pittsburgh tails
pittsburgh tails
Mary Kennedy Withrow
In which I talk with my friend and animal-welfare luminary Mary Kennedy Withrow about some of what she's done and the state of the animal-welfare world. She's always full of great info and ideas.
I heard something. There. your smiling face.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Hi, you too. You look so nice. I love your hair.
mitch:Thank you I love yours! It looks like you lightened it a little?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:I did by myself. Cool now?
mitch:Yeah, clear. Thank you.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Thanks. Oh, boy.
mitch:How've you've been?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Okay, hanging in there. Yeah.
mitch:Are you seeing your kids? A little or?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Not really, my daughter is she's 33 weeks now. So everybody's trying to be really careful. And she did her husband was exposed. So she stayed with me for a while till we knew that, you know, he was we waited till it was a good time to test. And then he was negative. So she was able to go back home. So I'm being really careful, just in case that kind of situation happens again, you know? Or if he's exposed and she goes into labor, you know?
mitch:Yeah, wow. Yeah, so they're still enjoying Kevin?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yes. Yeah. Kevin's getting ready for the baby. Yeah, he is big. Yeah. He's about 60 pounds now.
mitch:Oh my God. Is he supposed to get bigger?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:he's like, 10 months now? No, he's nine months. So a little bit. Maybe he'll fill out a little bit. Yeah, yeah. But they're working so hard with you know, they work with him on cry, you know, the baby crying noises and all this stuff is set up. So he's getting used to stuff in the house. And we're doing laundry in Dreft so he gets to us, you know, used to the smell. And oh my gosh, that's so
mitch:yeah. Good for them. They've got Yeah, good advice from Grandma.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Grandma working on it. Yeah.
mitch:That's awesome.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Grandma was on it. Yeah,
mitch:that's awesome.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:But it's so exciting.
mitch:Yeah. 33 weeks or so. And I'm terrible at math. So the it'll still be a winter baby. Right?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah. February 19. Is the due date? Mm hmm. Cool. Yeah. That's Yeah. Kennedy, Louise.
mitch:I love it.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yes. My name is Mary Louise Kennedy.
mitch:Is Kennedy on your mom's your
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Mary Louise Kennedy.
mitch:Yeah. And that's you know, you're Mary Kennedy Withrow. This would be Kennedy Louise. That's a beautiful I love that.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Thank you.
mitch:Yeah,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:that's gonna be that's a little nod to mama there.
mitch:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's just it's, yeah, it's hip. But it's, you know, like, ya sick, though. Kinda. Louise just makes it a little like, you know,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:that's her middle name, too. And it was my mom's middle name. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we
mitch:Withrow you were married. That was your married name?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. I never changed it because of the kids. You know? Yeah. They were so young when we got divorced. So I didn't want to, you know, yeah. Yeah. How have you been? Okay. Yeah,
mitch:yeah. Yeah, I have two fosters right now who are do? Yeah, they. They, they've been with me for since about a week before the election. So what is that like?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:end of October? ish. Yeah.
mitch:Something like that. So it's been a while they've been, they, they were born feral. And then fostered to, you know, sort of hope in hopes that they could be adopted instead of returning to field and they've come a long way. But, and now they're about they're like, not quite 10 months old. Oh, wow. They were so they Were they were captured with their mom once. They were a few months old. And then kept with Alicia Dino Alicia finger. I know the name. You've probably seen her on next door. She's in our next door. Is that right? Yeah. Next door. She's on next door. And she runs she and her sister autumn star. Oh, yeah, yeah. Anyway,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:now that you mentioned that, yeah.
mitch:So they were the ones who trapped mom and these kittens. And so Alicia had them in her house for several months. But she had a lot of other fosters. And so just didn't really feel like they were getting socialized to as many other people. And, you know, really give them kind of the one on one that she thought they socialized with, with people. So she sent them over here. And they have been wonderful. They've come saw them beside me. And so pixel, who is one of them, the one of them got adopted already. Well, pixel is, has a sleep over as soon as we can sort of so the idea is that PJ is this third one is the most feral and he will not be caught, just won't be if he comes to you. He is a love, he really can't get enough affection. But he's still pretty hands shy if you approach him. Or, you know, he just he's very cautious. And so I and he's also he's gotten a lot better, but he plays pretty rough. And concerned. You know, normally when I have one last Foster, I will Yeah, great him into the mix. But I'm a little worried about one of our animals, you know, frightening him or thing and him Yeah, using his claws and hurting somebody. So Mm hmm. And because I don't want him then just left alone in the foster room after pixel gets adopted, which I'm pretty sure he will from this asleep over. The idea is that we're going to capture both of them at once and pixels going to go to his sleep over and PJ is going to go back to Alysia's because she's got far fewer cats now to deal with.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Mm hmm.
mitch:So, so right now, I'm like a little on edge. Because it's, you know, I have the dog crate set up so that they can add and go in and eat their meals in there. So that hopefully we can catch them, but they don't seem to go in there at the same time. So I think it's still going to be two separate things. And so I get stressed about this stuff because of like, you know, timing, because, you know, they can't, the people can't just come grab them as soon as I grade them. Mm hmm. So you know, all that kind of stuff. But you're all doing really well. getting them started has been, you know, distraction and fun. Work and all that stuff. So, yeah,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:good. God,
mitch:we're very lucky to not have a lot of change a lot of our lives. That's good.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah. Good. Good.
mitch:Like you're not working? No, hard, but you're also not. You haven't taken on anything else yet. Now have thoughts about what you'd like to do? Are you thinking entrepreneurial? Are you thinking?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Well,
mitch:um, you said something about changing careers.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:I had, I was so close, Mitch to a position with the ASPCA. It was this one on a hill last week. And it was something that I was I found on LinkedIn. And I, I was introduced to the president of the ASPCA through my friend Susan sunseri, her husband, and Matt, who's the president, were roommates in college. So I had coffee with Matt in New York City two years ago. And we, you know, just casually kept in touch. So when I saw the position, I emailed him, and I said, you know, and it is true that in my memories, a selfie of the two of us came up. So I emailed him and I said, You know, I was thinking about you and hope you're doing well. And by the way, I'm going to apply for this position. I wanted to let you know, and I you know, attached my resume and a cover letter, and he wrote right back and said I'm so glad you email me. I'll make sure your resume is on top of the pile. Right. So it was as if someone took my resume and created A job description.
mitch:Yeah, so
Mary Kennedy Withrow:it did say it was based in DC. So, um, so the, then I saw that it was gone. And I emailed him and I said, I see the positions, not on LinkedIn. And I said, I'm thinking somebody was hired. And he said, That's correct. I didn't realize we had hired from within. Okay, thanks. Anyway, I'll keep looking. Yeah. Then I get an email from HR, like two days later. We repost the job, and we're hoping you're interested. So here we go again. So back and forth, back and forth. Then she emailed me again and said, You know that, would I? Would I be thinking of staying in Pittsburgh or moving to DC? And I said, ideally, I would like to stay in Pittsburgh, I can be in DC and a little over three hours. I have family there, right. Doesn't have to be in DC. So she said, Let me check with the team. She wrote back and said, it is a senior position in government relations, they would like you to be in DC. Oh, you know, I was honest. And I said, if this were 10 years ago, I would do it. But you know, my daughter is about to have our first grandchild. And yeah, just the timing is bad. So
mitch:yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:So she said, you know, I'll keep my eye out. She said you were a very strong candidate. So I emailed Matt and said, you know, updated him. So yeah, we'll see. But, um, it was, you know, just it was a perfect job working in DC, you know, creating doing opposition research, which is what I always say to people who are working on legislation. You see what the opposition would be and go from there.
mitch:So the opposition for the for ASPCA,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:what would be like the opposition for anything so, you know, even when I was working on tethering, okay, who would not like this? Yeah. The Sporting dogs wouldn't like it. mushers wouldn't like it, you know, so, okay. How do we create this and work around that? So, before you even write anything, you know, yeah. So, um, but, you know, we'll see. It would have been, I know, I know. And there's just something in my head that keeps saying, I think this is over yet.
mitch:Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, maybe they'll make some adaptations given that so much right now, anyway.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Exactly. Right. Really kind of, right. Yeah.
mitch:I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if something evolves there. That's, that would be so perfect for you. I mean, yeah. Wow. It's like just a not a logical next step. Right. A little bit about your legislative work. We have so much to cover. But yeah, let's, let's talk a little bit about that. Since we are talking about this legislative physician. Tell me about how you got started doing that stuff, and what kinds of work you've done, and what kinds of laws have gone through or not? Uh, huh.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Okay. Are we online now?
mitch:Yeah, I've been recording I can,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:okay. Okay. Um, what started it actually was when I went on my first dogfighting ride, which was 11 years ago now. And it was in North Carolina, and just kind of following up on watching to see what happened to the people who own the dogs. And they got 30 hours of community service. And, you know, I saw the condition of the dogs and the properties they were on and the work that went into them and the HSE us, you know, flying us in putting us up in hotels paying for our meals, the amount of money that was spent to and I thought, I wonder what the laws are in Pennsylvania when it comes to this kind of thing. Yeah, I'm so just started kind of looking around and, you know, googling all sorts of things and looking at, you know, what states had better laws. And the state of Virginia kept, you know, coming back, because, you know, that was the michael vick case. And, you know, how did they get, you know, how did that all go down? Right. And there was a woman named Michelle Welch and she was the deputy attorney general at the time, so it was kind of her case. And a friend of mine who worked she was head of animal fighting for the HSUS connected me to Michelle Welch. And which was huge, you know, to me, she was like, Celebrity, you know. So she kind of, you know, she helped me so much when she actually came I testified before the house on I wanted to do what Virginia had done, which is out in the end they got michael vick was adding dogfighting to racketeering the Rico statute, because it is organized crime. It's, you know, it's dog fighting. But it's using dog fighting to hide illegal drugs, illegal guns and you know, it's organized crime. Yeah. So, um, she came up to testify also, I asked her if she would come up and talk about Yeah, so she did, it was great. But, um, so what I, the first thing that I started on was, you know, the tethering of dogs, because that's how those guys are cat. So it all kind of started from, you know, dogs being on a chain interest and the life that that is, yeah, and looking, you know, when I was on that raid, in looking at the pictures they had from the sky, and just seeing, like, how the first thing that they look for are circles of dirt. Yeah. And you see, like, Circle Circle Circle, you know, because they just walk in a circle. And so, I sent an email to Councilwoman Harris, who, you know, was a city council person at the time and asked her if I could talk to her about an ordinance in the city of Pittsburgh for dogs who are kept outside or you know, live their life outside or are tied outside. Never thinking anybody would ever get back to me. Yeah, she called like that afternoon and said, You know, I want to I want to meet with you want to talk to you. So, that was in like, November. And so her Doug shields was her, like legislative assistant. And we looked at laws all over the country, and kind of picked what we liked, and didn't like. And we made what I think is honestly, the best law for outside dogs. Great. Anywhere that I have ever seen. And that's a city, Pittsburgh, it's the city of Pittsburgh. Okay. And it was I testified before City Council, scared to death. And that was on like a Tuesday. They voted. The following Monday, it was unanimous. And I got to be with the mayor when he signed it into law. So that was in 2014. And then I sent the language to state senator. And he liked it. He introduced it. It didn't. I testified and I took a toe chain with me to the Senate. When they were kind of nobody could believe that dog actually was on the end of this. We're going to talk about that
mitch:right after you finish the story. Change. Oh,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:yeah. So it was the Senate Judiciary Committee. So Senator Greenlee came over after and he said, I'm gonna move this bill for you. And I need your help on moving a bill I have on the puppy lemon law bill, which is a good one and it passed. Yeah. So there was a lot of opposition to the the tethering outside dog law or bill opposition mostly from like, the sporting dogs, you know, they want to keep their dogs outside. So yeah, yeah. Um, so it kind of died out. And then Lee bracelet came along. And I have you know, anybody who knows me knows I have serious issues with the tethering part of Libra is law. And I told them, you know, you, you only talk about tethering, but in Libras law, tethering is not an offence. Section 5536 of title 18 is tethering. But it just gives a definition. It's not something that you can cite somebody for. Everything within Libras law has to point back to neglect.
mitch:So great, um, what is Libras law?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Libra was a little Boston Terrier, who was in horrific condition at a commercial kennel puppy mill in Lancaster. And he was nursed back to health and kind of became the face of cruelty in Pennsylvania. And really, really did raise awareness on you know, what, what's, um, the conditions that some dogs live in? Yeah, some animals live in. Um, so I'm not a fan. have big, comprehensive Omnibus acts there. You cannot get them to open back up again to make any changes. Oh, so it's very difficult. I will say, yeah. So I wanted that to be a standalone, you know, outside dogs, I know that we'll never get everybody to bring their dogs in. So, like we did in Pittsburgh, you know, just have it so that if you're gonna keep your dog outside, it has to have these things. Right. So, and the Pittsburgh ordinance includes dogs who are unattended outside as well as dogs who are tied or tethered outside. So the state law Libras law is only for dogs who are tethered. So easy fix for anybody who keeps their dog outside, take them off a tether? Yeah, build a little house, you know, a lot of them are now in like, five by five fenced in areas, you know, so. And if they have a dog house there that has, you know, straw? Yeah, you know, water gets fed, it looks healthy. It can be 10 degrees. And there's nothing you can cite, because it's not neglect. Yeah. So it all points back to neglect. So the only thing you can cite for is neglect. If there's not neglect, there's nothing that you main officer can do. So it almost made it worse than it was before.
mitch:Yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:So and I, you know, I tried so hard to tell them, Look, you're just going to try to change this later. And but the PR train had left the station, and but it come back this past year. Can we have your language again? And, you know, good luck. I, you know, I'll do whatever I can, yeah, change it. But I don't think that the legislature is interested in opening up act 10, which is Libras. Law. Yeah, and there's a couple things that, you know, the end, the, Mitch, the best lessons that I learned. Along the way, when I was director of humane investigations at the Humane Society, judges who follow the letter of the law. There was one case where, you know, we had three charges, because there was no food, water shelter. But at the time, that was all in one paragraph, and the judge said, You can't charge for three, this is one charge, I can give you one charge. Yeah. So I did give that to Don constant the time and I said, you know, one change that we need to make is this paragraph needs to be broken into three, and each one is an offence, and that did become part of the race law. So that was a little victory. But um, but judges can be really good on, you know, helping you with why you can't get, you know, so you can learn a lot from them and making changes to existing laws. But, um, so that was kind of a long story about how I got started in legislative stuff. So after the, the outside dog ordinance in Pittsburgh, Aaron Cassidy, you know, our good friend, she asked me to come and testify before North for sales, which is where she lived at the time. And they liked it, too. So they passed it in North for sales, and then Sharpsburg did. I think that might be it for now. So those three places don't enforce the state law. They do their local ordinance. So
mitch:I mean, that seems like something wilkinsburg would embrace.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah, and I have put it out there several times. You know, I will go meet with anybody who, you know, wants to try to get their municipality on board. Cool. So
mitch:yeah, we'll have to check that. Yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:And then then we did. Then I did the animals in cars, because it used to be that only police could get into a car or get an animal out and it was just dogs. And if somebody broke a window, animal control, even if they showed up it then was a crime scene so they couldn't touch anything. Wow. Though. The ordinance that I did was that it was cats and dogs because cats go to the vet and cats are in you know, cats get transported by shelters to go to, you know, Petco and PetSmart. So they are in cars. So that animal control, first responders, firefighters, police have immunity to you know, break a window to get cats and dogs out. I tried to get rabbits included in that because or one of the top five cities In the country for a rabid ownership, but they wouldn't go for that. And that I did send that to representative Frank ferry in the state legislature. And it, it passed. So that's now state law.
mitch:Oh, great.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah. You know, if I, as a private citizen, come across a dog and distress in a car, or whatever, if I break the window, am I mean, you're not, we don't have a good Samaritan. And the reason we didn't do it that way is we were worried about, you know, like, the criminal element being added, you know, like, Oh, yeah,
mitch:I broke the window,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:because there was a dog in there. And, you know, it's gone. Now. I
mitch:don't know where it is right. Now. Right. What is it, then? We're
Mary Kennedy Withrow:just a little worried about that. You know, that's,
mitch:yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah. Crime Scene thing still in place are
Mary Kennedy Withrow:no. Okay. Yeah.
mitch:Yeah, do something. Yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:That's good. They just have to leave a note saying where the dog is, and if they have taken it to a hospital, and you know, they have to tell the owner. Yeah. And then the owner is cited for neglect or cruelty or so that what happens is the, the state law then kicks in based on the condition of the dog. Gotcha.
mitch:I want to circle back and talk about other dogs. You were talking about toe chains, dogs chained up outside. I know that when I first encountered all of this, I think you were working on some of that around the time that we first met, or maybe like a year after we met. So I remember that work. And I remember thinking, you know, yeah, that's not an ideal life living chain of my childhood dog was spent plenty of time chained out on a, like a dog lead.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Mm hmm.
mitch:We had some woods with a little clearing behind the house. And I hate that he had to do that there were a lot of things wrong with how we raise that dog. Looking back, but, but I remember thinking, you know, that's I just didn't, I didn't know the reality of what these dogs our dog was on a 2025 foot lead, it was very lightweight. It was in, you know, a comfortable spot, and he would be out there for, you know, the evening while he had dinner or whatever. Tell me about how these dogs lives are not like that. What's different about the kinds of the tow chain what a tow chain is to W chain? And how the hell those dogs live and what these circles are helping.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:You know, typically, a tow chain is, you know, in talking about a game dog, you know, doggies for dog fighting there, you know, the ideal weight of those dogs is between 33 and 36 pounds. So they're, they're kind of small. And a toe chain is usually about two and a half to three times their weight. Well, it's also meant for you know, conditioning. So it's, you know, it's very heavy and it's typically either on a steel clamp, or a big leather
mitch:clamp around their neck. In addition to the collar, okay, yeah, that's just hugely damaging physically in first without a chain, right?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:And in the case of dogfighting, there's usually a, you know, an oil barrel that's on its side. And that's what they can use for shelter. The day in North Carolina, it was over 100 degrees. It was August 11. So it was really really hot. And you know, there were bugs in their water muddy the water mosquitoes though humid. Yeah. Yeah. So there's, you know, mosquitoes so you you know, you worry about heartworm and BC and you know, all the disease that you know, that can bring to a dog. Yeah. And they so it's there's a like a big stake in the center. And the choke chain only goes so far. But typically it goes far enough and has just a small distance. So that the dog that's opposing it, is it's almost like a taunting Yeah. Just know they're just Wow, I didn't realize that's me. Yeah. are very close.
mitch:There's aggression between these dogs are adversaries.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:And they're, you know, there's also the, you know, a dog who dogs have fight or flight by instinct. Yeah, so even a dog that's in a yard on a tether doesn't have its fight. You know, it's gonna, you know, fight. So, you know, dogs on a tether are four times more likely to bite. And a lot of times it's a kid because you know, maybe a ball goes in a backyard, they don't think about it, or they don't realize there's a dog there. And suddenly, you know, they get a bite.
mitch:Wow.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah. So I think, you know, a lot of people don't think about the fight or flight, you know.
mitch:Yeah, yeah. And especially being purposely put just out of reach of another dog who has a situation. That's Yeah, yeah. So and what happens to a dog like that if it gets heartworms or something like that if it gets sick?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Um, well, I mean, heartworm, you know, can be treated, it's, you know, it's and there's different processes now, but, um, it's expensive. And it can be hard on the dog, a lot of cage breast, which can be hard for a dog to take it easy for a long time. But it is, you know, it is curable,
mitch:is someone who is operating a ring, who is raising fighting dogs, likely to engage in that kind of treatment evening, or I'm gonna just be left to do if it's
Mary Kennedy Withrow:if it's somebody who is, you know, really big time, has, you know, grand champions and has a long line of champions who make them a ton of money. They're probably going to use preventative, you know, prophylactic meds so that they don't get it. But, um, and most of the groups that, you know, the raids that I've worked on, some of them had the visa. Some of them were heartworm positive, but I'm not an overwhelming amount. But a lot of the ones that we worked on were pretty heavy duty dog fighters, you know, they'd been doing this for a long time. I
mitch:need to be made there. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's a reason but yeah, football player was still. Right.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:There was when we worked on the 367. You know, the one that was that was an FBI case in Dothan, Alabama. And it was for five properties in four different states, two time zones, all at the same time. Eight o'clock AM. And seven minutes, there was 367 dogs.
mitch:Wow,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:that was, you know, we thought we were gonna have about 150. And the numbers just kept going up all day long.
mitch:in this society, when you say we,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:and there was one property, there was a Friday. And so we knew that there was no one ring that was having a huge fight that night. And there at that property, there was $500,000 cash. Wow. And that was on one dog.
mitch:Holy crap.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah. Yep. Yep. There were 13 people arrested that day. Everybody pled not guilty.
mitch:Wow. And some of those dogs made it to here having states for rehabbing. Oh,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:yeah. Yeah. And we've gotten so much better over time on, you know, learning how to socialize those dogs and, you know, get them into a home where they can live to be a patent, and they, they're so on socialized, they really don't know, anything. So that's the hardest thing about them. And, you know, some are just, you know, there were some that are just too animal aggressive, that they just would not be safe. You know, and that's the saddest thing. Because they could be, you know, pretty once they come around, you know, to trust a person pretty people friendly. And, and sometimes that's bred in them to be really people friendly. But you know, when they're, you know, when you're betting$500,000 on a dog for a fight, you know, that's a that's a scary level of dog aggression. Sad.
mitch:These are the dogs whose collars you save, right?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Oh God, I have so many collars.
mitch:Because people have just destroyed that their spirit.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:It's never their fault. Anything they do start somewhere with a person.
mitch:Yeah,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Mm hmm. Yep.
mitch:Yep. Um, okay, I want to go back in time a little bit to how you first got started in any I mean, you Your, your list of organizations and agencies that you've either worked for or volunteered with is is longer than my arm. So you must have gotten started. Young. How'd I mean? How did you get started with animal rescue animal welfare? Did you? What What made you? Yeah, how did that begin for you?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:That, you know, it hasn't really been, you know, all that long. Um, my, my partner died in a scuba diving accident, right. And it was, you know, really dark times. And I always loved animals and and, you know, just sort of, kind of haphazardly volunteered at the Animal Rescue League. And I had a really great grief counselor, and I wasn't getting any better. And she said, you know, if you're ever going to get better, you have to go outside yourself, when you're going to have to help someone or something. And she said, you know, why don't you start, you know, doing more, you know, the, the shelter? And so I did. And, you know, it's funny, then later, she used to say to me, you know, I wasn't really talking about all this. But, um, so that it really was, you know, was, that really was what brought me out of how I felt. And not, you know, just being around 2007.
mitch:Okay. Yeah. Yeah, well, that's, you know, 13 years ago. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. work in that time.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:But, yeah. Yeah.
mitch:And so that was at a IRL when it was written that.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yep. The old building.
mitch:Frankstown and Hamilton?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah. Hamilton and Fifth.
mitch:And so from volunteering, you worked your way up to what?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Um, I did community outreach. Okay. And love that. Love that. Yeah. Um, and then, um, I was recruited over to the Humane Society. Right. And that was for behavior. And then I got promoted to shelter director and head of behavior, government relations and humane investigations. Wow, that was a lot. That is a lot. And it was, you know, it was it. Sorry. It was a pretty we had a really robust humane investigations department? Yeah, it was, it was great. really was. And we had a good officer. He was, you know, just as much about educating people as I was. And that's, you know, really most of what a humane officer should do.
mitch:Yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:So, it worked well. And we had a, we're really lucky in allegheny county that we have the, you know, the ADAs that we have, yeah. Um, we're also the only county in Pennsylvania that has an annual Task Force. Oh, that's, you know, that's credit to Steve Zappala when he started that, and, and we had dead jugan. And now we have Rachel Fleming. And this isn't I think, assistant district attorney. Yeah. They know the law. They know what they're doing. And, you know, we we did really well in court. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
mitch:the changes this so when when did you start as in that top position, that shelter director, the all those that sort of combined roll over there?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:2014. Okay. Mm hmm.
mitch:And then there have been a lot of changes in the shelter system here in Pittsburgh during since then. I can't remember when that all started or exactly what order What happened to my recollection is that he made in rescue was, which was still a URL, then this started work on the new building where it is now. On Hamilton. And then it merged with. Yeah, then it merged with Western Pennsylvania Humane Society, which is where you were at that time. And that brought on a lot of personnel changes, as I recall, because each of the entities had operated separately with its own management and everything right, hold on. So leadership combined, and it rebranded itself as humane animal rescue. Okay. And what can you tell me about those personnel changes in those upper levels and how that affected your situation?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Um, I stayed there for a little while. Um, it was, you know, it was, it was difficult at first. I mean, I, I was actually very excited about it at first, because, you know, I loved my time at animal rescue. And we had a great crew. We did great stuff. Yeah. So I was really excited about it. And I think a lot of the people at the Humane Society were really worried about it. And when it all came together, it was sort of a little bit of an us versus them, you know, that there was a little bit of
mitch:As happens sometimes in mergers.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah. Right.
mitch:It's hard, you know, everyone's kind of still jockeying for their relevance in the new organization. Okay, and,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:um, you know, I, I loved they, they didn't want to have a government relations position. And I, I loved humane investigations.
mitch:Mm hmm.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:And that was that position of Director was given to somebody from animal rescue like that they had never had a humane investigations department. So that was a little surprising. Yeah, that's me. Yeah. So I ended up leaving there. Okay. And went to PAART.
mitch:Yes. Um, tell me about PAART. What does PAART what is PAART stand for? What does it do? And what did you do there?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:PAART is Pittsburgh aviation animal rescue team. So they basically do transport for shelters who had overcrowding, and needed animals to go to someplace where there was room. We also did and when there were hurricanes, we would get there before the hurricane. And then I would find places for animals to go, who were existing strays. And that's kind of how FEMA likes it to work. So that you clear out. And then there's room.
mitch:Which makes sense, because yeah, it was animals from the disaster are then still in the local shelters, their owners can hopefully reclaim them once they're back on their feet.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Right. And FEMA kind of redesigned that whole thing after Katrina, because that was sort of a disaster, when it came to, you know, the animals, but, um, there was there now, there's somebody who's sort of, you know, there's a chain of command, and, you know, somebody is at the top given directions instead of like, every organization does, descending upon the area, and nobody's in charge. So, yeah, yeah. Um, and so, um, we had an airplane and to ground vehicles, and it was just me and one other person or the employees, I was the executive director. And that a huge team of volunteers that did everything from the driving to cleaning cages and shredding paper and and it was, it was great. We did a lot of great stuff. A lot of stuff. Um, you know, the landscape of dogs, especially in this country is changing quickly. I don't know I could see this coming back at the Humane Society. And I remember getting some criticism because I started to transport program with the ASPCA in 2014. And, you know, population of animals was just declining. And, um, you know, I knew there was not an overpopulation problem in Pennsylvania because we weren't seeing puppies at all anywhere. And so we started to bring some in, you know, people were people who want to adopt a puppy. People want to rescue a dog. I'll get a lot of people want a puppy. You're talking
mitch:about yet the shelters you got Yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah, from Athens, Tennessee. Yeah. So, it used to be that we could go to West Virginia, and get all the dogs that we wanted. And then it kind of went to Virginia, Kentucky. Then it went a little further south. And then Canada started looking for dogs in the United States. And then st Hubert's, set themselves up as a kind of a hub. So they get massive amounts of dogs from the south, and shelters from st Hubert's is in Morristown, New Jersey, okay. They have shelters that come from New England, and pick dogs, and then take them back up into New England. And there's been lots of mergers of the shelters in New England because they're just not needed. And so it's sort of now you have to go really far south, like, you know, North Shore animal League, st Hubert's, they're all going as far as like Mississippi, Texas.
mitch:But again, it's not okay, people up north, you can stop spaying and neutering adoptions, right?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Um, you know, that it's, it's a conversation that needs to be had. Okay, and I don't think anybody's talking about it. I remember one set the shelter saying, the nice boy dog and the nice girl dog comes in, we should breed them and everybody was like, but, you know, on the on the flip side of all this is, you know, we there's now new legislation federally, that was introduced by three, it's bipartisan, know that the three congressmen who introduced it are veterinarians. One is also one's an MD, and a veterinarian. It's called the healthy dog importation act. So in 2018, we imported over a million dogs. So, um, yeah, I mean, that's not all of those were for resale. Some of them were owned by people, okay. And they're not coming in less than 1% of them came in with what they needed to be screened for so that we're sure that they're not capable of causing disease to our pets, or livestock, which eventually would be our food. So what the healthy dog importation act is, is that they would have to come in with a valid certified that inspection. And they would have to be screened for distemper, rabies, influenza. We find a lot of disease in from other countries. And I think COVID has, you know, shine a new light on, you know, what, we better be careful of what we're importing. So, um, you know, what, just give the USDA and aphis a little more to work with so that they can have more to make sure that what's coming into the United States is safe.
mitch:What's APHIS?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:APHIS is the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Services.
mitch:So you're dealing with I mean, when you're when we were talking about part it's transporting animals between states and with Canada as well, but not, you know, Europe work, whatever coming in from overseas literally. But there's still health certificates required in most states or some states, all states, all states, all states, these different diseases and you know, vet checks and all that stuff. And then so then APHIS is dealing with that but also with global you know, people who move here with their pets or right you importing livestock,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:um, dogs?
mitch:And Oh, right. Yeah, dogs.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:And when I say over a million dogs
mitch:We'll have to talk sometime about live-animal shipping. There's I was just reading something about that with shipping live, like horses. Livestock for consumption purposes not so much pets, which already has some interesting but but pretty, you know comprehensive laws on the books about transporting your, your pets and of course the FAA gets involved in all that stuff.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yet speaking of the FAA, they were just Well, back in June, and you may have seen this, there were 500 French Bulldogs, who were imported from the Ukraine. And, you know, their bracheocephalic breed, they have a hard time breathing on a good day. Yeah. They arrived, and 39 of them were dead. Wow. And yeah. And, you know, imagine the horror, I'm not sure. You know, who they were going to, you know, what, you know, whether it was a store or you know, what, where they were going to be sold. But, um, yeah, 500 and it was 500. And it was a 10 hour flight.
mitch:It was just a huge number of animals. Time. So, you know, it's
Mary Kennedy Withrow:like, the So, you know, what, what is the conversation? You know, we have like, in Pennsylvania, you know, I, I have concerns about Victoria's law, because I think it has a lot of unintended consequences. If, you know, the idea is that you shut down the pipeline from commercial kennels. Okay. Um, you know, one thing I see as a problem is, you know, like I said, people are going to, people are going to get a puppy somehow. Right, I see it one thing, you know, the the winner in that being online puppy sales. Right? Um, you know, the other thing is, what we're seeing is importation from other countries.
mitch:Right? Like, a French bulldog puppy. You're gonna bring in a French bulldog puppy, or they're gonna you're gonna get
Mary Kennedy Withrow:it, you're gonna find one. Yeah. So do we want to get more strict about what we have here? While we, you know, quote, unquote, grow here? Yeah. Um, do we know what conditions these dogs that are being imported are coming from? Yeah, we know. We have no idea.
mitch:Right? There's, I
Mary Kennedy Withrow:mean, is it humane? We don't know.
mitch:Yeah. Right, because we barelyeditorial insert herewe barely regulate properly the breeding facilities we have in the United States. Right. And that's a conversation you and I have had about agriculture, lobby, agriculture, and having perhaps some interest in keeping in monitoring the laws that govern breeding, any kind of animals. Um, one of the things I discovered several years ago, I think we've talked about this before. When I go on vacation, I like to visit the local shelters, to see what they how they do things differently and what kind of animals they have and things like that. And one of the things I discovered is that different regions have totally different problem, problem animals like, and by, that's just a very loose phrase. But, for instance, in this part of the country, we have pit bulls, quote, unquote, blocky headed dogs are lots of shelters. In the states that will take them in there are some shelters, and states where they're not even permitted to exist. or insurance laws are such that they're in for renters, yada yada and homeowners In Southern California, when I was there, the Palm Springs shelter was overrun with Chihuahuas. So part of that issue of dog shortages, as we call them is also dogs of a type of have interest. In other parts of the country, there are parts of the country where people are dying for locking arms and parts of the country that would really love to have little Chihuahua mixes. Some of it is just logistics, right? And mounting people who want those kinds of animals with, with the places that have them and literally physically transporting those animals.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Mm hmm.
mitch:Which, you know, might be a, an extension of an organization like PAART, right? Or Pilots for Paws or something like, right.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:And I think that's what you're starting to see now. Like, if you follow Wings of Rescue. Yeah, they're, that's, you know, and they're so they're at, you know, Texas is they have a huge, you know, Houston, one of the largest cities in this country has a horrible stray dog program. I mean, problem. And so they've been going there, like once a week, and going back up to St. Hubert. So that'll, you know, that funnels dogs into, you know, New England, and, and probably Canada, too. So they've been going there.
mitch:I mean, yeah, it's not cheap pilot's time. You know, right. Even volunteers, you know, it's still,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:those are some great donors. That's Yeah.
mitch:That's resource intensive. And so right. That's another part of the equation that will last,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:but they've been doing some big time movement from out of Texas. So they're, you know, there's still problem spots that are like Mississippi, Texas, California. Yeah. So there's the, you know, the disparity of, you know, no dogs in the northeast, yeah, Canada, and then these dogs that are way down here. So yeah, and
mitch:those conditions are some of the I don't want to pick on, you know, Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana, some of these facilities. And they're not all shelters, right? Literally just dog pounds. You know, we're very isolated out here in Pittsburgh. Yeah,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:we have dog Pam. And they're doing the best they can, you know, a lot of them.
mitch:Yeah, I mean, there's no money. And right here. You know, you and I being neighbors, we see the same site all the time. And there's there is a vocal group of people who complain a lot about why doesn't somebody do something? Why can't we, you know, keep all of these animals, why can't we do all this with and some of it is just jabs at the local leadership of right new shelter system, the newly merged system. And some of it is just, I think naivety about it is, you know, I read I see stories online all the time in my Google News Feed and you know, people share them all the time on Facebook about you know, a dog that was in a shelter for eight years, and finally found a home and that's wonderful for that dog that it found a home. But there just are not a lot of facilities that will care for a dog for eight years sustain white for eight years, there just aren't. So those stories need to also come with a if you want to hear more stories like this about your hometown, you need to decide that that's a priority either for you personally to donate, or for your taxes to go to work toward it. And there's, you know, don't get me started on people complaining about high taxes and then complaining about services. rant but yeah, that's that is all
Mary Kennedy Withrow:that is done. You know, my my worry is, okay, what? We're down that far. Yeah. You know, we're going that far for dogs. You're just starting to come in from other countries. What is our dog landscape in five years?
mitch:Yeah. And how do we not overcorrect?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Is it going to be? If you can afford a dog from a breeder you'll have a dog
mitch:which is already you know, I mean, there's already that that issue.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Look locally, look at massive, yeah, humane animal rescue. And look at the number of dogs in two buildings. Sometimes it's like nine.
mitch:Yeah, yeah, it's um, and you know, we've been talking about dogs this whole time. I see the same thing on the cat side. I'm not volunteering at the shelter. Right now. But the last time I was there, I did one of those sleep overs like you did. Yeah. started that program at a loss to leave. They still well, not this year, I'm sure but a year and in recent years, they've been having those still. And I did. I did one with cats. And I was just stunned by all the empty cages. And I thought, you know, I really hope and this is something I hope to interview somebody over there about somebody you know, how much of this is turning away? It's an open door shelter. So it's not turn away animals, but medically turning them away, if you will? How much of it is declining populations for some, you know, disease or some kind of thing like that, that strays are not reproducing? How much of it is people finding other ways to do away with the animals because they don't like the managed intake? Or, or just because they can't be bothered with taking them to a shelter? It's a really, it's unnerving to think about, you know, when you when you see empty, empty cages, where once upon a time, I mean, yeah, we're both shell at all the shelters, not just those shelters, and, and fosters were, you know, finding spare closets to put. Right, right.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:or bathroom,
mitch:I would be interested to know, what the cat situation is like, because their reproduction is much, much greater than than dog reproduction.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:I know in you know, in, in my, you know, time at part. There were shelters in in New England that were looking for cats, you know, it was their numbers were definitely declining up there. On the on, you know, pretty much on the whole, their numbers have declined only slightly across the country. But again, you know, those pockets of you know, and I had talked to some of the shelters around here about sending some cats up there. And ASPCA had reached out about sending some cats to Massachusetts. But it's hard, you know, sometimes some of the rescues or shelters around here, you know, don't want to send their cats someplace that they're not familiar with and that, you know, but I mean, you you
mitch:even just the very the people who are the very least involved in the animal care at these shelters, people and you know, admin positions get very they care very much about Oh, yeah,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:I know. I mean, I looked at every one of those animals as my home.
mitch:Yeah. You know, it was it was bittersweet when
Mary Kennedy Withrow:they went out the door. It really was.
mitch:Yeah, very happy.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:And I used to always say to people, please love them like I do. Yeah. And I hope that that would stay in their head, you know? Yeah.
mitch:Yeah. No, I really try to ask for updates without begging. Yeah,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:right. Right. Or being a stalker?
mitch:Yeah. It's like, I do a lot of people with Facebook. Yeah, it's, it is always hard. And, you know, ready to say goodbye to the, to the fosters. I
Mary Kennedy Withrow:have, oh, yeah. You know,
mitch:it'll be a relief to be able to focus on some other things. You know, it's very interesting.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:It's hard. But, you know,
mitch:I just, I love it so much. And when I'm not fostering it, I feel like I'm not doing enough. It is terrible. It's just, it's led in my belly. It's just a really hard thing to, to, to deal with. emotionally. So I don't really know how that's gonna go. But
Mary Kennedy Withrow:yeah, well. Can we talk about one other thing?
mitch:Yeah. Oh, yeah. I
Mary Kennedy Withrow:have a really important.
mitch:Many, many questions if you have time for so. Yeah. What's next?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Um, I wanted to make sure we talked about dog licensing. Oh, yeah. Um, it's sort of, for me, it's kind of first on the agenda of like, what needs to happen in in Pennsylvania. Okay. Um, we have had a $6.50 dog license fee. And I call it a user fee. Yeah. If you don't have a dog, you don't pay. But you benefit. Everybody benefits. Yes. So since 1996, it's been $6.50. Oh, my gosh. And we're in 2021.
mitch:Yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:We thought this past legislative session which just ended that we were going to be so successful in getting it passed. It's it because it's an increase in a, you know, something that public has to pay. It's really difficult. And it was this year because of everything that surrounded COVID. Yeah, we came really close, but we didn't, we didn't succeed. So it will be introduced again, on January.
mitch:Yeah. Because this has to be large.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:We're asking for the fee to go to $10. That's all. Wow. Mm hmm. Yeah. So and what has happened over especially the last five years is we've had to, and I'm on the dog law advisory board. So I've, you know, have really worked hard on, you know, working with the state legislature and try and get them to understand that we can't cut human capital. any more. We have or down? I think 21 wardens. So the wardens that we have, are working much more. They're barely fulfilling the statutory requirements. So and I don't think people realize that, let's say Allegheny County, there are, I believe the numbers 150. rescues, done dog boarding facilities, daycares, shelters, they all have to be inspected twice a year. And every quarter, they have to have a paper audit, because they get paid by the state for the shelters do that are that are stray holding facilities. Okay, so and that takes a lot of time. I've been through a lot of paper audits. Yeah. And they have to be done at separate times. Because you can't know when the warden is coming, sir. So there's a lot of work with just that, then, you know that if there's a dog bite, it's the warden, who gets the call? Oh, it's the warden who goes to court if somebody files dangerous dog charges? Wow. Yeah. And it's the warden, who is, you know, if there's stray dogs out there, and they're supposed to go get the stray dogs, they have a lot to do. Right. And there have also been office people, excuse me, at the Department of Ag in the Bureau of dog law that have had to be let go?
mitch:Well, you
Mary Kennedy Withrow:know, I mean, think of inflation has way outpaced the 650 cents. You know, they have to have vehicles each of the warden has, you know, they each have a vehicle. Yeah. And so they're, they're operating by borrowing from the state. So if they could get the, you know, $10 is for, you know, an altered animal. And the city of Pittsburgh, I think, Pittsburgh has their own. If you live in Pittsburgh, you buy a license from the city of Pittsburgh, and I think it's$20. So it's way more than the state. Right. Um, so if, if we don't get this legislation passed, the the police are going to have to take over, and they're probably going to have to help now, with stray dogs and dog bites, they have enough to do they don't want to do this. Yeah. And I've tried to say this to the legislature, you know, the police are not going to be happy with this, if they now have to help out with getting a stray dog are not trained, they don't know what to do. They don't know where to take them. So patients
mitch:that strays, which is a kind way of saying in some cases abandoned or neglected dogs data, you know, some of the we were talking earlier about some of these conditions are not just about poverty or naivety about about raising dogs, some of it is surrounding criminal activity. Right. Which, you know, that should be the focus. So, the dogs are not necessarily going to be their top
Mary Kennedy Withrow:right, sir. Right. And they're, you know, the wardens are also responsible for inspecting commercial kennels. That takes a lot. Yeah. And they're most of the time it's the wardens who, so wardens cannot enforce any kind of neglect or cruelty. Most of the humane calls when it comes to a commercial kennel, or made by a warden, and that's, you know, and when you think about in 2010, Governor red bell That's when we overdid dog law in Pennsylvania. And I know, people may not believe this, but we have the most strict laws when it comes to puppy mills in the country. We also are the only state that publishes our inspections online for public viewing. So that's the reason that people say, Oh, you're one of the worst in the country. Well, you can read our reports, you can see that somebody is doing their job. At least every state published their inspection reports. Yeah. Would Pennsylvania still fall in the top, whatever? Probably not.
mitch:Yeah. I mean, we and yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:And we used to have over 200 commercial panels, we have under 80. Now, most of that was because they couldn't afford to comply with the new laws. And a lot of that is because they got shut down, because they didn't. So we still have a big job for a warden.
mitch:Yeah, yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:You know, think of the wardens that are in like Lancaster. You know, they have a lot of work to do. Yeah, we really need this legislation. Really? Yeah. And once I know, like the bill number, and it's introduced, I'll put out a call to action. And, you know, maybe you can help me share that on, you know, your, you know,
mitch:anytime there's any Okay. Okay. Okay. chime in on or, or whatever. And you were right at the beginning of this part of the conversation, when we start to do licensing you said and that they benefit everybody? What are the benefits of dog licensing programs to a community? Like, why should I care about that? rabies,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:the borders are responsible for making sure that dogs have their rabies vaccine.
mitch:So when I read my dog every year, get my dog when I when I apply for my license, dog, I have to provide proof that they've had a rabies vaccine, but that they're current on a rabies,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:carrot. And that's why every year the license is one color and the rabies tag is a different color. Okay, so that when the warden and sometimes they do what's called a sweep, and they'll you know, check. And you know, if you're walking down the street with your dogs, they can see by the colors that you have, you know, cool. So now 2021 might be purple, and last year was red. So if you if they see you with purple, they know. Okay, she's okay.
mitch:Yeah. So.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:So what I mean by everybody benefits is, you know, they're protecting the community from something that's 99.9% fatal.
mitch:Yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:And then for going from stray dogs, you know, from a dog being on the run. Yeah.
mitch:That is really interesting. So many more things I want to talk about about dogs. But I also want to talk about well, I guess there are a couple of other dog things. You are also a dog trainer. Is that right? Very working. Working on doing that. You are you offering classes during this COVID stuff? Or? We've been working with anybody? It's hard to do.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Um, I have Well, I work with a really good trainer, Christine Flint, happy pets. Okay, um, and she's not comfortable. Going to and I'm probably not going to be going to houses now because of Alli. But she was doing a lot of zoom calls, but there were some that really needed somebody to to go. And sometimes I work with Lillian Akin. Yeah. So I would go for the ones that Christine was uncomfortable going to the home, I would go Yeah. But you know, right now not gonna be doing that. But I still do a lot of, you know, over the phone help. For me.
mitch:I mean, there's so much more to being a trainer than classes or, you know, private lessons or whatever. There's so much behavior. And, you know, if you're working with Lillian, I know, you know, you've probably done plenty of behavior evaluations.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:A ton of behavior evaluations. Yeah.
mitch:Yeah. And that's the best part of the dogfighting ring rehab process, you know? Yes. Who has potential
Mary Kennedy Withrow:I love doing behavior evaluations. Yeah. We should do a whole thing about that some time a whole episode love trying to make it as fun as possible to get them as relaxed as possible. And I always thought that was kind of one of my best things that I ever did. Yeah,
mitch:I mean, so important for dogs coming in. To shelters. I don't know a lot about the evaluation process. But I know that it can literally be the difference between life and death. Yeah, dog coming into many shelters, you know. And the methods used, really, in some cases really set the dog up for failure. So it is really important that people learn best practices and yeah, everything from timing to tools.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yep. Yeah. Yep.
mitch:Yeah, sometime, we'll, we'll have a whole episode about that. Okay. Um, I also want to ask you about the abused animal Relief Fund. This, I know that our friend Aaron, her father, jack started, started an animal relief fund in East Pittsburgh,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:correct.
mitch:This is a different one that you're involved with. Is that right? Right.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Mm hmm. Yeah, this was, um, john Weinstein, the county treasurer. And Deb Dugan. And Steve's a power started this fund. So it's the Allegheny abused animal Relief Fund. So I'm, I sit on the board. And it's the donations come through when you renew your dog license? Yeah, yeah. So and it's lots of, you know, $5 $10 smaller donations. So what we, where the money goes. So I've been on both sides of it. When I was humane investigations, we turned it into a verb, and we would say, you know, we can, we can do this case, because it's our full bowl. So we knew we would get reimbursed for the medical that we, you know, or at least a portion, you know, so, once a year, we ask the shelters or rescues that, you know, do work on, you know, animals that are neglected, or victims of cruelty, to submit their receipts. And we'd like to know the outcome animal. And that we take a look at everything and decide, you know, how much money we have to give to each group. Right? So, it usually mean there's usually about 100,000 in the fund. And
mitch:yeah, cuz otherwise those animals
Mary Kennedy Withrow:will see.
mitch:Yeah, um,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:so, um, it's, it's great. I'm trying to get more awareness to the fund. I'm trying to get, you know, get it so that you can donate on Facebook or like for my birthday, I want to have you know, donations go to the are great, because it can be you know, there's it can be a lot of money. You know, if you have a severely abused animal, it's just for medical expenses can be Yeah,
mitch:yeah. Tragic because that is the ultimate. A human let them down. Yeah. That's that's a good smile. Bought Amazon. Doc. Yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah. It's, it's great. JOHN has been an incredible treasure, really? I mean, he's kind of known as the dog treasure and I sit there proud as a peacock. When I go to board meetings in Harrisburg. Yeah, because Allegheny County sells over 100,000 dog licenses. And Philadelphia county is next. With like, 35,000 Whoa, yeah. Yeah, we go. And everybody always says, How does he do it? He goes on TV, he creates commercials with athletes. He puts it out there.
mitch:I mean, it's a super simple, quick process. So I mean, right. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, I would love to see a fund like that for lots of things related to animals like, like keeping pets in their homes when people can't afford, right there, you know, rendering euthanizing or, you know, helping people who are displaced. And you know, temporarily hang on to their pets program. paws, things like that. Yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah.
mitch:That's that's an aspiration I have for Pittsburgh Tails. If I ever get back to doing the nonprofit stuff,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:you know what you could look into on when I was at the Humane Society. I got a $50,000 grant. It was for people who came to the shelter to surrender for medical. Hmm. And we use the whole thing. And in one year, yeah. And it was, it was so great. There was nothing like telling somebody, we can send you to PVS. DC and pay for this. Yeah, you can keep your pet. Yeah, it was so great. Imagine was, yeah,
mitch:I know. And some people really don't have the resources. Yeah. You just don't have a choice. Right. You know, at least. Yeah. I mean, they're just, it's, it's tragic.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:I don't know if they still offer that grant. But if they do shelters ought to go for it. Yeah. Really? Yeah.
mitch:I always put a lot of links with every episode, everything that we do. Okay. So yeah, I'll look that up. Okay, now, I want to specifically talk about rabbits and cats. You're also an advisor for rabbit Wranglers.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Oh,
mitch:can you tell me about that organization? what they do?
Mary Kennedy Withrow:They're the best.
mitch:Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania has or Pittsburgh has more rabbits.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Its Burke is in the top five cities in the country to own a rabbit. I know. Yeah. And you know why? We have? Well, we have Dr. Wagner, who is one of the best vets for excuse me, exotics, and rabbits. And, uh, one of our vets from the Humane Society left there to go work with him for that reason. He's, he's really one of the top. No, Dr. Blauvelt. Great guy. So he's now working with Dr. waggler. But um, yeah, for rabbits and birds. So we have really good vet care for rabbits. And we have pet stores that carry really good stuff for rabbits. And believe it or not, not every city has that some cities don't even have a vet who knows how to care for a man. Yeah. Yeah.
mitch:I mean, yeah, really even knew anybody was rabbits for pets until I moved here. But,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:yeah, there's a lot of people that have rabbits in Pittsburgh. But rabbit Wranglers has been, you know, even when I was at the Humane Society, if we had an rabbits in a once they get sick, they they go down really quickly. And if I would call swas, you know, they would be there so fast. And they never say no. And there was a 500 plus rabbit cruelty case in Fort Worth, Texas. And we got it. I got a call from the Humane Society there to see if I could place any other rabbits. And it was amazing. We were able to take I think we took 30 some. Yeah. And rabbit Wranglers took all of those. And then later they took like another 40. Yeah. Yeah. But um, they're just so great. They really are. We're so lucky to have them. And they do a lot of educational stuff. And they do a lot of free grooming events. Oh, yeah. Totally free to people that have rabbits. Wow. Mm
mitch:hmm. grooming isn't just brushing for
Mary Kennedy Withrow:No, no. Your teeth nails? Yes. Lucky with Yep. We did it. Um, humane case with them. There was a guy in Mercer County. I don't know if you remember this. It was on the news. And he was dying. And his family reached out for help. It was 77 rabbits when all of the males had syphilis. Oh my god. Yeah. We went up there with swas
mitch:and a team of this. What are you calling them swans.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:swans is? She is one of the founders of rabbit Wranglers. Oh, it's a percent birthday.
mitch:I thought that was an abbreviation for something. I was like, What are she? Sorry? She
Mary Kennedy Withrow:works at animal friends. She's the greatest. She really? Yeah. So talk about wrangling rabbits. I've never seen anybody work like her. And we took a couple vet techs with us. And I was driving the van. Yeah. And you know, they thump when they're scared. They really do like Thumper. Yeah, I'm driving down 79 I must have had 40 in the van with me and the whole way home, you know, one with thumb. And another one with dump the whole way home. And we set up in the room at the Humane Society, like a whole triage area. And everybody got checked out. Everybody got trampled. And yeah, and then they took all of them and they all went into foster. Wow. Yeah, it was great. They kind of took the whole thing on when we helped out, but
mitch:they're really rewarding to do that, like the space. Yeah. The rabies clinics and stuff the vaccine. Yeah, we I really, that's one of the few great things I've done at the shelter in the past couple of years and really rewarding and so important, and I really hope that there are ways to do those safely, soon. Yeah, yes. All right. And then last, I want to talk about our cats. Okay. So you're on the board of the homeless cat management team? Correct.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Um, I, you were their advocate. For
mitch:our go,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:huh? Um, so at our board meetings, I go to bat for them. And I just started doing that. I think two years ago.
mitch:Okay. Yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Because there were no other cat organizations that got any help through barf. Yeah. And I knew I knew what they were doing.
mitch:Yeah.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:And wanted them to be able to keep doing what they were doing. And then Pittsburgh cat, you know, became kind of a, an arm of theirs. Um, so I, Margo gives me all the receipts. Okay. Um, I do the rest of the report. And then at the board meetings, I fight for them.
mitch:Yeah, that's, yeah, the cat community is
Mary Kennedy Withrow:a thing. And there's some unbelievable the stuff that she gives to me. And sometimes the photos, because I'd like to show people, you know, yes. Then and here's the now.
mitch:Yeah. And that
Mary Kennedy Withrow:can really have a, you know, because they can see the now I wouldn't ever show just the before. Yeah, but when I can say this is what the cat looked like, and this is it now. Yeah. Um, but my God. Yeah. I mean, some of the conditions.
mitch:Yeah. It's, I mean, just the things I see on Facebook, the shares that people yeah, post when there's, you know, and there, it's not just abused animals, but also, you know, animals with all kinds of injuries and wounds that won't know where they came from. Right. I just it's so hard to think about an animal suffering an injury like that, and, and thinking about how scary they must have been, what they've been, what they've gone through between the time of injury and getting, you know, you finding them
Mary Kennedy Withrow:suffering? It's Yeah,
mitch:it's just heartbreaking to think and then. So it's so heartening when they make it and so heartbreaking when they, when they don't, they don't do it. When you find someone who is willing to help, and they do what they can, and it's too late, you know, it's just a saddest. It's the, you know, people I hear, I've heard on Facebook and elsewhere, people complain a lot about rescues and how, you know, hard they make it to adopt and how expensive it is, and why can't they take care of, you know, people have lots of complaints about people in the rescue community. And I just, I just want to remind people, I mean, there are certainly, you know, rotten eggs, like there are everywhere, but the people who are in rescue might not be the friendliest of people sometimes because they see what people do to animals and they can be very hardened to that because their hearts are so big for animals that they just you just it's hard to get past that to look at an individual as an individual. I'm not saying they might be the next person who you know, I don't want to see this dog and up like that dog or whatever. It's hard to associate. It is hard. I mean, you remember my first foster litter and I had smack dab, and I loved him so much. And I was so attached. And then that story ended up badly, which had nothing to do with the adopters, but ended up badly. And that's a story for another episode but but years later, I had another foster kitten being adopted by a family with a small child. And I just, it was, no matter how much I told myself that this child was nothing like, you know, and the other children in the first and snack tabs family were great to know, like, there's nothing wrong with that family. But my experience with that was so difficult. Just a trauma associated made it really hard for me to be passed any of that to this great family, I did fortunately and that they're happy. They're, they're a wonderful family, wonderful cat owners, but you, you know, those associations can be so visceral, that you know, convince yourself out of
Mary Kennedy Withrow:it. So
mitch:you've seen things that you've seen what Aaron seen what humane officer see what inspectors see that it's, you know, some of those memories are so yeah, that it's got to be very difficult to still be kind to people. And you know,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:it sometimes it just hits you so hard. Yeah. You know, it's like a I call them stray bullets just out of nowhere. Yeah. And, you know, I did, you know, have somebody that I talked to a lot about it. Yeah. helped me a lot.
mitch:It's real trauma.
Mary Kennedy Withrow:Yeah, I was at the point where I really, really felt like, I want dogs to, I want them to be extinct, so that nobody can hurt them anymore.
mitch:Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is it is trauma, any kind of, you know, when people downplay pet death, or pet injuries, or missing pets, or whatever. You know, our attachments to those animals is as strong as any attachment to any human in my opinion. I'm not a parent, so I can't speak to that route. But anything else I've ever experienced, it's, it's every bit as strong. And so when, even if you're not present for it, your brain, you can still experience polio stress, you can still experience it as a real trauma and people need to be gentle with themselves and each other, when it's like that happen. Yep. I cannot thank you enough for your more than an hour and a half talking. Cover, you know, half of the subjects we could but we will do more another time. And I hope that you will keep me posted on not just legislation, but also your own path and activities. And if there's anything that I can do to help Of course, let me know because I will always do it. Okay. I love you bunches and I would love you too soon. Okay,
Mary Kennedy Withrow:thanks so much. This was fun. Okay, bye.