S4EP04: Leading Through Pain: Empathy and Invisible Struggles in the Workplace with Claire Stacey

Have you ever wondered about the invisible struggles of chronic pain and disabilities in the workplace? We're joined this week by Claire Stacy, an emotional resiliency coach who has personally grappled with these challenges. Claire generously shares her experiences and offers practical advice on how to lead effectively while navigating these often misunderstood conditions.

Chronic pain and invisible disabilities can bring a unique set of challenges to the work environment – from managing physical limitations to dealing with policies that lack consideration for such conditions. We dig into these complexities, spurred by Claire's personal journey of sustaining injuries in two car accidents and her subsequent four-year-long struggle for a diagnosis. We discuss the significant psychological impact of working in environments that don't acknowledge these challenges, the importance of validating chronic pain, and ways to facilitate more flexible and inclusive workspaces.

Our conversation extends beyond challenges and hurdles. We delve into ways to lead with integrity, acknowledging but not being defined by our conditions. Claire shares her perspectives on the importance of staying true to oneself and the organization, recognizing when it’s time to step back and when to push forward. We also discuss how emotions and feelings can guide our decisions. Altogether, this episode is a treasure trove of insights that can help reshape how we approach leadership and work in the context of chronic pain and invisible disabilities.

Claire Stacey is a life coach specializing in emotional resilience. She loves sharing ideas and opinions, and making genuine connections with other people.

Connect with Claire: 

Tik Tok - Connecting-Within. @clairestacey2

FB: https://www.facebook.com/claire.stacey.777 

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:06

Hi and welcome to the Becoming Trauma-Informed podcast where we help you understand how your past painful experiences are affecting your current reality and how you can shift those so you can create your desired future. I'm Dr Lee, and both myself and our team at the Institute for Trauma and Psychological Safety are excited to support you on your journey. We talk about all the things on this podcast. No topic gets left uncovered. So extending a content warning to you before we get started if you notice yourself getting activated while listening, invitation to take care of yourself and to pause, skip ahead a bit or just check out another episode, let's dive in. Hey everybody, welcome to this week's episode.

Speaker 2: 0:49

I am delighted to be joined by the lovely Claire Stacey I will let her tell y'all about herself in a moment and I'm really excited to have this conversation on this episode because this is something that is actually very near and dear to my personal experience, that I sometimes forget to even talk about, and we're going to talk about why I forget to talk about that. And, claire, you reached out to do the podcast with us and had brought up this topic, and I was so excited that you did. You're also one of our trauma informed, psychologically safe certificate students. So you've been in the world for a while and know what we're doing, and so I'm really excited to have this conversation with you, because you've got a really deep understanding of the work that we are doing at the Institute and trying to help other people feel safer, more supportive in their spaces. So thank you for joining us. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:45

I'm really excited, me too.

Speaker 2: 1:48

So tell us a little bit about you, and I like the question of like what are you passionate about? What lights?

Speaker 1: 1:53

you up. I love to talk about feelings and I am a emotional resiliency coach, so I'm teaching people to embrace their emotionality, to not allow these heavy feelings that we get to completely, you know, take you over how to live a fulfilling life while you're perhaps going through a crisis, and to just appreciate the messages that our feelings bring us. I spent a lot of years afraid of my feelings, running from my feelings, numbing, dissociating, and once I learned to tap into the message that they bring me, it was life altering, and I want to help others do the same.

Speaker 2: 2:35

You know I love feelings too. That's probably why we vibe, you know, and similar experience of like feelings being very scary and feeling dangerous up to a certain point. And I'm curious, this season we're talking about leadership and how we journey well right, using our people and resources and staying really in an integrity and doing things in a lined way with ourselves and like the organizations or the businesses that we're running. You're a business owner and I'm curious how you use your feelings in your practice of leading yourself. How do your feelings play a part in how you make decisions, how you lead, how you carry out your business?

Speaker 1: 3:20

I feel a lot of pressure as a business owner to get more clients, make more money, do more posting, have a website, have a TikTok, have a Facebook group, have all this stuff, and I find it, with my physical limitations, I find it very difficult. So I have to check in with myself and see if I am doing something out of basically feeling like I'm not good enough because I'm not keeping up with everyone else, or if I'm doing it because this is something that I genuinely want to do and I genuinely feel is best for me, because I think that we can. I can get caught up seeing everyone online and feeling like I'm not capable of performing at that level, and I have this little voice that says we don't have to be like everyone else. We can go at our own pace, we can do it our own way, and I choose to listen to that voice and to trust that voice.

Speaker 2: 4:20

So when you talk about getting caught up in what everyone else is doing, I think everybody experiences that.

Speaker 2: 4:27

For sure, yeah, I love what you're saying about like really turning inward and like paying attention to okay, what, what judgments is my brain saying? And like what feelings are underneath of those judgments? And like what do I actually want and need? That is something that I don't think a lot of people know how to do before being exposed to like this kind of work, and you have an added layer that a lot of people don't have and that and it's a layer that I have as well and that's the layer of an invisible disability, a hidden disability, and the chronic, significant pain that comes along with that. So I'd love to hear more about your experience around. You know how that happened and the impact that it's had, and just whatever you'd like to share, sure.

Speaker 1: 5:15

So I'm sustaining my injuries in two car accidents. About 20 years ago I was in one. I was by myself on my way to work and a truck with a flatbed was carrying a large concrete 40, like a 40 foot concrete hydro pool and he turned left in front of me and he didn't have enough time and the hydro pool was sticking off the back of the flatbed about six feet and it just caught the front of my car. So I sustained with lash and it didn't get better, it just got worse and worse and worse. And then, almost a year to the day later, the following January, my boyfriend at the time my ex-husband he was driving and we were coming down a different road to see his family and it was dark and it was snowing and an oncoming car Turns out. He hit a patch of black ice, swerved, he came into our lane, he crossed the center line, came into oncoming traffic, hit the pickup in front of us and then we hit that. So three of us collided and I was knocked unconscious by the airbag, I fractured my sternum, I flew up out of my seat and my seatbelt caught me on my hips and so that kind of messed my hips up right and then the seatbelt caught me on my right shoulder so my shoulder was injured. It also took me four years to find out that I had a mild traumatic brain injury and it was to my prefrontal cortex, where all my emotions and everything. I had zero emotion regulation. I was angry all the time. My husband could do nothing right. I was hallucinating. I was emailing old boyfriends because I had it in my mind If I just go back home to Little Britain, if I just go back home, everything will be fine.

Speaker 1: 7:03

It took four years for that to be diagnosed and it was really rough. So at first it was just my back. I went back to work for about a month but I was taking a box of robaxes set a day and I just I couldn't sustain that. I eventually went off work for about a year and a half and then I went back to work in a different role. So I worked for the Ontario government and they are obligated by law to accommodate anyone that is disabled. So I went back in a different role and then in 2006 to late 2008 I went off again. It was my back, my neck and my shoulders. I also sustained whiplash to my jaw so I was getting steroid shots in my jaw. I ended up I started going to a pain clinic for nerve burning in my shoulders and I was getting shots to the sympathetic ganglia right in the front of my neck to try and stop some of the arm pain. My arms were just burning and weak. So, again, I went off for two and a half years and then I went back in 2009 to yet another role that they provided me with and that worked for a while.

Speaker 1: 8:17

And then In 2018, it was the last time I went off and I had bursitis in both my hips, both my shoulders, my the joint injury to the right side of my neck. Like I was just, I was demolished, like all I could focus on was pain. Yeah, I just. I couldn't take it anymore and I worked and worked and worked. I cleaned houses for a few years. I I walked dogs. My husband at the time felt like we never had enough money and you know kind I wouldn't say forced, but strongly encouraged me to have another job. And so I took on these physical jobs that I couldn't do and ended up with tears in my shoulders from dog leashes.

Speaker 1: 8:59

But what really got me was I had a a procedure done at my pain clinic in June of 2018. That went horribly wrong. I've been going to that place for over 10 years, never had an issue, but when they put the six needles in my neck, I had severe, severe muscle spasm and I ended up with craniosacral syndrome. So all the muscles pushed my cerebellum into the forearm and leg, that hole in the bottom of your skull. And so not only was it like a sledgehammer to the back of my head with pain, but I was having constant panic attacks, because that's great. You know what that partner brain does. So it was like I was in my body. I could feel my eyes darting around the room. It was like almost hyperventilating. I was having constant panic attacks. So I was on a pretty high dose of clonazepam.

Speaker 1: 9:49

It took four months for me to be able to sit up. I just laid down and cried. I couldn't sit. Then I started to be able to sit with something behind my head for a few minutes at a time and I was told like you can just be, you can be on disability, you don't have to go back to work. These are severe enough injuries. And I considered it, but in the end I decided to fight my way back and so I went to several doctors and I found someone that it was a chiropractor near Toronto where I live that works with these type of injuries to the fit set joints in your neck, and it was my T2 that kept coming up. And then this doctor referred me to another doctor. I started to get Botox injections in my shoulders and my pecs and my traps and the back of my head to help take some of the pressure off the fit set joint in my neck.

Speaker 1: 10:43

And I will say that the number one thing that helped me regain some of my physical abilities and decreased my pain was I left my toxic marriage. I had a moment where I realized that if I'm going to get well, I cannot be in this relationship anymore. So within a few months I had separated from my husband and just not having that toxic energy around me all the time. My muscles started to unwind, I started to get stronger and I started to have hopes and dreams that I never thought that I would have. I gave up when you're in chronic pain all the time, right Like you just gave up and I just thought this is as good as it gets. I'm going to go to work. It's not a good marriage, but he provides a roof over my head and this is all I'm never going to have. But then I started to work on personal development and I started to love myself and I realized, even though my body may not function the way I want it to, I have value as a person and I deserve to be happy.

Speaker 2: 11:49

I just got chills right what you're speaking to. Thank you for sharing that. That's a lot. And what's really fascinating is there's actually a book called the Body Bears the Burden by Robert Scare, which is kind of an interesting name for a trauma guy. It's a very, very analytical book. So it's not like this isn't a lay person's book. I don't recommend it if you just want to learn about trauma and from a clinician perspective.

Speaker 2: 12:20

It was really eye-opening for me because I didn't realize how often car accidents are, especially from a whiplash perspective. If we have past trauma and get into car accidents and develop it, we are way more likely to develop whiplash and these symptoms that are very severe and the pain levels can be out of proportion with what we're seeing on imaging or what we can see with our eyes or see with our equipment. And so a lot of times as clinicians we kind of discount. We're like well, there's no way you're in as much pain as you're in because we can't find anything or we can't see anything, or even if they can see things, they're like well, it's not that bad. And that is one of the places where I would say I want to fight people in the medical community the most, or in the healthcare community the most, because, as somebody who has chronic pain as well and I don't have chronic pain from a specific injury.

Speaker 2: 13:29

I have something called Ehler-Danlos syndrome, which is a hypermobility syndrome.

Speaker 2: 13:34

So, I've dislocated every major joint in my body. I have a lot of scar tissue from all of those dislocations now that I've gotten older, so my tendons and muscles and joints just don't work the way that they're supposed to, and so chronic pain has been something that I've had since I can remember. I remember being in pain as a kid, and so it is hard to lead yourself when your experience inside of your body is consistently invalidated by people who, quote unquote, know what's going on with your body. And it sounds like you had a lot of experiences with the healthcare community over those years, and it sounds like you also had some phenomenal providers in there that really supported you. I just wanna like witness you around. I can only imagine what that experience has been like.

Speaker 2: 14:38

And another place that I see the invalidation happen is in the workplace. So it's I'm going to struggle to lead myself in a way that I know is best for me, because my workplace doesn't allow me to do that. So I'm a seven out of 10 pain today and I'm supposed to work a 12 hour shift. But if I call off of work, I mean I get written up. Maybe I've got short term of disability or I've got the paperwork, that HMLA or I've got things that allow me to take those days off, and there's still a lot of times a underlying sense of judgment from bosses, colleagues, other people for when we use that. So I guess I'm curious your experience with all of that.

Speaker 1: 15:24

So the one thing that I have struggled with actually recently is feeling like you're doing your best and it's not good enough for someone else. It's not good enough for my employer. For a while I was struggling with being late because I wasn't sleeping. I finally got a CPAP machine four months ago and I'm like a different person. It's absolutely life changing. But recently we had an attendance meeting because I get migraines. I'll just be living my life. I'm not even doing anything that I quote, shouldn't be doing, lifting something heavy. I'm just living my life.

Speaker 1: 16:00

And then I twist my, I tweak my neck and I get migraine pain. I just get this. It's not a sledgehammer level anymore, but I get pain in the back of my head, which I maybe I should have shared this with my boss and I didn't. But it sends me into a trauma response because my body remembers that serious, serious pain right and I get migraine symptoms. So I have a headache, my pupils change and I am not willing to put my body through going to work in order to make my boss happy and I told her I'm doing my very best, but until my neck just magically heals or I find something else that's gonna make this stop. This is what I'm going through. I'm trying my best.

Speaker 1: 16:47

And she said well, do you anticipate that this? You're gonna have more days off because of this specific pain? And I said yes, absolutely. And I said I feel like there should be a different category, like I'm not disabled enough that I should be at home all day, every day. Like I can work, but I am not at the same level of function as someone who has not been injured or doesn't have chronic pain. And I said I feel like there should be another category or something you know. And I said I've been with this. I've been with the ministry for 20 years. I am a good employee, I am good at customer service and I actually enjoy talking to people. I want to be here, but being brought in and sort of raped over the coals because I have this injury that I can't control. It's not easy and I'm fortunate I have a good manager, like she's compassionate and understanding, but she also has human resources to answer.

Speaker 1: 17:47

So you know she's just, she's gotta do her job.

Speaker 2: 17:51

Yeah, yeah, you know, and you bring up such a good point.

Speaker 2: 17:55

I think a lot of times when we look at situations like this, we look at them from one of two perspectives and forget that there's other perspectives.

Speaker 2: 18:04

So the one perspective is like well, I'm a leader or I'm a manager and I need my employees to show up and do work consistently, so of course, I'm allowed to be frustrated, or I'm allowed to like, desire employees who are able to function at the full capacity the vast majority of the time in the role that they're in. Right, okay, sure, and we also have the flip side of that, which is, you know, we should be able to accommodate every human where they're at, no matter what, and a lot of people are very unkind towards leaders when they're like well, they should accommodate everybody. And I think it's a really fascinating conversation, again, having been a leader, been somebody who, you know, makes decisions in an academic and a corporate space, and being on the opposite side as somebody with an invisible chronic illness that comes along with pain. There is a both and that we get to look at and you're right, like there gets to be this meeting in the middle and the way in which systems are currently set up don't really allow for that you know I remember-.

Speaker 1: 19:15

It's very black and white.

Speaker 2: 19:16

Right. I remember when I worked in the hospital, two examples when I worked 19 hour shifts on average. Sometimes I would do 13s, but most of the time I did 19 hour shifts, wow. And I remember one six month period like the kids just kept getting sick and like we were passing like stomach bugs around the house and I had to call off three times in two weeks, or three days in two weeks in a six month period. Well, five months later something happens. I have to call off one time, and that one time sent me over the edge of the attendance policy. Yes, and I'm like I am the sole income for a family of five. I promise you, if I can be here, I'm gonna be here. And I remember my boss saying like I don't wanna have to like write you up for this, because I completely understand each time that you haven't come in and the attendance policy says I need to talk to you about it, right? Well, three months later I'm horrifically sick. I know I'm not contagious, I worked in bone marrow transplant.

Speaker 2: 20:20

So I know I'm not contagious, but I'm really sick, like cannot get out of the bathroom. And I went in and worked in 19 hour shift and I had a colleague on that was a friend and I said, look, if I have to do a physical examination on anyone, can you do it for me? And I'll like do the rest of the work, but like, can you just be the person to touch the patient, because I don't wanna touch any patients, right? And they were like, yeah, like I've got you, but there was nobody. One, there was nobody to cover my shift and two, I was like I can't get written up, right. And that type of way in which we set up systems where we know that humans get sick, we know that humans get injured and we know that humans are coming into work with invisible illnesses every day and they're not disclosing them for fear of retribution or judgment or inability to advance later on, the system is really set up to not support people who have these things happen.

Speaker 1: 21:23

Absolutely. I asked my employer to, so I can't. It's very, it's difficult for me to use a computer and I asked for, you know, accommodation. Can we get voice recognition on the computer?

Speaker 1: 21:36

I for a long time felt like I was dumb because my body wouldn't allow me to do these things that I wanted. So I would see other women, like other people, in my workplace advancing and I was like I now see that I could totally do that. I could be a registrar in the courtroom, I could go back to work in the courtroom, I could be a group leader or you know something other than I'm a low man on the totem pole right now as a court services officer and for a very long time I just combined the two. My body doesn't work right. Therefore I'm stupid, and I didn't think highly of myself. I gave up and I'm recognizing.

Speaker 1: 22:23

Now I'm remembering how smart I am and how witty I am and how much I love to learn. I forgot how much I love to learn and, being out of that toxic relationship, I was not treated kindly by my husband. I was told I was a burden and all kinds of not nice things and I believed that and then I thought well, my body doesn't work, I'm just going to give up. Yeah, and I know that there's other people out there that feel the same way, like I can't keep up to someone else. Therefore, I'm dumb or I'm not as smart as you, or I don't have as much to add to the conversation. I don't want to use my voice because I don't feel like I'm as good as you.

Speaker 2: 23:09

I just really appreciate you bringing that in. We have tied productivity to our worth. I know that's what we're talking about. We're talking about how we're going to get in our society, and so for those of us who struggle to be as clearly productive in using the standard tools and resources were given yeah, that does something to your sense of self worth.

Speaker 2: 23:36

I used to teach 300 students at a time and it was fascinating to me how many of them probably needed accommodations yeah, or could have really benefited from accommodations that never even knew to ask for them. Hmm, because they had internalized the. It's me, I'm stupid, I'm not good enough, I'm behind, and so I just need to try harder. Yeah, right, for me it was always like I just need to push through the pain Right, and it wasn't mentally as much as it was physically. I just need to push through the pain. Part of the reason I became a nurse practitioner and didn't stay as a bedside nurse was because my body could not handle it Right, especially in the intensive care unit. Like you are turning people who are three or 500 pounds, like you are lifting and scooting and you're doing so much manual labor.

Speaker 2: 24:37

I don't think people realize how much manual labor goes into being an intensive care nurse, and that was one of the things I realized like when I left that job was I was like, oh my gosh, my body is so much happier now that I'm not in that situation and I had made myself wrong for that. Yeah, I was like, oh well, I couldn't hack it and it's like, no, the way in which you were created and the way in which your life has played out, that's not the right spot for you. And so something I've become really passionate about, especially leading our own team and creating programs, is you know, how can we like offer people accommodations, as many accommodations as possible, where they don't even need to ask for them. They are available for everyone.

Speaker 1: 25:26

Hmm.

Speaker 2: 25:28

And also can we go in individually and say hey, is there anything else that you need?

Speaker 1: 25:33

Right, that's amazing Because it can be so hard. As a person that needs accommodation, like you said, it is hard to use your voice and say I'm struggling with this, this is my challenge and I need help. Right, it's hard when you feel like it's your fault and there's so much, there can be so much shame associated with being disabled, right, and it's hard to say I can't do this. I need your help.

Speaker 2: 25:58

Yeah, and it's not even. You know, it's the physical disabilities, it's also the mental, and I think that we're doing our psychological and I don't want to call them disabilities, but things that change our ability to be productive, based on, again, the standard, what we write, the standard resources that we have. You know we talk about leadership. Leadership is using the people and the resources that you have, and for some of us, we are coming to the table with different resources. That doesn't mean they're worse, it just means they're different, and so I may actually, as an employee, bring some really great resources to the table that nobody even sees, because they don't look like the traditional things that we're looking for. It is, I think.

Speaker 2: 26:44

So you're right, it's so hard to ask, it's so hard to say like hey, as an adult, I have ADHD, so sometimes I squirrel. So if you send me, if you call me, and leave a five minute voice message, that's going to be like I'm not going to answer you for two weeks. Yeah, because I got to work up the spoons to be able to answer the message. However, if you text me, yes, after you call me and leave that voicemail and you're like hey, I just wanted to tell you this this is what it's about. Then I can go listen to it Right Right. So being able to ask for those accommodations.

Speaker 1: 27:23

Yes, yes, recognizing what you need. Owning this is me and this is okay, and I'm going to voice that need, I'm going to ask for that need to be met and then you know it's something the other person will. They want you to not. My eyes were opened when I met my, my now partner, my boyfriend, who is dyslexic, and I'm a big reader. I'm not big on watching videos, he watches videos a lot because reading for him is difficult and I thought, wow, and so I. Now I'm noticing on different websites and I have a copywriter friend who sent me her new program as a beta test and so for all her texts she has an audio at the bottom and if it's difficult for you to read, you can listen to the audio. And I'm noticing these types of accommodations, or whatever you want to call them, are becoming more common, because we're recognizing that we're not all the same and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 28:22

Yeah, and even that word accommodations. I think a lot of people here and they go like, oh, we have to do extra work for these people. No, that's not what that means. It's really not that much extra work, like I promise you, and the impact that it has, the return on investment in that little bit of work that you have to do in order to ensure that things can be used by everyone is, it's exponential. In our programs now we have we have a video that you can speed up the playback speed or you can slow it down if you need to. When we do. We have captions live. We have a transcripts that we put with every video that we do, you know, in our courses, and we have an audio version for people who want, who don't want the video, want to be able to listen to it but need to be like kinetically move around.

Speaker 1: 29:12

Yes, I'm one of those.

Speaker 2: 29:14

Yeah, I'm the same and so recognizing. Oh, I'm somebody who likes to listen to videos on 1.5 to two times speed, and that is how I learn. Or I'm somebody who puts the audio on and listens in the car. That's how I learned. That's how I process. There are other people who read the transcript.

Speaker 2: 29:31

Yes you know, and there's some people who need to go a lot slower through it. There's some people who need to listen to it a few times. So not offering replays right from an entrepreneurial standpoint, because I know we have a lot of people in that space listening. There's so much you can do for people who have invisible illnesses or disabilities or who need accommodations that, like they're built into the tech that we can buy now. They're so easy to do. And I have to remember to model for people as the leader. So if you put me on a stage, I can talk for six hours. I won't go to the bathroom. I won't like I'm good, right. And I have to be really conscious about that because I have to ask myself what example am I studying for other people? Am I modeling that we should all be able to go six hours without a break? So just because I can go for six hours doesn't mean someone else can go for six hours, and so what collectively do we need to put in place?

Speaker 2: 30:40

And just because I can go for six hours doesn't mean I have to right Like I should probably need to go to the bathroom every six hours, right, like that means I'm not drinking water, that means I'm not eating, that means I'm walking a lot and my joints are gonna be mad at me later. So like, just because I can doesn't mean everyone else can and doesn't mean any of us should, right, yeah, so how do you feel like your experience in all of this has influenced how you lead and how you run your business?

Speaker 1: 31:16

I run. I try to run my business without putting too much pressure on myself, like I said in the beginning, always we get caught up and am I doing enough? Am I doing too little? This person is doing posting this many times a week and I'm only doing this and I'm trying to give myself grace and I'm trying to just be authentic and do what feels right for myself and hope and trust that the right people are going to find me, rather than necessarily chasing them down, because that's what I've been trying to do and it doesn't always work out for the best. I'm still in a time of discovery of who I am and what it is that I wanna lead myself to and lead others to, and so I'm trying to remain. I have a vision, but I'm trying to remain open to other possibilities and not sort of get tunnel vision on. This is what I'm doing and this is where I'm going. I'm open to other opportunities and possibilities.

Speaker 1: 32:13

I didn't think I would be doing podcasts, yeah, and then I was at work one day, so I worked with jury panels and I just realized I love connecting with people, I love talking to people and having an authentic experience being my genuine self. I put on a mask for so many years. I pretended to be someone. I was not. I people pleased. I just felt like I couldn't be myself. And then I just thought maybe this is possible. And I've been on two in the last two months and I never thought six months ago that was never in my radar. So yeah, it's kind of like a balance. I try to have a balance between not doing like doing nothing. I don't want to do nothing towards my business, but I don't want to put too much pressure to keep up with everyone else and that just makes me feel bad. So I'm trying to be sort of in the middle somewhere.

Speaker 2: 33:06

What I'm hearing you say is you've created a work environment for yourself where you show up when you feel good enough to do it and you don't make yourself wrong for when you don't. Yes, which, yeah, hi, ideal workplace, right yeah?

Speaker 1: 33:20

Yeah, I've learned you can choose to push and push, and push, and I've done that. I did that for a long time and my body was just destroyed and I'm just not doing it anymore.

Speaker 2: 33:34

I just refuse.

Speaker 1: 33:35

I don't want to allow the fear of pain to stop me from doing the things that I want, but I don't want the pressure to be productive, to have me like decline. So trying to find a balance.

Speaker 2: 33:49

Yeah, I honestly think this is why so many people with chronic illness and or disability end up in the entrepreneurial spaces because we really don't fit. We don't fit in the system of you're gonna work 40 hours, nine to five. I mean, I'm just having visceral memories of how much pain I would be in some shifts.

Speaker 1: 34:17

You know I can't imagine, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:20

And being like, okay, well, it is what it is Right, and I've talked about that statement on here back in season three Like not that it is what it is, I'm accepting and surrendering. And, like you know, no, like it is what it is, like I like learned helplessness of this. I can't change this. This doesn't get to get better and, honestly, I think that the way in which, like you said, the system's very black and white, you're disabled or you're not, and for those of us who are in that, in between of, I can do some things and I can do some things really well, yes, there's not a lot of space for that in the traditional corporate system.

Speaker 1: 35:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:05

And so.

Speaker 1: 35:05

Very true.

Speaker 2: 35:07

One of the things I really hope to see, you know, one of the things we're working toward from an institute perspective and this is why we're putting on our leadership conference in November is really helping leaders start to think about these things of okay, well, the system is black and white and yes, there are governmental laws, and yes, there's things that have to be in place, and also, what can we shift?

Speaker 1: 35:28

Yes.

Speaker 2: 35:29

You know, if we have two people who have are both supposed to be here 40 hours a week, like they both have full-time positions and their job duties are X, Y and Z, and the one person struggles to do Z but loves doing X and Y, and the one person struggles to do Y and Z but loves doing X, why can't one of the people do X and the other two and the other person do Y and Z? Like, why can't we set things up like that?

Speaker 1: 35:53

Right.

Speaker 2: 35:54

Why can't we look at who is best doing what Instead of having, okay, we've got these purely prescribed roles and you have to follow this, and I understand that as organizations get bigger. In you know, sometimes you have institutional policies and procedure. Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not sitting here saying like, oh, let's just, let's just change it, cause it's super easy. That's not what I'm saying, and there are things we can do as leaders to ensure that we are creating a workspace environment that feels as safe and supportive and is a place that people can thrive.

Speaker 1: 36:34

Yes, and you know acknowledging and encouraging people, letting them know you're doing a good job. Yeah, this is what you would sell at and you're doing a marvelous job, rather than you know. We really wish you could do X, y and Z.

Speaker 2: 36:50

Right In almost every other plate. This is a mindset shift because it, for so many of us, were taught to try to fix your weaknesses, and one of the things I've learned is I figure out what do I need in order for my weaknesses to not be hindrances. And beyond that, like once I've sorted that out, how does this weakness, how do I mitigate this weakness, not how do I get really good at it. How do I mitigate the effect of this weakness? Maybe it's by hiring someone else, maybe it's by putting a system in place, maybe it's by whatever.

Speaker 2: 37:28

Once I've done that, my focus is on what I'm really good at Right, and so often in these traditional roles, what we actually ask people to do is we're not like, hey, you're really good at this, let's have you do more. Or how do we figure out how to help you do even more? We say, okay, well, you're really good at this, but you're not good at this, so I need you to spend time getting better at this Right. Yes, and that actually encourages mediocrity, and it encourages burnout too, because if I was good at it, if I, like you, think I haven't tried to get better at that by now yeah, it's demoralizing really Right, like I'm trying, man, I'm trying.

Speaker 2: 38:09

Right, and all of these pieces of what we're bringing to work, whether it's chronic pain or chronic illness or whatever. Yeah, maybe we just have kids. Maybe it's a kid or a partner or a family member that we're also caring for, because that can affect us Absolutely. How do we allow people to just be more human?

Speaker 1: 38:30

Yeah, In their work. Yes, and let's be real, when it comes to a sick child and one of the parents has to take a day off, it's typically the woman? It is typically the woman, and it's yes, that's not taken into account when you are counting up people's sick days. Are you male or female? Do you have children or not? Do you have? You know? That's totally unfair.

Speaker 2: 38:56

Yeah, actually, in academia it was. It was a breath of fresh air. It was if you're sick, you're sick. You know, if you're sick, you're sick. Now I'm sure that if I had been sick enough that we would have had a conversation around it. It was a lot more lax of like if you're sick enough to not teach, cancel your class If you got to work from home today. Work from home today, that's another place that we didn't even touch on. That is such a big thing.

Speaker 2: 39:22

But this whole, we need people to return to work. Why? Why do we need people in the office? Because I agree there are some places where it actually makes more sense to have people in person. I taught nursing, I taught skills skills lab on the computer. I taught people how to suture over Zoom. That's not ideal. That's not ideal. That's a return to school situation. Everybody needs to be on campus for that one. There's so many things that we say you need to be here because it encourages community and connection, we have a better idea of what's going on, or it increases productivity, and the data on that really doesn't track no.

Speaker 1: 40:10

People are more productive when they can be at home, not racing around trying to get to the office, getting the kids ready for school, distracted. If you can be at home and comfortable and not you feel like you're giving up your time in order for something else, then you're more productive at work. I don't know, maybe this is. I think some of these companies are just justifying having these buildings that they don't really need to have this rent for. It's like well, we got to fill them with people. Well, maybe you downsize, maybe you get rid of the giant building and you get a small building and we all come into the. We take turns coming into the office once a week, if that is really all we need to do.

Speaker 2: 40:50

Right. Yeah, to be fair, there are people who work better at work. Yes, I'm one of them. Making that an availability for An option, right An option.

Speaker 2: 41:03

But, like, can we have the option? Can the people who are like extroverted and who love like coming to a space and connecting with other people, can they have desks and can other people be at home and like, yes, we have to make it weird, right? And I guess another way to say that is do we have to make it standardized? And I think we have this idea that we have to make everything equal and work for it to be fair. And one of my, one of the statements that you know we haven't gotten there in trips yet, but you're going to hear me say in, like September, equality isn't fairness, right? Like we want equity, we want inclusion. What barriers are in the way of preventing people from thriving and participating? Right, and every single person in our program may need something slightly different. Can we make a conscious effort to try to figure out however we can to support people in those different needs?

Speaker 1: 42:07

Right.

Speaker 2: 42:07

Not guaranteeing we sometimes sometimes we can't meet a need. And people are so appreciative when they're like, hey, I have a need and you take a minute, and you're like, hey, we looked at trying to, trying to like meet that need and we can't. And here's why. Yeah, Most of the time people are just like thank you for trying.

Speaker 1: 42:28

Yeah, I feel seen. Right, I feel seen, and instead of like nope, not going there, it's like well, we, you know, we tried, we tried and it's just not feasible.

Speaker 2: 42:40

And not just like we tried, but like here's what we tried, Right. Because I think a lot of times people here and I'm saying here's what we tried, because I just implied that we say we tried, Show them how you tried, because people are used to getting that lip surface of like, oh well, we looked at it, but we can't, instead being like hey.

Speaker 2: 42:57

I called this person and this person and I tried this and here's where else I went and I can't find a way to do this and if you have an idea, let me know. Hmm, oh yeah, that's amazing. We've had people come to us and say like, hey, have you ever thought about doing something like this? And we've looked into it and it like costs too much from a where we're at, business perspective, or like it's just not feasible with our current staff. And I'll go to people and I'll say, hey, that's not something that we have the capacity for right now. And if you think of an alternative option, please let us know, because I would be so happy to do this. It's just we don't have the capacity to do it like that. Right, yeah, Thank you for coming on here and talking with me about this, and I'm actually reflecting that my favorite part of this is that we didn't talk about how hard pain is, and that might sound weird.

Speaker 2: 43:53

I feel like every other podcast episode or every other time I talk about chronic pain and talk about my illness, it's from the state of like this is how hard it is and like this is how much you know, and I want to start having different conversations. Like my trauma, my illness, is the least interesting thing about me. Like my pain is the least interesting thing about me. What is interesting about me is what I've learned from it and how I now operate in the world because of it.

Speaker 1: 44:18

Yes, I think it's like it's a given. Living with pain and disability, not being able to do what you want to do is hard, yeah, but that's not who we are. It doesn't define us. It's something that I have to live with, but it's not who I am as a person and, if anything, it's made me resilient, it's shown me how strong I am, and then if I decide I want to go back to work, I'm going to find a way. If I want to run a business, I'm going to find a way.

Speaker 1: 44:45

Yeah, I had someone say to me, someone close to me, and had a day when I was really in a lot of pain and I was crying and I was just so frustrated that I can't do what I want to do. And they said you know, I see your living with pain as a gift, and I was just that, maybe so mad. But he said you can appreciate the beauty of just of going for a walk, because that's something that you weren't able to do for years. I could only walk for 15 minutes at a time and now I'm at the point where I can go hiking in the woods for two hours and it's incredible. I appreciate being able to sit up without something behind my head.

Speaker 1: 45:27

These are small things that if I hadn't been through that, I think that we tend to focus on, you know, and of course it's hard, and we can focus on the negative, or we can try to see some of the positive that's coming from this, because we're living it anyways Right, like it's here. It's not, it's not magically disappearing tomorrow. So if we can shift our mindset to focus on, ok, well, what are the good things, or what could be the benefits, or what has this allowed me to teach others, yeah, I think, I think that's cool.

Speaker 2: 45:59

Yeah, the thing that popped in my head as you were saying, that is, we can acknowledge that the pain is hard and instead of what so many of us try to do, is we focus in on how do I make the pain go away, or we focus in on how do I push through the pain? Yeah, and I think this just wraps everything we've tied up we talked about in a pretty bow. What if the focus is on being curious about if I'm going to be in pain for the rest of my life? How can I live my best life with that pain present? Yes, and how can I work and carry out my purpose and my passion and create a living for myself in a way that helps me be well resourced around that pain or that illness? Yeah, and reframing it like that just gives me so much hope, because I believe it is fully possible for me to have a day in my life where I wake up and, from that point forward, I don't have chronic pain. I believe that's possible, yeah, and I'm good if it's not Right.

Speaker 1: 47:18

Right.

Speaker 2: 47:19

Yes, thank you, claire. Thank you so much for coming on here. This was phenomenal. We are going to drop your contact information if anyone's interested in learning about emotional resiliency and working with you, because I promise y'all she's phenomenal, and if you are interested in learning more about the Create Leadership Conference that I have talked about here and there three day leadership conference here in Columbus, ohio, with us, november 9 through 12, 2023. It is going to be absolutely incredible. The humans who have already joined are awesome. Our whole team's going to be there.

Speaker 2: 47:56

It's going to be unlike any other leadership conference you've ever been to because, oh, and guess what? There's lots of built-in accommodations, so you don't have to ask for things. We just thought about it beforehand. Nice, right. And if you need something else, we're going to have different styles of seating. We're going to have places you can stand up and move around. We have lots of movement breaks, lots of food, lots of rest, recovery. We've got lots of really cool things built in that are because we know that every single human needs different things in order to thrive.

Speaker 2: 48:28

It's going to be phenomenal. Yes, so good. So if you're interested in that, you can check that out below and we will see y'all next week. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Invitation to head to our show notes to check out the offers and connections we mentioned, or you can just head straight over to InstituteforTraumacom and hop in our email list so that you never miss any of the cool things that we're doing over at the Institute. Invitation to be well and to take care of yourself this week and we'll see you next time.