Forced Job Transition, Career Reinvention, and Purpose Under Pressure with Dr. Jalonne White-Newsome

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Dr. Jalonne White-Newsome, Associate Professor in the Environmental Justice Specialization at the University of Michigan about Forced Job Transition, Career Reinvention, and Purpose Under Pressure.  Read her full bio below.

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Showtimes: 
2:12 - Learning a New Job
8:37 - Interview with Jalonne White-Newsome Starts
16:37 - Key factors to continue moving forward
31:34 - How to engage communities in today political climate
42:11 - #Fieldnotes with Dr. White-Newsome!

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Dr. Jalonne White-Newsome at https://www.linkedin.com/in/drjalonne/

Guest Bio: 
Dr. Jalonne L. White-Newsome is an Associate Professor in the Environmental Justice Specialization.  Building on her multi-faceted, multi-sectoral and diverse areas of passion, practice, service and scholarship, Dr. White-Newsome’s areas of research include: environmental and climate justice policy and practice; finding solutions to address the social, economic and public health impacts of climate change – specifically, extreme heat, extreme flooding, and specific health impacts on the elderly and children; examining how to integrate justice, equity and corporate social responsibility; and advancing justice-centered leadership across the environmental sector.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental enthusiasts Nic and Laura. On today's episode, Laura and I talk about learning a new job. We interviewed Doctor Jalonne White-Newsome about forced job transitions, career reinvention, and purpose under pressure. And finally, because Doctor Jalonne is also a Zumba instructor, here are some fun facts about Zumba. Zumba started by accident in the 90s when Colombian instructor Alberto Beto Perez forgot his aerobics music and used salsa tapes instead. Zumba fitness with no idea that was true. Yeah, I did. You know, but that's You gotta love how things come to be. That's actually kind of great, but Zumba, Zumba fitness was first introduced in the US in 2001 when it was brought to Miami, Florida, and one of the most famous Zumba moves is called the Beto shuffle, the single, single, double-double merengue step. Every Zumba class in the world incorporates this infamous move named after Zumba's creator. Zumba can burn hundreds of calories in an hour. And there have been studies that show how effective it is, and you burn more calories than kickboxing, power yoga, and step aerobics. So how about that? Now that I'm in my own apartment with some space, this is the perfect time for this to remind myself that I can Zumba in here. Oh, my goodness.

Hit that music. And start dancing!

NAEP is now accepting applications for the 2026 Jim Roberts scholarship. The Jim Roberts scholarship is awarded annually to junior, senior, or graduate students currently enrolled in an environmental program at an accredited university or college in the United States and its territories. The winner will receive a $2000 check made payable to the college or university to offset education expenses. Additionally, the winner will receive a prepaid year-long NAP student membership. Review the submission requirements and apply by December 31st, 2025. Check it out at www.NAEP.org. 

Let's get to our segment. 

What should we talk about? I mean, I'm learning a new job. I'm doing all that, and that's been really fun. Uh, let's just start there. What is learning a new job? What does that mean after all this time, like, yeah, so I did switch companies, and I am now at Jacobs Engineering. This is awesome. Yeah, it's very cool. I'm very excited about that and looking forward to the new challenge and getting my head around that and managing, I mean, let's just talk about you're going from a small to medium sized firm, medium sized firm to a gigantic firm. Like that's a big difference. So, like, you know, some people listening may not realize like, oh, it's just a new job. No, it's, it's a big deal. It's a big deal, you know, it really is. It really is and it's a really good challenge. It's a really powerful challenge. There's a lot of support, but there's a lot of eyes as well when you have that many people that you're responsible for, it becomes a pretty big deal, pretty big deal to do anything and you know, it's, how do you learn people, how do you learn a system very quickly so that you can get adapted to a culture. And earn people's trust and respect, and that's basically what I've been doing for, you know, for, well, actually that's not fair. The first like week I'm literally trainings and trainings and trainings and trainings, and then proposals right away actually, which was kind of funny, and now it's, it's like, OK, let's go through the list, let's pull things together, let's start getting my name out there to people and being accessible, right? I think we've talked a lot about leaders and I would love your perspective on this, you know, like, When you have, you get to a place where you're intimidating by virtue of what your position is, not who you are, that's kind of a change, and I think even with NAEP as the vice president of NAP I've witnessed that, you know, where it's, oh, people are like, oh, you don't have the time to talk to me, but if you could. 

Instead of just saying hi, you know, they're worried that they're wasting my time and I, I'm not used to that, and it's such a shift where I have to go out and meet people where they are, you know, we talk about introverts and extroverts, you know, where it's like easy to, if you're an introvert, but you're people know who you are, they'll come up to you. I mean that's nice and easy and that's not the case for me sometimes, and I, I know I have to actively go out. So that's been a change, and I have to like put my name out there, say I'm, you know, I'm not so busy that we can't talk. You know, and it's kind of a challenge. It's kind of, it's new, and I don't know I'm saying this well, but to me that's important. It's really important to be, I guess, humble is the word, but like, not even, I think humble and accessible are two different things, humble and accessible, yes, or not humble. You can be very arrogant and still be accessible. Yeah, I guess that's fair. So I mean, I don't know what your perspective is on that because that's a new thing for me. I like to think that I'm very open, that I am very approachable, but as you go through your career, sometimes that's not the case. I think it just goes back to trust and reputation and, you know, what we call your brand these days, and I think people are gonna assume you are busy, or they are taking up your time or, you know. As a more reflexive way to behave, just knowing that there are people who are going to say I don't have time or act like they don't have time, and then until they learn that you're not that way. That's the default, right? Yeah. So I think it just takes time, and you have to, cause you also have to walk the talk. Some people are gonna say they're accessible and I mean, we used to have quote unquote an open-door policy. You hear this everywhere all the time. Oh, we have an open-door policy until you speak in that open door and have it spread everywhere. Some people don't understand that that actually means like open door, closed mouth, like. 

Right, right, right. You can be in the room. I just won't talk to you. Or you can be in the room and you think it's private, but I'm going to tell everyone because I have an open-door policy, you know. So people have to learn what you say versus what you do versus, you know, like, consistency over time. That's a really good one. And that's something that I learned. I had a mentor of mine back in the day. One of the things that she taught me was. People pay attention to what you do more than what you say. What you say is important, it does matter, but if what you do does not back up what you say, like if you say, I will get this to you by Friday, and you don't think it's a big deal to get it to them on Monday, so you just wait until Monday, they'll remember that when you say you're going to be late, that's like the thing that you've created is the perception that you're not someone who will follow through on a deadline. Exactly, if, even if it's self-imposed, right, so you tell people that you have an open door policy or that you're approachable, and then they come to you one day and you're like, I don't have time, or, you know, I'll get back to you and you don't get back to them, they'll be more receptive to that message you've sent them than the words that came out of your mouth. Right, exactly. So, and it's a big task. I'm really excited to, to dive into it and I'm looking forward to, I've met some people already. I'm kind of on my way through an org list to meet everyone and uh do my best to put on a good face. Yeah, it's funny, some of it is, I don't necessarily love the phrase drinking through a fire hose, but it does feel kind of like that, you know, where you're just like, whoa, I've got a lot to do. OK, all right, here we go, but like I got a presentation that I need to give and that's gonna happen. Like next week and I don't even know what it's about, but they're just like, hey, you can do this and I know I can, and that part's really cool. 

I'm like, oh, I'll read through this, I'll be prepared and this will go fine and that's pretty exciting, so I love that kind of thing too. Yeah, and that part is just, you know what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've done it before. I mean, honestly, like even going through proposal stuff, it's like, oh, I know what this is. I know how to do this. I know the best way to organize this and get people to have consensus because even if I think it's the perfect way, there may be a good idea that can still get this done well and that's exactly what we did a couple of times already and that's been pretty fun and I, I like that. I like how collaborative it's been. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, If you picture it yourself, there's always a pecking order no matter where you are, unless you're the few, few, few people who are at the tippy top. So, you know, I'm sure there's people that you would feel the same way that if you wanted some of their time, you'd be like, oh, I'm so sorry. I mean, we are like that on the podcast. There's people we want on the show that were like, I don't think they'd want to talk to us, but maybe right, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, we've had people even say that to us, right? Like, why did you want to interview me? You know, we've had that happen and we're like, because we, because we thought you'd be interesting, and you were so. Yeah, yeah, so if you're listening and you know some of these people, send them our way. Yeah. That's perfect. That's what a good spot to end there. 

Let's get to our interview. Welcome back to EPR!

Today we have Jalonne White-Newsome with us. Jalonne is the associate professor of environmental justice at the University of Michigan School for Environment and Sustainability and a former federal chief Environmental justice officer at the White House. Welcome, Jalonne. Glad to be here, Laura. Thank you. Uh, we are excited to have you here, and I don't think an hour is gonna be enough. So we're gonna just do our best here. So you've worked in a ton of different roles, even just introducing you. I have so many questions, right, and you've been in engineering, community work, philanthropy, federal leadership, and now you're in academia. Can you give us just a little recap of your professional pathway? Man, so first of all, thanks for the opportunity to have a conversation with you all today and I had never planned to kind of have a career that traversed all these different spaces, but I'll try not to bore you, but I started out in chemical engineering, working in production and manufacturing facilities both in Michigan and Texas, and it was amazing. I loved wearing a polyester uniform and steel-toed boots and climbing up distillation columns and working in plants that operate. 24/7. It was an amazing experience. And from that, I really learned that again, this thing called environmental justice or injustice was reality for so many communities across this country. And so leaving the engineering side, I went straight to state government. So I moved to Maryland and worked for the Maryland Department of the Environment as a public health engineer, which I had no idea what that was because I didn't know what public health was. 

But there. I had an opportunity to, I would say, get folks, and this is really part of this part of my job, to encourage state agencies to use clean fueled vehicles at that time, which this is going to date me, was compressed natural gas, and we had gotten two hybrids in the total state of Maryland. So it was like going from internal combustion vehicles to state employees try this thing that you think is going to blow up on you, but it's really safe, so. It was a lot of my job by convincing folks to car share; to use alternative forms of transportation that of course would protect the environment and I spent a little time in the legislative session in Annapolis as well, representing and worked in environmental justice there. So I kind of had my public health engineering role but supported the commission on Environmental Justice and Sustainable Communities. That the state was running and so again, got my feet wet going across the state of Maryland, just listening to the stories of communities and really trying to figure out back then what a community benefits agreement would be or could be in certain situations and, and how you could kind of coexist with industry in a way that was, you know, productive and, and healthy and safe. Those communities that happen to live near industry. So I left state government, came back home, went back into industry, in the auto industry, stayed there for a little while, and got this bug to go get my doctorate, which I had no desire to until a mentor of mine said, you know, if you want to be taken seriously as a woman. And as a woman of color and run a corporate environmental health and safety program, getting a doctor would be a good next step. So I applied to literally two schools, and I said at that time because I had a young daughter and one that was possibly on the way, that I would go get my PhD if somebody paid for it. And so that's exactly what happened at the University of Michigan, and I had an opportunity to Do my doctorate and at that time there was a lot going on but studied climate change and extreme heat and impacts on elderly persons and low-income folks. And then I went on to finish that, did a postdoc at the Union of Concerned Scientists as their inaugural Kindle Fellow in Climate Change and Health, had an amazing time there and learned why policy was so important. So, I end up Have an opportunity to be the first director of federal policy at We Act for Environmental Justice, which they're based in Harlem, New York, one of the oldest environmental justice organizations across the country, but they want to open a DC office. And so, for some reason they chose me. 

They were looking for a lawyer. I'm definitely not a lawyer. I did not pass the LSAT, but I guess they had something that I don't know, I had potential. So end up running their policy office for several years and just got to work with amazing community organizers across the country and really be the face of a lot of different organizations in DC and have access to the Environmental Protection Agency and all the federal agencies that we were bugging about the things that we wanted. Then I left. We asked, I told you this is a long story. It's fascinating, and I, I have so many questions, so keep going. It's ridiculous. It just, I know, right? It, um, but yeah, if you sleep and start snoring, no big deal. So yeah, left we act. No, I'm like, what happens next? Where'd you go next? I know, I know. I'm looking at the edge of my seat. This is crazy. Where's Waldo? No, but then I went, ended up getting an opportunity to go to environmental philanthropy. And this was at a critical time because having worked with all these community-based organizations and really trying to figure out the black box of philanthropy, like how do you get money? I thought I could learn and then help support organizations that were doing great work but of course had been underfunded to do so. So I was at the Cresky Foundation for several years leading a portfolio on climate resilience and equitable water systems, so basically making sure that we were figuring out ways to address climate-driven flooding, but doing it in a way where equity was centered as a part of that and supporting organizations from facility managers to community-based organizations doing water work. And then I left Cresky and started my own consulting practice because I got tired of working for folks. I loved it for that year and a half because I got a chance to work with so many different entities, really, you know, folks would just come to me and say, hey, I have this question. I'd love to help you answer it. And so I just worked with folks in Canada and Hawaii, and you know folks right here in the city of Detroit. It was amazing. All again, advancing equity and environmental justice. And then I got this call from this 202 number, which I thought was a prank call at first and They were like, well, yeah, Chief of Staff wants to talk to you, and I'm like, OK, who was calling me? Long story short, it was, yeah, it was, you know, someone from the White House and saying that they had a position that they thought I could fill. And so, uh, 8 months later, I, I landed at the White House and running our Office of Environmental Justice, well, running what was our Office of Environmental Justice, uh, in the Council on Environmental Quality and became again the first federal director of Environmental justice and, or chief, I'm sorry.

Chief Environmental justice officer, confusing positions. I know. But um, yeah, and so that was an amazing experience, which I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about and forced to resign in January of this year and took some time off to just reflect and deal with my trauma and got back on the saddle and now I'm at the University of Michigan, so. That is my long tail. And that doesn't include everything. But yeah, there's not. Yeah, no, that's awesome. And I think, you know, all of that is super inspiring for those listening who are maybe just starting their careers or even mid-career and looking for their own future path. I know I'm coaching people all the time who, it's like they're. Standing in the front of the headwaters of a river and they can't, you can't see where it's gonna go. You don't know what twists and turns and rapids and waterfalls are ahead of you, but you're trying to guess or trying to figure out where you're gonna be, and you may not have any idea. Your river looks different than my river, and maybe they cross paths here and there. So looking back on that, the many bends and changes in, in your path, what are some of the key factors that help you always move forward, keep going, keep advancing all the time, cause it's not like you're just changing and staying in the same spot. Yeah, I mean, you know, when I graduated from Northwestern in chemical engineering, I literally planned on doing chemical engineering for 30 years, then retiring and then starting my own environmental justice magazine. That was my plan. That's what I had written in my Franklin Planner, which is dating Me Again. I don't know what Franklin planners are, and that was the total opposite. But I would say, I mean, I looked for a job maybe one time. 

After that, I think jobs just started coming my way and it seemed to be like this natural progression that I wouldn't have even thought of that, you know, doors just start opening, which was amazing and I was super grateful. And regardless of whatever position that I've held, the one thing that I think has motivated me to keep going is when I look back to, again, the place where I grew up, Detroit, Michigan, there are still people in communities that are living in places that are not healthy, that are not safe, and that are not sustainable. And so what I've tried to do in whatever position and whatever power or privilege or whatever I've had is to try and make a difference in whatever way. And so I come from a family that if we didn't have somebody living in our house that needed help while I was growing up, that was rare. So I come from a family where we try and take care of people and take care of each other. So that's just the way I was raised and even in my professional life and personal life, I've tried to embody those same values and virtues, like how do I use this engineering degree, how do I use this doctorate? How do I use this experience or this position to make things better for people. And so until we actually hit this or create this world where everybody is healthy and safe and sustainable, that is what gets me up in the morning every day. Yeah, that's great. And then, so do you feel like, like some people listening to say, well, I've been trying to get doors to open and they're not opening. What do you think has been, of course, there's synergies and divine interventions and, and things like that, but there's something you're doing that is drawing people to you. I have no idea. That's the best answer possible. I am not, let's see, how does it, like, I don't market myself. Like I am straight introverted, right? Like I would prefer being in a room by myself, you know. Not talking to anybody, like I have to present as an extrovert in some places, so it's not like I have my pitch ready and you know, yes, you need me because of this. So I've never really been this person to like put myself out there and I really became OK with that, probably 20 years ago. But I think the thing that I would love for folks to, if it all take away and kind of what I tell my own daughters is that, you know, your work will speak for itself, your heart and passion will come through and what you do and how you do it. And not that that will always get you the job or the next opportunity because you do have to do some talking, you do have to let people know that you're there, particularly in a flooded market like we're in now. 

But I think your work and your reputation and how people regard you and respect you and how you treat people goes a long way because I, you know, there's been many an occasion where I don't remember where I met this person or this dude. And it's 10 or 15 years later and they come back to me and say, hey, I remember when you said this to me, or I remember when you encouraged me, or I have this opportunity because I know how you did your work and how you showed up in that situation. So you have to be really intentional and careful how you treat people. How you, you know, model kind of the person that not only you want to be, but you want people to treat you as well. And then of course you have to work hard. I mean, it's not like, I will tell you one thing, I'm not the smartest in the room, but I bust my butt. And when, when I come, I'm going to give you 120%. So, you know, kind of this whole notion which I see, and this is just my experience with certain generations is that, you know, they, they kind of think that they're owed something or the world like is supposed to come to you just because, and that's not the case. You still have to work hard, you still have to show up, you're not going to get a title, position or pay just because you're there or you graduated. So that hard work and respecting people, I think is super critical because it can come back to haunt you or it can come back to help you. Absolutely. All right. So right. Yes, yes, yes, all of that. And all right, you've got so much great stuff in your career history, but, you know, clearly there's one that stands out. And when you're appointed the federal chief Environmental justice Officer with the federal government, what was, how did you said you talked about getting the call, but when you actually walked into the office the first day, what, what was that like? What did that feel like actually performing the job? So I guess I, I, I say this all the time. 

I've never been a political person. Like watching the Talking Heads and you know, I appreciate history, but I don't know all of it. Like I just would not have, this was not in my dreams. Like for the White House. Let me just tell you that. I did not have a plan. Rarely do I have like this strategy to get where I'm going. That's just not me. That's some people, that's great. That's not me. So when this happened, well, first of all, I had to ask for permission because we were living in Michigan and now it required me to go back and forth to DC and my daughters were in high school and it was, it's a big deal for me to show up as a mom. Family comes first all the time. So they told me, Mom, it would be crazy for you not to take this position and they said, we'll take care of daddy. So I was like. So I had the permission, the blessing of my daughters. And after that, it was just, I mean, I remember clear as yesterday, kind of walking in and it was kind of unbelievable and surreal, right? Like this place that you know you've had TV shows, movies about, you know, like the East Wing and the West. I actually had access to now. I was like, Wait a minute. Oh my gosh. But then it was also kind of like the reality that. Boy, how do I say this? You think with power you can snap your fingers and make everything better, essentially, like you have the power to do these things that you didn't as a civilian, and sometimes it's just as hard in the White House that holds all this power and gravitas and so I learned that very quickly. And that the same politics that happen on the outside, they're just kind of elevated inside that house, but it was still like, it was unbelievable, it was surreal, and it was like, I am totally not going to waste this opportunity and do the best that I can to serve the people of this great country because I've been given this opportunity. So yeah, that's amazing. So then, what highlights, what were the projects you worked on? Well, the Biden-Harris team had a vision. President Biden and Vice President Harris, and their vision around environmental justice, you know, encompassed a couple of major initiatives. One was the Justice 40 initiative, and so for folks that might not know, basically we have these two huge bills, the Inflation Reduction Act, IRA for short, the bipartisan infrastructure Law. BIL or bill and they brought a, you know, a bunch of money, billions of dollars to go towards sustainable housing, clean water infrastructure, clean energy, environmental justice, climate change, all these different things, which was amazing. We had never had. This type of investment in history, right? 

And so part of the Justice 40 initiative was to make sure that those billions of dollars got to communities that we termed disadvantage, meaning they were over polluted areas, they were areas that were underinvested in, so economic distressed areas. And so one of the biggest parts of our role in my office, the Office of Environmental Justice, was to work with the Office of Management and Budget, OMB, and our Climate Policy Office, CPO, both in the Executive Office of the President, to make this Justice 40 initiative happen. And when you think about again the, the magnitude of moving money in a way that the federal government had never moved it before. It's literally like shifting the Titanic. And so you cannot imagine the amount of gosh, guidance, direction, culture change, definitions like things that needed to happen to make that justice 40 initiative reality. And long story short, you know, we exceeded the goal of the president, so we exceeded 40%. Of the benefits of those investments reaching those disadvantaged communities, we actually got to 71%. Of course, we didn't get a chance to say that to the general public because we got those numbers in early January, but again, giving credit to the hard work of all of our federal agency partners which were the ones that actually did the work to implement to our members of the executive office that supported again, creating the mechanisms to, to make this thing happen. And of course, to my amazing staff that, you know, did so much blood, sweat, and tears. So, the justice for the initiative was major. We had other pieces, the environmental justice scorecard, so the first time we had a federal scorecard for the government that talked about how agencies were advancing environmental justice. And that might not seem like a big deal, but it was because it was an opportunity for external folks to hold government accountable. 

And for us inside the government to kind of track how we're actually doing and if we're doing anything. Right, right. So yeah, I mean, I could, many initiatives, but long story short, you know, as I would tell my staff every day, our job was to literally make the impossible possible because we had a short amount of time, a little bit of money. And when I say money, not the billions of dollars, but the money to support the infrastructure to implement the Justice Party initiative, the EJ scorecard, the climate and economic justice screening tools, support the White House Environmental Justice Advisory Council, and all those things. So we really had to, we had a very mighty small team that I'm so thankful to, to this day. Yeah, and, uh, I realized Laura is building it up so I can ask you a really sad question later, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold off. I'm gonna get one positive thing in here before I ask about the beginning of the year, but when you're doing all that and you're pulling all these things together, you know, politics, it's, it's funny, they're everywhere, right? And you like I, I loved hearing you say that that that happens in an internal level, at a major external level, obviously, but you talked about all these wonderful things you did, your team. I know you, you're proud of what you did. It's an incredible accomplishment to be the first to do that thing. So when you left, I mean, I, what was that like for you? Before you tell me what, what, you know, I know there's some challenges. What's the positive you took away when you left? So let me clarify, I was forced to resign. Yes. Like all the other political appointees, and what I will say is that My staff worked up until the moment the doors closed. And so I think the amount of dedication.

The passion, the commitment, and the level of service that I saw from my team and others is something that I will never forget because we did a lot with a little. And so, to me, was it perfect? No. Was it, was it not without its challenges and oh yeah, no, um, did we not get yelled at in public meetings and say that we weren't doing enough fast enough? Yeah, but you know, I think I firmly believe when you have communities come to you and say, essentially, we see you, we see what you're doing. No, we don't agree with everything, but we, we're glad you're there. That was it for me. Yeah. I don't care about, I shouldn't say I don't care, but for me this work is not about, oh Jalonne, you did all this or you're this or I made friends with this person in the office and, I don't care about that. I have to come home to community. And that is who I'm accountable to and accountable to myself. So, to me that affirmation from our, you know, broader community and in the public meetings and the stakeholders that I met traveling across the country, again, that made me want to do the work more. It also made me realize that. I can't solve every problem, so it's very hard sometimes, but also that people saw that we were trying to do our best with what we had. Yeah, and your daughters did take care of your husband, that is, yeah, yeah. Yes, they did. They did a fabulous job. Yeah, I believe it. I believe it. And I doubt this is the end of this, this journey. I think it's pause, you know, this is somebody pulling a string, and then this is not the end for environmental justice or your involvement in this. I'm sure we'll see. I don't know. I'm getting old, Laura. I know. I don't know. Passion never dies. Yeah, I know you still definitely, yeah, yeah. We see plenty of activists go all the way, go hard all the way to the end. Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure. Well, yeah, so I mean, I don't know, I love like we talk about community interaction a lot on the show. I love that kind of thing and I love that. You know, you talk about being proud of the interaction that you got and like I said, you talked a little bit about challenges. It's not always perfect. And do you have major takeaways for people who are, who are nervous to engage with communities or who want, or you know, now especially, it's like what, what do we do in this, in the environment changed in January. It very much did. So what do we do now and what advice do you have for people trying to, you know, continue to engage with communities? 

Yeah, I mean, you know, your community and your definition of community, there's so many different definitions of community, so I just want to make that clear. If it is a professional community, if it's the community that you live in, is it's the community that you want to do research in, of course there's different strategies of engagement. But regardless of what you define as community, I think in the things that I've kind of learned and try and practice in my work, you know, it's just really letting go of your ego, uh, listening, and then really understanding what does that community care about. Because oftentimes, you know, you're, you know, if you're coming into the community, there's probably something you want, right? You want folks to get on board with something, you want them to support you for this, or you want them, you know, them to be a part of a study or, you know, something, right? And so, I think sometimes where I've seen folks make the mistake is that you come in with your agenda as the researcher or as the government person or as the whatever. An agenda where you think you know all the answers, you've got everything on lock and all that stuff, and that that will blow up in your face. And so, I think whatever community that you're trying to engage in some way and go into, again, letting go of that ego, listening and figuring out what people care about is something that I have used. As a lobbyist in one of my former lives, it's something that I've used as learning to re-engage with my community here in the city of Detroit and it's something that I've used working in the halls of the White House. Yeah, and being forced to resign, having that come be part of your career journey, even if you know it's coming, it's not an easy thing. It's not fun, it's difficult. You go home and what happens next? How do you, you know, pick yourself up and, and move forward? What's the next part of your path? How did you get to where you are now with Michigan? Yeah, I mean, I think what was interesting, so January, I think it was like the end of January, and that's when I officially had to like say peace out and turn in the laptop and all that stuff and the ID and you know, even after I left officially, left officially, I had staff still working for about a month after that. 

And so, I was still, you know, they were still calling me and, you know, there was correspondence and so again trying to support in whatever way I could my staff that was still there. So that was like a month, a month and a half in, so like mid-March. Then it was this thing of, you know, from January to March and April, I had community organizations and folks calling me because again. It was all these threats that turned into reality of funds that these organizations were promised, either being frozen, clawed back, whatever you want to call it, and folks are like, we need help, we need support, we need resources, what do I do? And so I was triaging for much of months, right? So January, February, March, April, and so I really didn't have a chance to uh I don't know, process the separation, and I think it didn't really hit me until probably August. When I thought I would just be able to like, Oh, OK, you know, that's down, let me go to the next thing. And I was just like, you know, and I was trying to just do all the things. I was trying to start my book. I was trying to, you know, publish a couple of journal articles. I was trying to figure out what my research was going to be and get my same clients back that I had in my consulting practice, and none of that was going smoothly. And I was trying to figure out like what is wrong with me? Like, do people not like me anymore? Like it was it was a really hard time because I was like, Oh my gosh. And then, you know, a really wise person, I guess put me aside and said, do you see what the world is going through right now? Yeah. There's a reason that you don't have clients because folks are scared to say the word equity or justice. They're getting penalized. You probably are not writing the best because you need to actually allow yourself to rest. 

And you know, just all these things that you don't think of when a transition is forced on you. Well, I'll say all the things that I didn't think of when a. No, I think that's fair. I think that's fair, yeah. And I was supposed to just be normal and just like, OK, on to the next. Well, yeah. It was difficult and I think, do I feel totally Rested? Probably not, but I was so anxious about what I needed to do next because we are not independently wealthy and I have one daughter in college and one that's about to go and it's just like I've always worked and had multiple jobs, so this was just not. this was not the norm for me. So, it was a rough transition, but I'm thankful that again, I had started some conversations with the University of Michigan before I actually went to the White House. That was actually my intention to have my practice and teach and research at UFM, but then the White House thing happened, so I did. I restarted, so I'm glad to have landed where I'm at and, you know, we'll hopefully make the best of it. Yeah, and I, I love the idea cause like so often we talk about careers and paths, and you just hit something on something that's really important to me. It's like the relationships you made at Michigan before you went to White House is why you are where you are now, and that's a huge deal, right? If people didn't like you, if you weren't, you know, you wouldn't be there. That's that, yeah, it'd be like, oh, you're doing something else. Oh, it's so bad. Oh jeez, you know, that would be it, you know, and. That's a wonderful thing that you have continued to build relationships and you're gonna keep doing that, and that's really cool to see, and it's not even a question. I just wanted to say that's awesome, that's all. Yeah, well, and I will say to you from your story, in when I coached with people who've been laid off, even if you know logically, I have learned the last couple of years going through several different transitions. 

Every time I want to just know logically, I'll be fine, it's cool. I know, I know why it happened, has nothing to do with me. It's cool, you know, but then I'm still, you still have to process it emotionally that you cannot not do that. You know, I've done this with a breakup, put it off. I traveled, great time, life is good, then finally landed somewhere and had to process it, you know, I've had to move another time. I've had other things happen, and I'm just like, no matter what, no matter how much I can tell myself, it's cool, it's good, this happened for a reason. I still have to process the emotions no matter what, and it's frustrating, but it is, and I think allowing ourselves the grace to do that is what we have to do. So I'm glad to see that you're on the other side of this. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I tell myself I am. Yeah. We'll see. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, so I mean thinking about it, you talk about your career and you've done a lot of, you know, people-centered work, you've done a lot of justice-centered leadership, and I think that's regardless of what we call terms, it's not like the issues or challenges have changed or gone away. It's just we're changing the terms that we're using to do those kinds of things. So, for our day to day now, what decisions should environmental professionals be making to kind of maintain cause like, you know, communities still need things, communities of all kinds, what however you define it like we talked about earlier. So, like what advice do you have for professionals who are trying to do to work with justice centered initiatives, be justice centered leaders. Yeah, I mean, so the other piece which I found, well, I shouldn't say I found it hilarious, but um I guess people feel like I have something to say, which is, which is cool. And so part of kind of my transition in January, I mean, I've always done a lot of public speaking, like I can't even count the number, but even starting in January after all that occurred, folks are reaching out and saying, what you want? What should we do? Or can you come talk to my board?

 Or can you speak with this group of funders because they don't know what to fund now. And so a lot of this, which I think is why I, I wasn't able to really process because I was really trying to support and encourage all these different other organizations. I've probably done 30 either speeches or what, you know, in the past 11 months. And part of my message has always been, I don't care. I mean, terminology is important, but for example, if you're a community-based organization, if you're an academic institution, and you know that you are under fire or under the microscope and something not good will happen because you say a certain term, then it doesn't, you know, common sense, don't say it. Keep you from doing the work in the way that embodies those same values and characteristics. So, I remember telling one person like I don't care if you call it ice cream making. That community and you're doing something in a way that embraces the principles of environmental justice, and the outcome is something that is gonna be beneficial to that community and advance their community well-being. Then I don't care what you call it; it's how you do the work. So that's what I've told everybody. It's like, this is not an excuse to backslide. It's not an excuse to like get out of doing what we know is right. Particularly the institutions that have the power and the privilege to do whatever they want, philanthropy. So I, there's no excuse. 100%, I think, yeah, and in the long run, probably changing the name, maybe that will be beneficial. 

They'll come up with different terms or different things, who knows? Yeah, but, but like you said, let's just keep doing the work and who cares what we call it, you know, same as it's been climate change, climate, sea rise, you know, global warming it's always it's changing, changing, changing. But we're still doing the work. So, let's move on to our segment called # Field Notes. It's a part of our show where we talk to our guests about their memorable moments doing the work in the field, whether those are scary, funny, awkward. We like to hear them because it's one of the things as environmental professionals, we all have in common is. You can send them to info@environmentalprofessionalsradio.com. And Jalonne, you mentioned something early in your career and climbing into An area that you may not have liked too much. So, I think, oh my gosh, I'm like, I've had so many experiences where I've climbed into something and didn't know what was gonna happen. I believe this was one of my first jobs that I got out of undergrad, so I moved from Michigan to Dallas, Texas, and I started with US Gypsum, uh, as an engineer, and for gypsum, you have like the wall board and all that stuff. We made the putty that you stick the wall bar, you know, that the wall board sticks on that in that in Dallas. And so I remember having to climb on the top of one of our silos because for some reason the material wasn't transferring, and I was scared out of my mind because I don't like heights. I had to go up there and literally, I think at that time, I mean, in most of the plants that I've worked in, I'm usually the only, I would say female, um, and most of the plants, yeah, usually, with the exception. of folks that are in the administration or secretary or whatever. So I remember my guys, like I said, literally my guys literally laughing at me because I was so scared on this silo. And so over time it just became second nature. And you know, it's so funny because that was probably, I don't know, 20 years ago, probably more than that. And some of my guys still tease me to this day. Uh, about that first time that I had to climb on that silo and I was scared out of my mind. Is it like you're shaking as you're going up? Is that what's happening? 

Well, I try not to look down, and the thing about it is I had these huge boots on, right, because we had to wear steel-toed boots, so they're not petite, uh, and the hard hat and the safety glasses and the gloves, and mind you, it's in Texas and it's hot outside. It's all that. Yeah. So, bees used to frequent the silos, like you would have for some reason, well, I guess it makes sense. They would build their hive, like, you know, either in the ladder. So, it was all those things going on. Oh, that's funny. But it was very memorable, and I mean, got over my fear of heights very quickly. And then what exactly where you supposed to do when you got up there? Just to make sure that, again, we had, there would be times where the flow of the material, stuff would get stuck. And so, if we weren't seeing it downstairs in the inside, something was happening. I'd have to have one of my maintenance guys come up with me. We'd have to check the flow, check the quality of the material, you know, check the pressure, all those different things. So, it was fun. It was really; it was really fun. I loved it. I loved it. It was great. All right, well, we're getting close to the end of our time. So, what's in store for you? You're working at the university. You've mentioned, you mentioned a book in your own consulting. Are you just taking some time to reflect? Are you already ready to hit the ground running? I didn't have any time to reflect, which is hilarious. Um, I, I started at the university, I think the end of August. I think it was the end of August, so I still have my consulting practice, so I have just maybe one or two projects again, which is great, but really, I've been focused over the last couple of months and kind of learning the institution of the University of Michigan in a different way.

I mean, I was a doctoral student before and that's totally different now as a tenure track professor, so just Learning the processes, the ins and outs. I have a couple of students working for me as research assistants, which has been amazing. I'm defining my areas of research and creating 3 new classes that I'm going to teach next fall. So still doing a lot of speaking and trying to write when I can, so it's very full, but you know, I'm, I'm grateful and excited. Uh, no, but I, I, I don't want to totally end there yet. I want to know we're not ready for you to go. I know, I'm not ready for you to go. I do want to know. Like, what is downtime like for you? What do you do for fun? I will tell you what brings me joy. Uh, well, there's a couple of things. Always good food, whether I'm cooking it or going to get it. Most of the time I'm cooking because I'm pretty conservative. Um, I love Zumba. Um, yeah, no way. Oh yeah, I used to, I, I trained, I'm a Zumba instructor technically, but I have not been able to use that because I travel. That's a first for us on the show. Yeah, I was about to say, yeah, one of my, uh, one of my best friends is going to be thrilled to hear this. So it is like, it's amazing. It's my people and I and I miss it for some reason. I always seem to have a meeting during Zumba, but anyway, Zumba. And then the third thing, I'm a big sports mom. And so I shared, I have two daughters, one is a high school senior and she's a runner, so cross country and track are her thing. Um, then I have an older daughter who's a sophomore in college in upstate New York, and just yesterday, they just won their first NCAA Division 3 women's volleyball. Championship, the first round. So they're playing again tonight. So congratulations. That brings me so much joy. 

That is kind of my downtime because the only time I have downtime is when I'm focused on something that is not related to work or anything that requires deep. Thought, and I just, I'm one of those moms that I will be in the audience screaming, holding signs, probably sweating and burning more calories than the players. So that brings me joy. Awesome, that's great. And uh hopefully there aren't any refs out there that, that have heard an earful from you. So, uh, that's always, that's good. All right, so good, that's good. But we are running out of time. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about before we let you go? No, I this is nice. I appreciated the conversation. I don't want to think too hard about it, and I think I've ran my mouth enough, so thank you. Well, thank you for joining us. It was really fun and uh I'm making a prediction. You'll be back doing some other, not that the university. My mom is a yer and so she also went to, to Michigan. So, love that. But I, I think there's a lot of something in store for you, yeah, even bigger than the White House. It's predicting. I don't like my mom, Laura. She, you know, she was like, I saw you in the White House, you know, 15 years ago. I was like, OK, mom, but. I'm teaming up with your mom here. I know they are 99.9% of the time. Moms are right. I have learned that. So tell your daughters that too. Make sure they listen, you. No, they're good girls. Really, I'm, I'm so blessed and wonderful, so. That's great. That's great. OK, so last question, where can people get in touch with you if they'd like to reach out? Sure, so you can shoot me an email at J A L O N N E at U M I C H.edu or on LinkedIn. Yeah, those are the best places. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. This was great. Yeah, thank you all. Have a good holiday. You too!

That's our show. Thank you, Jalonne for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. See you everybody. Bye!