Writing, Science Communication, and Undersea Research with Dr. Ellen Prager

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Dr. Ellen Prager, Marine Scientist and Author about Writing, Science Communication, and Undersea Research.  Read her full bio below.

Help us continue to create great content! If you’d like to sponsor a future episode hit the support podcast button or visit www.environmentalprofessionalsradio.com/sponsor-form

Showtimes: 
2:51  Nic & Laura talk about Nic becoming an Uncle
7:12  Interview with Dr. Ellen Prager starts
12:04  Writing
21:13  Science Communication
28:30  Undersea Research
32:19  Field Notes

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Ellen Prager at linkedin.com/in/ellen-prager-5932824b

Guest Bio:
Dr. Prager is a marine scientist and author, widely recognized for her expertise and ability to make science entertaining and understandable for people of all ages. She currently works as a freelance writer, consultant, and Chief Scientist for StormCenter Communications, Inc. She was previously the science advisor for Celebrity Cruises in the Galapagos Islands, Chief Scientist for the Aquarius Reef Base program in Key Largo, FL, which includes the world’s only undersea research station, and at one time the Assistant Dean at the University of Miami’s Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science. Dr. Prager has built a national reputation as a scientist and spokesperson for the earth and ocean sciences and is a sought-after speaker for public-oriented events. She has appeared on The Today Show and NBC News, Good Morning America, CNN, Fox News, CBS Early Show, The Weather Channel, in shows for the Discovery Channel and was a consultant for the Disney movie, Moana. 

Dr. Prager has participated in research expeditions to places such as the Galapagos Islands, Papua New Guinea, Caribbean, Bahamas, and the deep waters of the Florida Reef tract. She obtained a BA from Wesleyan University, Connecticut, a MS from the University of Miami’s Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, and in 1992, a PhD from Louisiana State University.  

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Nic  
Hello, and Welcome to Epi RT favorite environmental enthusiast Nick Anwar. On today's episode, Laura and I talked about me becoming an uncle. We talked to Dr. Ellen Prager, about writing science communication and are very cool undersea research. And finally, despite their name, sea lions are descended from a terrestrial bear like ancestor, but I'm not really sure how I feel about the term sea bears. So I guess we'll keep it as is. Sea bearer sounds so much worse than sea lions and I don't know why. It's like a monster. Yeah. So let's keep it sound. Yeah. That Music

Laura  
All right, the Pennsylvania EP chapter is offering their next webinar on achieving a sustainable future together the future of district energy for achieving carbon reduction goals on Tuesday, March 12, at 12 noon, Eastern Time. Check it out at www pep.org and register by March 8. Also EPR will be hosting its second ama asked me anything on March 27. Save the date for 6pm we will be making announcements pretty soon online. So stay tuned. This will be focused on academia and student advice. So if you are in school, or no students in school, please get ready to share it. Alright, Nick, I know you're tired from hanging out with the kiddo. But it's a sponsor spot ready?

Nic  
Yep. All right. So you know, like, you know, we all have enemies, right? Everyone's got enemies and you kind of wish that you could get rid of them. And you know, we have a new service. It's called, it's called IOSA pots. And so what we do is we take your enemies, we put them in pods and launch them into space. And yeah, that's absolutely subprime because they're still alive. And, you know, it's like hidden happening because they're in space where there are no rules. So if you just go to www i support.com. We will take care of all of your enemies. And that's all I've got. I feel like I did that in 20 seconds. I don't know. But that's that's me being tired. That's all I got.

Laura  
Service when I sign up. Yeah, I

Nic  
know. Right? I feel like that's actually one that people would work would actually sign up for. So there you go. For better or worse. Awesome,

Laura  
nice job. If you would like to hear an actual sponsor on here or be the actual I guess you wouldn't want to hear it necessarily.

Nic  
That's what I mean. Maybe Maybe. I listen to podcasts just for the sponsors, actually.

Laura  
Yeah, let's just make a podcast or something that's sponsored. If you would like your company to be the one people listened to on here, please hit us up, check out the website at environmental professionals radio.com. And now, let's get to our segment. Congratulations. What's local

Nic  
Oh, man, so okay. My brother's having high disperse. Kim. Beautiful Aurora Brian. Wonderful. Happy Healthy. Everyone's healthy. You know, I think there's some sleep deprivation setting in but yeah, I was really really exciting. I would say truthfully, like my my best friend. has three kids. So I've been Uncle Nick for a while. But you know, it's been my brother's first kid. It's very, very cute. It's adorable. And seeing him knowing who he is and seeing him be a dad is one of the you know, it's a very joyful, it's also very funny, you know, I've seen him make so many mistakes in his life and, you know, even in the music life, so it's really fun to see him care so much. And the love that he already has for the kid is is incredible. So it's really great to see what you're an auntie as well, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sounds

Laura  
like it's old news. My grown peppers nephew was born though. Like he's the most beautiful thing.

Nic  
Well, so Okay, well give me some advice. It's an uncle and what do I need to do? What's my my role and my charge, so to speak? Oh,

Laura  
well, you know, my first answer has always been to just be a good role model. You know, I think because I think for me, the role of like, aunts and uncles is like, just a different view of adults for kids. I think at some point, kids need different views than outside their whole family, but at first they see their parents and then they might see their grandparents but outside of that grippers don't count because they don't act like they're normal to themselves. They're like, yeah,

Nic  
you can do anything you want.

Laura  
good role models with your will. But when they get a little bit older than their next round of influences, usually aunts and uncles, cousins, and then you know, at some point they need to have other adults in their life. But, you know, you're that first thing and like, and especially, it's really hard for kids to see their parents as anything but parents, right. And maybe also, not every kid wants to be exactly like their parents or whatever. What else kind of what other kind of adult can I be good or bad? I mean, I had some aunts and uncles that were terrible influences. I don't want to be like that.

Nic  
Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh, but it's you know, it's funny. That's so we actually had a run up and like a one of our, one of my cousins was kind of like our big older brother. So he talked about different role models, and I wouldn't say he was a good one. He would come back from Germany. He was over there. And I'm a writer and 20 wines, my brother's an 18. And so he gave me a bottle of Jagermeister, like, officially from Germany. And my dad turns away and my brother he hands one to my brother. He goes, Don't tell your father, right. Like it's just kind of like, it's just like one of those funny little moments, you know, but yeah,

Speaker 1  
maybe like he was fun, but maybe not a great influence, but I also really looking forward to like the stories like I love like, when my best friend had his first kid. I meet him like when he starts to be able to understand, you know, like, you started to talk and speak and you understand what Uncle Nick means. So I meet him he calls me uncle man, and then I leave and he ends up calling every man he sees Uncle Nick because he thinks that's what other men are called.

Nic  
So I'm very excited about like, seeing that growth and changes to so we really cool Yeah,

Laura  
I mean, really be a good role model and just be there. You know, I always tell my nieces now that they're old enough, like if you need anything, call me, you know, because they're things too that you don't want to talk to their parents about. But you know, Aurora is not at that stage. So

Nic  
just a lowball cuteness. It's

Speaker 1  
kind of amazing. Like, this little kid who was just as just tiny infant still like we'll give you a look. That's like what my brother would do. It's like super crazy to see. Like, you know, even understanding that, you know, that's makes sense.

Nic  
It's weird. It's weird to say, but very, very cool. Lots of happy tears over here. So thanks for asking. That's good. All right.

Laura  
Well, let's get to our interview because I know you're a little sleep deprived.

Nic  
Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Hello, welcome back to EPR. Today, we have Dr. Ellen Prager, a marine scientist, and well established author on the show. Welcome on.

Dr. Ellen Prager  
Oh, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Nic  
So okay, we love talking about people's career paths on the show. And like I say where you are now. How did you get there? So

Dr. Ellen Prager  
it's been kind of a twisty, unexpected career path for me. I thought when I was in undergraduate going through graduate school, I was gonna be your typical researcher or professor or you know, that's what you did. If you were in science and math, I got a lot of advice. That's what you're supposed to do. Go to high powered research university. But what I discovered along the way, is that I really love interacting with people. I like explaining science for non scientist and doing communications based on highly credible science and AI. There's so much need for it. So I did some teaching. I worked for a bunch of different organizations, but found my passion is really in communications and so started writing Popular Science and children's books, somehow became an expert to go on air or media. I don't know how that happened. I do a lot of public speaking, get involved with some innovative projects to bring data and signs to people. So not exactly where I thought it was gonna be. But it's been wonderful and I'm so glad it worked out that way and all the jobs I have leading up to it gave me the foundation that I need, and experience and sort of very big perspective to do what I do now. Oh,

Nic  
that's so great. And I definitely want to dive into how those all pieced together. But I want to take a quick note here. How did you figure out? Oh, I love to engage with people. Like where did that come from?

Dr. Ellen Prager  
I know that's a really good question. I'm not sure I think I started giving talks with the public visiting classrooms. I was teaching undergrads for a little while and not only did I enjoy it I was inspired by her and I think it's a strength you know, people really, I always I like to draw humor into my talks and I make it very interactive. I don't like to stand up and talk to people I like to give and take and you know, make people laugh and ask questions and, and so it was not just that, you know, I think I'm good at it. But also, it was really inspiring for me to see the reaction in the audience to get questions. I've had kids come running up to me and give me hugs after talks about books. And I've gotten foundation grants to give books to kids and their response has just been so good. So it's not something I had to really think about. It was pretty clear that you know, nominally, I think I'm pretty good at it, but I really enjoy

Nic  
it. That's so fun. And it's funny. So I have a psychology undergrad and a biology grad degree. So I always joke that I'm a biologist. that knows how to talk to people. But like, that's kind of the same thing. Right? Like, alright, it's like, joy that you have and like, so that was one degree kind of led to another degree led to you know, I'm hosting a podcast and talking about science and all this other fun stuff, right. So you say you have all these other career building blocks, you know, like, what about those careers kind of gave you that foundation, how to data. You don't have to go through each one, but to give me a couple examples. Some

Dr. Ellen Prager  
examples? Well, certainly teaching oceanography for sea Education Association. I got to see what worked what didn't when you're trying to teach sometimes complex principles to undergraduates and some who were not science majors. So and I worked with other scientists and I could see what effective techniques they had. I worked with the US Geological Survey doing research, and that, you know, really helps understand the site, the research process, what goes into coming up with good results, and I was the assistant dean at the University of Miami's Rosenstiel school and I end up doing work in Washington DC. So I got to see a global picture about science, policy and science, how it works, and I got to see a much bigger picture than when you're a research you tend to focus on very narrow areas usually, but I got engaged in a lot of different areas. I got briefings and a lot of different areas, so I got to learn a lot. So all those things night. I'm much more I guess I'm able to look at things from different perspectives. And not want to say critique them. But for me, it's really important before I tell some new public, that it's credible and accurate. And there's you know, I don't have big questions about it. And sometimes I'll read something like well, I don't really think that's quite true, and so I'm not going to pass it on. So I think, again, that background at all those different perspectives really helps with

Nic  
that. Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. And it's funny, because reading really informs writing, I think, a lot of ways and so absolutely, yeah, yeah. And you are what I would call a prolific writer and you kind of have to be in the science field sometimes. Anyway. But I mean, you have with scientific journals, you know, public oriented magazines, multiple books, all of them are a little bit different, but they all have to have some value to you. So how do you how do you prepare? How do you write because as far as money goes, I think he's really challenging for a lot of people.

Dr. Ellen Prager  
Yeah. So first of all, you are 100% Right? And I get asked by people about how do you write you know, what, what can I do to become a writer? Well, first thing is read, read, read, read, you know, not only do you have to educate yourself about whatever the topic is, but you also have to find your style. What do you like, you know, what's the tone that you like? What's the piece that you like? And you'll get that from reading can't really get that other ways. It's really important for me writing, you know, I don't want to say it was paying 100% natural, but I got a really great education when I was young and hosting a public high school and then I went to Wesleyan University in Connecticut. And there, you know, I had to write as an undergraduate and then I, I even went into graduate school with really good writing skills, and it helped me a lot. I actually had professors who asked me to help write things for them. So that you know, and that was very technical. But what I discovered is that I love writing non technical stuff. And so I'm just like everybody else. There are days when I'm like, Oh, my God, the papers blank and I can't write. Yeah, well, yeah. where's it gonna come from? That's why I have bad days and good days. And then there's other days where you're on a roll and you're like, you know, I'll see you look up in the dark out, right, you've been writing. So, but I really enjoy the process. And sometimes funny when I finished with a book, and it's about to come out or a hand the manuscript and I'm kind of at that stage now I can't. Sometimes I'm sort of sad because I like and I'm a Rewriter. I know the first thing I put on the paper terrible. I'm all about going back rewriting it massaging it putting in new words. And when I had one professor, unfortunately, he's passed away now his name is Bob Ginsberg. He was like the father for we've geology. And I'll never forget, you know, my first paper for his class came back, red marks everywhere else like Oh, but he told me and I'll never use he said he'd point to a word. He goes, Are you sure that's the word you want to use? Yeah. Are you sure the meaning of that word is exactly what you want to say. And I've never forgotten that. So I actually now like I'll be writing I'll put a word like that's the right word. I have to. To flee. It's kind of fun. Yeah, so sure. So why I actually really do enjoy the writing process. And especially if I can make it fun or funny or you know, somehow engage people away, they might not expect. I really do enjoy it. But as I said, I also have bad days when I dusted others. I always say the juices aren't flowing, you know, there's the creativity that it's just not happening, and that happens to everybody.

Nic  
So, of course, of course, and I love it because it's like me, it's like a puzzle, right? Everything, everything, right? There are days where you're like, I'm getting all these pieces, or even like when you write out you have the frame right? You work on the outside, you got to get the frame but now everything in the middle of blue, how do I get these pieces together? And I love that part of the writing process too. Yeah, figuring out that sentence or that paragraph and you're like I did, yeah, yeah, it

Dr. Ellen Prager  
was funny. Yeah, it was really funny. So when I I've also written some like eco adventures for middle graders and their fiction books that incorporate science humor adventure. And there been a couple of times when I've written that it's, you know, it's a story. So it's very different than writing nonfiction. And I'll write the story on the outside. And I remember when I got my characters into a predicament where I was like, oh my god, I have no idea how to get them out of the situation. You know, the bad guys and you know that I think they were trapped on a cargo ship or something else. What am I done? And so it took me like two weeks I remember going out for a run or something else. If I just change these two things early on in the book to do it. I know what to do. But it was literally like two weeks of oh my god, what have I done? How am I going to get them out of the situation so it kind of you know that's part of it is fun to

Nic  
Oh, of course, of course and so Okay, so let's talk about those books a little bit like so you have like your most recent novels, escape under sea and that's the isn't the one talking about that you had to

Dr. Ellen Prager  
know that was so I have two series for middle graders. One is called Tristan hunt and the sea guardians. The first one is the shark whisperer. And then I have the Wonder listen ventures, and one is escape Galapagos escape Greenland and then escape under sea. So that predicament was in I think it was a book called Stingray City, which is the third book in the Tristan hunt series, but it happens. It happens on smaller scales too when you're writing fiction especially because the truth is I'm not somebody who makes really detailed outlines and then follows up knows exactly what's going to happen. Yeah, kind of more of a fly by the seat of my pants like oh, yeah, let's see what happens next.

Nic  
Oh, that's really fun, though. And I can say this a style suits you. I think it's a lot of times people think that there's only one way to do something, you know, and I know you have a career I've seen but there's many different ways of doing many different things and it's kind of a joy of being like getting that generalist experience.

Speaker 1  
So yeah. Okay, so we talked a little bit about your writing. I really have to talk to you about the Galapagos. I've been and it is one of the most wonderful places in the world is so what's your experience with the Galapagos and how did you turn that into something?

Dr. Ellen Prager  
So, in the 1980s, I got to go to the Galapagos for about two months to study the impact of El Nino on corals with one of the world's most porphyrin coral biologists in the world. I mean, amazing Dr. Peter Glen and his team, so I went to help them with the diving and doing some research. I was there for two months. I loved it. It was fantastic. A little bit rough back then, like the days there wasn't much there wasn't much there. But then slippery cruises was bringing your ship into the Galapagos and I had done some work with Royal Caribbean on one of their ships building a lab and, and they since I knew I've been to the Galapagos and knew it a little bit knew the science. They invited me to come down and review their programming and the ship and the safety because I also do water safety and long story short, I ended up being a science advisor for their expedition ships for about 15 years just recently kind of stopped doing that but love the Galapagos. I mean it's not just the unusual mix of animals and some they're unique and found nowhere else like marine iguanas or the, you know, some of the birds, but they're so well protected, and they're acclimated to humans, and I'm sure you know, they're not afraid of you so felines will come and play with you. Right? See, like, birds are laying their chicks in the trails and you have to go around them and you get to see behaviors and see things that you will never see anywhere else because that again, they're so well protected. They're just not afraid. And so you see natural behaviors and you can't touch them. You can't get too close, but boy, it is just spectacular. It

Nic  
really is it knows sea lions, I'm telling you that was probably the most fun and amusing thing. Because you know we're there. I remember being there and like, I'm underwater and doing my snorkel thing and this sea lion and I know it's an audio medium, but it just stares at me. Right? Yeah, I'm like, I feel like I'm watching a meme in real life. Like bowling by you know,

Dr. Ellen Prager  
they, they love to like swim right up to here and blow bubbles in your face. Yeah, you know, and so over any of your listeners, I'll tell them a little trick. Oh, you're ever in the Galapagos and they're sea lions that have seem a little playful. If you actually do a surface dive down and you sort of twist around or along. They will come down and play with you. And you can they will. Yeah, they'll somersault and swim around you and SummerSlam I don't care how old you are. It's one of the best things I watch shows this guy who must have been in his late 70s. And he went down, start twirling those sails or swim around somewhere. So he came up and he was giggling like a little girl. It was just the most pure joy of having that interact. Oh, it was so much elbow brought tears to my eyes. It was so much fun.

Nic  
That's so wonderful. That's great. And truthfully, they are extremely playful. You will see them quite literally. Every all over. Yeah.

Dr. Ellen Prager  
Yeah. So it's, you know, I think the Galapagos is a place where people can learn how we can coexist with nature. You know, you come away, understanding that there's a way to do it better than we have. And, you know, hopefully that's what people come away with and wanting to be better stewards of the natural world. Yeah,

Nic  
and honestly, that's a really good transition truthfully to you know, like, so like the book that you're about to write, or that you're about to publish, excuse me, coming out in was it fall 2024. Right, Megalodon is mermaids in the climate change fact versus fiction? So obviously, there's a lot of conversation about climate change and about being good stewards to the environment. So before we dive into the Pope, what does that mean to you being

Dr. Ellen Prager  
good stewards? Yeah, well, it means a lot, right? I mean, there's simple things like you know, not disposing of disposing of your plastics in the right way using less plastic. There. I mean, worried about invasive species, you know, not using too much water. There's, there's small things. But climate change is a huge, it literally is a crisis at this point. But I don't want people to think it's doom and gloom. Totally. We know what to do about climate change. We know what the problem is, you know, it's carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. We know we have to cut emissions we know how to do it. There are a lot of things and there's actually some exciting opportunities there. So it's all about taking action at this point. It's not sitting back and say woe is me, or you know, this is terrible. It's we know what to do. We know how to fix things. We know how to protect biological life and we just have to do it. So I do think there's an opportunity for the younger generation to do it better. And if they have a great exciting opportunity to make a big difference and they have so much influence on their parents and their peers. Hopefully you know, I'm, I guess I'm hopefully optimistic.

Nic  
I think it's a good space to be I think it is an AMC truthfully. And so it's like, the idea for the book is that kind of does it come from that? That mentality that you have,

Dr. Ellen Prager  
so a little bit from that, but more so from the misinformation that's out there? So I don't know if you heard this but in the at Davos, 2020 for economic and industry leaders just met in January, the top one or two of the top things, they're concerned about globally. Extreme weather and misinformation. And it's so rampant out there. And so so many people have misunderstandings about climate change about weather forecasting about dangerous marine life across the board. So my partner and I meteorologist Dave Jones, and I have written the book already. And basically we're doing in a fun way, in that we're using frequently asked questions, I should say, frequently asked, and Xeni questions that we get our colleagues get about the ocean and weather, hurricanes and climate change. And we're answering those questions throughout the book. And some are some are like pretty serious questions. Some are pretty funny. And so we're kind of taking a little bit of a humorous tack we're using easy to understand language. It will be published by Columbia University Press. We're still talking about the title convincing him that's the title we want. But we're very excited because there's nothing like it's not that we even have cartoons and an illustrator did. They're kind of like the New Yorker cartoons, and some of them have David, I like the introduction. It's so funny. Yeah, they have us armwrestling and Dave has a bubble of sense and atmosphere and I have mine says, you know, oceans which is where they're in the lightning chapter where we say, you know, if there's a lightning storm around, don't use electrical appliances, and there's me with a hairdryer. It's plugged in and my hair is no smoking and there's no spark so we're trying to make it light hearted but we also address some really important questions and trying to tell people in a way they can understand the facts and the realities of climate change, and dispel some of the misunderstandings. And then we also talk about the importance of asking questions, finding credible sources. You know, we we give talks all the time, and we see talks, and nobody has questions. And is it because they're afraid is it because they think their questions are stupid, but they're not. I will tell you the front quote, quote, because I wrote it, but in the front of the book, I my favorite sort of sentence is questions are the lifeblood of learning. How do you learn if you don't ask questions? So that's kind of what the book is about.

Nic  
That's so interesting. And it's not even I think, just asking questions. I think it's true, but it's being able to understand, you know, like, credible sources, right. When you're talking about credible sources. It's easy for people to write something that looks credible, but isn't. Right so there's there's that level of comprehension, that's something I've struggled with, it's like, you know, even dealing with, you know, talking with some of my family members, you know, getting articles that they send me and I'd say, well, that's, this is interesting. Here are some other things that are also interesting. And trying not to be like, well, you're this is wrong, this isn't done very well. Right. So how you get people to see those credible sources. What advice do you get?

Dr. Ellen Prager  
Well, so So first of all, question is, you know, where's that information coming from? Is that person an expert, you know, whatever the cartoon that I'm just gonna leave it to your imagination, about somebody asking a veterinarian about climate change, and the veterinarians doing some of his classical work. Right. And, you know, we say, that's probably not the person you should be asking about climate change. And so there's question the first question is, you know, where's the information coming from, and what is it based on where scientists so we face you know, we're looking for data, we want data, you know, we you know, you can was fun part of this year we say, Okay, you want to tell us that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time. Okay, we're open show us the data. Show us a geologic formation where you find the bones of humans and dinosaurs in at the same time. Show us evidence, do you have fossils of dinosaurs that have human bones because they were eating them? You know, show us the data, and we're having that discussion. And so, you know, the question is where does the information come from? Who is that source? Do they have another agenda? You know, what is it and what is that information based on? Is it just somebody's belief? Or is it actual data? So those are some of the things that we talked a little bit about

Nic  
in the book. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Which is really great. I think it's one of the most fascinating parts about the science community, right? There's always a need for critique. And I think it's always very fair. It's easy to say, well, we're doing everything right. We've always done everything right. You know, and that's not fair. And it's not true. But the ability to reflect I think, is really, I don't know, for me, it's one of the reasons I love it. Is because we can admit when we made a mistake, and I think,

Dr. Ellen Prager  
well, yeah, it's really interesting. Also, science is an evolving process. You start, you know, one state, state or state. And as you learn more or your understanding changes, we're continually worrying more and changing the way we think about things. There's nothing wrong with that. And I think sometimes, you know, people that go, well, the scientists were lying to us, No, they weren't lying to you. They gave you, you know, information on their best understanding of the data that we had up until that point, but it can change. So that is an important process for people to understand. under

Nic  
percent. I mean, I have to go back to half a bit to what we talked about earlier. Did you say that you build a lot helped build a lab on a cruise ship? Did I hear that right?

Dr. Ellen Prager  
So when I was at the University of Miami, we helped build an ocean and atmospheric lab on the explorer of the seas for Royal Caribbean. Yeah, so that was pretty cool.

Nic  
Let's see. I mean, like, that's, I had no idea that that even happened. I don't

Dr. Ellen Prager  
know. Oh, yeah, it was great. I'm assuming it's still running. I don't know for sure if it is, but we we work with scientist and put instruments on more than the top of the ship. And so they were collecting data. We had things under the hall where we were collecting as the ship ran, we were collecting ocean current data, information about the water, and then we would bring guests into the lab, show them around and we had a lecture series. I think that they're still collecting some data. I think some of the programs shifted, but it was it was a very novel thing of time, and it was pretty exciting.

Nic  
That was really cool. I mean, like I say, you've done a lot of really cool research and like, do I have to read that you lived in an underwater lab?

Dr. Ellen Prager  
I did I live. I live there's a still operating Aquarius Reef Base off of Key Largo. It's about 20 miles off shore base and 60 feet. And I was their chief scientist for a couple of years. But I also was fortunate to do two missions where I lived in the undersea lab for a week up to two weeks. And then what allows you to do is you get to dive six to nine hours a day down to 100 feet to do research experiments.
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Dr. Ellen Prager  
Studies. And then after you're done, you go through decompression and come up to the surface. So the fact that you're living at about 50 feet, allows you to dive all day. And then you go through decompression at the end to come back to the surface.

Nic  
So what kind of experiments were you doing?

Dr. Ellen Prager  
Yes, so I my missions, we did one mission. We were doing repeat service, very in depth surveys of corals and algae at different depths along transect so that they can compare them a couple times a year. Over the years. You could see how things were changing, which was very important. We did fish surveys, and then we did some experiments on corals. And then one mission or the other mission I did was more education and sort of communication. We were working with Bob ballads. Jason project, and we were doing five live shows a day from underwater, and it was really funny because he was in Houston. And you know, we'd have on our headset, because you were doing the same show every every day, five times a day and then that would shift the next day but we got kind of bores, we started playing practical jokes, poor producers and directors, we we had the hook lines and it'd be like 20 seconds to go live on air at the reef and we'd golf we pretend we're all tangled up. And that is not funny. That's not funny guys kaput. So, yeah, we had we could do q&a with students around the world. We could explain the things under the roof by showing them being underwater and explain what it was like to live underwater and then technology was really fun.

Nic  
Oh my gosh, I can only imagine. And are you the kind of person are you able to watch yourself after you record? Yes, I was so

Dr. Ellen Prager  
do not make me watch myself. You know you go in. I've been on air. You know, whether it was CNN or NBC or something. They always say, Oh, do you want to see yourself on the monitor while he found like absolutely not. No, you know, because it's, I'm just like everybody else. I'm my worst critic. So I don't want to see that. So don't make me do that.

Nic  
Like I could have said that better. Sit down. What am I wearing? You know? What was I thinking? Yeah. Oh, man. It's like I didn't think we were talking about like, I wanted to shave earlier, you know, and it's just like, how do you do that? You have to go on TV and now Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's too fun, but I mean, so there's a joy though, in storytelling and educating. And absolutely. And it seems like you also have a lot of really good stories. So one of the things we love to ask about on the show is like people's favorite stories of being in the field doing the science. So do you have any particularly memorable experiences? Or maybe just I know that you play at a time and you give us maybe one or two stories about you?

Dr. Ellen Prager  
I'll give you two, one we sort of touched on already with Galapagos, and then 90 native over there doing research. We had survey equipment and cameras, and literally the sea lions were like, Oh, quite toys. They would would steal our equipment from the bottom. We're trying to take it out of our hands. I actually had one time I was working. My buddy was in front of me underwater. I was lying on the sea floor and I felt something tug my fins and I was like, You know what is back there? It was a sea lion. So that is one of my favorite stories. We also got I also got chased out of the water by an all sea lion who didn't want us in the water in its territory. And what they'll do is I mean, they're big. They'll rush right at you and swerve this way. Dolphins will do the same thing if they don't want you around. And you know that that's what they're saying. And you get out. Let's see, maybe from living underwater, one of the Okay two quick stories. One, there were some goliath groupers that used to hang out and these were giant fish made bigger than me. And somehow they took a liking to one of the technicians and they would you go out and they'd come up and rub up against you and they like, open their mouths and you'd be like, they were very friendly, but you're like, Yeah, still nervous. Like what are you doing with these bears? We had dental policy and like No hugging the groupers you don't really right. But that's a funny story not so much about the research. About living underwater. Everybody loves this one. So for some reason, your taste buds don't work. When you're living at high pressure underwater. Supposedly it's the same supposedly the same is true as in space for astronauts, your taste buds, they don't really know why doesn't work. And just so you know, we put hot sauce and things. One day, somebody sent us down in this in these pots, these special pots, a lemon meringue pie, we're like, oh, that sounds great. You know, but Marang is a wine err which under high pressure because we're living number if you eat white slime it was compressed to be like white slime. Then did your taste buds didn't work? You couldn't taste the lemon filament filling the pie so it was a white slime yellow goo hives a new snowboard.

Nic  
That sounds awful.

Dr. Ellen Prager  
But, but you know some of the things that happen while you're living underwater are very funny and they you know you're working. If you're doing it right, you're working really hard. You're diving a lot even though the water is warm, it's cold and you're doing communications and data processing. So for me you have to go down there with a with people with good sense of humor because you want to have some fun at the same time.

Nic  
Yeah, I mean, like, I think it was Joy's magic elixir, right? It just makes people It makes things better. You know? It's like even small things like you just like you're doing the data processing. You're like, oh, this is so terribly boring. But what if I make the beat, do what I'm doing and all of a sudden I'm singing and I don't even know why we're here. Why? You know, some silly things like that. So yeah, it's

Dr. Ellen Prager  
so true. We really when Dave and I, when this book comes out, we've already done one talk together. And we're really hoping we're actually trying to raise some funds to do like a speaking tour. Because we have so much fun you know, giving talks together because people don't expect some of the things like you know, I was like I gave a little bit and then I say big questions and Davis and if you know the handsome young man in the back and he comes up and he comes up and like, stepped right in front of me is like so

Nic  
like why they're going like Right, right? Right, right. Yeah, we

Dr. Ellen Prager  
have this great sort of stick between us where we just love to laugh. And truthfully, and so we really look forward to getting out there with this book and being able to, you know, interact with the audience. Dave is a former broadcast meteorologist so it was on NBC or in Washington for 10 years. So he's a bit of a bit of a ham. I will say like he's great with people and so we just have so much fun and was one they were really looking forward to this hopefully getting out there and doing a bunch of speaking engagements.

Nic  
And I can say some of the people will be listening to this on the show, but we talk a lot about public speaking actually because it's something that people never think they're going to need it like oh, I don't have to speak in public. I never have to do that. And then you let's say your career yourself, you like you're fast forward and that's like you know, a lot of what you do. So first of all, do you still get nervous when you go on? It's

Dr. Ellen Prager  
funny, I don't normally get nervous. But every once in a while and I don't know why that is everyone was well also will be like, I'm kind of nervous. And I think that's a good thing. I think if you if you're nervous, it just means you want to do a good job. So it doesn't worry me if I get nervous. Typically even if I'm nervous as soon as I get there within five minutes I'm very comfortable. I you know we love interacting with people on stage. You know, we're always they asked me anything. Maybe I can't answer it. It doesn't matter. I think the nerves if you're not nervous a little bit, maybe you know you're overconfident or something but I think it's something that also obviously depends on your audience who the audience is. So I still get nervous sometimes but it goes away pretty quick. Yeah.

Nic  
So then what advice would you give to somebody who's you know, going to be doing this for the first time their first time in front of the camera? What would you tell them?

Dr. Ellen Prager  
So in front of a camera that was public speaking in front of an audience versus on camera are two different things. Right, but both of them you need to think about, you know, what's your message? What are you're trying to get across practice? If you haven't done a lot of public speaking, get some friends or you know, somebody that you can practice in front of? And I guess the biggest thing is really who's your audience? Before you put your talk together or even think about what you say on camera or in front of an audience? Who are they? What are they care about? How can they relate to what you're saying? What level of understanding they have, it's all about who your audience is. And that's, I think the biggest piece of advice is know your audience before you start. And, you know, scientists, they love the technical details, but when you're talking the public, you usually don't need those technical details. And so, when you're talking to those eyes, it's not about what you want to say. It's what they will understand and engage them and that's, you know, a very different thing. I think sometimes hearing people learn to give talks it's all about Well, here's what I want to say here's how I want to know think about what what your audience needs to hear. Yeah.

Nic  
Which is a little bit different. Oh, it's so as such a good piece of advice. Like, I've even I've had brilliant people, brilliant people talk to me and say, Alright, we're gonna go public with all this this scientific information. Let's give them every single thing we got. I'm like, Okay, what do you what do you mean by every single thing you got? We're gonna give them just scientific names of all these species, you know, I'm like, oh, no, you just like, if you say pro sigh and lo to our instead of Rakuen, you've lost. Like, you've lost them immediately. And it's just like, it was like, we have all this information. I'm like, Yeah, and you can give that to them and like an appendix or something you don't have to say, right, right up front. We're very smart. So you should listen to us, which is just, you know, nobody wants to hear.

Dr. Ellen Prager  
That's right. That's 100% True. And one time I was giving I was talking to sometimes this giving you a training about dealing with the media or Congress, you know, giving right now and they had so what if they cut me off before I get to my point, you know, because in size you're talking to you do with an Amtrak but you do an introduction, you talk about your methods, and then you get to your cruise and so I was like I leaned in I said your conclusions first, and they were like, Oh, right. If you I always say if you have a big point you want to make, make it up front, and you can repeat it. There's nothing wrong with repeating. But that's such a different way of thinking than what you're taught in terms of science. And I actually think it's a real weakness in the education system of how we teach upcoming scientists or present their data.

Nic  
Oh, that's a really good point. Like, yeah, one of the things even so like in my career field, I'm in environmental policy right and environmental policy is technical writing. But it is nothing like scientific writing. And a lot of our technical writing is taking scientific writing and making it palatable to the public. That's the kind of process right and when people come out of school, most of the time not always but most of the time. Like my first comment before you even send this to me is don't try to impress me. I get that you have a really good vocabulary, exactly what I want. If you have a one word that has seven syllables, I'm not even going to read this like, and neither will anyone else. Right. So Right. Yeah, I mean, how do we, and I think some of what you're doing is kind of already addressing this, but how do we how do we get better at that that piece? Is I agree with you. I think it's a neat, so

Dr. Ellen Prager  
Okay, so we invest a ton of research. We invest so much in like giving it for communications, what we're doing with combating misinformation, there's a lot of funding out there to do the research on where disinformation misinformation comes from. There's not a lot of money to combat it through communications. And so I think we have to invest in communications training of scientists to work with the public, and there needs to be funding. I mean, not you know, we're sort of scrambling around to pay for what we're doing because we're not promoting an agenda. We're not, you know, promoting a specific organization. And so there needs to be more funding for people to reach out to the public to explain science in a way that they can understand and is engaging, but isn't tied into any agenda or nor specific organization necessarily. So I think we haven't invested in we haven't invested in training. You know, graduate students should go through science, communications training, you know, how to work with the media, and so there needs to be investment in those levels.

Nic  
That's a really great thing. I wish I wish I had that. I've been really cool. I love that would be great. Yeah. And okay, so I know we're kind of getting close to the end of time here and I hate to break and let you go. We're just keeping it forever, but you can't come if you can't leave.

Speaker 1  
But before we do that, like we love to ask our guests a little bit about themselves to write so not just the screens part of it, but we love to ask what people's hobbies are and you recently purchased a home with a garden for the very first time so

Nic  
yeah, what's that been like?

Dr. Ellen Prager  
Also really fun. I love being outdoors. I swim and cycling, walking running whenever anything I can do outside. I love it. But I haven't had I've never had a garden myself. And so recently bought a home and with Dave in Annapolis, Maryland. And they had the most amazing garden and this year this summer, the end of the summer, just spring we had we had to give eggplants toward neighbors. We have a whole row of herbs. And it's I love going out there it's like reconnecting with nature and growing things and sustainability and the seasons. And it is yeah, I guess it's another way of connecting with nature and the outside world as being part of that growing and producing food and right now we're having problems with those squirrels because the other say squirrels are they are they don't bury them that they are like digging holes up everywhere searching for nuts. Okay, so maybe they buried them but they don't remember where they buried. That's where it is right here. Oh, no, no, it's over here. So, but so gardening has been really something that I I just love and kind of unexpected but almost anything outdoors I love.

Nic  
Yeah, so okay, what what's the thing that you've grown that you're most proud of?

Dr. Ellen Prager  
What am I most proud of? I

Nic  
mean, you got eggplants and you're given them away. I gotta be something. Yeah,

Dr. Ellen Prager  
but no, I think the writing Well, I think bringing science to different audiences. In a way that they can undersell it understand, but be really engaged and want to learn more and particularly some of my middle grade books I know that struggling readers have useful and I've gotten some of the nicest notes from parents whose kids that they say oh, they don't like to read but they're reading my books. One parent told me their kid got the son got in trouble because at school, he was reading my one of my books under the desk during class. And then she said like he was reading so I don't care. You know, I've had I've had autistic kids who have gone to talk, give talks and they love the books and then I go home and I talked to them and I mean, I've had kids give me hugs that brought teachers you know, tears me to tears. That's probably been the most rewarding is being able to engage kids and learning who might struggle with it in reading is so important to achieve successful life. And so helping kids achieve in reading, getting them engaged and learning. I'm pretty proud of that.

Nic  
That's that's quite wonderful. And like I say before we let you go, is there anything we didn't talk about that

Dr. Ellen Prager  
you'd like to say? I don't think so. I think we've covered are pretty you know, the things Yeah. Oh,

Nic  
it's great. Yeah, we really did. We really loved having you here. Thank you. And just let the people know where they can get in touch with you. So if somebody wants to reach out,

Dr. Ellen Prager  
so probably the best thing is, you know, you can Google me obviously there's a lot about my sort of professional life out there. But I'm on on X, almost Twitter on x and eel Prager on Facebook. You know, just Ellen Prager, open EO Prager. You can find me out there. I try and respond if I get emails or somebody contacts me through act or Facebook, LinkedIn, any of those.

Nic  
Perfect. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for having me. And that's our show. Thank you Dr. Lm for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. See everybody bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai