Episode 8 - Unlock(ed) with Adriana Roche (CPO at Mural)

March 09, 2021 Adriana Roche Season 1 Episode 8
Episode 8 - Unlock(ed) with Adriana Roche (CPO at Mural)
Introduction Adriana Roche
Being Human centred in HR
Being CP at Mural, Why?
Inspirations in her profession
About a Purpose match
About the Ideal Mural employee
About preparing for the Future
About the Future of education
UNLOCK(ED) Question
About the Talent-Sprint
Episode 8 - Unlock(ed) with Adriana Roche (CPO at Mural)
Mar 09, 2021 Season 1 Episode 8
Adriana Roche

In this episode, we welcomed ADRIANA ROCHE, Mural's Chief People Officer.

Together we explored her passion for bringing back a human perspective to Human Resources, how peers inspire her the most in times of crises, the type of professionals Mural is looking for, and how to raise her children future-proof.

Our final Unlock(ed) question to her was:
What is that one single HR question you desire to see unlocked?

If you want to check-out Adriana or MURAL:

For more information about the Talent-Sprint please visit

This podcast is a Talent-Sprint production, a collaboration by Sabrina Goerlich, Jeroen Frumau and Emmanuelle Nechifor © 2021

Support the show (https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=VBA7JXJJGN2PS)

The Talent-Sprint
Attract and recruit talent, retain them longer by doing it differently

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

In this episode, we welcomed ADRIANA ROCHE, Mural's Chief People Officer.

Together we explored her passion for bringing back a human perspective to Human Resources, how peers inspire her the most in times of crises, the type of professionals Mural is looking for, and how to raise her children future-proof.

Our final Unlock(ed) question to her was:
What is that one single HR question you desire to see unlocked?

If you want to check-out Adriana or MURAL:

For more information about the Talent-Sprint please visit

This podcast is a Talent-Sprint production, a collaboration by Sabrina Goerlich, Jeroen Frumau and Emmanuelle Nechifor © 2021

Support the show (https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=VBA7JXJJGN2PS)

The Talent-Sprint
Attract and recruit talent, retain them longer by doing it differently

[00:02:40] Jeroen Frumau:
Well, Adriana, thank you very much for joining us on the talent sprint podcast. We call it unlocked because we like to unlock and discover the perspectives of different people. As well as professionals in the world that are actually seeking talent attracting talent for their organizations, but also having a perspective on where human resources management in the broader perspective, is going in this time of volatility, concerns, insecurities, etc.

I think it's best that you introduce yourself a little bit and how you ultimately ended up at the organization where you are so. Can you tell our audience a little bit about your past before we go into the future?

[00:03:24] Adriana Roche:
  Sure, sure. Happy to and thank you for having me over. I'm excited to talk about these things, especially right now, where I feel it's a little bit of an industrial revolution per se. And in the world of HR is, is trying to adapt and evolve with it. But a little bit about myself. I was born in Venezuela and then as the country started getting a little politically unstable, we decided to leave and we came to the United States. So I've been here in the United States since 95. And between being born in Venezuela, living here and having a grandfather that's French, I've really embraced this idea that I don't belong to one place in particular, but that I really.

[00:04:06] Like to be a citizen of the world, which is one of the reasons why I ended up choosing mural as a place where I wanted to work. But I started my life working in finance and I realized that that was not what I wanted to do. Just being on a spreadsheet with numbers and trying to make money was not the thing that was really fulfilling and a driver.

[00:04:25] And that was, as I was working there, I started discovering the world of human resources and what it could be. In my head, I had it that it was payroll and compliance and all these things that I never really thought I wanted to do, but then I started getting more exposure to organizational design and development and training. And that to me was just very exciting. 

[00:04:45] So then I went and got a masters in, in organizational development and that just propelled me into the world of HR. And the areas that I really loved today. And I started working in tech and have been working in tech for almost 11 years, starting with the big guys of Google and then Salesforce, but then found that I really love that startup phase when you're really getting your hands dirty and building. And I got my first taste of that at Dropbox. And then I went to another smaller company called segment that just recently got acquired by Twilio. And now I'm at Mural. 

[00:05:17] And the way in which I ended up at Mural was that while I was at my last role, it was right as the pandemic was hitting in one of the things that my team had to struggle with or help the company with was trying to help us transitioned to a different way of working. We were the type of company that was very much about working from the same office. We're in our whiteboards, physically scribbling. And we have to send everybody home from one day to the next, and we have to figure out how to help people and they can how much they miss their friends, but also how much they missed their whiteboard.

[00:05:51] And at the same time I have this really cool company, that's trying to convince me to move over. Who is really just trying to change the way in which people work? And a light bulb just went off or I said, well, I can either have my company transition or I can help thousands of companies transition to this new way of working.

[00:06:09] So the mission of Mural really, really got me excited. And then of course it was in that right stage where you were trying to build something new and it's a very global company, which just. Made me feel like I belonged. So here we are, I'm trying to lead the people team at Mural, which is you know, very fast-growing company. So it's a fun challenge. 

[00:06:30] Jeroen Frumau:
 Nice to hear also the perspective of taking the global citizenship almost as an, as a value and that you have embraced and then choosing a company that is taking that almost as a value proposition as well. How to support that global collaboration. You said you started in the tech world and you're still in the tech world. In that sense, what makes the tech world so interesting for today's human resources, professionals like yourself, because there's, there's also a different world where human resources management is needed, but what attracts you to the tech world so much? 

[00:07:09] Adriana Roche:
 You know, it's a couple of things, I think. Tech has become a very hot industry and there's a ton of tech companies. So the competition for talent is immense and the tried and true ways of thinking about talent, command and control or efficiencies or operations that no longer apply. Yields to the new generation or, or, you know, the people that you're trying to work with. And this applies to other industries as well. It's not just tech, but it's very, very acute in the tech world. But what is beautiful about tech is that the type of people that are attracted to this work are folks who are very into disrupting the industry, trying out things experimenting and just kind of being agile. You know, maybe if it doesn't work out that's okay.

[00:08:03] So you have a combination of a world that's trying to shift to a new paradigm with an industry that's very open to just trying things out and just figure it out. And it's just a beautiful place to be in tech because you're just really at the forefront of trying to move. 

[00:08:20] Jeroen Frumau:
 The IT world is very progressive and disruptive and. I also sometimes hear statements that the human resources world is very conservative. And does things already for the last 30 years in the same way, only enabled by technology. Is it also to be inspired to start doing things differently? Or do you think that therefore that human resources can actually also transition and transform itself to more tech, agile HR, agile type of work styles? How do you look at, let's say old fashioned work styles versus being progressed, let's say progressive and transformative?

[00:09:04] Adriana Roche:
 I think there's, there's something about inertia, right? And. The way in which you were doing things before is the way in which you're doing things now. And of course, you have people who are raised in that type of human resources administration. I do think that the new generation of HR people, even the folks who are attracted to it are coming into it with a different mindset.

[00:09:26] So it's, it's going to take a little while to get us there that said, I think the pandemic is accelerating certain trends. One of the most beautiful trends that I have seen in human resources is this idea of human-centered design. It's, you're not creating policies for compliance reasons. There's nothing I hate more than somebody telling me you need to fill out this form for compliance. Like that should not be the only driver. There's some things, of course, that are table stakes, but what is the experience that you want to give to the employee? And you need to be much more human and the pandemic brought that to the forefront and it continues to be that. You know, what you can really do to make a rich experience for companies, for people at companies. And that's really what people are looking for.

[00:10:10] So I do have hope that this pandemic is accelerating that realization by people that human resources are really about humans and yeah. And it's part about people who've always done it the same way before, but I also think it's part of the system I've been in organizations where, you know, you have senior executives who are like, I don't care about that, I want the efficiencies, I want the bottom line and you have people and human resources struggling to bring in the human side and they're not, you know, being able to do so. So I think it's a combination of. People who work in human resources, pushing this agenda a little bit more, and executives realizing that being human is actually good for the bottom line.

[00:10:50] Jeroen Frumau:
 We're in a period of you called it a crisis in the brief pre-discussion that we had. It's a world of transition and the crisis is creating many opportunities for transitions. What do you see currently as the biggest opportunities for the world of human resources management or human resources professionals to contribute to?

[00:11:19] Adriana Roche:
 Oh, you know, I think it, it Tufts a little bit into what we were saying before around bringing the human side to human resources and the idea that employees not only need it, but they're watching and they're listening and they're paying attention, and if you don't pay attention to the human side, They're not going to be around, they're going to go somewhere else. So it's no longer nice to have it's a must-have. 

[00:11:50] So the big opportunity that human resources have right now is to embrace that opportunity that this crisis is creating to really push the human side and help everybody understand how things can be better if you do it in that way.

[00:12:05] And not be afraid to just do it right. If somebody says, well, you know, we don't need to be doing whatever, whatever. Because it's too fluffy, just push it. Right. And then you can show the ROI because you will see it. And, and it's good to experiment and see what comes things stick, but it plays will remember if you don't pay attention to the human side, they, once these passes, they have long memories 

[00:12:28] Jeroen Frumau:
 You have recently arrived at  Mural. A unique organization in itself. And like you said already aggressively growing at the moment, what truly motivated you to join this organization? Maybe also in this role, because maybe you, you could have also joined in another role or in another organization as well, but why in this role, why in this organization?

[00:12:55] Adriana Roche:
So the mission of the company really, appealed to me. And, when I was talking to Mariano, our CEO, I had a really fun time discussing human resources with him and what he wanted from their role. Most people, as I've said before, when they're talking about HR is, Oh, can you keep the pipeline ready? Can you make sure our attrition is down? It's just all about those metrics. But in talking to Mariano, it was clear that for him, that was not his interests. Of course, they matter, but his interest was. Well, how can we bring the human-centered design to human resources? And I even said, I have this dream that I'm going to hire product designers into the HR organization, because we don't have that.

[00:13:38] We need that kind of skill set. He's like, Oh my goodness, that's great. There's one person. That's, you know, a, a product designer already in your team. And, you know, we saw eye to eye and it felt like it was a place where I could really, really Just dive deep into, to this area of making just the experience that a company just so much more fulfilling.

[00:14:01] We spent a lot of time at work, especially, you know now when everybody's just sitting in front of a computer, how can you make that experience, not just a paycheck, but something so much more than that. So yeah, I think with Marianna, he's given me a little bit of free reign and carte blanche to do that.

[00:14:19] Jeroen Frumau:
It's nice. You can contribute to the organization in that sense as well. What is the organization giving to you? Is it that card blanch? So, let's say that platform to contribute, to realizing that goal that also allows you to be that global citizen, or is that something else that you hope to also achieve for yourself by joining an organization like this. Say how there is a reciprocal type of reality between working somewhere and let's say being the employee. 

[00:14:49] Adriana Roche:
You know, I think what, when I said that, one of the reasons I wanted to go to Mural was because I could solve that problem of working remotely at one company, or I could help many companies do that. That is really my mindset. Right. I am maybe because I'd be working on tech in tech for a while, but I really like this idea of open sourcing, what you learn to help other people. And what Mural is giving me is not just. The cart launch to kind of test things out and try to push the envelope forward. It's more than that. And Mariano pushing us to actually do that. So, if I ever get complacent, I'll definitely have him pushing me to, to do better, but we're starting to open source the things that we're finding are helpful for us. And what I want to do after I'm done with my tour of duty at, at Mural is, well, how can I help other companies in the future? Do what we're doing at Mural and setting up there, their human resources functions in a way that they're thinking about the human side of it and not just the compliance payroll piece of it all. 

[00:15:52] Jeroen Frumau:
  To move a little bit away from the role in the company, but more the world of human resources management.  Where do you see examples in the world or practices in the world is, Hey, they really inspire me. So a company that does it radically different, or an individual that takes the stage all the time, you see him or her perform and you say it's a dream for me to also be able to impact the world or an organization like that, as well as, as something that inspires you in your professional world.

[00:16:31] Adriana Roche:
I think what I'm inspired by more than a company at this moment is: I have a group of, of human resources, peers that I often interact with because you know, it's good to just share experiences and share what you're doing and think through things, it can feel a little bit lonely when you're in HR and you're like, what am I trying to do here? And then you try to brainstorm it with other folks and that group. Became incredibly helpful to me. And we became very helpful to each other during the pandemic, because there wasn't a playbook around managing this situation and. That's where I'm actually finding my inspiration nowadays. I am inspired by the small and the big things that my group of peers are doing every day, because they have been thrown to the forefront of managing this crisis and they are doing it.

[00:17:21] Some are doing it better than others, but I'm just inspired by the fact that they're also going through a crisis and they're struggling and they, you know, they can have depression or they can have stress or they can have anxiety. And yet they're just. Going along and trying to help every company kind of get through this and helping their communities.

[00:17:39] So truly, I think more than a company I'm just inspired by the community, the HR community at large right now. 

[00:17:46] Jeroen Frumau:
 And how do you bring that into practice now in the company where you are? What are your tactics of helping the Mural to achieve its goals that Mariano has probably set with you or you've set for yourself? How do you learn from the outside world? Yeah. 

[00:18:05] Adriana Roche:
 So there's, there's, you know, specific things. One of the groups that is struggling the most and not to say that other groups are not, but ones, if the ones that are struggling the most are our parents, especially parents of small children. If you have two working parents, you have small kids that are all of a sudden stuck at home, and they need that double paycheck to be able to pay their mortgage or whatever it is. It's tough for them. And there isn't a simple solution to that problem. And really understanding from our peers, what are they testing out in other organizations, and what's really helping them and then bringing those learnings in-house has been very helpful. 

[00:18:46] So one of the things we did at the very beginning of the pandemic is we tried to do something where we were doing school at home. So we were putting. Some classes, so the kids could be distracted and, and do that, which was great for a certain age of kids. It's the really, really young ones that of course just need hands-on. But what we really learned is that a flexible schedule was one of the things that really impacted the wellbeing of these parents and the ability of, not have to be at every single meeting, recording certain meetings, async communication, all those things that now seem a little bit more obvious, but that was very helpful to speed up the learning because you're hearing from other peers, what they're testing out and what's working and what's not working. 

[00:19:28] So that's, that's one of those things that, that was very, very helpful. And I think that right now we're trying to test out is wellness. Right? Wellness is one of those things that is very top of mind for people they're stressed. People are not moving as much as they used to. You're in front of a laptop all day in Zoom. So understanding from other folks, like, what are you trying out? What are you hearing? What's working, what's not working and putting that in place in house. So you can also test it out and sharing with your team. So things that we know too is that. You know, a lot of us were like, Oh, let's do a meditation class or let's get people a wellness stipend so you can exercise. That is not enough. 

[00:20:06] And one of those things that we have found to be crucial is the idea of bringing purpose to your work because you can't change the pandemic. You can't change how hard things are for people, but if you at least find that the work that you're doing day in and day out, brings meaning to your life. It really does help with your wellbeing. So, you know, all those other things are on stipends, a flexible schedule, all that stuff of course helps us to really think that we're really finding is how do we have purpose? So how do we train our managers to make sure that they're taken away that. Not so good work. How do we make sure that we tie it to the big picture? Those things are the ones that we're thinking are moving the needle right now. 

[00:20:48] Jeroen Frumau:
 You also see people around you that discover because there is that more, that purpose driven conversation, maybe also happening in the organization that they work with an organization where maybe that purpose cannot come to fruition. Maybe have a great job and experience, let's say great colleagues, but because times are changing and priorities are changing that they struggle with maintaining that focus on living their purpose in a balanced way, work life and things like that. Do you run into those situations as well in your staff community, or would you say, I think that people already selected Mural as an employer they're implicitly already having a purpose match? 

[00:21:36] Adriana Roche:
 I think that it's true for most people. One of the things I am finding is that the company is growing at such a fast speed that it's not the same place that it used to be a year or two years ago, where it was smaller, it felt more like a family and now it's growing, and the pace of change is not easy for everybody. So I'm finding that some of our early employees are struggling a bit with. What's my place that Mural. And can I find it again? And the reality is that there's going to be some people for whom Mural is no longer the right place for that purpose and other people where, where it is, and both need to be handled with empathy, right? It's like let's have that open discussion and communication. And if this is no longer the place, let's figure out a transition plan and that's totally okay for those that are struggling. They really want to stay and they want to adapt to the changes. Okay. How can I help you really go through that change, so you can stick around for this journey that you really want to be in. So both really need to be handled with empathy, but, but yeah, it's not, it's not for everybody all the time because the company is changing so quickly. 

[00:22:46] Jeroen Frumau:
 What makes the ideal Mural employee, or what type of staff do you desire to attract? What type of people are you actually looking to add to your growing community? 

[00:23:00] Adriana Roche:
 Yeah, no, I'm, I'm excited. You're asking that question. Cause it was one of those conversations where we've done a deeper dive into in the last couple of months when I started and I was talking to Moran about it and he said, well, we need to hire, you know, hundreds of people. I said, well, let's get very aligned on what we're looking for because we want to make sure that.

[00:23:20] We're attracting the right folks or selecting the right folks. And there were a few things that really did pop out. Of course it is a fast growing tech company. So a lot of us are looking for people who are smart and nimble and, you know just proactive. But what I was pushing us to figure out was what are the things that are unique to mural there's like those entry, you know, price of entry values that you have to have, but then what is unique to us?

[00:23:48] And a few things just really popped out. One of them is this idea of the global mindset. I'm thinking global understanding. Other perspectives. And that's very important for us both externally because we have our customers that are very global. You know, you're in the Netherlands here in the United States, but I'm from Venezuela and that's very true of all of our customers, but then also our employee population is very global. We have a huge office in Argentina. We have people in APAC and EMEA and the idea of, Oh, there's only one way of communicating or talking or understanding each other. It's very important to us. Even during the holidays, we were doing some, some holiday cars that had snow and things like very, that were very wintery. 

[00:24:32] And our CEO was like, well, that's not with our values in Argentina. It's the middle of summer right now. So says we're in a bathing suit. So that was like a funny little example. But, but it's really something that we try to bring to the table and, and just. Kind of goes into that diversity inclusion conversation, but it's broader because it really does encompass that plus national identities and everything that encompasses.

[00:24:56] Another piece is that we just are very playful. It's, it's a company that just. Takes the problems that we're solving seriously, but we don't take each other seriously or, you know, ourselves too seriously. We, we just like to have fun. We like to make little jokes. We'd need to add levity to things.

[00:25:13] Even if you take a look at our brand, it's just very colorful and playful. And that's very true of how we, how we are. And, and, you know, I think that's very unique. I haven't seen that at many. Companies before and it just makes it kind of delightful to work there. And, and it's true of our product too. We try to like delightful little things into the product. Like there's a confetti thing you can do when you want to celebrate. And those are pieces that, that would like to add in there. 

[00:25:39] And the other one that that come to comes to mind has been a big one is this idea of adapting to thrive. And it really goes with the idea of design thinking. And that's a method that we really, really believe in. Don't just all of a sudden go into a hole and try to come up with a beautiful. Product, just try to understand your customer, build something, test it out, iterate and go along the way. And that's really something that our CEO is passionate about, but it's been really fun.

[00:26:05] And the side of HR too, cause it kind of pushes you to really validate, validate things with employees who are ultimately your customer. And I think it just makes us build better products, which ultimately near all the company is a product we're trying to build. 

[00:26:19] There are two types of questions that I still would like to ask you. One is a very personal one and it's, it's a question that we also use during the Talent Sprint as an event, when we have people in our events and things of that, then I thought why not ask you that question as well,

[00:26:36] Jeroen Frumau:
 Is there an untold story that tells people immediately who you are? 

[00:26:42] Adriana Roche:
 Hmm. Story that tells me immediately who I am.

[00:26:53] Maybe this is, this is maybe this one. So I have two kids, two boys, one is three and the other one is one. And they are the three-year-old needs to start going to school. And schools here are mostly closed, but daycares are open because they're private. So they're open a few days out of the week. And I was very passionate about finding a school that I feel represents why I want my kids to be, which ultimately, you know, kind of represents who you are because it's that weird ego thing. But I wanted a school, that was multilingual, that it wasn't just in English, and I really, really wanted something that was very different from what you find here in the Bay area, which is very like science driven. I wanted a school that focused, not on him, learning how to count or learning how to read. Can he be an emotionally resilient human being. So how can we teach him those foundational skills of go to the park and be with your friend and learn how to share and learn that when you get sad, because you can't share, you understand your feelings and you know how to deal with that. That to me It is, it's a story that I think represents who I am, because I feel like that is missing in how we raise our children nowadays.

[00:28:09] And you see it in adults, people who are very, very smart, but they're just not emotionally strong. And then they just like, you know, have a hard time dealing with, with everyday life. So it's, it kinda like goes back to that global mindset and then just really making sure that those foundational skills of being a human being are there before you start piling on the knowledge. 

[00:28:32] Jeroen Frumau:
Where do you see the world in 10 years from now?

[00:28:35] Adriana Roche:
Who knows? I wish I had a good enough imagination to picture what it's going to look like.  But my father is a college professor and one of the things that him and I have been talking a lot about is - especially now that college students are not even going to to university in person - is what is the point of college education. And one of the things and having a ride to a total conclusion, but one of the themes that we keep going around is knowledge becomes much more ubiquitous, nowadays, and easy to find. And the purpose of college should not be, or even to any type of schooling should not be to impart knowledge on you necessarily, because it is so much easier to find you can Google something and find it. But really it should be teaching you going back to those human skills. It should be bringing communities together. One of the biggest things that I got out of my college experience was the community of friends that I still rely on for emotional support or finding a job or, you know, getting advice on things, and I really do hope that this thing, this pandemic, this crisis that we're going through is really helping people realize that we need to work better as a community. I'm focused on the human side a little bit more. I think we kind of forgot that along the way. And and I, I'm just hoping that that's what this thing is going to bring. And in 10, 15 years, you know, colleges will be more about raising humans and, and, and creating communities versus just imparting knowledge.

[00:30:13]Jeroen Frumau
It would almost open a new conversation but briefly let's say with a group of facilitators, I'm involved in a nonprofit initiative where we invite teenage children and young adults who actually engage in design thinking exercises, but not for the sake of coming up with a solution, but to experience what it is to collaborate together, to understand and frame the problems in a much more humanistic way to address them together and to explore actually a possible directions.  And again, here not to come with an outcome, but actually to grow as a young professional, as a young adult and a young professional to be, have that agility that I think you also already as envisioning as an, as a critical requirement for your very young children at this moment.

[00:31:04] Adriana Roche:
No, but that's great. You're doing that because you're creating this ability to. Create empathy. How often do you say to somebody? Hey, how are you? Good. Okay. It's like, when do you actually tell somebody the truth, or you care about the truth? So I think,
 and I think what's interesting to see you talk about developing resilience. And I think not only the future professionals need that in, at a total different level than today's professionals. We're dealing with a crisis now. We need to envision a world in the future where any type of crisis is coming towards us much faster than in the last century.

[00:31:40] It probably or frequent. So in a lifetime, you're probably going to experience three or four or maybe five times a crisis, but it's financial environmental, health will be different ways. Where maybe I'm a little bit older than you are. I can say that, honestly, say that without having to disclose your age, but let's say the only crisis I had been through was the economic crisis in the eighties of the, of the last century and maybe an economic crisis following early this century, but it's all normal, but this health crisis and the environmental crisis definitely is there. But we take in different is I think what the future generation really is going to be prepared for to how to deal with it. Maybe they can solve it, but they need to be able to deal with it. And I think  that's what's tomorrow's professionals also needs to have, and you can't start early enough voting them to those skillsets.

[00:32:37] Jeroen Frumau 
The last question that we ask all our guests on the show is not a question. That you have to answer, but it's, maybe you want to think about it. We really would like to understand what human resources challenge you would like to see unlocked in the coming five to 10 years. So what is that topic or that reality that you say we have no solution for it today, but I hope that in five to 10 years from now, we have solved it.

[00:33:09] Adriana Roche:
 One that I think has been in the back of my mind for a few years is, and I don't want to call it this, but this is what it's generally referred to in human resources, the idea of performance reviews.  Nobody likes them. It's one of those times a year where once or twice a year, you kind of get together and you kind of get dissected and see how you, how you performed. Everybody hates it. The employee hates it. The manager hates it. HR hates it. Nobody likes it, but it feels like is that thing that you need to do for compliance to be able to pay people. And we have it in their head, the thing that we we convince ourselves of is. Well, we're doing this because we need to give the person feedback, understand how they're trending in their performance and coaching for the future.

[00:33:59] And, if that is true, if the main reason why we're doing this is to give you coaching, to align on how you perform against your role and then give you the right promotion of the right compensation, if it is because we want to help you in your career.  I don't know how we're supposed to do it, and that's what I'm hoping we're going to unlock, but how heavy it is, how punitive it steals. How just, you know, we're just not focusing on the right, the right pieces of it. And this is something that I'm trying to figure out how we're going to do a Mural right now. And sure. I'm not going to get it right at the beginning, but hopefully we can iterate along the way and make it better. But that's one thing that I'm like, how can we turn this around, so that people have clarity into how they're doing in their jobs. They find a purpose, they know where their careers are going and you're doing it, of course, in a systematic fair way so that then you can figure out what your compensation or your promotional looks like. But that's, that's one thing where I feel like the HR profession continues to struggle and figure out what the right way to do it.  

[00:35:03] Jeroen Frumau:
 Thank you for that perspective, because I think it's a, there's a very interesting challenge to be unlocked. So let's see where we are in five to 10 years from now. Well, touch base and see what happens to say. Yeah. 

[00:35:15] I want to thank you for your presence here today with us on this podcast show, if people would like to know more about your background or if they want to know more about Mural. What is the best way to to inform themselves on, on your thinking on your presence or on your platform where you're working these days? . 

[00:35:36] Adriana Roche:
 I'm mostly active on LinkedIn. So if you want to know about my background or things, I publish, that's usually the best way to to find me. 

[00:35:45] Jeroen Frumau:
 Okay then will that references in the show notes for this podcast show and the same for a Mural? 

[00:35:51] I look forward to wherever Mural is taking the world, but very interested to see  how you are able to help them to progress and to accelerate with all the ambitions that they have.

[00:36:04] And yeah, maybe we, we cross each other in the future our routes. And thank you once again for your time, your insights and inspiring views on the world of human resources management. 

[00:36:13] Adriana Roche:
Thanks for having me.


Introduction Adriana Roche
Being Human centred in HR
Inspirations in her profession
About a Purpose match
About preparing for the Future
About the Future of education
UNLOCK(ED) Question
About the Talent-Sprint