Andrew Beal - The Legacy Project with Jim Copple

In this episode of The Legacy Project with Jim Copple, retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Andrew Beal joins us for a powerful and timely conversation.

From serving five combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan to reflecting on leadership, civility, and the future of democracy, Andrew shares lessons learned on the battlefield and in life.

We also explore one of the most pressing issues of our time: the rise of political violence in America. In light of the recent assassination of Charlie Kirk, this episode challenges us to ask: Can America return to civility, courtesy, and genuine dialogue across our divides?

Jim and Andrew’s friendship is proof that people with different experiences and political beliefs can still break bread, share values, and shape a better legacy together.

This isn’t just a podcast about history—it’s about the legacy we choose to leave for our families, communities, and nation.

The Legacy Project is a series of conversations that focuses on legacy, the one we inherit and the one we can create. It is value based and not material based. We interview a wide range of individuals who reflect on key influencers in their lives.

Please subscribe to our podcast to hear future episodes. Please also consider leaving us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts. You can learn more on our Facebook Page.

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Transcript

It has been said that Tyler Robinson, the 22-year-old suspect in the assassination of Charlie Kirk, had, and I quote, hate in his heart toward Kirk. Somehow, this hate turned into violence at a moment when Kirk was in an open meeting with about 3,000 students at Utah Valley University in Oram, Utah. Kirk was in a debate with students around the issue of mass shootings. Beyond the tragedy of a public murder of a political operative who was a husband and a father, the irony was that this was a debate. The shooter saw that his only recourse to Kirk's ideas was to kill him. The assassination put into relief that we have lost as a nation our capacity for courtesy, civility, and empathy. Today's podcast is with a good friend of mine, Andrew Beal, retired Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Army with three tours in Iraq and two tours in Afghanistan. We have known each other for 2 years. Our legacies are quite different. He is an Army veteran of five tours in war zones and me, a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War. He blames Obama for the sun rising in the east. And I worked for President Obama. Our differences are many. But on my various trips to New York, I make it a point to share a meal with Andrew and his family. And we laugh, we talk, we discuss, we even debate a little and learn from each other. Breaking bread is a good place to remember and to celebrate. Elorurbusum from many come one. Andrew said to me today, "We are at an inflection point when it comes to political violence in this country, but inflections require reflection. It is time we begin to reflect." Welcome to the Legacy Project. Now, this podcast is really about capturing people's past and their history, the things that have shaped and influenced them, and then also the legacy that we want to create. And all of us have that decision or that choice. This is a conversation beyond the boats, the houses, and the wealth that we might inherit. Uh, but it really is focusing on the values, the things that have helped shape our character. Today, our guest is, uh, retired Lieutenant Colonel Andrew Beal, uh, from upstate New York. Uh, exactly where do you identify living, Drew? Andrew, where is that at? So, we uh currently live in Half Moon, New York, and I'm originally from Westport, New York. Westport, New York. I first met Drew, in fact, at a Memorial Day event where Drew was speaking uh as a veteran. Drew Andrew served three tours in Iraq and two tours in Afghanistan. And we'll talk some about that and how that has shaped and influenced his life. Uh but, um we're really glad to have you a part of the podcast and part of this conversation. Andrew, appreciate it. Well, Jim, I'm honored to be here and thank you for asking me. Sure. So, Andrew, you're from Westport, New York. Um, growing up, who were the major influences in your life who helped shape or define who you are and what you do? I would say the two biggest were my two grandfathers. Um, both uh part of the greatest generation. Um my uh paternal grandfather served six years in the Navy from 1940 to 1946 on diesel submarines. He was a deck gunner. U never uh spoke about any of his war experiences. Very quiet about that. Uh did speak about his time in the Navy, but mostly in terms of partying and gambling. Um but uh uh he was on the uh SS Ray uh which had a pretty uh storied past that he never shared with me. Um and he was he was on every patrol that they did. And then he got out of the Navy, uh, met my grandmother and became a forester, ran a sawmill, uh, for about 30 years. Uh, retired and when I was young, he was, uh, just retiring. So, uh, he was lived in my hometown. And then my grandfather who was the my my maternal grandfather, he was the town supervisor. Uh he was a town mayor before that. Um and then um he also owned the marina in town. Got to spend a tremendous amount of time with them as they were winding down their careers uh almost on a near daily basis. Um and each one of them taught me different things. more practical things than my father had time for because he was the local town dentist. Westport only had about 900 people in it. So very um small town but um you know each one of them imparted different skills but they also uh imparted different values. And I'll just give a couple different examples. one, my um my paternal grandfather um really taught me a lot about how to be a man, how to conduct yourself. Um and one of the biggest lessons that he ever told me was uh the smartest man in any room speaks the least and listens the most. Um and I really tried to use that in my development and particularly um you know being able to uh read people and you know find their motivations, find what's important to them and then use that to build a better relationship or better organization or whatever you're doing. And then my other grandfather was much more of a religious man and he imparted the importance and um of Christianity and you know coming to Jesus and how important um a faith centered life is. Um and although you know we are all sinners I am I am a fantastic sinner. Uh, I try to get a little better every day. I find it interesting, Andrew, that you uh you had a grandfather that was in the Navy and another grandfather owned in a marina, but you joined the army. Yep. Um, no, I we've had um a family member in every war going back forever. Uh, except for I think Vietnam. Yeah. So um but all all services represented except for uh the air force. Yeah. I discovered in my genealogy or of the legacy that I've inherited that there was a couple in every war since the French and Indian War of 1755. And uh part of our tradition I it's interesting uh I heard a quote this last week that if you're the smartest person in the room, you should probably leave. Right. Yeah. What influenced your decision to join the military? Money. Money. Um yeah. Well, originally I was going to go into the army in high school. I never intended to go to college. Um, I was gonna go to um I was going going to go in the army on an 11 Bravo Airborne Ranger contract and my mother had an absolute meltdown um at the dining room table with the recruiter present. uh as we were about to sign the paperwork for that. Um so I did not do that. So I went to college. Um my parents had a financial downturn and they said, "Okay, you need to come home." I was down I was going to college in North Carolina and I was having a very good time down there and I was doing well in school. So, I uh went to a I was just in the student union. There was an Army ROC uh recruiting table there. I walked up to captain in charge of the recruiting event. Told him my GPA, which was very high. Told him that I was um you know, a three sport varsity athlete in high school. and he's, you know, practically fell over himself, you know, trying to give me money and they did. So, um, that's how I got in and then, um, commissioned in 98 um, as an artilleryman and then, um, 911 happened and that's probably why I stayed. So you did five tours uh between Iraq and Afghanistan. Uh what was your role in that? I I assume you had various roles. Various roles. So um I was a baby captain um in OF1 part of the first armor division. Uh 11 CAV was our division cavalry squadron and um I was the squadron fire support officer. Now by the time um you know I got to one calf I joined them a few months after the initial invasion. um we were no longer in a full combat role. They by October of 03, uh, you really have the the situation was devolving into a uh an insurgency, counterinsurgency type operations with myriad factions uh forming largely based on um the Sunni, Shia a sectarian divide, but both were, you know, opposing the coalition um that was there. Mhm. So, um that was um that was a tough one um because we weren't trained for counterinsurgency. We were trained for major combat operations and we were excellent at it. Um but that skill set, you know, we were learning on the fly. Uh the the counterinsurgency skill saw. Um and it was was a very steep learning curve. Um I got hit with a couple IEDs in that tour. Um and um We were dramatically under equipped for a counterinsurgency operation. Um we were, you know, rolling around in Humvees, unarmored Humvees with no canvas or doors on. So it was um it was definitely um a steep learning curve there. My next um tour was also in Iraq again back to Baghdad. Uh that one um was a steep learning curve for me because two our our battalion S3 and uh our battalion XO who are both um majors, field grade officers. I'm a junior captain. I haven't I haven't even commanded yet. um were pulled by Sentcom, which is uh the the fourstar level command that oversees all of the Middle East. Um and I was as a as a junior captain, I was made the battalion operations officer. So, um that was another steep learning curve there. And then my third tour uh was a short one that was uh a good but challenging assignment. One thing I will remark about that is um there was an absolute radical shift from probably February of '09, right after President Obama came into office in terms of focus, right? Um, and really constraints like we had under the Bush administration, we had been relatively unconstrained in terms of ROE. Mhm. Um I mean it wasn't a it wasn't a free-for-all like it was in 0304, but um the the tone and tenor of um and frankly just the absolute uh deficit of trust that the Obama administration had in the military was immediately self-evident. M by the time I got to my fourth deployment in that was in Afghanistan, it was it was worse because this is after this is post um what the um Obama administration has regard as a betrayal of the military. And you see by 2011 just an absolute shift away from uh the counterinsurgency fight and really a a a dedicated shift towards um getting out of Afghanistan. And that is what I did in my fifth tour. Even though um you know I I ne that last tour I I never fired a shot in anger. I never told anybody to fire a shot in anger. Um you know was only the recipient of a few rockets. by far the most stressful uh deployment I ever did because of um the intrigence and um gatekeeping that all of the actors around President Obama did relative to the Afghan policy. And I learned a lot about um what goes on at the national level in terms of you know where policy becomes strategy becomes operationalized and uh I had very several very hard lessons learned in that. My point was if you guys don't give us an end state what we're working at the the probability of us being successful in any of this if we don't know where we're going right um and what you want to achieve we can't we're never going to give it to you right And I would talk to them in terms of strategic risk, operational risk, and tactical risk. And um you know, the the person that I was talking with was like, well, that's a very naive um way to look at this. And I was like, naive? Really? Okay. Well, and they said, "Well, you're not considering the political risk because if we define an end state for you and you don't achieve it, we could lose, you know, we could lose a Senate seat here. We could lose uh a presidential election there. You know, you're not thinking in terms of the political um ramifications of what you're asking." And I um I would my eyes were were very widely opened by that, but also kind of you know um dramatically increased my cynicism. And um you know maybe maybe an increase in citizen was just a different way of saying it made me grow up um to the realities of how uh DC functions. We're talking with uh retired Lieutenant Colonel Andrew Beal U from Halfoon, New York. And uh just recapping his military career. Uh Andrew, in terms of leadership, uh obviously you were thrown into positions of leadership and uh graduating as an officer from ROC. Uh what are the core principles or values of leadership that you've learned out of the out of your military experience or other experiences for that matter? Trust. Trust. Um if you're going to be an effective leader, you're whoever you're leading has to trust. M um so this is easiest to explain at kind of the company grade junior officer level. So like one they have to have trust in your confidence, right? You have to know what you're doing. You have to be the expert of um everything technical and tactical. You've got to be physically fit. you know, you if not the most physically fit, you've got to be, you know, the top 5% in your organization. You've got to be able to, uh, you know, use the weapons that your lowest enlisted members do as well as they do, uh, if not better. And you've got to be able to have, you know, you're not going to have the experience, but because, you know, you're a 22 or 23 year old person and you're um platoon sergeant is, you know, maybe 34, 35 years old and been doing this for 14 or 15 years. um you're not going to have the experience, but you got to be there and at least be on par with the book knowledge um in order to have a semiredible voice in the room. Um that's the first thing. Um that's like the baseline for entry into the trust uh building relationship. your technical, tactical, and physical competencies um in front of your formation. Two is you can't ever lie, right? And you can't even uh it is it is incredibly better to tell your soldiers um or whoever you're leading an exceptionally hard truth than it is to try and sugarcoat or gaslight them whatsoever because they will see through it in an absolute instant. Um and then the third thing is you have to trust them first. Um in any trust relationship, I think it's really important that whoever is in charge, whoever is the leader, they've got to trust their lead first because otherwise it there's no there's no flow, right? that that that trust is a thing that's got to go both ways and you as the leader have the responsibility to trust them first. That's a those are powerful words and important words I think for leaders in any position and any role or responsibility. Um, let me ask you this. And to those who are listening on this podcast, um, Andrew and I have known each other a little over a year, two years almost, or a year and a half. And, um, I was warned when I met Andrew that he and I would probably not agree on much. I was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War. Uh, and though I came from a family steeped in what I would call the military class with a couple serving in every war since the French and Indian War in 1755. My father was a veteran and an older brother that served in Vietnam. Um, and um I worked for President Obama. Um, I did different roles and responsibilities. What makes it possible, Andrew, in this country for you and I to be friends? Even though politically we might differ on a whole host of subjects, but what makes it possible, especially this questions in light of what's happened this week with the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the political divide that exists in this country and the violence that seems to accompany it. But what makes it possible for you and I to be friends? Well, I think that the biggest advantage that we have is that we're old. We're older, right? Yeah. Um, you know, I can we have monetized righteous indignation um through social media, through legacy media, you know, we we have um really found a way to profit on making people feel like, "Oh, I knew I was right. I told you so." um you know I'm my position is validated and your position is invalidated. Um and I think that that change in the information environment and now that everybody can uh you know kind of go out there and scroll through and cherrypick the internet to find their truth uh instead of the truth. um is how we've gotten to this point. Now, that's the the description. The prescription for how we get back to where we were is very very difficult because we've got to do a myriad number of things. But I think the first thing is it's very simple. We got to be polite to each other again. Yeah. you know, just basic courtesy. I don't have to um and I think one of the things that really ripped that down was when we started talking about everybody deserves respect. No, absolutely not. Respect is earned. Mhm. Everybody deserves your courtesy as a, you know, just a normal member of civilization. We've got to earn each other's respect. And that first step to that is being courteous, having the ability to sit down and have a conversation with somebody that you may vehemently disagree with. But if we can't get past the that barrier to entry of, you know, I'm going to scream at you at all caps on Twitter level of, you know, kind of pedantic, you know, seven-year-old behavior. Um we're never going to get to the meaningful conversations where um you know we we rail our facts against the other side's facts and together we both come out with a better understanding for having done that. I think that the temperature of the discourse in the country has negated our ability to have a a dialectical engagement. Mhm. And until we get back there, it's only th this gulf, this divide is only going to deepen and widen because people on the polar extremes are the ones that are being rewarded um with the most clicks, the most likes. You know, they're driving all the dopamine hits. um the these terrible terrible horrific devices that we're all slaves to. Now, I love what you're saying and I think uh that's an important piece. Um it's not just simply uh and this is a question as much as it is a statement um that uh when you and I are together usually every other month or so and we have dinner together our families come together it's not that we avoid a topic it's that the issue of I so respect you and your service and your your education, your family values. I see it evidenced in so many different ways that um that we could talk about difficult subjects but uh not personalize it in such a way that well gee I I'm not going to invite you to Thanksgiving dinner uh because I'm afraid of the topic. I mean, I think there's a fear uh operating in the broader culture that I just don't want to bring up difficult topics that if I if we're going to disagree, then we just don't talk about it. Right. And uh which is I think a fundamental threat to democracy. Yes. Yeah. And I think the other piece of that is, you know, the first amendment was the first amendment for a reason. Um, and we talk about the rights that we have under the first amendment. We talk way too little about the responsibilities that we have associated with all of our rights. M so ideas um thoughts expressions are far more powerful than any weapon that we could ever manufacture. Um and we never talk about the responsibilities that are inherent to those first amendment rights uh rights of association, religion, speech, the press. Um we just we only want we only want the um you know kind of the candy ele of it. Mhm. I can say whatever I want whenever. Well, yes, you can. But, you know, there is also a responsibility as a um you know, as a grown man in society or a grown woman in society to use those words with care, to use those words to um maximum effect. And if and if the only thing you're going for is to, you know, just the be this bombastic piece of clickbait, um then you're you're not living up to the responsibilities of of your First Amendment rights. Yeah. And it's interesting that um uh we're working on this project uh for the 250th anniversary of the celebration of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. and uh been doing a lot of reading and reflecting on the environment and the ideas that circulated that generated the Declaration of Independence and then a few years later obviously the Constitution creating a more perfect union recognizing that where we were was not perfect and I've been reminded several times that the Declaration of Independence and the you know that the unalienable rights that we have of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And the concept of pursuit of happiness isn't that you feel good, it's that you do good. And in doing good, you are going to experience happiness. And it was more of a classical Greek idea of what it meant and also coupled with frankly the Bible in terms of how we understand doing good. And even though the Declaration of Independence, as I've been reminded by several groups, uh, uh, was not for everybody. It was not for women, it was not for Indians, it was not for, uh, the slaves. Um, it becomes that over the 250 year history. Um, and I'm I'm wondering your thinking um given the fact that you have committed your life to serving the country and protecting those rights u what you find in the constitution and also what we struggle for in the revolution uh to achieve uh for people to pursue life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. uh what do we need to do from your perspective today uh in order to uh protect those rights for everybody? Uh and I love what you said in terms of conflict, in terms of courtesy, you earn respect, etc. But uh there are a lot of people both on the right and the left who talk about democracy is currently threatened. And it seems to be the threat is that we simply can't talk to each other at one that's one of the major threats. There are others of course, but uh that is one that really concerns me that um a Charlie Kirk can come to Utah where I live and um while I would not agree with maybe 5% of what Charlie Kirk ever says, uh but I have to respect the fact that he went into tough places to have a conversation and was willing to debate and engage um and um and to listen and both sides engage to to to where they were listening. It's sort of recovering the William F.Buckley Buckley era of the 1960s where Buckley would take on any challenge. He wanted to have a debate and ideas being debated is what creates that dialectic which evolves into uh certain truths by which you live and values by which you live. So I'm wondering your thinking in terms of today's culture uh and I think your assessment in terms of the role of social media is important but how do we preserve life liberty and the pursuit of happiness uh for all people? Well I think in you know even the founders recognized that this was going to be a finely running thing and it was going to be fragile. Um and so far it's you know stood the test of time but there's two things that we have to have is a overwhelming supermajority of the citizenry and that is both moral and religious people. Um, and I think you're seeing a faith renaissance right now, particularly in um, not the millennials, but the Gen Z uh, generation is coming back to church. Even if their parents, the young boomers and the uh, Gen Xers didn't go to church, they are returning to church without their parents. And I think that's very, very important. And it's not just church, it's synagogue, it's you know what, what have you. The ultimately it gets down to a belief in there is a truth. And I think the reason that that is important is you know we might not be able to discreetly measure it or define it but the belief in an absolute truth. You know there is a truth out there. there is definitions for um what is moral and what is amoral. Mhm. Um, you've got whether wherever that belief window comes from in in your mind in order for us to get back to some semblance of um, you know, training each other, you know, well, yeah, civility. Civility. Exactly. You know, you've got to have that as a foundational underpinning. The other thing I would say is um we've got to find a way to do better by our kids, right? We've got to impart those truths into our children. And for a long time, I think we have not not the Star Wars character, but um there was a book by uh Dr. Spock on child wearing that was very very popular. And you you may disagree with me. I think that did kind of uh immeasurable harm out of the intent to do tremendous good, right? I understand that. Yeah. You know, we probably got 30 years of kids that grew up under that mindset and we've got to claw that back. We got to get back to a place where we instill some form of discipline into our children. And you know, I am I am I have a very libertarian venture, right? But I would almost welcome like I would rather, you know, kids start driving at 12 and they can't get their first cell phone until they're 16. Yeah. Um, I would much rather uh go for that than um, you know, where we're at now. Well, you alluded to it earlier. Uh, there doesn't seem to be much room for accountability and uh, in terms of the issue of responsibility and u how you exercise that. Let me ask you this and uh, we only have a few more minutes but I want to um, ask you this question. What is the legacy you want to leave behind? The legacy that in terms of the footprint that you create not only in your family but in the world in which you live and work. Um when it's uh I mean Steven CVY wrote the book seven habits of highly effective people and the second habit he talks about living with the end in mind and he takes you through this exercise of attending uh your funeral today. what would people say? And then he asks you, what would you 10 years from now, if your funeral were to take place, what would you want people to say? What is the legacy uh that Andrew Beal wants to leave? I would say the most important thing is um strong kids to have strong families. To have strong what? To have strong families themselves. Families. Yeah. Mhm. you know, the whole the whole purpose of humanity is to have family, you know, um that. So, for any legacy to be meaningful, I think you've got to have um that as your top top menu item on any any legacy list. The other thing I would like to do, um, we're still in the process of pulling this together, but I would like to, um, do more to help vets, particularly combat vets, a buddy of mine, um, that we that I served with, we're we're trying to put, uh, an organization together for the Capitol District of New York. Right now we're trying to do it through the government. And turns out that that is a uh let's just say they're it's a very deliberate and slowmoving process, right? Um you know, and and he and I are both, you know, kind of hey, let's just let's just, you know, have a bias for action. get out there and, you know, start helping these people. Um, and there there's definitely a process and the process is king. Um, so we're working through that. If that doesn't work out, we're going to go and um we're going to form a private organization um and and go forward with that. Um the other thing that I aspire to is uh local office. So I think um politics and power is best situated when it's proximal to its delivery. So that's a you know I've thought a lot about that but that is basically saying your most important government is your local government local government right? you know, we all get super animated about these national um political problems and challenges and stuff like that because um it basically has devolved into modern political theater, right? But what really matters to you is, you know, do I feel safe in my own neighborhood? Do I have running water? Do I have, you know, a good school system? Do I have, you know, am I can I flourish where I'm at? Yeah. Um, and I want I want to do that. I want to do that in my hometown of Westport. Um, and I'm working uh quickly to get back there uh so I can make that happen. Um, that's a good point. And then um probably the last thing is, you know, and and with my my career path, um you know, of helping veterans and being a small town politician that probably makes less than $20,000 a year. Um I I I would like to take on some philanthropic pursuits um that really enhance and um build out first starting with my hometown. Um but you know that'll be done on the back of my organizing and um you know kind of uh development abilities rather than my own checkbook. Yeah. Well, um let me ask you one more question. Um the events of this past week with the assassination of Charlie Kirk, uh I've heard several politicians say this could and maybe should be a watershed moment where we realize that the political violence that has been a part of our country's history and particularly most noticeable since um these shootings become televised from John Kennedy forward. I worry that uh it's going to be the news lead for the next week and then it just disappears. Um do you think there's a mood in the country to get back to civility? uh or will this assassination be a catalyst for a discussion around the need to to return to civility or will it just be uh a news item for a week and then we go on? I I think that um well first off let me say I it's my extreme hope that this is an inflection point but within society inflection requires reflection and we have basically taken that ability away from ourselves in the way that um we consume information. Now, um my my my fear is that this, you know, 10 days from now, we're not even this isn't going to be a thing anymore. political violence will will have moved out of the news cycle and we'll be on to the next crisis, whatever that might be. Um, I think unfortunately America has always had a history of political violence. Um, and it gets back to that responsibility thing. You know, it it takes a moral and religious people to wield these massive and powerful rights. Um, and the first and most important of those is the right of free speech. And we've we've got to bring civility back to our discourse. And one of the things that I really liked about Charlie Kirk was he was never rude. Yeah. You know, he might be forceful in making a point. Yeah. But he never degraded or defameed uh the people that he was debating, right? Um, and if we can just get to that baseline level of civility in our discourse, I think that um, that will be a win. Yeah. So, in terms of legacy, if that is Charlie Kirk's legacy, we all owe him great. Yeah. Andrew, thank you. We've been talking with Andrew Beal, retired Lieutenant Colonel, um, friend and colleague. Uh, we appreciate the time you've taken to be with us on the legacy project. And to our audience, just a reminder that uh, you have an opportunity to shape and define your legacy, the legacy that you're going to leave behind. Thank you. To find out more information about this conversation and other Legacy podcast episodes, go to servantforge.org. Please subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and consider leaving us a review. The podcast was produced by Matt Erickson. Music by David Hyde. Please look for a new episode on our podcast coming out soon. Remember, you have inherited a great legacy. You have an opportunity to create a great legacy. Engage your past to build your future.