In which I talk with Rebecca Reid, one of a small group of volunteers in and around Pittsburgh trying to get help for some foxes suffering from mange.
In which I talk with Rebecca Reid, one of a small group of volunteers in and around Pittsburgh trying to get help for some foxes suffering from mange.
Welcome to Pittsburgh Tails, a podcast about the creatures of Western Pennsylvania and the people who care for and about them. I'm your host, Mitch Bernard. Today I'd like to share a conversation with you that I had with Rebecca Reid, one of a small group of volunteers who are working to get care for some foxes suffering from mange. She shared some of her challenges, answered lots of questions, and suggested some ways you can help. Enjoy.
Unknown:Please tell me about how you got started in wildlife and how you found out about this Fox project how you got involved in it. Okay, well, I've
Rebecca Reid:been involved as a volunteer in wildlife rehab for about 12 years, and about 10 of those with the Wildlife Center in Verona. And one of the things that had struck me when I was volunteering, there was the fact that people would call constantly about animal issue, wildlife issues, and the Wildlife Center staff would be obligated to say, we'll be happy to treat the animal, but you'll have to bring it in. So they have no ability to send people out to capture these animals. And sometimes you're talking about sometimes fairly dangerous animals. So you have to, you know, you can't just tell the public Oh, just go out and catch that great horned owl or whatever. Right. So the way it works, though, is that for a Wildlife Center, to dispatch somebody to get injured wildlife, that volunteer has to have a Game Commission capture permit. And so myself and some other volunteers got that permit. And, um, we then joined a new group called wildlife in need. So I am actually with two groups. I'm with the Wildlife Center and also with wildlife in need. Now wildlife in need is another nonprofit, but it is specifically focused on the capture and transport of injured wildlife. So as I've been working with them, which has been probably about four years now, obviously, people tell me either I'll get dispatched by wildlife in need or by the Wildlife Center or people that I know will end up telling me about situations. So that is what brings us to the foxes I was told originally about. around August of last year, we started to hear about foxes in Homewood cemetery that might possibly have Meech, um, and one volunteer did go down there to check out one letter and didn't see any signs of means at the time. But I went back there in September and just walked around for a while and I did eventually come across a mange Fox. Um, I don't know how many people are familiar with what means does to an animal. Most people don't really see a bad a bad case of means, but it's caused by a mite. And the type of means that foxes usually get is sarcoptic mange, um, which is actually highly treatable. Once you have the animal. It's very, very simple to treat. But the problem is, especially with foxes is capturing them in the first place. And in the meantime, what will happen is they might bury under their skin, and cause extreme discomfort and itching, so foxes will scratch and scratch and scratch. So between the mics that are burrowing under the skin, and there's foxes scratching, little by little, they'll start to lose their fur. And then typically, you'll also see in a manger box that they have sort of a scabby appearance on their face, their faces look sort of gray and scabby, and their eyes look like slits because the scabbing causes their eyes. So their vision is impaired, so it becomes hard for them to hunt. Um, and those all those factors, the fact that they can't hunt, and winter when they suddenly lose their fiber. Ultimately, what usually kills a main fox is not the actual means it's either they hypothermia, or they starve basically, because they can't hunt. Um, so we I did see a young Fox in Homewood cemetery, and I've got a cat about to walk on to me, sorry. I lost my train of thought, in September then, and so this is
Unknown:sorry, this is September 20 2020 2003. Finn, this is like four months ago. Okay. So if somebody had told me back then that we would still be on this in December. I don't care what you believe them. But, um, we do know that foxes are very, very hard to capture. So we knew that we were taking on something complicated. We knew what what once we started to ask people about it at the cemetery. We learned from the workers there that there had been a bunch of cases over the summer and that some of them had been killed on the road. Some of them had just died, you know. So there had been a lot going on, and we were coming in rather late. And the problem also was that by September, the foxes are no longer cubs. They're no longer with their parents. They're not any in a unit together. They're starting to spread out and look for their own town. arteries, which makes things a lot more complicated. So all of a sudden we start getting reports of mailboxes all over the place in point breeze, you know, over on the other side of South Dallas, that whole area that we're in constant sightings. And then I started to hear about Fox Fox at Chatham as well. And we started hearing about some fruit Park, we started hearing about summit schenley Park, we're just getting all these reported reports of foxes with Meech, so it was it was very crazy, I'd say around October, we were getting constant reports. But the problem is that it's one thing but somebody say, Oh, I saw a fox with mange last night. But then actually finding where that fox is hanging out when when a trap is a whole different ballgame. And very often they'll go one route one night, and then the next night, they'll go a whole other route. They'll also sort of stay in a particular area for two or three days, maybe because there's a bird feeder, or there's a roadkill or something that keeps them in an area. So we'll get called out, we'll start to scope out the area and then all of a sudden, you don't see this box anymore, because he's moved on. And the fact that it's so uncomfortable, makes it worse because they're just feeling terrible. So they move move move all the time. Yeah, um, so we've it's been, I think it's safe to say for everybody, and I mean, we couldn't have done this without all the local volunteers who have helped so many people who have been there and helped us with baiting and checking traps and things. Um, they've been absolutely awesome. But I don't think anybody would have believed we still be here in December. But the first two months, I'd say was really trying to boil down where they were and try and find places where we could trap them. So we were moving trucks around and experimenting within the cemetery. I put up a trap in Chatham in Chatham campus in October. And in that particular case, thanks to input from local residents, I was sort of able to figure out the foxes route and put a trap right on her route. And I got her on the second night, and she's there now. And she's actually almost recovered at this point. Um, so we got the Chatham Fox, but the cemetery foxes have proved to be an enormous challenge. We had them all gathered in one area more or less, late November, and we were very, very close to getting one of them. She was stuck, we had the traps tide, and the one was starting to go fully into the trap. So we set the top and then the net. Well, two days later, the big snow came in. And once that first cold that we had, if you remember right at the beginning of December, yeah, they just disappeared, they disappeared from the area. And those two that are still around that we're still watching. And we still have traps out there. There's one that's in the worst shape that we are particularly worried about. And I just found out today from one of the photographers down there that she was spotted last week over on the point breeze side of the cemetery. So if anybody sees a sick looking Fox with most of her tail missing, we would really like to know where she's hanging out. Because once it gets to be January, that fox isn't going to do very well when we get sort of consistent cold. Oh, yeah. I guess especially if they've lost their fur. Yes, yeah. And the titles are really important to them. They normally foxes don't go in their dens in the winter, they they actually lie, they lie on the ground, and they use their tails as a blanket to keep them warm, those tails are really efficient, and foxes run quite hot anyway, their body temperatures are about 40 degrees. So healthy Fox can actually survive quite nicely in the winter. But the main Xbox is what we've been discovering is just from observing and the areas they seem to reuse dens again to keep themselves warm, because you can imagine when it was 18 degrees outside last week, and you have half your farm missing, and you don't have the phone on your tail. And so what they seem to be doing is they seem to be re occupying their dens which is interesting. You know, it's not normal behavior for Fox. But it that's one of the interesting things actually, is that we're realizing that what we're doing and really going out there and trying to help these foxes is we're in some ways we're covering new ground because I actually had a conversation last week with a rehabber in Tennessee, who only works with foxes, bobcats and groundhogs and Grandma, foxes, bobcats and raccoons. Sorry. And she was telling me that she does she does a lot of she goes out a lot to try and capture mange boxes. And she told me it was described as a nightmare. And the most frustrating thing she did and she reckons she manages to actually catch about one out of 20 and that people generally give up after a while because they're so hard to catch on. The what we've been doing and observing some of their behaviors is actually quite interesting. we're discovering that they do actually read them when they when they have maimed and that's how At least managed to survive some of the cold that we've been seeing. We what was the word you said? They read, they read then they using their dentons like, Okay, well they they wouldn't do outside reading, but this is how they seem to be surviving. Yeah, they're there for Wow. Oh, his main problem especially for foxes or I mean, as opposed to other animals. It's just me affects most sort of wildlife and we quite often get squirrels with mange raccoons, well, groundhogs can get it. There are different types of mice that tend to attack different types of animal. But foxes are particularly susceptible to this one type. sarcoptic mange. And certainly what we've been seeing in the past two or three years, I would say is that we've seen a real uptick in the number of Fox calls that we're getting. Two years ago, we were getting a lot of Fox calls, but it was almost always in beaver County. Um, and now, I mean, I've just set a trap yesterday in West Mifflin. For a fox out there, we've got all these Eastern foxes are affected by it. I've had calls from Westmoreland County, it's it's definitely getting worse. And I don't think anybody really knows why. I believe Penn State's doing a study into mange boxes right now. But I'm not covering. Yeah, but it's there's definitely been a massive increase. And I think the received wisdom in the past has been well, you know, it's horrible. But it's population control. But it really isn't population control. Yeah, more. Because when you've got the entire population in the stand the foxes that have mange, and they're a little apex predator in our little urban ecosystem, I see more than just population control. Right. Right. So that is what that was. My next question was, Why do foxes matter so much? You know, I mean, they're certainly cute, but like, what purpose do they serve? That would concern us a lot if the population were to change greatly? Right? It's a good question. And, and to be honest, if you ask them at the people in the neighborhood, they'll tell you, they really want any foxes until fairly recently that they were aware of. And so it allegedly is fairly new for there to be even foxes in the area. But if you consider any ecosystem, it's always good to have your apex predator there. And now there are coyotes in the east end of Pittsburgh, I hate to tell some people. But the fact that you've never seen one, you know, don't worry, because you've right at the center, you've nothing to worry about. Yeah, we we've picked up a clarity on our trail cam down at the cemetery, you had a query to get right by the trail cam right now. So they're definitely down there. But there's not a whole lot of them and, and so there aren't really any other apex predators, and it's important and ecosystem in keeping a balance and the rest of the population. So the cemetery manager recognized, talking to him that, you know, having the boxes there helps keep their groundhog and his world population. Yeah, you know, and we definitely have a lot of squirrels. So, yeah, that's Oh, any ground talks? I've never seen so many facts. groundhogs as other are not cemetry they're doing very well. What can stats groundhog, um, I love groundhogs. You know, but but that's nature, it has nothing there. Well, there's, there's a fair number of Raptors in the area to hawks and so on. So there's those them as well, but I think that they're a very valuable part of the ecosystem, you know, to me, all animals have their place and, and the urban ecosystem tends to be fairly unbalanced in that respect. So it's nice to have a little predator back in there. Um, that would be my response, maybe maybe a wildlife biologist might have more input for you, but that's the way I would see it, and works for me. And so when people call it like, I don't know that it would occur to me to call somebody if I saw a wild animal with I mean, if I eat me, first of all, I've from what I've seen of mange. It's very apparent when you see an animal You know, you're familiar with but like, I don't, I don't ever see foxes where I live so I just wonder like, they're just they seem like very elusive. Or at least they try to be very elusive. So so if I did see one with me, I like what it occurred to me to call somebody how, what do people are they calling the Wildlife Center of rohner they call up and it's they'll call the Wildlife Center and then the Wildlife Center will refer to wildlife in need for Okay, we'll be word of mouth sometimes as well. And wildlife in need. That's the capture nonprofit, okay, they're getting more well known now. So So if somebody posts on Facebook, you know, I saw this Fox look sick, somebody might say, I've been need so you know, you cut out the stuff. That's true. Yeah, very often it was through the Wildlife Center. But the people who are calling are calling because the animal needs treatment for the main they're not just calling like, you know, there's a fox in my yard and I'm afraid it's gonna hurt my cat or whatever, like, very often worried about their cats being attacked or their dog mangetout small dog. Yeah. I mean, I don't. People asked me this very question yesterday, but I think it's the likelihood that a fox is especially sick fox is going to attack a dog. Um, yeah, great. You know, it's gonna happen. And we don't usually ever get people calling in and saying, Oh, this box attacked our dog. It's more like they're concerned that it might. Oh, they're concerned that it might attack their cat. Now, I'm not gonna say a fox wouldn't go for kittens, because it probably would. Yeah, that's about but that's about the size. They I mean, they're very tasty. Oh, I don't imagine that they are, but. And so. Shoot, I thought of something. I was just going to ask you if I made that dumb joke about people calling? Yeah. Oh, well, it might have been about wildlife and need, I'll have to, I'll have to check them out. Because I had never heard of them before. It's That's good to know. And I know how word of mouth like, especially with. And I mean, I've seen it a million times with dogs and cats, especially. And with birds. I see people, you know, I saw an injured bird or I saw nest on the ground, you know, what should I do? And people are always quick to refer them to some kind of bird rescue or wildlife rescue or something like that. So thank you. I can't tell you how many nightmare responses I've seen on some Facebook groups. And yes, I mean, somebody will put out I saw this animal or I suppose baby bird, like you're saying, and then some people feel it an obligation to respond, even if not sure. And they'll give the wrong advice. You know, I mean, if you there's any doubt, don't listen to the people on Facebook, give that rehab center a call. Center call they won't mind, they'll be happy to advise you. And they'll tell you whether that animal needs to be helped or not. Yeah, that's good advice. Yeah, I mean, I think that, um, and I was guilty of this, too. For a long time, you know, the things that you grow up hearing, or that you've heard from people you think probably know, are things that you then repeat. And for many people, I shouldn't say you because of course, I'm sure you don't do that. But that's, you know, how a lot of this bad information just gets propagated and spread. And so I mean, we're, I think we're pretty lucky to have some wildlife rescue organizations around it seems like, maybe that's probably not unique to Pittsburgh, but that we're that we do have a good community of rescue folks, for wildlife and for domestic, right, let's take animals. And so these animals that you owe, I know one thing I wanted to make sure to ask you about. A lot of people who are not involved in rescue, when they hear trap, they think like bear trap or snap trap. That's not the kind of trap you're talking about. Can you tell us a little bit about those. So the traps that we use are, most people are familiar with the cat traps that you use in TNR. For trap neuter return, for example, the traps that we have, we have this couple of types, the one type is a little similar to one of those traps, but bigger. And the ones that I prefer are actually quite a lot bigger than that. So a lot taller, but it's the same principle there. They're about a box big box traps. So what we'll do is tie bait into the one corner, and hopefully get our Fox to walk in and set up. But therein lies the problem, in that foxes are known to be wily and sly for a reason. They're very, very intelligent. And the way I describe it to people is that Raccoons are very intelligent too, but their bellies rule over their heads. So there's something really yummy in that trap. Your raccoon is just going to take that risk right in there and he's going to get whatever it is wherever the box is, if the head rolls over this stomach and it's going to really think about going into an unknown structure to get me on. It's very rare when I've seen them. I've watched them the hillside cemetery and watch them looking inside. In fact, that the one day we did trap a fox on the one in worse shape but she actually had gone into the trap completely and had set the trap off. But prior to her doing so some of the other foxes had been going around the edge of the trap. Now when you camouflage these traps because you sort of have to try to go in there massively camouflage with tarps and leaves and branches and bits of bark and stuff. And the other foxes had been going around around trying to figure out how they could get this beat from the truck without going in and pushing it the branches and pushing it the bark. And I didn't see them do this. But when when the one Fox went in and set the trap off, I saw the door move and I saw some leaves falling for the door, but it didn't shut. She comes out of the trap. And I went down later to check it out. And the other fox is one of them had pushed a piece of bar. It had fallen just across the entrance to the door. My gosh, I only felt like about an inch or two. It wasn't dramatic. And the fox actually wasn't that worried it didn't fall very far. So she wasn't scared. Yeah. But it's I mean, that's what they will they will go around around around trying to figure out Can I get in this way? Can I get there? Can I move I move this Can I get them but they know that there's something weird about the trap they instinctively know in a way that no other animal that I work with does mean same with an impossible possible go straighten in the trap, but not the box. So it can be and I would say especially with a very healthy Fox, it's almost impossible with a regular trap to to get them to go in now there is a form of trap that you can use where they put a live chicken or something in a little box at the top and I'm personally not willing to work with that. I don't mind. Um, but that would probably have a higher success rate. Maybe but that's Yeah. What do you use for bait? boxes? various things. I mean, we we use them either sort of fried chicken, particularly these like that raw chicken? Um, any sort of raw raw meat. Basically. I have put some roadkill in there. I mean, to me, it's like putting the animal to another use. Yeah, I actually don't know if people will know this. I was driving in one day, and I found the freshly killed boxborough on the road. And I thought buddy, you know, at least this won't be your passing will be worth it, you know? Yeah. And in the truck, quite frankly, you know. And they actually seem to be quite attracted to that too, right? Yeah. I mean, I mean, I would imagine if you're a predator interested in that sort of prey then I've been giving big gimme. Um, and so once you've trapped one of these faxes, one of these main faxes, what happens? What do you do and what happens to the fax? So I would immediately take it to the Wildlife Center. Okay. They now have a amazing medication called it's bravecto, which is actually a medication for fleas and ticks something Yeah, we use on our cat. Right. It's very good on sarcoptic mange, very efficient. They use that give ivermectin which was a three stage treatment, they handed you the animal a dose of ivermectin three times once a week for three weeks. But the rat boy is a one stop shop. So they give as soon as the animal comes in and gets the recto. And you can see within two or three days, you'll see the difference in the animal. Like slant, they either eyes they start, their eyes start to open and they feel comfortable arm but typically with the animals we're taking, and they've already got other issues that lbma ciated, for example, there'll be skin infections from scratch. So they have to be on antibiotics. And that I mean, that wouldn't I'm not the one to speak to about the details of obviously medications because I'm not a rehabber. Right? They do they take a lot of care. I mean, they quite often have to pay them a couple of times at the beginning of treatment just to sort of SUV and treat those sores. Sure. and whatnot, get rid of some of the Yeah. And and as soon as they're well enough. And they finished their course of medication, they'll put them in an outdoor pen. Because then the next concern is and this is always a concern with wildlife rehab is you don't want that fox becoming super comfortable, where people write that they get them outside and they try to keep them out all the feeding and caring is done very quickly and efficiently so that they're not interacting too much with people, you know, right? You want our Fox to be nice and unseen aggressive when they get to be. Yeah, release. We don't want a friendly Fox going back out there. Yeah, which is going to be hard for a rehabber to be you know, because of course one of the rewards of doing a domestic animal you know, dog and and Cat Rescue is that you get to bond with these animals and see them recover and see them come around to sociability and adaptability and all that and that's But I guess it's just a different kind of reward. It's a different kind of person. Do a good job. Yeah. Yeah, not really what most of us, you know, that's a that's a, that's a different kind of person who can do that? That's really great. And you were saying that, um, you got started in wildlife rescue generally a long time ago, more than a decade ago. Was that here or was that? Not I was in Pittsburgh. Okay. I started out volunteering for a wonderful rehabilitator in Fayette County who unfortunately passed away in the region. She was a great rehabber. And like I said, then I switched to Verona was the animal rescue league at the time. Yeah. Ah, um, they're an amazing crew over there. They're very Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. Say that did they do? They have done such an amazing job on the foxes if there's three main foxes at the Wildlife Center right now? And they've done an incredible job with them. I mean, they're all looking really good now. Wow. And so how many have you trapped either yourself or with these groups? So so far out of this kind of four month batch, up, specifically in the east end? We've managed to get with the Chatham Fox, who's at the Wildlife Center now. Okay, so we were really struggling. You know, I'm yeah. When we first started out, I told the volunteers, this could go on for a very long time. This is going to be a long term project, but I don't really yeah. what extent it was, yeah. You know, a few weeks. couple months. Yeah, this is right into the winter. Yeah. Yeah. So so we want to get these these foxes helped. Because otherwise, they're it's a it's a suffering way to go. And it's a it's a long and slow and painful demise. In addition to you know, the damage that philosophy's animals does to the ecosystem. And you know, just being sad that they so what can members of the public do? I mentioned calling the Wildlife Center or contacting the Wildlife Center if they see Yeah, if anybody lives in the east and we know there's one I come up I mentioned this already, but that we know there's one the one that's in worse shape was seen over on the point breeze and just a few days ago, and we hadn't seen for a while I she had been over near where the traps are. But I think what probably happened is that she got shunned by the others, because she's in much worse shape with them, as you know, as a wildlife, um, because it doesn't really make sense that she moved because we were putting a food source over there. But she definitely disappeared when it got really cold. But she was seen last week, she is over there, and there's no way you can mess up because most of her taillefer is gone. And her face very crusted up. So if anybody does see her, yes, please feel free to call the Wildlife Center The har, human on the rescue and just let them know and give them as precise location as you can feel free to leave their number and I will call them back. The one thing that we do have over there is that and it's fully understandable is that we can't place traps near the graves. So we are kind of restricted as we trap. So when they do move into an area we can't trap, it's hard, but we'll just keep an eye on them. Right. And the fact is, quite honestly that when they when things do start getting bad for them when they sort of are in that bad stage of of the means. They take a lot more risks, then they become very weak and I've actually hand caught some of the fat foxes rather than trapping them. I've got one in beaver County, Johnny, who actually fell into a window Well, that was eight feet deep. Because you couldn't see well anyway. And yeah, you know, moving a lot she was moving around the area a lot it would then it was in beaver itself in the town. And people was constantly seeing her but and somebody managed to pick up on the police scanner that the police have been called out for a fox that fell in the window. Well, and somebody told me I rushed over there, oh my gosh, box and this deep window well, that we managed to get out with an act with the police. And she did great. She was rehabbed at the Wildlife Center and release but that's the kind of thing that starts happening to them. When they don't see they'll tell they'll get themselves cornered somewhere or they'll fall back to something and we can we can help you know that happens. But if people shouldn't be one of the things that can happen and it's understand also is that when you see a fox in that kind of shape, and they're not acting the way you expect them to, and you've seen them out middle the day and they're maybe not they don't look great and are they people where they have rabies or whatever, but just remember that they They can't see well, they're hurting that. Yeah, it's a horrible condition. That's extreme. Yeah. So do call the Wildlife Center and let them know. I mean, we're very happy to come out. But don't be alarmed, you know, the animals suffering, but it's not gonna exactly like to hurt you, right? I am not likely to hurt your domestic animals. Um, but we can help the animal if we know about it. So feel free to call us. And then about how long if you know, I can always ask someone at the Wildlife Center. But do you know about how long the rehab process typically takes? Like how long they're in this captive situation? Well, basically, what they're looking for is once the medication is completed, all they're looking for is for the fur to regrow completely, and especially the tail, because that tail is so important. So we had I brought one in in July, who I believe she was out there within a couple of months, I think. Because also you take into consideration that you're releasing the animal, Apple in the late summer, you're not worried about cold and whatever, right, are the three that we've taken in this past fall? Um, I believe one is going to be released very soon, if he hasn't been already, but the two others I think, will have to stay with the Wildlife Center until the spring just because the tails they lost so much of their tails, right? l regrowth won't be won't be far far enough along to release them. And then you were you release them back to where they were found and assume that they mean did they live in family pods or packs? Or did they are they pretty stationary? They tend to be loners. I mean, urban foxes are a little different from rural foxes. I mean, theoretically, they're supposed to be loners apart from during breeding season, which is a little different, but they are supposed to be loners. But we've witnessed quite a lot of boxes group, the boxes would mean grouping together at the cemetery. There's a big log pile down there, actually, so five of them at a time hanging out, you know, because they know they're compromised, you know? Yeah, different levels, but they know they're compromised. And so you see interesting behavior really released. I mean, it really, it really would depend on the situation, I can't speak to the ones that are there now and where they'll be released. But they'll look at like, I know that one in particular that I brought in the summer, was not released back where she came from, just because she came from a really bad place where people were trying to shoot her before we were able to capture her. So it wasn't a good place for her to go. But yeah, so she was released with some of the orphan cups from the past spring. Um, if if the environment is suitable, then I typically would release them back into their original environment, but it would just depend on on the case. Okay. Do you have someone at the Wildlife Center, you could recommend that I contact if I wanted to maybe do a follow up interview with them about some of these other questions about what happens after? Yeah, it would be Katie kefalos. Who's the clinic managers? Okay. Okay. Cool. I will do that. That would be that because I, of course, now have lots more questions for whatever comes next. Do you have any, any other projects you'd like to talk about? Or? I mean, this sounds like it's pretty time consuming. You probably don't have time for any other projects. Yeah, we haven't. Wait. Yes. This has I mean, I can't believe how much time Yeah, I'm sure. I hate to say that something good. came out of this horrible COVID period. But right. I'm a freelancer normal normally. So my work levels were down. So I've been able to devote the time. Yeah. You know, so no, I mean, really, there's no time to look into anything else too much right now. But I would love to, we'd love to at least get some of these guys and get Yeah, get them fixed up and, you know, during the winter, and then none of you can think about the project. Yeah. And do you have a feel for roughly how many you still have left to catch? I know what the other question was? Yeah, I think I in a cemetery, we think there are five, possibly six out there. Um, they all have manged to some degree going from the one that I mentioned who's in really bad shape to one who you really can hardly see that he has made and then there's another one we could see starting to lose his tail far. It seems to be a very slow form of means that they have I've seen it move a lot faster than it is moving with them. It's taking a while to set in I mean, some some you tend to see once it does start, they start to lose a large amount of fire and they start to lose the fire of their tails, then it starts to go a lot faster. Yeah, it looks like three of them that are in too bad shape for now. Um, and I would like to there's something I would like to add Actually, that's important because one of the things that you see a lot If you Google mange foxes running on all means that people will go well, you just, you just couldn't give them a medication on site, you know, just give them ivermectin, and you can read about it online. And even I know that in the UK, they'll actually send you the medication by mail. Well, the problem with that, is that the medication in question ivermectin, that's a very powerful neurotoxin. And right, give you an example, I mean, the amount that you would be giving to a fox is already very small. And it would have to be the right dose by weight, and it has to be by weight. So already, you would have to guesstimating the weight of the fox before you even gave it, then you're presuming that you're going to get that dose into that fox, and you've backed out. So yeah, all those and you're not going to double dose a fox and get Yes. And it's not going to go to a raccoon or a squirrel or an a possum or something, which is a smaller animal. And that could be injured, you know, affected by by by machten. So it's just, I mean, I'm sure that there may be some situations where you're just getting that one Fox come into your house every night, you're absolutely sure that you can Yeah, once a week with the same dose for three weeks. Okay. But in the vast majority of situations like the one we're dealing with, it's inconceivable that we could tick those boxes on site, because there's no way we could target each one and make sure we get that cup that Fox has had is those that Fox has had it. Yeah. And there's no way that we wouldn't risk it going to another animal who would be overdose. Yeah, yeah. Cuz that's also a terrible death. I did remember the other question I had, which is how does this How did they get it? Is it transmitted from Fox to Fox or through the soil or, theoretically, they lay around a lot where another means Fox has been lying, they could theoretically get it, but it's typically passed from the male to the female or vice versa during the breeding season during mating. And then afterwards, when the female stays in the den with the babies for a week or two after the babies are born. And if the female has already contracted means, then the babies are going to get it. Oh, wow. So that's basically and then you've got the whole letter. Right? Right. Okay, well, this has been very interesting and very helpful. And I don't know if I cut off the beginning of it, but hopefully, we got some good footage, here are some good audio. And I will try to get it posted soon. So thanks very much. And if you think of anything else you want to talk about, just send me a note. Sounds good. Thank you so much, Rebecca. Bye. You've been listening to my conversation with Rebecca Reed. For more information about wildlife in need Wildlife Center in Verona, and everything else we talked about. Visit PGH tails.com. That's pghtils.com. Pittsburgh Tails is a podcast about the creatures of Western Pennsylvania and the people who care for and about them. It was created and is hosted and produced by me, Mitch Barnard. If you have a comment, question or suggestion or you'd like to be on the show, email me at Mitch at PGH tales.com. Thanks for listening.