Episode S7E03: Ringleaders: Men Leading in Christian Marriage.

FOUR PRINCIPLES TO IMPROVE A MARRIAGE

In this episode of the Finishing Well Podcast, Hal Habecker and Ken Wilgus discuss the concept of "ringleaders," a framework for Christian men to reflect on and improve their marriages. Ken introduces the four principles: 

I belong to Jesus the Creator of my marriage.

Jesus has joined me to my wife as one flesh.

To love my wife is to love myself - to serve my wife is to serve myself.

I am to my wife as Jesus is to me.

They emphasize the importance of grounding marriage in Jesus and understanding the deep unity and oneness within a marriage. The conversation highlights the need for men to love and serve their wives as Jesus loves them, reflecting on the theological and practical implications of these principles.

Transcript

Narrator: 0:02

Steve today on the finishing well. Podcast,

Ken Wilgus: 0:06

Jesus has joined me to my wife as one flesh, therefore to love my wife is to love myself.

Narrator: 0:14

Welcome to the finishing well. Podcast, where we encourage believers of every age to find meaningful ways to impact their world for the kingdom of God, our mission is to prepare and encourage every person to live well and to finish well. We pray this podcast will be a source of strength and encouragement as we seek to glorify Christ as we engage him in our aging years. Now here's your host for finishing well. Hal habecker,

Dr Hal Habecker: 0:40

welcome to our finish a well ministry podcast listenership. We love doing these something to help us think, well, grow well, be on board with what God is doing in our lives. And today, I want to talk about marriage. Not that I'm an expert, but I have an expert across the table from me, Ken wilgis, who you've heard before, talking about parenting and grandparenting. He's a close friend. Welcome Ken to our podcast again. Thanks, Hal. I'm glad to be here. It's great having you been a great friend, but I want to talk about you're a counselor. You visit with people. But I don't want to talk about counseling today. This is not a counseling session. This is good for men women. You know Vicki and I've been married 50 years. You've been married you and Sally 4045,

Ken Wilgus: 1:33

do you should? Do you know the guy that did my premarital counsel? Have no idea who that would be, Hal habecker. And I think my wife and I can both attest that it was a successful premarital counseling. It's worked out.

Dr Hal Habecker: 1:46

I love it, but you have developed a way of thinking about marriage that I have never heard anywhere else. It's a deal called ringleaders. Before we get into this, just talk about ringleaders, how it emerged in your mind and life and and what

Ken Wilgus: 2:05

it is so years ago now, it's got to be more than 15 years ago. I was doing a marriage seminar at my church, and I remember saying, you know, what would be great is if we could get a group of married Christian men to meet and just talk about marriage. Because, you know, women actually not as much as they used to, but women still get together, they have relationships, they talk about things that are important, their marriages, and men don't, and white men definitely don't. There's difference in African American community to some degree, but, and I just said that offhand, and there was a minister there, a friend of mine, Jeff Ron, who wanted to schedule lunch. A few weeks later, he said, I want to talk about that thing you said about men talking about Christian marriage. And so it kind of developed from there.

Dr Hal Habecker: 2:55

Well, you and I were friends. We've been friends for 45 plus years, right? So I remember the evolution of your thinking. We talked a lot about it, and we actually did two sessions in our church, that's right, with men on ringleaders who

Ken Wilgus: 3:10

remembered that years later, which is really surprising and kind of important, you know, because we go to lots of stuff, but I've heard from men that actually have said that really made a huge difference to them in terms of really responding in their marriage.

Dr Hal Habecker: 3:28

Well, we did it two different sessions, right? And I would say every man who took that in our study, in fact, you came to one of them for one or two sessions. You know, they're they're indelible. They're indelible in my mind. And these men, they still talk

Ken Wilgus: 3:43

about them. That's a spirit thing for sure, you know. So I think about that as

Dr Hal Habecker: 3:47

I age. I mean, for many of us, spouses may be gone, you can't work in your marriage, but if you're there, you can still you can. I think God wants to work at continuing to develop us as we age, personally, maritally, family in every area of our lives.

Ken Wilgus: 4:05

Well, I actually believe, you know, Jesus first miracle was at a wedding, yes, and he has this odd choice to what they the moral of that story, the ending is that at this wedding, the best wine was served last and there's so many layers of that. But the one, one thing I've often thought about is that our marriage can and should be that same way, that there's some good reasons why the latter part of marriage, decades into marriage, you know, you 50, me, 45 years that can actually bring out the better wine, the real enjoyment that might not have been available to us when we were young and more naive.

Dr Hal Habecker: 4:49

And how many of us, as we age, would say our marriage is better now than it's ever been before? I think of Robert Browning, the poem that I use grow old with me in my marriage. Alan. Or right, the best is yet to be scripturally, the joy of Jesus ought to be fleshed out more in our lives as we go and that should be the case in marriage as well. I think,

Ken Wilgus: 5:10

I think the only reason I didn't nod heavily is that, because of what I do as a psychologist, I know a lot of people that are married for a long time, and they're not having the greatest time, and to me, it's they're not really giving into the wisdom that's right there in front of them. So it's not always a piece of cake, but it could be a lot better if you really know know how to pray and think about

Dr Hal Habecker: 5:30

it well. And my prayer in this podcast, and we may do a further podcast out of this. I'm not sure how this all go, but you know, the four principles you have are things that resonate in my mind and my heart. And let me just introduce this by mentioning them briefly. Okay, how about all four of them? Sure? Sure. Sure. This all is ringleaders. The first one is. Number one, I belong to Jesus, the creator of my marriage. Number two, Jesus has joined me to my wife as one flesh. Number three, to love my wife is to love myself. To serve my wife is to serve myself. And finally, I am to my wife as Jesus is to me. I just think these are four radically unique biblical concepts. They're not psychological concepts. They have nothing to do with personalities or it's something at a wedding, the two are now one flesh. It's a mystery about marriage that I don't think we dwell enough on, but enough of that. I want to work on these four principles, and I want you to explain them. I may make a comment or two, but let's see how it goes. So the first one is, I belong to Jesus, the creator of my marriage. Why that one? And what are you thinking?

Ken Wilgus: 6:54

So these are kind of, I just don't do well with lists of lots of things. And I really prayed about and thought about what I'd seen both scripturally, but in couples, marriage, and what are the basics that, in this case, a husband really needs to know a Christian husband, what's the really basic stuff? And the very first step that, if you're not aware of that first, it's almost like signposts in the midst of what can feel like a wilderness. I mean, in my marriage, everyone knows I'm married way over my head and and I just it's been great, and it's also been just so weird for me. I don't know why she's saying this. I feel like I can't seem to connect with her all that stuff. It's almost like signposts in the desert that say, Okay, here's what I know. And you remember, in the ringleaders class, we would start each class with these four things, yes, and the first thing that is important to know for a Christian man is in not I think I married my mother or I think I'm, you know, I'm having a bad attachment style, that this is not basic. What's basic is, do you belong to Jesus? There's a lot of ways that Christian men might say, Well, I have been saved. These are not wrong things. But any Christian should know and respond to do you do you mean that you belong to Jesus, Christ, God's Son, and we all yes, and that is the basic relationship that we have with Jesus. And knowing that, that is who created this marriage. I belong to him, and he put me here. You know, people have lots of different stories. Sometimes you forget the real story of how you got together. Well, you know, they'll say to me, Well, Dr Lewis, we were both codependent, and like, whoa, wait, God knew the moment that you were married, when you were born, you would marry this person, even if it's not your first marriage. This is God's will. Jesus has sort of gotten you into this, and he created this marriage. And so that first step is the basic of really, kind of grounding yourself in the times that and these four principles have become kind of a little, I don't know, mental pill that you kind of use it to for me to be sane when I've been out in the garage thinking this is ridiculous, I can't believe she's and I will, through gritted Teeth, start with I know I belong to Jesus, and he created this marriage, and you have joined me as one flesh. So that first step is critical, because we, if you don't really ground your marriage in not like other marriages, Christian marriages, it is Jesus who you are unified to, and he is the one that created this thing and has put you in this thing with your spouse.

Dr Hal Habecker: 9:46

And I think of the differences of our spouses. And why did she say that? Oh, right. And I get on to all these other things, rather than basic theology, i. Long to Jesus who created my marriage.

Ken Wilgus: 10:02

That's right. And I worry that my field has a bad habit. We're well meaning, but we have a bad habit of talking about all these other things, your love language, your attachment style, your trauma history, all these things that not intending to but if you're not careful, you'll think, Well, those are the important things to really think about. And above all, as a psychologist, I want to go, no, no, no, no, nothing that we know replaces the foundation that Christians can and should know that this thing you're struggling with, this is Jesus' fault. Jesus is not going well. I didn't know you're going to marry her. He's low. And, yeah, I know I heard her. I love I heard what she said. And yeah, I knew that was coming. Now get in there and be me. But again, it starts with recognizing the foundation, not that I owe Jesus a bunch and he saved me. I belong to Him. He is intimately the bridegroom for all of us, and this marriage is his, and where today's what feels like a glitch is not a glitch. He is right there walking with me in this moment. Now.

Dr Hal Habecker: 11:15

He would want our wives to understand the same thing I would want our

Ken Wilgus: 11:20

wives, I know, but I

Dr Hal Habecker: 11:21

think that's important, although this isn't, this is ringleaders. It starts with, I think the husband,

Ken Wilgus: 11:27

we prayed about it a lot. It really does. I know this. A lot of psychotherapy taught me this. I wasn't taught this in school. Couples came and would husbands would say the same kind of struggle, and wives would say the same struggle that other wives have. It's not as individually different as you think, and it absolutely for husbands, and we prayed about it. You remember that, would the Lord have us do the same thing for wives and maybe, but you know, the primary that I've known through with psychotherapy is that if there's only one person in a marriage that's committed to working on it, and the other one won't. If it's the husband, there's a decent chance that something can happen. I've got a lot of wives. Women are very faithful in things, and they really want to work on their marriage, but if he won't come, it is a whole different dynamic. So a husband knowing this and seeking to love his wife is a hugely different foundation, and you can make a huge difference.

Dr Hal Habecker: 12:26

Yeah, it's fundamental in marriage. I mean, I perform how many weddings over my lifetime, and it's a mystery. The two become one. There's a miracle there.

Ken Wilgus: 12:35

Well, that's the other part. Yeah, that's the second one. He has joined me to my wife as one flesh. And you know, that's Matthew 19 other passage where Jesus is that he's not asked about marriage, he's asked about divorce, and he flips the whole script with Do you not remember that at the beginning? It was not so they were asking him about the law, and he responded, in creation that to be a man and woman in loving union is human. It's not a religious thing. It's not even just a Christian. It's the human pattern that, in the deepest of mysteries, begins to reflect God in us, because God is one and yet is three in one. It's something about that. It's so fundamental that it's critical to know that if Jesus has created the marriage, then there's not a huge variation in how do I do this? He has joined you to her, or joined you together as one flesh, which, as it turns out, is pretty tricky business. The intimacy of marriage is hard to handle, and I don't think people teach us that well.

Dr Hal Habecker: 13:45

I think in all of life, we're reminded again as to the mystery of God. Why did this happen? Why did this happen? Why does he work this way? Why did this tragedy happen? Who? What's His Holiness mean in this but fundamentally, Jesus has joined me to my wife as one flesh, and we don't dwell in the Godhead enough. Yes. I mean, that's literally what it's all about. It's our theology

Ken Wilgus: 14:11

well, and it took 1000s of years to unfold that miracle from the point of God actually saying it's not good that this human is alone. By the way, he was not lonely. You're not lonely when you're in unbroken fellowship with God. You can just see the man going, it's not good. Why is it not good? And God said, Let me show you. And he walks around going, it's what you need. Is not any of these other creatures. And he puts him to sleep, and divides that man into two humans, a male and female human, and says, Now that basically, that looks like me. That's why it was good. And the man knew just what to say his first words of the declaration of the deepest truth. She is me. This is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. He's lonely then, because he wakes up and half of them is gone. You know, all of us, men can remember that. I was a pretty happy 10 year old, but around 1314 I woke up, and I don't know what, but something was missing, and I think it was over there on the side of the gym where the girls are. And you just have that feeling that there's a thing missing until she arrives. And we all have different stories, but I know my part of that bone, of my bone and flesh and my flesh, and that that has been my wife. I mean, it's absolutely that joining,

Dr Hal Habecker: 15:29

but then we face the differences that we have as persons, and we don't jump first in the theology.

Ken Wilgus: 15:37

No, I didn't, because, listen, Hal, nobody knew more about everything in the world than a psychology grad student when you were being so kind as to counsel us, I used to know everything. And then I realized, wait a minute, this, this, you know, my plan was that we would be super compatible. I thought that I was marrying this gorgeous woman that was just like me inside, that was my thought. And she's needed a little bit of work. We have to talk through some stuff. These are the years that she calls the years of cross examination, which I think was mean, but I see what she means. I was trying to get back to her being what she, in my eyes, should be, which is like me. Never recognize the deep theology of No, no, that is me over there. So what she desires, what she fears, how she sees things, is now the other eye of me looking. It's my own flesh. Remember, you go to the dentist and they deaden part of your face, and you ever reach up and squeeze on you can almost hurt yourself because you can't feel your own flesh. Well, that's kind of the way sin has operated on our lives, that I've been separated from viewing the fullness of three dimension that me and my wife both living life can be when we're really functioning, and it just devolves into this myopic she's not doing it right, because she's not thinking like me. Instead of expanding me into one of us really wants to be on time, the other is really careful to make sure we have everything that we need. We're both. That's what we are. But that's an easy one. I spent years thinking, hurry up, you're late. You know, it's like she's wrong. No, she and they're rushing around, which, I don't do that anymore. I go in and help get stuff together, because we're in there. It's me, it's

Dr Hal Habecker: 17:33

both of us. It's not the other person that's creating the problem.

Ken Wilgus: 17:36

Well, it feels that way, and that's what sin does. That's exactly what sin does? You know, closes off your view.

Dr Hal Habecker: 17:43

This is theology. 101, yes, I belong to Jesus, the creator of my marriage.

Ken Wilgus: 17:49

Jesus has joined me to my wife as one flesh, and we always said, and when we'd go through it, therefore to love my wife is to love myself. You know, it's so funny how men can really, I can feel so sacrificial when I'm serving my wife. It's me, and that's the part I think a lot of people listening to this. I think one of the advantages of if you've been married a long time, if you're older, you really know, you know, I've said, I think, on here before, half of wisdom is just getting tired. I had all these plans and ideas and whatever, and half of that stuff was just silly, and so part of my wisdom is I don't go down that road anymore. I never think about I'm going to react like this, and that way my wife will learn I used to. It's embarrassing how much I probably was thinking that, but I'm too tired of that. Doesn't work, and that's not what happens. Instead, I know what I think any husband, if you're just honest, you're not okay. If she's not okay, being kind to her, giving up your own whatever, because for her, that's just giving into the reality that you are joined to her, you cannot sleep next to the cold truth of I was right. It's not pleasant. No man likes it, and it really is admitting that I need to love her and serve her for me, for she is me.

Dr Hal Habecker: 19:18

You know, it's just mind boggling to think of the simplicity of what we're saying in the complexity of all the marriage issues

Ken Wilgus: 19:27

that we I think that's right, and I'm glad you said that, because I think that's the important thing, is that this is both scripture. You know, there tends to be a separation between a Bible study that everyone goes away going, Yeah, that's that's true. And then the other which is a kind of psychology lecture about how, for example, wives, all wives listening to this. If I were to summarize where she has struggled in her marriage, and I use the word alone, and she takes a minute to think about it, she will know what I'm. Mean, wives taught me that summarize. Dr Lewis, we were close, and then after our second child was born, we went through this, and then we had this financial thing, and whatever, and whatever her story is, and she's much better at telling the story than he is usually. And then you say, this has left you feeling what it is astonishing how often the summary is alone, invisible, unimportant, unloved, essentially, is the deepest pain that wives feel. And I didn't get that from school. And that's not only scriptural. I saw it over and over and over again. So when Jesus the Holy Spirit says a husband, love your wife as your own flesh. I see how that is loving her not not be a good guy. Talk to a guy just the other day. He's always a good guy with his wife. I go to work, I take care of things and whatever that's that's good, but that's not as your own flesh, an intimate kind of, Hey, did you want the extra cream? Are you still you just want your coffee? Like this? Got it like, know her help her to not feel like she's alone. Is scriptural, but it's also there. It's the same thing in my office. When you try to get a husband to say, what is he struggling with? And we're not great at it. Men are like, I don't know. I'm just here because she told me to, but then you start asking, and you'll get energy around it sounds like you're saying you're not perfect, but you have made efforts. You really have worked at this, and I'm not sure that you feel she appreciates or respects what you've been and trying to do here. And I'm telling you, a husband will light up on that, like, yeah, the idea that, well, I want to be intimately known, just like my wife. That's a psychology type guy who's trying to force himself into a role. I'm that guy. I'm all psychology, whatever. But I'm telling you, I want my wife to respect me. I want to feel appreciated. That's the insecurities that marriage brings out, and I'm not that way with anybody else. I've been joined to this woman. I'm kind of loony with her. She and I had attention last night that was so dumb that this morning, she didn't remember well I did because of her. I'm so intimate with her that these patterns aren't really that visible until you're joined to her, joined to him, and then that insecurity is more available, and it makes more sense as to what Scripture tells us in how to meet each other's need.

Dr Hal Habecker: 22:31

So let me delve into this just a further and then we got to go into the fourth point. Sure have to, but I will. Why is it we don't focus more energy on unity and oneness. I mean, what marriage does? It brings us face to face with each other, and we see each other's individualities and hurts and all those kinds of things, and that seems to get more attention than what we work on in Unity. So to love my wife is to love myself. To serve my wife is to serve me. All these principles are focused on the oneness and how to identify with the other person or with God who created this oneness.

Ken Wilgus: 23:10

Well, it really is a movement from the individual, and we live in the age of the individual, to that, that space in between you and your spouse, that is, you don't even, I don't think Scripture says you have to create a oneness. It's really more that says it is there you have been made one. Here's how you respond. It's like in a three legged race. Here's how you win a three legged race. Not you should stay real close to each other. You're joined. You can feel it, but you can usually knock each other over if you're not paying attention to that unity, and we don't really teach or even think about that liminal space in between. And what is the nature of that? It is a deep, deep unity, and it is such a unity that brings up the insecurities that sin has really opened up men, all men worry that they are a failure, that they will be a complete ruin at their own hands. And all women worry that they're deeply alone and unattractive, not really worthy of being loved. You don't feel that. Mo I mean, I'm a normal guy, you know me, except when I'm with her. I mean, it's so deep and so intense that it's really about learning how to do that. And the only one that can really teach that to us is Jesus, who teaches us that, here's the part no one knew, that Division of Human into a male and female. Now you're one, could become God, and us could become Christ, and His Church that's just beyond, it is beyond the beyond, and that's what gets to the fourth is recognizing and taking the lid off the sky and seeing that it's clear in Scripture that how. You are with each other reflects how Jesus is to you. So I may say that I know I am saved through the grace and the deep love of Jesus Christ, but then if I get up from my knees in prayer and turn and just, you know, point out and nitpick at everything my wife has done. God has the right to ask, how forgiven Do you know, how loved you miss in this it's exactly right, and I can do it. But I've felt that I've been married long enough I can do that. I can finish a prayer. And knowing God, well, it's hard when you really know his presence, it can and should cast that glow elsewhere. But I'm not going to kid you. I know I've been I can come away from church and immediately remember that thing that my wife said when we were heading to church, and have no compassion, because there's a way to live through what we'd call Christian marriage, where the presence of Christ in my life makes no difference in this interaction. And that's that's absurd, but it's common. So why do we do that? What? Man, I don't know. You're the you're the pastor. I don't know how that is that I can spend so much of my life. I can turn any spiritual principle into a me thing, and just forget the god part, whether it's I want you to say that again, I can turn any spiritual tradition, any spiritual teaching, and make it about me. Yeah, that's horrific that we could do that. And marriages and so the knowing the last one I am to my wife is Jesus is to me, reflects both that you'll see how you are with Jesus, in how you deal with your wife. We've all known Christian men who actually claimed out loud that, oh yeah, I'm a quote strong Christian man, or my favorite godly man, and they are horrible to their wife. And you're like, you know that those two cannot go together if those who do not love others do not know God's love, but it's also the direction I hate when I would really get convicted of a thing and then decide, all right, now I'm going to re strengthen myself and be kinder and more patient. I will be to my wife as I let Jesus be to me. I have to depend on his continual love, his continual reminding that, yes, I was there yesterday when you said that thing and you thought that thing, and I do completely forgive you. Let's move on and feel that freedom. And that's the only way that I can really be kind and loving to my wife. One comment

Dr Hal Habecker: 27:43

here, I like the way you phrase this. I am to my wife as Jesus is to me, not starting reverse. I know what Jesus does to me, and I help me do it my wife, right? I mean, the proof is in the pudding. That's right. That's what the scripture would say. You really love if you do this, yeah. So if you serve your wife, then you'll really understand how much I love and accept you

Ken Wilgus: 28:03

Yes, yes. And I've, you know, I've experienced that, and the few times that I've really, you know, I recommend to husbands that, you know, complain to Jesus about this wife of yours. And I can remember sitting in the car in a parking lot and saying, I must have just hung up. The worst is when I think I've tried to be sweet and she misread me, or whatever. I feel so righteously indignant, you know? And I remember hanging up and saying out loud to Jesus, what do you want me to do with her? She doesn't she doesn't appreciate what I do. She doesn't seem to get the things I'm doing. She doesn't even see what I do for her. And how it was weird. I've told you the story before. It was like a mirror was right above my head where I could really hear Jesus in the sweetest way possible, telling me that, oh yeah, I know. I know what it's like to be a husband who is not appreciated, not loved, who doesn't not trust it. And he was talking to me, but kindly, but it was the weirdest reflection of what I feel in the struggle with my marriage, is a little bit of what we put Christ through all the

Dr Hal Habecker: 29:11

time, and that should shake us to our core in some way, well

Ken Wilgus: 29:15

or more regularly, for me, is I hope to be shaken. I need to be shaken about every hour like it, you know, it just doesn't that. Hate that. But you're right. You know the idea of, I got this insight back in 1970 whatever, not it. I got stuff listening to Aw, toes are on the way over here. I'm just, I have to be I'm weak. I just have to kind of stay with him all the time. And then that reality, yeah, it does shake me to my core. It is much easier now, my wife will tell you, it's not great, but it's better than it used to be that it is harder for me to spend time in prayer and not to get up with usually, it's almost like a laugh. It's like a joke, like, by the way, the thing I was bothered by yesterday and. So sorry. That's so dumb, because the perspective has shifted. I see that this doesn't matter. And this wife of mine that doesn't see things the way I do, which used to be a crisis for me, it's actually pretty great. She has brought in things into my life I never would have known, and has expanded me when I'm not panicking that she's doing it wrong or thinking wrong, I've been able to calm down and just be tired enough to see this is great. She's She's great. I wouldn't do it that way, but it's pretty cool the way she does it.

Dr Hal Habecker: 30:36

So let me reflect on what we're doing time wise. We've been at this for about 30 minutes here. What would you think if we took a break here? And by the way, I think we ought to re listen to this podcast to get it again. It's fundamental, I think. But could we come back in a second podcast, and could we talk some more about particulars that we might do as husbands and or in our marriage on each of these four points.

Ken Wilgus: 31:03

Yeah, that would be learned. I can't believe it. Sorry, yeah.

Dr Hal Habecker: 31:06

Well, thanks, Ken. I love having you here. And we'll sign off and we'll pick it up in just another minute. Thanks, God bless

Narrator: 31:15

you've been listening to the finishing well podcast. Let's keep pursuing Jesus together and encourage each other to follow him in our aging years. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts, or you can find us at finishing well ministries.org/podcast, our vision is to change the way we think about our aging Season of Life, equipping you to actively pursue God's calling in your life, may the Lord bless and encourage you, and we'll see you next time on the finishing well podcast. You.