Another Mans Shoes
Interviews with fellow military veterans and adventurers about their experiences of war, the lows and times of hardship, joining them on their journey and how this has shaped their lives in the most extraordinary way. Comedy moments, dark humour and witty banter.
Another Mans Shoes
Adapting to New Frontiers Post-Military Life - Former 22 SAS - Ben Garwood, HR4K.
Join us as we welcome an extraordinary guest, Ben Garwood, a military entrepreneur with deep roots in the SAS, REME, and the Parachute Regiment. Ben takes us on an inspiring journey from his childhood in Cornwall to his transformative experiences in the military. Discover how the lessons learned from past conflicts, symbolized by a commemorative coin, continue to resonate today, fostering a profound sense of historical memory and gratitude in regions like Arnhem and Crete. As we unpack Ben's story, we emphasize the critical role that a disciplined military upbringing and education play in shaping adaptable and successful individuals.
Our conversation highlights the evolving landscape of military training and the crucial collaboration needed with the Green Army to enhance effectiveness. We tackle the pressing issues of inefficiency in defense procurement and the challenges posed by technological reliance. Ben sheds light on how past experiences inform current strategies, offering a candid look at the geopolitical tactics of nations like China and the potential reforms needed in government accountability. Through personal anecdotes, Ben's narrative reveals the importance of maintaining purpose and community post-service, showcasing ventures like HR4K that provide veterans with supportive networks and a renewed sense of mission.
Explore the complexities of transitioning from military to civilian life, where finding a balance between work and family takes center stage. Ben and Martin share insights into the unique identity struggles veterans face, highlighting the importance of building communities that transcend traditional institutions. From creating networking hubs to launching lifestyle brands, the discussion illustrates the power of adaptability and continuous learning. We invite you to engage with us, share your thoughts, and join a dialogue that seeks to enrich our understanding of life after military service.
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welcome back. This is another man's shoes and we're live at hr 4k in hereford for this episode. So we went on site and we met up with ben. We'll talk a bit more about that in a sec. As mentioned, this is, uh, recorded live at the actual showroom of hr 4k. So there was a couple of interruptions while, uh, people came and went, but we've left that all in there, so it's raw and unfiltered. But enjoy this one. We did see you on the other side.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to season three of another man's shoes podcast. We're here in hereford at the hr 4k shop. Uh, we've got the owner, ben garwood, entrepreneur, uh god, I don't know how to describe him. I mean he's got multiple businesses. You know veteran sas remy parachute regiment back to the RIMI. You know he's like bounced around everywhere. We're going to hear about this shortly and we're actually recording this episode, so this will be going up live on YouTube and, as you can see in the backdrop on the video, I mean this is a hell of a show. What do you call it? Is it a shop, a showroom?
Speaker 2:Man Cave.
Speaker 1:Fucking Valhalla, mate, it is valhalla. I mean, I gotta be honest looking around here. You don't need viagra. You come into this place, man, you just get instantly hard. It is alley as fuck. You know, before we start we've actually brought you a little present, so yeah, so basically a bit of a dip behind it then.
Speaker 3:So me and adam we were duxford for the parachute sort of team into caratan normandy out of the dakotas. I unfortunately I couldn't jump on that particular jump, but but adam did anyway. A lady came up to us and she had um stuff that she wanted us to jump with, basically her father or grandfather. Was it father or dad?
Speaker 3:yeah jumped into normandy, back in you know 1944, into caritan, so, or one of the d's that's out there anyway. And so she, uh, she asked us, she gave us two coins, she asked us to jump with both. We had to give one back to her and then she let us keep the other one, and we brought that coin along with us today and we'd like you to uh to accept it and obviously put it up somewhere and here's that coin, albert oh, okay, mate hey, thank you very much welcome mate.
Speaker 2:Yes hey, cheers yeah my, my granddad was actually a peggy bridge. He went in on the gliders six airborne division with the ulster rifles. So this is very cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very, very cool we went back, I took my daughter to peggy bridge earlier in the summer after everyone gone home, after you know the d-day celebrations, remembrance and, it's amazing, the next generation explaining what those before us have gone through. Yeah, I think it's really important to keep the memory alive, but not just from the first world war, second world war, in every conflict up to now, because people are still struggling and the effects are felt through families. You know throughout the world, throughout the country, and I think we'll touch on that because, obviously, from a mental health point of view and just years later, how people are still affected by what's gone before.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, obviously we had Arnhem the other weekend and it's a duty for the kids in Arnhem to actually look after and tend the graves. And you saw at Arnhem this year the DZ. I mean this is the biggest turnout I've ever seen the amount of civilian population.
Speaker 2:And they're so grateful. But what was the conflict that we actually lost? You know, we lost the Battle of Arnhem because, obviously, poor J2 and everything else that came with it and bad weather, etc. And the people of Arnhem, they suffered off the back end of it, you know, when the Brits were left and some of them were captured, yet they're still grateful for what was achieved there. You know, and as you see it, I think it's Crete as well them were captured, yet they're still grateful for what was achieved there.
Speaker 2:You know and actually see it, and I think it's crete as well, are they there's? There's massive gratefulness of the locals and they still celebrate the falchimega, even though the falchimega were german. They actually treat the locals good and and how that sort of echoes in eternity, if you like, taking a quote from gladiator is sally is shit, isn't it? It is, mate, it is.
Speaker 1:Mega. Thank you. You're welcome, mate, anytime. So what we'll do mine is sort of take the podcast stuff and sort of roll on back at the beginning.
Speaker 3:What we tend to do is like roll it back. You know, and just you know, you went to your sort of childhood and then we'll just build it up and go through as we go along. So just take us back to sort of you know young ben, where were you born and stuff I was born in cornwall.
Speaker 2:I was born, of course, my old man was there, was worked at the psychiatric hospital down. That's where he met my mum and patient or uh working, yeah, actually and my my mum was down there.
Speaker 2:She was getting away from her ex-husband and she had two kids and my two older brothers and she met my dad. My dad was down there. He'd left the city, worked in the city and then went down. They just wanted that sort of Cornwall life, country life. He got a job in Bodmin at the psychiatric hospital.
Speaker 2:They had me and you know it was hard times for the pair of them. My mom was a young woman with two kids and they didn't really have the same welfare and the culture of then of throwing kids into welfare wasn't the same. So they were obviously trying to look after my two brothers and then they had me and they're both running two jobs. My dad was poaching on the side just to make sure there's a bit of food and money coming in. And then my man actually he he came up here to come and get a job at the psychiatric hospital here in hereford and was going to apply for two, three and then it was just of.
Speaker 2:You know it was all hard work for them to thinking about could I join the ta, could I get a bit of extra money in? And actually the traveling and everything else. He just thought you know what I've got to do? Just go join the regular army. And he, because of his medical background within the psychiatric world, he decided to join the med corps and then obviously worked his way up as a private soldier and, as you probably would have seen in, you know your depots you would have seen some guys who joined a little bit later.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they kind of they're very different breed, the guys who are there? You know they've got a bit more about them. A lot of the ds often give them a bit more responsibility yeah so, yeah, it was quite difficult for them.
Speaker 2:as I said, you know, being a private soldier, a family of three kids, my mom's trying to do her nursing training and then he slowly worked his way through the ranks, used the military for his advantage to get the kids into school, for school fees, and then, as he went up the ranks, life got a bit easier for us. So, you know, and I then became a product of being a pads brat really.
Speaker 1:But installed into you from an early age was obviously that work, ethic, integrity. It sounds like you know, but you had a loving family, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that's important. You know, I think you get a lot of you know you a lot of these podcasts and you hear these stories of these. You know pretty harsh upbringings and and sometimes I think we've got to be honest and be grateful for you know, right, some of us are very, very lucky to have, you know, very loving parents who work their tits off to to provide and look after families and and I was, you know, and I I'm very, very grateful for that. Yeah, I I think, also, being a pads brat, that there's all these blocks that make up who you are and you see it. You see it as you get older and you meet these different personalities and you can see the characteristics of people, of how they. They grew up as I was a pads brat and we were moving around a lot. The place went to different schools. I I had to make friends quickly, I had to fit in, but in your own way, so I wouldn't necessarily you can form, but you can.
Speaker 2:You know you, you can find common ground with people yeah, and I think that's more of a an honest way of putting it, and that's what I had to do. And and then eventually I went to boarding school, went to Duke of York's military school.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my kids went to Duke of York. Oh really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what house.
Speaker 3:So Faye was in Kitchener. No sorry, william was in Kitchener and Faye was in Allenbrook. Yeah, okay, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I was there just before the girls they introduced the girls, I mean it was after I left.
Speaker 3:I was in Hague and then I went to Worsley.
Speaker 2:And it's a crazy school because, as you know, I think my dad was a sergeant at the time corporal sergeant and I was at school with, you know, Farrah Hockley, General Farrah.
Speaker 2:Hockley's kids, you know kids, you know and you've, but it was classless and it's a bit like what the group was. You know it was classless. It was about everyone working together and you know, you know, everyone had to wear uniforms, so you didn't really see people who were better off than others or, yeah, more money there wasn't and yeah, it was awesome and you know, you, you also at that school and also, looking at the pads of states, you learn to sink and swim.
Speaker 1:You know and.
Speaker 2:I think that's really important for kids, you know. I think it helps you identify where you are in society. Are you going to be a victim? Can you learn to shut the fuck up? Can you learn, to an authoritative figure? Can you conform, Can you all these other things you need to do? And and I think it really sets you up for life and probably matures you more than probably some of the state schools- and other things and you can interact with people.
Speaker 1:You can just walk into a room at a young age and talk to anyone, start a conversation and and not just sort of clam up which we've noticed out of our kids, you know and not just sort of clam up which we've noticed out of our kids, the way they brought. We've always been going to talk to people get yourself out there, watch the news, so you, just you can sit there and have a topic conversation. You've got to like somebody to start with, and I think that's something that's missing in society now, where kids are just on their mobile phones, on TikTok and they're very insular and I think maybe it's maybe it's our generation, because we didn't have that and we were out and about.
Speaker 2:We spoke earlier and we're talking about mental health and and we talked about how it's it's come, it's become more common and we talk about men talking now and engaging and communicating and I think actually where it's the irony of being more connected because you have a mobile phone has actually made us less connected personally. You know it's. We've got people, as you know we've talked about before, who have probably never had a slap you know, and they can.
Speaker 2:They can be as hard as they want online and they can do all these you know keyboard warriors, yeah, yeah and and actually what they're they're losing is real social interactions and these things.
Speaker 2:And I, I think I think years ago, or not even that far along ago, I think where people of our age group, we were still drinking in pubs. You know, we spent more time in pubs because that was our social scene, where we'd meet up with each other, you'd always check in with your mates, whereas you know we normally meet him down here after work, on a friday or whatever. Where is he? Where now? You're still connected, but you're probably not really you're missing out on those small nuances of well you're talking, but you haven't really given them much away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're actually gonna make you're not the same, you're not, you're not yourself. Yeah, you know you can pick up, very true, and I think obviously through those things and drinking we are offloading, we're more confident to offload and and open up where now mental health has really come to the forefront and I think a lot of people have jumped on the bandwagon for good reasons. But actually I think we're really missing out on some really obvious things and I think that's just yeah, people talking, you know, as in in person, meeting up, going for a beer, shooting the shed, go and do something, you know, yeah, as in in-person meeting up going for a beer, shooting a shit, go and do something you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:So going back to school and I think that's I agree with you as well and obviously your kids went there. As my dad was a corporal sergeant whatever he was at the time, I think then staff sergeant, you've got a kid whose parents don't necessarily come back from a lot of money but is very well educated, and you're using the British military system to educate a kid and having those things of you know, you learn about history, you learn about geography, you understand the world far greater. So you're getting a great education which obviously, as long as you can then bring the personality in those people, then you're able to engage and have I mean, obviously I bet for your kids someone comes around the house. Your kid would introduce themselves.
Speaker 3:Give you a please and thank you from you know other sort of some of their friends, you know that went to a normal and it's. You know they packed their suitcases up at I think they were 11 when they started at that school, and it is a lot to ask women, but you know, being in the military, as you all know, it's they packed their suitcases up at I think they were 11 when they started at that school, and it is a lot to ask women. But you know, being in the military, as you all know, you're constantly on the go, you're on the move. Before that we had an au pair, which you know had its pros and cons as well, but the boarding school thing just really worked for us as a family and you know the kids enjoyed it there. They loved it. Obviously, covid COVID did ruin some aspect of that experience for them, but yeah, it definitely taught them, you know, really good skills for life. It set them up. Like you said, then it's, it's. It has set them up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think obviously having that, that time to separate from your parents and getting used to that, I mean I suffered with homesickness. Of course, I did a lot of kids. You know you're crying, you're not, you're not. You know you're missing your parents and and and all these other bits, but yeah, go, uh. It's funny because I was like giving my kids shit and and I was going at your age yeah, oh mate, yeah, I was, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like when I was yeah when I was seven years old seven years of I was away from my parents. I was making my bed.
Speaker 1:I was doing all these other bits and pieces, you know.
Speaker 2:And I have to remind them to fucking empty the packed lunchboxes.
Speaker 1:Oh, mate, absolutely. Yeah, creatures, aren't they, I think when I was like 10, 11 years old, I was taking apart French bangers, making little penny bombs, chucking them at the local buses as they went past, creating absolute chaos, you know, but it was. That was what we did, didn't it? You know, getting air rifles, sticking sort of like little earbuds down there and shooting your mates when they went past? You'd be a terrorist now if you did that you get sent down.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I I I had a chat on a podcast a while ago about, about that and how you grew up and, like when I was at the school, my escapism when I was at the school away from, obviously, because you're stuck there at boarding I used to go down the woods yeah, there used to be some woods there and I used to go, and it was down in dover, so there'd be lots of flints. I'd used to break off the fin and make like little arrowheads little knives out of it.
Speaker 2:I used to go and try and find hemp, as you do, and you know, and muck around.
Speaker 2:but you would. You would play in the woods and you do these things like you hide and seek and you kick the can and all these other games, and I think that was what helped me in my career as a soldier and learning all those things of you know, you filled craft and and I think that's something missing and it's a point I've brought up many times and we're seeing it now in our soldiers. Now it was really prevalent when, during Afghanistan, when we went into the fob mentality of being in these fobs and what we saw then was a massive loss of corporate knowledge from our Northern Ireland days of patrolling and absence of normal presence of the abnormal. And we saw that back in those days when we went into FOBs, a lot of those full screws and commanders hadn't done the Northern Ireland tours. They had a FOB mentality where they're going on patrols at the same time every day. A lot of them were taking part of the least resistance. They were on paths and tracks because of the amount of weight they're being asked to carry and you see sort of kids of our kind of generation who played in the woods.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we we did a little bit better. We did a bit better because we saw the absence of normal presence. So, absence of normal presence, the abnormal, you know, we saw these things, we. We saw what was wrong and also our field craft of of looking of you know how to take cover and on all these things we, these are all building blocks as kids that we've kind of utilized through our careers as we get older and then obviously through, certainly for you guys from your background. You're working with different units, you're having to engage with different commanders, you're having to get engaged with people outside of your own units Same as me, for for when I was in sort of PF and then two. Two is you're working with different organizations, so you have to engage with them, you have to talk to them, and I honestly believe that we were good at it because of those fundamental building blocks we had as kids, the building blocks.
Speaker 1:I think coming from the 70s 80s was fundamentally much more diverse than it is now. I think it's just a reflection of society.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think what we're seeing is this massive capability gap in the military, where we've almost gone over towards the Americans, where they've got this massive reliance on technology and when equipment falls over, and then you're like, what do we do? You know, you haven't got that ingenuity to think, okay, well, okay, let's just try and make this work or do this or that. And I think that's going to be our undoing ultimately that we need to go back to some of these really basic skills. We need to understand how to repair things, how to how to compromise and and make our own antennas out of something we can just strip down to get comms in.
Speaker 1:We used to teach alternative communications and we'd say to someone right, you need to get HF in between here and Scotland. And you'd give them a spoon and a Land Rover and a bit of wire and they'd be like, what am I doing there? And you'd say, well, look, let's just use a Land Rover bumper as an antenna. And they'd be like, oh my God. And then you'd see people, the cogs, starting to turn a lot of this as well.
Speaker 2:So that was something I was massively involved in before I left was going back to working in contested environments. Going back and we talked about it before we, we all sat down is it was never about reinventing the wheel, is about getting the wheel back out of the garage or the shed or whatever. And what I liked about what we were doing me and the who's now the rsm of 18 what we were looking me and the who's now the RSM of 18, what we were looking to do was get into COTS, so commercial, off the shelf, building your MacGyver stuff. And not only is that good, so you can learn how to make your own HF radios, it's. It's also good because it makes your brain think outside the box. So what I was trying to do is bring cots into, go go back to doing the macgyver shit, so making surveillance devices, making communication devices out of household objects or stuff you could locally buy, and it wasn't so you're actually necessarily using that. It was to. Basically, when you look at your planning and you're looking, you're planning for operations instead of just using templated planning. What you do is you're planning for operations instead of just using templated planning. What you do is you go right, well, how the fuck do I solve this problem? Yeah, and then you start thinking outside the box.
Speaker 2:I think, going back to the afghanistan piece, we, where we were continuously campaigning in the same way and units were coming in and replacing the next unit, we did go into this templated soldiering and that was great for, certainly for some of the de class, because they actually had people who doing exactly what they were told. But what was wrong was that actually we weren't, we weren't being more, we weren't able to adapt. We weren't able to adapt as the enemy had more freedom to adapt because it didn't have the restrictions that we had. So actually encouraging people to think outside the work box. I mean the brits, for since the first world war we always lived on the black economy. We begged borrowed steel, we made it work and because we did that, because we weren't templated, we were so much better soldiers. Yeah, what we then relied on was the american might and the technologies, and we used that to our advantage.
Speaker 2:So where we lacked in infrastructure capability, in those ones, we made up in skills, skills, yeah, basically basic skills, and it is interesting that actually what I saw in my time, or certainly towards the end, is the americans were really really good at. They were crap at doing the basics right, as in the actual soldiering level right, but I've obviously larger scale intelligence gathering phenomenal, maintaining that intelligence. So actually keeping those databases, the analytical process brilliant brits, greatest, the, the, the basic seals, crap at the other big stuff. And it was almost like we kept our skills because we're on the black economy, kept our skills of being able to work in the jungle in these different environments, but as soon as we left in an operational theater we just fucking ditched all the intelligence where the Americans kept it. But they didn't do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no one wrote it up and had that book on the shelf that they could take off and dust down. How do we used to do this? What are our TTPs?
Speaker 2:And that's down to our two-year operational cycle. That's down to doing two years and then moving on to the next job and we're on the wheel, isn't it? Yeah? The next job, isn't it? Yeah, and you see that in our intelligence services, through our, I used to be pathfinders, as I said, and I came up with an option. I won't say the name of the exercises or um, or go into detail and names and places, etc. But what I wanted to do was go back to basics and what I understood is the way that the, the operational landscape is going is.
Speaker 2:We're going back to contested environments, right, we're going back to. Our peers are being absolutely awesome at their EW, at GPS, deniled environments, all these sort of things. They're better at gleaming the J2 and the reason why, as we talked about earlier, is because for 20 odd years, we've shown our hand. We've shown our hand. For 20 odd years, we've shown everyone what we're doing and our enemies are just going. Keep it coming. We're going to see how you do and we're going to build our armies so we know how to combat about our entire labor. One fucking trick, yeah, yeah, you're one trick, yeah, we just fly jets over and bomb stuff, right, yeah, and we know full well the person who's going to be doing that. It's going to be on hate, on taxac and it's going to be a number 11. We missed all that. I mean the signals you'll say even in your training courses you're not going back to hf, like you don't talk about shielding and all these other good things on tempest is probably a dirty word.
Speaker 2:These days yeah, yeah, 100. So and also things like passporting your kit and equipment to make sure you know where your kitten equipment's been used in what theatres. So what you're not doing is giving away your signatures of your kitten equipment in those theatres. So I had this concept of why don't we work as an SF organisation? Why don't we work with the Green Army and see them as a peer force? You jump on the back of their exercises where they are using kit and equipment that our peers would use, and we could go and test our kit and equipment and also we could see what we actually look like. So the idea is, when they're using their optics, when they're using their EW capabilities, we can see what we look like and see if we can be seen. What's that good for? First of all, it's good to test our own abilities and get us going back to basics. It allows us to create exercises where we could then get new troopers, potential TLs so troop leaders and new Ruperts and officers, and get them to test them, everything from the estimate process through to find fix and finish using assets that have already been bidded on by Green Army units, and then, ultimately, you're then giving back your Red Force data back to the Green Army and say right guys, these are your weak spots, this is where you're being exposed, your weak spots, this is where you're being exposed.
Speaker 2:So we did this and I went. We went with the 16 brigades annual big brigade exercise. They did, and I took a team with me. I took some semester. Our guys obviously six guys. Who's my right hand man? I took two senior blokes from the regiment to make sure that I wasn't marking my own homework and I wasn't going off template. And then we had a couple of real techie guys as well along with us. Did I say sr? And the idea is I wanted to go back to being dirty, little, horrible bastards, which is what sf is meant to be exactly that yeah yeah, we had.
Speaker 2:The only thing we had was hf. So we stuck a rebro a known distance to make sure you can get the bounce, and so we stuck a guy over in that country and then obviously their job was to then relay. And then we asked some larger government organizations to see if they can pick up the chatter and the noises we were doing it. I went back to skeds. So the only communication we did was on skeds and we'd always make sure that if we did a sked we'd move off from the last known location. And we went back to exactly this. You know I'm not giving away TTPs here. This is old school Green Army soldiering from back in the day.
Speaker 1:It's like Malayan trees or breaking the 100%.
Speaker 2:And, going back, we've lost that because of the arrogance of the British military and the coalition military. So we went there and I said I knew the brigade commander. The only people who knew were on the exercise was the brigade commander, who was ex-regiment CO and the OC for PF at the time, who's a friend of mine. He was also an officer at 2-2, and said look, the only thing I need off you guys is just, I just need to know the enemy's location, your enemy's location. Who would be in for this fact? They would be our partner force, right? And then all I did is I just did a map study. I did a map study and I said, right, where would I be if I was trying to get eyes on that location? I want to be at the limit of optics and weapons. That's basics, right? Okay, I'll be there. Where would I be if I wanted to get pretty little pictures to send back to my hq? So officers had something to report on and I wanted to be in distance for them and I wanted to be sending all this data with all your little flashy drop downs and all this other stuff, and I found the biggest bush or wooded area that was closest. Then I said I'll be there.
Speaker 2:So we went down to something like Maplins. We bought 800 quids worth of kit to essentially build ourselves, uh, just a small receiving device to kind of pick up, uh, wi-fi and and phone signals something we did ourselves. We built it. Sure enough, we went past and I picked up a bit of a signal.
Speaker 2:It's like there's definitely something in this woodblock which is weird because obviously it's it's at night, it shouldn't be anyone in there anyway. And then, as I write, what we'll do is we'll lower the power in the antenna so we're not reaching as far, and we direct it a bit more directional. And I found 19 out of what was known as the 21 handsets that I knew would have been on the ground at the time. Wow, and and it's all because what they were trying to do is be more modern and they were trying to make sure that they had data and they were sending constant data reports back to their hedges. Not the lad's fault, right? This is because we're overly risk adverse and our officers need something to be talking and working on. They need pretty little pictures in their opinions.
Speaker 1:It's dangerous because we've now entered, you know, in the last couple of years, this three-dimensional warfare where exactly what you've built can be mass-produced by China. All these other people, small form factor, put on a cheap little drone, flown around the area. It's just sort of sniffing out any sort of ew signature, reporting it back, and then next thing you know you've got a whole load of sort of artillery.
Speaker 2:We knew this back in 2014 in ukraine, but a whole artillery unit were taken out because they were using a messaging service. Yes, yeah, and it was, it was done. So we knew that in 2014. We know this is being used, yet we're not learning anything. We're not. You know, our, our commanders, and this is where what's happening is the changing culture where we're giving too much tactical control to our de's instead of them being in a deconfliction space and actually and this overly risk adverse culture that's being created and what's happening is, essentially, they just don't get it, but they're going to fucking. It's going to be like General Melchid fucking brushing, or you know that thing of Field Marshal Hagrid's just wiping numbers off the battlefield with a dustpan and brush. That's what it's going to be.
Speaker 2:I went back to 16 to brief them and I wanted the EW organisation again I won't say names and I wanted the ew organization again I won't say names and I wanted all the six platoon from the battalions to be there. There was other things that was going wrong as well. There were. I just go back quickly, within 48 hours, just using a bit of simple knowledge of basic soldiering, of map appreciation, studies, kind of predicting what would happen using a bit of common knowledge and less than £1,000 worth of kit. Within 48 hours I had every single frequency that was being used by the brigade and all the locations of their commanders Massively compromised. Yeah, within 48 hours. Being used by the brigade and all the locations of their commanders massively compromised yeah, within 48 hours. I know they had two, maybe even four, ew teams out on the ground. Not a sniff of what we were doing, and the reason why is they wouldn't have done because we were using. We were on skids. We were, yeah, and that's exactly it. You know, they didn't know we were there, so they weren't necessarily looking for us.
Speaker 2:So I also observed guys who were wearing MTP, and I won't say which battalion. This is not about embarrassing them, by the way. This is about I'm trying to actually get a point across about culture. They were wearing MTP and they were being led across. I was watching them. They're being led across. I was watching them. They're being led across a plowed field when actually, on the right and the left, wood blocks and and grass where mtp fits in. They were going against across in a plow field where they're leaving foot sign which can be seen from the air very clearly and they're also wearing going across a brown field while wearing mtp. You're like this is the absolute basics that you are not getting.
Speaker 2:When you're in a 360 battlefield where people are using, you know there would be third-party awareness. Local sympathizers, proxies or whatever could use just a fucking Bakshi drone and they would have seen this. And guys, that guys who are soldiering are being led by their recce platoons across fucking plowed fields recce platoons, you know, or their commanders, whoever the point was the feedback. So when you said to them about nothing, so this was really annoying, it was quite frustrating.
Speaker 2:When I went back up there, briefed, obviously here for my old organization, you know, the poor buggers were being forced into trialing this kit and they were being forced into delivering this sort of information, so it wasn't really good for them. But obviously what we were trying to say is look, guys, this is a bit of a shitter on you, but let's use this to to stress the point. When I asked for the signals platoons and the commanders from the organizations to come in, we got chinned off. The only people that turned up were the EW Luke guys and obviously the signals unit within 16 Brigade, our good friends. They turned up and the commanders from the brigade a couple of them turned up and they just weren't interested. The reason why they weren't interested is because actually, all they want to do is prove success on the exercise.
Speaker 1:Exactly, but they've engineered it that way from the start, so they can go and get a gold star when they get their next report, or whatever. Yeah yeah, but we've got the stress test and everything. It doesn't matter if it's in business, in the military. You need to stress test your assets, find out what the weaknesses are, learn lessons, improve.
Speaker 2:It's a constant game of snakes, and that is in life generally, and but those lessons aren't being learned again.
Speaker 3:They're not coming to listen to the feedback. So, yeah, how can you teach them something? And also, and if?
Speaker 2:they're not. If these, if we're not going to learn from our mistakes, and if we've got the two-year cycle, yeah, then actually no one gives a shit because they've done enough, yeah, and they're out the door. Yeah, you know. So, yeah, you know again, you know, I think we need to look at these, these, these cultures. I mean, obviously, you know, guys, I've moved on and and everything else, but you know, I think all of these things, um, it's interesting that the the way that we haven't learned over the years. We haven't learned from all of our. We haven't learned from all of our you know predecessors, our failures. The whole point of Sandus is they study history, they study everything from. You know the Crimean War and everything else, but how can? We went into FOB soldiering.
Speaker 1:Oh exactly, but they usually only got to look at the Russians, didn't they? It didn't take them long to go from all this technological advantage they had in Ukraine to, within six months, they're just doing meat waves. Might be on the side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they, they, they use that period of time, that those, those 20 odd years, to learn exactly what we were failing, what we would. There is no excuse.
Speaker 3:There is no excuse to make those mistakes yeah the only thing you can see is complacency yeah, and arrogance yeah, a lot of technology is done. I think, yeah, yeah, yeah also.
Speaker 2:You know it. Was it there that I was? Okay, I'll have a look. Give me a shout. I don't know what the answer is, but I know full well is that when we look at technology and I've seen it in the procurement departments, I've seen it in organizations and things bringing technology and capability into units great for our commanders to have something written about and what they've been up to. We see in defense procurement when we got, you know, we spend millions on a capability that's taken so long to come in that it's already out of service.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those cops would sort that out tomorrow, exactly, yeah, yeah, because obviously the system's so slow, uh, and I just, I just think we need to really look at the whole of the civil service and the way we do things. I mean talking about these mistakes and how we're not learning. If you look, there are some good and bad things. We invested into this new ranger battalion, these ranger units that have gone on, because the idea is we think we can make money as a country by doing support I don't know defence contracts and have influence, but then you've got people like China who will just go into that country and go.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what, I'll just build all your roads and then I'll give you a backhander of 2 million quid or 50 million quid, and then I want all that woodland and I want drilling rights to that area, that's what they're doing, and it worked.
Speaker 1:That model is taking over Africa, all the infrastructure they're putting in, and, before you know it, countries are indebted. They can't afford to pay that back, and so China is in there, yeah, and so what are we?
Speaker 2:doing and we're still going, but we can train you. Oh, you mean, if you train your army, it means I have to work and now I have to command that army.
Speaker 1:Well, yes, you will have to, but this guy house in kensington, yeah, that is the mindset you're up against yeah, yeah but kia sarma's gonna sort that because he's just giving them 13 billion pound for some wind farms in africa or what have you? I mean it's just mental, I mean the flip.
Speaker 2:The flip side is granted that through the range of battalion, yes, you're keeping these green army infantry units into employment. Yes, you're redistributing wealth and everything else, but I fear as a country, we're investing more into technologies and companies where there's a smaller capita of people who are actually profiting from the money through defense than we are investing into people we're actually. You know, our armies essentially, or mod is essentially militia now, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, it is for the size of it, but I think the reason they've done that in one respect is because the technology has got to fill the, the gap that's left with the lack of manpower so, which is easier?
Speaker 2:to fire soldiers or make them redundant, because obviously it's a great way of saving money, because you're actually getting rid of civil servants all through, when actually there's so much fucking waste out there anyway. No, do you see that thing? Uh, what's his name? What's your man who owns twitter now? What's his?
Speaker 2:name sorry, forgive me, elon musk.
Speaker 2:He just said that if he, if trump, gets into power, he's going to look to axe about 90 of the agencies that have been created in america, because thinks it's a complete waste. Argentina has done the same thing and because what we've done is we've made they've made agencies for agencies and there's overlapping, and it's the same as our civil service. We've got so many people in the civil service who are actually not being held accountable for their incompetence. They actually never have to be held accountable, so they're making decisions on behalf of people who are actually contributing into society. It has no effect on them because they guarantee to be paid where everyone else is having to pay through the nose and and right for their, for their idea, ideology, and that's what we're seeing is we're seeing civil civil service organizations who are, who are being driven by their own ideologies and their own uh, political, you know, fucking mantra than they are actually for the better good of the country, you know, and this is who knows where it's going to go yeah, yeah, and it's the whole thing.
Speaker 2:The whole thing's connected because actually we see the same mentality in our culture, in our officers, who eventually become very political in their careers depending on how long they want to stay in. And we're the same thing with the fco. Is this reluctance to actually take any risk? Yes, which is obviously affecting the lower end, and then no one's holding our mps, aren't holding our civil servants accountable for fear of being called bullied. Yeah, being bullied, and the whole thing is just a fucking mess.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, I think society's going to get to a pinch point. We saw it a few months ago, but that obviously got coiled pretty quickly. At some point we'll probably take more of the French mentality and stand up for ourselves, but I don't know, I don't know where it's all going.
Speaker 2:I think we've got to realise very quickly that actually the MPs that we put into power, they're not actually in power. There's the old TV series from back in the 70s called yes, minister, it's apparently. Obviously it is exactly what's going on. Our civil service runs the government. Our civil service runs the MOD. You know, if you try and get anything done within the civil service for things like infrastructure capability, all these other things DNS for example the process it takes you to get anything done is outrageous but no one's been held accountable for failure.
Speaker 2:The infrastructure, buildings and land which has all been sold off to civil contractors to get them held accountable for them actually to do something with those buildings. You can't, because they put a military figurehead in in in these departments but has no power. Yeah, because actually the civvy contractor does sorry, the civil servant does. The civil servant will leave and go and work for a civvy contractor because he gets paid more, but it's still the same incompetence in in the job. And the officer that's working in these organizations isn't going to rock the boat because the cunt's already got a house in andover with kids in public school, so he wants a job working for one of these organizations as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a mess it is, but is it going to get better in the short term?
Speaker 2:well, it probably not, but what it needs is it needs if there are people in politics who've actually got some balls to say no right, you will be held and you know that's what needs to happen. It is Because everyone is suffering.
Speaker 1:Everyone is suffering you know Well, I think it's going to be more at the end of this month.
Speaker 2:But that budget will tell us where we're going for the next four or five years. Yeah, who's going to pay for it? It's going to be businessmen. Small businesses, yeah, small businesses I heard yesterday make up 60 percent of uk workforce.
Speaker 2:As a small business owner, I obviously pay people's pensions. I pay the tax. I, I pay, obviously, my vat. I'm vat registered. I pay 25 percent, uh, back to the government for on any profit that's made, right? So not only have I paid vat which is 20 on all products I sell. After I've sold that product at the end of the year, the tax man will go I want 25 of any profit that you've actually made. And then the council will come in and say well, I also want business tax on the business that you've actually employed, lots of people that you're paying their tax for. And now they're asking me to pay my staff even more. But they're putting up the prices of the products and everything else. And this is all made up by a civil servant he's probably working from home who isn't being held accountable for their incompetence and hasn't got to worry about his job.
Speaker 1:He hasn't got to worry about his next paychecks coming from. He's in this gold plated seat. And then you've got the people like ourselves, all small business owners. You're out there having to do the daily grind, make sure your staff paid, often sacrificing your own sort of welfare, your life, family time, getting to go on holiday.
Speaker 2:you can't even get rid of dross now, so no all of this, this culture that we're seeing, all of this culture of lack of being held accountable, being in fear of being sued or being, whatever you know, dragged over the coals, bloody minefield, yeah, all of this is so actually, no one's actually standing up for the one, for the people that are actually putting their hands in the pocket to keep the country alive. So you've got another culture that's now developing where actually there's a massive sense of entitlement because they're getting away with it. They then been told, because they're so fucking weak within the government and the civil servants are making these rules up that we can't actually fire incompetence. The person someone turns up to work now can literally go on the sick the next day self-certify, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, self-certify and go on the sick for six months and you'll have to pay them and then the government will top up the rest of their wage and you can't even get rid of them for incompetence. It's mental. But who suffers? But the thing is again, those civil servants who run, you know, within hmrc and within employment law and everything else. They don't give a shit if you go under because you can't pay your bills. They will absolutely squeeze you for everything because there are more of you that's right.
Speaker 1:There's always someone coming up behind you.
Speaker 2:There's someone coming up so they'll squeeze you dry, you'll fall over, all your staff will have to go on to benefits, but they're happy for your staff to go on to benefits because they're not getting that penny out of you. Yeah, it's fucking criminal, broken, yeah, yeah. So I actually look at now and I look at barbers, hairdressers these turkish barbers are popping up all over the place, these burger vans and everything else are paying everything by cash, fucking good on them fucking good on before.
Speaker 2:I used to hate it. I used to. I used to be annoyed by it because I felt like they're not paying into the system but the system isn't supporting the people who are propping it up yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think there is something to be said in there about getting one over on the system every now and then. Those little wins are probably what keep us going. Winston Churchill said it's every man's duty to pay as little tax as possible, and that's absolutely right. You know, pay what's due, but not a penny more things at the moment, but it sadly in society it does pay.
Speaker 2:To be a shit, it pays. Yeah, there are people on benefits that are on more money than me or any of my staff and they're not they got fast broadband, only got a 60 inch telly.
Speaker 1:They're smoking 40 bnh a day, so you know, sustaining this lifestyle on free money so we, one of, uh, one of the businesses that we run is we.
Speaker 2:We have shops on some army camps, on some transit camps and they're, like you know, a little like tuck shop type things, and what we like to do is we like to employ pads wives and what we've identified. This isn't the case in all. By the way, you know, there's some great pads wives out there and and everyone's circumstances difference, but what we're seeing is a lot of young people these days who've come from a background where their parents have been on welfare and probably their grandparents were on welfare, so we're seeing third generation welfare in some cases. One of the concepts I came up with was to create employment opportunities for pads wives. A lot of the garrisons are in was to create employment opportunities for PADS wives. A lot of the garrisons are in quite austere locations. There's not a lot of work. The wives are probably at an age where they've probably got young kids or are going to have kids, school run and all that stuff A hundred percent, yeah, the husbands are going to be away, so I thought
Speaker 2:what if I could create like a flexible working environment where some of the PADS wives can come in and work, a flexible working environment where some of the pads wives can come in and work. They can earn some more money and it will create like a working culture within them. Obviously, some cases, some people don't need that and I've got staff who are just like that. I've got staff who are great and they just work really hard. They take the money, they go home and they got a great household. That's going on. There are some that are out there that would really benefit from what we're achieving because it would give them structure in their lives, it would give them money and it means that actually they can concentrate on bringing money into the household, which makes a more secure household. So their partner can go to work and work very hard within the military without the stresses and strains of financial issues or even just problematic partners who've got too much time on their hands giving too much shit that's going on and actually can just get on. So I believe it would mean that we would lower the j1, so your personal problems at home, and it would bring more money into the household and also when that man or woman. You know that serving partner leaves the military. There's already a foot on the ground. Who's already with that working culture?
Speaker 2:I fear where we are culturally at the moment, where we they got young lads and lasses are marrying. The first thing that pays them a bit of interest because they got a little quid from that shithole that they came from brings them into the garrison town. There's a reluctance to work. Because why should I? Because I know I'm gonna get more money on benefits and family allowances and everything else and my husband or my wife is already bringing money in, so why the fuck should I work? Yeah, and then obviously that creates fucking issues at home and that means when that partner's leaving and it's a fucking horrendous culture. You know, it's absolutely horrendous. So actually I think there are little things we can do. But going back to the point was, unless they make a decisive decision to actually say, yes, I want to get into employment, where is the incentive for them to do it when you've got a government that's giving them more money to do fuck all than it is for them to actually get off their ass and go and work and contribute back into?
Speaker 1:society. Yeah, well, I think you know, if you're a little bit of a conspiracy theorist, you'd be saying well, the government are doing that because they know that's going to buy votes to stay in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but but I agree with that, but actually I I'd go deeper into that conspiracy theory in a second. But I think actually what you're seeing is the government are so fucking stupid that they believe that bringing in migrants and it did work ages it did work during the windrush actually, because what they Labour fooled a lot of the windrush into thinking, go down to the Labour office, you can sign on to get work when actually they went down there to sign on as a voting member of Labour Party, right? Do they think that these migrants, do they think that these welfare dwellers are going to actually vote Labour? No, because most of them don't want to be held accountable or even noticed.
Speaker 1:So why the fuck Under the radar?
Speaker 2:So actually they're actually just creating an issue for people who aren't even their voting demographic. There's a theory that to create socialism throughout the Western world is to encourage that everyone would be dependent on the state. But it's not a state. Right In our eyes it's a state. It's a state because it gives you the confidence that there's an overarching body that's got your best interests at heart, but it's not body that's got your best interests at heart but it's not. It's a globalist capitalist grouping, but not capitalism in the great way that everyone has the opportunity to be a capitalist, but, as in a single well a few globalists who have the monopoly that you, your house is rented, your car is rented, you don't actually work. Work, you get money off the state. The state now controls how far you go, where that money that you've been given can be spent, where it can be recycled back into their pockets. So really, it's the fucking matrix. You become a fucking battery for this.
Speaker 1:I mean robots, aren't we? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And my honest theory is look at the grouping of your Soruses, your Blairs and your Clintons. Right, they're all part of this. The Clintons and the Blairs are all part of the same universal pact, yeah, yeah. And then your Soruses, who are the money guys and the backers behind it, and your black rocks, etc. They're all pushing and they're very clever because what they've done is they're pushing left-wing politics, but really it's marxist politics, it's left-wing politics, in, in, in, in being disguised as liberalism.
Speaker 2:Right, everyone should be equal and everyone should be nice to each other, but what they're doing is they're using this liberal mindset because they know you're fucking stupid to hate a system that they've actually created. I mean, look, the same thing's being happened with terrorism. We're seeing it now in in palestine with hamas, hezbollah and the, the who. What they've done is they've used the victimhood of palestinians and the lebanese, who are getting smashed because they're being used as human shields, and the, the liberals are jumping on the back of this because they like the idea hating a, an aggressor, a single aggressor, which they see is israel, but they're not realizing that the, the wolf in sheep's clothing, is actually having you do the dirty work for them. You saw it at glastonbury this year.
Speaker 2:People were waving palestinian flags yeah, glastonbury, but only a few months before, at another festival, young girls and men have been murdered and raped, a festival, you know where is the? But they don't see that because liberal, liberal ideology only sees what they want to see and ironically, it is actually quite fascist because they only have one point of view and everything else but what they want to see and, ironically, it is actually quite fascist because they only have one point of view and everything else.
Speaker 2:But what they're actually doing is these larger organizations know how to use the left wing and liberal social media and social media.
Speaker 1:My daughter came down back in whatever it was april or something in this year she's.
Speaker 1:I can't believe what what israel are doing to haas and the people out in Gaza. I was like, all right, why? What do you mean? Because, why, there's bombing them and they're so innocent and Israel's so bad. I said, why don't you, why don't you sit, explain to me. You know what? What has actually happened? What's the story behind it's? Behind October 7th. Go back before that Israel, hamas, all the history. Well, I haven't got time to do that, you know. I just I saw on tiktok and I've seen. That's where you're going wrong. You're getting your information off. Basically a terrorist organization that is very good at social media and getting their narrative out there better than the other people. But just use your brain cells. You know people don't just go and bomb people for any reason.
Speaker 2:They they've been pushed to that it's part of hamas is hamas have openly said that they want. What do they say? There will be one on the chests and the bodies of the people, something like that, and basically what they're saying is they want the people, the population, to be human shields where they'll put their missile silos and their launch pads and everything under the houses of these people. You know, I mean, I don't want to go too deep into this, but essentially, you know, palestine should be, should be fucking Dubai. The amount of billions and billions have been thrown. It could have been the next Hong Kong Easy, but they're not interested in that.
Speaker 2:But again, going back to liberal ideology is the fact that they only see what they want to see. They love the idea of the victimhood. There's always got to be a victim, there's always got to be an authoritarian, authoritarian figure, and that has to be something that's already established. Now, as we grow up, you know, I I would say I was liberal, I am liberal, I always have been. I'm saying you guys were. I grew up, you know, born in the 70s, 80s, 90s. It was not being black, being gay, being anything was never a big thing it was never a thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now I'm starting to. I see my black friends and I'm actually I'm now consciously acknowledging that that person's black. I see a gay friend. I'm actually consciously knowing that person's gay. It was never a gay friend and I'm actually consciously knowing that person's gay. It was never a thing before. All these sort of you know. Going back to social media, yes, all this is being pushed on you to all push agenda and agenda politics being pushed through this and it's all part of this design to use left-wing liberal politic ideology to drive a marxist movement. You know the idea is to to you to become. I mean, we saw it. Look, look how everyone did exactly they were told during covid. Look to what. Look what's happening at the moment. Anyone who's against the, the fucking, rape and sexual abuse of those young girls?
Speaker 1:up in uh, rotham, yeah, then you're just. Class is far right, that's it. They put a label on you.
Speaker 2:They can shut you down yeah yeah, tomorrow but trump, for example, go back to him. The guy employed more blacks than he, or nows he. I think he was the first person to hire a female architect to build his skyscraper. He was best friends with you name. I mean, I didn't eat, jesse. What's his name? Jesse owens, jesse oh what the?
Speaker 1:uh, the preacher guy, yeah, yeah he.
Speaker 2:He pushed him into uh campaigned, paid for his campaign into politics, but then, soon as he went in there, up against a left-wing opposition, the Democrats, which is, ironically, the ones who are behind slavery, and Clinton and Biden both went to the funeral of the last KK leader is now being classed as a fucking racist, because it's easy Racist, fucking homophobe. It shuts you down, doesn't it? It's easy Racist, fucking homophobe.
Speaker 1:It shuts you down, doesn't it? That's it straight away. You know you can turn around like Israel. If they don't like something, they'll just say that you're, you know you're anti-Semite or what have you. It's a one-word solution just to get people to stop talking. So, rolling back a bit because we sort of went down, that was quite a rabbit hole actually, I think we put the world to rights there. You obviously left school, so you're not that far back. Yeah, so you left school in 1975. You're like you're a 77-year-old.
Speaker 2:I was born in 77.
Speaker 1:In 77, were you Fucking hell? You two got so much better hair than me. We're talking about Turkish barbers. They're getting getting no money out of me this week, but so you left school. You're like basically a kid of the 80s.
Speaker 2:So action films no no, no, I was more, yeah, really young kid in the 80s yeah. I was a teenager in the 90s.
Speaker 1:And then so we're all sort of similar age. Well, it's actually Martin's birthday today, so he's 50. You wouldn't believe it. Great team joined the military, so what regiment did you start in? Where? How did that sort of journey work?
Speaker 2:so uh so so I went to military school, gqs military best mate, a lad called ian clark who when we're at school he was gonna join the powers, I was gonna join the war marines that was our thing and then when we both left school at 16 he went to join the powers and he got accepted into depot.
Speaker 2:I went to the careers office to go and join the war marines and they actually told me I was too small to be a war marine, I wouldn't get in. Obviously a bit deflated I. I then went to college. I liked art, so I went to go and do art and but obviously at that time you other things get your interest in your teenage, teenage years, and so I fucked around a bit, did different jobs in different places and everything else, and then when I was 19 I went to reapply and I end up going to the careers office in grimsby and the guy who was running the careers office in grimsby was raw langlian, I think, and he was trying to get us into there, I wasn't interested so I'm gonna join the paris and I.
Speaker 2:I then went then. So I'm gonna join the paris, yeah and I. I then went then. So I actually joined a little bit later. But what I honestly believe is that I'm glad I joined a bit later because it made me a bit more worldly. You know, I got to be a teenager, I got to go, and you know, go to festivals. You know, hey, ed, but ed, I actually went to school with her and I got to do. I got to go and do the festivals. I got, you know, get drunk, smoke, weed, do all those things, yeah, yeah 100.
Speaker 1:Yeah, got to live a bit.
Speaker 2:You know most people leave at 16 17 and that's them yeah I honestly believe that that made as part of what we talked about earlier. It made it easy for me to find common ground with a lot more people because now I'm understanding, you know, I'm seeing people from different backgrounds, I'm sort of seeing this, so actually you can find a lot more common ground and also, you know, going I suppose paper point you were going about to bring up then is that formed the basis of, of, of the. We were very lucky in the 90s because we had all the culture of the fashion, the music and that sort of is the basis of why I like my, my comics and I like my rock music and I and I like all these these things. That made us back in those days.
Speaker 2:But you know, if you look at what music did 80s and the 90s, we saw these, saw these cultures where we mixed with different influences from different ethnic and sort of cultural differences, from reggae, blues, indie rock all these different things came together. That's why being black, gay, straight, all of those things were never a thing back then. What I think we're seeing now is actually a lack of identity and a lack of originality and what they're trying to do is bring up this bullshit. That's why everyone thinks it's cool to be trans, bi, whatever, and there's this to be a Furries are the latest ones that our kids have got at school, and everyone needs a label and everyone needs, and we're seeing it within mental health.
Speaker 2:We're seeing it with people now trying to give themselves labels with three letter acronyms and everything else come off the back because people have to have some sort of identity. Where years ago we found our identity by our own tribes and our own tribes were based around music and, you know, skateboarding and surfing and rugby and, yeah, these other things. Common interests yeah yeah 100%, where now everyone's so busy to try and make themselves more interesting. They actually are, or actually we were interesting because we were with you.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, at the moment is that you know school sending out emails for testing children for adhd. But you know, I think what they're, what they're forgetting is is like if you, if you put that you know, as you call it a label on someone so early, it can potentially affect them later on in life. You know, with you know future employment or anything like that, you know, and it might just be a case of, like it's a boy, he needs to go and climb some trees and throw some acres around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, I think all the energy that's pent up of just being on your phone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, on your phone, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And also the thing going back a bit is you know, we talked about it when we talked about the school, the uniform and conforming that made everyone equal. Yeah, and there are a number these, but they were coming out and you're able to do that in sport. You're able to do that to be creative with your music or different lessons, and they'll blow out. But the core element of you was to conform in a school and as long as you conform there, everyone is equal from from a financial background, of where you are in society. You know, lower class, middle class, working class, whatever kept you as an even kill, but then you're able to be creative and have have those outlets. So I'm really glad I had all that and I think it really helped me when I then joined.
Speaker 2:I eventually joined the radio. As I said, it was back in the 90s. Nothing was happening. It's very quiet. Yeah, I transferred to the remy. I did two years there where I met some of the best guys I've ever known in life. We were really close. But then it was again. I was in my early 20s. It was a really influential part of your life where you're going on the lash and you're using the money you've got.
Speaker 1:You know you're weekend millionaires and you're fucking around the country looking for mad houses. Yeah, you've been there.
Speaker 2:So where were?
Speaker 1:you posted then when was, like your first free media post? Old Shot, then Colchester and then here. So that was Old Shot with five Airborne.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with Fire and Brigade, and then it then went into 16 Brigade just as I was leaving just as I left. And then I came back into 16.
Speaker 1:So you joined Power Edge. How old were you when you sort of p company?
Speaker 2:19, 19, yeah, so good age to do it in june 3 but I was actually gonna speak to some guys I know who run an online sort of training company and they help people train for things like p company, yeah, par fine, the carder and selection stuff and just personal training, and I think there's something that's that is key. And I think all our body types are different. So for me I was at the time very fit because I played a lot of rugby. So aerobically I was very, very fit, I was fast, I could swim well, I could do all these things. But all short distance explosive stuff and I did suffer on peak. I mean, although I got through it all right, I did stuff because I didn't have that endurance in me that comes with a bit of age and maturity and your body's getting used to it. So actually when I went on selection the first time in 2000, I did actually struggle with my endurance because I just didn't have that in my body yes yeah, eventually I went on the pathfinder card and I changed my training.
Speaker 2:I changed it to spending more time on my legs, longer sort of swims, very slow, long stuff, and that built that endurance and actually I I think the reason why I was able to pass selection later on is because my body was now at a perfect time to do that yeah, where some people are just lungs and they get through it very, very important.
Speaker 1:It's interesting what you've just sort of said there, because we were talking about this with Tom Blakey the other day and, like I think Tom did it, he did like Peacock before the early 90s, when it was the older one, I think, probably basically did like.
Speaker 1:Brecon and Older Shot and all of that. You did 06, but regardless it's always been a thrashing. You know the tests and the standards are still right up. They've never dropped that. But I think it's their approach now I think you're saying is getting guys through the course rather than who's left at the end Much more sort of dealing with like stretching, nutrition and what your body type is and not getting injured, because otherwise you've just got blokes that pass the course. Then they're knackered, they're in rehab for the next six months and I think that's quite interesting what you said there, that your body's got to be ready. Mentally you could be there, but if you thrashed your body and you're not ready for any of these courses, you're not getting through, you can't grizz it.
Speaker 2:I know there's. We've got guys who've got through certain courses because they were fit enough to get in. Yeah, but they're not necessarily the best soldiers. Right, but they were just fit enough to get in. We've seen other cases where we've seen amazing soldiers. They just had some bad luck. That's right, not being unfit, but actually picking up injuries and everything else. So I think there's definitely something about investing, but at the same time, the balance is which I think needs to be looked at.
Speaker 2:But there is something about Peacomney and Selection Pathfinder Carder where they're after someone who can pull it out of the bag when the shit hits the fan. Yeah, agreed. So you know, we see it in the trees where we do the beach runs, and we see it in the trees where people then spanking the trees and you're like that's a real shame, because that guy would have been an awesome soldier. Yeah, but at the same time, if he's going to spank in the trees now, what happens if I get deployed to the trees tomorrow? That's right, we need someone who's able. His body type is this.
Speaker 2:So you are whittling the pool down and that's why very few people pass selection, because ultimately it's fucking hard. Yeah, because you're after people who can do certain things. That's right. You know who. These bodies can adjust to, environments can take a pounding can and we find a lot of times. That's why there's much more an investment. Now we're seeing the military, certainly for people our age or people who are later in their service, because now we're getting more out of these people. We're seeing that actually you can spend a lot of time here now on fucking desk jobs and doing all this other shit, the next day you might have to grab your bag and go on a job.
Speaker 2:Well, you tried doing that 34 years ago. You'd fucking kill most people. Now you're being expected to be able to do the same job as a 20 year old in your 40s yeah, but I think functional fitness there.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people got into crossfit and they'd last sort of 10 years and good or bad doesn't really matter. It's the fact that you know teaching about what your body can do and how you know how to properly lift, how to properly train, which we never did that back in the 90s. You just like you, you ran around like the football pitch. A couple of times they flick your heels and that was it right. Come on, guys, we're doing a 20 miler, I mean.
Speaker 2:And you, you were fucked, I know, yeah but, and I remember ever straight off, I remember my stretch off was doing the shower yeah, or I'll go to the nappy, get a roller dog and a yeah, just have a roller dog. They were great and a pint of milk.
Speaker 1:That was my it absolutely was, wasn't it? That was great, but you touched on then, so you first attempted what?
Speaker 2:2-2 selection in 2000 2000 or 2001, when foot and mouth foot and mouth won.
Speaker 1:That was a difficult one. Yeah, in the.
Speaker 2:States. You go out in the States for that. Yeah, yeah, and I should have been all right. I just made some silly small boy errors.
Speaker 1:I mean like the big thorn bushes out there and all the kids getting absolutely ragged. Yeah, the humidity.
Speaker 2:Bears fucking, snakes fucking, swarms of bees, everything just wants to kill you. Yeah, everything was gopping, yeah and then that was when I mean and then you're lucky, you don't meet some random hillbilly yeah you know.
Speaker 2:So we were going out in green kit but with like fluorescent orange rifles. We knew that it was a fake rifle. Yeah, I wasn't going to like take you on in case they thought you were coming after their second amendment or something you know. Yeah, it was, it was. It was cheeky we, because it was so hot, we we'd have to start really early on. Yeah, yeah, we'd have to start really early on, then you'd finish, but then, because they had lots of time, your hands, we then fill, do a few stocking fillers, yeah, which is good, yeah idle hands.
Speaker 1:Let's go. Let's go and thrash the guys yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it was a in a world of hurt. And also the thing is we used american mapping system, so we were using American mapping system with our own compasses and have to use a full email. Roma to make up the difference. So not only you do a map reading, you then had to convert the map into what you're seeing, to your compass, into mills, and then the maps were like 40 years old.
Speaker 2:So because you see your timber out there lot of stuff. The timber doesn't last very long, so you're trying to nav off buildings and locations that no longer exist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've got that added layer. I mean, when you're Brecken the guy they're trying to do mag to grid, you know the head scratching. You've got the additional sort of trying to work on all the features on the ground aren't there? Yeah, pretty nails.
Speaker 2:What was the pass rate? Like I won't say where it was because I won't say where I was. Obviously that's quite sensitive, but it was like being in the jungle.
Speaker 1:But you're doing the hill phase of the jungle. Yeah, I remember the guys coming back and sort of gave a lot of that feedback. So then obviously you came off that course what and then went back.
Speaker 2:I came off that course it was actually Rimi at the time so I came off the course, went back and then transferred yes, and then, once I transferred, I did try going back on selection again between one of the Iraq tours. Yeah, wasn't successful. I didn't really get very far in it. I think I just for me, I've always had change in my life. I think it comes back to being a pads brat and moving around and doing stuff and I think a pad sprout and moving around and doing stuff and and I think for me, I just had to get out that green army thing, that that, yeah, you know, going back, that templated, right, you're working, then you're stagging on. Yeah, you know, I needed something.
Speaker 2:I've always been someone who's wanted a seat at the table. I've always wanted to be able to have some form of input and if you stay in the green role, you're only going to get the input once you get quite high up or you're already an officer where you've got that. I think what I wanted is I want to be at seat now because I've got some good ideas and I think I can contribute. You know, and I think that's what you know, I speak a lot about it when we're here and, as I think, for most of us I think think definitely for men anyway we need worth, we need to feel like we're contributing daily to something. We also need to feel like we're creating something. For many of us, you know, maybe that's running your own company, maybe that's doing something in your spare time. Certainly, in the military, I wanted to be creative and I want to better do something and feel like I'm actually contributing to the larger picture, and I think certainly for with an sf.
Speaker 2:I also wanted to know what's really going on. Yeah, I wanted to be privy to you, know the, the why, which you know, careful, what you wish for, because actually you understand how the whole system works. And once you understand how the system works, because you see it with your own eyes, you realise what's really fucking going on.
Speaker 1:So how did you feel about that? Like, once you got into group, you went into your squadron. I mean, what was your specialist? What was your well, mobility, mobility, oh yeah. So you got to play with all the big toys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, it was good. I actually wanted to do boat, weirdly, even though I was hey ho train and halo train from pf. Yeah, and obviously great. I had that pf experience with mobility from when I was doing pf on the tours and obviously reami, but I actually want to do the boat thing. I don't know why yeah did you get to do anything? I did get to do a few boat stuff and sub stuff and everything else that you did. Realized it was fucking gopping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I still love that I think, again, it's just being able to do something you haven't done. You know it's a great place to be in and for many reasons it's a great place to be because, well, as you know, you've worked within the group. Is is, is being privy to that larger strategic piece, having, you know, a buzz term, strategic effect on the ground and knowing that you can contribute yeah, bigger and the fact that you get to do some cool shit with some cool people.
Speaker 1:You do you?
Speaker 2:know, yeah, and that's what's mega about it. You know, when you are there, everything becomes very normal. It's very normal. We, the crazy shit you do and the crazy shit you're involved in is something you know. They obviously clearly make movies out of this and everything else, but it's weird how it very, very quickly becomes normal that's right, it's only since I've left, then looking back, I've gone. That was fucking mental it.
Speaker 1:It becomes more difficult when you go back to a green unit, like when you've been immersed into that environment where one minute you're sitting here like, oh, now I'm having a chat, then your page goes off and half an hour later you know the helo's landing. You're off to Bryson doing whatever you're doing, you know. Or you go down the range but then you want nipped down a shop, so you just stick your weapon in the boot of the car, think no more of it or whatever, and then you go back. You do that in a green unit. Oh my god, you know you get, you're getting hung out or everything's just so much more regimented again and ranks and structure, and you think, oh, this is just, this isn't what I signed up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's it, isn't it? I mean, you know that they are two different beasts and they need to be different beasts for those reasons. They do. You know horses for courses as well, but obviously it is unfortunate for those guys who do have to rotate back through and leave there. It's a short period in your life really. You know, now leaving, it's important to now develop what you're doing on the outside and what you can set up for when you leave, Zero goes from there you know it goes somewhere.
Speaker 3:You know we were. We were chatting earlier, weren't we? And we're talking about, you know, mental resilience and you know mental health at the moment and stuff like that. You've had like an amazing sort of military career, haven't you? You know?
Speaker 3:in the parachute regiment, second battalion. The parachute regiment, you know, transferred over to the remy, then the pathfinders and then, you know, past selection and served with 2-2. How do you think, like, obviously, your upbringing as a, as a pad sprout if you like, go into a military school and that set you up well for for that successful career that you had yeah, yeah, 100, I think.
Speaker 2:I think. I think mostly because the that age that we're in, as I I said earlier I think being being sporty, being the chance to be outside a lot, I think you want that and I think you're only going to get that in certain specialist unit. You obviously have to do your time in each one of these locations. I went to the Rimi because, as I said, nothing was happening and brigade at the time and the Rimi guys all look like they were really good on the piss, they were, they were amazing on the piss, and I mean they were fit, they were dedicated and hardworking, but they were on the piss and at that time in my life I needed to be on the piss.
Speaker 3:I needed to be living life. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, 100%. I think all of that fits in.
Speaker 3:You know just going to the mental health and stuff is, I think, one of the military hides.
Speaker 2:The military is a great place because it can mask a lot of shit, it can keep your mind active and it can keep you busy because you're enjoying life. You know, for some boys and girls who've had a shit childhood, some boys and girls who didn't get what they wanted to achieve, you join the military gives you a second opportunity at either a life that you you didn't get to have before, or a career, or a chance for a different vocation or whatever you know, qualifications, etc. So for some people, certainly in the ORs, who didn't do particularly well at school, gives them an opportunity to still get a good wage, to travel, to do some cool shit. Obviously, for officers who are well-educated, it gives them a chance for adventure and all the other bits and pieces that they want in their lives.
Speaker 2:What the military does do it kind of takes you out of the real world a little bit.
Speaker 2:So it takes you into this sort of false sense of security where you're now with a group of people who are like-minded, you're definitely getting paid, you're definitely getting fed, definitely got a roof over your head and you get to do cool shit with very little care because you're that age in your life, right, and obviously that's more compounded because actually you definitely don't have to have the normal daily troubles that someone of your same age would do in the city street, because you don't have to worry about rent too much and all that stuff. Obviously, when you come out the other end of that, yeah, institutional, yeah, yeah, massively I say it quite a lot You're institutionalized, because you're institutionalized as a child from a family, grouping or whatever. Good or bad. You're, then in the military, you're institutionalized. And then when you come out the other side of it, you're now in the real world. You have to contribute back into society, but you're at an age where your body's different. You're older, you're, you're fatter, you've got less hair, you've got all right.
Speaker 1:Why are you looking at me?
Speaker 2:okay, that's where it goes you've got all these things that are absolutely your kids are growing up, you're probably on your, maybe even your second marriage. All these things You're not as fast as you used to be, all these things that you probably were when you peaked in your twenties. And you see it with a lot of these veterans who become career veterans, right, they're working for different charities or they're there at all. The all the reunions with all the stuff on they.
Speaker 2:They weren't any. I say this half of them weren't any good when they're in, yeah, then they. They still try and reflect this, this idea, this sort of it's almost like Fonzie, you know, like Fonzie, still the cool kid, but he's, he's now in his forties, hanging around with 20 year olds. That is true. But actually, when you're out and going back to the labels people are trying to put a label on, why do I feel like this? Why am I? You know? Is this depression? You know? Is it because of what I've done?
Speaker 2:Arguably, the percentage of people who have actually seen real combat in the military is quite low, really, because the way the operational rotation happens, the way people come in and out of service at different times, and obviously the jobs and things they did. So you can't necessarily say your PTSD is from real combat for the percentage. But what happens is you've got charities like Combat Stress and other people who make a living out of working with people with mental health and PTSD, and it was also very trendy for a period of time and it took away PTSD from people who've really got it. And we see people who've got childhood trauma that was PTSD and then they weren't in the military, where it was hidden, and then it comes out and now they're dealing with this shit that they never had to really face when they were in the military.
Speaker 1:That's right. They locked it up for 20 years and your brain's very good at that.
Speaker 2:Your brain is designed to look after number one. Yeah, regardless if you've got kids, it's different for women because they've got inherent instinct to protect them. Men are a little bit different.
Speaker 2:We have to build bonds and we have to understand who we're trying to protect, but your brain's very good at looking after you. So what happens is, when you deal with mass trauma, your brain will go and compartmentalize that and process that somewhere. But eventually it comes out in different ways. So your brain is dealing with this drum. So a lot of times when people are saying I've got ptsd, I've got this, I've got all these issues, well, actually no, your brain's just dealing with the shit. It's dealing with that and your brain's very good at processing that and it's dealing with with that and it's dealing with all these adjustments. But what you don't know is because you've got consciousness. As you're trying to, your consciousness is fighting with your subconsciousness. So you're kind of working out why is that? Then we've got people oh, we're in the military in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1:PTSD. Yeah, yeah, let's stick in the box. Okay, we can dance to that.
Speaker 2:Now you've got people. Yeah, we have it in here without people come in straight away. They tell you that ptsd the moment they come in, because someone told them they share that with you straight away yeah, yeah, and you probably find that you know, but it's like a badge yeah, it's not a knock on them, that's what they're being told.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah you know, I think going back to I've said said this before as well is I think many people from my background were're very good at processing. Our brains work like that I'd say 70 people from my background. Our brains are able to process the operational, the threat, the risk, and we most of us sleep very soundly at night because we understand the reason why and the effect and the cause of effect and everything else. And you find that there's probably less mental health issues for people who leave our organizations leaving than there are in bigger institutional organizations where they're templated and they're structured, because already we're understanding we're used to change, used to different environments with different rights to that. So you know, I think there are less people from the backgrounds and what you actually find is some of the guys and girls from an SF background. Some of the trauma that's coming out afterwards is mostly from childhood trauma or other effects Interesting.
Speaker 1:You say that A number of people within group when he talks, they say, obviously there are some of the guys who got bad PTSD, like within group when he talks, and they say, obviously there are some of the guys who've got bad ptsd, but a lot of the time is it's manifesting itself after they've left the service, like you said just now. You know people put it down to something that happened in afghan, iraq or another operational theater, but it actually goes 20 years before that. You know. I think you just amplified what they've said and I think that people probably need to look into that more. But maybe that doesn't suit some of the charities and some of their agendas, the way they operate. People are making lots and lots of money out of it. Yeah, and that's what comes down to it. There's a lot of charlatans out there as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and people are always looking for a reason why and let's bring it back full circle here is actually getting people on the piss. Together getting people, but together getting people, yeah, but at the same time, not too much, because we've got real life's leave and responsibilities and other things to do. But I do think I mean, you know, something that me and me and ed over there are working on at the moment is, you know, we like a good beer and we like cider, and and that's something that we're trying to work on is we know, actually it's a great way of getting good people together, like-minded people yeah, yeah, yeah and just just have fun again you know, real world.
Speaker 2:Real world, yeah, kind of life stuff, which is means that people have got to talk and communicate and socialize and not worry about saying something and you know yeah, yeah, and not live in a world that's false, and you've sort of created sort of false things online and these false personas end up getting canceled for just speaking what 99% of people think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Or or also that that you think of also the anxiety that the online's issue that's creating is because now you have a persona that you believe you are online, you're now faced with other people that you see look like they're doing amazing things. You know, we've got a great space here at hr 4k. We are doing some amazing things, but fucking if you peel back peel it back you know, we're trying to pay bills, we're trying to put food on the table.
Speaker 2:It's fucking hard, yeah. But people would compare themselves to this. People say, oh, they're not. You look like smash net. We look like the Smashnet because it's a marketing tool. Yeah exactly, but actually we're in the same boat as everyone else and everyone's just working hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're all swans, aren't we? We look all graceful and cool above water, but below the surface our feet are rambling around. It's a bit of a finalize on.
Speaker 2:So how long did you do in the military? 23 years, was it proper whack and what'd you leave as staff sergeant? Yeah, that would be a second career because obviously I left the green army as a sergeant right, yeah, yeah, got you and then what a lot of people leave.
Speaker 1:How did you find that sort of transition to civilian life?
Speaker 2:did you struggle with anything from like military service, like from a mental point I'm a bluffer because really, to be fair, I get to still do the stuff I enjoyed, which is social aspect.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So actually really I haven't really transitioned.
Speaker 2:I'd lie if I could have, because I kind of really thought about this recently. Yes, we help and support transition. As you know, we work with a number of organizations to help people get jobs and we've created this place as a sense of escapism so people come in and feel like a rock star and just chill out and meet up with your mates and stuff. So we are very much involved in the transition and we help with that and we're very open about that. We are certainly not a welfare drop-in station and a veteran dripping station. As we said. There's some great organizations for that.
Speaker 2:We are, you know, a form of escapism and and that's what I I'm, I'm living that now I get to keep everything I enjoyed about the military, which for me was the people and the people I hung around with and the stuff. Yeah, I know full well I can't do that job again. I know full well I've left that job. So it's not the job I miss and I'd argue for everyone else it wasn't the job that they miss. What they missed is probably purpose and the people that you had around. For me I've got purpose because I've got to keep this going. I've got the livelihoods to keep going. I've got food to put on the table for my staff and everything else. I've got purpose. I've got drive, because we need to grow this to keep going, but ultimately I've still got the same people that I enjoyed to socialise with when I was in that I've got here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, you left the military yesterday Martin, that was like your last day and handed his ID card in yesterday. It's his birthday today, best birthday present ever. You are now like Crow. What do you think you're going to miss?
Speaker 3:I mean obviously exactly what you touched on there, ben, having the same like-minded people around. Maybe you know the Christmas mess do, or something like that, but being involved with you know, know the charity that we're involved in. They're like-minded people, you know. These are some, some of the lads that are in, ladies, lads and girls that are, you know, involved in the charity they you know they've had a pretty hard time as well.
Speaker 3:So when we all get together and we have like the charity yearly dinner night or whatever, I think that will fill that void for me. So you know, I'm, I don't, I wouldn't, I haven't got any concerns.
Speaker 3:So and I know I could you know, at any point pick the phone up and say you know, ben, I'm gonna come down for a brew and I won't come here and drip or anything, but you, you're coming into this, so and it's like going in the mess, isn't it, I guess? Or you've got all your memorabilia up and you know, you've got your merch and stuff like that, which is great, and we'll touch on that shortly. So, yeah, I don't, I don't think.
Speaker 2:I've got any, I think. So you know from what you just said. Then you've got purpose. Family's purpose, that's 100, that's never changed. They're the rock, aren't they? Yeah, you've got purpose. So you drive the charities. That gives you direction. You know you've got to get a job and you know you've got to reintegrate. I, I do say that there isn't. There is an arrogance of some soldiers that they're reluctant to integrate. They believe that, yeah, yeah, that's that's absolutely wrong. But yeah, I think, I think, actually having having that those like-minded people around you, remember, when you're in the military you're forced to socialize with people that normally you wouldn't actually socialize with Actually spanners.
Speaker 2:So you end up levitating towards people of like-minded ilk and I think if you keep those friends going forward, that's always going to be a rock.
Speaker 3:Some people, as I said before.
Speaker 2:Some people did peak when they're in to the end of the thing they're hanging on to but they really need to try and reintegrate. But on that you're leaving at a great time. You've left at the end of your career. You've got to remember there are people who didn't have that opportunity. Some people were forced to leave and you can see why there is massive angst in that, because actually the choice was taken away from them. Where for you, you, you know and left on my terms.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you've left and I think, if it's the same, but I left because I felt like I had no longer had, I felt like I was no longer contributing, and that was the same. As you get to point where, yes, you probably could go the ta route, you could do this, but if you don't feel like you've got something to give in that world, you've got to reappoint that energy into something else, like Hell and Bandits and obviously the stuff you've done with Scott Ears and stuff yeah, I think.
Speaker 1:So you left. Were you doing anything business wise before you left? Because you've been in the military being a paid member of society. Now you've actually got to earn your own wage, so did you set up HR4K?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did when I was in. Yeah, I was running this out of my garage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it doesn't surprise me Most of the blokes are. Everyone's got two, three different side gigs on the go.
Speaker 2:I think some people need to be involved in multiple things. Yeah, you know, I mean obviously you should do one on Ed. Sometimes A guy who runs a farm, his own cider company, involved with HR4K and finances. Same, you know, I think when you're in, certainly in the unit, there are times where you don't necessarily do in stuff all the time. I talked about being number one and number two on the TN. Sometimes you're number two on the TNs, right? So there's a lot of downtime and not doing anything. Number one tns you've actually got a job to do. So it was I need something to fill that gap and that gap needed something that I felt like I was in control of and I had something to do. Some people take up hobbies. Some people take up, you know, fishing, mountain bike and whatever. For me, I liked the idea of business and I liked the idea of producing something that reflected my personality and what I was involved in and that's what when you created hr?
Speaker 2:4k. Yeah well, actually I was doing all kinds of random shit before that. I was doing but a procurement designed some belt kit called fcs, which I did with a brand we called Pilgrim, and then I've done a number of little bits and pieces. It was only when we started. It became quite fashionable for a lot of these sort of American venture and brands and we jumped on that quite quickly Like the black rifle.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, because we were wearing.
Speaker 2:that's the stuff we wore. That was our culture, you know. So, yeah, I started selling that and then it got to a point where I wanted to do my own stuff, which is very difficult because now you've got to restart something from the ground up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Learn your mistakes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I made loads yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think anyone who says they get it right first time's line.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's a difficult journey, but I think that's because you learn from that you use that sort of background, of sort of accepting that failure is going to happen. But you're also lucky, because you're in, you're still getting paid, you've got a roof over your head and you've got that's right if you need that safety net for a few months so. So I always say for anyone looking to, looking to leave, before you leave, try and build what you're doing while you're in so you can make the mistakes without the financial burden of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't put the house at risk, because the minute you're out, no one's looking out for you. No, no, no, the army don't care.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, can't call the Padre, no, exactly yeah, yeah, obviously I was on a good wedge when I was in.
Speaker 1:That dropped off like God knows. It was horrendous. So how has this business been for you? I mean, tell everyone about HR4K, what it is, what you do, what you offer.
Speaker 2:This HR4K. To be honest, it's a little bit smoke and mirrors here. So we've created a place where, on the front of it, we can all come and enjoy it and create that escapism and we can promote things that people are interested in. But what we are actually doing is creating a networking hub. That's what we are. We we're creating a space, a neutral space, where people from different backgrounds can come in and find commonality in things from rock, music, beer, fitness, m fitness, mma, jiu-jitsu, whatever the pastimes, tattoos. There's sort of subcultures that everyone likes and spans across multiple demographics, and then by meeting people from different backgrounds, we can find the wants and needs of each other. So, whether it's work, work, whether it's projects, whether it's meeting another half, I don't know, you know whatever those things are that fill those voids that we, you know that we're looking for that purpose, that direction. Obviously we do it because we pick up the gap, so use our networks to hook people up and through that we would get finders fees.
Speaker 2:We help with procurement, so we we deal with that. Obviously we help people build their brands and build their businesses and everything from. I mean our jujitsu club and functional fitness. We've got just short 400 members. We did that within a year. Each one of them have got their own story, each one of them have got their own jobs, each one of them have got their own lives and through that, by mixing that, we're not only like keeping tabs on people to make sure everyone's okay and building these communities, not institutions. We're building communities, not institution. That should be very clear. We're also in a position to help people and get people so what they may need, you know. So I think it's it's good, great hub yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 2:It's difficult because it's not like you're not selling a product. You haven't got a clear line of direction as a business model. So what we have is we have a number of um as ed's told me recently in verticals. So we have a number of elements of the business. So we've got the print house where we can produce and help people grow their brands and their products. We've got the jujitsu in the gym where obviously we pick up membership fees, and then we've got the shops on the army camps where we can get maybe a bit of a steady income for a period of time of the year when the soldiers are in the camps, and then obviously again, everything kind of mutually supports each other.
Speaker 1:It's quite important what you've done there. You've actually built a layered business because you can just rely on one dynamic income stream that can soon drop off. Whatever business it is, if all your eggs are in that one basket, it can soon go. So I think the lesson in what you've seen because obviously there'll be parts of the business, there'll be quiet months for everything, but at least you know that some part of it will prop up the other, and I think it's an important lesson that people understand when they're getting out of the military is just don't rely on one sort you know. Just explore what's out there. Don't just get stuck in a dead-end job. If you don't enjoy it, look elsewhere. And every time I sort of see you on social media on Instagram, ben Garwood you're always up to something you know it's brilliant to see. Now you've got the logos. It's brilliant to see. You've got the logos, the badge, the new SEER badge, which is what you promoted the other day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we started the SEER course. We're helping build their PRI shop, which is great because that means it's something that helps them build themselves up and gives them some ethos within their own brand. So many people have done SEER. They have like 3,000 people go through their courses a year. They've never really had an identity. As I said in the post, we we're not giving them a qualification badge, we're giving them a this is a, this is a unit badge. Yeah, everyone can identify with that. So again, that's that really good ethos. And we're seeing people who did the lerp school from back in the day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're going into it in bavaria or germany, wasn't it back in the day?
Speaker 2:yeah, uh. So there's lots of people who buy and obviously it's multinational tri-services. There's lots of people on there, yeah, I think, also having these. I mean Patrol's the big brand that we're sort of working on at the moment.
Speaker 3:Got some cool stuff as well, Ben yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:T-shirts are mega, I've been watching on the video. You're wearing the Patrol gilet. I think all the blokes wear gilets now, don't they? It's like the latest thing.
Speaker 2:The idea behind the brand was something we had, an idea I wanted to build. Almost I wanted to. I like shooting, I like fishing, I like I'm never going to be climbing up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm never going to be climbing up the, you know, North Face of the Eiger or whatever. I'm not going to be doing that. There's a market for that kit and equipment. I'm not doing that. I need something to put on when I have to go put the chickens away in the middle of the night or let the dog out while it's pissing down outside. It's functional, but also fashionable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or going to watch the kid play rugby on a Sunday. I want something that I can wear down the pub or I can wear working in the garden, but it's quality gear, but it's affordable and I think in this current climate, at the moment we just don't have that disposable income but we still want nice things and we still want tribalism, so we still want to identify that we belong that's right in something and something that reflects what your interests and what your passions are.
Speaker 2:So that's what patrol is very much on, so that's one of the big brands. The stuff that myself and ed are working on at the moment is ground hammer. So we're won't go into detail, like there's lots and lots of layers in that at the moment, but essentially we're working with a team that are running the gym and building that community and that real, those foundations to give us legitimacy in the jujitsu and the functional fitness and mma world, as well as, obviously, what we're doing with other elements of of ground. So we're really trying to build that as a brand and if we get it right then you know, hopefully we can create lots of jobs and you know we can kind of go some places with it. So, uh, going back to kind of a point you were saying, there is where you sort of see me on these different things. I don't label myself as adhd, I probably am.
Speaker 2:I don't label myself as I know, yeah, but I need, I need creative output. You know we all do in different things it's not adhd, though, is it?
Speaker 1:no I just think that is. You've got some drive. You want to just make the most out of life. You know you're enthusiastic, you've got energy, so to me that's just normal. That's just how everything is. I don't want to be sitting down just watching Netflix. You know, I want to be out there creating something, having some fun, having a bit of a laugh and a joke. Making a few bob is just normal.
Speaker 2:For someone else, that's like you're special 100 and it's not the cash, it's not the money that, because if it did, I'm clearly clearly not. You know, it's not about that. I'm in a very fortunate position that I have the freedom to be able to create and and hopefully there are certain, as I said, those, those, those arms, those verticals that we're creating that other people can identify with as well and enjoy. And if you can do that great, you know it's not going to be for everyone- but it would, so have you found your happy place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're getting there. I think I am not going to keep driving and have this idea that I'm going to be in the grave and I'm not going to spend time with the kids and the missus because I'm too busy focused on that. I am trying to get a happy medium but it's very difficult. It is difficult, it is very difficult, I think that is one thing I'd say to you, Martin.
Speaker 1:You're at this point. You've just left the military and to anyone who's listening to this. Don't be quick to jump into another career straight away. Obviously you've got to get an income I get it. But if you can spend some time with the kids, if they haven't really seen you and the wife, just do that for a few months. Go on that holiday you want to do. Don't do what so many people did I did. I left and then went straight into another job. I think, oh, I've just missed this opportunity.
Speaker 2:It's almost like you're getting your gap year again when you leave university or something. You get that opportunity to go and enjoy life before you've got to become an adult, be a kid again. And I was lucky. I had I got to start lockdown, so it was lucky and shit, yeah. So I got outside lockdown hoping to go into a number of businesses that we'd sort of set up and sadly, I either had people that didn't pull their weight in some of those businesses or I got kicked out of some of the other ones. Yeah so, or not kicked out, but it didn't really work out for me so everything that I got out for crumbled.
Speaker 2:The only thing I had was just this place, but what I did have was lockdown and lockdown. We had the most amazing spring into summer my kids.
Speaker 3:My kids were at home.
Speaker 2:I just got into a new house, we had a decent garden. We live in the middle of nowhere, which is quite nice, so I had so much opportunity to, like you know, spend some time with the kids in the garden. You know, do some. I mean, obviously we chinned homeschooling right off and it was good because the kids were at an age they don't need to be doing.
Speaker 2:What they need to be doing is playing and getting dirty, yeah, yeah so I think I did have that gap year, yeah, and then obviously straight after that, when everything got tight.
Speaker 1:It was fucking pain it was difficult, wasn't it? I think some people lockdown was actually a great life reset.
Speaker 2:You've got to spend that time yeah, yeah, it was pretty shit for a lot of people, but you know you can't help everyone.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, you've just got to take what you can out of life.
Speaker 3:I set up my inflatable jacuzzi and, you know, sat in the garden and just chilled and stared up to the nice blue skies, like you said they were amazing when it was your free electric that the army were giving you.
Speaker 1:It's huge on 40 degrees, 24, seven.
Speaker 3:We had a we were talking about this earlier, weren't we? It wasn't sort of connected to the main infrastructure, so it was like a generator on camp or whatever, and the electricity was very cheap, I think for a whole year in that particular quarter that I was in, it was, I think, just over a hundred pound for a whole year's worth of electricity and we had a jacuzzi on permanently for yeah he doesn't know bitcoin as well.
Speaker 1:While he was there, yeah it would have been sensible.
Speaker 3:Going back to the, to the merchant stuff. Then, ben, where can people listening to this watching it online?
Speaker 2:where can they?
Speaker 3:sort of look to get some of this.
Speaker 2:So online it's called Patrol Goods for patrol. I've got Patrol Goods. You can Google that. Hr4k, you can Google that, it will come up. And then for the jiu-jitsu and the bjj mma and the functional fitness, if anyone finds themselves passing through hereford, then again just google ground hammer tc, drop in. Yeah, yeah, drop in, come and enjoy it. And I mean the level of coaching in there is, it's top notch. Yeah, these guys are absolutely the top of their game and they work with a lot of other people. So what they're not doing is they don't become a proverbial self-licking lollipop. That by working with other people, they're making sure that they're, you know, staying on top of the game. They're learning all the time and they're obviously giving that to the students as well.
Speaker 3:Staying current yeah, yeah, and it's good, there's no bullshit, there's no.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know the coaches deliver students. Go enjoy members. Go enjoy it, gone. You know we don't, don't get involved in the other crap. You go in, you get what you're you're paying and what you're enjoying. That's what you want. Yeah, 100, yeah, you know. Again, I've been trying to make that community not an institution, and that's what that place needs to be. It has to be, you know. Know everyone's together, enjoy this, get what you want out of it, go. Not get in here. Comes a little bit, it's great. You get in there, you get what you want and go.
Speaker 1:So all the brands, they're all sort of overlapping.
Speaker 2:You're creating a real community. Yeah, yeah, I think you've done fantastically well.
Speaker 1:You know, from an outsider, obviously I've been here for a brew before. I know a few of the guys, but seeing it from the outside and actually coming in here now and talk to you about it, you know it's just, it's all genuine thank you. A lot of love sort of being passed around. I think it's great. You know you're smashing it, you know you've got it's not, it's not easy, but I think time, um, but martin's gonna. Yeah, we've got come on, he's got his.
Speaker 3:He's got his favorite question. So, um, yeah, grab bag. So you know, free items must haves. What would your free items be?
Speaker 1:oh, you can't do product placement here.
Speaker 2:No, no, no yeah three items grab bag on on the go. Obviously I mean we're taking out, obviously the, the. The crap about this is where your head goes mentally, this where I'll be like passport, everything else, uh, I think obviously for me as a grab bag it would be lofty wiseman survival handbook, pen, knife and some string interesting, that's what. I think pen knife's up there quite a lot, lofty one haven't heard that name for a while, yeah, yeah a lot of people say pen knife got to the end of got a good photo.
Speaker 3:there's been loads of good advice through the, you know one of the other questions was service lever one, but you've chucked loads of stuff in there. Ben Thanks, you know, from myself as well. I know Adam's thanked you.
Speaker 2:No, to be honest, mate, it's a new chapter in your life. I think you've got to really enjoy it. And also I say this a lot as well is look, we've never been in a better position to get all the support we need as leavers. We've got our own regimental associations and charities. We've got lots of charities that are out there for support. You've got your own governmental support. That's there. You've built up a whole.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know god knows how many people you've met through your careers who are your friends you can reach out to and obviously you know most of us are very lucky with our health as well. So there really is, I think, some people just very unlucky if they find themselves in a position that they can't enjoy a new chapter in their lives Right and the most of it that stigma.
Speaker 3:You know it's not, it's not okay to. You know, reach out and ask for. You know, a bunker. You know there are people out there that are struggling but they don't need to be no there isn't there isn't an association or a charity designed for it. They're there, aren't they? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's okay to not be okay, just speak out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Reach out to the blokes, even if you don't know them. That's the great thing about the Brotherhood, the military sort of communities. You talk to someone, you're all like-minded and you'll just help each other. You see it on Facebook, on various posts. People just jump in, they want to help you they're not insular.
Speaker 2:Yeah, give back well, I think.
Speaker 1:Appreciate your time today, ben. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Quite an impulse of this one when I asked you and you said we'll come down and talk about the podcast.
Speaker 1:I was like what like today I thought you were like you're going to go right we've done it, but that's the best one, isn't it ad hoc? Just get in there, talk about it. It's a bit of a longer one, so I think they might have to put it in bite sized chunks but the long form podcasts are the great ones.
Speaker 2:Don't listen to it on long drives or working with heavy machinery.
Speaker 1:You might fall asleep exactly, but if you're cold, there's loads of great gear here so. I think we're going to leave with a few bits.
Speaker 2:Yeah, probably.
Speaker 1:Well you've got your pensions to smash. Great guys, thanks man Cheers.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Cheers.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the end of that episode with Ben Garwood of HR4K. Hope you enjoyed it as much as we did recording it. Martin and I must have spent the whole day up there in the end, because such a great showroom he's got there in Hereford. So pop on in if you're ever in the area. Pick up some merchandise for the patrol and the hr 4k branding or just get a nice brew. Just go there now for chill out.
Speaker 1:Uh, if you've got any questions off the back of this one, feel free to dm or reach out to us on instagram and all the usual channels. We hope you enjoyed the show. Uh, we've got more episodes coming up. You know we're recording them weekly and releasing them. If there's anyone you want to see on the show, why not sort of drop us a note and we'll see if we can get them on? Ask us any questions again, we can add them into the episode. So if there's anything you want to know, particular guests or any queries you have, send them our way and we'll see what we can do. As always, little sort of appeal out to everyone, just to leave some feedback. If you're on apple podcast, pop down and hit the subscriber button on there and leave a star rating. Same on youtube and spotify. But for now that's the end of this episode. Enjoy the rest of your week.