You ever find yourself wishing there was a handbook for leadership? Well, get ready because this episode is just what you need!
My partner in life and all other things, TLC, is hopping on the mic with me to get down and dirty with all things leadership. We're talking about everything from our glory days as band field commanders to those fun times as bowling team captains - and all the crazy leadership lessons we've picked up along the way.
We're really getting into it, talking about how important it is to create a safe space where everyone feels heard, responding to tough situations, and how all of this shapes the way we lead - trust me, it goes way deeper than you might think!
Now, picture leading in a way that feels so true to who you are at your core. Yep, that's exactly what we're diving into. We're chatting about how vital it is to make decisions as a group, and how doing so can help our teams pull together towards a shared goal - all highlighting the magic of solid leadership. We're even shining a spotlight on the oh-so-tempting 'zone of excellence'! Get ready to uncover its double-edged sword status and the power of stepping back to take a second look at our roles.
Ever found yourself stuck in a job you just can't stand? You're definitely not alone. We're digging deep into how hating your job can mess with your productivity, and how a dose of good leadership can completely turn things around. We're also unpacking the art of finding stability in the most unpredictable situations and how doing so can supercharge your personal leadership skills.
As we wrap this episode, we're talking about the transformative power of leading from the front and how to harness it to get the results you're after. So, buckle up and join us on this wild ride exploring leadership and its many dimensions.
For more information on The CREATE Leadership Conference, check out: https://institutefortrauma.com/create
Want to connect with us?
On the web:
On social:
By email:
Loving the show? Send us some love back by supporting us https://www.buzzsprout.com/1522051/support
You ever find yourself wishing there was a handbook for leadership? Well, get ready because this episode is just what you need!
My partner in life and all other things, TLC, is hopping on the mic with me to get down and dirty with all things leadership. We're talking about everything from our glory days as band field commanders to those fun times as bowling team captains - and all the crazy leadership lessons we've picked up along the way.
We're really getting into it, talking about how important it is to create a safe space where everyone feels heard, responding to tough situations, and how all of this shapes the way we lead - trust me, it goes way deeper than you might think!
Now, picture leading in a way that feels so true to who you are at your core. Yep, that's exactly what we're diving into. We're chatting about how vital it is to make decisions as a group, and how doing so can help our teams pull together towards a shared goal - all highlighting the magic of solid leadership. We're even shining a spotlight on the oh-so-tempting 'zone of excellence'! Get ready to uncover its double-edged sword status and the power of stepping back to take a second look at our roles.
Ever found yourself stuck in a job you just can't stand? You're definitely not alone. We're digging deep into how hating your job can mess with your productivity, and how a dose of good leadership can completely turn things around. We're also unpacking the art of finding stability in the most unpredictable situations and how doing so can supercharge your personal leadership skills.
As we wrap this episode, we're talking about the transformative power of leading from the front and how to harness it to get the results you're after. So, buckle up and join us on this wild ride exploring leadership and its many dimensions.
For more information on The CREATE Leadership Conference, check out: https://institutefortrauma.com/create
Want to connect with us?
On the web:
On social:
By email:
Loving the show? Send us some love back by supporting us https://www.buzzsprout.com/1522051/support
Hi and welcome to the Becoming Trauma-Informed podcast where we help you understand how your past painful experiences are affecting your current reality and how you can shift those so you can create your desired future. I'm Dr Lee, and both myself and our team at the Institute for Trauma and Psychological Safety are excited to support you on your journey. We talk about all the things on this podcast. No topic gets left uncovered. So extending a content warning to you before we get started if you notice yourself getting activated while listening, invitation to take care of yourself and to pause, skip ahead a bit or just check out another episode, let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Hey y'all, welcome to season four, episode one, the season on leadership, and I'm really excited today because I feel like I say that every single episode, but I'm always excited. I guess it's a good sign, right? I just monkeyed my guest who had a hair and his beard. If you're listening and not watching the video version of this, i have the one, the only TLC, my husband with me. We're both exhausted. There's a lot of stuff happening in our world right now, which is kind of great, because I actually asked TLC if he would come on this episode with me around leadership, because I wanted to. Well, first of all, he's been on an episode in every single season so far. So there's that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'd be the least one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got to get in the least one. Two, it was important to me to have him on because, you know, part of the reason that I wanted to focus in on this is that something TLC and I have really been working on is self-leadership and leading ourselves and also like leading our kids and me being led by him, which I am getting better at. So I asked him, i said, hey, you know, can you come on the episode? and we were talking about what we wanted to do And I said, oh, you know it'll be really fun, as I've never been interviewed on the podcast by anybody, so you know the business in and out. You know me we've been together for like over 18 years, but if I have, you ask me questions about leadership and then that'll be like a really fun way to kick off the season, because people love you, tlc.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i thought that sounded fun. You know, get a couple questions ready to go and in a cold read you've not heard of these questions.
Speaker 2:So I don't know any of the questions, which is scary and also fun, i trust you, okay. So the thing I want to say just before this too, is this season is going to feel fundamentally different, and so that's also one of the reasons I want to do the episode like this, because we're going to start having different conversations, and a lot of this has been me interviewing people or asking them about their personal journeys, or it's been me talking about my personal journey, and I really want to start shifting things around a little bit to asking people about not just their journeys but how they are creating psychological safety and bringing trauma sensitivity and trauma responsiveness into like, not just like, not just leading themselves, but leading other people in that way, leading other people towards safer, more supportive, more enjoyable and mutually beneficial spaces where people feel like they can be more themselves. So, yeah, did I already cover like three of the questions that you have?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, just skip around a little bit.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, no. Okay, all right, I am letting go of the reins and TLC is in charge because I trust him implicitly. All right, all right.
Speaker 1:So I guess first question here I got down was when did you feel like you were destined to be a leader?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a great question.
Speaker 1:Was it more like with nursing wise earlier on? Yeah, in leadership type positions.
Speaker 2:I feel like once I got into well, even in high school, i was a leader in some places. I was just thinking about it, i was captain of the bowling team. Yes, i come bowl with me.
Speaker 1:Oh, i'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 2:Okay, i was captain, coach, captain of the bowling team. I was the field commander for the band my senior year of high school, so I was the one who was up there. We did a really big band too. We actually won first place at our last band competition and we beat out a school that was like three times bigger than us and they were really mad for our field commanding, which was cool. I don't think I've ever shared that anywhere. What else? Oh, i was captain of the flag color guard for three years freshman, sophomore and junior year. So it's funny because I'm like, oh, i haven't really led, but I've led a lot The jobs that I had. A lot of times I ended up moving up pretty quickly. So my first college job ended up being second college job. Actually, i got fired from Coldstone.
Speaker 1:No, I didn't get fired.
Speaker 2:No, i was back in my like very irresponsible days where I forgot to show up for a shift and then I was like forget it, i'm just not working there anymore, i don't act like that anymore. But that was 18 year old, i forgot I was not fired, honestly Yeah they called me and they were like, are you coming in?
Speaker 2:I was like no, I think I quit This job. Kind of sucks. And the reason that I didn't want to work there anymore was because their leadership was really that it was a family that owned it and they were all like super like they fought and they had different ideas of how the store should be ran. And the son owner was kind of a little friendly and to me and his wife didn't really like that And so, yeah, I quit. But anyway, my second job I was a work to the student computer centers and I worked my way up to manager.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Student manager, one of only a couple There were four of us, and there were what over a hundred people that were there.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you know something that's interesting coming out of that. I actually, before I left the bedside back in 2020, i was offered the lead and P position for the nocturnal, which would have been with like 15 plus nurse practitioners somewhere around there maybe 10, i don't know but actually turned it down because I was like that's not the direction I want to go. But I remember we had a pretty significant conversation around it of, like you know, do you this? this would be a really good leadership opportunity and you move up in the system.
Speaker 2:So I don't think I've ever like seen myself as a leader, and one of the things I know is that if I see a vacuum or a gap in leadership, like where things are not being done right, like where nobody's in charge, or where things are just kind of like wobbly or wonky, i cannot help but step in.
Speaker 2:Like in fact, it like the TSA line at the airport completely dysregulates me, because I get so frustrated. I'm like this could be so much more efficient, like this person could be over here and like you two need to be split up, and like like I want to make it run more smoothly. I want it to feel better for everybody involved, and so I think it's just part of my personality that if there is something that I feel like could be done better and no one's doing it, i want to do it, and that gets me into trouble a lot too. So, but also the people who have valued that like the people who have, who have You, have seen the benefit in that and really fostered it and like created safety from me around that Like I was a really good leader for them.
Speaker 1:I'm a really good employee. It took me a little while to realize that, but I've noticed, when there's a line for something, lines don't seem to bother you, when they're inevitable, but when it's due to inefficiency, or when you can tell like if they did it this way, everything would go so much smoother, that's when you get, that's when it's hard for you to let the autism Like. I say that jokingly, but it really is.
Speaker 2:That's the autism. That's the I can see in my head. I like it's a puzzle. That's one of my favorite things to do is puzzles.
Speaker 2:It's a puzzle and I'm looking at it and it's so clear to me which pieces are out of place and which pieces we moved around and like you need to shift your position so you can look at something differently.
Speaker 2:And so when people don't value that and they're like, oh you're questioning things, oh you're a troublemaker, oh you're trying to like, stir up stuff, i'm like, no, i am trying to understand why are we are doing things in a way that doesn't make sense? I'm not trying to like be a jerk, i am actually trying to help and the leaders that, the people who led me, who understood that, in fact, that's something you and I have been working through. I feel like that's a recent thing of like you understanding that when I question you, it's not coming from a place of like I don't trust you, it's coming from a place of I don't understand the puzzle pieces aren't fitting. And so could you please help the puzzle pieces fit so that I can go hard in the paint for you And I can be like I'll follow you to the end of the art Once you and I especially made that realization there.
Speaker 1:that really helped me to be able to lead easier, because I think in some ways it was kind of one of those I'm like well, if you trust me, why is it you question?
Speaker 1:you know a lot of different you know, and it's one of those I'm like I don't. and then when I realized, yeah, no, you're not questioning it, you just want to know the backstory, if you understand the reasoning and the rationale, it makes it so much easier for you to go along with which makes sense, but in my brain, at least initially, didn't. I'm like what's going on?
Speaker 2:Well and I think that's what a lot of the people who I answered to or reported to that didn't see me as a valuable leader. I think that's the thing that got really frustrating for them, because they thought I was like trying to usurp them or question their judgment. and it wasn't that. I was like it's hurting me, It's causing me physical pain to do something that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1:They could've done so much better.
Speaker 2:If you've done so much better. And, by the way, that's actually why I left the bedside, because I was starting to see, systemically, i'm like people are traumatized, people are like not okay, and I really wanna be able to help them And the system is telling me I cannot do it And in fact, if I do it I'm gonna get in trouble. And I remember I came home from one shift and I looked at you in the face, right, and I said I'm gonna get fired or I'm gonna lose my nursing license, and not for doing something quote unquote wrong, but doing something that's against the rules. That I don't agree with. And you were like, yeah, we gotta get you out of there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nursing versus university policy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, being like oh, you can't prescribe this medication, or you can't do it this way, or you can't do it that way, and I'm like that doesn't make why And nobody could tell me why, because that's the way it is.
Speaker 1:Best case practice.
Speaker 2:It's the best practice, but I'm like the thing that you can say to me to cause me to use the most of my nervous system regulation tools that I will ever use like the thing that just really dysregulates me so much is when people say it is what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i've noticed that. I figured that out myself. Here I say well, you know, it is what it is And it's like Or it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:When you say it doesn't matter, I want to throw things Like I, because I'm like it does matter, because we could just shift this or shift that, Like there's a way to make it better. So that's just being like it is what it is, This is how we do it. There's no better way to just get me to fight somebody. True, You know? Okay, I think I like I'll give you a really long answer.
Speaker 1:No, you give a great answer, i mean, and so kind of tailing along with that. then you know you felt like you had a lot of the natural characteristics and stuff to be a leader. So is it something that anybody can become a leader Or, you know, if they really want to work at it, or is it better maybe for some people to not try and be a leader?
Speaker 2:I think the saddest thing and also the most damaging and like I think this is intentional in a lot of places, but the most damaging thing we do is we teach people that leaders are the people at the top, leaders are the people in the front. Leaders have specific degrees, leaders have specific titles, leaders have specific certifications or qualifications, They have specific authority, because to me, the definition of leadership is that you move towards an objective, right, you go on a journey in a way that is in integrity with your organization or with whoever you are leading, with the people and resources you have. I actually get that from the books right here William McRaven, admiral William McRaven. He talks about it. He's the guy who wrote Make Your Bed, and I just finished just finished his book, like five minutes ago, on Wisdom of the Bullfrog, and he talks about that of, like, use the resources and the people you have to try to achieve an outcome or go on a mission, go on a journey, and do so within integrity, in alignment with the organization. And so every single person can be a leader, right, because every single person has at least one person that they can lead, which is themselves, and I think that we don't teach people that they can lead themselves And me learning that going oh I don't actually like me questioning other people is not a bad thing, and I can choose to direct myself and use the resources that I have at my disposal towards an outcome that I'd like to go on and make sure that the journey feels the way that I want it to feel And I can make sure that that is in alignment with my morals and my ethics and my values and the laws.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, i think everyone is a leader, everyone's leading themselves. It's just are you owning that you're leading yourself, or you're like, oh, other people are leading me, and I say that kind of sarcastically, but a lot of times we do that. We're like, oh, other people are leading me, other people have power over me, other people and that can be true. You still are able to lead yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, multiple levels Yeah other people can be leading you and you can decide do I wanna let this person lead me? People say, oh, my boss is such a jerk. But like he's the man in charge And it's like are there ways for you? Do you have resources at your disposal that, if you used them, you could maybe shift the way that that relationship feels? You could shift the way that you're able to move with that leader, or you could quit and go somewhere else and find somebody that you do like being led by.
Speaker 2:Like that's self-leadership. Am I choosing to stay here? Am I choosing to move? What decisions am I choosing to make? And I would say that that's probably been like my biggest growth space over the last year is how do I lead myself? And then also, how do I let myself be led? And I think for a lot of people, they absolutely have the ability to be a leader. It's just they've never asked themselves those questions because they've never, no one's ever, asked them those questions. They don't even know they can ask themselves those questions. So that's part of this podcast series too. Is everyone's a leader? It's just are you owning it or not?
Speaker 1:No, i think that's really fascinating. That's not something I've always kind of wondered, that how. It's like how do you determine who should be the leaders or what? And it's like, yeah, total flips. That's fascinating. I love that.
Speaker 2:Well, and when you look at our team right, our institute team there's nine 10 of us at this point. We all lead in different ways And there is nobody that is quote unquote in charge right At the end of the day, i have the highest amount of responsibility because I am the one who owns the business, so I have to own that right. I am the one who ensures everyone gets paid. I am the one who ensures that our doors stay open all of those pieces. So at the end of the day, i have the highest level of responsibility and accountability. I do not have the highest level of leadership. We're all leading and that's something really big, and I did not realize this until just recently.
Speaker 2:The people that we have on our team all are proactive in leading. They go hey, there's a problem here, this is what I think we should do about it. Or hey, this is something really cool that I saw. And how do we incorporate this in? Everyone on our team is actively engaged in the journey and the outcome that we have for the organization, which is to create safer, more supportive spaces, mutually beneficial relationships. Everyone's on board with that And no one on our team at this point is afraid to be like Lee, i don't know that that's the right call. I'm not afraid to go to the team and say, hey, i don't know the right answer here. This is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling. What do y'all think and feel? And I've never been on a team like this, and everyone who's on our team I mean, you're on the team I don't think a lot of teams run like this.
Speaker 1:No, and if I'm being honest, i think it does take a strong leader in general, because it is something if you have a lot of people giving out their advice at all times, it can. you know. have been in places like that where I had there was a weak leader, if you will, who just kind of sat back And a lot of stuff didn't really get done because everybody would kind of have different ideas and nothing would be decided. You know what I mean. But I think that's one of the cool things about this. It's like no, here's what we're gonna do, and it is somewhat of a consensus, but it is each person being able to look at a situation and be like okay, here's what I think we need, and like being able to then run with that. I think it's so much more of an efficient type way than having to either wait for one person to okay everything or have nobody there to be over at least paying at least some attention.
Speaker 2:like you said, having that responsibility and people just kind of, because I've been in places where it's like people go all six directions you get half stuff done and nothing gets finished, and I honestly think that's why we've had the growth that we've had, because we are all very unified in what we're doing and all of us care about ourselves and we own that. I went to a team member recently and said hey, i wanna give you a raise. I'm really big on giving people raises before they ask for them, because if somebody's already coming to you asking you for a raise, they already feel undervalued. Give your people raises before they ask for them. Big thing for me. So I was like hey, i think you need a raise and also, would you like more hours? I'm seeing that I think this would be a thing. However, i think we need to wait probably until August to do that piece, or until a couple months.
Speaker 2:And this person was like look, my priority is my family And so I gotta look at it and make sure that these hours are gonna fit in right. So, like, let's run some calculations, let's also make sure that you paying me more hours, like are you sure that's good from a cash flow perspective? And so many other places people would be like like there'd be leaders that would be like are you seriously gonna ask me if this is okay for me Like there's a lot of ego involved And for me I'm like man, i love that my team, our team, that they feel safe enough to be like. Look, i don't necessarily want more hours because my family's more important to me. Our institute should not be more important than your family. It's not more important than my family.
Speaker 2:I said this to you last week. I said if I have to choose between the institute which like really this does feel like my life's work But if I have to choose between the institute and our family, if I have to burn this business down to ensure that my family is even like a modicum of like a little bit better done, and I don't want any employee feeling like they cannot say the same thing or any team member feeling like they can't say the same thing. So I share that because we should be able to question And I really think that everybody on the team should be looked at as leaders And I do believe that the CEO, the founder, that whomever the positioned person is from a leadership perspective, they should be setting that standard.
Speaker 1:And I'm kind of talking here on the team. One of the questions I had here too is leading such like a dynamic team like I TPS what feels the most rewarding.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, i think it's kind of what we were just talking about and also everybody's doing what they're really passionate about, every I would say every six months. Now and Sarah, our ops director, we are starting to do this on a quarterly basis, but every six months we are looking at what people are doing and asking ourselves are they in their zone of genius? So when you're first starting a business, a lot of times you're the only person and you're doing all the things, and so you're doing a lot of things that aren't in your zone of genius. And let me define that for people Your zone of genius. This comes from a book from Gay Hendricks called The Big Leap.
Speaker 2:Your zone of genius is the thing that you are so good at that you love doing. It's that simple. It's like I'm in a category of one Nobody doesn't like me and nobody enjoys doing it like me. So we're trying to make sure that people are in their zones of genius, because as you grow, you can't do all the things, and so when you're bringing people in to help you, we should be giving things to people that it's their zone of genius. And we recently had this.
Speaker 2:We really looked at it and we're like we got a couple of people in places where they're in their zone of excellence, and the zone of excellence is below the zone of genius. The zone of excellence is I do it well, i do it really well, people notice it, i get good results, i don't mind it. It's actually, you know, it's cool. It's cool. If I did this for the rest of my life, i wouldn't be disappointed. That was nursing for me, and so the zone of excellence is a trap, because it's not really where you're supposed to operate. You should spend like 80% of your time in your zone of genius, but the way that our society is set up, that most of the time we spend very little time in our zone of genius, and so that has probably been.
Speaker 2:The most rewarding thing is watching team members just utterly geek out in our Slack channel over the things that they're getting to do And they're so happy and they're so excited. And they know that if there's something they're doing that they're not enjoying or that they're like, yeah, i'm like good at it, but I wanna do something, they know they can come to us and be like, hey, next review, next evaluation, next quarter, can we look at that, cause I really think I could be doing this, and also that's important because we're all growing and we're all learning. So sometimes you don't even know that something is your zone of genius until you get offered the chance to do it or you see someone else doing it and you're like oh, that's it. And so it gives us also an opportunity as a team to grow and then redefine what that zone looks like, what those zones are.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Yeah, i do remember when you were being a nurse one thing that you probably have noticed about Lee before she tends to be very humble with things, but you were an outstandingly gifted nurse And I do think some of that, like you were saying, was zone of excellence. It was something you were really good at, but it wasn't something you absolutely love. So I think that did kind of help keep you there, maybe even a little longer, because it's like, yeah, oh, how many blood bronze have you failed on? Oh, that'd be like zero.
Speaker 2:How many I failed on hold on.
Speaker 1:Phoneural biopsies.
Speaker 2:You're right, I never had an unsuccessful bone marrow biopsy which, if you don't know what, that is, don't go, look it up.
Speaker 2:No, it sounds terrifying to me It involves really big needles, like needles that look like knitting needles. But, yeah, i was really good at it. But part of the reason I was really good at it was because I didn't follow all the rules. Like I didn't break the rules but I also did it. You found the best. I found the most efficient and effective way, which also involved me like literally getting in the bed with the patient, but not in sort of like bad way, but I would have my knee up in the bed and my students would watch me and they're like this is weird and wild And they're like, also, it really works And yeah, but that was it right. It was like I loved procedures.
Speaker 2:And that was actually one of the reasons I left too, because I loved procedures and I could do procedures and I was really good at procedures. And they were like, by the way, you can't do procedures anymore because you're a collaborating physician doesn't do procedures, so you can't do procedures. And I was like, okay. So I remember there were nights that I'd be on call and somebody would need a central line, like a really big IV in their neck or in their groin, and I could do that. Or somebody would need intubated they need a breathing tube put in and I could do that. I knew how to do that. I would have to wait for and I would have to beg. I would have to call like six different doctors and beg them to come do these procedures. And they're like don't you know how to do this? I'm like I do, i do know how to do this, i'm not allowed.
Speaker 2:And so that's also something that's really rewarding, for team is like there's nothing that they're not quote unquote allowed to do And if they do something that I'm like I don't know, that that was the best idea. It's actually been really great for me to kind of step back and go like, okay, that's not the way I would have done it. Did it work? That's not the way I would have done it. Is it effective? Is it in alignment with integrity of the institution, the organization Cause? if so, i don't have to like it. Does it work for them? And that's been a really cool growth edge for me, too, to like be able to be the leader for them that I didn't have And to really allow them to practice to use nursing terms to their full scope and not be like oh, that's not in your job description, don't do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's one thing that's always driven me crazy, you know, be it with unions or anything like that, where it's like, oh, that's not, that's not your job, you can't really do that, and it's like, but I'm right here, i could do it real quick, and it's like no, no, no, no, no. And I I understand, especially when it comes to unions, that I understand why people do that, but that was always one thing when I used to work at a union, non-union factor. They were just driving me crazy. I'm like, standing here with the paint can, yeah, and they're like no, no, no, union job, you know, and that that. So it's like. It's always I feel like, where it's like I could just do it, it could be done, the efficiency is.
Speaker 2:May I add something that's? I know you have questions, but you're just, you're really sparking my brain here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm walking off for it.
Speaker 2:This reminded me of something about the Institute. Our priority is we're honest, we're kind, right, honest, kind, and we really prioritize justice and inclusion, and not from a not a performative space, not inclusion like, oh, everybody gets to be here. Not that We actually have very fierce boundaries to protect the people who come in, but what we don't have is barriers that prevents people from joining. So anyone can come into our space and that space is sacred, that space is really important to us. So we're going to set standards for that space And if those aren't followed, then we're going to have a conversation with you, and if they're not followed again, we're going to have another conversation And then, if they're not followed again and we can't like figure out why, then we're going to ask you to go. I say that because I see so many organizations that if I said what are the values you follow, their people would not be able to tell you what they are.
Speaker 2:And I worked for a university connected to a hospital system And when I started working for that organization, i was in the community hospital that they have. The community hospital is not unionized from a nursing perspective, that community hospital. One of the things that I could tell you was, is that what was priority? was the patients feeling like they were in their community, like the hospital was serving the community? So we treated everybody, everyone who walked in those doors, like friends, like people we cared about.
Speaker 2:I remember watching the chief nursing officer. First of all, we called the chief nursing officer Mary. Right, we called everybody by their first names most of the time. The doctors a lot of times were by their first names. There wasn't so much of a hierarchy. And when I remember watching the CNO, the chief nursing officer, one of the top positions, walk a patient who looked lost to their appointment, and I remember that somebody saying yeah, that's what we do here, right, if somebody's lost, we help them get where they're supposed to go. Even if you were doing something else, even if you were on your way somewhere else, even if you're late to a meeting, it's fine. If you're late to the meeting, just let us know. I walked a patient somewhere. Good, great, cool, i was helping someone. Fine, you relate to your shift Shifting over to the bigger non-community like state.
Speaker 2:You know on campus that hierarchy definitely started showing itself And that hospital in order to walk from one end to the other, and they've actually even expanded it, so it's gonna take even longer. Now I can't even imagine to walk from one end of the hospital the parking garage to the other end of the hospital took was a 13 minute walk And it was all these zigzags and turns. And I'm kind of feeling emotional about this because, like I remember, it was so confusing. I still didn't know how to get some places after 10 years. And you'd have patients come in and they'd be confused And if they asked where to go, like sometimes they'd be looking all around.
Speaker 2:You know what it looks like when somebody's lost And people would just walk straight by them. Or maybe somebody would stop and say like hey, where are you trying to go? And they say I'm trying to go here. Oh, okay, so you're gonna go down this hall, you're gonna take a left, you're gonna take a right, you're gonna take another left, you're gonna take an elevator up to the sixth floor, you're gonna walk across the hallway and then you're gonna take that other elevator up to the 10th floor and then you'll find it.
Speaker 2:And I remember I walked somebody somewhere and I was late and they were like where were you? And I was like I was walking someone. They were like you walked them all the way there And I was like, yeah, they were lost And they were like, okay, but like I wanna give you a report, i wanna leave and you're late, and it was just so much of that Again, that system was one of the best systems I've ever worked in. There were people that I absolutely loved working with patients, mentors Like I'm not actually dogging on the system itself, because I know the humans that were doing the best they could. I am lamenting the fact that, as leaders, we were like yeah, we're cool with this, we are cool with saying that we really deeply care about people and we really value like everybody should be treated the same And there's no such thing as a VIP patient. And yet don't call a doctor by their first name, don't call me doctor because I'm not a physician, and that's what did they say.
Speaker 1:It confused the patients.
Speaker 2:It was confused the patients.
Speaker 1:It's a mantix to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how dare you tell people you're more educated than they think you are?
Speaker 1:Oh geez. No, it's not like you're saying, i wanna be performing your surgery today. It's I'm doctorly, i'll be your nurse today. I don't think people can use that. It's not confusing.
Speaker 2:But anyway, i kind of went off, i got on a soapbox there. but like, really from a leadership perspective, your customers, your people know they can feel when what you say are the values and the ethics and the mission of the institution or the organization. when you say that's what it's about And yet it doesn't feel like that People can tell.
Speaker 1:Employees can do it.
Speaker 2:Employees can tell. One of the things we've been talking about and we're gonna talk about in our conference in November. So we're having it's called the Create Leadership Conference, november 9th through 12th here in Columbus, ohio. It's gonna be awesome. It's gonna be amazing 100 leaders max And again anyone can be a leader. So if you're like turned on by this conversation, you probably belong at the conference and you can find details on our website. So at that conference, one of the things that we're gonna be talking about is there's four tiers of. we talk about retention a lot. There's four levels of retention that when you look at retention you wanna think about. There are employees who leave, right. Employees who they're like I'm out. The second I can leave, i'm out. You have employees who are not leaving And what I mean by that is that they wanna leave but for whatever reason. they're not because of circumstances or whatever but they're done, but they haven't left. They're not actively planning to leave.
Speaker 1:Is it the quiet quitter? Yeah, like they quietly quit.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, that's actually perfect. They quietly quit and they're just like if something else better comes along, they are gone in a flash. They will not give you two weeks. They don't care Like they're out, they are emotionally out. They're no longer invested. And then the third level is employees who stay, and staying is not the same as the fourth level, which is thriving, right, employees who stay. They're not quiet quitters, but they'll do their job. They're not gonna go above and beyond. They're not gonna innovate. They're not gonna walk somebody down the hall. Right, they're gonna tell people to go. They're gonna show up. They're gonna do good work. They're gonna go home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hit their 40 hour, Hit their 40 hours.
Speaker 2:They're out. Finish your shift, they're out, but they will do good work while they're there. But we want people who thrive, people who are like when they wake up yeah, sometimes you have a bad day, sometimes I don't wanna go to work, right, but like, once I'm in it, i'm like oh yeah, this is what I love to do And people who are referring and talking positively about their work and who are excited to come to work And you talked about one of my most like what's been the most rewarding piece. People are excited to work for us and with us And I don't even say for us, because it's not for us. People are excited to work with us. They're excited to be part of our team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really nice both sides People coming in and people. It's when people wanna be there, they're excited to be there. A whole different feeling than a job where people have to be there. It's I have to support my family, i gotta work the line. It's like even when they're doing it well, if they're not loving it. Yeah, you talk to those people and it's like how's work? Oh, you know, it's the same, it sucks, it's this, it's that. It's like yeah, they don't seem that excited about it. I know the kind of people you're talking about. You know where. It's like yeah, they're there, they're gonna show up Monday through Friday. They don't miss days. They don't do anything, but it's all right. Yeah, they're like just a job.
Speaker 2:Just a job And I think this sad piece is I am completely screwing up your questions right now. Yeah, you're fine.
Speaker 1:Everybody's got their stuff, that's good.
Speaker 2:I think the sad part is like, the really sad part It's not just from the loss of productivity, It's not just the loss of all these things. But you talk about me being humble. I'm gonna not be humble for a second. I was a really good employee. I was a really good employee And I wanted you remember when I started there, like I wanted so badly to innovate and to do things Like I got my doctorate there, I implemented an entire like policy shift And I remember the whole time feeling like I don't know that anybody else cares about this as much as I do.
Speaker 2:I know, like I'm not going to say people don't care about their patients or things like that, but I don't know that anybody else really cares about. How do we make this a lot better? And there were a couple of my fellow colleagues that were like that. I think a lot of us were like that in the beginning. No, But you know, there's so much red tape and there's so much bureaucracy and there's so much.
Speaker 2:I used to joke that things that take should take three steps in three months, took 10 steps in 10 months because you had to have all of these different things in, and it's like we as leaders have way more capability than we give ourselves credit for, especially in positions like that, And there have to be several of you working together in order to facilitate those systemic changes. And if you're trying to do it alone, you can't do it. But I feel like on the academic side that was actually fun because I was given a lot more freedom over there. I completely shifted how we did courses I complete, I did some things. I was like I'm asking for forgiveness and not permission here And they were like as long as it works, like, and that there was a lot more freedom over there. Yeah, The thing over there was is I was leading people who didn't want me to personally lead them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or you know you're the teacher, you know it's not everybody's going to be.
Speaker 2:Now you're teaching people who aren't necessarily excited that you are the one teaching them.
Speaker 1:No, they just need the sheepskin, Not as much. they're excited to hear from you. Yeah, Even though a lot of students would be, and you'd have a lot of students come back. like you said, a lot of people give you five, but then there were some people who were not. Oh, when they'd rate me.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, they're not quite.
Speaker 1:you know, they did not dig your personality wise because you were very open and honest.
Speaker 2:It wasn't the Oh yeah, i was like y'all, i'm not. I was like I'm not going to. I said I know some of you want to learn this and we're not going to learn this here And here's why. And I did, i would explain it. But the same people who the leaders didn't like when I question things oftentimes people who are like, oh, but this is the way you're supposed to do it, it is what it is The students were like you're not doing, it is what it is, and I don't.
Speaker 2:That feels scary or uncertain And that's part of what I've realized is that they felt uncertain And I've really shifted now teaching, a lot of people really shifted in. How do you create certainty when you're teaching about? you're teaching in uncertain ways? How do you create certainty when you're leading in ways that people have never been led before? That is super important. People need to know this may feel scary to you And I'm not scared. So you may have never gone or looked at this thing or turned over this rock and looked at this trauma or done these things, and I'm not scared. Whatever we find under there, i'm not scared.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so one question here. I had kind of add these together here but is there any leaders I know you've mentioned a lot of different books, a lot of leaders that you've you know looked through, but is there any one leader in particular that you felt like has been really inspiring?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Yeah, oh, i might. I might lose some people with this one, and that's okay. Tony Robbins and not for the reason people are going to think, because Tony Robbins is. I've met him personally. I've seen him in a personal space. I've seen him when no one else was looking. You know, working as a volunteer on the crew. So the way that Tony Robbins events work which I really love this is, once you've been to an event, you can come back and volunteer and you get to be there for free and they don't pay you but they feed you really well. It's super pumped up. You learn a bunch of stuff Like they do a lot of personal development. I really love it.
Speaker 2:There are people who are like he should be compensating you And I get that. The days are really growing. The one thing that I'm not I don't take from him is just how dang hard he works and how many hours he works Right. Like I am a six hour girl, he's like a 16 hour dude and that's fine. And the integrity that I saw went all the way through right, like talking to the people who work really closely with him, seeing how he interacted with people when he was off stage. That felt really cool because the guy's a billionaire, right? He doesn't have to do any of this. He doesn't have to be on stage for 16 hours teaching people and coaching people Like he's. You know, his vocal cords are destroyed And yet he keeps doing this because he loves it.
Speaker 1:He's on a genius, zone of genius.
Speaker 2:And one of the things that the other things I saw him do that really inspired me is Number one he shares a stage, so he actually makes sure he stays in his own of genius and the places that he could teach, but it's more his own of excellence. He lets other people step into their zone of genius and teach at his conferences, and I think that's that's the best thing about trying to teach people about his own talent And it's really it's, it's a great thing for him to be a part of his lead and coach at his conferences. I think that's really cool. And then the last piece is I watched him at one of the events I was at where I was a participant. I watched him Coach somebody for two hours Who was really stuck, committed to their story. Can convince anybody to do anything Like.
Speaker 2:He has the capacity, he knows how to manipulate people, and he said that he's like look, we've been at this for two hours In the past. If I had somebody who was as resistant as you and I was trying to get them to walk through a door and we worked for it for two hours, i would have kicked you through that door, i would have manipulated you through that door And what I found over decades is, when I do that, you walk back through the door, you revert because you didn't take the steps yourself. He's like, so I'm going to be done, i am done trying to convince you or help you walk through this door. If you decide later you want to walk through it, you let me know, you let my team know. And I was like we can do that. I was like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't want to manipulate anybody in a change. I'm a master manipulator. You know this Without consent. I don't want to manipulate anyone without their consent. I don't even want to manipulate people with their consent. If they're like, fix it for me.
Speaker 2:Do it for me, and I think that that really applies to leadership too, because I don't want to lead people through coercion or manipulation without your enthusiastic, active consent. I know that there's a lot of like. There's been some stuff in the media about him, and I don't know if any of that is true or not. I am a big proponent of believing victims and or people that say that they have been harmed, and I also know that people are really complicated And I've harmed people and I've done things that I hope nobody writes an article about me, about, because I wouldn't be very proud if they were released, and I think leadership really is like that. I'm going to be the same person in private that I am in public.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, that's that is so huge, really being that authentic person?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so last question, because we've been talking for a minute.
Speaker 1:Well, how about go kind of a little office here? what about? what is the most difficult aspect of leadership for you?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, i love this question because I think the most difficult thing sometimes is I really don't want to be responsible. The most difficult thing sometimes is like I do want to cancel all my calls and stay in bed. I do want to watch Netflix all day like I do want to. You know, like when people are mean or rude, i do want to pop off, like I do sometimes want to start a fight. I do sometimes want to like just go into disempowered mode and make everything other people's fault and blame other people. I'm human and I have emotions and feelings and, like I, sometimes I just I don't, i don't want to, i don't want to, and so I think the most difficult thing is doing it when you don't want to And going. You know what. One of the questions I asked myself is this I say is my future self going to be happy that I'm making the decision I'm making?
Speaker 1:That's a great way to.
Speaker 2:Are they going to be like? thank you for doing it like this. That prevents me from saying things I don't want to say on social media. That prevents me from just just stepping in a bunch of places that I don't want to step in. It's the most difficult piece and also that's the piece that I really love helping other people develop as well, because that's what I've developed over the last year. I feel like now, if I say I'm going to do something, i do it. If I say I'm not going to do something, i don't most of the time. If I do make a mistake, i own it and I take responsibility for it and I clean up whatever messes I've made. And I'm also not me to myself anymore. Where before I used to like I don't like this term, but I think it tracks is like I used to be self-flage late, like beat myself up over it, and I don't really do that as much as you know been doing really good.
Speaker 2:Thanks babe. So we're going to have some really, really cool conversations with other people moving forward, and if it feels good for you to get details on the conference, you can head to the show notes below. Oh my gosh, something just flew in my face like a bug. Okay, tlc got it, it's all good.
Speaker 2:I love just recording podcasts of you because it's just utter chaos around our house and I'm like it's fine, the kids are leading themselves, it's all good, the dog's leading himself, they're fine, and so if you want to check out the conference, you can do that in the show notes. If there's a part of this that really resonated with you, we would love to hear about it, so send us a message, let us know. And now we're going to go have a fun birthday weekend. Cool, okay. Thanks y'all for listening. Thank you for interviewing me, babe.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah thank you, love you, bye y'all. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode Invitational. Head to our show notes to check out the offers and connections we mentioned, or you can just head straight over to Institute for Traumacom and hop in our email list so that you never miss any of the cool things that we're doing over at the Institute. Invitation to be well and to take care of yourself this week and we'll see you next time.