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Hi and welcome to the Becoming Trauma-Informed podcast, where we help you understand how your past painful experiences are affecting your current reality and how you can shift those so you can create your desired future. I'm Dr Lee, and both myself and our team at the Institute for Trauma and Psychological Safety are excited to support you on your journey. We talk about all the things on this podcast. No topic gets left uncovered. So extending a content warning to you before we get started if you notice yourself getting activated while listening, invitation to take care of yourself and to pause, skip ahead a bit or just check out another episode. Let's dive in. Hey everybody, welcome to this week's episode. I am so delighted to have just an amazing guest with me today. So this is actually part two. We're doing a companion podcast, which is something we've been doing in the last several episodes and is so fun. So invitation to, if you want to hear the first part of this conversation, head to Shannon's podcast We've got it linked in the show notes and then also feel free to just start here and then head back over there whichever direction feels best for you. I have Shannon with me here today.
Speaker 2:Shannon, you and I have been friends collabs for a hot minute a couple of years and you and I actually got got together for like the first time.
Speaker 2:It had been probably about a year, right, yeah, yeah, about a year in person, and we were just talking and I was like, oh my gosh, we have to do a podcast around this, because we have both heard from so many people this year about how hard of a year it has been to this point for entrepreneurs and just for business in general, and even setting aside like pandemic stuff and all of the political and financial stuff that's happening, there's been even more that, I feel like, has played a part in just how difficult business has felt, and you and I both had pretty like tough periods we just went through, and so we wanted to do an episode around how messy business can get at times and how you can like really move.
Speaker 2:How do you move through that? How do you move through it when you do everything right and it still doesn't work, and how do you like stay the course? I'm just realizing, because I got really excited and jumped right in Shannon. I didn't tell anybody what you do or who you are, any of that, so could you please tell everyone what I left out? That'd be great, yeah.
Speaker 1:So thank you so much for having me on the podcast. So my name is Shannon Mattern and I am the founder of the Web Designer Academy, where we help ambitious web designers create profitable, sustainable freelance web design businesses, and I started my business back in 2014. I was working in the nonprofit sector in healthcare yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I worked for a professional nurses association here in the state of Ohio and I was there for about seven or eight years before I really just kind of got to this place where I was like is this it? Is this all there is? Is this why I did all the things a good girl is supposed to do, like get good grades and go to college and get a good job out of college and get a mortgage and do all the things and to be at this place feeling like very unfulfilled in terms of I don't feel like I'm making a difference at all in anything that I'm doing, and feeling like very trapped in archaic corporate systems that I didn't understand why they were the way they were, because they made absolutely no sense, and it was like very soul crushing. I guess you could say yeah. So I decided I had my background was in marketing and communications and I had built our company's website and I had one of our vendors say, hey, who built your website? And I was like, oh, I did. And he goes do you do any work on the side? And I was like, well, sure, I can. And that's kind of started my side hustle as a freelance web designer.
Speaker 1:And then I told a girl at the gym she's like oh, what do you do? And I'm like, oh, I'm in marketing and communications. And I said, oh, and I do web design on the side. And then I felt like I like lied to her. My face got so hot because I was just like, well, I don't really do that. It was just this whole long path of like I'm an imposter, I'm a liar, but I actually can do that, I am delivering. How much do I charge All of these things? And then this long journey of like teaching other people because I didn't feel like I could actually take money directly from clients because I was a liar, because I didn't go to school for this All the way to doing a lot of work on myself to get to the point where I'm like I've healed a lot of things and now I feel ready to help other people heal those things too.
Speaker 1:And that's really what we do in the web designer academy. I mean, I'm a business coach and mentor for women web designers who really have gone through a similar journey, and I'm just a few steps ahead of them. Like I certainly don't have it all figured out, but I figured out a lot of stuff. I know the things that I'm going to need to figure out over and over and over again. And that's, you know, that's one of the things that, like, when I heard on your podcast recently that you were like this is the leadership season, I felt so compelled to reach out to you to be like let's talk about this, because I feel more, even more, called to step up and lead in the times that, like my business feels like it is just falling apart. Because if I don't talk about that, I feel like I'm not leading the way in a way that feels an integrity to me.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm I feel very emotional hearing you say that you know we talked on your podcast a little bit about just the like showing people the whole thing, and I think that there's this fear that like, oh my gosh, if I show people that I'm struggling or I'm having a hard time, like that's the imposter syndrome part right, like they're going to not want to hire me, they're going to not want to be anywhere near me.
Speaker 2:And this is the thing that is missing out of leadership being the balance of being able to be a sturdy, regulated person for those people who are following you or who have invested in what you're doing, and also honoring your humanity and honoring the fact that you are a. I just try to remind people I'm like we are mammals, we are animals that just have a little bit of extra ability to think about things. You know, we have these, these bodies that just have all of these chemicals and these emotions and these responses and reactions that are constantly happening. And when we don't honor that as leaders, we just do such a disservice, like to both ourselves and to other people, because other people see us and they go well, they're emotionless, they're sturdy, they never struggle, they never like everything's always working for them. So, in order for me to be successful, I must figure out how to stop having emotions, how to let it always be good, how to always be sturdy, and I'm like. That could not be further from the truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like just because I'm experiencing a lot of failures or unwanted outcomes right now in my business doesn't mean that I'm not qualified to help you through yours or help you create the success that you want. Can you say that again?
Speaker 2:Like for real. Can you say that?
Speaker 1:again, yes, just because I am currently experiencing failure or unwanted outcomes in my business right now does not mean that I'm not capable of helping you create the outcomes you want or create the success that you want. And I had to really come to that conclusion because when I shared earlier on our podcast, together in the first two quarters of 2023, I did two launches for the Web Designer Academy and both launches I got one student enrolled in each launch. So that's two launches, two new students when my business, to financially be okay, needed 20. And then to sit there and think, well, I teach people how to sell and how to get clients and how to make money and how to like run their business, and yet here I am, over here not creating the outcome that I'm teaching them how to do.
Speaker 1:And I had to really separate those things because they're not the same. They're not the same thing. I tried some things that did not work. That doesn't invalidate my experience and how I coach and what I do, and to me it would be worse to not talk about that. I experienced these failures and unwanted outcomes because then I'd probably I'd feel even more like a fraud. I'm like no, I have to tell you what happened and tell you what I learned from it, so that we can move forward.
Speaker 2:You know you're speaking to something that's been a growth edge for me, like stepping into this leadership space, which is, you know, at the beginning, making sure that I was not pedestalized right. Like reminding people that I was human at every opportunity. And that was actually done out of a trauma response of like I don't want anyone to think that I'm better than they are, or I don't want anyone to like be jealous or like feel bad about themselves because I'm doing so well, and like it is hard for me to say these things out loud. So this is me being very vulnerable. Honest. I did that out of a people pleasing response of I don't want anyone to feel bad, that things are working well for me. And then, when things got hard, it was the opposite of like well, I don't want to tell everyone that things are kind of hard, and like struggling right now, because then they're not going to want, like they're going to feel bad for me. And like I just realized how much pressure I was putting on myself to try to control other people's perceptions and emotions in response to me.
Speaker 2:And the other thing was is when people would say, oh my gosh, you're doing so well, your business is doing so great, you're so successful. There was so much like guilt and shame that would come up around that, because it's like like I'm I didn't pay myself this month so I could pay team. Or like I had to pay team four days late and like that is something I've never had to do. Or just in these seasons of things feeling really tough, I kept feeling like, oh well, I'm not successful because I've had to do these things that I've said I'm never going to do. And then I realized that is such a dangerous game to play as to be like what I would never do. That Like you don't know what's going to happen in the future, you don't know what's going to come up. And so these assumptions that a I'm not successful because we've hit a couple like rough months that's absolutely not true, right. If the only measure of success is how profitable the business was these last three months, yeah, we failed. There's like 97 other measures of success that we passed with flying colors, right.
Speaker 2:Or if I'm going to say, you know, I need to hide these things from people because I should be ashamed or embarrassed, that's not good leadership, because what that's doing is requiring me to not be honest and to not look at things from like, a rational, logical perspective, and that wasn't the kind of leader I wanted to be. And so when people are like yeah, like it looks like the business is going amazing, I'd say like yeah, I absolutely love it, we're having so many amazing things happen. I'm like yeah, like like pieces and parts are definitely in flux and you're right, this is a successful business. I'm curious, because you know the doing everything right and the good girl piece. When you went through this experience and you were like I did everything right and it didn't work, what stories did your brain tell you that you kind of had to work through, like that you kind of had to look at?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the first one was that I did everything right.
Speaker 2:That is a big.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting thing to think, because I truly thought that I'm like I know what I'm doing, I did everything right, I know what to do. If this, then that like all very much like I got this. And because I was believing that before the outcome that I didn't want, I was not open to what other people were saying to me. In the spaces that I put myself in to for the purpose of coaching and feedback, you know, in mastermind groups and coaching programs, you know I'd be, I'd show up and I'd be like I'm so excited, here's my plan, here's what I'm doing XYZ. But check all the boxes, I've got it all done. I'm like motivation and doing the work has never been an issue for me. I'm like very driven in that way Instead of like taking medication for anxiety. I just don't work right. So I get stuff done.
Speaker 2:And hyper arousal. Man, it's a good job, you're right.
Speaker 1:And then people would say things like have you considered X and I? And I'd feel a little resistee, but I'd be like no, I mean no, like we don't do that, like I know what I'm doing. I don't say I know what I'm doing, I'd just be like no, my business doesn't run that way. It's very like black and white or we don't do that or we've tried that. All of these things and like multiple people would say the same thing to me and I would still know better. So I was not open to feedback at all. It was like I'm showing up to these spaces wanting your validation and approval, not your feedback.
Speaker 2:But I didn't know it at the time. I've never. I've never done that, shannon, ever in my entire life Like I have no idea. I mean no, like I've definitely had the same thing of. I just want you to tell me that my idea is like the best thing since sliced bread. And then when people are like, oh, but have you actually? That happened this morning and I was like, okay, actually, I thank you. I don't like your answer and also thank you because I appreciate your perspective. It is so hard when you're like I have to do everything right and when I'm also hearing in, that is, I have to know the right answer without help.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah for sure, which is, you know, upon reflection, is a very self protective thing Absolutely, because I think it kind of leads back to that earlier conversation, like I, I should know what I'm doing. Like if I'm helping other business owners run their business, I should know how to run my business. Yeah, and it's just kind of building off of a couple years of like oh, and your brain wants to tell you about all the time things worked and it was good, and like kind of sweep under the rug those times that you actually did fail at something, and just be like, oh, that one doesn't count Right, and then tell yourself, like inflated store, not well, maybe inflated stories about like numbers and you know things like that to be like, okay, well, for this we should expect this. So like, if I'm being really honest, I did everything right. Isn't true? The truth is I did a set of things, I took some actions and they resulted in this thing. That's the truth.
Speaker 1:And now I have a set of data to look at and be like what thing that I, that I did, created this outcome, and have to look at it really objectively. And one of the hardest things to look at was I increased my price to a point that overshot my ideal client, and I also teach my students how to raise their prices and how to get an integrity with their prices, and so I felt a lot of cognitive dissonance. Yeah, when I'm looking at like my business and I'm like I raised my price to $10,000 for a year of coaching with me, but the people that I'm talking to they're not there yet, even though when they come to work with me, they're going to go through the transformation to be able to charge five figure prices for their projects and more if they want to, if that feels good to them. That's the transformation they're going to go through. But I raised my prices and then just asked them to like trust me, instead of me being the one to give on the front end and lead them through that transformation.
Speaker 2:This level of self reflection right and just being super honest with yourself, and what I don't hear you doing in this is being mean to yourself. I mean I'm sure there were probably moments you were mean to yourself, like I'm not on our past conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, oh, I shouldn't have raised my prices. I should have known better, I should have looked at the data before. I should have listened to other people like all the shoulds Right. I was in that place of like I really screwed this up, Like I've really harmed my business by having thinking I know everything.
Speaker 2:I want to say a thing here that I just want to put a little like content warning around it, because this might feel confronting to some people. When we talk to ourselves like that, that is abuse, that is internalized violence against yourself, right? Because if you had someone else outside of you talking to you, the way that you are talking yourself like that, in that tone of voice, with those words, with that pressure, you know that if we watched that, like on a movie, would be like that's abuse. And yet the amount of times that we do that to ourselves and we're like no, well, this is just to help me get in line, right, this is just to help me not make that mistake again. There is so much conditioned acceptance around the level of internalized violence that I see in our brains, and especially in entrepreneurs, because we are our own bosses. So when you're like okay, I need to lead myself, if the way in which you've learned to lead yourself is through that very unkind, harmful language or restrictions or punishments for yourself, it doesn't work. The way in which you said the first part of like I'm going to be open and honest with myself about this feedback and I'm not going to be mean to myself. With this feedback I'm going to go. You know what other people tried to give me advice and I was not receptive to that advice and that advice very well could have helped me have a better launch right there. That is objective, that is rational, that is something that I can then take forward and shift how I'm showing up.
Speaker 2:There's actionable things in that saying well, I should have been more realistic or I should have like I should have. A lot of times there's when you try to action that out, there's pieces and parts of yourself that you're saying I need to shift who I am as a person. Let me give an example of this, because I just did this this morning with TLC. You know I was looking at something we had like a big disappointment happen and I was like I should, I should have not been so optimistic, I'm too optimistic, I need to learn how to be less optimistic. And then he was like or you stay as optimistic as you are and you surround yourself with counsel that is more realistic, and so when you come to them with optimism, they can help make that plan more realistic and help you kind of put that lens on it without you having to internally change who you are, like cut off part of who you are as a human.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh, that's a way easier way, because if I could be less optimistic, I would be less optimistic by now. I don't think it's going to happen. So, you know, I'm hearing you say that. Just really, looking at, okay, you know I'm telling myself this story of I did everything right. And in reality I did everything I did, you know, and the outcome was this, and it's not about if it was right or wrong, it's about did it work or did it not? Yeah, what else did you kind of just pull out of that experience? Like, were there any other assumptions or stories that you noticed that you were telling yourself around it, that you kind of went, wait a second, is that true?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, for sure, because that thread of looking at this as data of inputs and outputs, like very objectively, I was too in it to see that. Yeah, you know. And my team member, erica Nash, who's an incredible human I'm so grateful to have her on my team she says she always says like it was our first pancake, like for the first launch. She's like it's our first pancake. The first pancake always comes out a little raw on one side and with the weird bubbles and like burnt on the other. Yeah, and that's how you gather the data to decide do you need to put some more water in the flower to adjust the heat on the pan, like, and she just says things in a way that is just like, it's just not that big of a deal and I'm like okay, yeah, on one hand, yes, this has affected our finances, you know, and I get to deal with that as a, as the business owner. But on the other hand, what do I need to adjust for the second pancake and our second pancake didn't turn out the way I wanted. This whole thing of like worked and didn't work, like, even that terminology is like, so binary. It's like, yeah, it's like wanted outcomes or unwanted outcomes, because something can work but still not be what you want. So that's what I really had to get aware of, like how I was talking about things. But the only way I could do that was to actually like be receptive to the things that other humans were telling me and we talked on my podcast about, like the armor that we wear yeah, to protect ourselves, and like how heavy it is, and like I have carried around this, this, it's all on me. And so, therefore, because it's all on me, making sure that, like the business makes money, that the team is paid, that my students are getting results, that I'm not harming them in coaching them and helping them go through all of this and I realized that the way that I'm thinking about all of those things that are important to me in a way of it's all on me was not helpful. So I had to take off the it's all on me and really be like there are so many people out there that want to help me if I would just let them. And we have a mutual friend, alicia Saint-Germain, who you know I had a security incident happen and one of the things that she suggested to me when I told her, because she always said, like, if you're ever going, I never reach out for help Ever, never the first one to reach out, but if someone checks on me, I'll tell them what's going on. Yeah, and I just thought Alicia has always said to me If you ever need anything, I am here.
Speaker 1:And I was like I felt compelled in the moment, in the day that all of this was happening. I just felt like this is not something I can navigate on my own and I do need help. Like I need help, I need some guidance. I reached out to her, so, like the armor started to crack. I reached out to her and she goes I think you should disconnect your bank account from this system right away and immediately.
Speaker 1:I felt the resistance. I was like, oh no, if I do that, then they'll be extra mad at me. And like, so I reached out for help, but I was not receptive to the advice yet because I was still in this self-protection, it's all on me mode. And then, two days later, of course, what do I end up? Needing to do? Exactly what she suggested that I do disconnect my bank account, file a police report, blah, blah, blah, blah. And in those moments like that was another one of those moments where I'm like okay, I'm starting to notice all of the places where people are making suggestions to me that I'm not taking in the moment and I can have compassion for myself as to why, because I felt really scared and I did the thing that felt the safest, which was to comply and be nice. However, I could also let other people protect me that wanna protect me.
Speaker 2:I feel there's so much resonance right now. I'm over here just like thinking about my own scenario this morning and just like I am hearing a lot of women business owners go through this right now of I have muscled through. I have muscled through and I have all of these people around me who do really wanna help and really wanna provide and protect and support and I'm gonna go there. I wasn't planning on going there, but I'm gonna do it. For a lot of us, it's for those of us in heteronormative relationships, it's our men or it's our support team that is literally hired into that provisional protective role of like I'm looking out for you, it is my job to help make sure that you, as the visionary and as the CEO, are fully supported. And we're like no, you can't help us right and we don't listen. And this happened with me and team team came to me the other day and they were like we keep doing like very low ticket things and like low balling pricing and we know you wanna be so accessible and you wanna make sure people have things and they're like but that's why we've done what we've done with the podcast and with our $19 adapt course and with our $29 workshops, like we have these lower ticket things. Lee, if you're going to do something, it needs to be a higher cost. And I'm listening to them and hearing them and going yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then today I was like, hey, I wanna change this thing from like a two hour thing to a 10 day thing and let's charge a dollar. And Sarah, god lover, was like no, in the nicest of ways. And I was like, oh, I just did it again, but it comes from that. Can I receive more money? Can I receive what I really need in order to be nourished and provided for and not assume that people aren't gonna pay, or assume that people don't have the means and that I'm not being a good girl or I'm being like a big bad business owner by charging more? And this is something that I didn't even realize was a pattern for myself, but I did.
Speaker 2:It's something that I've been working through over the last several months because at the beginning of the coaching, at my coaching journey I don't know about you, but like it was the it's still the Wild Wild West, but it was the Wild Wild West Like you could charge whatever you wanted and people would pay it a lot of times, and I kept being told up your rates, up your rates, up your rates. And then I got to a point where I was like this doesn't feel good, this feels extractive, this feels consumptive, and so I'm like lower them. And I went, I like swung in the other direction and so now, like finding that that I called it, this is gonna be our Goldilocks era, like it being just right, you know. But like to tie that back to what you were saying, we had to look at the data and I'm like, look, the last three months we haven't been profitable enough because we're not selling things, not because we don't have a massive influx of people who are coming in. It's because what we are selling and the way we are selling it, we are trying to be accessible to everyone. And we can be accessible to everyone and ensure that myself and team, all of us feel supported from a financial and like a security and a safety perspective.
Speaker 2:And so I just wanna share that, because I think that a lot of times people think, oh, once your business gets to a certain size, like that's no longer an issue, pricing is no longer an issue, like money, stuff's no longer an issue. Y'all, you do not outgrow issues. They just show up. I think people think that it will stop feeling like whack-a-mole when they get to a certain point. It's not gonna stop feeling like whack-a-mole. However, you're going to be able to catch them quicker, you're going to have better tools to handle them when they pop up and you're gonna have more people. If you let them be there, you're gonna have more people who are like gonna be able to scan for when they pop up and also who can handle it without you even needing to step in. So it's like the goal isn't to stop playing whack-a-mole, it's like to get way better at it. That was kind of a tangent and I hope people enjoyed that little analogy.
Speaker 1:I mean, when you talk about, like, how you felt about pricing, I feel like one of the biggest challenges I help our students overcome is feeling like they're harming people with their pricing, like whatever their pricing is, that they're like taking from them and not giving them anything in return, or that it's not a choice of the person who is entering in the transaction, that somehow they have no choice to enter it. And so it's like there's a difference between just like accessibility and like I feel like picking a number that is like, oh, I feel, from my perspective of where I sit, that this number is accessible or whatever that means. It's like pricing is so personal on both sides and we have to try a lot of different things. But like I think that the core place to try a lot of different things from pricing and it's a constant realization and then drifting away from the realization and the means, snapped back to the realization is that we get to be in a position, that we get to be in alignment with that. But we also get to know that, like whatever we choose, nine times out of 10, we're doing an integrity with everything. We're doing it because when I raised my price to 10,000, it wasn't because I'm like, oh, we're so ultra premium and blah, blah, blah, whatever I was like this is a sustainable price for us to operate our business with the level of service and support that we give people.
Speaker 1:Like I feel like at this price I'd need to enroll this many students and we could give them this level of support.
Speaker 1:And it all felt like and I knew they would make that back and then some. So it was like to further the mission, but like I could have thought that $10,000 was a price that was harmful. I have felt in my journey that $27 was a price that was harmful to my clients. Does that make sense? Like so it's all about how we think about that number. Like, if I feel like I'm taking $27 for me every single month for my membership which I had I don't have one anymore yeah, like it's going to feel horrible for me to sell that. So like I have to get to the core as to why I think that that is taking something from you and not giving you so much more than that in return, because I think that is a piece for me that I had to really get through in order to be able to like receive the money, to know that I'm not taking it from someone, I'm not harming them with it by having it yeah.
Speaker 2:You know it's. It's so fascinating because I'm I'm listening to you and you know the that I'm harming somebody, like that part was never it Right. It was the. How do I say this?
Speaker 2:The work that I do, that we do at the Institute, a lot of times the individual work that is occurring is because the systems and the organizations that we are a part of and involved in have caused the issues, and so for me, it's like I really would like to charge a lot of money to the systems and the organizations and not charge the money of the individuals. And I have so many individuals in my space that are like I love paying you every month, because I have so many people that are like I love paying you every month because what you have done or what I am able to do in your spaces helps me change systems, helps me change organizations, and so that's the piece that I've kind of had to start wrapping my brain around is when I have I've noticed this when I am paying for something that feels like really supportive for me, I'm like I'm going to have to wait to make that payment. Yeah, and I get excited whenever that comes out of my bank account, cause I know what that's doing. And so, from a leadership perspective, you know, making those decisions of like, how much are things going to cost and how much input does team have into these things? And and this is something that I feel really passionate about, because Our team I think that's really the good thing about this job we actually asked this question If nothing changed in a year, would you still want to work here, and why?
Speaker 2:Or why not? Like, would you stay? And the answers to that always I like they feel so good to hear, because some people are like absolutely Like I love it, I'm staying. Like if if we just kept doing what we were doing, cool. Some people have said like no, because that means we've stopped being the organization that we are, because we've stopped changing that. They're like we are an organization that is big on change, based on when it needs to happen. So if that stopped, no, I wouldn't want to be a part of it. And I was like, well, okay, that's actually a yes.
Speaker 2:So but, like, when you look at those answers, part of this is because team is able to come to me as the leader and go like, hey, you're charging too little. Hey, you're working too much. I just had somebody tell me they were. They were like Lee, I have been with you for a very long time, you need a break. You need a break and I swear, if I see you on Slack like I'm gonna, you know, come to you and like make you take a break, those types of things.
Speaker 2:And you know we were talking about psychological safety on your podcast. What that tells me is that our team and our clients and the people who are involved with our organization have psychological safety because they are able to say things to us that other places they wouldn't say. And so when people are like I think you should I've had, we've had you should be charging more for this right or team. You know, I think that this is my input. That has been a measurement you know, talking about if things are working or not working, whatever the outcomes are. That's actually one of the measurements I look at is am I getting feedback that doesn't always feel good from, or that feels really great from places, and are people giving that without us even asking? Because what that tells me is is people feel safe enough to share with us what they are thinking, and that means that we've set up a safe space.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree with you more on that. And what? 18 months ago, I hired my first actual W2 employees. Before that I had had contractors and I really felt like, okay, in order to have the capacity that I wanna have to like get this business where I want. I really want people who this is it like that they're working, we're all working together on the same team and I can follow the law.
Speaker 1:I felt that that was like really important in terms of making sure that the contractor-cliant relationship wasn't getting muddied with certain things, and so I put a lot of intention into what I wanted my company culture to look like and hiring and onboarding, and about 90 days into my team member Allie's employment with me, she was like, hey, can I set up a time to talk to you? And I know she would not mind me sharing the story. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. And so we talk and she goes is there something different that you would like me to be doing? She said because I noticed that you will delegate stuff to me and then you'll complete it before I have a chance to. And I was like I'm so glad that you brought this up to me, because I have been feeling like I needed to talk to you about my tendency to do this because I don't want you to think that you're not doing a good job or that you're not valued or whatever. Like we talked about earlier in this episode, when I feel anxious, I feel like the best way to fix that is to check a bunch of stuff off of my to-do list, your to-do list, close all the open loops, whatever.
Speaker 1:And it has been a continual struggle for me. It's kind of like that other whack-a-mole right. It is like I will get to a place where I'm like okay, I'm good, we're not changing things, we're consistent, I'm not flying by the seat of my pants. Here you go. Versus okay, everything fall apart in the spring.
Speaker 1:Now I have to like do all the things again and it's this constant push and pull where I feel like I'm so grateful she can come and tell me that and at the same time, it is still, to this day, a struggle for me to fully just let someone support me, because I feel like I'm still working on that's my big leadership area of growth. Right Is to truly just let someone support me fully. Communicate my expectations. Have tough conversations if my expectations aren't met. Look at, did I clearly communicate my expectations if they weren't met and just stay out of people's freaking way and let them do their job, because if that had happened to me in corporate what I do to her from time to time I would not be working there. Like there is no way that I would tolerate like my boss assigning me work and then doing it before I had a chance to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, what's so fascinating is is like I hear like you even use the word anxious like that's the anxious attachment of like to the work. You're anxiously attached to the work, and so it's like I need to keep checking and making sure it's good, it's good, it's good, we're good, everything's good. And then the people around you can be like whoa, you know, like I was gonna take care of that, I was gonna. You know, you're right, it can make the people around you feel kind of psychologically unsafe because they're like oh, am I not doing a good job? Does she not trust me, you know? And then again most people will make things about them. Some people will make it about you, but most people will make it about them. And the reason I'm just kind of chuckling is I'm almost the opposite, so I'm very avoidant. So sometimes I'll be like, hey, can you do this thing? And then, like I won't check on it, people will tell me it's done. I'm like, okay, great, right, and I won't look. And I've gotten this feedback of like it makes it feel like the work that I'm doing isn't important, because it doesn't really seem like you care. It seems like you just kind of gave me busy work, and so that's something I've had to look at is making sure that recognition and appreciation is there too, and I realized for myself.
Speaker 2:You know, recognition and appreciation has always been a hard thing to give, because I didn't. You know that wasn't something I got used to getting. I was like you just do your the type, you're gonna get feedback when you do stuff wrong. You're not gonna get feedback when you do stuff right. That's just what you're quote unquote supposed to do. So that's something that I've really been learning and being intentional about with in this role.
Speaker 2:You know there's 10 of us now at this point being like you know, I really appreciate you all, and let me show you that in a multitude of ways. Whether it's sharing about the work you do on Facebook, or it's giving you a Starbucks gift card, or it's just saying thank you, that's been something that I've been really trying to do. And the other places is actually not being a robot which is hilarious running a trauma institute. Like you think I would show people my feelings more, but there have been times where I wasn't letting people see what was really going on with me, because I was like I don't wanna burden them or bother them and I'm like these are your inner circle, like this is your wise counsel. You're not trying, you're not going to them for therapy, you're not going to them and like dumping all your problems on them and they can feel when you're off. So like what if you're just honest with them? What could that look like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that for me, I mean, I think, is still a challenge because in all of the preparation I put into hiring and company culture, I did not ever prepare for what happens when you have two consecutive quarters of not meeting your financial targets and your businesses financial health is in jeopardy and you have employees and how do you navigate those conversations of the company is not doing well, with not wanting them to be scared and not wanting them to feel worried, but also when the reality is very possible that we might not get through this in the amount of time that we need to get through this for this to all work out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that right there of like again, it's that responsibility piece of, and this is why it's another one of the reasons people are afraid to be vulnerable is I'm trying to control your feelings. I don't want you to feel worried. I want to hold the brunt of all of that. And, like this is something I've actually learned as a parent of kids who are very in tuned, attuned. I can't hide my feelings from them. They know when something's up, they know what's going on and instead of and I don't want to model that, yeah, I don't want to model that and so what I've started saying is you know, this is scary. And do I feel scared at times? Yes, am I scared as a human? No, do I trust that whatever is supposed to happen will happen here? Yes, do I trust it's all working? Whether it's this things, it can all be working and this thing not work.
Speaker 2:Kind of back to what you were saying before. Sometimes I heard this the other day Sometimes the thing that you want has to fall apart for the thing that you're supposed to get to come through, and I am. You know the amount of times that that's been true in my life. You think I would remember that at this point, I still forget it. So if you forget it, like anyone who's listening, cool, I do too.
Speaker 2:But like that's something I've learned is if I am trying to control everything outside of me, that's my worst choice of action. The worst choice of action is trying to control the emotions and the things outside of me instead of going. What am I feeling, what do I need, how do I wanna move through this? And that from a leadership perspective. You know that's something we're gonna talk about at our conference and something that you know is just laced into or laced through everything that we do at the Institute is like coming back to that self leadership of how do I want to do this, like how can I be in command?
Speaker 2:And I just really appreciate you being willing to share like these two big things, like both the security incident which, like I love how gracefully you talked about this and I know that we get to be careful about how we're talking about it and also y'all, like knowing the details. It was a doozy. It was a doozy. And most people who just went through what you went through and been like all right, I'm done, I'm closing up shop, I'll see you later, I'm going to go do something else and especially with the two launches, like most people would have been like okay, one thing, two things, three, I'm out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But you stayed and you're still in it and you're working through it and like that, that is, like your phenomenal leader.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you and and I will try to receive that Thank you. I received that. I like it, I'll receive that and I truly felt like I'm like OK, part of what I'm here, why this is happening, is that I need to just what you said. Some things been trying to get my attention.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And I have not been paying attention. Yeah, and so I'm not saying that like any of this should have happened or whatever, but it finally got my attention. And then I was able to say, oh OK, all of these other people who have been seeing this trajectory and have been gently suggesting things to me that I have been like, nope, I got this. You're like, hey, you might want to like pull up on that, you know airplane thing, maybe if you just pulled a little and I'm like I got it, it's good to be able to accept support. And now I'm just like, oh yeah, I'll try anything Anybody like not, I'm not like bypassing my own intuition, but I'm also just like, what's the harm in just trying a bunch of different things?
Speaker 1:That other people are sick to care me about me and know about my business, and you know what's the harm in trying those things? But the other piece of it is that, like if I can go through this really really challenging time and come out on the other side and things are starting to slowly recover and I can tell that story to the people that need to hear that, like, oh hey, there are times when it goes really, really great and there are times that it all falls apart and you can recover like I'm here for all of that, and then I think that the piece that is my next, next hill to climb, so to speak, is Feeling like I'm so benevolently protecting my team, when really I'm just trying to control things, yeah, and like breaking out of being the good girl, the good leader, the good whatever to be like. Ok, but where is this coming from? And is this even the best not best, but the most authentic, aligned way to handle this situation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm grateful for your speaking on people pleasing and, like I think, one of the hardest things for me ever to hear along this trauma journey or to learn was that people pleasing Is manipulative.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's controlling and it's it's self protective.
Speaker 2:Right, it is, and people have a very strong reaction to that word and I get it. But like you, are trying to lead somebody to not feel, their feelings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in an attempt for you to not feel uncomfortable feeling so you're manipulating other people and you're manipulating yourself, and you know, I know somebody just probably threw up their middle finger at me as I said that and they're listening to this.
Speaker 2:But, like, and I feel you and that has been my lesson is, how do I stop manipulating things and just start being open and honest and vulnerable with what I want and how things are going and who I am?
Speaker 2:And I will say, tilsie and I, whenever we go through something really hard like this, I'll look over at him like for laying there talking and I'm like, oh, this is going to be such a good story to tell from stage in like three to five years, like three years from now, five years from now, we're going to be standing on that stage talking about how hard this was and I'm so excited for that moment.
Speaker 2:That has been something that's always gotten me through it, because I think that's what really good leaders do is when they, when they go through these hard things, they don't just learn the lessons from them, they impart them to other people, which is exactly what you're doing and we're doing, and it's powerful and I hope anyone listening to this who's also going through a rough time, like, hi, join the Shannon and Lee club, we've got you, we get it. And it's hard and it gets to feel, it can feel easier and part of that is going to be just like the self-reflection piece, without the internal violence. Yeah, be kind to yourself while you look at your shit and look at that data and go, okay, what next?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would say like, also like, give yourself a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of, a little bit of, a little bit of, a little bit of, a little bit of, a little bit of, a little bit of actually I would say that's the å then givingisha just to healed the organic burned down and they're Destin-amed from being like sort of like giving yourself some time to let the dust settle, to be able to see what the lessons are, because I'm sure that there are more lessons to come that I haven't, and that's why this had to happen.
Speaker 1:And I don't know if this is a thing, but I feel like I learn very much by experiencing the visceral. Sometimes I learn because someone says something in it and there's that click, and I have made shifts in talking to you and other people because something you said just like clicked and then I don't need to touch the stove, right. But if I haven't experienced the click, then I, then I need to experience the discomfort, but not just, I need to experience it. That's not that I'm not trying to say that like oh, it should happen, or like anything like that I get what you're saying. That will get my attention, yes, and if I am, if I'm not self-flagellating and deprecating in the process, then I can like let the dust settle and reflect and be like what did I need to learn from this to be able to move forward? And not necessarily not have it happen again, because I keep, I do, continually learn the same lessons, but just to be like, oh OK, now I can get aligned or now I can do this different, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's why I always say three to five years, because I feel like that's when you can Really. You've got enough perspective, yeah.
Speaker 1:There's some wisdom behind it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So today is actually the day we're recording is actually the three year anniversary of me leaving teaching at the university and I was reflecting a little bit and I was like, would I go back and do that?
Speaker 2:I was like no, you know, even in all of the hardness of running my own business, like no, I don't want to go back and do that, because there's so many pieces and parts to what I'm doing now that would be missing. And I'm like, so grateful to that version of myself who did the absolutely terrifying thing and was like, hey, let's get rid of all of our guaranteed income. And like, let's take this chance. And like, let's, let's put ourselves in a position where things can feel this awful, because also, there's been so much joy and so much excitement and so much like healing and growth and meaning in the last three years. If somebody came to me right now and was like, hey, I can, I can wave that magic wand and put you right back in that teaching position and that guaranteed salary and healthcare, and like you never know, no, I'm good.
Speaker 1:My sister actually waved like, offered me the magic wand.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:And she was going through all of the challenges and she's like I can I have a position for you right now? And I'm like tell me more about what I'd be doing. And I'm like maybe it is time, maybe, maybe this is the help that I need to accept. And so she shared more with me about the role and I was like, no, not a million years, because what I would lose is my autonomy, my agency, my ability to develop my own thought leadership and impact the people that I really want to impact, and that's, to me, is not worth the steady paycheck and the insurance and the. You know. It's a different kind of discomfort when your true calling is just not, is not able to be expressed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh it's. I would rather be broke and like have all the uncertainty in the world than do that again. And that's something that I think a lot of people in my life don't understand. But I've created so much psychological safety for myself in the role that I'm in now and in my life, with the people who are close to me and with my clients and with my team and like with myself. You know that.
Speaker 2:You know, I looked at nursing jobs a little bit ago. I was looking at all of them and I'm going number one this is this does not pay enough money, right? And number two who am I going to have to be again? Who am I going to have to pretend to be again in order to do that? And I'll end with this because I was talking about it with my husband and my youngest, who's always they're so perceptive, you know. She said, mommy, I don't want you to go back to being a nurse again. And I said why I was? Because it wasn't. It didn't like make you happy. And she said, plus, I get to see you all the time now and we spend so much time together and when you were a nurse, I never got to see you. And so like, can you please not do that If there are three humans on the planet that I would move hell and earth for, to not go back, because it is better for them?
Speaker 2:It's my kids, and so I'm going to model for them that you don't do things that crush your soul, yeah, for stability. You don't do things that crush your soul for stability. We don't trade that in this, in, in this family or in life, because it's never worth it. It's never worth it. I say all that to say the messiness and the, the heart and the lessons and all of the things.
Speaker 2:Like, if you feel like you were put on this earth to do what you're doing and it feels really hard right now, like invitation to just kind of think about that of what heart are you choosing? Because I would rather choose the heart that is in, in, still involves me getting to choose what I know is the thing that I'm here to do versus. Oh, yeah, I have to drive myself to a soul sucking job every day, but like I have healthcare, I have insurance, you know, yeah, shannon, we are going to link your podcast in the show notes. We do have a significant amount of entrepreneurs that listen to this that I think may be in your wheelhouse from a coaching perspective. So if people wanted to work with you, how could they find you best?
Speaker 1:Yeah, all of our resources are at webdesigneracademycom. Our profitable web designer podcast is linked up there. So, even though we're the web designer academy, everything I talk about on that podcast applies to any service-based entrepreneur. We talk a lot about pricing, marketing, boundaries, all of those things and a lot of the thoughts we have around those and all of the good girl stuff that we think that we're supposed to do in regards to clients and all of those things. So if that's what you do and it's anything related to what you do, or you know any freelance web designers who you're like oh, they need this. Definitely send them over to webdesigneracademycom and you can check out the podcast there also.
Speaker 2:Awesome, and Shannon doesn't know what to say this, but it is like my personal mission to get this woman on social media in some sort of way so that more people can start hearing about her genius, because she is. She's so freaking smart and has so much, so at some point we might come back and add her social media handles, if I am successful.
Speaker 1:Yes, we are at profitable web designer at Shannon Elmattern. Okay, and if you want to talk to me though I'm straight up old school just send me an email, shannon at webdesigneracademycom, I will see it. My team will make sure I see it. I'm all about like connection there. We were talking on my podcast or I don't know if it's earlier. I don't know, it's been a blur.
Speaker 2:This episode that episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel so constrained by social media. I'm a. I need long form, the long form communication. But I'm open. I'm going to take the advice of anybody that is telling, giving people that know and care about me, that have advice for me. So I'm open. Yeah, I'm open to that suggestion.
Speaker 2:Lee, oh yeah, no, I cooked up a whole offer for you in my brain and I'm just waiting for team to let me share it. And if anyone else is listening, going like, I don't typically get on social media and you've watched us on social media and you're like, ooh, that would be really cool to have viral videos and things and also that sounds terrifying. Make sure that you're joining us for our safe to be seen workshop masterclass event on the week of August 21st. We're going to be hosting that, depending on when you're listening to this, but it's going to be me walking you through the top 10 ways that we have a hard time letting ourselves be seen, which is just. It's so connected to what we've been talking about here.
Speaker 2:So, all right, I love you all. Thank you for listening. Go check out Shannon's podcast and our companion episode and I'll see you next week. Bye, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Invitation to head to their show notes to check out the offers and connections we mentioned, or you can just head straight over to Institute for Traumacom and hop in our email list so that you never miss any of the cool things that we're doing over at the Institute. It's been a pleasure listening, to Be Well and to take care of yourself this week, and we'll see you next time.