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Navigating the Interpersonal Dynamics of Attachment with Dr. Jack Hinman
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Attachment Styles in Behavioral Health
Speaker 1Hello folks , welcome back to Mental Health Matters . On WPBM 1037 , the voice of Asheville Independent commercial-free radio , I'm Todd Weatherly , your host therapeutic consultant . Behavioral health expert . With me today is Dr Jack Hinman . Jack is the founding executive director of Engage Transitions , a therapeutic environment there in Cedar City , utah . Engage's engages purposes to provide therapeutic support for young adults struggling with their mental health that is often limiting their ability to be independent .
Speaker 1Jack is a licensed clinical psychologist , passionate clinician and leader in helping young adults cross that bridge into healthy and engaging independence . His unique blend of clinical and administrative experience has provided Jack a comprehensive perspective on the therapeutic journey . He believes through the power of connection we thrive . Jack's clinical foundations are driven in attachment theory and dialectical behavioral therapy , otherwise known as DBT . Jack has also served on the board of directors for the National Association of Therapeutic Programs and Schools , as well as having a private practice working primarily with young students from the local community . Jack loves living in the outdoor rich area of Cedar City with his wife of 23 years and their two teenage children . Jack is an avid mountain biker and a coach for his son's high school mountain bike team . Jack , you know , for everybody out there that might be maybe not quite as engaged as you and I might be around this topic . First thing and we'll go somewhere with this , but first thing let's define attachment .
Speaker 2Attachment was traditionally seen as like early development , younger children or people that , hey , maybe were adopted and had really early relational trauma . That was kind of where the the box that we're kind of operating from and but now we're kind of moving from , like , like we're moving from that and seeing it as a lot more than that's the case . And so attachment is that your early formative years , um , and how that development , those experiences shape and form your , like , your neurodevelopment , the way it shapes your attachment , your attachment system . And so all of us have attachment styles and our early development affects that , our attachment styles . And there's , there's , um , there's typically four attachment styles . So the one that we all want to want to show up more and the one that we want to be more in the place of is secure attachment , stable , consistent , predictable homes , stable attachment figures .
Speaker 2And then you have what we call insecure attachment but people label as preoccupied attachment . And so those people have they have , they have low avoidance in relationships but a high anxiety in relationships . And so a person who's got preoccupied attachment when they when they get , when they get stressed out or anxious about relationships , they lean into relationships . So when preoccupied , so think about you , they're preoccupied about relationships . So they're typically really concerned about relationships , concerned about those things . And then you have the other . You have avoidant , which is high avoidance and low anxiety . That's on the pole , the polar on high avoidance and high anxiety when it comes relationships . So they're very , very detached from relationships . They get overwhelmed by intimacy in relationships and um and so when they get stressed out and stressed out in relationships , they lean back . And as we and we talk about these different attachment styles , there's some bit of like superpowers or some strengths within each attachment style that show can show up very well in work and we'll kind of we can talk a little bit about that down the road . And then you have disorganized type , which is a combination of you're preoccupied and avoidant , and so the stress they feel is that where they feel very fearful about abandonment in relationships . And so when they feel like one's going to fill up , they feel abandonment or feel like one's going to leave them , they lean into relationships . And then , when they start leaning into relationships , they get super anxious about being too dependent on the relationships . So they pull back In the world that you and I are in , typically clients that are in long-term care , who need like residential treatment who and maybe go to multiple settings , do the continuing care maybe in treatment for three to four years typically fall into disorganized category and um .
Speaker 2And so over the years um , the clients I've worked with was we give them an attachment test and a high percentage fall into the disorganized category that are in treatment . And then I've also met with groups of clinicians and it's quite fascinating what are the typical attachment styles showing up with people who are in the working profession ? But you see a lot of people who tend to want to work in the helping profession , who preoccupied attached people , because they really lean into relationships , they get a lot of their needs from relationships and those things and so it's interesting to kind of play that . And so I think the last time I looked into- .
Speaker 1You have to worry about enmeshment in their work , I'm sure as well . Oh yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , I'm going to take a little side note about therapy , but it's really fascinating to look at outcomes of therapy based on the attachment style of the therapist , and some of the research I've looked at is that sometimes the therapist's attachment style has a larger impact on the outcome than the client's attachment style , and so our attachment style is the foundation of how we show up and work .
Speaker 1Wow .
Speaker 2Yeah , so it's really important to know what is your operating system . It's our overall operating system , the same way that's on this computer that we're using today , right now on our phone , and it really operates . The whole phone , operates the whole computer , and now cars have operating systems , and so you can even maybe take it a step further .
Speaker 1Your refrigerator has an operating system these days . Yeah , yeah , if it's not working right .
Speaker 2Your eggs and your milk is going to spoil in that fridge pretty quickly . And , yeah , cars , and you can take it one step further is that it's even like it's . It's even like our relational operating system . So it's our operating system . It comes the way we regulate our emotions . It's our operating system , way that we conceptualize ourself and the way we see others . It's also the operating system in the way we the kind of stress we feel in relationships , and then how do we respond to that stress ?
Speaker 2So you think about work . It creates emotion , there's relationships , and so you talked about uncertainty . And if you , when you think about attachment and people who have attachment distress and struggle with have attachment security , uncertainty is can be one of the number one triggers for them . And so then you talk about the world that you and I work in . Is that we're doing ? We're we're supporting people that are very uncertain . And and you , if you talk to like a testing psychologist or anybody like I , think the thing is that the thing that , like we , we think we're good at predicting behavior , but we're actually the worst at predicting behavior because our clients are very uncertain , and the thing about attachment , it's a great window into understanding yourself and it gives you the insight in how you show up and work in relationships so in a quad style assessment , you know , you see this amorphous blob that you got a little , you know a little bit of territory in the disorganized , a little territory in the preoccupied , a little territory stable .
Speaker 1Ideally you want to have a lot in the stable um and and so that profile gives you your profile . You've got a little bit of all of them , right .
Speaker 2Yeah , and you show and then like , yeah , if you want to , if you want to learn more about your own personal attachment , there's a great organization and website called the attachment project . Yeah , that's cool , yeah , yeah , it's cool . And so it gives you that little quarter that you're talking about where like and can . Even even if you're um , your primary , uh , attachment figures are no longer with us anymore . Like your parent , like your mom and your dad , you can still get an idea of kind of how you fall into romantic relationships , your parents and those things . And just even taking that test actually is pretty , um , informative , just the way you just get the answer . His questions will bring up a lot of information about yourself and so , yeah , it's like we show up differently in different relationships and different situations can trigger that attachment and security in those things . Definitely . And you think about work . It's very relational . Especially the work we work in is extremely relational .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , well , and you know , I I think about looking through this lens , uh , and as it relates to identity , um , and you know , if you're talking about , as you say , many of the individuals that that end up in long-term treatment or care , those kinds of things have a have a disorganized profile , disorganized attachment profile . So what you're trying to do is is cause them to shift that a bit .
Speaker 1You're moving the needle right , and and and through that re like . That's a whole new identity . It's a whole different way of of being in the world . Um , um , for a person who not only has this attachment style but also has probably forged an identity around some of the the challenges of their condition . You know they they're , you know they suffer from depression or anxiety . They got this profile of a sick person in their mind and they've identified with it . Um and like , what is the ? In chemistry ? There's this , uh , it's one of my favorite ones .
Speaker 1I use it my notes all the time , but it means this yields something else and it's a it's a little arrow , um , and in some , in some formations , you've got you've got chemicals that yield each other , so one will , it'll yield that way and it'll yield the other way , and the sign is a is a half arrow on top and a half arrow on bottom .
Speaker 1That's one of my favorite symbols , but I could see that symbol existing between attachment and identity , um , and that , like , if you're looking through this window , this lens of your attachment , style and and everything that comes up as a result of that , you start to go straight towards your identity .
Speaker 1It's like , if you , if I , if I question the way that I attach to things , not just people like there's ways I orient all kinds of stuff in the world that are hints at this window , this lens that we're talking about , and as opposed to , if you start to change , that you walk into a place and suddenly you've adjusted your view through this lens and thusly your identity starts to change and , like , your environment starts to really revolve , the way that you interact with the world really draws the world in in a particular way , the way you focus on it , the who you relate to , etc . Etc . When you see this shift and the people and the young adults that you're working , working with , like , what are the first signs that you start to see in a person who's making this , who's moving this needles , look through this lens , done the work and is starting to make this shift ? What is it ? And maybe you see it in your clinicians too . I don't know , but like what is it that you see ?
Speaker 2Yeah , no , this is a really fascinating conversation because , like one of my closest friends and colleague , him and I have a little bit of a debate about this all the time , about what's , how do you define true change ? Can you change your attachment style , and we and we have this really dynamic conversation around it and and he can be like Eric Fawson with elements he would be another good like conversation . Let's call him . Let's get him in here .
Speaker 1Yeah , we'll get us on there .
Speaker 2We'll debate it , go back and forth . I mean , we'll hash it on the mountain bike on the climbs at least We'll be happy because we can't talk , and we'll conceptualize our clients this way , conceptualize ourselves this way . And so no to me , when it comes to deep , deep work , true internal change , you're actually shifting the attachment system . That's what's happening . And so I say a system . We can also say the word identity , because your identity is kind of like your operating system Right , it's just another way to kind of think about it . And so so your attachment system , your attachment style , really impacts the way you regulate yourself , emotional regulation , and so having a lot of emotional dysregulation affects identity development .
Exploring Identity and Attachment Styles
Speaker 2When your emotions are very chaotic , it's hard to kind of like to shape a consistent , stable identity , because the way you feel about something tells you about how you think about something , and then how you think about something affects your identity .
Speaker 1Well , it's like well , it's going to tell you how to act about something , right ? Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2If you're all , if you're , if you're very disorganized and I love you one minute , I hate you one minute I'm into your country's . Next minute I'm into like punk . I mean . I mean it's okay to like be all over the place and there's a bit of like normal development for young people to be in this disarray . But hopefully over time , with with hopefully , they have starting to crystallize their identity as they're becoming more regulated .
Speaker 2So also , too , how you see yourself , your self-esteem , your self-concept also directly relates to your identity . So if you're very dysregulated , you're very insecure . You're going to be insecure with yourself . So you're going to be unsure of yourself , which means you're going to be unsure of your identity . And so it's like the identity is like the top of the pyramid . But then you've got these foundation pieces that create that identity . And if it's really really rocky and not consistent , you're going to be all over the map . And then also your identity , the way you relate to people , also creates your identity . So if you've got chaotic relationships , because you think about it , how do you figure out who you are ? We figure out who . The reflection of other people and the connection with other people , like what you see .
Speaker 2Intimacy into me , what you see , exactly , yeah , yeah , exactly . I love that , and so some of my relationships are chaotic . It's going to be , it's going to , I don't know , I don't know what is upside or upside down with me , what I like , what kind of people I like , and so so that that foundation , just those building blocks , up to the peak of our identity yeah yeah , I'm , I'm really interested in this , this debate .
Speaker 1You've got going on the mountain bikes . I'm surprised we haven't rid together yet .
Speaker 2Um but um I know , I know you know and you ride any bikes like I will give you like maybe , maybe it's maybe my resistance riding with you . Are you an e-bike or your regular , like old school bike ?
Speaker 1I'm I I old schooled for , you know , 40 years . I'm old enough that I can . I can say , yes , I like to carry myself around on a bit of with a bit of assistance . So I just let people set the pace and I don't wear myself out by the end of the top .
Speaker 2You can ride longer .
Speaker 1Yeah , well , you know you get a lot longer ride out of it too . But this , this argument that you're having on the uphill , that's , that's something , and , um , I'll say this I don't know if I I don't know if I'm going to confirm or did , I don't know if I would confirm an argument one way or the other about this whole thing in in the , in this , in this one interview , you know , we only got we only got about 30 minutes or 40 minutes that we took to talk about . We're probably not going to resolve the issue today , but I can say that any time that I've , without maybe necessarily knowing it . But look through this lens of attachment , um , and there's a couple of exercises that I did for a while that were that they come up for me as I think about this , and it's in practicing them or looking through this lens , I I was disorienting . You know , it was like I was making some shift about the way that I oriented myself , not just to people , but to everything in my world , including the assumptions and statements and beliefs I had about myself .
Speaker 1Well , I'm this kind of person , right ? It's like , is that so ? Are you that person ? That ? Is that really the truest expression of who you are , or is there more to it ? Or are you maintaining something that you're clinging to ? Where did it come from in the first place ?
Speaker 1And you're asking kind of these , these deep level questions , and if you start to , if you start to like , pull that card that makes the deck fall , it's disorienting . You're like , holy crap , my whole world has to now like reorient in some way . Um , and I , I don't even know where I stand right now . I'm just gonna have to stand still for a minute and let it all fall , let it all fall back into place and see what comes up .
Speaker 1Like you know I , you know , is it is , is change of your , your attachment style , possible ? I , I don't know . Um , I I want to say yes , but , and at the same time and I know that shift like shifts in it , are possible but you can shift the dial on something that doesn't make the dial different , that doesn't make the mechanism that you're , that you're , you know adjusting different . You know you still , I still fit within the context of the body that I walk around in right , and the face that I that comes out to the world and the people that I relate to . So those I mean one . Any shift that you make , whether we can answer that question or not , is very challenging , because if you're talking about a chaotic person , they're used to like this kind of environment and then they shift . It's like we're used to like this kind of environment and then they shift .
Speaker 2It's like we're gonna , we're gonna stabilize this . So I , you know , as you say , there's a version of us that lives in each one of the styles . Yeah , um , yeah , yeah , I , yeah , I , I think where , where ? Um , eric fossi land is that ? I think we we kind of go back and forth on this a little bit , I think to really just completely change your attached to style .
Speaker 2I don't think it's going to happen during your whole development and your whole life and but I think the a , how much you're in that quadrant of of of preoccupied or disorganized , can shift . You can't get a little bit more closer to the middle of being secure and and then maybe , maybe with like and then maybe with ? For example , if you're in a relationship with secure people , you may be more likely to show up more secure with secure people . If you're in a relationship with a preoccupied person , you might show up more preoccupied , so you're more likely to show up secure , preoccupied , so you might be more so if you , you're more likely to show up or avoid it if that's the counterbalance right .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , yeah and and so so back to your question too is like , how does that process look like ? Where I think the thing is that you , I think just like first being aware of your , of your patterns , your style , and and so I think that's the work , because I think the thing is that when you're , when you're , when you're preoccupied , disorganized or avoidant , you really don't know what secure looks like . You really don't like you might have an idea , but you're just , you're operating the way you , when you show up preoccupied or disorganized or avoidant , that's just like , that's just normal to you and that's how normal related related to function . So the key is understanding , like your style , and then the big part of the process , too , is understanding what is the how does secure show up in relationships ?
Speaker 2Yeah and yeah , and I always use the um , the text , the uh texting uh example for this a lot where . So when you text somebody like , say , you text like your spouse or a girlfriend or boyfriend or a close friend and you don't hear from them for hours a preoccupied , preoccupied person they can put them in a spiral like , oh my gosh , what did I do wrong ? Did I piss them off ? Or you can go down the jealousy road .
Speaker 1Oh , they must be cheating on me , They'll come out right .
Speaker 2Yeah , and they go down that road really quickly and that person on the other end could just be busy at work , or their phone could have died , or they're just busy . You're not the most important thing to them right now , and so so they're . And so the thing is like they're in their , their anxiety about that response turns them into the tailspin , and they can , like they . What they'll do is they'll start me blowing up the other person's phone or what's going on and start accusing them of things as well too , and so . So the key is is talking okay , so when you send a text , you feel that anxiety . What ? What would a secure person do ?
Speaker 2So the key key is like so you start like identifying the feelings around the . You identify the feelings of preoccupied or avoided or disorganized , and you help them regulate that . So you're teaching regulation skills . As they're feeling that style , then you're also teaching them about how to respond securely . So the things that happen , the way to kind of shift attachment is emotional . Regulation is actually showing up securely and actually being in relationships with secure people . So that's the recipe to help you move more in that middle quadrant .
Speaker 1Yeah , well , and you're . I mean , it kind of reminds me of epigenetics . It's kind of like you know , you've got tons of genetic code but you've got a picker that says you know this color eyes and this color hair and this color skin and everything else In this model , like you know , if we're looking at it , and models only do a certain kind of job , but like there's , if we're looking at it , and and models only do certain kind of job , but like there's a version of you that is that is stable , and there's a version of you that is preoccupied , and there's a version of you that's avoidant and there's a . You know , like you've , you've got a version of you that it can exist at at any end of this maybe it's not a spectrum , or you know , in at any any for any corner of the quadrants , right , um and in order , if you've all , if all you've ever experienced is , say , preoccupied , or all you've ever experienced is is chaotic , then you , in order to be able to embrace anything that looks like the other styles , you've got to know what it looks like . So you know you're giving them and you know what we know is is a is a stable .
Speaker 1Attachment style causes a person to be able to do a lot more things . They can hold jobs and they can have stable relationships and they can manage a budget and do all kinds of things because they're not in this chaotic relational matrix with the things in their life and that's not just people , but their money and their car and their everything else Like it really shows up in all these places . And if they have a , if they have a version that they can like , okay , this is what I love this , this question . It's like what does that look like ? You know well , a stable would look like this and and I would behave this way and I would show up to work this way and I would drive this way , you know .
Speaker 1And they start creating this version of themselves that lives in a stable , attachment style , and the identity on the other side of that is going to look different . They're going to be the same person , but their identity is going to look different to the rest of the world and the people who show up in their lives are going to shift . I mean , it's very exciting work to do , I think , honestly , for yourself and to help other people with , but it's also and I tell people all the time if , in looking at this kind of work , what you come up with as a feeling is not terrified , you probably aren't paying attention . I think that terrified is an appropriate response to doing this kind of work yeah , because it's .
Speaker 1It's not for the faint of heart . It's very difficult and you know the people that you're working with are very brave to go do it and the way , and what terrifies you about that work is your attachment style . That's , that's right which is so true I'll get it and so the
Understanding Attachment Styles in Therapy
Speaker 1way .
Speaker 2so , for example , like , because what we're talking about is really deep , deep work , deep connection , deep emotional work , and and alan shore , who is a um , as a , like a researcher from , uh , I think , university , california , I mean there's tons of research on this stuff and he talks about the right brain . Connecting with the right brain is what's really deep therapy . That's deep therapy , right , that's deep connection . And so so you talk about a person who's avoidant and you're like saying like you're , like you're not connected with your clients on a deep level . That could be , that could be terrifying for an avoidant person .
Speaker 2Um , and then , but then with a preoccupied person preoccupied person it can be flooding , they can get flooded by it , they can get like they can get so wrapped up into the other person to have poor boundaries , and then they then they get dysregulated by the other person's emotions and then that's frightening . And so that so secure , so secure clinician , secure therapist can connect deeply but don't lose a sense of self , they don't get flooded by the other person's emotions in session , they don't lose sight of like , like they don't , they don't start coming securely attached . Therapists also provide the most authentic real empathy because it's really really providing connection on the level of that person and not too much reflecting yourself into the process that a preoccupied person would , and so yeah , it's , it's , it's yeah it's interesting how the fear of this really hard work and how you experience it is directly related to your attachment yeah , well , um , you know , I I have your , I have uh engaged transition sticker on my laptop .
Speaker 1You should know oh cool you know , connection is the connection , is the intervention and the solution . You know the outcome , yeah , the outcome , yeah , and it's like , like , like your attachment , your attachment style is the key and the door .
Speaker 2You know what I mean and and and , when we're in this space , is that , like I didn't . I didn't choose my parents , I didn't choose how . I came into this world Right , and some of us have maybe were lucky , got in . This happened . We just grabbed the , we got lucky and got into a secure home environment . We were maybe in a secure , like social , like social , economic setting . I wasn't during wartime or I was .
Speaker 2I happened to be lucky to be born in a in a stable economic country , and I mean all those pieces , I mean all these things shape attachment . They really do , yeah , and so , um , and so I didn't choose my attachment and it's and so I really try to frame it as like this is not a pathological label , this is not like um , and it's more about like , okay , this is , this is like your system that you were kind of born with and so understanding your system and and how to respond to it , and so , yeah , so I think the thing is it's like I really try to frame it that way , so , so people don't feel like , oh , I'm , I'm , oh , I'm disorganized , I'm hopeless and right , yeah and um , it's hard work and it's long work and you're going to be working your whole life , you're going to be working whole life to man to , to , to manage where disorganized attachment has less disruption on your life .
Speaker 1It's something you're going to be doing your whole life well , and I think that you're also talking about a person if they've , if they've lived , let's say , chaotic for a lot of their lives and they begin to acquire skills , that that that move them more towards stable . But they have both ends of this spectrum to draw from . They've lived both ways . You know , if I , if I'm a person and I've got a , you know I came out . If I came out stable , let's say that I am , let's say that I am . If I came out stable , I'm not saying that I am . Let's say that I am . If I came out stable , I don't know what . I'm not trying to go towards chaotic . I'm probably not trying to go towards either of the others .
Speaker 1Even though I have aspects of it that are available to me , it's not something I'm going to gravitate towards . This person who's been in a chaotic place but is trying to move towards stable Chaotic always exists . It's always there . They don't necessarily always behave that way because they're learning how to do something different , but it's always there and part of their repertoire , which means for the rest of your life . You have to actively choose which of these styles I'm going to express , and that I mean .
Speaker 1I think especially in the beginning , it can be very exhausting , you know what I mean Like it's just emotionally exhausting , where you're always choosing and I mean I remember doing early exercises and like just thought management , like inner dialogue management and word management . It's like what am I saying to myself and how am I saying it to myself and why am I saying it that way ? And are there , are there negatives ? Am I deprecating myself ? Am I ? You know where all these sources of these words come from and what do they mean to me ? And what you know ? It was a . It was a practice that I started and at first , like I had to really just do it because I hated it and then I could not do it and then it was just part of the background , it was just part of what Routine , part of the routine .
Speaker 2Yeah , think about what was happening to your brain , how you were rewiring your brain . Yeah , literally , you were rewiring your brain and yeah , literally , you were rewriting your brain . And I kind of almost think about like trying to learn how to play an instrument for the first time , how , how emotionally taxing that is . Like try to like focus on where your fingers are on the on the guitar , on the on the keys and and the beat , and it's like it's exhausting . You're yeah , you're building those deep , deep emotional tracks and it is really exhausting and it's something , it's a labor that it is your whole life and it does get easier . It's like it does get easier and so hopefully , you'll show up more frequently in the secure category , less frequently the the other categories , and so making those choices is a lot easier in the first place , right , yeah , yeah and and so and it's also another part a big part of that , too , is being like the way your brain can heal or shift .
Speaker 2We're talking about healer . Shifting is being in , um , being in stable relationships . That's probably going to be the most way to shift your brain . The quickest , too , is being in stable , consistent relationships with people .
Speaker 1Anchors , yeah well , man , I I think we're just gonna . I'm gonna reach out to alan shore , I'm gonna get you , we'll get a couple other guys in here . We're just going to . I'm going to reach out to Alan Shore , I'm going to get you , we'll get a couple other guys in here . We're going to have a big group up .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , I think it'd be fun to get Eric in here .
Speaker 1Oh yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , eric Foss and I with Elements , and yeah , we , we we talk attachment , all the time , yeah , and we talk , we see it through our , through ourselves and our relationships , our clients , and so another thing , too , I'm real excited about is that I stumbled upon a podcast with Alan Shore and Uberman . You know the Uberman Lab . Yeah , love that guy . He's a neurologist and so he interviews Alan Shore and they get into a lot of conversation , which is really awesome , and uberman and him talk about what is good therapy and like what does the good therapy look like ? And I I haven't heard anybody explain or discuss it in such a clear way that I've been like texting this podcast , a lot of different people and and and like our , our clinicians here are listening to it we're talking about it Share it with me when you get a chance .
Speaker 2That'd be great . Yeah , I totally will . Yeah , I will , I will . So it's like as soon as we disconnect from here , I'll share with you .
Speaker 1Yeah Well , jack . Dr Jack Hinman , thank you so much for joining us today . This has been Mental Health Matters on WPBM 1037 , the voice of Ashland Todd Weatherly , your host , and look forward to seeing you next time . Take care .
Speaker 2Thanks , Todd .
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Finding Home in Legal Power
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