Ride Home Rants
Ride Home Rants
The GOAT Debate: Defining Athletic Greatness
What makes a truly great athlete? Is it dominance in a single sport, versatility across multiple disciplines, or possessing physical gifts that defy normal human limitations? In this thought-provoking roundtable, our panel of sports experts – Matt, Mike, and TJ – tackle the fascinating question of who deserves recognition as the greatest athletes of all time.
The conversation begins with a surprising debate about which professional sports league features the most athletic players. While the NFL receives its expected praise for specialized athleticism, the panel makes a compelling case for NHL players deserving more recognition. As our host notes, "If you put NFL players in skates, most of them fall on their face," highlighting how the coordination and balance required for hockey represents a unique athletic challenge that's often underappreciated.
From Michael Phelps to Wilt Chamberlain, the discussion examines what separates merely excellent athletes from the truly transcendent ones. Chamberlain's case proves particularly fascinating – beyond his NBA dominance, he became a professional volleyball player, marathon runner in his 50s, and was considered stronger than both Andre the Giant and Arnold Schwarzenegger during his Hollywood days. These cross-discipline achievements raise important questions about how we define athletic greatness.
The panel also explores the underrated athleticism of professional boxers, Olympic wrestlers, and even WWE performers. As TJ notes about boxers, "The mental toughness it takes to be a boxer, to be able to just do that, to be able to say, 'Hey, my body's on the line here and I'm sitting here trying to defend myself and also knock out the guy that's in front of me'" represents a unique combination of physical and psychological demands that few other sports require.
Whether you're passionate about sports history or simply curious about human physical potential, this conversation will challenge your thi
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Welcome everybody to another episode of the Ride Home Rants podcast. This is your special guest, host Fitty, and today I'm filling in for Mike Bono, as we bring you the greatest athletes ever roundtable with three phenomenal guests bringing in the big three. And notice, ain't LeBron James bringing in the big three? This is the Ride Home Rants big three right here, with special guest host Fitty turning the mic on these questions today. So before we get into the show, though, make sure you peep all of our sponsors in the pre-roll and post-roll. They're all small business owners. They're great supporters of this show. They help make this show go along with all of our listeners and these special guests who have been on for individual shows and roundtables.
Speaker 1:Today we bring you the big three in here who have been involved in sports on multiple levels, whether it's college athletics, it's college coaching, high school coaching, educating. They're going to give you a lot of great insight to the greatest athletes ever as we break down a lot of great questions here for you. So I'd like to introduce my guests Matt, mike and TJ. They're going to go through, introduce themselves, guys, and then you're going to tell everybody what your favorite subject in high school was, and then are you a fan of fishing? And if you are a fan, where's your favorite place to go fishing at? So we'll start with you, matt.
Speaker 2:Well, my name is Matt. I'm happy to be here. My favorite subject in school was either advanced physical education or weightlifting and no other no others in the running and absolutely love fishing but actually love watching my son fishing more than I actually like to fish.
Speaker 1:Okay, spoken like a true proud dad right there, matt. So looking like a true proud dad right there. So let's go to Mike.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so favorite subject was probably AP Psych. I jumpstarted my whole career and then not a big fisherman, but can't say no to a boat day.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, and TJ.
Speaker 3:TJ Lett. Glad to be back In high school. My favorite subject was history. I just love the different opinions and the different ways that you can go about looking at it, trying to learn from it, trying to dissect it, and you know, just you know, going through all the things that's happened in the past and trying to be better in the future. But I can count on one hand the times I've held a fishing rod. So I'm not a big fisherman at all, but definitely boats. Boats are great. I love being on a boat and, you know, just hanging out. So I'm halfway there. We'll see what the future holds.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, my favorite subject in school, man, I really liked gym class. Gym class was a lot of fun. We got to do swimming as well. So I grew up um being in a in a pool like. We were taught that from an early age in school. Um really like those gym classes, though, man. We used to have the wiffle ball tournaments and the soccer tournaments. Um play flag football on on, uh, on the hill outside um. So a lot of good times, a lot of good times.
Speaker 1:So probably favorite subject was was gym, um, and then no, I am not a fisherman. I do not like touching fish and I do not have the heart to pull a fish out of the water and watch it die on shore. So just, unfortunately not my thing. But I do respect fishermen because that is a way way harder endeavor than what people think. So it kind of leads us into then these questions, right? So, matt, we're going to start with you on this, and then we're going to go Mike and then we're going to go TJ. But you have the NFL, the NHL, the NBA and MLB. How would you rank them from the most athletic individuals to the least athletic individuals?
Speaker 2:Wow, you're leading off with the tough ones right here. But you know, I think all four sports you get to see athleticism on full display. The NFL I'd probably rank number one because it's very specialized and very unique per position and skills. So you need to have specialized niche athleticism. Obviously the NBA, but I mean, up until my son started playing travel hockey and getting into ice hockey, I tell you you got to be a good athlete to play in the NHL too, because geez, oh man, then I don't know, it's hard. You got to try to hit a 99 mile an hour fastball too.
Speaker 4:So I don't know, I'd probably stick with my initial initial right off the bat thoughts of I'd go NFL, nba, nhl, major League Baseball, if you put me to it. Okay. Okay, mike, what are you saying about this? Yeah, so I, I think nfl has got to be at the top. Um, those guys are freaks.
Speaker 4:Um, just, you see so many people who never make it in the nhl or, sorry, the NFL that are just phenomenal athletes and they make it in another sport. Right, they'll transition and they'll be almost at the same level in something that they didn't even really focus on. Um, then you know, I'm going to flip it just a little bit. Uh, with nhl being second and nba being third. Um, just, I think I gained a lot of appreciation for the nhl. Uh, with my cousins playing hockey, and every so often I'll see a wayne gretzky uh thing come up on, you know instagram reels or something, where he's just dusting some soccer player um in a sprint and like some kind of performance thing. Nba, obviously, I mean that's where it gets like from. Like, you can just be a freak athlete and then learn some skill, learn the skills. But then nba and mlb I mean the skill to be, be in a three-pointer consistently and the skill to even look at a fastball is insane.
Speaker 4:We have a track guy now who's been embroiled in some controversy but he keeps posting that he's joining the MLB. I'm looking at his posts and I'm like Fred man, what are you doing? The second, you see, he won't even see. He won't even see. 100 mile per hour fastball I would if I was given 1,000 attempts. If I swung the bat 1,000 times, I would hit zero. 100 mile. Anhour runs right down the middle Absolutely none. So still freak athletes for sure, but I think it does have to rank fourth on that list.
Speaker 1:Okay, now our resident baseball guy here, tj. What do you got to say about all this?
Speaker 3:Here's a surprise Baseball will be last for me me, actually, for the least amount of athleticism. Here's why you got some of these big, large power hitters. That's what they're good at. They're good at power hitting, but if you tell them to, hey, we're gonna run a mile or we're gonna do a sprint, they're not gonna be able to do that.
Speaker 3:A high jump. There most of them are quick but it's not. You can't compare the athleticism between them and like an offensive lineman or a defensive lineman that have the same body type. So, no, baseball is last. You don't need the athleticism. The skill set's so specific that you can not, you can be a bad athlete but be a great baseball player. So, yeah, that'll be last.
Speaker 3:Actually for me, um, number one, I will say, as the nfl, they just the things that they're able to do with their bodies, how quick they actually are. I think because they're all so fast we don't realize how fast they actually are unless we were right next to them. So, um, but you hear about the how, their high jump athletes, long jump athletes, and high school, high school track athlete, uh, you know, all American, you know a hundred yard, a hundred meter, uh, meter, sprint tapes. So the NFL has definitely have probably the top athletes, and then I'm going to go to the NHL.
Speaker 3:The ability to skate already is an athletic movement that is not common for most people and I think that we grow up. Maybe it's just so because how we are in America, we grew up shooting basketballs, we grew up jumping, we grew up doing those things. But skating is such an unnatural movement. You have to be an athlete to be able to have that type of balance without your feet and be able to get up and down. And they go so quick too. It's unbelievable their reaction times. So NHL will be second, the NBA third. Again, they jump through the roof. I just don't think we understand how athletic they are. You're on a court side seat and things like that. And then, like I said, the MLB. The skills are special, the ability to hit is special, the ability to throw is special. But you can also have Alejandro Kirk, catcher for the Toronto Blue Jays is 5'7", 240 pounds, and he's a professional baseball player that can barely move, but he's great at what he does, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to give mine here. I'm going to work backwards. I'm going to say MLB for sure Not that there's not great athletes there, and we're going to talk about this a little bit later but I'm going to say that. I'm going to say the NBA, I'm going to say the NFL is second, I'm going to say hockey is first, and TJ kind of touched upon these reasons. But I want you to think about this.
Speaker 1:Think about how athletic a tennis player is. With their stop-start lateral movement. They're probably quicker than NFL wide receivers. Now think about that tennis player doing that on skates, moving side to side and front to back and stopping on a dime on skates. If you put NFL players in skates, most of them fall on their face. If you tell an NHL hockey player to go run into somebody as hard as they can and try to take them out on grass, they're going to do it. So you got to look at it that way too. More hockey players will succeed being skill guys in football because of their athletic ability than NFL players will succeed being skill guys in football because of their athletic ability. Then NFL players will be less successful on the ice because they do not have the coordination to stop and start on a dime in skates because it's not a natural movement, kind of what TJ talked about. But it's close, all right. So number two here.
Speaker 1:The second question I want to get everybody's opinion on this. The Olympic great, michael Phelps, is considered one of the greatest athletes of all time for his plethora of gold medals. In the pool ranking, you know, or coming in, you know, his body type is six foot five, enormous wingspan, you know. His cardiovascular endurance is is one of the best, if not best, probably, in modern history of athletics. Where does Michael Phelps rank as an all-time overall greatest athlete, matt? What's your opinion?
Speaker 2:I think he's in the top 10. He's got to be in the top 10. You know it's hard to argue with everything you just said. So you know, uh, when people think of and especially now as time goes by, when they think of Olympic swimming, they think of Michael Phelps, just like probably all of us we're going to touch to later all of our other top athletes in all these sports. So his name immediately comes to mind. So, yeah, I'd put them in the top 10. I mean, mean, I don't know, we'll probably get into later on where everybody fits where.
Speaker 1:So I'll just say top 10 okay, okay, coach larkin, what do you say about this?
Speaker 4:I like that answer. I like that answer a lot. Top 10. I mean his, his accolades just from the metal total, his longevity in the sport and the fact that, like, his skills are so transferable out of the water from the athletic perspective, like man does not make lactic acid like a normal human being. You put him on a bike, you put him in endurance running, you put him in anything where he's able to, where recovery is the limiting factor, he's gonna crush so many people. So, like, yeah, does he ever develop the skill to, you know, catch a one-handed uh pass in the end zone and toe tap out of bounds in the nfl, bro, who knows right? But but his pure genetics for being an elite athlete, he's going to out-recover everybody, and at the top level. That's what you need. So I like that top 10 answer man.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, tj, what are you saying about this?
Speaker 3:I completely agree. And the minute that, what came to my mind was how elite are you at what you do? And obviously he's at the top of that list when it comes to swimming and history, just in my opinion. So that has to account for something. There's been millions of people that have tried to do what he does and can't do it as well as he does it. So now you start to take in. What does that mean? That means that he had the dedication to be able to perfect that skill. He had the mental capacity to be able to withstand the ups and downs and the hour-long practices. You hear about his meal plan where it's like 15,000 calories before noon or something ridiculous, to be able to keep that um, keep himself in prime, elite, olympic shape. And for as many people that never even make it out of qualifiers for him to go and run the gauntlet as well as he did, um, you know it goes for, it has to go for something so he's able to use his body, his body, extremely well.
Speaker 1:So top 10 for sure is is an easy, easy, easy lock okay, okay, now one of the next guys we're going to talk about is probably one of my favorite um professional athletes of all time. I think he's probably um one of the top five athletes if of all time, if not potentially number one wilt chamberlain. Wilt chamberllain was a pro NBA player of an offensive force that the NBA has still never seen. Wilt Chamberlain retired from the NBA and became a professional indoor volleyball player and a Hall of Famer in indoor volleyball, standing at seven feet one. He also became a marathon runner in his 50s. At 45 years old. Wilt Chamberlain was offered an NBA contract after being retired, and there is stories out there that when Magic Johnson came into the league in 1980, a retired Wilt Chamberlain came in and beat the living shit out of Magic Johnson in practice and humbled him, and then Magic Johnson thus went on and won an nba finals mvp that year. Will chamberlain also was a dynamic track guy in college as a sprinter, jumper, um and thrower. If he's like a 57 foot shot putter, 10.9 in the 100 yard dash over 50 foot triple jumper probably most impressive, though, um, for us old guys here will.
Speaker 1:Will Chamberlain played in Conan the Destroyer with Andre the Giant and Arnold Schwarzenegger and you think about Andre the Giant. For people that don't know him, he was 7'4", 500 pounds. Rest in peace, you know. And Arnold Schwarzenegger probably two of the strongest human beings ever. They both said Will Chamberlain was stronger than both of them. He could curl over 500 pounds. Now it's according to Arnold Schwarzenegger. So, with all that being said and what we know about Will Chamberlain, where does Will Chamberlain rank as one of the most dominant and athletic people of all time? Matt, what would you say about?
Speaker 2:this.
Speaker 2:I mean, the stats don't lie, and everything you said is true. Like I said, he's got to be up there. I think most of the people you have in here I think I'm the oldest one on the round table, so thanks for having an old guy on here you know, it's really difficult when you start thinking about this, and we're going to be on the show of people that you've only heard stories of or you've seen highlight films of, that you never really got to see in person. So I kind of almost feel like I was robbed of not being able to appreciate an athlete like Wilt Chamberlain, you know, in real time.
Speaker 2:But I mean everything you said. I mean he's got to be up there. I mean, you know, if you just name a mount rushmore of nba talents, he'd be up there, um, but if you're talking overall athletes, he's got to be there too. But, uh, you know, you should remember, uh, luau sindor was in enter the dragon though, too, and you're talking about movies. I, I thought you're gonna go that. I thought you're gonna go that route, because watching him, uh, uh, kicking bruce lee was pretty impressive too.
Speaker 1:So yeah, okay, that was a good one. I forgot, I forgot about that. Um, you know, coach larkin, you're a, you're a track guy, you know, uh, you really. But knowing about will chamberlain's prowess and that you know where does, will chamberlain rank those the greatest athlete of all time in your opinion?
Speaker 4:hey, again, I feel like as we go through like these you know greats it's gonna be like, oh crap, I forgot about him. This top 10 list is gonna expand real quick. Um, but like the biggest knock on will chamberlain's career was that, did he score? Did he really score 100? And it's like, yeah, maybe he only scored 93, but that's still ridiculous. It's like, yeah, maybe he only scored 93, but that's still ridiculous. It's like, ah, he might not have scored 100, but it was 90-something. It's like, does it really matter at that point if you lost by so much that people forgot no, it must have been 100. Yeah, so it's tough.
Speaker 4:And coming from the track world, nobody does that anymore. And he's built different. He's skinny but throws the shot put Like a nuke right, then triple jumps, then sprints high jumps. If he had been a decathlete he would have been a decathlon world champion. If he had been a triple jumper, he probably would have been a world champion triple jumper. He did more than Phelps did, which we just talked about. He's top 10, so Wilt's got to be higher just by breadth of his uh, his athletic ability and that he's shown at an elite level sure, sure, tj.
Speaker 1:I know you're the youngest guy on the panel here, but, uh, what are you saying about will chamberlain?
Speaker 3:yeah, I've obviously only know the stories, only know, maybe only get to see some of the the grainy video, but you can see the fear of the people that were around him on the court. You could see that they were. Just you know he's gonna do what he's gonna do and there's not much that anybody else can do about it. So he seems like the athlete and just like the little study I've been doing because I you know I like to study a lot of great black athletes um, it seemed like basketball wasn't even his best sport, which is kind of scary.
Speaker 3:Um, you talked about the sprinting. Um, I believe that was like the first one that they talked about. I was like he did it just because. But he could have done that until whenever he decided to stop. And can you imagine a guy, 7-1, just sprinting that fast? Like, do you even want to be around when that happens? I'll let him finish first and we'll come after. But and you talk about polarizing, there's a reason why 50, 60, 70 years later, he's still a guy you talk about, still a guy you bring up, and a guy that if you were to plug him in, even in this generation of basketball, in this generation of athlete it would still stand, and those are few and far between. So I agree with that. If we're talking top 10, he's you know. Now we're getting into that six, five, four range now with Will Chamberlain.
Speaker 1:Sure, and I think the thing people got to realize is I mean, he retired as a dominant NBA player, but he became a professional volleyball player, and anyone that's tried to play volleyball volleyball is not easy, like your hand-eye coordination and the movement, the lateral movement, the jumping, the things that go into that. But then to get in the marathon running and then not even be in the NBA for 10 years and get offered a contract and go beat up on Magic Johnson arguably top three NBA player of all time and then to have Andre the Giant and Arnold Schwarzenegger compliment you and say how strong, how physically just strong you are at 50 years old and yeah, think Arnold Jung right, that's 40 years ago. Arnold Schwarzenegger's 36, 37 years old, right, like prime Arnold, you know. Will Chamberlain's 50, you know, and he's still just just barbarically strong. I mean, said he, just, he would run out of weights trying to weightlift with those guys. So I'll tell you what, though, matt, that would have been one heck of a weight room session seeing Arnold and Andre the Giant and Will Chamberlain thrown around some weight man, that would have been one heck of a weight room session.
Speaker 1:So one of the next things I want to go into we're talking about now. We're talking about some two sporters here. We'll bring up a couple of guys you know Bo Jackson, deion Sanders both played in the NFL and the MLB. You had John Elway, who won a couple couple Super Bowls as an NFL starting quarterback, drafted in the second round of the MLB by the Yankees. Why do you think, in your opinions, is there such a higher correlation with NFL players playing in the MLB, or having that opportunity to play in the MLB, compared to the NBA or NHL? Why do you think that NFL MLB connection is so much smoother than the NBA or NHL? So, matt, what's your opinion?
Speaker 2:I think it used to be much more of a correlation. Now, now you're seeing, you're right. Like you mentioned, like Kyler Murray too, was recently drafted pretty high for the A's and ended up turning. You ended up turning down their money in playing.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of it with football has to do with you know you're going to train if you want to be on an elite level, train year round for football and up until fairly recently it was not a 365 day sport. You know, just knowing, even at the youth level, if you want to do hockey and you want to do hockey at a high level, you're doing it 10 months a year. You know if you want to do basketball, heck, they can do basketball 11 and a half months a year, I think. Anymore you can find leagues and stuff to do. So you know, up until fairly recently you know you were training, so you're in shape, you're able to do that, and you know what you get your training in. And, heck, you might as well play baseball in the spring and summer, because you couldn't could only play football in the fall. So I think that has a little bit to do with it.
Speaker 2:But you know also the special specialization of you know athleticism in the NFL, you know you, they're going to find somewhere. If you're an athlete you're going to, you're going to find somewhere to put, put them. You know, and same thing with baseball, I mean, you know. So I guess that's that's it. That's my rant.
Speaker 1:OK, ok, we let. We love rants on the ride home rants podcast, so it's all about. So, mike, what are you saying about this?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I agree it's more of a scheduling conflict than anything. Back in the day, you know, three sport athletes were really common in high school and becoming less and less common at the high school level. And then dual sport athletes in college were common as well, high school level. And then dual sport athletes in college were common as well, and you'd see some of these nfl guys who were also on college basketball teams or also on the college baseball team. And then when you get to the pro level, the scheduling for nfl, nba is difficult. It's really really hard to do, whereas the overlap for the nfl on mlb isn't nearly as difficult, especially back when it was a what? 15 game season, um. So the, the toll it took on your body was, you know, much more confined. There's not three pre games, there's not OTAs or it's not as required.
Speaker 4:And then the MLB season really doesn't overlap in any meaningful way, especially if you're on a bad team. So I do think that it's primarily scheduling. But recently it's become more of that specialization where we don't see those people getting drafted in both at the same time. I think we'll still see, from the high school perspective, mlb drafts out of high school. So we'll still see some NFL guys that, oh yeah, remember when he got drafted as a senior to the Royals or something and then never played. And then finally it's a money thing where if you're going to the NFL you're guaranteed that money In the MLB, like you're drafted, you might be on a bus to nowhere and in triple a and live there for 10 years and you know it's just not as, not as financially rewarding so quickly.
Speaker 1:Sure, okay, you know, tj. What do you say about this? You know you're a former, you know a college baseball player. If you coached high school football, you've coached high school baseball. You know what are you saying about this with that correlation compared to the MLB or, sorry, the NBA or the NHL.
Speaker 3:I think the first thing that came to my mind is like, what do we start with? And like, t-ball is usually like the first thing that people get put into. I think that that's kind of why MLB is. It's the one you do the longest for for most people. The second thing I thought of was OK, you know, we all go shoot a basketball. We could probably do that. But your organized sport football it's really organized from an early age. So you learn all the technique, you learn, okay, this is what linemen do, this is what the defense does. So you kind of learn all that where basketball is kind of hey, you know here's a layup, but you know here's a layup, but you know you can run around in circles and throw the ball up and that's basketball until you're 10 years old. So I think that kind of correlates to the scheduling was the first thing that came to my mind when it came to like I stopped playing basketball in high school in 10th grade.
Speaker 3:So I was a baseball first guy. I loved football, but I was really small, so I was. You know, I was only going to be as good at football as I was going to be. But what happens is you go through a whole football season really, which starts in the summertime, a grueling football season, week after week hitting each other and weightlifting. Then you're like, ok, when's my first break? Your first break was basketball season. So a lot of people stop playing basketball in the wintertime to prepare for OK, now I'm going to go to the spring and get myself ready for baseball. Also, if you're a high level baseball player, you can't go six, eight months or whatever without swinging a baseball bat. So in the wintertime you're working on your baseball stuff and you're like, hey, I got a three-hour basketball practice or I can go and take an hour in the cages, things like that.
Speaker 3:So the money definitely goes into it too. Now I see these really large NBA contracts might make a shift with this. But those again, those are the top guys. It's not the end-of-the guys that get, you know, whatever thousands dollars, whatever they get, still great. But the minor leagues plays a role into how can I play in the NFL now for money versus? Do I have to go through the D league in basketball? Do I have to go through the minor leagues in baseball? So this is where you're going to see a lot of athletes start to choose football, um, and they're trying to make football safer, but, um, again, I just think that baseball is because that you start with T-ball so young. That's why people naturally have done it for 15 years before they make a decision.
Speaker 1:Okay, you know I I think I do agree with you guys on this stuff, but I do also think there's some other factors. I think, like in the older days, nba players were a lot started to get specialized and the NBA, I believe, became more of a global game. You had guys stop playing those other sports because, one, they just weren't physically tough enough to play football anymore and two, they had to become more skilled. Because probably since you could argue Tim Duncan, even though he was a US Virgin Islands Dirk Nowitzki the international players have kept coming and coming and coming and now you can say there's no NBA player who's American, who's in the top five, maybe top six, best players in the NBA right now. So I think it has shifted NBA good basketball players to stop playing other sports because they now have such high competition from international players in the basketball realm for the NHL.
Speaker 1:I think those other people don't play that sport because for some reason as Americans we we laugh at the NHL. I don't think we embrace that. We we do not give those guys enough credit, whether it's physically, emotionally, talent-wise, to give them the time or day. Now, I'm not a big NHL fan. I do like the Islanders, but it's hard to watch a game on TV. But I just don't think, as Americans, we just give them the time of day. But I will tell you this most NHL hockey players would beat the living heck out of any NBA, mlb or NFL player in a fight. You ever seen those guys fight? Go watch Happy Gilmore too as well, but I think that's their thing too. So I do think things have shifted with the NBA dynamics of around the world and people just not giving the NHL the time of day to do it.
Speaker 1:Now I would be curious, just for myself, from wanting to know this like do MLB play, or sorry, the NHL players from these other countries? Do they play any other sports in those countries? Maybe, maybe they play soccer for for the, for the coordination and the cardio, but I don't think they're probably playing basketball in certain places, like in Canada, you know, I don't think they're probably playing basketball in certain places, like in Canada, you know, I don't think they're playing football, because it's such an American sport. Maybe rugby, you know, who knows? I'd be curious about that. But um, and I do think long gone are the days, though, of Bo Jackson and Dion and and John Elway, even Kyler Murray. Jeff Samarja, the big receiver from Notre Dame back in the day, who went to the MLB, had pretty good career, I think, with the Cubs.
Speaker 1:Um, so going on the next one though, you know, um, matt, you were on the round table back in the summer we were talking about, or last year. I think it's even not last summer, we maybe it was last summer, I can't even remember. We have so many episodes here. Everyone about 275ed about Rocky Balboa. We're going to talk about pro boxing right now. So now taking Rocky Balboa out of the equation because he wasn't a true, real boxer. You know, matt, in your opinion, how athletic are professional boxers?
Speaker 2:Unreal athleticism. You know from being on that roundtable, you know my opinion on boxing. I love boxing, I grew up watching it. Yeah, they have to be unreal athletes because you have to have cardio, you have to have strength, you have to have stamina, you have to know how to take a hit and you have to, you know, roll all that into one with only a 45 second to one minute break in between rounds, one with only a 45 second to one minute break in between rounds. So I think there was a time when boxing was more popular, that those, all of your elite athletes would gravitate towards that sport automatically. I know that shifted quite a bit over the past generation or so, but you still have to be a great athlete.
Speaker 1:Okay, what about you, mike? What's your opinion on pro boxers and their athletic abilities?
Speaker 4:Yeah, same thing.
Speaker 4:They're all great athletes, for sure.
Speaker 4:I think one of the things that separates team sports from individual sports like boxing, is you have to know how to win.
Speaker 4:If you're on the defensive side of the ball, you have to know how to win right, like, if you're on the defensive side of the ball, you have to know how to do your job right. You have to know your skill player, whereas boxing, like, you have to know in real time where you are, like nobody's telling you what the scorecard is. You have to know what that scorecard is. You have to know how to win and how to you know either dig yourself out of the hole or hang on for however many rounds, if you know you're not going to knock the guy out right, because sometimes it's not in your arsenal. Um, so I I think you know all of the physical traits are huge, but you also have to be very intelligent about the game, whereas that's not super necessary in a skilled position of a team sport. You just go out there and do your job, whereas in boxing, you are in total control of your own outcome.
Speaker 1:TJ, what are you saying about professional boxers here?
Speaker 3:I think that you just take it back. Boxing is like the man's game, right? You can probably trace that back to the beginning of time, where stand in front of you, don't move. First person to go down is that's who loses, right? So the mental toughness it takes to be a boxer, to be able to just do that, to be able to say, hey, my body's on the line here and I'm sitting here trying to defend myself and also knock out the guy that's in front of me.
Speaker 3:But they talk about how boxers go and take ballet. They need to know how to use their feet. They need to know how to have amazing balance. Their core strength has to be able to deliver a blow and also withstand a blow. It's just, you know the dodging the, the speed that these guys throw punches at.
Speaker 3:I think again, tv doesn't do it justice, as how fast these guys actually are. Um, and you know, with their retraction skills and things, you know their ability to throw in, bring back a punch. So, yeah, I think that the thing that devalued the boxing is maybe the rise of MMA has people have said, oh, it's more interesting to see people, you know, do takedowns and things like that. But I mean, boxing was the number one thing through, like the Great Depression. Boxing was the number one thing for a long, long time for a reason. So, um, you know and, and, and there's a lot of people that try and, oh, I can fight, I can fight, and then you go step in the boxing ring and they don't last very long. So, yeah, there's just appreciation that maybe has been lost over the years with with boxing for sure.
Speaker 1:Sure, and and you know, matt knows this, most people that know me know this, I'm a huge boxing fan. We've had on Kelly Pavlik on the show. We've had on the Handsome Hitman Josh Himes. We've had a lot of MMA fighters. Just had a chance to do the well, I guess it was last summer. But the Tyson-Paul fight.
Speaker 1:I think the thing people don't realize about boxers and to TJ's point, the ballet, the cardio that they have to go through, matt's point, the very short rest periods, like, if you want to know what's intense, go look at a boxer's workout during camp. You know other sports will mimic those workouts to get themselves ready. No boxer is doing an nfl workout. An nfl player is doing a boxing workout, though for his cardio, you know, and his stamina you know. And the fact that you got to, you got to be able to weightlift, you got to know angles. You have to have that hand eye coordination because the thing is, you know to. To Mike's point, you can be hidden. Right If you're on a team, right If you, if you're a weak link in that ring, it's just you and you and the guy in front of you who's trying to knock your head off, literally you know. So I think you know, pro boxers definitely don't get enough credit for being athletic, you know. And yet to TJ's point, you've seen, you know, pro athletes try to go in the ring with boxers and it usually hasn't hasn't worked out too well. Nate Robinson, so you know, when he, when he went in for that. So I think I think if you really want to see something special, just as a sports fan right, you're talking about great athletes go watch. Like the flyweights, uh, you know, in boxing, their hand speed like prime manny pacquiao's hand speed and footwork was unbelievable, um, you know, with that, you know. And for people that say, someone like the super heavyweights Anthony Joshua, um, you know, deontay Wilder, um, tyson, uh, fury, that they're not athletic, go watch those guys too, um, you know, cause I don't think you want to go on the ring with them, uh, either. And if you want to see something even cooler, look up Mike Tyson's workouts when he would do his strength exercises with his neck, when he would do his neck rolls in the ring. So most people couldn't do that either, from just an athletic standpoint.
Speaker 1:So one of the next ones we're going to go into Olympic wrestling, right, olympic wrestlers. People look at Olympic wrestlers and they just usually think, wow, those are some just big guys. Well, those Olympic wrestlers are pretty athletic too and they're pretty tough guys. For people that don't know, kurt Angle WWF wrestler WWE now, but people don't realize that Kurt Angle was a multiple time college national champion. Kurt Angle also won an Olympic gold medal with a fractured neck as well. So, matt, going off of this Olympic wrestlers, to be an Olympic gold medalist, do you have to be more athletic or more physically tough? What's your opinion?
Speaker 2:I would say athletic. You know, once you get to that level, everybody's tough um. You, you know, once you get to that level, everybody's tough um. You have to have mental toughness and physical toughness to succeed at a high level at any sport really, um, but there's a huge difference, uh, you know. Not to uh hijack this, I'll just tell a story real quick. I was playing with some, uh, when I was playing football in college. I mean some college buddies, um, one of my best college friends' brother wrestled at Kent. We went to go see a Division I college wrestling match and watch his brother. We all just looked at each other like holy moly, these guys are way more athletic, way better at us than anything if you say athletic or toughness. So yeah, I think athleticism more than toughness.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, Mike, to be in a gold medal champion in wrestling, in Olympic wrestling, do you have to be tougher or more athletic? Like what is that one factor that takes you over the top in this?
Speaker 4:Athletic athletic for sure. And I think the thing that like athletic for sure and I think the thing that like kind of speaks to that the most is just look at how dominant wrestlers are in the mma right. Tony ferguson in the mma is very tough, too tough. He gets hit in the face and just keeps going. He's a zombie right, and that to the detriment of his mental health. But wrestlers have, you know, as wrestling has kind of gone through some pretty tough times internationally and uh, at the at the world stage and even in the college stage, it's, it's, it's hard to, you know, stay relevant, um, as a sport right now, which is very sad. Mike, the wrestling coach at spire would really get on me for that.
Speaker 4:But those guys are all unbelievably tough. They're animals, they're absolute animals, but they're pivoting and trying to, you know, save their sport and they don't have to change very much at all to be unbelievably successful in another fighting sport, because they will just grab you and move you where they want, and it is. You give a handshake to somebody who does manual labor for a living and you're like, wow, that dude's strong. And then you handshake a wrestler and he might lift you off the ground by accident. Those guys are a different level of just your strength. They may not power clean 400 pounds, but they will move people and things how they want, and they're all fruits.
Speaker 1:Okay, tj, what are you saying about this? So?
Speaker 3:at Notre Dame. When I was there, our wrestling team won the national championship multiple times. So I got to be around a lot of amazing, unbelievably great collegiate athletic wrestlers and the thing that I noticed is they're all great athletes but not all of them had their head on screen. Wrestling is a place where you're not supposed to, but I saw guys that could, you know, stand and do a backflip, a standing backflip, things like that, but then they go in a wrestling match and they lose their head. They lose. You know what is the game plan, what am I supposed to do? And then you see a kid that's just. Oh, you know that. I know a nice kid. You know he's an okay athlete. Obviously it takes to be a great athlete, but he was so smart, so good at what he was trying to execute that that's what got him to being a national champion Again.
Speaker 3:All sports, I don't care. Whatever sport you do, you have to be athletic to be great at that sport. But I think for me, when you have the lack of discipline, the lack of hey, I can take this drill off. You know that separates you. That separates the people that are very good, great and elite. It's just how far are you willing to go and how focused are you willing to be to be able to execute the goal that you set for yourself? And I've seen so many great athletes just fall to the. This is a little too hard, you know so, to me, I think, to be able to do that. You talk about Kurt Angle with the broken neck. You tell me his athleticism wasn't hindered with a broken neck and all of a sudden, his you know intestinal fortitude just took over and said hey, no, I'm winning this, this is for me to win, so Sure sure, I think you guys make all great points on it.
Speaker 1:I'm going to make just three quick points and then we're going to move on to our last three questions. You know. First thing is, to your point, I think everyone is athletic. When you're at the top top of the game and when you're in the Olympics, I think you're so physically beat up that then it just becomes who is tougher, right, who is tougher at this point? Whether it's swimming, cross country or sorry, track and field, you know, whatever it may be, wrestling, it's just who is mentally tougher and physically can push through this. The next thing, though, I will say is you know the toughness part and, TJ, correct me if I'm wrong I think you were there with Joeyey davis, um, during that time at ndc.
Speaker 1:For people that don't know, joey davis is one of three all-time undefeated national champions. Mike, I'm sure, has heard all these stories. Uh, being at ndc um, joey was the only division. Two all-time undefeated national, four-time national champion ever. Joey davis, I think his last year went up two divisions from his weight and won the national championship. Now, sure was that athletic ability. Yeah, for sure Was that more being mentally and physically tough. You know absolutely. But to Matt's point on this, if you want to go see some guys who are big, strong, fast, go watch division one wrestlers, um, go at it. Even the guys who, who aren't the best, who aren't the Cal Sanderson's of the world of, aren't the Kurt Angles, go watch. Even the guy who's the backup hundred, you know 89 pound, you know wrestler. Those guys will take your head off um, every day of the week and twice on Sundays. So, uh, yeah, if you want to go see something impressive, definitely go see some college wrestlers. Which brings me into this studio wrestling. For people who may say what is studio wrestling? Well, it's WWE, formerly known as WWF, and WCW.
Speaker 1:People knock a lot of these athletes who have done this. Now, we've seen and all of us are different ages and we've seen this over the years A lot of pro athletes go into wrestling later on. You've had on Kurt Angle, right. You had on the rock who played, you know, college football, and in the CFL um, mongo McMichael, who was the starting D tackle for the 85 bears, you know. You've seen the Paulul um, the older paul brother, logan paul with the boxing crossover. You've seen rob gronkowski a lot of different guys, right.
Speaker 1:But people want to knock these wrestlers and say they're unathletic to me. And I'm going to start this one off. I think people are wrong when they say that, because these men and women are some of the biggest, strongest human beings in all of sports. You go back to Andre the Giant 7'4" 500 pounds could lift a car off the ground, and that's not a story, that's a fact. People have seen him do it, you know. You look at someone like Hulk Hogan, who was, you know 6'8", 300 pounds. You know Thunder Lips and Rocky III. You know it was just a physical specimen. Though you have these big, strong, huge human beings contorting their bodies crazy ways. You know jumping off, um, you know table, or jumping on the tables hitting each other with chairs and stuff's. To me, you know very, very athletic. There ain't a lot of people who could do that stuff, but matt, in your opinion. You've probably seen pro wrestling the longest here. You know what's your take on these studio wrestlers and their athletic ability.
Speaker 2:I think they're unreal athletes. And you know this is right in my wheelhouse I love wrestling, all things. You know grew up after school with the AWA on early days, espn, the NWA on weekends on TBS and then WWF all mixed through and I think a lot of people that knock the athleticism on wrestling are maybe a little bit young, because that was kind of by design. Vince McMahon kind of wanted to take some athleticism out of wrestling and make the guys as big and as strong and as stiff and you know throwing guys around as possible. And you know, you look at and it's going on 30 years ago.
Speaker 2:But you know, you look at ECW. That was around about 30 years, 25, 30 years ago, where they were allowed to showcase. You know their athleticism and it was amazing and even still to this day, you know, starting about probably for the last 40 years. If you really want to see athleticism on display, look at New Japan Pro Wrestling and JPW. That is amazing to see the athleticism that they display on that. So I will sing the praises of professional wrestlers being freak athletes all day long.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, mike, what are you saying on this?
Speaker 4:All right. So from an entertainment perspective, I never was into pro wrestling studio wrestling I didn't get it. And from an entertainment value piece like that show, it's not for me right as athletes. I have a former athlete of mine from William Mary, troy Yearwood. He goes by Jamar Hampton now for WWE.
Speaker 4:Next, he is by far the craziest athlete I've ever seen, by far. I've seen him on his Instagram. He has all of his gym stuff Seated to 60-inch vertical box jump. I think he got an official 46-inch standing vertical test. I've seen him do snatch grip deadlifts with over 500 pounds for sets of six and above. When he does pull-ups he pulls his hips to the bar. He weighs nothing and he's now in pro wrestling.
Speaker 4:Right, I would watch him for the entertainment value of that is the most athletic human I've ever seen in my life. He did a NFL combine test at William and Mary. He was a thrower there. He wasn't. He wasn't a football player and he would have been in the top 5% of these combine tests just because his 40-yard dash was super quick. I don't have it off the top of my head but I know he jumped like 12'6 in standing. Broad jump, the standing vertical in college. Broad jump. The standing vertical in college was 42. When he went to grad school it was 46. I mean, the man is the most athletic person I've ever seen and he has always been just jacked, ripped to the gills. He looks the part, he fits the WWE. He's an insane athlete and I guess all of them are like that okay, tj.
Speaker 1:What are you saying about this?
Speaker 3:yeah, I grew up a huge wrestling fan, so this is, uh, this is easy for me, um, and summer slams on tonight for a night too. So, um, for wwe. But again, you look at how many, especially you know matt was talking about back in, you know, 70s, 80s, 90s a lot of people try to transition from other professional sports into professional wrestling and failed miserably, you know, and they tried and they said that they just couldn't keep up with what was going on. But it also showed you kind of brought up Kurt Angle, a guy that took that and transition from amateur wrestling to professional wrestling and did it so well. People try to follow him and still couldn't keep up the way that Kurt Angle did it.
Speaker 3:But, um, you know, there there is the entertainment value of it, there's the show business side of it, there's the hey. We want to, you know, make people feel the emotion that they're trying to go through. But they still got to be able to protect themselves, they still got to be able to put on, um, you know, a conflict. They have to make it look like a conflict, make it look like a fight and still be able to perform all the things they need to perform. They describe them as live action stuntmen. They don't get a second take, they don't get to go back. Oh, I fell on my head, let me go and get the crash pad. We got the crash pad, do it again. They don't have that. So that's where the athleticism really speaks to them.
Speaker 3:And as you're going through the names you're listing, I'm thinking of the two that transitioned from amateur wrestling. So Bobby Lashley was one and he went into combat wrestling and did a great job doing combat wrestling and he went into professional wrestling. He still great job doing combat wrestling and he went into professional wrestling. He still said professional wrestling is harder than the combat sport, just being able to do that. And then Brock Lesnar when you look at his, he said he did, obviously, he did amateur wrestling at an extremely high level in Minnesota, did a great job.
Speaker 3:And then he said I'll go try to play football, didn't make it out of spring training, um, and he, he as much as he said uh, you know, football was harder than professional wrestling. It just shows that that's the type of athlete professional wrestling can produce, um, at times. So, uh, yeah, these guys I mean, and the cool thing about professional wrestling big, small men, women they're able to go and do it. But it does take a special athlete, because not anybody can just go and say, oh, I want to do this for fun, let me go do it, because you end up getting hurt, you end up doing damage to yourself. So, yeah, no, I got a lot of respect for them. And again, just like every sport, if you're a professional in any sport that you do, you are at the top of the game in that, in that field.
Speaker 1:Sure, one name I'm going to throw out there for everybody to check out, because he was a college wrestler. He was in WCW for a while, I believe, with Ric Flair, um, and then he went into the original, the original UFC Dan the beast Severn. So watch Dan the beast Severn's MMA fights when he would and he was a and he was a wrestler and he would just grab people and he would just start body slamming them on their head and those guys were out cold. But he did the original UFC when it was a lot tougher WCW and college wrestling.
Speaker 1:So two questions left for you guys, and we're talking about some of the greatest athletes of all time. Now this is a simple yes or no question. When you're talking greatest athletes ever not NBA players greatest athletes ever, is LeBron James a top 10 greatest athlete in the history of sports? Matt, yes, okay. Mike, yes, okay. Tj of sports matt, yes, okay. Mike, yes, hey. Tj, yes, I have to. Okay, okay, I was really curious on that. Um, you know, because when you really start thinking about it, right, great nba player, but then you guys start thinking we'll leave it on this cliffhanger. Is he more accomplished than Will Chamberlain? Is he more accomplished as an athlete than Wayne Gretzky? Could he do what Wayne Gretzky did? Could he do what Mike Tyson did? Could he do what Jerry Rice did? You know, could he do what Michael Phelps did? You know you got to think about those things too. Could he do what Michael Phelps did? You know you got to think about those things too, but I, you know he's arguably there. All right, final question, and I'm going to let you guys think about this, I'm going to name mine and my reasons behind it. Who are your top two athletes of all time, regardless of generation and sport ever. And I'll give you my two right here. We'll see if Coach Larkin appreciates this first one.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go with the legend, jim Thorpe, the only man in sports history to win the decathlon and the pentathlon in the 1912 Olympics with two different shoes on during that time. Two different shoes, not the same shoes, two different shoes. He was also a professional ballroom dancer. He was also a professional baseball player, professional football player. He also was the first commissioner of the NFL. So I actually got a chance to visit Jim Thorpe, pennsylvania, the old Mauchunk town, got a chance to visit Jim Thorpe, see his memorial out there and the history behind him Arguably greatest athlete ever.
Speaker 1:I don't think anyone could ever do what he did. Even if you take the other sports out of there, there's no way the average person can become a national champion competitor in ballroom dancing as well. You want to talk about hard? Go, try to do that. My second greatest athlete ever is definitely Wilt Chamberlain. What he did later on in life as an athlete was probably more impressive than what he did as an NBA player. To be a professional indoor volleyball, the marathon running, the weightlifting. To do that post your retirement in the NBA is unbelievable, matt. Who are your top two greatest athletes of all time?
Speaker 2:I immediately, when you asked the question, immediately jumped to Jim Brown um, just with the eye test, as well as lacrosse and the NFL. Um, and my second one, even though he's not nearly as decorated as probably all the guys that you're you guys are going to mention or whatever else. It's just, once again, it's the eye test and you know um, olympic bobsled team uh, sprinter, hurdler, uh, just a freak athlete, uh, probably that I've seen in person. Herschel Walker Probably could have won the Heisman as an 18-year-old if they allowed him to. Just the best. If you're talking pure athlete that I've seen with my own eyes in my lifetime, it's probably him.
Speaker 1:Okay, and people forget Herschel Walker got into MMA in his late 40s and early 50s as well. He was doing that. So those are really good ones, Matt. Those are really really good ones, Mike. What are you saying here?
Speaker 4:To not negate anything that anybody else has said, but also to not repeat One I'm going to throw out. That's just real off the walls and probably won't get mentioned on this podcast. Real off the walls and probably won't get mentioned on this podcast Very often in general is Eddie Merckx, port-au-france winner, I believe five times back, king of the Mountains yellow jersey and the green jersey, so sprint jerseys, and he would have won the youngest rider jerseys as well. He was dominant for two decades on the bike and so I think he's the Wayne Gretzky of cycling where it's kind of like, yeah, it's him and nobody else, and even Lance, I think, would admit that, and then I don't think anybody has or not very many people who know cycling very well put Lance above Eddie merckx, which is seven time uh, toward franz way, um, and then another kind of curveball. But who's kind of?
Speaker 4:You know, really writing her name in the history books right now is katie ledecky. I mean, she has what? The top 30-something times ever in the 800 free. It's her, then her 30 times and then somebody else. So it's like you know, are those the two greatest athletes of all time? They're certainly the most dominant um in their own sport. Um, does that translate to other sports? I don't know, but I wanted to put out those names. Not to. That's a step on the other toes, but those two pop into my head is like pure dominance in their, in their, in their niche.
Speaker 1:Sure, no, I mean, that was great. And you know what I thought we wanted to do this show? Because we wanted to talk to people who really maybe don't know the NHL, who maybe don't know Michael Phelps in the Olympic sports, who maybe don't remember Will Chamberlain or Herschel Walker, know much about cycling, maybe don't know anything about studio wrestling. You know, we want to inform people a lot about this because there's so many great athletes and just because we pick two, it doesn't mean they're better than anybody else, just our opinion. We're just ranting on Ryan Home rants about it, right, so you know, we're just kind of giving it. So, no, thank you for pointing those out, because a lot of people who don't know cycling want to know that. I could never name another cycler behind Lance Armstrong, and now I feel more informed about it.
Speaker 3:So, um, TJ, who are your top two of all time. I'm a victim of my age here. Um, so my number one, I was always been told my whole life Bo Jackson, right it just you try to think about the stories that everybody's told about, uh, you know, oh, they they did. Everybody's told about. You know, oh, they did. The laser, you know he ran a 40 yard dash and the laser had him at, you know, 413. But the handhelds had him at like 397.
Speaker 3:And they had to open the door in the back of the gym because he wasn't going to be able to stop because he was running that fast and just the people that played against him, and then to be able to go and just kind of Play baseball. You know, yeah, I was OK baseball. You know, I was just an all star, it's fine. So just those things are what, just what I've been told growing up. So I kind of, you know, I bought into it and I, you know, I read about it and it just he had me convinced.
Speaker 3:I did hear about Jim Thorpe, which was an amazing story, and obviously the movie about him and everything which was. You know, we only get the tip of the iceberg. Obviously, we never saw him compete. So. But my second one is Jackie Robinson. So Jackie Robinson, throughout college he was, he was a four sport varsity All-American. So just to think about I playing one sport was hard enough, but to be able to go and be four, so he did football, basketball, baseball and track and field and he was an all-american in all of them. And then he said I guess I gotta go join the army, you know. So he left and joined the service and then came back and was still able to do the things that he was able to do for baseball, you know, obviously, as a baseball player. But, um, when you talk about greatest athletes, I think that you talk about the athleticism, but the impact too, and his impact obviously is everlasting. So, uh, that plays a role for me too sure?
Speaker 1:no, those are all great points all three of you guys um you made, and thank you so much for coming on this episode. I think this was a lot of fun, uh, hearing from guys who played college sports, who have coached high school and college sports, who, like history, you know, are very well rounded in the sports realm. I think this was a lot of fun and very informative for people as well. Um, you know, mike Matt TJ, thank you so much for being on and thank you for everyone for tuning in. Make sure you go ahead and download the episode and check out all these guys on our previous episodes, on their individual episodes that they've been on or the other roundtables that they've been on previously too. So, on behalf of Ride Home Rants, this is Vinny signing off and we will see you next week.
