from Germany, you know. I got a call. I was like don't say a word, don't say a fucking thing. And he just couldn't stop laughing. I was like it was like two toddlers fighting at the debates. You know. I mean this is running our country. They're the most, you know, one of the most powerful countries in history and we got them bickering like children, you know. I just I couldn't wrap my head around that. So, you know, when it came to voting and like it just felt like OK, you can choose gonorrhea or syphilis, which one do you want?
Speaker 1:It is amazing you can have a country of your size with, with God knows how I don't know what's the population there. It's like 150 million or something. It's a huge country. We're similar. Over here We've got Boris Johnson, probably Trump's love child, you know. They look very similar but yeah, I suppose he's doing what he can. I mean, we're looking forward to obviously getting over to America next year because it is such a great place, and I want to bring my family over and travel the States and we're talking about actually coming over to Texas. My cousin lives in New York and he's just got married and he's going to rent out a ranch and we're going to try and live that American dream for a few weeks.
Speaker 1:If you're coming out of Texas, man, definitely give me a heads up and take you out to the range without a doubt, and obviously, if you're over here doing, doing your stuff with the bjj and I'd love to have you here, you know come on over absolutely appreciate that we'll get the shotgun out and a few beers and have some fun that's always a recipe for a good time absolutely well.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate your time tonight. It's been great to hear your journey and it's uh, it's thank you listening to to someone from america. It's so. We're so similar. You know we call you our cousins and I think we all go through that same journey. You know we might wear a different flag on our arm, but we're all the same. We're very close-knit and I think what you've done, especially for the veterans, the bjj, especially actually knowing people that's helped over here, that's a fantastic achievement. You should be very proud of yourself. Oh, thank you. Well, I'd just like to say health and happiness for 2021 and all the best for everything that comes.
Speaker 2:All right, thank you, brother, I appreciate it. Thank you for your time.
Speaker 1:And you, buddy. Thank you. That was Alan Shibarro. What a great story and journey he's just taken us on. It's really interesting that we're getting engagement from all sides of the world now, when we look at the questions we're getting through, we're getting from as far across as Australia through to the States, and so we really want to embrace all of the veteran and the community as a wider whole out there. So if you want to come on the show, if you want to discuss the story and take us on your journey, we'd be delighted to hear from you.
Speaker 1:That was Alan Shabaro. If you want to follow his journey more, find out more, then why don't you go to shabarojjcom and you can see where he's at? He's also on Instagram so you can search Alan Shabaro and you'll come up with his page there and you can follow him and you can engage with him. So thanks, alan for coming on and, obviously, all the great stuff you're doing with veterans and others Moving forward. You can still follow us on all the usual platforms Instagram, social media, twitter, facebook so why don't you sort of head on over there and follow us, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or go on to Spotify, amazon Music and other streaming platforms, but from us that's another episode of our show completed.