{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.151,"endTime":1.332,"body":"Hi, Sarah."},{"startTime":2.814,"endTime":3.825,"body":"Yeah, good, good."},{"startTime":3.825,"endTime":11.948,"body":"OK, so this is the this is the first episode then of our new podcast series, Trauma Talks"},{"startTime":3.825,"endTime":11.948,"body":"from the Centre of Excellence in Child Trauma."},{"startTime":11.948,"endTime":18.006,"body":"So, I just do a quick intro to sort of make sure everyone knows who you are and what"},{"startTime":11.948,"endTime":18.006,"body":"you're you're up to."},{"startTime":18.006,"endTime":18.737,"body":"Sure, yeah."},{"startTime":18.737,"endTime":20.548,"body":"So my name's Sarah Naish."},{"startTime":20.548,"endTime":27.496,"body":"I'm a therapeutic parent, a doctor and former foster parent, and I'm the CEO of the Centre"},{"startTime":20.548,"endTime":27.496,"body":"for Excellence in Child Trauma."},{"startTime":27.496,"endTime":38.266,"body":"We do a lot of work in there to make sure that people are aware, are trauma aware and"},{"startTime":27.496,"endTime":38.266,"body":"practising, and I'm a bestselling author of therapeutic parenting books."},{"startTime":38.266,"endTime":43.378,"body":"Amazing, think I've got them, I'm blurred out, but they're all stacked behind me there."},{"startTime":44.338,"endTime":52.871,"body":"Yeah, and so I'm Gareth, I fostered three children about eight years ago, and that kind of"},{"startTime":44.338,"endTime":52.871,"body":"got me on the journey to therapeutic parenting."},{"startTime":52.871,"endTime":57.324,"body":"I realized I needed to figure something out, because what I was doing at the time wasn't"},{"startTime":52.871,"endTime":57.324,"body":"working."},{"startTime":57.324,"endTime":61.746,"body":"And yeah, that's kind of led me to here where I work with Center of Excellence."},{"startTime":61.746,"endTime":65.981,"body":"We do lots of training and working with professionals and parents."},{"startTime":65.981,"endTime":66.763,"body":"all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":66.763,"endTime":73.319,"body":"So yeah, I think the format we're gonna follow for these episodes is we're gonna kind of"},{"startTime":66.763,"endTime":73.319,"body":"do a little bit of a take on a hot topic."},{"startTime":73.319,"endTime":76.572,"body":"So there's always stuff floating about in the news and on social media."},{"startTime":76.572,"endTime":84.098,"body":"Then we're gonna do a bit of a deep dive and talk about kind of stuff that comes up and"},{"startTime":76.572,"endTime":84.098,"body":"take a closer look at things."},{"startTime":84.098,"endTime":92.276,"body":"And then I'm gonna try and end each episode with a question, things that are being raised"},{"startTime":84.098,"endTime":92.276,"body":"either on our Facebook group or things that people have messaged through to us."},{"startTime":92.276,"endTime":95.068,"body":"and we'll kind of give our take on that."},{"startTime":95.068,"endTime":103.514,"body":"So the one I wanted to start with today was actually shared to me by one of our foster"},{"startTime":95.068,"endTime":103.514,"body":"parents and it's a school here in Wales, the story about a school."},{"startTime":103.514,"endTime":112.009,"body":"So the title of the article is, after more than 250 punishments from teachers, his parents"},{"startTime":103.514,"endTime":112.009,"body":"took on the school and they found out the truth."},{"startTime":112.009,"endTime":115.62,"body":"So typical sort of catchy headline."},{"startTime":115.621,"endTime":118.514,"body":"But I'll just give like an overview of what the article is."},{"startTime":118.514,"endTime":125.225,"body":"So it's got a photo here of Keon Mills 15 with his parents, Julie and Alden at his home in"},{"startTime":118.514,"endTime":125.225,"body":"Port Talbot."},{"startTime":125.225,"endTime":130.456,"body":"Keon's home educated after his parents took him out of the school in June, 2024."},{"startTime":130.456,"endTime":139.427,"body":"So the overview here at the start of the article, I'll just read it to bring people up to"},{"startTime":130.456,"endTime":139.427,"body":"speed is, a school has been ordered to apologize to a pupil and his parents and update its"},{"startTime":139.427,"endTime":143.798,"body":"behavior policy after a tribunal found it had discriminated against him."},{"startTime":143.798,"endTime":145.309,"body":"An educational tribunal"},{"startTime":145.309,"endTime":155.547,"body":"Wales hearing concluded that the school in Port Talbot failed to reasonably support Keir"},{"startTime":145.309,"endTime":155.547,"body":"Mills and discriminated against him in the way it applied its behavior policy."},{"startTime":155.547,"endTime":165.375,"body":"And so it goes on to kind of say about how they home educate him now that his ADHD and"},{"startTime":155.547,"endTime":165.375,"body":"dyslexia weren't taken into consideration rather than being helped at school."},{"startTime":165.375,"endTime":173.092,"body":"He was basically given a string of detentions, exclusions and isolations for, as they put"},{"startTime":165.375,"endTime":173.092,"body":"it, tiny things that they were worried for his wellbeing."},{"startTime":173.092,"endTime":175.764,"body":"So I mean, what's your thoughts on that?"},{"startTime":175.764,"endTime":178.936,"body":"Well, I mean, sadly, it's a very familiar story, isn't it, to us?"},{"startTime":178.936,"endTime":182.108,"body":"We hear this all the time whenever I do training."},{"startTime":182.108,"endTime":186.301,"body":"If I even mention school, the whole presentation can get hijacked."},{"startTime":186.301,"endTime":190.443,"body":"So that's why we've got separate presentations and workshops for schools."},{"startTime":190.443,"endTime":201.018,"body":"It's the old adage of, you know, trying to fit the square pegs into the round holes and"},{"startTime":190.443,"endTime":201.018,"body":"they just keep bashing the kids harder and harder to try and make them fit into the..."},{"startTime":201.018,"endTime":208.577,"body":"round hole when of course what they need to do is change the shape of the holes in the"},{"startTime":201.018,"endTime":208.577,"body":"board in the first place so that all children can fit in it."},{"startTime":209.126,"endTime":209.877,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":209.877,"endTime":215.068,"body":"And it feels like, I mean, to me, it just feels that there's more square pegs now than"},{"startTime":209.877,"endTime":215.068,"body":"ever before."},{"startTime":215.068,"endTime":217.348,"body":"It feels like more kids just don't fit into the system."},{"startTime":217.348,"endTime":225.579,"body":"It's not like, you know, it's not these sort of small groups that I'm chatting to where"},{"startTime":217.348,"endTime":225.579,"body":"they're kind of saying, yeah, kids are on the fringe, on the edge and they don't really"},{"startTime":225.579,"endTime":225.759,"body":"fit."},{"startTime":225.759,"endTime":231.01,"body":"That's what it was, I felt like when I was in school, the majority fitted, but some"},{"startTime":225.759,"endTime":231.01,"body":"didn't."},{"startTime":231.01,"endTime":233.621,"body":"Whereas now it feels like it's gone over 50%."},{"startTime":233.621,"endTime":243.432,"body":"I definitely think it's been over 50 % for quite a while and I see that when I do my"},{"startTime":233.621,"endTime":243.432,"body":"training with schools, if you've got like head teachers in there, they quite often come"},{"startTime":243.432,"endTime":249.643,"body":"with the training feeling like you can see in their faces, you know, oh, another training"},{"startTime":243.432,"endTime":249.643,"body":"boring sort of thing I've got to do."},{"startTime":249.643,"endTime":258.134,"body":"But actually when I start talking to them and explain, we're not just talking about"},{"startTime":249.643,"endTime":258.134,"body":"children that are fostered or children that are adopted, any child that suffered trauma."},{"startTime":258.134,"endTime":262.145,"body":"I mean, any child that suffered trauma and still with a birth family is going to have"},{"startTime":258.134,"endTime":262.145,"body":"these issues."},{"startTime":262.145,"endTime":268.43,"body":"And as we know, ADHD is very commonly misdiagnosed and really it's response to trauma."},{"startTime":268.43,"endTime":274.807,"body":"But then you've got all the other issues with children where perhaps something has"},{"startTime":268.43,"endTime":274.807,"body":"happened early on in their life."},{"startTime":274.807,"endTime":277.82,"body":"Maybe there's been medical issues or something like that."},{"startTime":277.82,"endTime":282.134,"body":"And as a result, we're seeing these come out in school."},{"startTime":282.134,"endTime":287.699,"body":"when we add it all up, I asked the head teachers, how many children are fostered,"},{"startTime":282.134,"endTime":287.699,"body":"percentage rise?"},{"startTime":287.699,"endTime":289.441,"body":"How many adopted, percentage rise?"},{"startTime":289.441,"endTime":291.423,"body":"how many do you think are on the edge of care?"},{"startTime":291.423,"endTime":293.613,"body":"And we are always over 60%."},{"startTime":293.613,"endTime":295.667,"body":"So we're not talking about the minority."},{"startTime":295.667,"endTime":299.822,"body":"And interestingly, you know, we're just coming into the dreaded like exam time."},{"startTime":299.822,"endTime":307.901,"body":"And I was speaking to a guy recently who invigilates and is in charge of, you know,"},{"startTime":299.822,"endTime":307.901,"body":"sorting out all the exams in a secondary school."},{"startTime":307.901,"endTime":314.089,"body":"And he said to me, you know, at the moment we've got so many kids that have got anxiety."},{"startTime":314.089,"endTime":316.669,"body":"and we're supposed to be making special arrangements for them."},{"startTime":316.669,"endTime":319.0,"body":"And he said, I don't understand it."},{"startTime":319.0,"endTime":324.44,"body":"He said, I think they just need to get a grip and get on with it."},{"startTime":324.44,"endTime":326.94,"body":"We didn't have all this when I was a kid."},{"startTime":326.94,"endTime":328.222,"body":"I was like, no."},{"startTime":328.222,"endTime":329.402,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":329.402,"endTime":338.771,"body":"And I think there is that sense, there, that it's almost, know, yeah, I could see that"},{"startTime":329.402,"endTime":338.771,"body":"divide where people really feel that the solution to this is to stop being so soft, is to,"},{"startTime":338.771,"endTime":343.734,"body":"you know, actually go back in the direction that we've come from because everyone was fine"},{"startTime":338.771,"endTime":343.734,"body":"then."},{"startTime":343.734,"endTime":351.59,"body":"And actually, you know, it's just that all of these kids were buried and hidden away and"},{"startTime":343.734,"endTime":351.59,"body":"really, really struggled and possibly then went on into later life and carried those"},{"startTime":351.59,"endTime":352.662,"body":"struggles with them."},{"startTime":352.662,"endTime":360.591,"body":"And actually, a big thing that we advocate for, it works well for across neurodivergence"},{"startTime":352.662,"endTime":360.591,"body":"because it's actually just quite a human response."},{"startTime":360.591,"endTime":364.866,"body":"It's actually just, let's take the time to build relationships and work through that."},{"startTime":364.866,"endTime":372.917,"body":"But then again, I think from the response that I quite often see, it's just dismissed then"},{"startTime":364.866,"endTime":372.917,"body":"as the thing that winds me up all the time is when people say,"},{"startTime":372.917,"endTime":373.828,"body":"yeah, we know what you're saying."},{"startTime":373.828,"endTime":374.959,"body":"Just call them into the room."},{"startTime":374.959,"endTime":376.001,"body":"Don't give them a detention."},{"startTime":376.001,"endTime":383.189,"body":"Just call them in and give them a hot chocolate and then just tell them not to worry about"},{"startTime":376.001,"endTime":383.189,"body":"the fact that they've just hit another kid or whatever."},{"startTime":383.189,"endTime":390.459,"body":"And it's just such a frustrating minimization and dismissal of everything that therapeutic"},{"startTime":383.189,"endTime":390.459,"body":"approaches stand for."},{"startTime":390.459,"endTime":392.02,"body":"Just infuriates me."},{"startTime":392.312,"endTime":404.978,"body":"It's interesting because I think change is difficult for people and I was speaking to the"},{"startTime":392.312,"endTime":404.978,"body":"guy who runs the neuroplasticity network and we were talking about this resistance that"},{"startTime":404.978,"endTime":414.326,"body":"there is out there where people hang on to outdated models and he was saying that if you"},{"startTime":404.978,"endTime":414.326,"body":"have a model that you've been taught"},{"startTime":414.326,"endTime":423.28,"body":"and you stick to, like with teaching, for example, what happens is you go in and you talk"},{"startTime":414.326,"endTime":423.28,"body":"about that and you defend your model and you keep defending it."},{"startTime":423.28,"endTime":431.643,"body":"But then one day somebody comes along and is basically talking about a different model,"},{"startTime":423.28,"endTime":431.643,"body":"which effectively removes the legs off yours."},{"startTime":431.643,"endTime":432.923,"body":"You got two choices."},{"startTime":432.923,"endTime":438.987,"body":"You either adapt and realise your model is now defunct or you carry on defending your"},{"startTime":432.923,"endTime":438.987,"body":"model to the hip."},{"startTime":438.987,"endTime":441.999,"body":"Well, what we see a lot of in education in particular."},{"startTime":441.999,"endTime":451.189,"body":"is people who are defending to their last breath the outdated models that do not work for"},{"startTime":441.999,"endTime":451.189,"body":"children that are neurodiverse."},{"startTime":451.189,"endTime":452.431,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":452.431,"endTime":459.066,"body":"And I think that's a real frustration because it feels like at the same time, education is"},{"startTime":452.431,"endTime":459.066,"body":"saying, look, this is not manageable anymore."},{"startTime":459.066,"endTime":459.977,"body":"We can't cope with this."},{"startTime":459.977,"endTime":463.239,"body":"And then when people come along and say, okay, well, here's a different way of doing it."},{"startTime":463.239,"endTime":464.98,"body":"They say, well, no, we're not doing it a different way."},{"startTime":464.98,"endTime":466.381,"body":"We're sticking with what we've got."},{"startTime":466.381,"endTime":468.242,"body":"And it's like, well, what is going to change?"},{"startTime":468.242,"endTime":475.618,"body":"And really, I think ultimately what people are quite often saying in a way is, we only"},{"startTime":468.242,"endTime":475.618,"body":"want to teach the kids that come into school ready to learn."},{"startTime":475.618,"endTime":481.665,"body":"We don't wanna teach the kids that have additional needs or have a tough home life or any"},{"startTime":475.618,"endTime":481.665,"body":"of those things."},{"startTime":481.665,"endTime":484.75,"body":"And that's not how state education works."},{"startTime":484.75,"endTime":486.802,"body":"I'm sorry, it just doesn't."},{"startTime":486.802,"endTime":491.066,"body":"Yet we know that some schools are very selective and they're quite open about it"},{"startTime":486.802,"endTime":491.066,"body":"sometimes."},{"startTime":491.066,"endTime":497.153,"body":"And even you speak to communities, they kind of think, well, no, we all know we wouldn't"},{"startTime":491.066,"endTime":497.153,"body":"send our kids to that school because they won't."},{"startTime":497.153,"endTime":498.554,"body":"be supported properly there."},{"startTime":498.554,"endTime":505.659,"body":"Perhaps that brings us on to, because what I wanted to do, I didn't want to go all doom"},{"startTime":498.554,"endTime":505.659,"body":"and gloom on schools and I knew that that article would probably take us there."},{"startTime":505.659,"endTime":511.526,"body":"So I was thinking for today's deep dive of looking at ways of working with schools."},{"startTime":511.526,"endTime":520.468,"body":"And I'm happy to kind of share that from my experience, we had, for my three, we had a"},{"startTime":511.526,"endTime":520.468,"body":"fantastic relationship with two primary schools actually."},{"startTime":520.468,"endTime":523.551,"body":"I just found them to be really welcoming, really nurturing."},{"startTime":523.551,"endTime":527.315,"body":"If there was a problem, you could go in, you could speak to them, lots of face to face."},{"startTime":527.315,"endTime":528.687,"body":"And that worked pretty well."},{"startTime":528.687,"endTime":535.473,"body":"With secondary school, and all of my kids have gone through a very, very big secondary"},{"startTime":528.687,"endTime":535.473,"body":"school, it's been really tough."},{"startTime":535.473,"endTime":544.821,"body":"You know, we're in a much better place now than we were, but actually trying to get a foot"},{"startTime":535.473,"endTime":544.821,"body":"through the door and just trying to have those conversations to say, look, I know this is"},{"startTime":544.821,"endTime":546.193,"body":"your behavior policy."},{"startTime":546.193,"endTime":548.164,"body":"but my kids need a different approach."},{"startTime":548.164,"endTime":549.366,"body":"This isn't gonna work for them."},{"startTime":549.366,"endTime":554.02,"body":"It's only gonna make life for you guys in that school much, much harder."},{"startTime":554.02,"endTime":557.752,"body":"That was really tough and it still can be bit of an ongoing challenge."},{"startTime":557.752,"endTime":562.688,"body":"And I wonder, in terms of working with schools, working collaboratively, how do we do"},{"startTime":557.752,"endTime":562.688,"body":"that?"},{"startTime":562.688,"endTime":564.44,"body":"How do we start to make that happen?"},{"startTime":564.44,"endTime":569.923,"body":"Well, I think the way that you've mentioned it, mean, that's how lot of parents start off,"},{"startTime":564.44,"endTime":569.923,"body":"isn't it?"},{"startTime":569.923,"endTime":575.596,"body":"We start off because we can see that it's not working for our children."},{"startTime":575.596,"endTime":578.997,"body":"You know, we can see that there's a problem with them."},{"startTime":578.997,"endTime":585.52,"body":"So I think we start off by letting the school know, like you did, that this doesn't work"},{"startTime":578.997,"endTime":585.52,"body":"for my child."},{"startTime":585.52,"endTime":588.102,"body":"And not only does it not work for them, it never will."},{"startTime":588.102,"endTime":592.415,"body":"And when I did that with my children, I also said, and it's also not working for"},{"startTime":592.415,"endTime":594.496,"body":"the other children you've got there that are neurodiverse."},{"startTime":594.496,"endTime":600.231,"body":"So they did accept some training, you know, they did accept that, which was great."},{"startTime":600.231,"endTime":604.505,"body":"And once I got in there and did some training, happy days, it improved a bit."},{"startTime":604.505,"endTime":610.138,"body":"But most parents aren't in the position to go in and provide free training for the school."},{"startTime":610.138,"endTime":614.56,"body":"So I think that's why, you know, we've written some of the books and we do our training"},{"startTime":610.138,"endTime":614.56,"body":"ourselves."},{"startTime":614.56,"endTime":617.543,"body":"But that's also why a lot of parents end up"},{"startTime":617.543,"endTime":619.745,"body":"changing schools, they move, don't they?"},{"startTime":619.745,"endTime":628.123,"body":"We moved 125 miles for my children to go into a school that I felt was able to meet their"},{"startTime":619.745,"endTime":628.123,"body":"needs for at least the next few years."},{"startTime":628.123,"endTime":630.715,"body":"So we do a lot of that kind of thing as well."},{"startTime":630.715,"endTime":641.185,"body":"But now, because of the centre exits in Child Trauma and also Beacon House and other"},{"startTime":630.715,"endTime":641.185,"body":"places, there are a lot of resources out there that are really useful, which parents can"},{"startTime":641.185,"endTime":644.689,"body":"download and can give to the school because I think that"},{"startTime":644.689,"endTime":649.111,"body":"It doesn't matter how highly educated you are, it doesn't matter what you do for a living."},{"startTime":649.111,"endTime":656.551,"body":"As far as the school are concerned, you are so-and-so's mum or so-and-so's dad, and it's"},{"startTime":649.111,"endTime":656.551,"body":"much easier to dismiss you like that."},{"startTime":656.551,"endTime":667.155,"body":"But when you are giving a resource from us, signed by experts in the field, saying, well,"},{"startTime":656.551,"endTime":667.155,"body":"know, any queries, please come back to us at Centre for Excellence in Child Trauma, that's"},{"startTime":667.155,"endTime":670.726,"body":"much more difficult to argue with, I think."},{"startTime":670.726,"endTime":671.756,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":671.756,"endTime":677.323,"body":"I mean, I think one of the things I've found and it goes back to the point you were making"},{"startTime":671.756,"endTime":677.323,"body":"earlier of the model that you work from."},{"startTime":677.323,"endTime":688.032,"body":"So quite often I find schools are so entrenched in the way that they handle difficulty in"},{"startTime":677.323,"endTime":688.032,"body":"terms of behavioral policies and stuff like that, that actually if you as a parent go in"},{"startTime":688.032,"endTime":692.315,"body":"and say, well, no, actually look, my kid is not staying behind for after school detention."},{"startTime":692.315,"endTime":694.357,"body":"That's not something that I support."},{"startTime":694.357,"endTime":697.98,"body":"what they're gonna do is they're gonna come home and I'm gonna stick to their routine."},{"startTime":697.98,"endTime":699.782,"body":"and that's what's gonna work for them."},{"startTime":699.782,"endTime":704.906,"body":"You kind of get labeled as defiant and all the other labels that they get given to"},{"startTime":699.782,"endTime":704.906,"body":"children."},{"startTime":704.906,"endTime":705.896,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":705.896,"endTime":707.438,"body":"And it's like, well, hold on a minute."},{"startTime":707.438,"endTime":708.999,"body":"No, don't put me in that box."},{"startTime":708.999,"endTime":711.49,"body":"I'm here like trying to work with you."},{"startTime":711.49,"endTime":713.943,"body":"I'm not fighting against you."},{"startTime":713.943,"endTime":716.406,"body":"So yeah, I think that's a real struggle."},{"startTime":716.406,"endTime":723.683,"body":"And as I said, I would say as well, I have seen an improvement in schools and I don't know"},{"startTime":716.406,"endTime":723.683,"body":"if that's just in the little area that we live in."},{"startTime":723.683,"endTime":732.812,"body":"But for example, for my youngest, she started at a school that really didn't know anything"},{"startTime":723.683,"endTime":732.812,"body":"about trauma and really wasn't all that supportive."},{"startTime":732.812,"endTime":737.517,"body":"And they've now got quite a good nurture unit."},{"startTime":737.517,"endTime":743.815,"body":"kids where they identify there might be a bit of a problem, they come into year seven,"},{"startTime":737.517,"endTime":743.815,"body":"which is a huge change for most children anyway."},{"startTime":743.815,"endTime":749.19,"body":"And they say, well, actually we're gonna put you in a much smaller class and we're gonna"},{"startTime":743.815,"endTime":749.19,"body":"keep a lot of the teachers the same."},{"startTime":749.19,"endTime":753.334,"body":"So you're not gonna have to get to know 20 teachers versus the one you had in primary."},{"startTime":753.334,"endTime":758.377,"body":"Instead, you're gonna get to know four or five, you're gonna have some LSAs around as"},{"startTime":753.334,"endTime":758.377,"body":"well."},{"startTime":758.377,"endTime":761.779,"body":"And when you're ready, you can start going into more of your lessons."},{"startTime":761.779,"endTime":767.235,"body":"Now, if that takes you a few weeks to settle, then fine, if it takes you a year, then"},{"startTime":761.779,"endTime":767.235,"body":"that's not a problem either."},{"startTime":767.235,"endTime":768.617,"body":"We're gonna be led by the child."},{"startTime":768.617,"endTime":772.62,"body":"That really, that honestly just did not exist in that school several years ago."},{"startTime":772.62,"endTime":773.871,"body":"So that's a big improvement."},{"startTime":773.871,"endTime":775.979,"body":"And I think, is there any other sort of"},{"startTime":775.979,"endTime":779.112,"body":"Areas you see schools improving like that, any changes?"},{"startTime":779.112,"endTime":780.093,"body":"definitely."},{"startTime":780.093,"endTime":785.917,"body":"mean, you know, when my children were at school, we were absolutely the voice in the"},{"startTime":780.093,"endTime":785.917,"body":"wilderness."},{"startTime":785.917,"endTime":787.038,"body":"mean, 100 percent."},{"startTime":787.038,"endTime":796.106,"body":"I can remember one time when the local authorities seriously suggested to me, I had five"},{"startTime":787.038,"endTime":796.106,"body":"adopted children, that they all five would have to go to separate schools."},{"startTime":796.106,"endTime":801.251,"body":"They were all aged under nine because one school couldn't deal with more than one of them."},{"startTime":801.251,"endTime":804.834,"body":"Well, you imagine the actual practicalities of trying to get five."},{"startTime":804.834,"endTime":807.297,"body":"children to five different schools and pick them all up."},{"startTime":807.297,"endTime":811.892,"body":"So we're a long way from that now, I think."},{"startTime":811.892,"endTime":822.18,"body":"One of the people I was very inspired to meet actually a few years ago was Daniel Thrower"},{"startTime":811.892,"endTime":822.18,"body":"and Anne Oakley and they run some, he's the CEO of the Wentzen Trust, Daniel, and Anne"},{"startTime":822.18,"endTime":825.073,"body":"leads the special education news department."},{"startTime":825.073,"endTime":831.739,"body":"And they have literally transformed the school that they worked at into a trauma school"},{"startTime":825.073,"endTime":831.739,"body":"and then"},{"startTime":831.739,"endTime":839.663,"body":"because the local authority saw that they were saving a lot of money because it's actually"},{"startTime":831.739,"endTime":839.663,"body":"cheaper to do it properly without having all these exclusions."},{"startTime":839.663,"endTime":842.885,"body":"There's now 13 schools in the Norfolk area."},{"startTime":842.885,"endTime":854.074,"body":"I'm a trustee of the Wentzam Trust and they are absolutely trauma aware, trauma focused"},{"startTime":842.885,"endTime":854.074,"body":"and they were part of the team that wrote the A to Z of Trauma Informed Teaching."},{"startTime":854.074,"endTime":857.258,"body":"So I'm very heartened by that because"},{"startTime":857.258,"endTime":865.733,"body":"Then when you go and speak to teachers and head teachers who have their fingers in their"},{"startTime":857.258,"endTime":865.733,"body":"ears say it's not possible, we've all got six reward charts, I can say to them, well,"},{"startTime":865.733,"endTime":869.226,"body":"these people didn't and they work in your field."},{"startTime":869.226,"endTime":870.247,"body":"And guess what?"},{"startTime":870.247,"endTime":877.349,"body":"They have had a better life because of it themselves, not just the children, but the"},{"startTime":870.247,"endTime":877.349,"body":"teachers have a better life too."},{"startTime":877.349,"endTime":879.711,"body":"So then they're interested and they're listening."},{"startTime":879.711,"endTime":889.942,"body":"Yeah, yeah, that reminds me of when I used to do some training in the really sort of early"},{"startTime":879.711,"endTime":889.942,"body":"days, mean, early days for me, certainly, of thinking back sort of six, seven years ago, I"},{"startTime":889.942,"endTime":894.104,"body":"really felt like not many people have heard of a therapeutic approach."},{"startTime":894.104,"endTime":901.357,"body":"And I was going to foster parents who really should have known quite a lot about it and"},{"startTime":894.104,"endTime":901.357,"body":"saying, there's this thing called therapeutic parenting."},{"startTime":901.357,"endTime":903.627,"body":"I really recommend that you read up on it."},{"startTime":903.627,"endTime":904.849,"body":"I'm here to tell you about it."},{"startTime":904.849,"endTime":907.452,"body":"And there was a lot of reluctance, a lot of pushback."},{"startTime":907.452,"endTime":916.837,"body":"And I can remember saying to people, look, do you think as a single parent to three"},{"startTime":907.452,"endTime":916.837,"body":"children with all of their additional complexities and needs that I would be advocated for"},{"startTime":916.837,"endTime":918.588,"body":"something that was hard to work?"},{"startTime":918.588,"endTime":920.839,"body":"Like it just doesn't make any sense, know?"},{"startTime":920.839,"endTime":922.562,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":922.562,"endTime":923.963,"body":"I do think that's what people think."},{"startTime":923.963,"endTime":925.534,"body":"And it's the same in the schools."},{"startTime":925.534,"endTime":932.216,"body":"I think a lot of schools, they worry when you come in and you say you need to adopt a more"},{"startTime":925.534,"endTime":932.216,"body":"trauma informed teaching approach."},{"startTime":932.216,"endTime":937.489,"body":"I think a lot of people worry that A, it's going to cost a lot of money and B, it's going"},{"startTime":932.216,"endTime":937.489,"body":"to be a lot of work."},{"startTime":937.489,"endTime":945.542,"body":"And I think when they realise it's actually quite minor changes and it's more a change in"},{"startTime":937.489,"endTime":945.542,"body":"mindset than anything, when they realise that"},{"startTime":945.542,"endTime":951.729,"body":"then I think you start seeing, and of course people see very quickly, the positive"},{"startTime":945.542,"endTime":951.729,"body":"results."},{"startTime":951.729,"endTime":955.042,"body":"Their life gets a lot better, they have better relationships with the children."},{"startTime":955.042,"endTime":958.366,"body":"That's when you're suddenly pushing against the open door then."},{"startTime":958.366,"endTime":968.243,"body":"Yeah, yeah, and I think, like you say about those small changes and that kind of cultural"},{"startTime":958.366,"endTime":968.243,"body":"shift, I'm thinking of a fantastic retired now head teacher in Scotland, Jennifer Newsome,"},{"startTime":968.243,"endTime":976.639,"body":"and she was really the person that got me to switch from seeing difficult, challenging"},{"startTime":968.243,"endTime":976.639,"body":"behavior and reframing it as distress behavior."},{"startTime":976.639,"endTime":980.213,"body":"And she said, actually that one simple change that we made in the school,"},{"startTime":980.213,"endTime":986.133,"body":"really shifted so much because then suddenly, I know we quite often use the phrase"},{"startTime":980.213,"endTime":986.133,"body":"connection seeking behavior."},{"startTime":986.133,"endTime":992.31,"body":"And I have a slide when I deliver presentation, when I'm doing training and stuff to say,"},{"startTime":986.133,"endTime":992.31,"body":"look at all of these behaviors, really, really tough."},{"startTime":992.31,"endTime":994.402,"body":"Now let's think about them as being connection seeking."},{"startTime":994.402,"endTime":998.608,"body":"Look at how that changes your mindset and look at how it changes how you respond."},{"startTime":998.608,"endTime":1011.501,"body":"Yeah, yeah, because we, Sarah Dillon and I recently did a little chat about, as you know,"},{"startTime":998.608,"endTime":1011.501,"body":"I do a lot of work with rescue dogs and I'm not comparing children to dogs, but trauma is"},{"startTime":1011.501,"endTime":1014.341,"body":"trauma and trauma shows itself in very similar ways."},{"startTime":1014.341,"endTime":1024.412,"body":"And I find it fascinating that when the community that deal with rescue dogs look at their"},{"startTime":1014.341,"endTime":1024.412,"body":"behaviors, it's very rarely they'll say things are always aggressive, always this, always"},{"startTime":1024.412,"endTime":1024.972,"body":"reactive."},{"startTime":1024.972,"endTime":1026.243,"body":"They'll say always."},{"startTime":1026.243,"endTime":1028.014,"body":"frightened, he's had a bad experience."},{"startTime":1028.014,"endTime":1035.271,"body":"The dog community are years ahead of the community working with children."},{"startTime":1035.271,"endTime":1038.824,"body":"They're just not able to often vocalise that."},{"startTime":1038.824,"endTime":1045.949,"body":"And I don't just mean schools, I mean social services as well and the health sector,"},{"startTime":1038.824,"endTime":1045.949,"body":"unfortunately."},{"startTime":1045.949,"endTime":1051.774,"body":"Yeah, yeah, there was a really interesting Rory Ketland Jones, a BBC reporter, I think."},{"startTime":1051.774,"endTime":1056.217,"body":"I know he's now got a book out about this, but he'd adopted a dog from Romania."},{"startTime":1056.217,"endTime":1058.638,"body":"think Sophie, I think the dog was called."},{"startTime":1059.518,"endTime":1061.278,"body":"And yeah, it was really interesting."},{"startTime":1061.278,"endTime":1071.152,"body":"People so latched on to the story and loved seeing the updates of how this dog was slowly"},{"startTime":1061.278,"endTime":1071.152,"body":"starting to settle, starting to feel safe again, bit by bit, one step forward, two steps"},{"startTime":1071.152,"endTime":1071.783,"body":"backwards."},{"startTime":1071.783,"endTime":1080.719,"body":"And as you say, there's that sort of empathy and that curiosity when it comes to animals,"},{"startTime":1071.783,"endTime":1080.719,"body":"but actually we seem to be missing that quite often when it comes to children."},{"startTime":1080.719,"endTime":1085.228,"body":"don't get that, you know, I don't get how there's that huge divide."},{"startTime":1085.228,"endTime":1086.259,"body":"Yeah, it's interesting."},{"startTime":1086.259,"endTime":1093.976,"body":"I think it's to do with the fact that people expect people's expectations of our children"},{"startTime":1086.259,"endTime":1093.976,"body":"are skewed."},{"startTime":1093.976,"endTime":1101.293,"body":"So they expect that they can explain something to the child and they would understand that"},{"startTime":1093.976,"endTime":1101.293,"body":"and change their behavior."},{"startTime":1101.293,"endTime":1109.361,"body":"So, for example, you wouldn't say to rescue dog, look, I know you had a really difficult"},{"startTime":1101.293,"endTime":1109.361,"body":"time in your last and it was terrible to you and you know, but now it's going to be OK."},{"startTime":1109.361,"endTime":1112.767,"body":"You would laugh if that was if that was a strategy, people laugh at."},{"startTime":1112.767,"endTime":1123.562,"body":"And yet we absolutely, some people think that's a good strategy to use with children, to"},{"startTime":1112.767,"endTime":1123.562,"body":"sit down with a terrified child who can't hear you and isn't listening and tell them that"},{"startTime":1123.562,"endTime":1125.684,"body":"it's all right now and you should be grateful."},{"startTime":1125.684,"endTime":1129.207,"body":"find that, I mean, I'm beyond this stage when I'd be worried about it."},{"startTime":1129.207,"endTime":1137.043,"body":"I find it interesting that that link has not been made and everything, especially in the"},{"startTime":1129.207,"endTime":1137.043,"body":"education system is done."},{"startTime":1137.043,"endTime":1139.294,"body":"approach in a very logical way."},{"startTime":1139.294,"endTime":1144.065,"body":"The child is this age and therefore they should be able to do X, Y, Z."},{"startTime":1144.065,"endTime":1155.985,"body":"And I think the resistance to change we see is almost around, you know years ago when they"},{"startTime":1144.065,"endTime":1155.985,"body":"had the Disability Discrimination Act where all the shopkeepers had to put slopes in so"},{"startTime":1155.985,"endTime":1157.736,"body":"all wheelchairs could access."},{"startTime":1157.736,"endTime":1161.536,"body":"That's an example of changing the pegs to fit the person, isn't it?"},{"startTime":1161.536,"endTime":1163.778,"body":"They changed the entrances to all the shops."},{"startTime":1163.778,"endTime":1165.389,"body":"So somebody will check go everywhere."},{"startTime":1165.389,"endTime":1168.452,"body":"That's all we need to do in education."},{"startTime":1168.452,"endTime":1170.444,"body":"And now people don't even think about that."},{"startTime":1170.444,"endTime":1177.269,"body":"But at the time there's a lot of resistance and it was almost like, well, can't they just"},{"startTime":1170.444,"endTime":1177.269,"body":"park their wheelchair outside and just walk in those few steps?"},{"startTime":1177.269,"endTime":1180.411,"body":"There was people seriously saying that kind of thing."},{"startTime":1180.411,"endTime":1183.924,"body":"And I think we're seeing that same model now in education."},{"startTime":1183.924,"endTime":1185.546,"body":"Hopefully we're in the death throes."},{"startTime":1185.546,"endTime":1186.457,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1186.457,"endTime":1191.167,"body":"Like you say, I think it's trying to sort of force logic out of a situation that isn't"},{"startTime":1186.457,"endTime":1191.167,"body":"that logical."},{"startTime":1191.167,"endTime":1196.132,"body":"I think it's interesting as well, because my background's in kind of marketing and"},{"startTime":1191.167,"endTime":1196.132,"body":"advertising and stuff."},{"startTime":1196.132,"endTime":1199.873,"body":"quite quickly you learn there that human beings like to think that they're logical."},{"startTime":1199.873,"endTime":1203.165,"body":"Even if we take trauma out of the mix, they like to think they're logical."},{"startTime":1203.165,"endTime":1207.928,"body":"Then you're like, okay, well, why would someone spend that much on a car or why would"},{"startTime":1203.165,"endTime":1207.928,"body":"someone spend this much on a hot?"},{"startTime":1207.928,"endTime":1209.902,"body":"It's all because we're not that logical."},{"startTime":1209.902,"endTime":1219.191,"body":"we make an emotional decision or one that's influenced by the way that we feel, and then"},{"startTime":1209.902,"endTime":1219.191,"body":"we try to use logic to justify the fact that we've just spent that much money or whatever"},{"startTime":1219.191,"endTime":1220.101,"body":"it is."},{"startTime":1220.962,"endTime":1224.276,"body":"Okay, I was just thinking, should we do the question?"},{"startTime":1224.276,"endTime":1225.386,"body":"Because I don't want to run out of time."},{"startTime":1225.386,"endTime":1227.258,"body":"So we've got a question here."},{"startTime":1227.258,"endTime":1235.014,"body":"So I've taken this one from the Facebook group that we've got where we get a lot of"},{"startTime":1227.258,"endTime":1235.014,"body":"fantastic questions from people trying to do therapeutic parenting."},{"startTime":1235.014,"endTime":1237.105,"body":"A tricky, interesting journey always."},{"startTime":1237.105,"endTime":1240.937,"body":"So this one has come through from a therapeutic parent."},{"startTime":1240.937,"endTime":1241.578,"body":"They say,"},{"startTime":1241.578,"endTime":1243.38,"body":"I thought that was quite an interesting point there."},{"startTime":1243.38,"endTime":1251.105,"body":"And then they finish with, would an eight year old use crying as a tool to get out of"},{"startTime":1243.38,"endTime":1251.105,"body":"something or could this be meltdown type behavior or something else?"},{"startTime":1251.105,"endTime":1254.588,"body":"And they do mention as well, there's a family history of autism and ADHD."},{"startTime":1254.588,"endTime":1256.46,"body":"So that's at the back of my mind too."},{"startTime":1256.46,"endTime":1258.302,"body":"What's your thoughts on that?"},{"startTime":1258.302,"endTime":1265.384,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I think the, don't know if this child is adopted or fostered or if he's a"},{"startTime":1258.302,"endTime":1265.384,"body":"child from trauma, he?"},{"startTime":1265.384,"endTime":1266.373,"body":"Do you know that?"},{"startTime":1266.373,"endTime":1268.913,"body":"We don't have that detail, no, no."},{"startTime":1268.913,"endTime":1277.829,"body":"but on that site, we know that the majority of parents are carvers children from trauma"},{"startTime":1268.913,"endTime":1277.829,"body":"and there's definitely obviously some neurodiversity from wherever."},{"startTime":1277.829,"endTime":1281.882,"body":"I think the reaction of the family member is absolutely what we've been talking about."},{"startTime":1281.882,"endTime":1292.991,"body":"That desire to minimise, you know, our children are very complex and they require a lot of"},{"startTime":1281.882,"endTime":1292.991,"body":"thinking about and a lot of skilled intervention and a lot of people simply are not able"},{"startTime":1292.991,"endTime":1295.264,"body":"to and don't want, especially extended family."},{"startTime":1295.264,"endTime":1308.304,"body":"busy people so they will minimize the actual what's going on, the actions and in order to"},{"startTime":1295.264,"endTime":1308.304,"body":"solve it, all you need to do is, there's a lot of that, all you need to do, oh just do so"},{"startTime":1308.304,"endTime":1308.855,"body":"and so."},{"startTime":1308.855,"endTime":1316.166,"body":"We have people say, don't we, oh send them back or tell them, sit them down and talk to"},{"startTime":1308.855,"endTime":1316.166,"body":"them about their behavior."},{"startTime":1316.166,"endTime":1320.177,"body":"Now I think one of the things that frustrates me a lot is when people,"},{"startTime":1320.177,"endTime":1327.4,"body":"try to insinuate that our children are manipulative and that crying and being distressed"},{"startTime":1320.177,"endTime":1327.4,"body":"is manipulation."},{"startTime":1327.4,"endTime":1333.682,"body":"Now I'm not saying that no children are ever manipulative, but the point is that's not"},{"startTime":1327.4,"endTime":1333.682,"body":"their intention."},{"startTime":1333.682,"endTime":1340.905,"body":"In order to be manipulative, we can be manipulated as caring adults, but that's not the"},{"startTime":1333.682,"endTime":1340.905,"body":"child's intention."},{"startTime":1340.905,"endTime":1343.167,"body":"The child is in survival mode, do you think?"},{"startTime":1343.167,"endTime":1343.997,"body":"Yeah, yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":1343.997,"endTime":1353.661,"body":"I think that's, even if we did go as far as calling it manipulation, it's like, actually"},{"startTime":1343.997,"endTime":1353.661,"body":"to manipulate someone else so that I survive, so that I get to have this secure attachment"},{"startTime":1353.661,"endTime":1357.562,"body":"that I absolutely desperately need for my own survival, well, okay, that's fine."},{"startTime":1357.562,"endTime":1361.495,"body":"So I'll manipulate, I'll manipulate everyone around me because I need to live."},{"startTime":1361.495,"endTime":1363.356,"body":"Like that's just seems totally logical."},{"startTime":1363.356,"endTime":1366.5,"body":"And I think it's, that response from parents,"},{"startTime":1366.5,"endTime":1376.228,"body":"people in education, sometimes social workers, depending on the world that you're in, is"},{"startTime":1366.5,"endTime":1376.228,"body":"so frustrating because actually you are trying very hard to understand the child and the"},{"startTime":1376.228,"endTime":1379.931,"body":"behavior that is in front of you that is really complex."},{"startTime":1379.931,"endTime":1384.674,"body":"Quite often, you will be at the very least scratching around the surface of getting things"},{"startTime":1379.931,"endTime":1384.674,"body":"right."},{"startTime":1384.674,"endTime":1393.164,"body":"You will be getting there, but that's still really tough to then be told by other people"},{"startTime":1384.674,"endTime":1393.164,"body":"who have never done it before that you're getting it wrong and actually..."},{"startTime":1393.164,"endTime":1396.486,"body":"you're a pushover and you just need to take a harder line."},{"startTime":1396.486,"endTime":1406.142,"body":"And all of these things that we now know will just make life much, much harder for that"},{"startTime":1396.486,"endTime":1406.142,"body":"child and much harder for that family, potentially leading to breakdowns and children not"},{"startTime":1406.142,"endTime":1409.675,"body":"being able to stay where they are and all of those really extreme outcomes."},{"startTime":1409.675,"endTime":1416.729,"body":"It's just so infuriating to kind of, I think that was when I read it, that bit of family"},{"startTime":1409.675,"endTime":1416.729,"body":"member laughed and said, I'm just being played."},{"startTime":1416.729,"endTime":1418.741,"body":"That was the bit that really hit me."},{"startTime":1418.741,"endTime":1426.485,"body":"It wasn't there because the other stuff I thought well actually yeah an eight-year-old"},{"startTime":1418.741,"endTime":1426.485,"body":"that's experienced early life trauma crying a lot probably an appropriate response"},{"startTime":1426.485,"endTime":1427.085,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1427.085,"endTime":1427.725,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1427.725,"endTime":1428.025,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1428.025,"endTime":1434.027,"body":"And also I did notice that you said about homework, you know, the child has issues around"},{"startTime":1428.025,"endTime":1434.027,"body":"homework."},{"startTime":1434.027,"endTime":1443.739,"body":"And of course, you know, as therapeutic parents, I always say we don't do homework because"},{"startTime":1434.027,"endTime":1443.739,"body":"when you do homework, you are bringing school into home and school is a very difficult"},{"startTime":1443.739,"endTime":1444.99,"body":"place for our children."},{"startTime":1444.99,"endTime":1447.27,"body":"I'm not saying that we undermine it, we sabotage it."},{"startTime":1447.27,"endTime":1449.79,"body":"You've got a child who wants to do homework and looks forward to it."},{"startTime":1449.79,"endTime":1452.832,"body":"I've never met one to be honest, but you know,"},{"startTime":1452.832,"endTime":1454.693,"body":"then obviously we're going to allow that to happen."},{"startTime":1454.693,"endTime":1461.069,"body":"But I learnt really early on that my children couldn't cope with the transition of me"},{"startTime":1454.693,"endTime":1461.069,"body":"changing from mum to teacher."},{"startTime":1461.069,"endTime":1465.072,"body":"And I don't care how good my children are at their timetables."},{"startTime":1465.072,"endTime":1474.76,"body":"If they can't make relationships, if they can't grow up to be parents themselves and to"},{"startTime":1465.072,"endTime":1474.76,"body":"have empathy and meet their child's needs, they can't really contribute to anything else."},{"startTime":1474.76,"endTime":1479.905,"body":"So all of the stuff we're doing, the therapeutic parenting, the creating attachments,"},{"startTime":1479.905,"endTime":1482.406,"body":"That's much more important than schoolwork."},{"startTime":1482.406,"endTime":1491.189,"body":"So if my children had to do homework, they'd stay at school and do an after school"},{"startTime":1482.406,"endTime":1491.189,"body":"homework club, because then you're keeping homework at school, which is where it belongs."},{"startTime":1491.189,"endTime":1500.803,"body":"But it sounds to me like this little eight year old needs a lot of unpacking, needs a lot"},{"startTime":1491.189,"endTime":1500.803,"body":"of reassurance and probably a lot of parental presence because that's what our children"},{"startTime":1500.803,"endTime":1501.524,"body":"miss, isn't it?"},{"startTime":1501.524,"endTime":1505.346,"body":"When they're young, they they're often been left alone for long periods of time."},{"startTime":1505.346,"endTime":1506.196,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1506.196,"endTime":1512.139,"body":"I was, because I was thinking that bit about, because they give homework as an example and"},{"startTime":1506.196,"endTime":1512.139,"body":"then I'm tidying their room."},{"startTime":1512.139,"endTime":1516.701,"body":"So I find that definitely with my three, they actually don't have an issue with tidying"},{"startTime":1512.139,"endTime":1516.701,"body":"their room."},{"startTime":1516.701,"endTime":1518.802,"body":"They have an issue with being in their room on their own."},{"startTime":1518.802,"endTime":1522.154,"body":"They don't like being up there where they're away from everyone else."},{"startTime":1522.154,"endTime":1527.296,"body":"So if I go and really I'm not helping that much, but I'm just there, I'm just present."},{"startTime":1527.296,"endTime":1529.547,"body":"They will stay in their room and they will do what they need to do."},{"startTime":1529.547,"endTime":1531.037,"body":"They're quite happy to do that."},{"startTime":1531.037,"endTime":1532.619,"body":"So as you say, it's about kind of like"},{"startTime":1532.619,"endTime":1533.679,"body":"know, digging a little bit."},{"startTime":1533.679,"endTime":1537.201,"body":"I mean, I definitely think with homework, we've made that mistake."},{"startTime":1537.201,"endTime":1545.412,"body":"You know, my idea when the kids arrive was, yeah, okay, I'll just, you know, I'll provide"},{"startTime":1537.201,"endTime":1545.412,"body":"a, you know, a nice warm home and a roof over their head."},{"startTime":1545.412,"endTime":1547.752,"body":"And so they'll go into school and they'll get A's and B's."},{"startTime":1547.752,"endTime":1548.723,"body":"Of course they will."},{"startTime":1548.723,"endTime":1557.345,"body":"You know, I sort of changed my attitude on that and really shifted to thinking, as you"},{"startTime":1548.723,"endTime":1557.345,"body":"said, you know, actually I say to my kids, you have a lifetime to get whatever education"},{"startTime":1557.345,"endTime":1557.916,"body":"you want."},{"startTime":1557.916,"endTime":1559.567,"body":"Right now you need to be a child."},{"startTime":1559.567,"endTime":1561.319,"body":"and that's what we need to focus on."},{"startTime":1561.319,"endTime":1570.888,"body":"And I think I can think of one or two occasions where for whatever reason something had"},{"startTime":1561.319,"endTime":1570.888,"body":"happened at home or bad morning or whatever it was and the kid then goes into school, you"},{"startTime":1570.888,"endTime":1573.181,"body":"know, know you're getting a phone call from school."},{"startTime":1573.181,"endTime":1579.557,"body":"My argument then in the future will be, well, look, that's what they're like when they"},{"startTime":1573.181,"endTime":1579.557,"body":"come in when they aren't safe and calm."},{"startTime":1579.557,"endTime":1583.38,"body":"If you want me to deliver them like that every morning, then that's absolutely fine."},{"startTime":1583.38,"endTime":1584.222,"body":"But actually,"},{"startTime":1584.222,"endTime":1592.494,"body":"I'm focusing on doing my job, which is delivering them to you in the morning, feeling"},{"startTime":1584.222,"endTime":1592.494,"body":"happy, knowing that they're safe where they live, all of those other things."},{"startTime":1592.494,"endTime":1596.61,"body":"That's the only thing that's gonna give them any chance to learn."},{"startTime":1596.61,"endTime":1598.222,"body":"Yeah, it definitely is."},{"startTime":1598.222,"endTime":1605.945,"body":"I think that, you know, I said to my children's school very early on really, know, school"},{"startTime":1598.222,"endTime":1605.945,"body":"stays at school, home stays at home."},{"startTime":1605.945,"endTime":1612.959,"body":"Schools are quite good at trying to get us to put in consequences at home for stuff that"},{"startTime":1605.945,"endTime":1612.959,"body":"they did at school."},{"startTime":1612.959,"endTime":1616.981,"body":"And sometimes, you know, our children have misbehaved and sometimes they haven't."},{"startTime":1616.981,"endTime":1619.842,"body":"Sometimes the schools got it wrong and they've set the children up to fail."},{"startTime":1619.842,"endTime":1624.735,"body":"So I always say, you know, your child needs one person in their corner and that's got to"},{"startTime":1619.842,"endTime":1624.735,"body":"be you."},{"startTime":1624.735,"endTime":1630.059,"body":"So when the school found out and said, you your daughter's done XYZ and you need to talk"},{"startTime":1624.735,"endTime":1630.059,"body":"to her about it."},{"startTime":1630.059,"endTime":1631.24,"body":"I said, do you know what?"},{"startTime":1631.24,"endTime":1635.073,"body":"I'm not going to do that because this happened at school with you."},{"startTime":1635.073,"endTime":1641.627,"body":"You were there, you know, I'm going to create space for her to talk to me, but I'm there"},{"startTime":1635.073,"endTime":1641.627,"body":"to offer her support."},{"startTime":1641.627,"endTime":1644.238,"body":"If the school put in a detention, wouldn't undermine it."},{"startTime":1644.238,"endTime":1645.561,"body":"I wouldn't say don't go."},{"startTime":1645.561,"endTime":1652.029,"body":"But what I would say is, unfortunately, yeah, you're supposed to do detention today, but"},{"startTime":1645.561,"endTime":1652.029,"body":"don't worry, when you get home, I'll have a little treat for you."},{"startTime":1652.029,"endTime":1653.812,"body":"It's about trying to work with that."},{"startTime":1653.812,"endTime":1658.638,"body":"I didn't expect the headmaster to come round to our house and check my children are tied"},{"startTime":1653.812,"endTime":1658.638,"body":"to their bedrooms."},{"startTime":1658.638,"endTime":1663.252,"body":"So at the same way, I'm not going to be following through consequences for school."},{"startTime":1663.252,"endTime":1666.537,"body":"I think that's a very important distinction for our children."},{"startTime":1666.537,"endTime":1668.53,"body":"Yeah, and I think it's interesting, isn't it?"},{"startTime":1668.53,"endTime":1678.643,"body":"Because actually when you think about like a one day exclusion or isolation, you spend the"},{"startTime":1668.53,"endTime":1678.643,"body":"day at home, that really mostly inconvenience, the inconvenience is the parent."},{"startTime":1678.643,"endTime":1685.963,"body":"And so the idea is, I suppose, that the parent gets really annoyed and says, you need to"},{"startTime":1678.643,"endTime":1685.963,"body":"sort out your behavior because now I have to take a day off work or whatever."},{"startTime":1685.963,"endTime":1692.528,"body":"And actually the way that we used to do it was to kind of say, look, we need to have a"},{"startTime":1685.963,"endTime":1692.528,"body":"chat about what's happened because, you know, if you've hurt someone or you've done"},{"startTime":1692.528,"endTime":1695.291,"body":"something you shouldn't, then let's understand why."},{"startTime":1695.291,"endTime":1698.934,"body":"But that day where you're going to be at home, let's go out for the day."},{"startTime":1698.934,"endTime":1704.158,"body":"You know, let's do, you know, let's, you know, I can see that what you need right now is"},{"startTime":1698.934,"endTime":1704.158,"body":"some time with me."},{"startTime":1704.158,"endTime":1713.497,"body":"So let's connect, you know, and we know that our kids, if they know that the relationship"},{"startTime":1704.158,"endTime":1713.497,"body":"with their primary caregiver is okay, that's the foundation and everything else can kind"},{"startTime":1713.497,"endTime":1714.458,"body":"of build from there."},{"startTime":1714.458,"endTime":1715.062,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1715.062,"endTime":1720.835,"body":"All right, I'd quite happily talk about this for another half hour or so, but yeah, if we"},{"startTime":1715.062,"endTime":1720.835,"body":"wrap that up and yeah, that was great."},{"startTime":1720.835,"endTime":1721.557,"body":"Thank you, Sarah."},{"startTime":1721.557,"endTime":1722.818,"body":"Thanks very much."},{"startTime":1722.994,"endTime":1723.626,"body":"Thank you."}]}