TRAUMA TALKS #1: Transforming Education for Trauma-Affected Children

In this conversation, Sarah Naish discusses the challenges faced by children with trauma in educational settings with Gareth K. Thomas. They examine the limitations of current school policies, the significance of trauma-informed approaches, and the necessity for collaboration between parents and schools. The discussion emphasises the necessity of understanding children’s behaviours as responses to trauma and the importance of creating supportive environments for their development.

Part of the TRAUMA TALKS series from The Centre of Excellence in Child Trauma, here on The Therapeutic Parenting Podcast.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Trauma Talks
• 1:12 Understanding Trauma in Education
• 9:07 Collaborative Approaches with Schools
• 14:15 Positive Changes in Educational Practices
• 19:03 The Importance of Empathy in Education
• 22:04 Addressing Parental Concerns in Therapeutic Parenting

Transcript

0:00

Hi, Sarah. Yeah, good, good. OK, so this is the this is the first episode then of our new podcast series, Trauma Talks from the Centre of Excellence in Child Trauma. So, I just do a quick intro to sort of make sure everyone knows who you are and what you're you're up to. Sure, yeah. So my name's Sarah Naish. I'm a therapeutic parent, a doctor and former foster parent, and I'm the CEO of the Centre for Excellence in Child Trauma. We do a lot of work in there to make sure that people are aware, are trauma aware and practising, and I'm a bestselling author of therapeutic parenting books. Amazing, think I've got them, I'm blurred out, but they're all stacked behind me there. Yeah, and so I'm Gareth, I fostered three children about eight years ago, and that kind of got me on the journey to therapeutic parenting. I realized I needed to figure something out, because what I was doing at the time wasn't working. And yeah, that's kind of led me to here where I work with Center of Excellence. We do lots of training and working with professionals and parents. all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I think the format we're gonna follow for these episodes is we're gonna kind of do a little bit of a take on a hot topic. So there's always stuff floating about in the news and on social media. Then we're gonna do a bit of a deep dive and talk about kind of stuff that comes up and take a closer look at things. And then I'm gonna try and end each episode with a question, things that are being raised either on our Facebook group or things that people have messaged through to us. and we'll kind of give our take on that. So the one I wanted to start with today was actually shared to me by one of our foster parents and it's a school here in Wales, the story about a school. So the title of the article is, after more than 250 punishments from teachers, his parents took on the school and they found out the truth. So typical sort of catchy headline. But I'll just give like an overview of what the article is. So it's got a photo here of Keon Mills 15 with his parents, Julie and Alden at his home in Port Talbot. Keon's home educated after his parents took him out of the school in June, 2024. So the overview here at the start of the article, I'll just read it to bring people up to speed is, a school has been ordered to apologize to a pupil and his parents and update its behavior policy after a tribunal found it had discriminated against him. An educational tribunal Wales hearing concluded that the school in Port Talbot failed to reasonably support Keir Mills and discriminated against him in the way it applied its behavior policy. And so it goes on to kind of say about how they home educate him now that his ADHD and dyslexia weren't taken into consideration rather than being helped at school. He was basically given a string of detentions, exclusions and isolations for, as they put it, tiny things that they were worried for his wellbeing. So I mean, what's your thoughts on that? Well, I mean, sadly, it's a very familiar story, isn't it, to us? We hear this all the time whenever I do training. If I even mention school, the whole presentation can get hijacked. So that's why we've got separate presentations and workshops for schools. It's the old adage of, you know, trying to fit the square pegs into the round holes and they just keep bashing the kids harder and harder to try and make them fit into the... round hole when of course what they need to do is change the shape of the holes in the board in the first place so that all children can fit in it. Yeah. And it feels like, I mean, to me, it just feels that there's more square pegs now than ever before. It feels like more kids just don't fit into the system. It's not like, you know, it's not these sort of small groups that I'm chatting to where they're kind of saying, yeah, kids are on the fringe, on the edge and they don't really fit. That's what it was, I felt like when I was in school, the majority fitted, but some didn't. Whereas now it feels like it's gone over 50%. I definitely think it's been over 50 % for quite a while and I see that when I do my training with schools, if you've got like head teachers in there, they quite often come with the training feeling like you can see in their faces, you know, oh, another training boring sort of thing I've got to do. But actually when I start talking to them and explain, we're not just talking about children that are fostered or children that are adopted, any child that suffered trauma. I mean, any child that suffered trauma and still with a birth family is going to have these issues. And as we know, ADHD is very commonly misdiagnosed and really it's response to trauma. But then you've got all the other issues with children where perhaps something has happened early on in their life. Maybe there's been medical issues or something like that. And as a result, we're seeing these come out in school. when we add it all up, I asked the head teachers, how many children are fostered, percentage rise? How many adopted, percentage rise? how many do you think are on the edge of care? And we are always over 60%. So we're not talking about the minority. And interestingly, you know, we're just coming into the dreaded like exam time. And I was speaking to a guy recently who invigilates and is in charge of, you know, sorting out all the exams in a secondary school. And he said to me, you know, at the moment we've got so many kids that have got anxiety. and we're supposed to be making special arrangements for them. And he said, I don't understand it. He said, I think they just need to get a grip and get on with it. We didn't have all this when I was a kid. I was like, no. Yeah, yeah. And I think there is that sense, there, that it's almost, know, yeah, I could see that divide where people really feel that the solution to this is to stop being so soft, is to, you know, actually go back in the direction that we've come from because everyone was fine then. And actually, you know, it's just that all of these kids were buried and hidden away and really, really struggled and possibly then went on into later life and carried those struggles with them. And actually, a big thing that we advocate for, it works well for across neurodivergence because it's actually just quite a human response. It's actually just, let's take the time to build relationships and work through that. But then again, I think from the response that I quite often see, it's just dismissed then as the thing that winds me up all the time is when people say, yeah, we know what you're saying. Just call them into the room. Don't give them a detention. Just call them in and give them a hot chocolate and then just tell them not to worry about the fact that they've just hit another kid or whatever. And it's just such a frustrating minimization and dismissal of everything that therapeutic approaches stand for. Just infuriates me. It's interesting because I think change is difficult for people and I was speaking to the guy who runs the neuroplasticity network and we were talking about this resistance that there is out there where people hang on to outdated models and he was saying that if you have a model that you've been taught and you stick to, like with teaching, for example, what happens is you go in and you talk about that and you defend your model and you keep defending it. But then one day somebody comes along and is basically talking about a different model, which effectively removes the legs off yours. You got two choices. You either adapt and realise your model is now defunct or you carry on defending your model to the hip. Well, what we see a lot of in education in particular. is people who are defending to their last breath the outdated models that do not work for children that are neurodiverse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's a real frustration because it feels like at the same time, education is saying, look, this is not manageable anymore. We can't cope with this. And then when people come along and say, okay, well, here's a different way of doing it. They say, well, no, we're not doing it a different way. We're sticking with what we've got. And it's like, well, what is going to change? And really, I think ultimately what people are quite often saying in a way is, we only want to teach the kids that come into school ready to learn. We don't wanna teach the kids that have additional needs or have a tough home life or any of those things. And that's not how state education works. I'm sorry, it just doesn't. Yet we know that some schools are very selective and they're quite open about it sometimes. And even you speak to communities, they kind of think, well, no, we all know we wouldn't send our kids to that school because they won't. be supported properly there. Perhaps that brings us on to, because what I wanted to do, I didn't want to go all doom and gloom on schools and I knew that that article would probably take us there. So I was thinking for today's deep dive of looking at ways of working with schools. And I'm happy to kind of share that from my experience, we had, for my three, we had a fantastic relationship with two primary schools actually. I just found them to be really welcoming, really nurturing. If there was a problem, you could go in, you could speak to them, lots of face to face. And that worked pretty well. With secondary school, and all of my kids have gone through a very, very big secondary school, it's been really tough. You know, we're in a much better place now than we were, but actually trying to get a foot through the door and just trying to have those conversations to say, look, I know this is your behavior policy. but my kids need a different approach. This isn't gonna work for them. It's only gonna make life for you guys in that school much, much harder. That was really tough and it still can be bit of an ongoing challenge. And I wonder, in terms of working with schools, working collaboratively, how do we do that? How do we start to make that happen? Well, I think the way that you've mentioned it, mean, that's how lot of parents start off, isn't it? We start off because we can see that it's not working for our children. You know, we can see that there's a problem with them. So I think we start off by letting the school know, like you did, that this doesn't work for my child. And not only does it not work for them, it never will. And when I did that with my children, I also said, and it's also not working for the other children you've got there that are neurodiverse. So they did accept some training, you know, they did accept that, which was great. And once I got in there and did some training, happy days, it improved a bit. But most parents aren't in the position to go in and provide free training for the school. So I think that's why, you know, we've written some of the books and we do our training ourselves. But that's also why a lot of parents end up changing schools, they move, don't they? We moved 125 miles for my children to go into a school that I felt was able to meet their needs for at least the next few years. So we do a lot of that kind of thing as well. But now, because of the centre exits in Child Trauma and also Beacon House and other places, there are a lot of resources out there that are really useful, which parents can download and can give to the school because I think that It doesn't matter how highly educated you are, it doesn't matter what you do for a living. As far as the school are concerned, you are so-and-so's mum or so-and-so's dad, and it's much easier to dismiss you like that. But when you are giving a resource from us, signed by experts in the field, saying, well, know, any queries, please come back to us at Centre for Excellence in Child Trauma, that's much more difficult to argue with, I think. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think one of the things I've found and it goes back to the point you were making earlier of the model that you work from. So quite often I find schools are so entrenched in the way that they handle difficulty in terms of behavioral policies and stuff like that, that actually if you as a parent go in and say, well, no, actually look, my kid is not staying behind for after school detention. That's not something that I support. what they're gonna do is they're gonna come home and I'm gonna stick to their routine. and that's what's gonna work for them. You kind of get labeled as defiant and all the other labels that they get given to children. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, well, hold on a minute. No, don't put me in that box. I'm here like trying to work with you. I'm not fighting against you. So yeah, I think that's a real struggle. And as I said, I would say as well, I have seen an improvement in schools and I don't know if that's just in the little area that we live in. But for example, for my youngest, she started at a school that really didn't know anything about trauma and really wasn't all that supportive. And they've now got quite a good nurture unit. kids where they identify there might be a bit of a problem, they come into year seven, which is a huge change for most children anyway. And they say, well, actually we're gonna put you in a much smaller class and we're gonna keep a lot of the teachers the same. So you're not gonna have to get to know 20 teachers versus the one you had in primary. Instead, you're gonna get to know four or five, you're gonna have some LSAs around as well. And when you're ready, you can start going into more of your lessons. Now, if that takes you a few weeks to settle, then fine, if it takes you a year, then that's not a problem either. We're gonna be led by the child. That really, that honestly just did not exist in that school several years ago. So that's a big improvement. And I think, is there any other sort of Areas you see schools improving like that, any changes? definitely. mean, you know, when my children were at school, we were absolutely the voice in the wilderness. mean, 100 percent. I can remember one time when the local authorities seriously suggested to me, I had five adopted children, that they all five would have to go to separate schools. They were all aged under nine because one school couldn't deal with more than one of them. Well, you imagine the actual practicalities of trying to get five. children to five different schools and pick them all up. So we're a long way from that now, I think. One of the people I was very inspired to meet actually a few years ago was Daniel Thrower and Anne Oakley and they run some, he's the CEO of the Wentzen Trust, Daniel, and Anne leads the special education news department. And they have literally transformed the school that they worked at into a trauma school and then because the local authority saw that they were saving a lot of money because it's actually cheaper to do it properly without having all these exclusions. There's now 13 schools in the Norfolk area. I'm a trustee of the Wentzam Trust and they are absolutely trauma aware, trauma focused and they were part of the team that wrote the A to Z of Trauma Informed Teaching. So I'm very heartened by that because Then when you go and speak to teachers and head teachers who have their fingers in their ears say it's not possible, we've all got six reward charts, I can say to them, well, these people didn't and they work in your field. And guess what? They have had a better life because of it themselves, not just the children, but the teachers have a better life too. So then they're interested and they're listening. Yeah, yeah, that reminds me of when I used to do some training in the really sort of early days, mean, early days for me, certainly, of thinking back sort of six, seven years ago, I really felt like not many people have heard of a therapeutic approach. And I was going to foster parents who really should have known quite a lot about it and saying, there's this thing called therapeutic parenting. I really recommend that you read up on it. I'm here to tell you about it. And there was a lot of reluctance, a lot of pushback. And I can remember saying to people, look, do you think as a single parent to three children with all of their additional complexities and needs that I would be advocated for something that was hard to work? Like it just doesn't make any sense, know? Yeah. I do think that's what people think. And it's the same in the schools. I think a lot of schools, they worry when you come in and you say you need to adopt a more trauma informed teaching approach. I think a lot of people worry that A, it's going to cost a lot of money and B, it's going to be a lot of work. And I think when they realise it's actually quite minor changes and it's more a change in mindset than anything, when they realise that then I think you start seeing, and of course people see very quickly, the positive results. Their life gets a lot better, they have better relationships with the children. That's when you're suddenly pushing against the open door then. Yeah, yeah, and I think, like you say about those small changes and that kind of cultural shift, I'm thinking of a fantastic retired now head teacher in Scotland, Jennifer Newsome, and she was really the person that got me to switch from seeing difficult, challenging behavior and reframing it as distress behavior. And she said, actually that one simple change that we made in the school, really shifted so much because then suddenly, I know we quite often use the phrase connection seeking behavior. And I have a slide when I deliver presentation, when I'm doing training and stuff to say, look at all of these behaviors, really, really tough. Now let's think about them as being connection seeking. Look at how that changes your mindset and look at how it changes how you respond. Yeah, yeah, because we, Sarah Dillon and I recently did a little chat about, as you know, I do a lot of work with rescue dogs and I'm not comparing children to dogs, but trauma is trauma and trauma shows itself in very similar ways. And I find it fascinating that when the community that deal with rescue dogs look at their behaviors, it's very rarely they'll say things are always aggressive, always this, always reactive. They'll say always. frightened, he's had a bad experience. The dog community are years ahead of the community working with children. They're just not able to often vocalise that. And I don't just mean schools, I mean social services as well and the health sector, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah, there was a really interesting Rory Ketland Jones, a BBC reporter, I think. I know he's now got a book out about this, but he'd adopted a dog from Romania. think Sophie, I think the dog was called. And yeah, it was really interesting. People so latched on to the story and loved seeing the updates of how this dog was slowly starting to settle, starting to feel safe again, bit by bit, one step forward, two steps backwards. And as you say, there's that sort of empathy and that curiosity when it comes to animals, but actually we seem to be missing that quite often when it comes to children. don't get that, you know, I don't get how there's that huge divide. Yeah, it's interesting. I think it's to do with the fact that people expect people's expectations of our children are skewed. So they expect that they can explain something to the child and they would understand that and change their behavior. So, for example, you wouldn't say to rescue dog, look, I know you had a really difficult time in your last and it was terrible to you and you know, but now it's going to be OK. You would laugh if that was if that was a strategy, people laugh at. And yet we absolutely, some people think that's a good strategy to use with children, to sit down with a terrified child who can't hear you and isn't listening and tell them that it's all right now and you should be grateful. find that, I mean, I'm beyond this stage when I'd be worried about it. I find it interesting that that link has not been made and everything, especially in the education system is done. approach in a very logical way. The child is this age and therefore they should be able to do X, Y, Z. And I think the resistance to change we see is almost around, you know years ago when they had the Disability Discrimination Act where all the shopkeepers had to put slopes in so all wheelchairs could access. That's an example of changing the pegs to fit the person, isn't it? They changed the entrances to all the shops. So somebody will check go everywhere. That's all we need to do in education. And now people don't even think about that. But at the time there's a lot of resistance and it was almost like, well, can't they just park their wheelchair outside and just walk in those few steps? There was people seriously saying that kind of thing. And I think we're seeing that same model now in education. Hopefully we're in the death throes. Yeah, yeah. Like you say, I think it's trying to sort of force logic out of a situation that isn't that logical. I think it's interesting as well, because my background's in kind of marketing and advertising and stuff. quite quickly you learn there that human beings like to think that they're logical. Even if we take trauma out of the mix, they like to think they're logical. Then you're like, okay, well, why would someone spend that much on a car or why would someone spend this much on a hot? It's all because we're not that logical. we make an emotional decision or one that's influenced by the way that we feel, and then we try to use logic to justify the fact that we've just spent that much money or whatever it is. Okay, I was just thinking, should we do the question? Because I don't want to run out of time. So we've got a question here. So I've taken this one from the Facebook group that we've got where we get a lot of fantastic questions from people trying to do therapeutic parenting. A tricky, interesting journey always. So this one has come through from a therapeutic parent. They say, I thought that was quite an interesting point there. And then they finish with, would an eight year old use crying as a tool to get out of something or could this be meltdown type behavior or something else? And they do mention as well, there's a family history of autism and ADHD. So that's at the back of my mind too. What's your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, I think the, don't know if this child is adopted or fostered or if he's a child from trauma, he? Do you know that? We don't have that detail, no, no. but on that site, we know that the majority of parents are carvers children from trauma and there's definitely obviously some neurodiversity from wherever. I think the reaction of the family member is absolutely what we've been talking about. That desire to minimise, you know, our children are very complex and they require a lot of thinking about and a lot of skilled intervention and a lot of people simply are not able to and don't want, especially extended family. busy people so they will minimize the actual what's going on, the actions and in order to solve it, all you need to do is, there's a lot of that, all you need to do, oh just do so and so. We have people say, don't we, oh send them back or tell them, sit them down and talk to them about their behavior. Now I think one of the things that frustrates me a lot is when people, try to insinuate that our children are manipulative and that crying and being distressed is manipulation. Now I'm not saying that no children are ever manipulative, but the point is that's not their intention. In order to be manipulative, we can be manipulated as caring adults, but that's not the child's intention. The child is in survival mode, do you think? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that's, even if we did go as far as calling it manipulation, it's like, actually to manipulate someone else so that I survive, so that I get to have this secure attachment that I absolutely desperately need for my own survival, well, okay, that's fine. So I'll manipulate, I'll manipulate everyone around me because I need to live. Like that's just seems totally logical. And I think it's, that response from parents, people in education, sometimes social workers, depending on the world that you're in, is so frustrating because actually you are trying very hard to understand the child and the behavior that is in front of you that is really complex. Quite often, you will be at the very least scratching around the surface of getting things right. You will be getting there, but that's still really tough to then be told by other people who have never done it before that you're getting it wrong and actually... you're a pushover and you just need to take a harder line. And all of these things that we now know will just make life much, much harder for that child and much harder for that family, potentially leading to breakdowns and children not being able to stay where they are and all of those really extreme outcomes. It's just so infuriating to kind of, I think that was when I read it, that bit of family member laughed and said, I'm just being played. That was the bit that really hit me. It wasn't there because the other stuff I thought well actually yeah an eight-year-old that's experienced early life trauma crying a lot probably an appropriate response Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also I did notice that you said about homework, you know, the child has issues around homework. And of course, you know, as therapeutic parents, I always say we don't do homework because when you do homework, you are bringing school into home and school is a very difficult place for our children. I'm not saying that we undermine it, we sabotage it. You've got a child who wants to do homework and looks forward to it. I've never met one to be honest, but you know, then obviously we're going to allow that to happen. But I learnt really early on that my children couldn't cope with the transition of me changing from mum to teacher. And I don't care how good my children are at their timetables. If they can't make relationships, if they can't grow up to be parents themselves and to have empathy and meet their child's needs, they can't really contribute to anything else. So all of the stuff we're doing, the therapeutic parenting, the creating attachments, That's much more important than schoolwork. So if my children had to do homework, they'd stay at school and do an after school homework club, because then you're keeping homework at school, which is where it belongs. But it sounds to me like this little eight year old needs a lot of unpacking, needs a lot of reassurance and probably a lot of parental presence because that's what our children miss, isn't it? When they're young, they they're often been left alone for long periods of time. Yeah, yeah. I was, because I was thinking that bit about, because they give homework as an example and then I'm tidying their room. So I find that definitely with my three, they actually don't have an issue with tidying their room. They have an issue with being in their room on their own. They don't like being up there where they're away from everyone else. So if I go and really I'm not helping that much, but I'm just there, I'm just present. They will stay in their room and they will do what they need to do. They're quite happy to do that. So as you say, it's about kind of like know, digging a little bit. I mean, I definitely think with homework, we've made that mistake. You know, my idea when the kids arrive was, yeah, okay, I'll just, you know, I'll provide a, you know, a nice warm home and a roof over their head. And so they'll go into school and they'll get A's and B's. Of course they will. You know, I sort of changed my attitude on that and really shifted to thinking, as you said, you know, actually I say to my kids, you have a lifetime to get whatever education you want. Right now you need to be a child. and that's what we need to focus on. And I think I can think of one or two occasions where for whatever reason something had happened at home or bad morning or whatever it was and the kid then goes into school, you know, know you're getting a phone call from school. My argument then in the future will be, well, look, that's what they're like when they come in when they aren't safe and calm. If you want me to deliver them like that every morning, then that's absolutely fine. But actually, I'm focusing on doing my job, which is delivering them to you in the morning, feeling happy, knowing that they're safe where they live, all of those other things. That's the only thing that's gonna give them any chance to learn. Yeah, it definitely is. I think that, you know, I said to my children's school very early on really, know, school stays at school, home stays at home. Schools are quite good at trying to get us to put in consequences at home for stuff that they did at school. And sometimes, you know, our children have misbehaved and sometimes they haven't. Sometimes the schools got it wrong and they've set the children up to fail. So I always say, you know, your child needs one person in their corner and that's got to be you. So when the school found out and said, you your daughter's done XYZ and you need to talk to her about it. I said, do you know what? I'm not going to do that because this happened at school with you. You were there, you know, I'm going to create space for her to talk to me, but I'm there to offer her support. If the school put in a detention, wouldn't undermine it. I wouldn't say don't go. But what I would say is, unfortunately, yeah, you're supposed to do detention today, but don't worry, when you get home, I'll have a little treat for you. It's about trying to work with that. I didn't expect the headmaster to come round to our house and check my children are tied to their bedrooms. So at the same way, I'm not going to be following through consequences for school. I think that's a very important distinction for our children. Yeah, and I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because actually when you think about like a one day exclusion or isolation, you spend the day at home, that really mostly inconvenience, the inconvenience is the parent. And so the idea is, I suppose, that the parent gets really annoyed and says, you need to sort out your behavior because now I have to take a day off work or whatever. And actually the way that we used to do it was to kind of say, look, we need to have a chat about what's happened because, you know, if you've hurt someone or you've done something you shouldn't, then let's understand why. But that day where you're going to be at home, let's go out for the day. You know, let's do, you know, let's, you know, I can see that what you need right now is some time with me. So let's connect, you know, and we know that our kids, if they know that the relationship with their primary caregiver is okay, that's the foundation and everything else can kind of build from there. Okay. All right, I'd quite happily talk about this for another half hour or so, but yeah, if we wrap that up and yeah, that was great. Thank you, Sarah. Thanks very much. Thank you.