Career Path to Planning, Challenges of Long-Term Planning, and Personal Growth and Balance with Katherine Amidon

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Katherine Amidon, Senior Water Resources Planner at Bolton & Menk about Career Path to Planning, Challenges of Long-Term Planning, and Personal Growth and Balance.   Read her full bio below.

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Showtimes: 
2:05 - Nic meets a Manta Ray!
5:26 - Interview with Katherine begins
9:03 - How do you plan well?
25:15: - AICP Certification 
33:27 - Field Notes with Katherine

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Katherine Amidon at https://www.linkedin.com/in/katherine-bernier/

Guest Bio: 
Katherine is a Senior Water Resources Planner at Bolton & Menk, a multidisciplinary firm offering a wide array of services ranging from planning, engineering, and design to project communications and GIS. She is a hands-on project manager who enjoys working alongside project stakeholders to work through complex projects. Katherine is passionate about projects involving water, equitable access to nature, and regional land use analysis. She considers herself a "forever sponge" - there is always more to learn. She is an active member on the board for Friends of the Reedy River and has been involved with the South Carolina statewide watershed planning process as the Vice Chair of the Saluda River Basin Council. When not planning, which she also does in her personal life, she can be found on her Trek bike, teaching yoga, or backpacking.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental nerds, Nic and Laura. On today's episode, Nic and I talk about his magical moment with Manta rays. We interview Katherine Amadon on her career path to planning, challenges of long-term planning, and personal growth and balance. And finally, here are some random facts about harpy eagles. One of the most powerful and largest raptors, harpy eagles are found in the rainforests of Central and South America. Like with most raptors, the females are larger than their male counterparts. In her prime, an adult female harpy eagle can grab targets weighing up to 20 pounds in flight and carry them without landing. The harpy eagle is recognized as an ecological detective. Oh, fun. The presence of this bird indicates that all species in the ecosystem are in total balance, and lastly, the harpy eagle was the inspiration behind the design of Fox, the Phoenix, and the Harry Potter film series. Oh, that's cool. If you're wondering, Sam, if that was a good one, it tied back to Harry Potter, so, winner. How about that?  Hit that music! 

NEAP just completed another round of essential and advanced NEPA workshops. Our next event is scheduled in person for November 13 and 14th in Denver, Colorado. These training workshops are designed for emerging and experienced environmental professionals engaged in the preparation of environmental assessments and environmental impact statements to fulfill the federal lead agency responsibilities pursuant to the National Environmental Policy Act. These courses are designed to help you understand the requirements and how to fulfill the spirit and legislative intent of NEPA. That's absolutely essential in a time like this where agency policies are being updated rapidly. Please check that out at www.AP.org. Let's get to our segment. They Yeah, oh man, so I finally saw manta race. I finally did it. Um, I'm not telling Tiffany. Yeah, it's, uh, or JD. I, uh, I'm saving it up for, uh, a good time to tell them to brag, honestly, once I like recover because I'm still exhausted from the trip. And like, it's like jet lag 3000, so. Yeah, I always get it hard, but I did get to see them. They're humongous. Clearly this was when you were in Hawaii. Right, yeah, that's actually the only place I think you can see them like, well, is in Hawaii. You can see them other places, but they're just hanging out on shore and they're huge. Did you get in the water with them? Oh yeah, 100%. And one of the people on the boat with us screamed every time they came near and Out of the water, called them dementors from Harry Potter, and I thought that was pretty accurate. It's pretty funny. They do just open their mouth and come at you and then turn at the last second, and that is when they're that big look you right in the eye while they're doing it. Yes, it's like that. Have you seen that meme with the seal that like flies by the aquarium staring at that kid like just oh yeah, yeah, I have actually, yeah, that's exactly what it is. That's exactly how they look at you mouth 4 ft wide. 

Yeah, exactly. So it is quite intimidating. They are so big, it's hard to really put that into words how big they are, and they're not even the biggest, like the, the ones in the open ocean get even bigger. Oh yeah. Well, so how many were there? There were like 8 where we were, like there were a ton of them, and there were some smaller ones and a couple of huge ones. And so that was pretty cool. It was epic. Everybody said it would be great, and it was. So now I can say that I've done it. So that box. It only took how many years?  Let's not put a number on it. But I don't know. Well, and how it wasn't, so you weren't scared because you said you thought you might be scared. Honestly, I was more nervous about like everything else in the water at night, but, and the guides were like, oh, well, there's no sharks here because the manners wouldn't be where the sharks are. And I wanna believe that. Like I just did. I just decided to believe that. I don't know how true it is, but it's like the sharks don't like all the commotion of the boats, and I also didn't believe that. But hey, you know, I just chose. But like when something humongous can sneak up on you. That's not a great feeling, so that would happen even knowing there's maybe you wouldn't like it if the boat captains were like. That would be bad. I mean, yeah, uh, yeah, 50th anniversary of Jaws, it's still in my brain. It is every time I get in the ocean. 

At least I could see the sea floor. I feel like if it was open, open ocean, no, I'm not doing that. Yeah, it is when you do it, it's kind of like enclosed. Yeah, sort of, sort of, it's hard to explain, it's far less intimidating than I thought it would be like, oh, we're all on a board together or whatever, a platform, yeah. Yeah, did you were like you had to put your feet on a floaty thing and then like lay there? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that made my arms start. Yeah, but it was fun, it was really cool. Oh yeah, totally worth it. Yeah, and the uh volcano erupted one day after I was there, uh, so that was really fun. I got to see the YouTube video of the volcano erupting. Uh, not quite as epically as it did a couple of weeks ago, but that was fun. It was a great trip. If you haven't been to Hawaii and you can get there, you should. It's a lovely place. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let me know when you get the manta tattoo and uh it's that interview. There we go. Hello and welcome back to EPR.  Today we have Katherine Amidon with us. She is in a senior environmental planner at Bolton and Mink and an AICP certified planner with experience in brownfield's water quality, parks and conservation. Welcome, Katherine. Thank you for having me. So excited to be here. Yeah, yeah, I really love to have you here. You know, honestly, I'm gonna have to ask you some nerdy AICP questions at some point, for sure. So sorry in advance, Laura, but you have an educational background in chemistry. You could have gone in any direction with that degree. How did you get to environmental planning? What led you that way? Well, there's definitely a long version of that story. I'll try to keep it brief here, but I essentially graduated with an organic chemistry degree and realized that I wasn't going to be a lab rat for the rest of my life. 

I needed to be in a more engaging environment, and I really enjoy working with people. And so I took a few years between undergrad and grad to kind of figure it out, right? Work, pay off some student debt, which I did, which was, you know, that's always a good move to make, uh, right after graduating. And I did some leadership work for Actually a grocery store chain called Hanford Brothers. And then after that, I worked at a winery, which was supposed to be just a summer job and turned into a two-year job where I was the lead chemist for the winery I was working at, which is, yeah, so cool. Best application of an organic chemistry degree, to be honest. No kidding. Yeah. So I had a really good time with that, and then I moved. I moved to South Carolina.  And I worked for an environmental consulting firm, and I was a field person, so I was out there doing groundwater and surface water monitoring, and it kind of clicked. I really liked being in the environmental space, and I liked consulting work, but I knew I wanted to do a little bit more with it. So I looked around and I had a lot of conversations with people who are willing to give time to me. And that's how I discovered planning, and so I decided to go after my AICP or my MCRP which is a Masters in city and regional planning, and turn my, I guess, passion for the environment. Into a focus in land use. And I like to say, I basically graduated with the drive to fundamentally change the way people think about water through land use, because that low land use choices have an impact on our water. Oh man, well, give me an idea of what you mean then.  What land use choices actually do drive changes to water. Yeah, so all of our land use regulation has some sort of impact on water, whether it's how much impervious surface we allow, which obviously has a big impact on surface water runoff and storm water, but also the way we build our communities and have growth occur has an impact on critical infrastructure. Including water and wastewater, but also other things like fire, healthcare, childcare, all the things, right? I just really get nerdy and excited about the water side. Right, right. Oh, that's great. 

And so when you're seeing those kinds of, uh, like, you're trying to talk about planning, right? You're talking about the future growth of an area. We always talk about like what I do, right? People are going to keep moving and there's gonna be more of them, and they're always going to need some place to go. How do you plan well? Because that's always the hard part, right? It's easy to say, well, we need them to go somewhere, but how do you plan well, especially in terms of water resources? Well, I think what defines well really depends on the community you're in, you know, I, my version of well isn't the same as somebody else's version of well. But I would argue that no matter what community you're in, good collaboration across disciplines is really critical. And so I think the communities where your water and wastewater utility provider is coordinating closely with the jurisdictions, whether it's a city, town, county within the region that those services are being provided. The better the outcome, right? The more willing people are to come to the table and have tough conversations about, hey, where should our industrial growth go? Where do we have excess water capacity for a high-water user? Where don't we? When those conversations happen, I think you have a better outcome.  Yeah, and is it like a sense of scale sometimes? Is it easier to plan in smaller places, or is it? 

You know, larger places have done this so often that they're very accustomed to, oh, we have a new change that we want to make, this is the process. That's a great question. I can't say that scale automatically, if you have a bigger place that that automatically means better planning. I think it really depends on the people and the willingness of the conversation to be had. Right. You know, it's funny, I, I almost asked you, and I'm gonna now, right? So you have an organic chemistry degree when most people don't even want to take organic chemistry, right? You have an AICP, um, is also one of the harder certifications to get. I'm sensing a pattern here. I don't know if that's like, you're like, I gotta find the hardest problem to solve, and I'll do that. Is that where that comes from? Why choose those two things that are so difficult? Yeah, I was that person in college that took the year of intra-organic and then wanted to take another year of organic, and then did a full year-long thesis in organic chemistry. I guess I don't like to be bored. I can tell you. Uh, I, I definitely, I approach every project that we get from our clients head on and look at it like it's the first time I've ever seen it, because with planning it often is, there is no rinse repeat. This process looks the same. It's constantly.  

Thinking about what's available, what information is at hand, who can we speak to, where are the gaps. And so that always leads to a very different pathway for a project and also potential outcome, which I would say earlier in my career, I kind of didn't like, cause I wanted to feel like I had some control. And now I'm realizing. It's the process is kind of the beautiful component of the project that makes it interesting and also allows you to be really collaborative with the client that you're working with. So, yeah, I don't know, I like hard things, Nic. No, it's such a great thing, that's a great point to make because I think a lot of times people have a perception of what work is going to be when they leave college, right? When they get into the work environment. And it's very often very, very different than that. I remember when I left grad school, I was like, I'm going to save every turtle there is. And then, you know, I immediately got a job in policy, which has nothing to do with turtles whatsoever, right? 

So, hey, policy could impact turtles yourself. I know, I know, right, like long term, it was like it takes you a minute, you know, it took me a minute to kind of figure out what does this even mean. So like that transition from, you know, like you're saying, like needing to be in control and understanding that some things you need to let go of, right? That is a hard thing to do.  Uh and how do you manage that transition because that's not easy. Oh, I think it's a daily practice. That's why I do yoga. There's no like, oh, I figured it out, and now I'm gonna be more comfortable in this uncomfortable space of the unknown. No, I definitely, I mean, I said that tongue in cheek, but I, I do do yoga to be a better person. Um. Fantastic, yeah. And then I think it's really leaning on my team. I really, the reason why I work at a multidisciplinary firm is I didn't want to work at a place where we all had drunk the same Kool-Aid in grad school, right? And we all thought the same way. I really enjoy working with our GIS staff. We have data analysts, obviously. engineers and saying, OK, this is what we have, like, let's talk this out. Like, what does it mean? What's the impact for the client? What's the impact for the project? So, yeah. Yeah. So give me an idea of some of the projects you work on then. So, are they, what, utility master projects? What kind of actual work are you doing? Yeah, so probably in the last 3 years, I've honed in a little bit on two very different areas of practice. One is utility master planning, focusing on water and wastewater utilities and helping them with master plans, and then the other is kind of in the parks and recs space, looking. 

At where parks can go, how you connect different parks and engaging with the community on what their needs are and wants are. I would say the, the water wastewater master plans, I kind of landed there because I was so passionate about the land use choices that were getting made, and I had one colleague of mine who works at a utility here in the upstate of South Carolina say, All right, I think I need a planner, an AICP certified planner to do the planning component of my master plan. We've always had engineers do it, but let's have a planner do it. And it led to a very different outcome and product, and also, I realized there's a massive gap in at least this area where engineers are doing these plans, and they're not doing as much of the land use analysis and population growth analysis that a planner normally would do in that role.  And so trying to bridge that gap between what planners and engineers do has really just skyrocketed and propelled the last 3 years of my career. Yeah, oh, it's so amazing. That's so interesting cause I, I've seen that exact same thing. And you know, sometimes you'll get planners will come in, they shouldn't come in at the end, but sometimes, you know, they'll get a plan and you know, here's the plan, and an environmental person will say, well, that's great, but that's extremely steep and you're adding a ton of impervious surface, and there's a navigable waterway right here. And what you're putting on it is going to cause that navigable waterway to have discharge, which means you'll need permits, da da da. And then you're saying all these things and you're watching everyone's eyes glaze over and you're like, Oh no, I've both lost and scared them because they, they like their bodies are, you know, their souls are leaving their bodies. 

So it's, that's really hard and I love to hear that because that's got to be pretty rewarding to be able to work collaboratively early instead of like coming in at the end. Oh, absolutely. It totally is. And so, when you have those projects, like, are there utilities that you work with that are more difficult than others? Like I, you know, I've worked with the military some and there's certain areas where they are, where the, you know, you have to scan the ground. To even decide where to put utilities because there's also, oh, we had bombs here and forgot that maybe we should figure out where we were dropping them.  Um, so we have to scan the ground for bombs in order to like, make sure we can actually put in a utility pipe, let alone plan for the long term growth of the place. Do you guys have unique challenges that you get with your projects? So, I definitely, I don't have difficult clients, and I'm not just saying that. What's difficult is the availability of data. And it just depends on how they've been storing that information or gathering that information over time. So, for example, billing data, if you're a utility and you're billing a customer, there's information that you can gather or not. Some don't gather a lot, and so you really can't differentiate some of the information that you're getting by user type, for example. Like if I don't know that this billing line is associated with an industry, versus a single family residence, that makes it hard for me to try to make some sort of generalization or observe patterns to help apply to future growth projections when it comes to flow. So that's been probably the biggest challenge is what data is available. When it's not available, how do you, how do you solve that problem? 

So, luckily, I mean, we live in a day and age where there is a lot of information. We use Ezri a lot to get some information so you can query Ezri, hey, what's the land use happening in this area and try to equate it, but anytime you're Doing some sort of data analytics or kind of making some approximation, you're adding in some inherent human error.  So, there's information out there, there's a lot of really great public information. USGS has an Eva tool that's publicly available that people can go and see land use. Change over time in a very quick snapshot at the county level and download that data. So, there's a lot that is available, but you have to think about every step of the process if you're adding in potential more error, and then what that impact could have on your end result. Yeah, that's gotta be a challenge. There's gotta be some, you have to have like, maybe there's like one thing you can think of, oh man, if only we had this. I don't know how often that comes up, but Oh, if only I had good septic data, that would be mine. You had it right on the top of your head. But like it's fun. So, so water for me, like I remember when I started my career, I was working with, you know, National Environmental Policy Act, and they, they all have all these sections, right? And you talk about things that are hard. We worked all across the country and no one wanted to do water resources because every state has its own requirements. Every state has its own information. And the availability and I don't know what the right uh greatness of that data really varied, and, you know, again, they have their own rules. So it fell to me and I was like, I'll do it cause it's hard, why not, right? 

So we have all these changes happening with water. And in the permitting space for planning the way you do, you know, we've had a lot of stuff happening since the beginning of the year. We just talked to Fred Wagner about a lot of changes to NEPA last week. So from your perspective, are you seeing changes to the jobs that you're working on as well? I see a little bit less and so much of the work that we're doing is more land use driven.  We are certainly acknowledging changes to uh wetlands and just state laws around flood plain and building in a floodplain. We tend to be a very development friendly state in general, but I think there's some serious recognition, especially along the coast, that We can't be ignoring what nature does best and keeping some of those wetlands so that we are allowing for that infiltration and avoiding flooding of people's property. So, yes, there are changes that are happening, but I think there's a general appreciation for having some respect for what nature does. Yeah, and it's a great point. Like NAEP, the conference, uh, institution that we work with, had their conference in Charleston this year. Yeah, while we were there, it rained. Right? But it wasn't a torrential downpour, it was just rain and our parking lot like filled up with water. I remember that too. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's just kind of such a wild thing to see that kind of like, oh yeah, no, yeah, the water's right here. It's close. So when you have like master planning is, you know, the way I see it, it's supposed to be a very long term thing, right? So you 10 year plan or a 50 year plan, whatever, a 30 year community engagement plan, whatever it is, how do you manage that when there are things like an area that has a very high water table or that maybe doesn't have the wetlands that it needs to take in that water. That's got to be hard to predict over time. Well, Alan, I'll start a little philosophical if you don't. Yeah, but long range planning is inherently hard. We don't do it well as a species. And the reason for that is because we're human, and there's an immediate need, immediately in front of us, and we want to address it and we want to conquer it, and that future thing. You know, there's the tragedy of the commons, which many people may know, but essentially the tragedy of the commons reflects on what happens if you have a common good, everybody equitably uses it, and that common good stays. If anybody decides to be selfish and overuse that common good, And their neighbor overuses the common good, and their neighbor overuses the common good, then it gets abused, right? What long range planning tries to do is take that, but then also put a temporal component to it, and that's been coined as the tragedy of the time horizon.

And so when we try to think about 30, 2050, definitely years into the future, we as humans are like, you know what, they're going to have better technology, they're gonna have more money, they're going to be able to figure it out. So let's just do the thing that's immediately in front of us, right? We're also, we don't like being wrong. And so when you project out that far into the future population growth, land use change, you're not going to be right. Um, every time I have a client go, OK, so this is going to be accurate, right? I'm like, Yeah, let me get my crystal ball out and shine it up for you. Like, no, I can't do that. But what I can do is tell you the data we looked at, tell you the flaws in each of those data components, which I don't think we do enough. We need to be more honest about the limitations of what we're doing, and then say, this is what it can do. This is one way to think about it. How do you feel about it? Let me hear your feedback, right? So, that might have been a longer answer than yours. No, no, that's, that's great. No, it's absolutely wonderful, and we're dorking out here and I'm really excited about that because you're talking about this and in my head I'm thinking, oh, census data is exactly like this, and you get the census, you know, 2020 census comes out, boom, and then. You'll see some people, they'll actually compare it to the American Community Survey there, and I'm always like, well, you can't compare data to itself, which is what you're doing when you're using a five year average, which includes this.

And like, again, I'm watching people's eyes glaze over, but it's true. It's, it's hard for people to understand that even when they're looking at it. I remember, uh, you know, gosh, it's such a dorky thing, but like my dad asking me about like our hometown, and he's like, they said it was, you know, like 25% of the town was under the poverty level. Is that true?  And I'm like, well, let's see, you know, when I type it in and, uh, it was, it was like, but it was like 24.6% or something like that, and they reported 25%. And I'm like, well, they're saying it's 25, it's a little bit lower than that, but that's, you know, that's OK. That's not too bad. But there is a line where that does change and that does matter. Oh, it does. And you have like people who take the census data, and then they use it to extrapolate and do things from that. And nobody's willing to admit, hey, the census data at baseline is inherently wrong. It's an estimate. It's the best we got. Is it right? No. Yeah, and it's even hard to explain to people, no, no, no, this is a 5 year average of what they, you know, it's not, you know, because most communities don't have census data every year because they're just not big enough for that to be important. So even that is really hard. So to kind of bring that full circle, I want to get into your AICP. I want to talk a little bit about like that certification, right? And that's a hard thing to get. You went after it, and I don't want to put you on the spot and ask you what it stands for because I know I can hear Laura yelling at me for not explaining an acronym. American Institute of Certified Planners. All right. Why did you decide to go after that and how helpful has that been for your career? I think that credential is pretty important for planners to get, especially because it's not like a professional engineering license where you have to have a PE and get credentialed by state. 

AICP is recognized across the US and even a little bit internationally as well. So, I wanted to have that because I'd gone to an accredited city and regional planning program, that's the logical next step. It's sometimes required with solicitations for work from clients that we would be interested in working with that you have that credential. And so I really just, it's kind of a no brainer, like, You might as well get this, plus, you have an opportunity to get continuing education credits to keep it, you know, current, and that's a way for me to stay current. I want to do that anyway. I, I have a little slogan that I want to be a forever sponge, and that's because I just don't believe in stopping learning. It's part of everyday life, and so, Getting that exam out of the way right after grad school as quickly as I could was important. And it was a very unfun chapter of getting up at 5 in the morning, studying before work, having a full day of work, and then doing practice exams on the weekend, but I just, it needed to get done. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, you've got it now, so it's all in the rearview. Were there challenges? I mean, like, obviously, that's not easy to do. Were you nervous when you took a test? Was it like, Oh yeah, who likes taking tests, especially not a long one in a room you've never been in with a crappy pencil and paper and you just like, I mean, it's not fun. And I didn't realize that I thought you'd find out later. And I literally, I ended the exam and it's like, you passed. And I was like, I mean, is this real? And you're not allowed to celebrate, like you're in a room with people who are taking exams for like med school and you have to be silent, right? So I'm like, I done? Can I celebrate? Like I walk out of the celebrate outside. And I'm like, I ended up with the moderator outside and I'm like, do you know if that's real? And I'm done. She's like, I don't know. I'm like, OK. So I waited to get the formal, I guess, email saying like, that I had passed. 

And then the American Planning Association kind of introduced this hybrid before I graduated from me from my degree, but essentially, I passed the exam, but I still needed a couple years of experience to prove that I deserved these credentials.  So I had to do that and then apply after the fact, which I did 2 years later. Yeah. Golly, you know, it's funny, like I remember going to grad school, like I took the GREs. I took a year off between and I was like, I can take a test without, you know, without even trying because like I just, I was, and then I'm like, I don't remember any math at all. I just not remember I mean I was great at English and writing and I was fine in math, but I didn't remember any of it. And it was such a funny thing because I was like, oh, yeah, I probably should have done this right away. While it's still in my head, so that's a great, great bit of advice. I love that you mentioned APA actually because you're, you're speaking this fall at the North Carolina, South Carolina conference. I am, yeah, right? So it's about the role, the role of planners in utility master planning. So what's the, uh, give us a sneak preview of what you hope to get out of that. So this is extra exciting because oftentimes we're trying to coerce our clients into speaking with us at conferences, but the opposite happened. My client was like, we're submitting an abstract for our current project, right? And I was really excited. So Taylor Logan, who's the planning director at Beaufort, Jasper Water and Sewer Authority, and I We are going to present at the combo North Carolina, South Carolina APA conference in October in Charlotte. And I guess sneak preview is, you know, we're just going to be real. We're going to explain why it's really important that planners insert themselves into this conversation, and you cannot wait to be asked to be given a seat at the table for these conversations, because it won't happen. 

You have to make it happen. You have to show up to the right meetings, introduce yourself to the right folks and say, hey, We need to be doing some of this pre-work before you make engineering decisions, especially costly engineering decisions as part of capital improvement planning.  So, we're gonna hit on that and we're gonna talk about some of the neat tools and innovative solutions we've employed with their master plan, which hopefully will be finished by the end of this year. That is very cool. I'm very excited that you get to do that. You'll have to tell us how it goes. Yes. Uh, but, you know, we're at a point where we love to ask our guests about their memorable moments that they have in the field. So we call this like our field notes segment. Um, you know, we ask your funny, scary, awkward field stories. So you told us about a moment involving a specific device that we use in the field. Well, some people use in the field, uh. Well, tell me about what that was. Yeah, I. So, I am a firm believer in stand-up pe devices for women. And it is really hard when you're in the fields, getting a water sample, getting a soil sample, observing wildlife to make the bathroom thing happen. And we call it green dooring and, you know, You have to go find a tree and squat and, you know, I just I'm not doing that anymore, and I haven't for years. And I use this device called the Pea Style. It was designed by a woman in Tennessee. Look up videos, they're awesome. And it really makes it so you can keep your pants on as a female and go to the bathroom outside. And it's very empowering. I feel like every woman should have one. And it's also just prevents you from having to maybe like squat and poison ivy. 

Like, you don't want to be doing that, right? It's really critical and I've, I've confused some male counterparts who, I guess were like watching me walk off into the distance and like notice that I didn't squat. And, um, they're like, huh, what's up with Katherine? And it's like, I just, I love it because it's a conversation starter, and it's, it's just, it's hilarious.  Yeah, that's great. And I mean, it's funny, it's like our cultural resources program manager, uh, is the person who taught me what that was. And she's like, we need to get these for everybody. And I'm like, yes, we do. Because it's, yeah, like you say, it's one of the weird annoyances of working in the field, you know, and like, yeah, go ahead. I was gonna say like there's even sites we have where there aren't trees. Right? There is nothing to squat behind. Oh, no, not at all. You're like double dooring it, maybe with your field vehicle and trying to create a stall of sorts. Exactly, yeah, and that's really tough and Honestly, it's just like, people need to be comfortable and they need to be able to do their jobs. And so that's, yeah, I love it. I love that you brought that up because that's such a great cool thing. So thank you. And also, I mean, it also allows women to be more modest in the field too, which I think is helps them have confidence in being out in the field, especially if you're the only female in a group of men doing a project, so. I advocate for it that way and also pro tip if you get one, which every female listening to this should get one. you can also use it at a concert where there's porta potties and you don't want to squat over the porta potty bike ride. I put it in my, my Back pocket, just, um, for a long cycle. 

So it has multiple uses. And when it's cold out, you get to keep your pants on. That's true. Yeah, that's all true. And stuff that, you know, men in general take for granted because I, yeah, exactly, exactly. That's great. And uh so like one of the other things we love to do is talk about our guests passions and the things that they love, well, you know, besides. Our device we just talked about, um, but, uh, you also mentioned earlier that you practice yoga, right? And you've been doing that for a pretty long time, like 10 years or so, and so you say it helps keep you centered, helps, it helps kind of balance, you know, the scale, so to speak.  What turned you on to that? How did you get into yoga? Ah, great question. So, you know, I like to do hard things, right, but sometimes I need to turn the brain off a little. So, I'm actually fortunate to say I've done some sort of yoga my whole life because my mom did yoga while I was in the womb. Um, and then, yeah, literally. Um, and then I really discovered it more as a, a regular practice in college, as a way to kind of get through my thesis, as a way to take a break from being in front of the computer or reading a book for school. And I liked it then, but I really came to appreciate it more in my younger twenties. 

And I did my yoga teacher training with my mom, which was a really amazing, rewarding experience in Maine. And then after that, I really was like, I wasn't sure I wanted to teach. It was, I'm kind of did it for my own awareness of the anatomy and fizz and thinking about our muscles and how they work in certain poses and Also harnessing the power of breath. It is the only automatic bodily thing that we do that we have some control over, right? Like, your heart beats without you telling it, brain snaps this fire, like all the things, but You can slow your breath down, you can be really intentional with that inhale, maybe finding that pause, letting the exhale feel like a complete release, and how powerful that can be. I employ breath techniques before I speak at conferences to help calm me down. So it has been a really critical component to, like, my daily life. Like, I, I need it.

 Um, it's funny cause even like, you know, we have a lot of, you know, people on, we talk about anxiety here and there, and it's one of those ones where, you know, like I have like a routine, like if I'm really stressed, I can do it. And by the end of that routine, I think one time in my entire life have I not been able to fall asleep right after. Like once, and that was like, you know, one of the worst days of my life. Truly terrible thing.  But like otherwise, it's the only way I can re-enter my head because I can stay in here for a really long time and that's really hard to do. It's hard to explain, but it's like if you just Give it a shot. It is worth it. And it doesn't take long, right? Small investment of time, big reward, a good night's sleep, priceless. I know, and it's, it's incredible how like if I do that thing and like, even if I don't get as much sleep as I want, it's great sleep and that's something that's like, like it's wild and so OK, so we're friends, that's good to know that we got point of the podcast, uh. But uh you mentioned Maine, and you said Hannaford and I thought I was in my head like, is this, is this Maine? Did you used to live there? Did you grow up there? Is that what? Yeah, born and raised. Um, OK, all right. Any of my friends that listen to this podcast will be like, oh, of course, you inserted Maine somewhere in there. I'm so Maine proud. I lived the 1st 26 years of my life in Maine, and I miss Maine summers, I miss cold water seafood, um, I, very different. 

I don't miss February, March, April, May. So I'm glad to be in a place where the weather doesn't hurt my face when I walk out the front door, but I really, yeah, I'm, I'm born and raised, true Mainer. Yeah, so where, where in Maine are you then? I grew up in Brunswick, and then I did my undergrad at Bates College in Lewiston. Oh, very cool. Oh, that's awesome. That's pretty fun. All right, so I know several people that have ties to Lewiston in particular, so oh my gosh, you know that, so. Um, very cool, that's really neat. Yeah, so anyways, I know we're kind of, kind of getting to the end of the interview here. This has been great. We've talked about a lot of different things, but to kind of like come back to it, like, the job you have is very, lots of different things, every job is different, that's all really cool. That's all really neat. What advice would you have for somebody who's trying to do, to get into that industry, to do the kind of work that you do? Consulting can have many faces to it, right? So if you're somebody who hasn't really honed in on what you want to do with your life, I'm still figuring it out. Let's just be honest here. Um, I think consulting is a really neat area to get exposed to. I didn't even really know what it was.  I didn't know what a planner was until I was probably 26 or right before I entered grad school. And so, I think being more curious about the types of jobs that you can have is really an important thing to do. I would also just say that your career doesn't have to have this clear path forward. And when I reflect on even what I've done so far, in my late twenties, I had anxiety about it because it seemed like it didn't have a theme. 

And now, I'm like, of course it had a theme. From this job, I took really important leadership skills, which Help make me a better teammate, hopefully a better boss. With this job, I took away just like really good communication skills and coordination and analytical skills that help me scrutinize data better, right? So, you don't have to have it all figured out. I do think there is a little bit of a theme of moving around more in the younger generation, and Maybe sticking out the uncomfortable just a little bit is not a bad thing, but that doesn't mean you have to stay somewhere that's toxic, obviously. Leave before it gets to be that point. I've been there, and that's not fun. Um, but yeah, I don't know if they, if somebody's really excited about planning, I think they should look at different accredited planning programs within the country. There's so many. There's also, I'm sure some programs abroad, but I would really talk to people, talk to students that are getting that degree. I'm always happy when somebody is like, hey, I just want to understand like what it is you're doing. I always make time for that because people make time for me, right? So it's really important to just keep having conversations and something will land, and you'll feel excited about it. Yeah, that's totally true. And It's such a great point you make at the end here because like to me, giving back like that, your time, right?  

Just answering questions from people is lovely. And I remember, like, you know, we always remember that when we don't get that guidance and support that we needed, right? I remember having a job where I had to like insert myself into the, the cool kids club just to get my work done, you know, and that felt tough. I did not love that. And so like, you know, I took from that like, OK. I'm gonna make sure people feel welcome here, and that's my goal, and I wouldn't. Necessarily have had that be the first thing. If I didn't feel welcome, you know, and it's kind of like this weird fun thing. So I love to hear that too, from other people as well. So, great, great advice. Um. And you've certainly, Nic, honed in on that skill because you have made this a very welcoming process. So. Oh, good, good. Yeah, I try, I do try. It's still, it's so funny because it's like the first real world job I had, and that was my first experience.  And it still sticks with me. I'm just like, make sure everyone's comfortable. Um, yeah, we are running out of time. So before we let you go, is there anything else we didn't get to that you'd like us to talk about? No, this is a great conversation. Hopefully, it's a little teaser for continuing the conversation with um you and those listening to this podcast. 

For sure, which is a great segue to my last question. If anyone does want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that? I would say the best way for them to do that, you can find me on LinkedIn. We can, I'm sure, hyperlink that some way, um, or you can email me, my current email address is Katherine, K A T H E R I N E.A M I D O N@B O L T O N-M E N K.com. Very cool. Thanks for being on, Katherine. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Nic. I hope everybody enjoys listening. That's our show. Thank you, Katherine, for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. Bye. See you, everybody.