A Deep Insight Into A Musical Barrister Who Has A Love Of Family - Enzo Belperio: EP 6

A Deep Insight Into A Musical Barrister Who Has A Love Of Family - Enzo Belperio

The Musical Barrister 🎵🎶

Enzo Belperio is a barrister specialising in:

👉 commercial dispute resolution with a particular emphasis on insolvency, wills and estates litigation, trade practices, corporate governance, building and construction, franchising and general contractual disputes.

An engaging conversation around failure, lessons learned, biggest challenges and a bit of fun along the way!

Kristian has a most engaging conversation with Enzo and I'm sure you'll enjoy it too!

Enzo loves to read, "How the Mind Works" and "Rationality" by Steven Pinker
https://stevenpinker.com/


To connect with Enzo you can find him here on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/enzo-belperio-4b860737/

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Transcript

0:12

Hello, today I have in Zobo perio from bad chambers joining us on The Business Growth Mindset podcast. Enzo is a barrister at bar chambers specializing mostly in commercial disputes but also other areas. He's the treasurer of the South Australian Bar Association and treasurer of the icepack to foundation charity. Get comfortable and listen up because today, you will learn about commitment, what it takes to become the youngest barrister at bar chambers and how to build a powerful circle of trust. Welcome to another episode of the Business Growth Mindset Podcast Series Three. I'm your host, Kristen Wolsey, and I'm incredibly excited to welcome our guest and my friend, Enzo bill. Perrier on the show tonight. Enzo, welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Thank you, Christian. Thanks very much. Oh, look, I know for our listeners out there, we've been having a little banter. already pre episode, everyone knows that I have a little banter with everybody. The great thing about Enzo is that I don't actually ever have to get him warmed up. Because in a minute, you're gonna find out beyond the introduction you would have heard at the beginning. You're going to hear from him and enter and I'd go back a very long time, don't we? Enzo? Yeah. I was thinking about this. Oh, I didn't want to cut off the intro. Sorry. No, no, please go. Oh, no, I was just thinking about it. Actually. It's a think cuz you're technically I think you're cousins with my cousins. And, and so I was thinking I've known you as long as I can remember, I was thinking when did I first met you. But it might have literally been forever in the sense that I can't remember a time not knowing you. And, and then I have but my first job when I go into this now. My first, my first very vivid memory of you was I was in year nine. And you were no longer or we were never at school at the same time, because you're older than me. But I was a nine and in the same house that you'd been in and you came and gave a speech at our house dinner. And and then yeah, I just remember that being like quite quite memorable, because you've just had all these things that you've done since school and it was just really, really interesting. I did. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. No, no, I actually remember that because I got invited back to speak at the House dinner. Because an attorney had left school. At that point was it wasn't a long time. It was five years. Yep. And I already had a pretty illustrious career between sport and, and, and working all over the world. Yeah, I remember it was Tim, you hit rock was a housemaster there. Yeah. Yeah. And Tim Raymond, he said, Look, I'd love for you to come back. And I was really, like, That's so awesome. And, and it was, it was great. It was great to see you again after all those years because I was I'd been away but yes, you're right. My first experience of meeting you was in diapers. You were the one wearing diapers. So let's say this made that very clear, wasn't me. So now now you're blessed with with a beautiful little girl. And you've just gone through that experience of what rather than me talk because we could we could do this for a long time. What I'd like for you to do Enzo, is just share with our listeners, right? Because obviously I know, but share with our listeners, where you have come from and where you are today. And I think that that's really, really important to just set the scene for this conversation today. Yeah, okay. The so where I am today is I'm 38 have a wife and daughter who I love very much my daughter, Penny is four. And my wife Lisa is pregnant and due in July for our second one. Congratulations. Thank you and we don't know what it is yet. So it actually will be exciting and my daughter's super excited about that really wants to be big sister. So that's all that's all happening and and then work wise I'm a barrister. I specialize mostly in commercial litigation, but also do crime and wills and estates litigation and other other areas. So it's a reasonably broad broad area of work and it's become broader as I've progressed. I wherever I come from, I don't know half half I bet how far back I'm meant to go but you know my as far back as you want grandparents came here in the 50s from a little mountain in Italy. And my dad was four when he came over my mum was born here, but their parents only just moved over. I, yeah, my mum was a teacher, my dad was in business. I've studied law and do the corporate finance degree as well. I've worked in law for my career. And my first job was with a judge in the Supreme Court for two years. So set, really sat with him in court and watched court and help helped him with whatever he needed help with. And that was incredibly good experience. He was a great mentor, and still is. And also just learned a lot from doing that. I then worked as a solicitor for seven years in two different firms doing commercial litigation. And I've been at the bar, I've been a barrister for six, six and a half years. And as I say, mostly, I mean, when I went to the bar, six years ago, my experience was as a commercial solicitors, that's where I started. But over time I've taken on other areas slowly and just slowly step by step. So I'll only take on something if I think obviously, if I think I can do it well, but I've been generally feel like if you're taking on something that's just one step outside your comfort zone, you'll be able to do it. Not Not very many steps. But over time, you know, that ends up growing a bit. So yeah, that's yeah, so that's, that's a little bit about me, I suppose. I mean, you're, it's amazing how humble you are. So I'm now going to drop you. In. So you finished with with honors? First Class honors at Adelaide University, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, I remember correctly. You, you also got a scholarship. And so for those of you who don't know, I used to be an adjunct professor at Adelaide union. I was the entrepreneur in residence there. And so I kind of know who's maneuvered through that university at some point. Even though different times, but you work in both chambers, right. And there's some formidable people a bar chamber, there's a lot of SES and two C's. Yeah, I'm very lucky. I'm very lucky to have really good people. Really good mentors around you, and, and what I really like, and I think this is a really good example of the song achievers, right. And I see you as one of those songs of Jesus, why wanted to interview you? Because a lot of the time people think that I hang around with a lot of really loud, people like me. And there's only room for one and there is really, and and then, you know, when people realize that I know so many other amazing people. They don't count on me. But these are all quiet. Listen, they're the ones you got to watch out. And enjoy. You're very humble. Your father is a well respected businessman as well. Quite an entrepreneur in his own right. And, you know, I think for him, it was always very proud that he became a lawyer, because he probably thought, well, now I get free advice. I'm not sure you've been helpful in that pay steady pace study law as well. So a lot. Yeah. He would have did more later, though, didn't mean much later. Or Not much. Not much later, but he did it. He's like an early 20s. I think so. Yeah. And then and then went into business and said, Yeah, yeah. So you know, and, and they're still and he's still going strong. So you know, that's quite amazing. Your grandparents were, you know, humble farmers who were in business. And I think that, you know, it just demonstrates the humility that you carry. But you know, you're also a very young barrister. I mean, were you one of the youngest barristers at bar chains? Or when I joined? Yeah, I was. Sorry, when you joined you would have been the youngest. Yeah, yeah. But there's other Yeah, but not I mean, it's not. I was 32 when I joined but that's yeah, not unheard of there. Right. Yeah. So yeah, so not unheard of when you want to be humble. Like it was me I'd be saying yeah, I was a Christian I am I listened I've I've I've listened to your other podcasts because I because I enjoy them and so so I was kind of ready for yeah for you know, to you you to be very flattering and really pumped me up a bit. So I've been kind of you know, yeah, we're just not something I do deal with that well, but I've been I've knew it was coming so well. I can tell because your color of your skin red. And if any of you missed that, Enzo, he's got the most unique laugh right. And I Growing up my whole life because my cousin's right also have the same laugh. And it is fantastic because it always puts a smile on my face because it's pure joy. I mean, that is pure joy. We were actually talking about this the other night. So, look, I think that you've given us a really good narrow insight. Right. But I think that's really important. But what I want to know, and what I think a lot of my listeners love hearing, and you're also a listener is, share with me, one of your biggest challenges, right, that? I mean, obviously, you deal with it, let's stay away from cases, right? Because obviously, we can't talk about those things. But what is one of the biggest challenges that you've faced? Or you're facing? Right right now and maybe talk us through? How you would how you tackling? Or how you tackled it? Or how you would tackle it? If it's in the past and present? Yeah. It could be a career challenge, it could be a life challenge. Something that you know, that's, that's kind of shaped you? Yeah, that's a big, big question. I got all day. I can't laugh. Because otherwise, this old pneumonia would just come and rip me to pieces. Yeah. So I don't want to, I might not label any of these is as big life defining challenges, but I'll just kind of go through a few few of them as they come to mind. So I think, career wise, along the way, I've had to had to make decisions about which path I was going to take, because you're always faced with choices about whether you know, whether to work at a firm, what firm to work out, whether to go out on your own, and start start your own firm, which, you know, that was, that was something at different times, I've had discussions with people that when I was a solicitor, or eventually as I did go out and become a barrister. And, you know, you can always change your mind and switch paths, but that might set you back a bit. So they are at the time, they feel at the time, like big decisions, like it feels like, it's gonna set you down one particular path and, and you're at least gonna give that a good shot for a few years. So you don't want to get that wrong, I suppose. I am. And they're hard when you're in in them. They're quite hard decisions to make. But I've kind of I worked my, after being with the judge, I worked at a firm that I enjoyed working at, but most of my work was overseas, and I was traveling a lot. And whilst the work was enjoyable, and I felt I was learning a lot and like the people I was working with, over time, I realized that that was that was going to long term was going to cause a strain on my relationship with Lisa. And also, I didn't feel it was long term going to give me the career I wanted because ultimately, we decided we wanted to live in Adelaide. And so therefore I thought I shouldn't be building a network here. And I shouldn't be building my career here where I will kind of wasn't with the work I was doing. And so So I made a decision to move somewhere else which focus on our leg work and that was really the right thing for me at that time. And then moving to the bar was filled at the time a really, for me, it felt really risky decision like I was really unsure about it. You're giving up when you're working in a firm, you've got a salary and you know, you know what you're doing you'll get into the groove, whereas you become a barrister. And the role as a barrister is you have to work for yourself you have to be a sole trader. You work in a chambers with other barristers but we're all independent sole traders. You have no set income or workflow or anything it's just up to you. So no one's you just go become a barrister, join the chambers and then if and get your work from solicitors so solicitors get their work from clients and client that wouldn't come to me directly I get approached by solicitors to get involved in their matters. So when you go the bar you know there's no certainty I mean people say oh yeah oh yeah. Oh, you know, if you go the bar, I'll give you a word. Yeah, but you got no no assurance that that will happen and As it turned out, and people said to me, you can never predict where your work is going to come from. And as it turned out, that's absolutely right. So I, I kind of keep it every January, I have a good look at what happened over the last year, because you can, as you know, you can just extract from your accounting software, all kinds of data and play around with it. And so it's quite interesting that even in my in my first year, my number one, the number one firm in terms of number of matters and revenue for my first year at the bar, I had never met them at all, before I went to the bar didn't even know them. So if I had done, if I'd done a list of who's going to give me work, I wouldn't have put them anywhere near the list because I didn't even know who they were. And, and similarly, each year each year, it just comes from different places, and quite unexpected. So about overall, I'm really happy with the with the move, but it was at the time. Yeah, it felt like something I was quite unsure about. Because you just there's no certainty. Yeah. You know, what I really love about the journey you just took us on? Is you, I think a lot of our a lot of my listeners, or our listeners are business people, right? They're entrepreneurs. And this is I did not expect you to take us on this journey. But you just demonstrated how much of a businessman you actually are. Because there is this perception that a barrister is not a business person. Right, but you've just summed that up really beautifully. For anyone listening that for you. That challenge was really like, no different to Matt, you're someone who's worked in corporate who then says, you know, I've got this really good idea, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna go find customers. And the thing is, you actually can't find a customer, the customer actually has to come to you and the customer isn't the customer. It's the firm, it's a solicitor, who says, I need to engage. Right? I got this right, like you canvassing work? Yeah, we got to build your networks. And this is a really good lesson for anyone listening to me or younger people that you might be in a career, or you might be looking to make a move from corporate to becoming an entrepreneur. You know, that's a big step. And what you've just also said to me is that any aspiring lawyers out there who want to be solicitors or barristers, solicitors, you could end up working in your in your own firm, but the likelihood is you're going to learn your trade, working for someone getting a wage, getting a retainer. But when you make that leap for you at 32, you made this leap. And you're playing in a in a relatively big pot, like it's a small pond, but some really big players. So in your in your untested at this point, really, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm assuming, well, I'm not assuming I have been involved in a lot of matters. And litigation is very different to actually sitting down writing everything and preparing a barrister. Right. So I think that that's amazing. Thank you for sharing that answer. Because I don't think a lot of people including me, I would never would have never would have actually put it in that way that it was like, Oh, wow, you actually started a business. Yeah, what do you do? It's a very sorry, and it's a small and simple business. And I sell my time to people. That's really, really it. But but having having said that, you're right, you've picked up on some of the quirks and limitations. So you're right that I'm not sure if it's just a cultural thing. Or if there's a rule about I must admit, I'm not sure if it's a rule or it's a culture, but barristers are not meant to advertise. And they're not meant to go around canvassing for work, as you've said. So and also, were subjected to the what's called the cab rank rule, which is, if we get off with a brief, we have to accept it, provided we've got time to do it. The clients willing to pay a normal rate, and it's within our area of expertise. So that's a rule it's called. Yeah, so you have to you have to accept it, provided they can pay you and you've got time and you're able to do it. And so that's because the kind of principle behind that is that we're at the bar we meant to be independent. That's why we can't form a firm at the bar you can't you you can be in a chambers which you share expenses. And it's more than that, I must say chambers does have a really collegial feel to it. And they you know, the people in my chambers help help me a lot. So it's more than just sharing expenses, but we're all independent. We can't form a firm you know, like a solicitors can and also we have to be available to everyone so solicitors can choose who they want as their clients. We we can't we may To be available to everyone, no matter no matter how personal views, views and things are, there's one exception, which is, we as officers of the court, we can't put forward an argument that we think is untenable. So if if we're asked to argue something that we think is unarguable, we have to say no, we're not not doing that. solicitor can say, yeah, now that can't. No one can. Money, okay. Just wanted to confirm. Because there is a perception that lawyers just take money just because they want to run an argument. Point, IBM, I know that there's a code of ethics, obviously, my uncle has taught me a lot around that. And there is there is these codes, but I did not know about this Cambering rule. And so that's cool. I've just learned something new. So basically, you've heard it here, you cannot be rejected by about. So if you fear rejection, there's one place where you can go, you cannot be rejected. Right? And I can see listeners going, Yeah, right. So no, look, that was amazing. And I'm really glad that you shared that witness. And so what I want to go to now, if we can, you've shared conservatively, a little bit about yourself, where you were where you've been, you know, one challenge that I think was excellently related back to, to business and to our listeners. But what should I ask that I don't know enough to ask? Oh, wow. I know, my questions have improved dramatically in the last series. I was, yeah, I've been lulled into a false sense of security, because based on the questions you've asked everyone else, I thought I kind of knew what was coming. So it's a very interesting question. Keep that in mind? Would you like would you like me to, to restate the question for you? I know what the question is, but if you recite it, are you gonna say in a different way, or just to say, you know, you know, that I might write so I might not know, if you're gonna say if you're gonna expand it or say it differently? Don't go ahead. But ya know, so I'll keep the same question. What should I ask that? I don't know, enough to ask you? Yeah. I suppose you might not. He might not know. much about what I you know, what things on I enjoy outside of work and family? I'm not, you know, okay. Great. So, what do you enjoy outside of work? So at wo fam, you're as same as same as you. I mean, family and work are the most important and kind of key key pillars of life. And I know that you and I have kind of shared that definitely share those two very close bonds, as always first, right. So I know you're a family man as I am. And that's what I think gives us our strength. Yeah, you talk a lot about that. So yeah, I'm also I've got a real love for music. So I put our system the internet, I do it to people actually see these videos, or is it already if they're watching on YouTube? No, you know that I've got some an amp and a few guitars and other things in here. And I play piano as well and spend a lot of time on my laptop doing sampling and things like that. So I spend a lot of a lot of time like every day, even though I have that much time but at night I find 20 minutes, I'll do something music related. So that's genius. You you you invest in doing really cool shit. I play FIFA soccer. Look, I like that as well. I was like Lucy always gets me. You just embrace before bedtime. And I leave I play for 30 minutes in a worldly? Yes, he's moved to Michigan, you cannot be spoken to. That's my off thing. But just it's I've got to be left alone. And then I can start to pay. Yeah, she's like, I don't get it. You get all that stimulation. I'm like, Yeah, I've got to get that last bit of winning or failing out of my system the other day so I couldn't go to sleep but I didn't know I actually didn't know that. You actually had such a strong affliction with music and so do you have a stage name now? So if you were to release some music What would you release it under? Yeah, I think at the if I if I was to do that. I think just my just my actual name. I don't think I'd go Yeah, go for And Iran, okay, yeah. Okay, I think I'm gonna have a bit of fun with this next time we read, I'm going to be something. Okay, let's come up with DJ notes. And by the way, any listeners out there who think they've got a name for Enzo, please just just let us know, hit us up in the comments wherever, whether it's on iTunes and Spotify look at they see the pigmentation of the skin color again. There you go on bright red, the lighting, right? So I think that's wonderful. And so it's also great to look at your industry, it might be hard. And so I'm not talking about customers, but failure means different things to different people. Okay. And as everybody knows, I see failure as an opportunity to do something, again, more intelligent. And you got to respect failure for what it is. But what's been your biggest failure? Right? And I use the word loosely. And I don't use failure as a negative. Okay, what's your biggest failure? And what did you learn from that experience? Yeah, I'll first comment. I'll just first kind of comment on what you said something, something I've always admired about you is the the way you've come back from, if you don't mind me saying from, you know, from public forum, you've received some, you know, really unfair negative comments in the press? And I think that would be I don't know, how are we cope with that that's a must have been a really hard thing to, to handle. So I have really admire that you, you've come through that, I must say. And I've a lot of other. Yeah, I mean, I've seen in my clients, I kind of when I'm involved in a case, subsequently, when it's really going going through a trial, you have to sort in order to run a trial, a commercial matter, you've got to really understand your clients business. And so you get really involved in, in what they're doing, what their industry is, like how they make money, because and because you can only Only through understanding all of that, can you understand why things went wrong, and why it was and what happened to them was unfair, you can't understand any of that you won't be able to explain it to a judge, if you don't kind of have a full picture of what their industry and businesses, so I kind of enjoy that. And I've seen through that, because often I'm seeing people, clients in one of the hardest times of their life for a lot of people, you know, if they have to go through a big court case, for a lot of people, it's the hardest thing they've done in business, it's, you know, something really bad has happened in their business that's led to the fact there's a court case on or, and the concept and the consequences are really bad. So, I mean, some people say I do criminal matters as well. And so there's no, I understand that in criminal matters. It's often people's liberties on the line. But I've heard some people say all in commercial, it's just money, that doesn't matter so much. It's just but it really does, as you know, I mean, for some, plenty of cases I've done, whoever loses is losing their house, you know, and that really matters. So the mental health component that a lot of people forget. Yeah, you know, we are still even though the word commercial comes to surface. We forget that we're actually talking about people. Yeah. And, and, and sometimes even the people that are writers, you would see that I mean, you know, there there are some times in the commercial world where someone has tried to do absolutely the right thing. Yep. And still fail. And it's very hard. And I think that's one of the things I think you have a lot of empathy. Obviously, no, a few barristers. And there are plenty that there's digital emotions, right? Whereas one thing that I've always found with you, and and you just summed it up beautifully. You really need to understand someone's business and also understand them to know where it went wrong. Because otherwise, how are you going to be able to explain that to a judge who doesn't know anything about? So it's really interesting, because I think that's really important. And I just want to acknowledge you. Yes, I have been through some amazing challenges. And yeah, but again, I am when I reflect on what I've been through, I've pretty much brought upon myself, even though I've been treated unfairly. And thank you for that. I do reflect back on the moments and go, You know what, I could have done things differently. Because, see, I think that's the key was growing. And that's the key with overcoming is being able to acknowledge that a failure, and Paul Edgington, who was on the last year ers is good friend of mine. He's the CEO of Reno MOFA. He summed it up really well. He said, a failure is a really expensive school fee. Right? I've never been able to get that out of my head. And I'm shaking my hands, because that's what Paul does when he's when he's when he's trying to de stress he does this exercise. It's actually quite funny. I, you've probably seen the episode, but I actually think that that's, that's where people get resilience, wrong and wrong. You know, if you don't have a go, in my opinion, you are failing, right? Whereas if you're having a go and you don't succeed, then if you've done it ethically, right, with no malice and intent, then pick yourself up, dust yourself off and go again, more intelligent. So I guess, flipping that around, then we would you say, your learning is in all of that. Yeah. So I was thinking I am. I asked spindle when you're in the in the middle of a trial. It's just all it's just chaos. And you're working day and night. And it's craziness. You're in a trial right now. Yeah, yeah. Today was the first day actually, it's probably going to might go for two or three weeks. So yeah. That long? Might do. Yeah, yeah. So you really are bogged down. Because you really can't do anything else during that period. Right? Or you can spend maybe each day can spend a couple of hours doing other things, like at night, when I'm in business. In business, yeah. How do you run your your solution? When you're in trial that whole time? Yes. I mean, it's, it's hectic. Yeah. When you're, like a trial court will sit from 10am to 4:30pm. On a court day. And so and some of those days, you know, I could be on my feet the whole time, I could be on my feet for five hours. And some of its really, really intensive, you know, particularly, if you're doing argument and you're you're being asked questions by the judge the whole time, or if you're, it's something that I quite enjoy, but is a pretty, pretty big effort to get ready for and do is I find cross examining experts, because, say, a big yellow cross examining people, well, a bit of Yeah, but I find the kind of am I really, like, I really like sitting with it, when you're cross examining expert, you have to get across their area of expertise, to at least a level where you can engage with them and understand what their opinion is on something and challenge it. So you spend time you often have your own expert on your side, you spend time with them, spend time reading the reports trying to and I kind of like that, because that you know, back at school, I like to physics and maths and haven't really done any sense. But this is one outlet for for those types of kind of activities. But But Oh yeah, so when you're in, when you're in a trial, you can be on your feet from from 10 to 430, you might have another five hours. Often people say for five hours in court, you need five hours to prepare. So that might that might be from five in the morning till 10 In the morning, or you know, and then also on top of that, people, because my the people I'm dealing directly with, like, I'm not getting emails and phone calls all day from different clients, I'm getting emails and phone calls a day from solicitors. And so they, they understand that, you know, if I'm in trial that I'm not going to be of much use to them, and they so they understand that. So that's all right. But there are still always going to be things you can't just shut off for three weeks, there are going to be things that I need to do. So you probably do need a couple of hours as well, to answer emails and do and do some things. You know, sometimes you need to settle a Statement of Claim or something because it has to be filed this week, and you've got got to do it. And then you're right. And then there's the business side of things. Now luckily, it's not not too, too labor intensive. I mean, I just record my time I charge either by the, by the hour or by the day, depending on what's happening. And I just record it in some software and then issue invoices and hope that people pay me at some stage. And yeah, so um, but yeah, it's pretty, pretty good. Yeah, it can be really, really hectic. And I think I think I was I think I was in the process of answering the learning experience or that so Even when I was a solicitor, I found that the biggest learning experiences were when you saw a matter from start to finish. Because, you know, at the start of a matter, say you might give advice to the client, and you might draft a Statement of Claim. And then if it said, Oh, that's excellent, that's the best result for the client. So you'll always want that. But your Statement of Claim and your advice, whenever tested, you never really saw if, if it was right or not. Whereas, and also, on the other hand, if you if you come in, come in late, you might not have appreciated why things were done at the start. But I found matters where in my early career matters, where I dropped the met with a client and heard their problem. And at the start, it's all, you know, you just hear it from their perspective. They've got hundreds or 1000s of documents, and it's it's chaos at the start in terms of organizing information. And then along the way, you have to make decisions about what are we going to advise them to start an action or not? And you have to make a call on that? How are we going to frame it? What kind of cause of action does this fall within? You know, what are what are actually the elements? How are we going to play that, etc. If you're doing all that at the start, and then also, two years later, you have then having a trial on that. And halfway through a trial, all these barristers are having a debate with the judge about what a particular word means and the Statement of Claim that you drafted two years ago, you know, that that happens, you know, that's the first that was when that started happening. That's the first time I kind of appreciated the consequences of everything you're doing along the way, and all the different decisions that you're making, and the advice giving the client the whole time. So how do you stay on top of that? What? That's a really good point, and clearly, for any aspiring solicitors slash barristers, that my business thing, how did you? How did you? What is your magic kind of source in in making sure that you mitigate those consequences? Right. And I mean, at the end of the day, you are a risk assessor at the same time? You know, because you mean, the amount of cases that you would have to know? Because that's what you do you refer a lot to cases, right and your audience, yeah, but I have to no one expects you to have them all memorized, etcetera, you know, you fit for a lot, almost every case, I think, new new matter that comes along, you would probably know the leading authorities, but you may not know, the specific ones that address at this exact point. So that you're always, you know, you're not expected to know all of that immediately, but be able to go and find it and build up the case. I think, you know, I tried to just keep a focus on the fundamentals of the matter, which I see broadly for every whatever matter you're doing. And ultimately, in order to win or to get at a successful outcome, you're going to need to have the court accept factual propositions as being true. And what happened, what actually happened out in the real world, what are the factual propositions that the court is going to accept? And that can only be done on evidence. And normally, that's documents or witnesses, either either there are documents that show this fact, or there are witnesses that say that happened. And so if you've got a strong grasp of that, of what, what facts do we want the court to accept? And what's our evidence of those facts? And then the next stage is, if, if those facts are accepted, does that mean our client, you know, gets an order for damages or not, or whatever you see? And that's, that's what a legal proposition is? Because ultimately, because the legal, you know, the law is, when certain facts have happened, the law characterizes it in a certain way they say those set of facts that's negligence or those set of facts, that's a breach of contract, or that's not, you know, so ultimately, at the end of it, I mean, at the end of a trial, when you're giving your closing address, really what what you're putting forward, here are the facts, we say have been proven with this evidence, and here are the legal propositions and legal propositions are usually evidenced by other cases. And if you kind of logically go through all of that, that means that you know, our clients successful. And so the whole time you're on a matter, you kind of always building that up and contributing to that in different ways. So either when you give your first advice to a client who comes to us with I mean, now the client doesn't come to me straightaway with their problem. They go to a solicitor first. But when the client first comes to the lawyer and says, I've got this problem, what should I do about it? Even at that point, really what you're doing is trying to work out what were the facts? And can they be proven? And what's the law? And does that work out? Because as often, the law is often unclear, it's often open to debate. But, yeah, I find, if I just keep it, I just try to keep a focus on that, because that's ultimately from start to finish. There's a lot of noise in between a lot of fights about whether documents have been provided and this and that, but all of them should be should really be anchored on that anyway. I mean, because the documents should only you should only be entitled to get documents outside if they're actually relevant to the facts in issue at the trial, and things like that. So all of them can be can be kind of built up anchored to that. How long does it take you to prepare for for a three week trial? Or three week trial? Well, there's often good. So if you're talking about just preparing for the trial, good rule of it would be at least the same number of days in court that you'd need to prepare. Wow. So so it's always that it's always that much. So normally, if someone if a solicitor says comes to me and says, Oh, we've done all the work, were kind of ready for trial, we've done the pleadings, and we've got the documents, and we're just doing the trial. Now. Normally, my estimate is however long the trial is, I need the same amount of time to prepare. And then But then, but then aside from that, if you're doing the other things earlier, if you preparing the Statement of Claim, you might be preparing witness statements, other things. So some, some cases proceed by way of written witness statement. And that takes a heap of work. And others proceed by why you call the witness, and they give their evidence orally. But if it's if it's written witness statements, I mean, there's one theory that that's meant to save court time, because you don't have everyone sit around giving their evidence orally. But I've always found that ends up costing a lot more, because because you've got to when you're meeting with your witness for the purpose of getting them ready to give evidence in court orally, that's one thing, you've got to go through everything with them and find out what they say about different things. But if you putting putting their evidence in writing, you will also then have to make sure it's in admissible form. Worry about different words, because if we if this word is used, they're going to be accused of it. That means this, and it just ends up ends up taking longer. Yeah, so complicated. Yeah. Yeah, I've heard the stories. I just think I find it fascinating, by the way, like, you know, as I'm sitting here, you're probably thinking, gee, crescendo seems so quiet. Probably all the all my listeners have been busy. They're busy. I was hoping. I was hoping I was hoping that I was going to try and speak as for as little as possible in this and just get you get us talking. That was my plan. I know. Remember what I said? No, I know, you said that I learned from my last year. We went back we had I actually spent the last series if anyone has an adult in there is some cracking episodes in there. Some amazing people just like Enzo today, but I wanted to take a different approach on this one I, I wanted to do more listening. And you know, it's hard when you know someone so well, but you're talking about stuff that really interests me. And, you know, I'm fascinated the complexities right there. But also, I always say to my uncle in particular, you've always makes it really hard. Right? Like the language you use is difficult to comprehend from my small minded mind. And he says, Well, if we made it too easy, everyone could do it. And I just sit there. And there's the point make it easy. So we don't have to give indication. It would be I mean, the ultimately these true that, you know, from society's point of view, money spent on legal fees are basically just a cost that if you could eliminate that cost that would be good for society. I mean, there's no no doubt about that. But in order to, you know, the courts are really the last place to resolve disputes. If you can't resolve disputes yourself, you have an arm of you know, the courts actually are there to decide it determined that if you can't resolve it yourself. Because of that, through hundreds of years, all these procedures have developed in a piecemeal fashion, no one at the start, just sat back and design the court system. It kind of developed bit by bit developed and changed and evolved over hundreds of years. And it's not perfect, but a pretty, pretty good system. It does I think, protect people's rights. In the way it needs to. But one, one result is that it's very, very expensive. And that's the worst. That's kind of the worst bit about our system and something which if it could be improved, really needs to which is that going to court is having a trial is often horrendously expensive. Yeah. I think, though that I know, some stats around this. And maybe you you definitely more. Not a lot. Not many cases actually go to trial, like in terms of the amount of disputes that there are. Very few actually go to trial, correct? Yeah, look, I've heard stats of only 5% or 3%, probably, but I'm not sure how that's calculated, I don't know if that's from from statement of claim is filed. Or, or earlier, or, you know, I'm not, if you have it yet, I'm just not sure how that stats calculated, I must say, from my perspective, because I now as a barrister, I often get brought into matters later. So, you know, from a solicitors when I was listed, and that someone comes to me, I'm giving them advice, and we write some letters, and we have a meeting we try to resolve and we've and we probably can, at that point, we would have involved a barrister at all. So me and my role now I've never even seen that part of it, you know, I only get brought in, in mostly I get brought into matters where the solicitor has formed a view that looks like we are going to have to have a trial. So now yeah, now in my role, a lot of lot of my mother's a much higher percentage of my mentors ran, I mean, we still were pretty much I would, you would be we are at a very high level because I agree, every had to engage a barrister. It's because, you know, the other party won't budge and it's just time to flex, you know, and let the law do its thing. But in a lot of matters also settle, you know, a day before trial commences because finally someone sees the light bulb and goes, hang on a minute, this is going to cost me $400,000. You know, it's my ego at stake, nothing more, what am I going to do? But look, I just got it sorry, before, I just gotta say on that topic, you can often often if you prepare really well, for a matter, there's a higher chance of it settling as well, because you can give realistic advice to your own client, if there are real weaknesses, you give that advice and say they're real weaknesses, and we've need to, you know, lower your expectations for this. And, or, on the other hand, if if the case is genuinely very strong. If you're well prepared, you'll probably be able to convince the other side that he's very strong in it not a not by, you know, not not by bullying them. But just by calmly saying, well, here's our case, these are the documents which support it. And so you should be giving us a good offer yet. The reason why for anyone watching on YouTube, you'll see I've been smiling, as Enzo says that my uncle has driven me nuts on this exact topic. And obviously Enzo knows my uncle. Well. My uncle is formidable as a solicitor. He's so methodical, and he basically prepares you for trial on the first day you briefing, and it's like, and he goes down. So well, you know, I've got a matter that we're working through at the moment. And I turned around, so we need to brief him and that's it. So are we hiring a barrister immediately, he's just just get out of office. Because I already know what's going to happen. It's like you've got with him, it's the entire download. But the reason why every matter of brought to him, we never go to trial. And even if we are about to go to trial, someone will just settle because he's so well prepared. And he just doesn't want to lose. So it's like, well, if the facts aren't there, then this is where we need to be. And it took me a long time to understand that, like, you know, when you're younger think you're in my line of work. Where you know, litigations do occur, particularly good businesses that are owned in partnerships. That's the biggest area. You know, no, no partnership is ever equal, is the message that I send out to people. You might be 50% partners, but there's always one person that does more of the work, and there's always someone who thinks they're smarter. So you get into these debates and and, you know, his philosophy was is you can never be prepared enough. And sometimes I've said and suddenly it will just be like 400 hours for something that you could have gone in and just going hey, can we settle for x? Right? So I get it, but I want to move away from that. We've been on the dial for a while. And I know that you've got family and I appreciate it and it's late and you're in trouble. This series, were trying something really different at the end, and I'm calling it the Fast Five in five. Now, you're not I'm not asking you to answer five questions in five seconds. But five and five minutes perhaps and they great questions, because I think they share a little bit more insight about you. A caveat for everyone on the call, so has no idea what these five questions are. And I was going to throw a couple of old doozers in there. And then I thought, No, I can't do it to firm either. First, am I the first person in the new format? Are you the very first? Unlike the last series, where we filmed the whole series, and then release them? Yeah. And you were at the launch? We're going to release this. Within two weeks. Yep. So I'm filming tomorrow, and then a couple more next week. But you're gonna be thrown out there for them to say, and also, I mean, to all my listeners out there, that will dress is Enzo. I mean, seriously. I, when he got on the call us, he didn't have to get dressed up for me with me. I mean, my famous black$20 t shirt. You know, someone actually said to me as as a Christian. You're a chief adviser and executive chairman of so many companies now independent checks. Do you turn up to board meetings in that T shirt? I said, I have 14 of them. Right. So it's pretty much the only thing that gets added is a jacket. Right? My philosophy is that I don't need to hurt to get away with with providing advice. But that's, that's the photo behind you. It's a black T shirt and jacket right behind you. Oh, yes. That's it. That's right. It's not there. So a makeshift sign I actually had my son. This is actually my real office. You know, people were sent me. How can you don't use a green screen? I'm like, I don't know why. All the things are on display. I've got lots of awards, lots of degrees, and you know, a book and Oh, hang on the frozen. Just had you just froze for a moment. Sorry. I got you back. Actually, we had it's my internet connection. Ironically, my office has gigabyte internet. So I'm not sure how I ever get an unstable connection. Yeah, this time we're not there's no one here. So we'll work on that. Matt. Listen, five. So we've got five questions for you. What makes you feel inspired? Yeah, I suppose it'd be I mean, heck, yeah. Hanging out my daughter, Penny. So I'm just so happy at the Polo. What was that couple of weeks ago? Yeah. And I said to Lucia, once I said, so jealous. We didn't bring the kids. And they were weeping in it. And then and then you know, you had a couple of minders with you. You know, Penny was like, Oh, I'm gonna go hang out with them. And when we come back guys clarified in bring, I didn't bring minders with me. So they just these were people that Penny met and decided she liked it that he brought binders, right, Lisa? So you can't hide anything on this podcast right now. I just find I just find the time I spend with her is like that is like nothing other. And I yeah, I mean, I never imagined that having having a kid would would bring this much joy. And yeah, just the converse conversations I had with her and yeah, I just can't I can't even describe what it what it's been like for me personally to have her. Yeah, I I'm so privileged that I know. I remember that. And just quick. I'm just gonna go over at the time. But because Lisa works next door, one of the pubs that I used to own, I actually got to see Lisa pregnant when she had penny, and you would come in and we would talk about this. And we were talking about the joy that I had from having children. Yeah, I just your life. And you have and we talked about this when we see each other. And I think that that is a is a common bonding with certain people. I mean, I I waited a long time to settle down and have children as we know that I was pretty wild. But I it's the best thing that's ever happened to me. Like, I can't, there is no greater gift and there is no for me, it has really truly made me a better person. And I certainly know that from you. So I love the fact that that is what makes you feel inspired. And I can relate to that. So question number two. Yeah, what is the best compliment you have ever received? I reckon it's just been in the last hour. One of the things I don't know which one but the compliments I've had in the last hour I've never never had, you know, in a row that many a row before or the other No, I think I mean, it's probably cliche, but you know, my parents would always be You know, be proud of me if I'd put effort in in when I was a kid, you know, and would kind of just encourage that and I am. So if I'd you know, if I didn't really matter what what the outcome was, but if they knew I'd really worked hard at something, they, they were really proud of that and encouraging of that. So I think when I was a kid that was probably probably stuck with me. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's quite beautiful to hear that. Now, if you could be remembered for one thing. What would it be? I think I think probably the. At the end of it all, the only thing that really matters is how the relationships you've had with people and how you've treated people. So if people just remembered me as, as being a good, good person in my mind, not, not in general, but in my interactions with them that I'd be I'd be happy. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. That got you doing it you had to think of? I think that's gonna be the question that gets everyone. Yeah, it was really, what do you want to do Tuesday? Essentially? Yeah, I'm not much, you know, like, like, I'm not really much into into legacy or anything. I'm not, you know? Yeah. Those things that don't matter don't matter much. yet. Did you watch the shame Warren Memorial? No, not. So I did. And I actually, I think I tweeted, I wish that I wish I'd actually met him. Yeah, because it wasn't. I grew up watching Shane Warne be the superstar and what a magician he was. I mean, he made me love cricket. Right. And, and, but what I didn't know was all the other things about it. And I actually sat there, I openly admit it. I just cry for three hours. Yeah. And it wasn't because I was sad. I was just rejoiced that what this man, a spider, he was just to be a great father to his kids. And, you know, he, but yeah, he was the greatest legspinner of all time, if not one of the greatest bowlers of all time, or one of the greatest Hall of Famers, and cricket. And I think guys like you and I, who spend a lifetime trying to master our careers, right? Because we want to be good at what we do. Right? I think that's what separates a top achievers that you have this, you're driven by passion and purpose. But then you want to have this dynamic with your family. Because without that you have no fulfillment. Your achievement is nothing without fulfillment. And so I think that's what's really important that Sorry, can I just I'd read, read somewhere that Winston Churchill, you know, when World War Two was on, someone said to him, or, you know, why, why should we still be spending money on the arts, when we've got a water fight, we need to cut the arts budget and put it all into the war budget? Yeah. And he just said, Well, what would we be fighting for? Then? What's the if we, if we cut all that? And that's, that's often what I think about if at work and family, if, if your work in Korea comes at the expense of your family, then what are you doing it for? Yeah. And then your field, there's, you know, there's a lot of sacrifices. So, you know, a lot of other friends who, you know, have a challenge in their space. Number one book recommendation for our listeners, because you have a lot of books behind you. Yeah, this is just my is my study at home. Are they more books? All my law, all my law books are in chambers, which I have a lot. Yeah, I've a pretty good collection. If I say that. I was a few. I read a lot of non nonfiction. And maybe, maybe my number one was certainly from at the time I read it, because I hadn't really read anything else in the area of evolutionary psychology. I really took a lot out of how the mind works by Steven Pinker. You and loved absolutely loved that book when I when I read it. So yeah, that might be one if Oh, and he's rationality. Last year, actually, last year, he he published rationality and I liked it so much that I bought 50 copies and gave them out to solicitors for Christmas presents. Whether you like that book better than you like mine, you can buy 50 of mine. If you want some more, I got plenty more. I've got yours. I've got two copies of yours. I've got a hard copy and I've got the one Kindle. No, I know you had by now, the book sales are going quite well. So I'm just under 7000. Now we're just bent over So, you know, we consider the average author, like an unknown person like me sells 250 copies in their lifetime. I got a decent ROI out of that nonsense that I called a book. But, but now that I know that you've bought 50, rationale, I need to go rationality, I need to go buy this book. It's really good. Let's see how the hell did that. Last question. Yep. And this is this is a toughy. All right, I got asked this question. And I thought I would ask everyone else's question. If you could have a billboard with anything on it? What would it be? And why? Where's the built? Where's the billboard displaying? Anyway? Long if you could have a billboard with? Right? What would it be and why? It's funny is that you get asked to scrape your mind just fucking goes everywhere. Right? So I when I get asked, I can't even I can't even tell anyone what I was thinking at first. But if you could have a billboard with anything on it, what would it be? And why? Yeah, I must say I have absolutely no idea. But I'll keep thinking your brain is telling you a whole bunch of things, but it's just like, Yeah, well, yeah. The I mean, so I really feel it's quite a big responsibility, particularly because you've given me the option of making the billboard as big as I want and putting it in any place I want as well. So you know, the yeah, sorry, down there. I have absolutely no idea. Christian. I'm gonna have to take up. All right, for attending the roundabout Dearborn. Right. And you could there are no laws, no rules. Okay. So forget advertising principles. What would you if you put anything on it? What would it be? And why? Yeah, I think so. I mean, the question that you're asking walkers. What a billboard does is people who walk or drive past it, see it and read it. And it will either contain some information of some sort, even if it's words or a drawing. So it's, you're essentially asking, if you're giving me the opportunity to impart some information to a group of to the public in a particular place. What you know, what, what would I How would I compare your analyzer as a brand new laser jammer? This is a technique that he's using, thinking, and he's just wearing out this this Dubli group while he's processing? Because I'm trying to I'm trying to work out. I'm trying to come to my own answer by by putting some some logic behind that, you know, what, rather than what would I put on a billboard, I'm now trying to answer, what information would I want to impart to a group of the of random group of the public who are driving down the roundabout returning a roundabout? Ah, I think I'd maybe just put something I don't know what we're just trying to just put something that might make people smile and laugh, because you know, you can't have too much of that. So if I came up with something that is something completely meaningless, like nothing profound, just something that will cheer people up as they're driving home, that'd be enough for mouthing. Right. I love that. You know, what, we're going to bring you back for part two of this is, that answer was completely crap. And you know what, I think every episode is going to end with that my saying, You got to come back and come back with an answer. Next time when you asked me what my biggest failure is, I'll say that I could not say Christians last question of the five or five, eight, I got asked that question on a podcast. It's quite a famous question. Because yeah, podcast. And they just looked at me because I just I froze, and I was like, Oh, I would do something that would shock people. And then you answer the so fast. I said, I have no idea what's actually going on in my brain by then. And, and then I later discovered speaking to a friend of mine, who's a clinical psychologist, it's actually a really did question because it gets people to think and you did it, you processed it, because you're not the type of person that says immediately what comes to mind, whereas me it Whatever comes out comes out. So but look, Enzo, I do want to thank you, I, you've given me so much of your time, Enzo, it's been an absolute pleasure. And I mean that an absolute pleasure in having you on the show. So thank you. I also want to take this time while I've still got you here to thank our listeners, and we value and know that there are hundreds of 1000s of podcasts that that they could be listening to, or watching on YouTube. And yet, we know that they chose to listen to us. And even if I only have one listener, I'm satisfied because we're making a difference. And, and I love that, but I just want to let everyone know make sure that you visit the show notes where you will actually find useful links. So the book, how the mind works and rationality, which by the way, is a book 50 copies of so it's got to be good, the expectation the bar has now been set. We'll also have on there and I do encourage you to connect with Enzo because not only is a really good bloke is outstanding barrister will provide his LinkedIn URL in there so people can can connect with you. I also want to do a massive shout out to my awesome team who are probably all tucked away in bed right now. Business Growth, mindset and growth outsource business, our media company Minister Charlene ergens and when your advisory firm for their support, but also for their resilience in putting up with me. So if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, please do and remember to change those notification settings otherwise you will miss future episodes. And we don't want that do we NZ so Enzo, I would also think Lisa for giving you the time and also for Penny, who is probably tucked away in bed and she's Yeah, you may have missed that. And I know that that's one of the hardest parts about what we do is you know not putting our bed at children are dead. I haven't done it a week this week because I've been working late, but I can't wait for the 3am Cuddles when they both streaming to my bed and suffocate me. And then I try and bought as fast as I can. But so thank you so much. We will be continuing this conversation and to all our listeners until next time, live with purpose