Diversity, Hip Hop, and Environmental Racism with Dr. Thomas Easley

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick!

On today’s episode, we talk with Dr. Thomas Easley, Assistant Dean for Community and Inclusion at Yale University School of Forestry and Environmental Studies about Diversity, Hip Hop, and Environmental Racism.   Read his full bio below.

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Showtimes:
1:10  Shout outs
1:48  Nic and Laura talk about extreme accountability
7:41  Interview with Dr. Thomas RaShad Easley starts
18:41  Dr. Easley's path from Forestry to Diversity
36:36  Dr. Easley talks Hip Hop
41:47  Dr. Easley discusses his projects focusing on environmental racism

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Dr. Thomas Easley at https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-thomas-rashad-easley-4549675/

Guest Bio:
Thomas RaShad Easley, Ed.D., is the child of civil rights activists that protested in the children’s march in 1963 at the height of the Civil Right movement and integrated an all-white school in Toledo, Ohio. Assistant Dean of Community and Inclusion at the School of the Environment at Yale University (the first school of forestry, 1900). Dr. Easley has attended Alabama A&M University (B.S.), Iowa State University (M.S.), and North Carolina State University (Ed.D.) Dr. Easley has backgrounds in forestry, genetics, and adult education. 

Dr, Easley is a certified diversity, equity and inclusion consultant that works with academic institutions, corporate entities, and other organizations to help them actualize a strong diversity initiative that welcomes everyone and shifts work culture to be equitable. 

Dr. Easley is a musical artist, professor, Eagle Scout, and a former campus pastor. He intentionally merges conscious lyrics, ecumenical spirituality, land stewardship, education, diversity/equity/inclusion principles and entrepreneurial thinking in his lectures, workshops and presentations.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Nic:
Hello and welcome EPR with your favorite environmental nerds Nick and Laura. On today's episode, we give our shout outs. Laura and I discussed how to incorporate extreme accountability into your daily routine. We talked to Dr. Thomas Easley, the Assistant Dean for community and inclusion at Yale University about diversity, hip hop, and environmental racism. This really doesn't do the interview justice is actually absolutely a compelling listen so I really do hope you guys enjoy it, and it's incredible. It really is an incredible interview. And finally, on this day in science in 1983 Sally Ride became the first American woman in space. Pretty cool stuff.
Laura:
So, one sentence, that's all you're gonna do
Nic:
It's my intro so you know, picked a really good name you know Sally Ride easy to say...
Laura:
oh my gosh, it's all about making me look good, Laura. As always, please be sure to subscribe, rate and review that music.

[Shout outs]

Laura:
And our shout out for today is one of first where we will be recapping some of the awards that went out at the conference, the 2021 Jim Roberts Memorial Scholarship goes to you, Matt Martin, a professional wetland scientists, Matt received his bachelor's from the University of North Carolina Wilmington in environmental studies, he's currently pursuing a master's degree at the University of Oklahoma in geography and environmental sustainability, with a concentration in geospatial technology, be sure to share your promotions, new jobs professional and project awards with us on the EPR website if you'd like to sponsor a future episode, head on over to environmentalprofessionalsradio.com  and check out the sponsor forum for details. Alright, let's get to our segment.

Nic:
Sounds great.

[Intro]

Laura:
I gave a presentation last week on extreme accountability and this is a mindfulness practice that I have been doing and it has been serving me very well.

Nic:
Extreme accountability. Okay, what does that mean?

Laura:
So it means that you're taking accountability for not just your actions and the things you promise to people but you're taking accountability, which means essentially just means taking responsibility for your thoughts, your feelings, your actions, and for other people. So, because normally we think of accountability as to other people, right, for other people would be your family your kids, your pets, your significant other and it doesn't mean that you're responsible necessarily for, you know everything that they do but that you understand that there is, you do play a part like if I'm mad that my boyfriend's not doing the dishes. What, how, in what way am I accountable to that. Have I not explained why it's important to me or have I not set the process up for him.  Have I not explained why, since I do the cooking, it's up to him to do the dishes and what you know why that's important to us in this relationship and it there's literally instructions on our chalk wall above the thing that says this side is for dirty cat dishes for the cat food and this side is for dishes you know like, so I'm being accountable for like how do I set him up for success in our relationship.

Nic:
And so here we were having what happens. What happens when he inevitably forgets, because really what's going on right?

Laura:
Yeah. It's hard right because there are some times where you can be accountable and do all that you can do, and then you still don't get the outcome that you want, right. So you still have to be accountable for, I mean, we're talking extreme accountability, right. Yeah, then you have to go to, well this is the person I'm, do I want to be in this relationship or not like that's your choice at that point is like, if you say you do, then your only option is to live with it. Like, you have to say how can I work around this because otherwise you just stew in it forever and that's yeah, we'll start talking under their breath and getting nit-picky with each other.  I just have to go do it again, you know, or change the rules like maybe, maybe I need to do the dishes but there's a different chore that you'd be better at that. Maybe he's gonna start doing my laundry, you know like, so it just being extremely accountable makes you take things to a deeper level and find a better solution or a different solution that you would not have gone that far to get before.

Nic:
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

Laura:
In other ways, it makes you more self aware of, like, your thoughts, so I'm just very much going by, maybe I shouldn't have said what I said that way, or the next time so it doesn't mean you're, you're going to be completely infallible or nothing's ever going to go wrong, but it takes a lot of work, but I can see a lot of kind of small but profound changes.

Nic:
Yeah, and you know I think it's really what you said right there, it takes a lot of work. Right. A lot of times people when they have, they get a new idea or a new thought or a new, new way of doing things. And it doesn't immediately give you results, you think this is dumb and why am I doing it right, you know like meditation is a simple one right you can't just like go from I've never tried to clear my mind out to, yeah, now I'm a Zen master, it just doesn't work that way. And it's the same like we're talking here you have got to practice it, just like you would anything else. It's a strange concept, it's it's nothing tangible. Yeah, it's harder to see how much better you are, you know, if you're playing, if you're playing basketball and you just get better at doing setting screens and dribbling and shooting. Those are all really, really easy to measure, but gradual change like that is really hard to see.

Laura:
Yeah, and you see it in the entire purpose is that you see it in your basic outcome and like your baseline contentedness or happiness I don't really shoot for happiness myself. Super content is the goal, and if I can just understand how I play a part in everything that happens around me, you feel more in control, you know, don't feel like things are you're not a victim ever and things aren't always happening to you, you can step back and say okay, you know, maybe I didn't like how this went this time but the next time this situation happens, you know, you know like when you're in-laws visit, you can purposefully sit down and think about what did I do that contribute to the behaviors the interactions, the outcomes and then. Okay, the next time they're in town, how am I going to take the time, energy and effort to maybe I need to set some different expectations or, you know, write, make a chalk wall and put up reminders, you know, sit down with the Eckhart Tolle thing which is the power of now and just say, I can either change this or accept it, right, and if I'm going to accept it then I'm just going to sit back and laugh, you know. 

Nic:
You know, there's a, there's a phrase from one of my favorite songs that I really love, and I think we've talked about it but I don't think it's made an error yet, but if I smile and regret. I smile and regret you're like oh yeah that was, you know, and it just because there's times where you say and do things that, that you can look back on and realize how silly it was and, you know, and you're like yeah that was not what I meant to do not what I want to do but, but having that mentality means I can learn from it, and now instead of just being totally embarrassed and totally ashamed and totally suppressing it, it's like, Oh man, that was stupid, I shouldn't really, I should work on that, you know, and, yeah, you see those changes over time you really think back like a year ago or two years ago when you started doing something like this and then you see how you've handled situations as they've come up, or even just you know talking about things differently. You will notice that it's just really gradual.

Laura:
Yeah, for sure. Cool. Let's get our interview.

[Interview with Dr. Easley]

Laura:
Alright, welcome back. We are so thrilled to be here with the multifaceted Dr Thomas RaShad Easley, He's the Assistant Dean for Community and Inclusion at Yale University's School of Forestry and Environmental Studies. Welcome, so glad to have you here.

Dr. Easley:
Thank you, thank you, thank you for, for having me and I must admit I gotta apologize. We've changed our name, we're now the Yale School of the Environment, and so I do apologize that I did that I didn't share that but we still have the fourth school within the school of the environment so we're still there, right.

Laura:
Universities are always changing, like organizing so thank you for the clarification. But on that note, could you tell us more about your role in that, at Yale and what you do.

Dr. Easley:
Well, I am the Assistant Dean of Community and Inclusion. To keep it simple I think that that I know that that role really centers around diversity, equity and inclusion, and some can even use the new term now of course is access so I do, but I'm here to lead all of the diversity efforts that are going on in the school. And so I do that in a number of ways, one by leading like are actually facilitating administering programs, to working with our Diversity Committee which is called Equity, Inclusion, and Diversity, which our faculty staff is women students on there. They also lead programs and then I helped to support it and so a lot of times, programs are really involved with me, you know, but, and then I work with faculty, we work with students and faculty individually students individually staff as well to help them with integrating diversity principles more in their work and that's where the risk in leadership if you're a manager, whether it's in some of their interactions you know that you've been teaching, if you're you know like in in various meetings, and then from there, you know, I help support the entire school so I help support all of the leadership, we're where we have challenging things to happen, which is where the community part comes in, you know, then I'm one of the leaders that they call on. And then the nice part of my job also was to help with recruitment. So bring in new students and bring new faculty in and retaining them. So yes, it's a pretty broad job but it can get specific depending on what's going on in context.

Nic:
Yeah, and when the pandemic, you know most universities shut down, they went virtual and. So were there any challenges to maintaining that diversity inclusion as a result of the pandemic and are there any lessons learned from how you've adapted that you'll carry forward.

Dr. Easley:
Well, there were definitely some, some challenges you know when working with population of people that really want to be together, and also in ways and in times need to be together so you know I don't want to say that like it's just a more. You know because we learn better together, you know, we feel better when we're able to touch each you know touch one another appropriately you know like hug, you know, connect, you know.  So that was challenging, because our students really needed that especially our first and second year students. The good thing about them is that they had already been there. Yeah, there's no one to school but like they knew where campus was like, know the tough things they couldn't be together but they were more, in general, it was it was easier with them it was the first year so you know that was tough, they got disconnected easier. 
But some lessons that we learned, one important lesson that myself and my supervisor learned in particular I can say is we've learned to that we have to trust each other more, because you never know when people are struggling and going through, you know something even even in moments when they're struggling and you're not, we learned that we have to be just a little bit more sensitive to each other, not just to the students, but to one another, because things were happening, you know all the time even someone was losing someone, we you know, we actually lost a couple of students. So people have had to learn how to let things sit, or I should not say let things sit, How we need to sit. 
How about that, which is the third lesson that we've learned and I will say, I have to say that was just struggling with that one. You know, I want to get back to some kind of normal, but better communication is one way that we have addressed and that we did more programming in our office so that would just be more virtual touchpoints that was helpful, that we have our staff leadership, you know, having implemented like monthly monthly gatherings that we get together and you know and making things fun. I think last year at least in my opinion we handled it better, I felt like this year. People are just ready to get back. And so, you know with trying to find excuses to get together and so, you know, so those are you know some of the challenges but for me it was easier for it. It made a couple of things easier for me. It freed me up some so that everyone can just come to me, you know, come to my door you really had to now set an appointment so I could be in front of the computer make sure that the technology works. It made us communicate better, in all honesty, because now we have to talk. And in some ways I even contributed to a mediation, who about being the mediator, and we had to sit there and actually work through it. So that to me like that's one of the benefits is that we all have the same square, you know, and so we have to see here and actually deal with each other and then with diversity and inclusion. I got to see a lot of people some people kind of break down but I got to see many people's vulnerable side, so for me that's one of the ways that it worked out people were opening up to me more people were talking more. They were sharing their struggles, and because I'm an introvert, and I can deal with that but I don't have to share that as much. I can take that in and I can go okay, all right. Okay, write that down. Okay, and then be like okay demonstrate let's just the clock okay, because I have something else to focus on, but I'm still here with. Of course it doesn't get heavy for me. Because it is hasn't been easy, but you know.

Nic:
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, you know, like if you were also the Director of Community  and Diversity at NC State for 14 years, so this is very passionate, something's very passionate for you. So how did that role, prepare you for the job you have now?

Dr. Easley:
Oh wow, working well, one my entire academic experience was in was in the land grant system, you know, going to Alabama, A&M, HBCU, VCU, UGA, land grant Georgia. Iowa State, land grant Iowa, NC State, get my doctorate and work in their land grant from North Carolina. So when you work in the land grant, the reason why I'm really just kind of specifying that is because you know working in the ivy League's will one one thing that is definitely different. On the finances I'm just, I'm just gonna be, it is different, you know, but I will say this, but not necessarily because we can just spend, you know, because they're very they can be frugal at times but they're very mindful of how they spend in the ivy League's, in my opinion, in some ways I feel like the ivy League's know what we're talking about and I won't get into, you know, you get negative here but, you know, depending on what we're talking about they will spend as if they were a state institution. So that's one way, one way that he prepared me was to show me how leaders struggle with money, how leaders spend money and how they prioritize what they spend, but what it also helped me with is, students are very needy, and I'm not saying that as a complaint, that's a fact that students are very needy so if you're going to work in this environment, and touch students, you must be ready for people to come to you especially if you make them feel welcome. Yeah, and feel comfortable, you know.  The problem I have is I can't get people to leave me alone. That's a good problem. 

Okay, I told you I was an introvert okay, anyway, yeah. I learned, I learned how to organize my time because I became an entrepreneur while I was at NC State, and I learned how to work with multiple personalities all at one time, I felt like I learned how to communicate because you know being in the southeast, you know, we don't and I'm originally from Birmingham, Alabama. We don't deal with race the same way that we deal with it in the Northeast or really in many other parts of the country we have. This is my opinion and of course it's general you know but I think we deal with it the worst in many ways, you know, down here, one way because we don't even want to talk about it even though I know I see you, and I know. So you know so NC State gave me that and then NC State is where I got my doctorate, so I was fortunate that one time to basically be a faculty student, and like an administrator, all at the same time, like at the same time and, and I got to see that one of the challenges is that the three don't communicate well with each other. Right, so they don't really know what the other is going through and so when I, you know, so, so let's just I'm sorry I'm making a long story longer do apologize for that when I get to Yale, right, and I'm in the School of Forestry and Environmental Studies. We are a smaller school, so we only have like a little over 300 students who are coming from a school where I was working with over 1500 students. Half the faculty there there were, we were there, well I was at NC State, a smaller campus, you see. So what I had to focus on was the pace, you know, Being a Southerner not saying that we're slow I just put a song out talking about what it is really, okay, but it is a different pace, because it's like they really moved like a machine. I feel like NC State was moving into the machine phase. Yale was already there. So when I got there I had to recognize that I was going to probably have to be a testing this a little bit more than I wanted to be having to reply to emails, once I was a Dean now, you know, so, but how to deal with people, was still the same, because the issues were still the same as that was, that's what really did that being at Yale taught me oh, I am this job, but at NC State, it was like I hope I do good. But at Yale, I was this job.  There you go.  Full test on the day. How long it has been going on, two hours. We got 22 more hours we good. Trust me. Don't rush. Have they called the New York Times yet. No, we're good. Yeah, what's going on, harassment, harassment, how many times has this complaint happened three to, oh you should have been doing this before you came in told me you were in trouble. You know what I mean. So, like that you know it's like you can, I can almost. And I don't mean like like a prophet, I don't mean that like that but you can almost foresee a lot of things because at least the wonderful thing about the Ivy League to me or being at Yale, you know, or in the northeast, is that they really do like to talk about things. I missed that in the southeast, like I said, cuz we don't talk about it. The northeast at least we can talk, so I liked it but anyway I'll stop

Laura:
Talking's good. So, yeah, let's take it back though to, like, how did you end up because I don't. Your original schooling wasn't in environment. How'd you end up crossing the section between diversity and environment, forestry?

Dr. Easley:
Well, it was my interest shifting, you know I got involved in forestry from the genetics aspect of forestry, so definitely stem, and did well, you know in it, and by the time I was wrapping up my master's and was already involved in some really good, you know, good long term projects. I did feel like I was missing something, you know, so, maybe a couple of years, not maybe a couple of years when I was first in forestry and doing it. One of the benefits was being out in the forest and not having to talk to anybody but no one at all Laura just to be honest with you, you know, yeah, yeah, you know, I think, I think I became an introvert I think there's something happened. I got back in school after working, I realized that I needed something, and I think that it was connection and stream of events happened that led me into being a counselor in a program called the Ronald McNair program, and I got to work with an I had 100% Latin X ESL students. And one of the main goals of the program is that the students are to graduate and go to graduate school, and eventually if not immediately go on to get the doctorate, and I was the only counselor that year and all of my students went, well then I turned around and did it again the following year. So that's when I recognized, oh I don't really want to do something to help people because remember as I said they spoke Spanish, I didn't. Yet, there were things that I did with them and I did go and take a class with Spanish. And I'm not saying  not to go learn another language that is commonly spoken in a country that has no common language legally okay anyway. You know, but if you want to connect with people you know, it's great to try to connect with them via language, or at least know their name and pronounce it correctly.  And so, you know, I went and learned some things and that those steps, taught me like, oh, in fact, because I did this, it made it easier for me to connect with the students because the students trusted me more, they practice their English with me I practice my Spanish with them. They could come not complain but really lament to me about the challenges that they were having or the insecurities that they were battling, and I could combat that, you know for what I understood as a person who was in graduate school was about to finish, and let them know that you know that that's BS, do not let that go to your head, you know Yeah, so when I got to NC State, I knew that I wanted to do something I knew that I wanted to get my doctorate and what led me to the doctorate, that's another story. I knew that I wanted to get it but it needed to be in something that now interested me and people since I'm not this person that doesn't want to be around people anymore. Well, another thing is, if I had to think smart, you know, if you want to graduate, before you hear alternatives, great. I had to be smart, so I made sure that my dissertation that my studies aligned with my works work responsibilities, that's how I was able to go to school full time and able to graduate, and also still work full time, it was tough. It was hard but I was able to do it so can you say anyone wants to know how to make things work and if you're working, try to align with what you're doing and it may put a battery in your back.

Laura:
Great advice. We've been really focused in hard on on diversity and equity inclusion and trying to bring stuff people on to the show and keep bringing it up and NAEP as a whole is trying to really be a role model in space for all of the environmental professional fields. And, you know from the work that you do, like, what advice so our listeners are people who are already working in fields business owners, students, like, from what you've seen, especially with students graduating out of your school, what can employers do to make that transition from school into work better, for a diverse set of students?

Dr. Easley:
Oh, good question, just like the last time. That was that was that was good. Okay, okay, all right. Okay, throw did I just said it. Okay, great job, team, no I in team. Employees can, Let's be specific about what you just said, How can employers do better for diverse graduates, basically. Right, you know, to get them and to retain them. Bring them in. Two at a time. Okay, so there's one because if you bring a person there by themselves, one question that I always get Laura I still get it. How do I show up in a white space, and I'm like, and I can't talk to them like they're me, you know, like white space, whatever. And whenever when I showed up. I think everyone and I'm not saying that I'm special in that I have this great understanding, I have a I have an understanding that, for me the experience that I now have I contribute to it, so. Yeah, but for many other people it takes time for folks to get to their point you know because they're new, they're malleable they want to impress. And so they get there and they're by themselves and they're in an environment where they're not reflected. People culturally don't know how to engage with them and talk to them or you know, when do you know Inquirer you know about them and all of that eventually they're going to feel left out, and eventually they're going to feel like the third or the fifth wheel. So, if you bring them in like two African American and Latin X and an African American, you know, to indigenous people you know to women, like if you bring, you know, bring them in, in a pair, and just be honest about why you bring them in like that right you bring in a man because they're brilliant and because they can do the job, bring it together because we understand that in our environment we are still continuing to broaden it and enlighten it.  As we bring people in, we want to bring them in, you know in pairs and maybe in the cohort. And then that way you can help us better improve our organizational culture, and then you will not be alone. In some instances, and I'm glad you all are recording this because I need that when I just say it back. I need that bad guy Laura. I know you're gonna share this with people but call me on that because I think that's a good tip right there. Okay, another thing. Thank you. Another thing that they can do is, There's this misperception and is based in the limitation of the English language and I'll tell you what the limitation is within that because some things have changed everything better. Right so but because there's been some minimal change, that means that there's still maximum work that needs to be done. So we think that, Oh, now that we have had a biracial president. We can go back to just treating job applications like we used to. So we don't need affirmative action there right you know because this group can't get jobs. Yeah. What did you just say to me? Excuse me? What exactly did you just say we need to go, we can go back and you think it's...

Laura:
They did the same thing with endangered species, right, they're like, oh we counted manatees this year and there's one more than we needed so let's take them off the list

Dr. Easley:
As some comedians say if some people could be on that list, maybe our lives would be saved, and the law would protect us better. And you're right. But where I was going with that, thanks. see you can just bounce.  You can roll with me. Yeah, is that do the interview before the interview. So don't think that because oh now we have more folks here, This whole application process can just be equal  now, you see. And that's the misperception that equity is uniform. It's not. Yeah, yeah. Equity is what's needed.  Equity has to do, you know, is the equity is not equality. And I think that that's what everybody wants to get to, they want to go to equality, or many people I shouldn't say everybody was there are plenty of people out here who were fully aware of this but there are a number of folks who, it's like they want the practice to be mainstream immediately and I'm like no, no, it was a few centuries for us to get to this point, we still need to keep incrementally moving. So that's what I want to say do the interview before the interview which means you have to talk to people before you bring them in. Yeah, you need to you need to go ahead and start identifying the people that you want and then you need to get the people.

Then another thing that that needs to happen is you need to get the environment the work environment, prepared for when the people get there. And then, If you're a leader, that's doing the hiring and you are not culturally aware, and you know like how to cross this, then it's time for you to do something about that. Don't say I'm not. And then remain mediocre. Yeah, say I'm not and do the opposite of trifling. Okay, you just said that no better so now let's go do better. Let's go do something let's go sign up for something let's go to an experience that helps us to increase our cultural awareness, let's assume it's totally a TED talk, you can even do it the easy way like we like like the cheap copyright, they'll say no one will watch a few TED talks,

Laura:
I think we're talking to somebody who has one you could listen to.  Just saying.

Dr. Easley:
Right, you're right. And so you know so educating yourself bringing people in, in pairs, prepare the environment before the people get there, but one of our challenges though Laurie is, it's like we isolate job positions, it's like we minimize them we, I need a forester, but what if that forester also was like an environmentalist and environmental scientists, you know, not just understand trees but maybe also knew soil and we were open to, he, she, or they being able to do some of it, you know, but the skill that we really want you know like, Yeah, we really need them to have that but we also understand that people are going to have other skills and the reason that I say that is because the problem with our educational system, and it transcends into our employment system is that we've bifurcated the uniqueness almost out of us. By separating us in these silos, called majors and called disciplines. So when now when we put out jobs, like how you introduced me, multifaceted, you know, if you think about it, the old model, is to actually have one facet. I mean think about that. I need Laura, to do this one job. Oh, and because women, historically, weren't supported going in this field, we have to blame the lack of women on women, I'm like, Wait, excuse me wait but what did you say, so you see I'm saying. So if you open the job up some. If you diversify the position, and I put a couple of extra angles in there, because you have programs now people are graduating wildlife ecology and environmental science. They're graduating environmental technology and Environmental Engineering, they're graduating forestry and business, you see. So, the positions need to open up some tools so they can attract better talent and I need this back, Laura, I'm serious. I've never said it like that before. I gotta hear this back that that is good. And don't delete these pauses out, no keep this, because, you know, because I've been wondering how to communicate this with our friends and. And I just feel like I'm I'm capturing it.

Laura:
No, I love it.  I get criticized all the time and one of our just previous guests was, she's all over the map from, you know, doing very spiritual things to very scientific, technical things, we are, you know what, we've had this notion that people should be just narrowly focused on one thing, but to me like I live once, I'm not going to focus on one thing, let me down. Before we jump off with this topic and start talking about some of your other interests, when we talked before, you told me about you in the forest and the connectivity of the trees. And I just want to hear more of that again, like how being in the forest, and your vision of how the trees were interconnected, changed the way, Might go back to more of your finding introvertness in the forest.

Dr. Easley:
Yeah, yeah, it's okay. We're getting back to this, bringing me back. Well, in some ways, and I'm not going to get too spiritual here but to answer that question I have to reflect on two facets of me and it's the spiritual part, and the outdoors part, the spiritual part enough practice, just a couple of religious that a lot so I'm not like everywhere, but I've definitely explored a lot of religious because I've traveled from unfortunately to go to many different places and just seeing the different names, different titles different dresses different styles of different practices they kind of all say the same thing that we're all connected. What I do impacts you impacts the earth. I am part of something that's bigger than me. Now, in religion, they do what they say there's God, you know, in science we and maybe even in academia philosophy we say the death, we say the death consciousness, but I believe that in the environmental, environmental fields we say that's nature. Yeah, we, we say that that's the environment and the forests, you know, which I really should say the forest because this is running one planet, you know it's just like there's no third world I can't stand that term anymore, it's all one word, you know, so what's on one planet is one big ecosystem. And the water proof the trees, the trees, feed us up as green, we turn around and give the tree something to Trees give us more, you know of what we mean way more than what we give in. And so we are connected to that tree. And so in nature and then if you go to certain cultural practices right, they will say, especially in the indigenous and I'm talking about this country Turtle Island indigenous, you know, we will say that the trees are our relatives that we are connected to the trees and if something that helps you breathe it gives you life, and life is definitely teaching you something.

Laura:
Speaking of, what's your favorite animal?

Dr. Easley:
Oh, man. I don't know. When I grew up a dog I guess.

Laura:
A follow up  question.  How do you feel about bears?

Dr. Easley:
How do I feel about bears, yeah. Oh the utmost respect. I've been, I've been charged by one so I mean, I don't ever want to see one in person. That is a bear is better. Being an enemy, because I don't need to make it one to to know that I'm not its friend, right there, you know. So the bear's like a living lesson.

Laura:
How'd you get charged?

Dr. Easley:
Working out in Montana man I was running a profile was this this is a summer of 90, summer of 98 I believe. This is years ago,  years ago. I'm dating man. Yeah, I'm running a Traverse, we were split into three. I mean we're split, three people into one basically you know I went straight down, Jim went this way Steve went this way. And we were. I forgot how far we were, how long we're working but I know I think I probably walked at least five miles in the forest. That day, when you're running a traverse, when you're, when you're running a profile, you traverse a scene or plot where you profile, you know, like your to run a profile means and I'm gonna get like the elevation. I'm going to also capture like inventory like what species do I see are nearby. And to be honest with you, unfortunately as like I'm talking about running a profile to talk about how to extract trees. Okay. And, you know, was in a lot of brush so I couldn't see in front of me, and I came into a clearing finally came to like an open opening and I can like see around me are so beautiful, you know, you see so many white pines that have fallen and, you know even a couple of deer like fall because it just it was so plush there. And long story short I just look in front of me while I'm still running the traverse. And I see something that looks like a cinnamon colored muffin from far away from far far far away. Okay, but I couldn't make it out. And I was hungry, maybe that's what I'm saying muffin now. Okay, yeah. And as I kept working, it kept getting closer. And I didn't need it wasn't long before it was probably, I mean I have really good vision. Like I can see like 20/15 so I can see something that's even 800 to 1,000 feet away from I can see it, You know and I can see further than that, but it was further than that but it was far enough away like I can see it to the next subdivision from where I'm sitting in the house that's across the street from the house that's on my side. And it was further than that and I knew then I'm like, Oh, man. Yeah, and I never seen a bear in person, I never seen that before. And I was by myself and I did not break the rule which is to be quiet in the forest. I was loud and things knew that I was there. So, at that moment I don't remember what I did and what I said I know that I cursed a lot because that's what Jim told me.

You know, but the bear, you know just charged and then, you know, didn't get too close, you know, took off. If they had gotten close I wouldn't be here now, you know, because I was in this habitat. And I'm out here like, you know, getting elevation, Getting data getting heights of trees and stuff and you know in getting you know how many board feet I think is here and nothing saw me. Now, another thing that it could also be because it was a baby, it wasn't like full full grown, either I can tell. But that's my black bear story.

Laura:
Nice. Well, you know that I love music. Nick loves music. Yeah, punk and hip hop are like my go to for motivation. And so that's one of the reasons we connected I think when I came across, he was like, I need to meet this guy. Because you make hip hop. So I just wanted to hear about how that's going. And you know, how you incorporate that in with what you're doing now and tell us more about your art.

Dr. Easley:
So I hear you, I am so proud to really be a person that is what I consider of the hip hop generation, because when I was younger, you know, hip hop, and I'm talking like 80s in particular you know once we got to the 90s hip hop was here, like it was Yeah, but you know the 80s, we were still, you know like go I should say, because I was a consumer, you know by like 82.  

Already at four years old I was already like, What is this, but, you know, as I got older, I always wondered what would it be professionals, you know that enjoyed, hip hop, you know, would they ever be a president that recognized hip hop. And we've had that yes, yeah. Who would ever be, you know just CEOs who address and understand Hip Hop. Lawyers who would get it. Doctors who would get it. And so now the answer is yes, you know, and I'm proud to say that I'm a university administrator, that is hip hop, you know I'm a university administrator that I know that you can see it in my sway you can hear it in my talk, I just say the swag I didn't even finish the word.

I'm sitting here with this toboggan on I mean you know sitting here like hip hop you know like yeah just like fully comfortable in my environment and how is it going it's doing much more it's more active now. And it's definitely more known now, and I'm proud to say that you know I mean we still have more ways to go but, you know, hey, however the most out we're having to work out you know we move with the universe, but Laura when we last talked at first talk I should say, too. I didn't have, like I had a crew. It was a crew of us, but we hadn't put out a crew project, well technically my albums are like crew projects you know but yeah now other people's projects are turning into that, but we hadn't put one out as a collective and then we finally put that out last year. And from there that burst. Other numerous projects, you know, as you said before COVID, We had an hourglass in 2020 BC just before COVID We had our first, we call them old hair because that's what it called itself, he came out, we started putting out more instrumental albums Joe Tea, the producer, you know B finally came out, you know, and brought out a rec with Sitch, now he has great management is doing big a thing you know Mitch, you know, continuing, so everyone got active. And so now this year 2021 So far, and we say 2021 A.D., you know after Donald. We, that's going to be B's next album, so I can't take it, but no one can the URL. I already got it anyway, back her. Now, many, we're all active at the same time. So we just have projects coming out and with me still being kind of like the dean of the dangerous if you will, I'm still the nucleus, but I'm now slowly becoming not that connected with each other, and so I was like opening things up for me now.

Laura:
Cool. That's awesome.

Nic:
Yeah, that's great.

Laura:
I keep supporting and listening, when you have new stuff coming out.

Dr. Easley:
Thank you. Thank you. I got a new one. I got a new one coming out about leadership, I think this is gonna be, There's gonna be a big one.

Laura:
Yeah, you're combining the earth and the trees and, like, yeah, some of my most favorite hip hop is very much, you know, it's not the stereotypical derogatory, you know, I love binary star and some of the ones that are just like, let's talk about life is good, right, and what we can get out of it. Yeah, and I feel like there's a little bit of resurgence in hip hop, I don't know if you feel that, but I. 

Dr. Easley:
Oh yeah, well, you know COVID will bring out a pandemic or I think anything that challenges humanity will bring, or cause artists to either come together and create the best art that we've heard especially at that time, and I'm not I'm not on the side of politics or, you know 45 in particular, you know but I know that that was a problem but it wasn't just him. Yeah, well yeah, that was just a symptom of the overall issue. But when I think about all the music that came out that was amazing, all of you, I'm like, what, what are we doing, excuse me, Travis Scott even got to look up and walk.

You know so yeah just I'm just proud you know the Rhapsody  she's just the illest, you know, so you know just to hear just all this great stuff so I think that bad things badness sadness, you know tragedy, sometimes does at least bring some greatness out in art.

Nic:
Yeah, for sure, environmental racism is a really powerful topic that you address through music projects and it's really incredible so. So how does that work and what challenges have you had to overcome?

Dr. Easley:
In that respect, because like I was smiling because I'm working on a project right now call Welcome to the ER. Yeah, seven years ago and I had this idea it was gonna be something that I'll be I'll say corny but you've been an educational roller coaster. Yeah, that was an education of like ransom note the document and all that stuff right that's yeah, Want to hear that crap. And now, with the name and what I'm doing on like me and B and I got together about a month ago in the studio and I said, you know. Yeah, what if we brought that idea back up E.R. Yeah, and he said E.R. what? And I said Environmental Racism. And he was like dog and I was like, first song, Recycled. So we have a new song called Recycled but it's different, we're like, talk about like, Don't come to me talking about recycling basically when I'm like in a place I'm trying to survive, like you're going to talk about, yes. Yeah, exactly what the list recycle some history here you know this list is redistributed some resources.

I got another song called Black Belt. You know, being from Alabama, and the black belt of Alabama. There are many homes and particularly, read Catherine Flowers' book,  Waste, you read a lot about this beautiful book but it's about some other unattractive things going on in my home state, people live and walk through raw sewage. And so I have a song called Black Belt where acknowledging that but also I'm like doing a play on the words black belt over discipline weapon so I'm like playing with the word black belt like what the hell we live in. So, how black belts can also, you know be, you know what I'm playing with the black belt but using that. So we have a new project that we're working on now, going back to Studio after this interview as a matter of fact, to keep working on like at least four more songs which will be in a long time. But anyway, I'm just gonna be honest with you, Nic, because your partner and I have had an interview so I can be honest with with you. I resisted, doing things musically and abroad mentally for about, I brought out Hip Hop forced to the 2018. Yeah, and I resisted it in 2019 and 2020, just to be honest with you because I felt like I started to get pigeonholed or for one freakin song. Yeah, one song,  one song, and that was the hip hop Forestry song, and not that I'm mad about it but I'm writing and the folk come out to me and want to hear about one freaking song I'm like, man, I've been rapping for like man for so many years, you won't have I done. Yeah right. My face man like days like that that's how I felt so I just didn't want to make zero.

Laura:
I think that means you somewhat made it, that's what I think probably everyone says that.

Dr. Easley:
Yeah but I didn't want to make it like that, you know, where its like, because forestry for me it's like I mean you appreciate that Laura I know you to Nick You know that is a part of me it's not all of them, you know. Right, exactly, but I feel like that's how people treated it so me environment, and music and art. I was just at odds with it for like two years I'm like I don't want to do anything that's cheesy to me, that's corny to me. Listen to the rest of my music, because the rest of my music is about what I actually do which is what I'm a diversity professional. I tried to help organizations in my organization Institute fairness in a place that's not meant or built for it. That's what I'm really about. Right. And I'm just fortunate that it transcends into forestry it transcends into the environment because it is my, it is my opinion that you can treat the environment great without treating people great in 2021 Oh thank you and 2021. After working on his album that's called Life of a leader that'll be coming out soon sometime I can't tell everyone when because when it does, some other stuff's going to happen around it. I'm proud of the people waiting on that.

Nic:
I love it. I love a tease.

Dr. Easley:
And that's for sure he's like, me, me, me by myself, you know, like this is like, this is the one like this. And people are like trying to get rid of what I'm like, Yeah, after that, interestingly enough, I will say that this E.R. record will probably be the best thing that I've ever done, because it's like because it's really coming from. Can you imagine, it's going to come from a place of frustration agitation resistance and acceptance all at the same time. Yeah, so for me to make a song Black Belt and talking about discipline means I'm going to talk about abuse. Yeah, and then talking about the hell that people are like, What the hell we live in that the hell they live in because it's not hell someone else's made it. You know with hellish conditions but it's still not hell, it's our home. And so, you know it's going to be great, but yeah it has been challenging me because there's too much to talk about. I mean, when COVID hit the dolphins were happy. Uh, the birds came back.

Laura:
I know. I don't even want to go back out in my car.

Dr. Easley:
Right, yeah. You see, you see.

Laura:
So, Most people don't care which makes me sad.

Dr. Easley:
We want to get back to normal, but that normal is not sustainable. And it never, we've never had an affordable health care system, what they have me talking about when we talk about health care. It's never been affordable, you have to have a job to have insurance to be able to get care. Which means the money is in the sickness, not in a care. Okay, now let's come back to the environment. We care about the environment, and we want to let's say those people who want my industry to stop harvesting and cutting which I agree because I think that some things should be slowed down and stopped in many ways, look I'm in agreement with you. But you know who uses toilet paper. You who writes on paper, you who builds homes out of wood. You who builds clothing out of wood, you who  use wood for anything. You're a part of the problem too then.  It's not the industry alone because the industry is going to say that they're supplying the need what the need is everybody else.

So I'm writing about environment and justice as easy, just tried to listen to what the earth is feeling. Yeah. And, I'm never going to be able to run out of things to write about them, you know, that's my dream is that I would, but I'm never going to be I'm not as long as we keep reproducing and over producing, as long as we keep over consuming. And the truth is, as long as we keep mistreating each other. It will manifest in how we treat the planet is not the longest but I really feel like I'm clear today for some reasons.

Nic:
No. You know it's it's great, it's wonderful, and I guess you also have a podcast right Heartwood and that is that are these kinds of topics are these the kinds of things that you see on that, what's the show about?

Dr. Easley:
Well, when we first started, because we're in our third season now and I'm proud to say Laura talk about hip hop, I interviewed one of my favorite celebrity rooms on my podcast Goodie Mob.

Laura:
I saw that.

Dr. Easley:
yeah okay and with Michelle Lanier representing Duke University. She's brilliant and amazing and every right, not her own, just every right. And we were able to support you know each other and it was her idea. And we were able to get Goodie Mob. And I'm so proud to share the platform one, you know with her and two talk to these four men who for me really impacted my life as a youth, especially CeeLo Green, you know who everybody knows, you know, forgive you and praise you. I got to talk to CeeLo Green like you can't tell me anything. Okay.

But we started three years ago, the podcast was about the intersection of diversity, equity and inclusion specifically in environmental disciplines, and it still is, it's just been in the first we had a lot of people that were a part of the forestry discipline. So we did that the second one we opened it up because we environment is not limited by our meager understanding of the environment is the environment. So I opened it up and more amazing people on there, and even invited a couple of people back like Dr. Jennifer Verdolin and she's an amazing wild scientist period. Okay. Personality too and she makes me laugh every dadgum time I'm talking to her. And, but she's amazing brilliant, beautiful, bold, all of them. So then we will have what we're gonna do for the third season. Like it's a sitcom.

And as we're thinking about that and I'm blessed to say this, like my notoriety increased, you know, so that I have a book coming out later this year I've been talking about that before we leave and close. But I had a few publications that kind of gave me some notoriety, I was on my name was mentioned on The Real last year for the four women we're talking about me and rapping my song, Hip Hop Forestry.

This year I was on I'm on the Weather Channel twice as my grandma, she was still alive and when they would say God is good.

So I was like, so the people that yeah we're more like you need to we need to capitalize on what's going on and I'm like, What do you mean, because in our second season we did have our first celebrity artists on there which was Chris Webby, the biggest selling platinum selling over platinum selling artists in New England. Yeah, we were like, Let's see if we can get some celebrities on this one unless we can get some more people right when we if we could get Rue Mapp and Chris Webby.

We've had the planet Walker, that the Jennifer Aniston and her. She sang with Oprah.I'm so glad that Michelle said, let's see if you can get the Goodie Mob and we got it. That's great, and they're my student worker engineer now friend, you know, don't be my like minimize the student, he's an amazing student, the Dean Damian, from Pittsburgh, man, my brother soul. Amazing, He's lovely and brilliant too bring him to, you know, because here we had Omavi Minder, so we got another celebrity hip hop artists and met your brothers from North Carolina. We're an environmental rapper. Yeah, so now I would say the podcast is about real life is still about the play of the words Heartwood, you know, which means that we are still dealing with matters of the heart but how we impact the woods but we're really dealing with that, straightaway, um, we have a lot of diversity anyway you can see I'm proud of it. And I'm just happy. So yeah, I'm sorry, I'm done.

Laura:
Yeah, and as you can tell it's a good lively podcast I'm sure and lots of fun to listen to you. It has to be Yeah, yeah, it has to be. Yeah. So tell us about your book too.

Dr. Easley:
Mind/Heart for Diversity is about how to use your head and your heart at the same time of going through challenging situations and still maintaining perspective. And that's really, I really have to get a copy of this, this entire interview because I am saying things. Quote me this and you have to quote me okay.

I'm also teaching about how I learned these lessons, you know like I talked to you to you. I give you a story for being a campus pastor, I give you a story from being a professor I give you a story from being a diversity professional, so that you can see that I'm pushing even against the culture of, like I said, you know. But I want you to see every part of me informs the other parts of me at the end of each chapter. There are questions, so if you want to go into diversity if you want to start a diversity initiative. This book is for you, why diversity professionals engaged in his work. This book is for you. If you're a person who goes I don't know I don't understand diversity I don't know how to talk about it I really wrote it. Like my friend Dr David Washington did the I'm name dropping.
I wrote it in a conversational way, I really wanted this to be like I'm talking with you. Yeah, so the diversity of vernacular is there, but the conversational tone is really what this is, so I'm not because I'm now I know the vocabulary I know the terminology, but I don't get, I'm not gung ho about it because the English language is very limited. And just as great as we came up with people of color PLC now was BIPOC Black and indigenous and other people of color, and I noticed that the more creative we get, the more exclusive we get because I'm black and indigenous and I can't stand that term.
So, because I'm like what's up with the exclusion. Why we have to do that, we still haven't got PLC straight yet.  Like why we separate that out what's going on to George Floyd and Breonna Taylor been going on so why are we doing that now. Yeah. So, this is my opinion about it.

Laura:
You know like and either I mean I just get to be white, I'm not just white. I'm also indigenous but I don't get to go around saying I'm white and  indigenous. It's different but I hear you.

Dr. Easley:
So we got to do something about that. So I'm teaching through examples, and then at the end of the book, you have, kind of like a guide, how you can apply this, so you don't have the different knowledge that are covered in the book so I'm proud of it. I wrote it, I actually originally wrote it in 2016. It went through a lot of different editions oh my goodness I'm talking about people tore that book up. And then finally after I got published at Yale in 2019,  someone reached out to me interested in me writing a text and I was like, I actually already have one, and it's been edited 15 times and you can edit it again if you want. They read it, we're like, whoa, wait a minute, why did you write this and I was like, you know I wrote it down but, you know, but it sounds like you wrote it yesterday I was like, what I know. So now, Martin Luther King wrote a book called Where do we go from here 67 is still relevant now, 54 years later, you know that's what happens when we speak true truth doesn't really go out of style.

Nic:
Man, that's a good that's a great meme that's the quote right there, "Truth doesn't go out of style". And I know we're running low on time here for sure but, like, you have so many things that you're working on. It's incredible, you know, full time job, hip hop a podcast book, how do you find time to relax, how do you fit all that in.

Laura:
And you work out. I know you work out.

Nic:
Yeah, how do you balance all of that?

Dr. Easley:
It'd be nice to your future self. So then self time and space. You have to give yourself that time, if I don't meditate in the morning, and I have a couple of days you know here no I don't meditate, you know, I don't meditate and do yoga, and maybe get some jump roping and pray. It's not going to be as good of a day because I haven't prioritized myself, and I haven't slowed everything down, so that I can at least be grounded in what's going on right now like, you know, there's my foot is aching, you know, to be able to acknowledge okay, my foot is aching. You know I think that, you know, this work culture tells you to work until, well, you know what I still look at the suicide rate in the world, you know, the lowest rate is with the poor and impoverished people it's not going to didn't happen but it's still the low rate for an impoverished. Isn't that fascinating people who don't want to take themselves out who have the least in the world, or want to take themselves out and then you see the more than suicide. Those who have too much. And so, it's the same with the work culture you know like we work, we have been socialized or really forced to work around the clock and work during the best hours of my life. Yeah, which is when the sun is up, you know, so I'm giving the best hours of my life to an employer that's called slavery. Yeah, whether people want to, you know, acknowledge it as that or not that's called slavery, you know because you basically work with a slave wages because they're not paying you, what you're worth, they pay you what you negotiate. Alright okay well I understand this system now as an entrepreneur, I get it now. And so, I recognize that I have lived that way too, and so I don't want to treat people that way I have a business I have a staff now, we're fortunate I can say that this is a wonderful thing, not rich yet I won't I won't go there but, you know, but things are going pretty pretty good. And I don't want them to feel like, I feel so I also try to let them know that their peace is supposed to be their number one priority, their peace, not my peace. Your number one already know my peace is my number one priority right now peace is your number one priority, because if you're peaceful, we should be able to work this out. We haven't crossed the line of something that needs to be worked out. And so that's how I treat myself so that I can treat other people that way. So it's a necessity for me to take care of myself now, and even in the COVID times and people and vaccinations and all of that, you still can't go wrong and taking care of yourself, that's the number one thing to do falls into vaccines that are you taking care of yourself, you know, emotionally, mentally, physically, and so I've made time to prioritize that before work and I prioritize that over work.

Laura:
Oh my god, this has been so much fun catching up with you. You know, I don't. Is there anything else that we have not touched on that you want to share with people, you get the book the podcast, your music, you know, students can connect with you if they're interested in getting into Yale Environmental Studies.

Nic:
Yeah, what's the best way maybe what's the best way for people to get out. Yeah.

Dr. Easley:
If you want to talk about graduate school, or work in a professional school, you want to talk about forestry, academia, or logging your career or something like that. Reach out to me through my email contact Thomas easley@yale.edu. If you want to talk to me about diversity consulting. If you want me to come in and help you or your organization help your company or help your student body or help your department or college or school, to better integrate diversity and to better understand it, and how to use it as a problem solving tool. And as an aspirational tool to make your environment better and to increase your diversity reach out to me at info@easleybranch.com, I didn't want to talk to me about music, want to talk about hip hop, about doing some work, also email me at info@easleybranch.com. Yeah, yeah yeah and go to my website RaShadeasley.com and you'll get to see you get access to all of my music there. But, you know like follow me online follow me wherever you get music still have 2021 is going to be yeah I got some things for me and my kudos to so it's not just me, yeah great mountain lions is still at work, and I'm amazed at the things that we're doing that taught you? I write songs with you? I signed you?
Oh my goodness it just it's crazy, just to see like what is happening now, so it's a blessing so thank you for letting me be on your platform, you know, again, your platform, collectively, you know, meet new faces. Yeah, a great.

Nic:
It's been a real pleasure, Thank you so so much.

Laura:
Awesome hopefully catch up with you before you're too famous to come on, or maybe not here. Look, we've got Rashad Easley on here.

Dr. Easley:
 I'll come back. If I get there. I said it, so I have to do it. Yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure. For sure, yeah I will I will come back . I would rather talk to people who know me, I can have real conversations period.

Laura:
I was just going to say. I hope I'm in the I knew you before you were famous friendship ring.

Nic:
We've got the recording right here so we're good. Thank you so much.

All:
Later. Later. Bye bye

[Outro]

Laura:
That's our show. Thank you so much Dr Easley for joining us today. I look forward to checking out your book in a couple of months, and always listening to your music when it drops, please be sure to check us out each and every Friday, don't forget to subscribe, rate and review before you leave. bye 

Nic:
See you everybody.