pittsburgh tails
pittsburgh tails
Andrew on training and learning
I spoke with Andrew Marrangoni, longtime dog trainer and entrepreneur, about his businesses, training dogs, and learning. Contains one swear word.
Welcome to Pittsburgh tales, a podcast about the creatures in western Pennsylvania and people who care for and about them. I'm your host, Mitch Bernard. Today, I'd like to share my conversation with Andrew Marangoni, a dog trainer, and entrepreneur, and joy.
lisa mitch bernard:I want to start by talking about what you do currently with dogs with your business. Maybe starting with Steel City pack leader where you got that name from?
Unknown:Sure, uh, well, uh, so Steel City pack leader was founded in 2008. And when so here's how I became a dog trainer and where I got that name is I used to be a chef. And I had gotten a pitbull, from a friend of mine, and then kind of within a few weeks, another friend of mine had also gotten a pitbull, and then their landlord found out and was done a threatened to kick them out. So now I pitbulls
lisa mitch bernard:and rabies adults are now they're both. Okay,
Unknown:so they were young dogs, and I was very young. I was 2020 years old.
lisa mitch bernard:So you have some energy still?
Unknown:Yeah, and you know, dogs are great. No, it's all about having a dog. I knew. I had some friends who had some really great Pitbull dogs and like, like, they're, they're great dogs. Yeah. And it's funny because it was like, that situation where I was naive enough to be like, Oh, it's all in how you raised them. And you know, I got these two female Pitbull puppies, and everything's gonna be fine. And then you start to learn. And, you know, through no fault of my own, it was just naive actions, not giving them enough exercise, not giving them enough their own individual attention. training in Pittsburgh, right. At that time was like, not what it is today, for sure. Yeah. And so they started having problems, and then the one became kind of human aggressive. So I decided that that's that. Yeah. Um, so fast forward a few more years, I am still cooking, and I breed my dog to make extra money. And, you know, one of the one of those after the fact like, oh, I'll knock out my dog, and then I have all this time to research. And then I research. What I did was backyard breeding, and was like, a terrible thing. And I was like, Oh, my God, what have I done? And so, I was like, I'm gonna be super responsible. And I'm gonna, you know, make sure that all these puppies get good homes. And two of the puppies ended up being kind of aggressive right off the bat. Wow, that that's scary.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah.
Unknown:And so I decided to keep those two plus. And at that time, my friend had a dog walking business. And Cesar Millan was on every channel, and I was like, This dude, got it. He knows everything.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah, look how good those dogs are.
Unknown:Right? Little did we know. Yeah. And so that was I started to really like, work with dogs and understand and I went to try to learn from him. And that wasn't an option. So I went to a online certification from animal behavioral college. And, you know, became a certified dog trainer that way. And at that time, I definitely that was my first insight to learning that he wasn't that much of a dog trainer as much of a dog handler.
lisa mitch bernard:It's a good, yeah, good distinction.
Unknown:Right? Because I think one of the biggest distinctions is that handlers worry about controlling the dogs and dog trainers worry about teaching the dogs how to control themselves.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah, that's very good. That's very helpful.
Unknown:And, you know, that stuff looks good on TV. Fighting, it's, you know, it's so like in in, in in voting. And, you know, from a marketing standpoint, it's great. Yeah, right. Watching classical conditioning and like doing it the right way is not good TV, I would say. Yes.
lisa mitch bernard:There it's like
Unknown:it's such a more like when you actually see the dogs interacting on a day to day life and they are happy and their body language is good and their tail wags You know, they're just sitting there like, Can I do something? Or you don't punish?
lisa mitch bernard:Yes.
Unknown:Right so the the program that I went through animal behavioral college at that point was still very like balanced approach. It was like, all of all the quadrants and you do everything and you start positive, and then you work your way back kind of like Lima before it was really like announced leave, I guess. Yeah. So
lisa mitch bernard:for our listeners who might not know what those quadrants are, or what Lima is, can you give us a quick definition? Maybe we'll come back to them if you want to? Because I do want to hear the rest of your story.
Unknown:Yes, absolutely. Um, so, um, quick, a quick dive into the science of dog training. Basically, how Dog Training works, there's two principles that are always kind of at work. One is Pavlov classical conditioning is just dogs making associations what's happening at any current period of time, they're associating with their environment with what they're seeing what they're experiencing. And then there is operant conditioning, which is basically what we know is like obedience commands is the operator has a choice to, you know, affect the world through consequence, is I say, set the dog sits, it gets a reward. Gotcha. Um, so in operant, conditioning, there are four quadrants. And this is what usually destroys everybody's minds, because their vocabulary words that people jumble around, right? Or quadrants are positive, reinforced, or positive, negative reinforcement and punishment. And the clarification in this, that is so important for people to understand is that positive just means to add. And negative just means to remove or subtract. It has nothing to do with the value of what you're doing.
lisa mitch bernard:That's a great explanation. Yeah.
Unknown:So positive reinforcement means to add something to increase behavior. Reinforcement means increase behavior, punishment means remove or decrease behavior. Okay. Now, the other thing that people need to understand about this is that it is only to describe what you have done. So if you try to give a dog a piece of food, and your behavior does not increase, it's not positive reinforcement. Right? Right. Okay. It is a failed attempt at positive reinforcement, right? Because you are trying to get the dog to do something. Yeah. And that's why I kind of laugh when people say it doesn't work. And I was like, no, it works. It can only work. Yeah. Because because it can only be labeled after the fact. Yeah, okay. Something you can actively use.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah.
Unknown:So in that mind, when people say like, what kind of techniques Do you use, you don't really have a choice is what you do is being labeled. So, Fernandez, for instance, if you use negative reinforcement, which a lot of other like the Cesar Milan types do, which is the release of pressure to increase behavior. Now, that is what they are seeing. But I can also say at that time, you are also punishing moving in any other direction, you're also hitting the ground, you're also punishing like positive punishing. So at the same time, that you are negatively reinforcing a behavior, one behavior, you are positively punishing all other behaviors. And the same goes for positive reinforcement is when you are concentrating on sitting down or laying down or paying attention to me, you are negatively punishing all other behaviors because you're with removing practice and and attention from everything else and All putting it into that one moment. Interesting. Okay.
lisa mitch bernard:I never thought about that before.
Unknown:Not a lot of people do think of it that way. Yeah. Because they get it all jumbled in their head. They like to tie in positive with good and negative with bad. Yeah. And punishment with mean.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's a confusing matrix.
Unknown:It is because a lot of people are like, Well, why why is popping a dog called positive punishment is because you're adding the pup to decrease whatever behavior you're trying to punish. Right. And so that, that that's the science behind it. That is no marketing. No, no bullshit, right?
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah, they typically proven
Unknown:Yes, sorry, I don't know. I didn't mean to swear on your podcast.
lisa mitch bernard:I didn't even know.
Unknown:Anyway, so that's your science lesson for the
lisa mitch bernard:day. Lima.
Unknown:As for Lima, it it's an acronym for least invasive, minimally aversive, which means that there's trying to not come up and flip the dog on its head. And you want to change things slowly over time. And I think that's the main thing people need to realize with dog training is that it is a behavioral change for you and your dog to simultaneously always being addressing and moving forward and getting better. So you should only really be basing your progress on where you were yesterday, instead of trying to compare it to everything around you. Yeah, that's good. That's good. And right, the same thing goes for anything else that you you want to actually accomplish is stop comparing yourself to everything else. And where are you? And what skills do I need to, you know, men develop, create, to keep moving forward? Part of the issue, I believe, is that the business of dog training is severely broken? Because it is, it is problem. Focused oriented. Instead of solution based, like understanding of what you're actually seeing, instead of like, this is bothering me, how do I stop that?
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah, like, for, correct me, if I'm wrong, there's also not as much. Because from a business standpoint, it's probably harder to emphasis on the relationship over time, sort of the daily, minute by minute interactions that you have with your dog, or your cat. It's not just tricks, it's not just, you know, or like, stop barking or stop chewing the furniture or whatever, there's, you know, it training for it. For us, at least in our house, we try to make it a it's about how we communicate with the dog and vice versa. Sort of understanding that, and that's not really an easy sell. You know, and like you said, there's a lot of a lot of businesses around training are about solving these behavior problems, because that's when people think of training as being necessary. Like if you don't train your dog, unless you want to go get tricks, do tricks, or it's having some kind of problem otherwise, you know, why bother? Right?
Unknown:That's right. And anyway, it's like the same thing that we go through with children is like, we don't teach them soft skills in school either, right? Yes. Yeah. And that that's what the problem is, is that's what it's missing is, you can't just change behavior, like you have to make sure that your meeting needs and you're taking care of an animal. Yeah, a lot of times, you know, because I laugh all the time, because I see it on Facebook is like even parents are like, yeah, if you have a bunch of bad behavior, like give everyone a glass of water and see what that does, because, yeah, you know, our behaviors, so driven by our, our inability to understand what we're lacking what we need and how to be fulfilled in general.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah, go true.
Unknown:Right, that I think that's why a lot of people are, you know, always one way or the other like,
lisa mitch bernard:wow,
Unknown:yes. Yeah. Trying to reel that in. And, you know, the other thing about dog training is is that You, you're walking, you're walking all aspects of life is all people own dogs. So, you know, the longer you've been doing it, the more and more that you kind of have a ability to attract the kind of people that you would hope to want to attract into your business. Right. But there's a lot of work to be done for young, young trainers and people getting into this business and trying to learn how to balance good ethical work. And you know, yeah, eventually you're gonna have to learn some people skills, or, or find a mentor where you're working under them and just the dogs. Yeah, it gets. There's a lot to it. It's not just teaching, sit down, come stay like you can do that in an afternoon. Right? Right. At least the base, like, this is how you do it. Yeah. One of the things that I kind of lead into is like, it's, it's like people don't realize it, like it's any other skill that needs to be built, like a sport or learning an instrument is, once you learn how to do the basics, then you know it, they're building blocks of like getting better. And you're year after year and season of great growth and continuous going on. Like that's what gets to those super well trained dogs. Yeah.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah, when I first I want to get back to your, to your path, your path from there to where you are now. But I just wanted to say that I remember. The first time I watched the Nando brown video and seeing oh my gosh, now I forgotten what her name is. says, you know that Do you know who Nana Brown, he's this trainer in the UK, I think who I'll send you a link. He's got some great videos. And he's he's all about these, this kind of scientific approach evidence based training and and he did a series when he got himself a Belgian Malinois of raising her from a puppy to adulthood. And it's called raising fears. And he did videos all the time. And this dog was just unbelievably well trained. Because I mean, these are incredibly smart dogs, and he was an experienced good trainer, and he put all this time into it. So what do you get when you put that together? And yeah, the first couple times I saw some of those videos, I was like, yeah, I'm never gonna get that's just not. That's, that's pretty. It's amazing to see like some of those really well trained dogs. And I think it's really, the thing that makes me so happy about seeing a well trained dog like that, or any well trained animal is knowing the relationship that went into that. into, you know, the work that that person and that dog had to put in together, and the time that that person had to devote to that dog. Anyway, I want to get back to your path. Thanks for the detour. Don't worry.
Unknown:I mean, I think what we just talked about is one of those things that is not heard often enough. And it is, you know, it's the leading part of my mission is creating good ethical care, and it can be done. Because I've done it in every fashion. So I'm not just speaking from a value standpoint, it was the most from experience. Yeah. I I went through all these things. I've trained that my personal dogs both ways. Yeah. No shortcomings of everything. Yeah. You know, it's kind of gotten me to a, to a very unique place.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah.
Unknown:You know, cuz I'm still very young in my career.
lisa mitch bernard:I was just gonna say like, you're a young man. So, I mean, a lot of people much older than you have not tried the different schools of thought and, and had an opportunity to come to that conclusion based on experience.
Unknown:Right, and I've put my my business through lots and lots of changes. You know, I tried to go the whole dog daycare route, even franchising that and working people who are doing that, and I thought that was definitely like, Well, I'll tell you how that ties into the path. Okay, so I became a certified trainer. And then I started to really start having success as a, you know, balanced trainer, but I primarily use positive reinforcement. I didn't like going to the aversive methods. But like, at that moment, my career, I was still willing to do it because it seemed to be accepted still. Yeah. And then that we saw the big push, positive coming in. And at that point, I was at that first stage of real growth for an entrepreneur, which is I'm at capacity I can't do anymore. And that was crazy. Because like, this was before social media. So this was like, my word of mouth and being on Craigslist. Yeah.
lisa mitch bernard:The days.
Unknown:Right, but like, yeah, people were like, Oh, I read about you on Craigslist. That's great. You're like the Super Trainer. And, you know, those aversive methods in in the moment, they look real, like you're getting what you want.
lisa mitch bernard:But what I do like they work,
Unknown:right. But what I happened was is that I because I was also walking dogs, because at that point, I was like, Well, if I'm going to get better as a trainer, I need to be surrounded by dogs all the time. So if I can't convince people to train with me, I can at least teach them or charge them to take care of their dog or walk their dog. It's less money than like a training session. But it gives me the experience with the dog. And then I also have to answer a bunch of questions. So I get to like, work through everything. Plus, there was no expectation. Yeah. So I I started developing then that I was like, Hmm, maybe just caring for dogs is really, the way to do this is training isn't that actually important? And it isn't, it isn't, like understanding what you're doing with your dog is very important. But when we talk about actual training, which is like a dog listening to a verbal cue, right, because that's really what dog training is about is cueing behavior. Outside of that, it's caring for the animal. Yeah, every everything else is is actually more geared towards just making sure that the animal has safety, security, food, water, shelter, all the things that it needs to thrive. And what I discovered was, it was just an easier, better business model to be a trainer who helps people with their dogs, instead of being like, I'll fix all your problems.
lisa mitch bernard:I'll be like, yeah,
Unknown:let me help you take better care of your dog. So you can see that you don't need to do that. Yeah. And, you know, when I went through everything with the dog daycare, and I realized that the same thing kind of was going there, it's just like, when you're packing them all in on top of each other like that. You're not caring for them anymore.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah.
Unknown:And I was like, that was very detrimental to me, because making that understanding and acceptance of like, this business model really kind of destroys dogs. Yeah. And, like, putting so much of my time into it, like years, and so much money lost that I just had to walk away from. But um, yeah. That's what gets you through life, though. Right? And yes, but what brings you around what creates resilience? What creates better solutions in life? You know, is I learned through experience?
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah.
Unknown:And when you learn through experience, you gain much more perspective than you do from just following along somebody who's led the way already. Yeah. And who's just be like, Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this. Like sometimes that's very beneficial to you. Yeah. Because, you know, they're, they've been there and maybe they know why. Yeah, but I've also learned that you know, it your trust. This is slowly waning, from from existence amongst me. Yeah,
lisa mitch bernard:you know,
Unknown:I have to go experience this stuff for myself. And When you do that, you get this very real real eye, you know, a picture of what's going on. Yeah. So what ended up happening was after I went through all this, at this capacity place where I want to grow, and how do you grow is you, you learn about personal growth and what it takes to grow yourself as a human being. And then doing that. You know, basically, I learned human behavior after dog behavior. And what I learned about both things is that they're pretty much identical. Because we're, it's, it's just animal behavior, right? The only thing that really changes is humans, you know, get caught up in all our, like, mental stuff. Where were people for people are like, why do you like dogs so much? I was like, because they inherently accept what's good for them. They don't they don't shoot themselves in the foot like we do. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Because I, I'm guilty of it. Because I'm a human being, and we're all guilty of understanding will find a better way, or there's a way around this. Yeah. And that we don't want to do will rationalize around and blah, blah, blah, until you get to that point where you're like, Oh, I need to make a change. You know, I've done that enough times now. I, I am now here. Yeah. Um, so, that brings us to today, where we are in a pandemic, and that definitely had me have to change a lot of things. I had to go online, or some things. But in the last few years, I've been working closely with a dog training client of mine, who is a human coach. Oh, cool. And when he, um, he, he, he was an FBI agent before that, and an engineer before that. He's a
lisa mitch bernard:lot of people like that.
Unknown:Right. And he's younger than I know. Exactly. Anyway, so when I, I was helping him with his dog, and he started making this transition. And he, you know, basically offered me a chance to, like, go through his program to to help my business.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah, that's great.
Unknown:And so we started doing this. And I was like, Man, this is like, dog training for people. Yeah. for business. And I was like, really just creating a plan and sticking with it, isn't it? He was like, yeah. So what we're trying to do is what we did is we combined everything I know about running a good ethical, pet care business, and what he knows about, you know, initially starting helping people understand the better foundation or being a coach. And we created pet care coaching. And that's one of the things that we were trying to launch at the beginning last year. But we have all the criteria and we have the foundation for building a great network of quality pet professionals in the Pittsburgh area. Wow. Want to kind of help people save some some pet owners some frustration. Like the the kind of Uber model pet care that's out there. You're dumping them into a daycare where they're, you know, five people and 100 dogs. It's not a good ratio. Yeah, it's, it's not good. So what we're trying to do is, is show people that, you know, there's an entrepreneurial way to ethically help people with their pets, that has almost limitless potential for growth because you can grow it in you can grow as a groomer, you can grow as a trainer you can become you can add pet sitting services, like every skill that you learn with a pet is marketable. And helping people identify a purpose and you know, being able to care for animals and become a leader in that fashion gives them the strength to then lead people That's what we need in the world right now is better leaders, for sure. And, you know, one of the things that's so important for people to realize is that independence is great. But you can only get so far in the world all by yourself, like, you have to work with other people, other businesses, and you have to work. And everyone has to do their share, we have to take responsibility for what's ours and help when we can and do those things. And that's what we're trying to kind of develop now is this community of let's work together and let's stop all suffering the same problems.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah. Over and over again.
Unknown:Yes, we're all doing it. We all talk about it. You know, we're all we're all commiserating, we all have the same issues. Let's talk about solving these issues instead of why there's, you know, the problem is, is that we're problem focused. And the problem is, is that we keep saying that statement, the problem is, no one say solution is
lisa mitch bernard:because it's more work. Yeah, it's very hard to identify a solution. Sometimes
Unknown:it is, um, and so, you know, we, I start building this business, and then COVID comes down and, and kind of changes not only the plan for that business, but my own personal business. Because, you know, if everyone's at home, they don't necessarily see the value of having a dog walker. Yeah, especially cuz we also know that not all of these people who are going to eight hour days have eight hours of work to do. So it really had to help. You know, it had me identifying and reevaluating, alright, well, where do I still have value for people in care for their animals, because they're still struggling? Like, everyone has questions about their animals. And, you know, I, I want to try to help people understand that, like, a lot of it's just your thinking, and and you get all caught up in everything, instead of saying, what's happening in this moment? Is this something I want to have happen? Cool, reinforce it, if it's not ignore it, or ask it to do something else. Yeah, I mean, it's really that simple in that moment, is there's a book called The slight edge. And it is about making small microscopic choices throughout your day. And basically saying that all these choices that I made, that gave me traction in my life, or dragged me towards my goals, got me this much liquid in my cup, where it says that did not remove the liquid. And it's more about, you know, creating a daily habit where you keep that cup filled through habits. Yeah, it's a it's a fantastic book. In the pre, in the pre log, he goes through all these stories of long distance change, or basically what he calls like, compounding interest of behavior. And the analogy that I like, because it's the quickest of them, is that a satellite going through the universe to its destination, wherever it's going is only on course, 6% of the time. The rest of the time, it's adjusting back on course.
lisa mitch bernard:Well,
Unknown:because it, that's, that's how you move through space and time is you. It's not direct line, there are going to be obstacles, there's going to be things that take you away and bring you back. And that's why, you know, we've, I've started helping people tie in their values and their foundation and, and understanding their needs, into their pets needs, and making sure that those things are aligned. Yeah. Um, and so we also have a podcast. That's cool. It's called the resilient mind. And it's about how we communicate and in talking grow with people. Yeah. Um, anyway, I got sidetracked again.
lisa mitch bernard:That's okay. Oh, good.
Unknown:I know. So in the midst of all this other stuff during COVID, I really started to tap into the ability to understand behavior and how it works. And we are actually in a great time to change our habits. Yes, as humanity because nothing. I mean, we all we don't even know what to do with ourselves because our behavior was so badly interrupted. Yeah. And so what we're seeing is the people who are creative and who are in touch with who they are really just kind of tap into as I have more time to do these things. And I love blah, blah, blah, and they're right on it. Yeah. And then people who are driven by the world,
lisa mitch bernard:yeah.
Unknown:are like, I don't know what to do. You know, they, they're, they have lost identity, you know, they're out there, you know, discovering Yeah, God knows what on the internet and, and start start that whole wandering in the mind thing. So I'm starting to really like, see all this stuff, transcend into my real today, today life. And one of the things that I said to you before is that dog training as a product is super, super broken. And I was like, Well, how do I fix that? And I was like, you come up with a solution. And so one of the behavioral books I was reading was about errorless. Learning. And what errorless learning is, is that you make the correct answer so obvious, as you slow, mildly, start adding distraction that the learner is almost 100% always making the correct decision. And this was done with pigeons, and it was done in a box where they were taught to pull a lever. And the quote that came out of the study was it's not about a trainer who can make the best connections with pigeons. But it's about a trainer who can create a box for where they can learn.
lisa mitch bernard:Oh, cool. Yeah.
Unknown:So I was looking, I also made a very huge connectivity to environment drives behavior, because I was avidly working out until I couldn't go to the gym anymore. Even though I had virtual and equipment here. My House did not trigger me to exercise even though the habit was so so ingrained, like it was that I've been doing it three days a week for over a year. Why did I miss the gym? Yeah, so I decided that I was going to create a an environment for learning about dogs. So we now have a fear free center in Allentown called alltogether. Better cool. It is a dog Education Center, and my girlfriend, Courtney, who you also know, has a grooming salon out of the back of there. So we are now trying to offer people really what they need is a safe environment for learning about building their relationship with their pet. And understanding. Like the goal isn't to have, you know, one client for three weeks and then I'll never talk to you again. It's about creating a place where you can feel comfortable going back to time and time again, to practice, learn, play with your dog, get care for dog get support as a dog owner from professionals, who truly care, right? Like I just want to see people succeed and their dogs be happy. Yeah. In my eyes, dogs are pretty brilliant. I don't even think cats were I think we selected cats. But dogs selected us to evolve with. Um, which is very interesting, huh, that these these intelligent young wolves decided to start teaming up with humans, because it was more beneficial to them and to the to the humans. So we owe them you know, just as much as we owe all the other founding people of the country and you know that. So my goal is always to make sure that People are happy and the dogs are happy. Um, it's kind of what my purpose is. And I've, I've discovered that over over this long break, is that that's, that's all I really got to give is this knowledge that I've accumulated and filtered through and put through the test on 1000s and 1000s, and 1000s of dogs. And I say that taking care of them is the best way to eliminate all your behavioral problems. And then if there's still residual stuff, working with a great understanding trainer, usually help you with the rest. But get educated and learn what you can do for yourself. And don't base it off of, is it perfect? Is it getting better? Like that's the main thing is fooling around with it. Make it fun. And the more fun that is, the more you'll learn, the more your dog will learn. And the more you'll realize that you don't you have so much more ability to influence your dog's behavior than you ever imagined. You just tap into that?
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah, we just don't know. We just don't know how, for the most part, or, or there's more of a payoff, to do something else than to than to focus on that situation, which is usually my issue that I, you know, yeah, it's just easier to not to just try to live with whatever the behavior is, and go do my work or my hobby or whatever. Then to really think about, okay, how do I, how do I fix this, or if I know how to fix it, and it just feels too hard, you know, oh, just never work, it will take too long, whatever. So the name of the project you're on with this human coach, his pet care coaching.
Unknown:It's called Pittsburg pet care.com.
lisa mitch bernard:Okay, it's right here. And that's the same as this physical location out in the Allentown neighborhood you're talking about,
Unknown:though, kind of so just just for business purposes, they are separate entities. Oh. So they are think of them as like brothers sister companies is 111 is helping the other. One is one. One is a place for the other business to have basically, altogether betters goal is to enrich the community and empower people to connect with playing with their dog working with their dog taking care of their dog. So what we'll be doing, there will be a combination, hopefully, once COVID kind of dissipates is where we will be doing some community outreach stuff. Bite prevention
lisa mitch bernard:work. Yeah.
Unknown:You know, hopefully doing some free education. And and really trying to start doing more preventative work with with dog training is, again, like I said earlier in the interview is I think it's imperative that we start teaching soft skills to our dogs the same way we should do it with children. This is teaching them how to interact with the world. Yeah. You know, when your dog gets all bent out of shape, you most people are like, Oh, stop, stop doing that. But if we think about it as what do we want them to do? We want them to relax. So what you what you do is you just be calm for a second, and when the dog relaxes, focus on that. That's one way of looking at it. I mean, there are lots of different ways of working with animals, but it's it's very simple, but incredibly nuanced.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Because Yeah, life is complicated and we're complicated.
Unknown:Right, and you know, there's the way that I like to put it is like if you want behavior to resemble something, then You're sculpting, and be very careful the tools you choose because what you remove sometimes can't be put back.
lisa mitch bernard:Right.
Unknown:So that's why I don't recommend using a jackhammer right off the bat.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah, and get to know your material really well before you start cutting. Um, yeah,
Unknown:that's also a good one, like, you know, just getting people when they rescue a dog to take that two month period and let that dog decompress and become a customer. And the other thing that they should think about is how do I want this dog to behave in my house and kind of guide them and show them that? And, you know, I I know that I was definitely a product of reactive parenting. Like, my mom was always trying to keep up with what I've done now. Yeah. And it was because I wasn't given. I wasn't given proper outlets for things like I, you know, I came home and attended after school as a teenager. Yeah. Idle hands are the devil's playground. Yeah, that's why why I tried to explain to people why play and like engagement with your dog is so important. And also to be aware of when your dogs engaging to like, because just because it's not your it's not convenient on your time that your dog wants to engage with you, doesn't mean you should ignore them at that point. Yeah. Different behavioral issues later in the day, right? Or just being mindful of what their behavior is trying to tell you. You know, if they start crying and whining in your face, and it's close to dinnertime, chances are they're hungry. Yeah. You don't have to make them wait. You don't just fall into their whim. But you say, okay, you're hungry. And then maybe go ask them to sit down as you feed them. Or play or play a game with some of their food? Cuz Yeah, I'm a big advocate of ditching the bowl in general. Yeah.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah.
Unknown:Yeah. pebble was definitely, you know, an experience for the dog. is one way of looking at it.
lisa mitch bernard:Oh, yeah. It's a good, it's a good um, we, when we're doing more training, we like to use, you know, the meal is the, at least the beginnings of the treats. Maybe not the high value stuff. But you know, for the, for the basic stuff. Simple.
Unknown:In the house, simple, easy things. kibble is great.
lisa mitch bernard:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And for stuff like shaping, you know, behaviors or something that's, yeah, that you're just going to be sitting there like, a bunch. So right now, if someone, some member of the public wanted to use your services in some way, how, what could they do? And how would they go about working with you to get there? Like what I'm so for right now.
Unknown:So, right now I'm offering, I'm going to be offering a dropping class. Which is basically like you just come for one session and learn what you can learn. It very simple is like, we're gonna learn one or two things, and you're gonna practice. Yeah. Cuz one of the things that I've realized is that, like, people know what to do. It's not that they don't know what to do with their dogs. They don't know what to do. They're just not doing it mindfully or consistently or in a fashion that is effective. Yeah. Or in a fashion that is effective to the expectation that they want, which is another problem. And yes, it is evolving those things up. Anyway. Um, so through Steel City, pack leader, website, you can access my schedule where you can book virtual appointments, you can book play it all together better. You can put private sessions that all together better and there will be this group class option. And the great thing about all together better is you should just stay tuned because that will be an ongoing, ever growing business offering new innovative ways of thinking about spending time with your dog.
lisa mitch bernard:That's cool.
Unknown:It is. It's something that a lot of people I know they want. Now that I've kind of delivered it to them. They're like, I'm not sure how, how to do it. But it's I feel like it was kind of like Uber, right? is when when I first heard about it, I was like, there's no way I'm getting in the street. Yeah, right. You know, and I kind of feel it's kind of that way, too, is just, like, out of nowhere. Because, again, like I said, I've built my business before iPhone even was invented. Yeah. So, you know, it took it took a year of a pandemic to even get me off a waitlist. But, again, I built this place, and you know, some people would be like, well, I'm gonna go play with my dog in a, in a, in a building while some guy watches that's kind of weird. But
lisa mitch bernard:I mean, I was just telling some folks yesterday how much I hate dog parks, because they're just uncontrolled. You have no idea who the other people are, who that what the other dogs are, what their, you know, emotional, you know, their effect is what their social skills are. I mean, you just, everything is unknown, everything. And so to really, you know, encourage them to find dots that playdates with people, they know people who are dog savvy dogs who are dog savvy, you know, don't don't grow a group, like huge right away. And you know, start with familiar and controllable because, you know, so many things can go wrong. My I, you said something earlier about dog daycare, and how it can just destroy a dog. And I thought, Oh, god, my dad recently adopted a second dog who's puppyish, I think he'd be on and she's got a lot more energy than they're done on their first dog who is a couple years old. And so they take the second puppy to dog daycare. A couple days a week or every day, I don't know, to give the older dog a little time to just kind of chill. And I thought, Oh, God, you know, what if puppy is, you know, not okay, or whatever. I mean, I have some time where I would love to do like 20 more of these interviews, because I think you have a lot of interesting things to talk about. One of them would be how to choose dog daycare, or dog, whether that's in a group setting, or having someone come over or, you know, individual, dog walker, or whatever, like how do you healthily and safely keep your dog happy during the day, even if you have to work. And especially how to make that continue to be true, even after you're not home all the time. For those of us who are. I mean, I work from home full time, for many years before this. So for my animals, it's not that much of a change. But for most people who are able to work from home now they're gonna continue to do that forever. So, because most people like to be around other people. So, yeah, so sometime, I'd really love to pick your brain about that, too.
Unknown:Yeah, absolutely. Um, and, you know, even if you wanted to do so many episodes about the different types of care or how to do a trainer, how to pick a good trainer, any of that stuff. You know, it? It's hard to say, because I, I would, I wish it was easy, but you have to educate yourself first. And I think what you should do is spend a good amount of time just researching dog training and experiment for yourself of, you know, what, what you are capable of doing with your own dog. Yeah. And just knowing a little bit goes a long way. It's a it's an interesting 8020 rule. We all heard of 8020 rules, right? So this 8020 rule comes from a man who wrote the four hour workweek. Yeah, I can't remember his name right off the top of my head. Anyway, he's a fascinating guy. But he said that 20% of the knowledge of a skill will usually give you about 80% of the proficiency of the skill. And I find that to be very true is because if you think about, you know, expansive learning, as you know, a lot of times the biggest difference between really good and pretty good is like another 10,000 hours of practice. Yeah,
lisa mitch bernard:yeah. Yeah, that's like that curve goes way up as you're doing the initial learning. And then you hit a certain point, and it's very tiny improvements. over a long,
Unknown:yeah, they're their whole plateau. And, yeah, they're also another, like a quadrant of there is. What is it? I can't think off the top of my head. But it's like being aware that you are not good. So it's like understanding that you are bad at something, and then becoming aware of how bad you are, and then understand that you're like, good, but not fully understanding yet. And then you get to a point where, like, you have full understanding, and you're not aware of how good you are.
lisa mitch bernard:Definitely not there with training yet. I'm not a bad trainer. But yeah, I have, I have definitely failed my dog, Fred. And
Unknown:yeah, you have it, he's alive, right?
lisa mitch bernard:He's alive. He's alive. He's healthy. He's happy, reasonably, but he really wants to be only don't look, and only pet and only animal. And we've had him for five years. The guests will be seven in February, a couple of weeks. And we finally just decided that it was taking too much of a toll on our other other animals. And fortunately, a friend of mine has been in love with him for years. And she wants to adopt him. But, um, you know, it's hard to acknowledge that. If I had been a better trainer, and more devoted trainer, maybe I could have fixed you know, all of that and made it made it work better.
Unknown:So here's the thing is, and, you know, I, I am all for rehabilitating and rescuing dogs. And there's a lot you can do with behavioral work. Yes, there is. But when, when it comes down to, you know, ingrained personality, like there's you're not moving the gauge that much. You know, I went through a lot of battles with my pitbulls and their aggression.
lisa mitch bernard:Right, you said the first one. Yeah. And
Unknown:what I can tell you is, is that there are truths in everything you hear. And then there are omissions and falsities and everything you hear too. Yeah. Right. So like, understanding that aggression is usually a learned behavior. But every once in a while you have genetically aggressive dogs. Yeah. And you have some dogs that have grown aggression is not based in any type of fear. It is based in predatory drift and intentional I want to do harm to another animal. Yeah. And when you have that, it's not on how you raised it. It's that's how they were made. Yeah. And what I kind of think is important is is that if you if you try the things that you think will work with an animal and they don't have the effect that you like, it's okay to say that all right, well, maybe this dog is just not that social. You know, we're also learning that as dogs age, they become less social, in general. Yeah. So there's also that too. So, I always try to tell people is like if your dog ended up in a situation where it's happier, it may not be with you. Then you did that. Service. You did not think sale that stuff.
lisa mitch bernard:So what do you say to the people? Who I mean, I agree with that. But what do you say to the people who say, well, you would never rehome a member of your family? You would never, you know, do that if it was your kid? And I think maybe not. But this, like, what do you say to those people? Because there's a lot of them out there. to people,
Unknown:no, I to their point is like, you don't know until you're in that situation. Like, I've let go, I've let go family.
lisa mitch bernard:Well, that's true. Sometimes you do just have to kind of cut, cut your losses,
Unknown:like, I tried everything in my power to help you and you won't take the little bit of help to yourself, like, I can't do it anymore. Yeah. You know, so there, there's a lot of nobility in helping animals. But if you are putting yourself at, at in harm, if you're causing harm to yourself taking care of an animal, you need to reevaluate that situation.
lisa mitch bernard:I would agree with that. I would agree. And in our case, and I think in lots of people's cases, we have three other animals, we'd love very much. And the three of them are very harmonious together, unfortunately, tolerate this bossy little jerk. Who is awesome with people loves everybody, but just, he just can't handle sharing his resources with anybody else. And so we're hoping that he'll be happier in this. In this new situation. We're taking a very slowly just starting with some playdates and things like that. So it's not done. But anyway, I was thinking about that when you're talking about something I don't even remember how we got on that. Yeah.
Unknown:I would say to all those people is that like, give yourself the ability to really look at the situation. And again, you know, if there are there are other options that are better for the dog and, you know, take those options. Yeah.
lisa mitch bernard:He's got many many years left. And you know, often they do and you think it was just having that conversation with someone else. I interviewed earlier earlier in the week No, today's Monday, last week. We were talking about the fact that you know if a if an animal is not as happy as you wish they could be and they've got you know, years left let them enjoy those years with somebody they're resilient you know, they will even though they're very attached to you and your house maybe remember how well they get along with the dog sitter, whatever, they love that person. So I see your your big dog open book in his head or her head and not in my dog.
Unknown:that's a that's a this is a foster dog through biggies. bullies. Oh, and, yep, this, this dog popped right into my life. And he was like, I'm here. He kicked up his feet on the couch, and he was like, Hey, welcome. I'm here guys. That's awesome. My name is Mika.
lisa mitch bernard:How many do you have Foster and have your own right now?
Unknown:So micos My only Foster and then I have a Corgi German Shepherd named Zoe, who I was a client surrender. And then Courtney has an old English bulldog, who she had before we met but not not too much longer before we met. He was 10 months old when we met and he is now 12. Wow. Yeah, so I have an old English bulldog named Rd. in Zoey the shepherd Corgi mix and then we have Nico here who is a husky Shepherd next. And he is a very nice dog and I've taught him lots of things in three short weeks. he settles on his mat. He knows his toys he plays with pretty good. Again, they are resilient they do. If you if you give them time to acclimate, and give them some space and don't be like that. That's what people like to do is they like design like that. Stop that. Don't do that. But do anything you want. system definitely helps when working with animals, I would say yeah. So yeah, I mean, there, people need to stop lumping everything together is let's look at every situation as a uniquely individual situation. And yeah, what are what is that? What are all the parts? And what's not judged or shamed people from making, you know, hard decisions? Like there's not always an easy decision? Yeah. So like, a lot of people are like, Oh, well, your solution is to just have everyone stay put and suffer. So instead of, you know, maybe having this heartbreaking moment where I adjust some things, and then after we move from there, everyone's in a much better place. Yeah, that were done. It just all suffered together.
lisa mitch bernard:That doesn't mean, that's your that's your evidence based thinking, again, you know, how's that working for you?
Unknown:Again, it is just ask yourself, how's that working for you? As because there I can tell you is no matter what you do, training is going to your, what you trade today, it, the solutions that you come up with are going to be tomorrow's problem solving. That's just how it goes is you you fail into bigger, better problems. And if you can, if you can get that mindset, with training, you can take that into your life. And that as you know, helped me transform my life from, you know, a kid who didn't understand a whole lot about the world. You know, I I was a cook. You know, I, I have a GED, I felt I'd never made out in ninth grade, you know. But I was like, Hey, I was working in the restaurant industry. And I was like, there, there will always be somebody willing to pay me to cook for them. I know. I can guarantee you that. So that was my first step. And, you know, when I discovered dogs, and that all took off, it was great. And I couldn't be more grateful for what dogs have done for my life, and what I've learned from this process and how I've been able to apply it. And now I'm just to the point of helping other people experience that, whether it be you know, just a dog owner having a better relationship, or just transforming somebody's entire life and giving them you know, the ability to be like, Yes, I want to go out and be an entrepreneur and work for myself. Yeah. You know, it. I couldn't imagine, at any moment just being like, you don't have a job anymore.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah.
Unknown:Like that thought never crossed, crosses my mind like, Yeah, I would have to be fired by 50 people simultaneously.
lisa mitch bernard:And even then, you'd still think I could write a book about that. And that would be Yeah, I mean, I think I think there's creativity. There's a lot of things in the entrepreneurial interest.
Unknown:A tivity is that it's been found that we all have the same amount, like all humans have creativity. It's our ability to use it that you know, different difference. And what they say about unused creativity, is that that it your mind uses it itself. And yeah, an inkling into why so many people have, you know, anxiety issues is because their imagination is literally running
lisa mitch bernard:into imagination, I can always think of the worst thing that's going to happen, and I assume it's going to happen to me. Yeah, and I think some of it too, with entrepreneurial entrepreneurship is confidence in your ability to bounce back. If things don't go well, you know, just to be resilient yourself. So let's leave it there today. But I would love to have you back again soon. And I can think of a million more things that we'll talk about. So give me the website address again and we'll put it up on the show notes
Unknown:though for right now. For all intents and purposes that's just US Steel City pack leader calm. You can access pretty much all my other social media and stuff through there. But yeah, follow me on Instagram at all together better are still city pack leader Pittsburgh Petcare. And yeah, I hope I hope some of this information inspires some people to want to do better with their dogs or start a care business.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah. And I think that the idea of virtual training right now is really a great one. So
Unknown:I, and it's, and I have to tell you, it's super impactful. And on my website, there is a little blurb about why it's impactful. Okay, cool. I was a little skeptical at first, too, I was just like, I don't know how that's how that's gonna play out.
lisa mitch bernard:Yeah.
Unknown:But what I discovered basically, in a nutshell, is that I am really good at explaining what I would do if I was there. And really translates into is the owner doing my share of the work in the in the actual consultation, which is really my goal should have been in the first place.
lisa mitch bernard:Well, there you go.
Unknown:That's once once and the dogs not distracted by me. And I think that was, the biggest thing is that they're not like, Oh, this crazy new person, this new area, like I get to see the dog in a more natural setting. And I see how the owners interacting. And it's a little bit more of a better positive. For me, I think. Also, I can make it a little bit more inexpensive for people that way. Because about travel and we don't have to do quite as lengthy of a session. Right? record them for people so that they can go back and watch it.
lisa mitch bernard:That's a lot of good, actually. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
Unknown:Thank you so much for having me. You've been listening to my conversation with Andrew America. For more information about the organizations and other things we talked about. Visit PGH tails. com. That's phtails.com. Pittsburg tales is a podcast about the creatures of Western Pennsylvania, and the people who care for and about them. It was created and it's hosted, edited and produced by me, Mitch Bernard. If you have a comment, question or suggestion, or you'd like to be on the show, email me at Mitch at PGH tales.com. Thanks for listening.