The Harder it Gets, the Better it Gets - with Special Guest Josiah Keane

In this episode, Sam welcomes Josiah Keane, a seasoned Creative and Messaging Director with extensive experience in political campaigns. The conversation delves into the high-pressure environment of political work, the importance of deadlines, and how Josiah thrives under pressure. They discuss the challenges of client expectations, the impact of long hours on personal life, and the role of humor in stressful situations. Josiah shares insights on work ethic, influences from his upbringing, and the importance of staying calm in emergencies. The episode concludes with advice for young professionals in the industry.

Transcript

(00:00.11)
Welcome back to Cowboys Not Agants. Today, I have got a very, very, very special guest. This special guest is another one of Sam's Army that nobody really knows about. In the past, we've had two other gentlemen on the podcast, Bob Jump, who's a voiceover. And who's by the way, his podcast is getting people are still downloading that thing. It's really strange. Great voiceover. Yeah, it's like it's like three years old.

And then Gary Reed, who's a copywriter. And then the gentleman I have today is absolutely the guy that made me look really good for a long, long, long time. We're pleased to welcome Josiah Keane to the podcast. Josiah and I worked together for 15 solid years, 15 solid years. And Josiah's

title is, I'm not sure what is your title? Creative Director is the way I would put it, but Creative and Messaging Director. Yeah. Messaging Director. Yeah. So Josiah is a very unique individual. And the reason I want to name on today is the title of this. We don't normally have episode titles prior to the podcast, but we do today. And, and the title is the harder it gets, the better it gets. So Josiah is a very unique, first of all, welcome. Did I tell you welcome? Welcome.

Welcome to the world famous Cowboys Not Aged, it's heard in 84 countries and all 50 states. Longtime listener, first time caller. Yes, you are a long-term listener. That's right. That's right. Exactly right. But what I was saying is that there's just very few people in my life that I know that the harder it gets, the better it gets. And this is truly

my experience with this gentleman. And when I say hard, I mean hard. I'm talking about we were in a deadline, and he still is, deadline driven industry. And everything that we did, every project that Desai and I did, there's very few of them that I can remember Desai, and we did probably legitimately thousands of them over the years. There wasn't one that was ever like, just take your time on that. You know, don't worry about that. That's you know, that's due three months from now.

Bishoff (02:21.216)
It's always, always, always like do yesterday. during election season, so Josiah and I were in the political business. And so Josiah has done many, many, many political campaigns, probably in every state in this country. And he's done many, many, many public affairs or initiative ballots or public affairs projects as well as ballot measures in California. And so that's the type of thing where.

We specialize in mail. No, we did lots of stuff together. Just so we had lots of fun. did radio, we did television. Any sort of communication you can think of. mean, if we were doing it still, we'd be doing podcasts. We'd be dead. yeah, exactly. But everything that we did, every project that we did always had a very tight deadline on it. And the thing that folks don't understand is

Josiah was doing this for all the partners of my company at the time. And so there's multiple clients, multiple things, multiple things coming in projects coming around from around the country. It's not just one area where he's got to produce folks and he not only produced, but in my opinion, and I only took advantage this once or twice. The more pressure, the more vice I put on this guy's neck, the better.

fricking product was. that's amazing to me. I don't know who does that. And I can only think in 15 years, I can only think of two times where Josiah snapped on it that week. Once this was legitimate and the other wasn't so legitimate, but it's okay. I'd love to hear the stories. Well, I remember. And there were many times that Josiah and I had conversations at two or three o'clock in the morning, my time, which is one o'clock in the morning, his time.

During election cycle, this guy works around the clock, right? Well, that's you have to do. So elections are unique, right? I mean, like you have, it's a business where you have a definitive end date. You have to get everything done before election day. And for direct mail, that means getting everything mailed in mailboxes the Tuesday before the election, the last day that post office guarantees anything to arrive before the election day. So we have a really a

Bishoff (04:33.546)
And I'm just going to say this right now, since there's people who are since in the state that have taken over that mail dropped three or four days after the election to say, did we ever do that? No, we don't do that. We don't do that. I mean, it's an interesting business because I mean, it really, you work hard with your client, you know, throughout a year leading up to an election. And then you have two, maybe three months of real like heavy campaigning time.

where you're communicating with voters. And really that window of communication is really probably two months. mean, or, you know, for a well-funded campaign, sometimes just a month, and you're trying to get out a lot in a small little window. So, yeah, there's a lot of pressure and there's not a lot of time. There's only so many hours in the day to get it all done. That's right. And let's, let's define a lot, Josiah. We had a job board back in the day. My guess is your job board is still pretty healthy, but it's

It was crazy at the height of, of, of our business. mean, I remember a time there's a thousand jobs on the board. mean, real deal thousand freaking jobs on the board. It's a, it's a lot of work to squeeze out in a short amount of time. mean, so a thousand jobs might mean, and if you divide them up, that could be radio, TV, mail. It's then having to coordinate with all the different vendors to get those things done. like for television, I mean, you're

I mean, did that, Sam, when you'd fly out to Kansas and produce those ads, but we're writing the scripts, you know, like up until the minute that you're filming. And then there's the filming, and then there's the post-production. And we got into the client approval process. Exactly. We could do our job. I used to joke, folks, that I could do my job so much more appropriately if I didn't have clients, right?

You know, the clients are the ones that have kind of everything riding on the line. I mean, it's their name. That's right. I mean, I totally get, you know, like we're our job, I feel like, is to push the envelope and what we can do and what we think is effective. Sometimes the client does a good job in terms of like maybe reining us in a little bit. And, you know, and you need that when it comes to politics. Sometimes there's only so far you should go or things that you should say.

Bishoff (06:56.856)
but we might try to push the envelope a little bit. Client changes can be rough. mean, those are the things that they can... Those are the things Well, it takes time. It takes time. That's the point. That's exactly right. That's why you're up at two o'clock in the morning, because you're trying to meet a deadline, but people are still changing stuff. I mean, what's the record? What's the record? You told me once.

Let's see if it's changed. What's your record for how many times the client changed a particular project or piece of mail or something? I mean, I've probably around 30 times. I mean, I've had things like, you know, if you have a mail piece, so like a mail piece for us, I just for listeners who may not be the political mail that you get in your mailboxes. It's usually a two sided jumbo postcard, eight and a half by 11. You know, there may only be 150 words on there, but if you're mailing that out to thousands of people, there's

tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe more of dollars behind getting that mail piece out and communicating that message. So you're picking the words that you say on there carefully. You're choosing the imagery and the design carefully so it has an impact and it stands out. And you want to make sure it's factually backed up so you don't get sued. Exactly. So you want to make sure that everything's accurate, that the statements are accurate. sometimes clients have lots of changes. And usually I feel like

it can be frustrating because I mean, we all are doing our best job and we feel like we put our best into something and then you get a lot of changes and then maybe they even want like a complete redesign or something. But in the end, I've always kind of found, even though it's hard, it usually gets better with it, you know, when you're getting that feedback. Sure. I mean, I've been the first to admit I'm not the smartest guy in the room and we'll always...

make a change if it sells the client better. And of course they're the first ones, they know more about themselves than we do. So, I mean, of course we need the help. So it's nothing to complain about, but it's, is, it is fun to, fun to reminisce because it's sometimes it's just, it's again, that's why it's 24, you know, that's why you've slept under your desk more than once, right? Well, yeah. And you mentioned like, and then you were very kind in your intro and then, know,

Bishoff (09:09.934)
talking about my patience or something and like sometimes I don't know if I have that patience. mean, I snapped on you at least once. I I did. I did. No, twice. remember twice, but once was justified. Yes. absolutely. Absolutely. It was. Yeah. You know, it's fun. I mean, fun in a funny way, but I mean, the older you get, are you getting more patients or less? I think so. I think you get wiser as you get older, but I mean, like at some point, I don't know when it was like during

the past 22 years that I've been, more than that, 25 years that I've been doing this line of work. At some point I kind of, I heard the saying, you know, treat the problem, not the people. And the people aren't necessarily, you know, any particular person, but just maybe it's the input that you're getting from others. Maybe it's not just the client, but it could be, you you Sam, or it could be whoever else I'm working with.

And you know, some things might seem unreasonable and it might be really tough, but like, you know, you focus on the problem and trying to solve that and work on that. That's where I think like maybe a little bit of the patience comes from, because then you can kind of zero in on solving that problem. that makes it, you know, that makes it fun. mean, I mean, I've been doing this 25 years and I mean, I'm still enjoying it more than ever. And, it's because of the, it's, it's the puzzle.

I mean, trying to solve whether it's like in a candidate campaign or a ballot measure, trying to solve this like messaging riddle, how to communicate to somebody, how to make it stand out, how to be most efficient with the dollars that we have in a campaign. It's a fun riddle and you know, sometimes it comes down to minute little changes that may seem unimportant, unimportant, and may seem very frustrating to have to make after you're trying to get something out on a tight deadline.

But if you address the problem, I feel like it always works itself out and you just get it done rather than focusing on the people or that exterior thing and getting upset about it. Yeah. When you look back to say, what do you think shaped your work ethic the most? That's a good question. I mean, I would say it's probably, you know, the role models in my life, my parents, my mentors in this business. mean, the first job I had in or second job I had in politics, there was this kind of

Bishoff (11:28.49)
mentality that you work hard and you make yourself available and there's really no punch, there's no time clock, it's 24-7. But when you love something, when you love the work, when you get a thrill and a kick out of a campaign and you get that adrenaline rush from working on a campaign, because again, it's three months out of the year, right? mean, it's longer than that, but when you're in

when you're in it and you're working seven days a week, you get a little bit of a rush, a little bit of high from that. So I think learning that, but I mean, again, my parents also, like, I mean, I saw them work hard growing up. What did, I don't know what your parents did for a living, Josiah. My mom was, she stayed at home and raised us kids, went back to school and refused to get her teaching credential. And then, uh, for

25 plus years into her 70s. My dad worked in the restaurant business his whole life, general manager of like various restaurants. Talk about tough. mean, talk about long hours. Long hours, holidays, you you name it. But then, you know, I saw him come home and work in the yard and do a ton of yard work too. So, you know, it's like the work never stops. So like, I'm not, I don't know. So I guess I never sitting around and

Not working hard is hard for me to do. mean, I, I do best when I'm keeping busy. And, yeah. And so, you know, I had a paper route when I was 12 and started working then never really have stopped working. Two things you said there prompted observation or question is that, that is one is, the hours you, you knew it was going to be long hours. did two years ago. And it's funny because I just, just recently saw somebody that

worked in political, uh, 2007 and then, they quit and they're back now, but they, they told me that I, you know, I had to stay up. think she was 19 when she was at this particular job. I, just, you know, I was getting tired of working till midnight every night. I'm like, man, when you're 19, that's what you do in this business. I mean, it, it, it just, it is what it is. So I, I just think we come from a different time, maybe. And then there's kids, there's kids out there that.

Bishoff (13:49.57)
that still work hard and work long hours. the expectation of working long hours seems to me to be something of... I don't think I recall the term work-life balance when I started out. Work was my life. Work was my life. Are you kidding me? Yeah. And I know that when you look back, I'm sure like...

There are times where I probably was out the door at five o'clock, not during the campaign season, but you know, just at other times. But I think that the campaign mentality for anybody that's worked in politics, whether you're, if you're in the consulting realm or kind of I do political work, or if you're like actually on a campaign, you know, down in a district somewhere, like on the streets, like walking door to door or something. I mean, like that is a, it is a never ending.

job, you're always on call, especially now. mean, at least when we started, like, you know, you could get away because there, mean, there was, you know, Blackberries were a new thing, but that was like a new thing. mean, but I mean, you you can get a, they could call you on your cell phone, but there was still a little more, maybe respect about not calling, you know, calling people on weekends. I mean, the way when we originally, when I started out, I mean, fax machines were how we sent

designed mail pieces that people for approvals. And it was on a was it on the thermal paper was in a thermal paper. We had to take an iron on the end of the roll. You had to like get an iron out. Yeah, we're old. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So the other thing that you mentioned or prompted something to ask you about it, and I think you and I kind of share this mentality, frankly, I think our entire company used to but that is that we are not the

We're not doing this for accolades. We're not doing this for credit. We're not doing this to be a superstar. We pride ourselves on being behind the I always did. I always wanted to be behind the scenes. didn't want people to even know what I was doing. And you in particular, people don't have any clue. Well, now the internet's known, but they have no clue what you do, right? And so do you, you savor that kind of role in politics, the behind the scenes stuff?

Bishoff (16:13.27)
I mean, like I feel like no matter what I'm doing is important. And I take a lot of pride in doing it well and doing, whatever it is. mean, like you talk about work ethic and I think if my job was to sweep out a room, I'd want to sweep it out well. So there's no dust on the ground. I mean, I feel the same way about whatever I'm doing now. I mean, it could be writing a mail piece. could be writing digital ads.

be doing a radio commercial in the studio. I some of it's more maybe glamorous or fun, but I care about that in product. really, I don't really care. I like I care about who our clients are. But I really truly believe like when it comes to the work that I do, no matter what type of it's somebody running for city council or somebody running for US Senate, they're both important. And I care about both of those and objectives kind of equally. Absolutely.

Now, another thing that I just thought of is, you know, you're going and I've experienced this once when I ran a mayor's campaign. And I think I've talked about it in this podcast before, but I'd to examine it with you a little bit. And that is you're going 150 miles an hour. I mean, for three months on end, three months, three months, at least three months. And when I say again, we've talked about the hours involved. It's seven days a week. It's around the clock, you know.

You kind of lose track of time and space sometimes. But then all of a sudden it comes to a halting end. It's just, that's it. Yeah. Have you ever experienced a bout of like, not long-term, but like depression? Absolutely. I mean, like we talked about it, you get a rush from this. I mean, like you have to have adrenaline going to be able to stay awake. I mean, that and caffeine. I've never been a nicotine person, but I mean like, you know, caffeine and the adrenaline from the

You're a coffee snob, aren't you? I try to keep it to just two cups a day, but it's a poor over. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I mean, you'd have to have a lot of adrenaline to be able to keep alert, to keep your mind alert. Cause like, this isn't a physical job, right? I mean, like, um, when, when we're working for those few months, I mean, I have a, I have a standing desk and I have a sitting desk and I alternate between the two. And then I have a chair in my office and I'll alternate between that. So three different.

Bishoff (18:37.129)
arrangements, but you have to keep your ass in that chair for 12 hours a day sometimes. And that hurts. mean, like that isn't comfortable. So physically it can be physically, but then, but mentally you're also like having to stay focused and move to a lot of different tasks and you know, like, and get a lot of work done in a short amount of time. So when it's all over, absolutely. mean, like I'll get, when we're busy getting 300, 500 emails a day, just, and I started laughing through that.

And then, and then it slows down to a trickle and then I'm getting emails from Creighton Barrow and that's about it. You know, like those client emails that made you feel really important are all gone. And yeah, so you hit this turns off. hit this. It's a downer, right? It's like, it takes you about sometimes two, three weeks for people just to get back. Life knows, like, I don't like to go schedule any sort of like.

I don't want to go to a party. I don't have people over because I don't want to see people after all that's said and done. takes a lot to adjust and decompress and get back to normal life. Yep. So you're one of the few people whose work actually got better when the deadlights got tighter. Why do think you thrive under pressure rather than fold? Well, I have a lot of experience procrastinating to be honest with you. You do not.

Yeah, I was probably that guy in high school and college that waited until the last minute to do a few things. mean, like I try not to, but honestly, I mean, it might be partially that. I'm kind of kidding. Make it up for lost time, huh? Yeah, maybe so. But, you know, I think it just comes down to you don't, mean, if does your work get better as you know, have less time to do it. And I think it just, you have to focus more in on it. You have to like zero in and you have to like.

shut everything else out and focus on getting what you need to get done in that short amount of time. then you address again, when you address the problem, whatever that is, whatever the puzzle is that you're trying to solve, and you address that and you're focused on that, you you zero in and you get it done. I don't know if it's like I'm special at it or anything. I think it's probably a trait that we all have. mean, like when, when you, when you're confronted with something that's like an emergency or something.

Bishoff (20:56.509)
And everything else kind of goes away and your vision just focuses. mean, and that's kind of, and not that we're doing an emergency work, but I mean, like when you're under tight deadlines, it kind of feels like that. When you have people barking at you saying that I need this right away with her, it's delivering a spot to a television station or getting something to the printer to get it nailed in time. mean, there's pressure and you just say I'm fishing with some minuscule BS. Yeah, that's right. You just find a way.

What does a hard deadline do to your brain? Fight or flight or something else? You're so used to hard deadlines. You take a moment, take a breath. There's other things I might want to do, but I've got to get this done. Shut out the rest of the world and focus and get your tasks done.

For me, like, I don't know if I can have like ADHD or not ADHD, but like attention deficit disorder or something like I, I hear other stuff like going around in the office to me, like that's distracting. That's maybe like procrastination and I could easily just shut, know, let me look up like this news article, what's going on. But I have to like zero out the world and I have headphones that I have like, either listen to Miles Davis or some classical piano music and trying to just purely focus on whatever task it is.

And and people know that when your door is shut in that office Not not to poke the bear, right? I don't I don't get too many knocks. that's either smarter than that smarter than that Well, I'm not grumpy about it. I mean like and I try to I mean least I hope I'm not Well, just like welfare. Yeah Yeah, well, that's why I the headphones so that way don't have to always close the door and I can just put on the headphones and just

try to focus. Yeah, are still alive. So one of the characteristics you have, Josiah, is you're extraordinarily calm. So when he did snap at me, it's pretty scary, you know, it's enough to like, you're like a boy. And you know that I'm not calm at all. I mean, I try to be, but I'm a little rough, maybe sometimes under dress.

Bishoff (23:20.525)
So how did you learn how to stay calm when everybody else is losing their mind? I don't know. like, honestly, I don't know if I am. I mean, maybe I projected that to you, but I don't know if I always am the most calm. Dude, you are the calmest, coolest guy. I mean, my nephew might be a little cooler than you, but you are extraordinarily calm. Well, let's do this. All right. Go ahead. I mean, I don't know. mean, like,

You know, in growing up, I was in Boy Scouts and I remember doing emergency preparedness, this merit badge that you work on and you simulate like what to do and if there's an accident, let's say, and you come across somebody and they're in the street and you have to like render some sort of first aid to them. they, and you maybe this is the first realization of

needing to stay calm in an emergency. But so the first thing you do is you don't rush over there. You stay calm, take a breath. You look around and see that there's no cars coming, see that there's no other danger. then you can't help anybody unless you are safe yourself. Exactly. So, mean, so, you know, I had that my dad's a type one diabetic. So he's, you know, so he's always

you know, been insulin dependent and there are times growing up where he'd, his blood sugar would get really low and then he'd get low blood sugar, pass out, have seizures. So when I was probably eight or 10, first time I remember like an ambulance come into the house to treat him for that. And then as I got older, I mean, it happened a few more times and then I was the one who go over there. There's a time where I was home alone with him as in middle school, probably seventh grade.

And I had to, he's blood sugar got too low, passed out and he's had like a grand mal seizure. And we have to raise their blood sugar. There's this little glucagon shot that you give them. At the time it came in a little capsule. There is the little sugar pellet and you would take the syringe that had the solution in it and you'd have to mix the two, pull it out and then give them a shot. That was hard. Cause that's like that emergency situation. Like I was telling you about in that merit badge that I took.

Bishoff (25:49.759)
Well, you learn how not to panic. You don't panic. You can't panic and you just got to take life and that's what you're dealing with. then you get it done and yeah, you stay calm. I mean, so then... That's a great answer, just Sayakeen. I love that answer. I'm sorry to interrupt. No. So I mean, like if I had to think about it, maybe it's something from like that time.

And just, and just always remembering, you know, you got to stay calm in an emergency. And again, we're not dealing with life and death here, but it is a high pressure type of job. Things often feel like an emergency. mean, sometimes they are in politics. Sometimes there's crises. And in those crises, you just have to stay cool and stay calm. And, and again, it's addressing the problem, not the people. I mean, it's easy to get distracted by the people and complain about like the situation.

But if you address the problem, you get it done. Exactly. Exactly. Is there a work habit or ritual you rely on when things get tough? mean, I guess you just mentioned maybe a little coffee or maybe a little Frank Sinatra or a little easy listening music. I mean, I find there's certain music that I work better with. I'm not a huge Miles Davis fan. In fact, I can only name one of his albums, Kind of Blue.

I feel like when I listen to that music, it gets me in a zone and I get a little smarter. And I'm able to just concentrate and like come up with more creative ideas or get work done a little better. I mean, even to the way I've arranged my office, was saying I got the standing desk, the sitting desk and a chair, just having that right environment. Yeah. Over the years, what do hard deadlines teach you about yourself? That I need more patience.

Stop it, dude. I don't know, maybe that I can handle a lot. You know what mean? Like when you think about it, mean, like you talked about like how many jobs, how many projects we'll work on in a short amount of time. I mean, looking back on that and thinking about like what you accomplished during an election season, it can be overwhelming when you're in the midst of it and when you've got a lot of work to do in a short amount of time. But if you, you know, you just take one bite of a tongue and you get it done.

Bishoff (28:13.197)
So how do you even elephant just say one bite at a time? That's It seems to be a lot of parallels we're talking about with long distance runners. mean, all the stuff we're talking about, same kind of parallels. So speaking of running, do you do any physical activity outside the office at any time during the election season? I haven't truly. Time is an excuse for you. I mean, it truly is.

But do you find the physical activity helps stimulate your nervous system a little bit or helps calm the nervous system? I think that is something that I've gotten into within the last decade. I've never, when I was in my 20s, my fees, didn't work out. Like my ritual in the morning when I was younger would be to wake up, have that cup of coffee and maybe do some reading in the morning. But at some point I started getting into running.

mentioned that. So that's kind of what I do. I mean, I've done other workouts I've done called nine rounds boxing, workout, but, but running is kind of the one thing I've been doing consistently for the past 10 years. So I run about, I try to run three times a week, four miles a day or four miles each time I run. and then I'll, and then I'll come home and this is, you know, I've learned

in order to keep my body healthy and be able to continue that running, need to stretch. So I've got a little stretching ritual. I'll try to mix in weights and do some, and just stuff that I can do around the house. But that's, that's it. I, and I, I do need that now. I don't know if I needed it before because I wasn't doing it, but I mean, now without that running it, I, if I didn't do it, I don't feel like I would have the, the mental health maybe.

to be able to get through an entire election season. So I mean, like even though you have less time, you're more tired. It's harder to wake up at 5 a.m. They'll do it a few times a week, even during the election season because and it's hard and sometimes I'm running with my eyes closed. but you got to you got to sweat. I don't listen to music or anything. So that's just my time to think and process and Goggins ask baby. I love it. I love it.

Bishoff (30:29.261)
Do you believe that pressure reveals character or builds character? I think it builds character. I mean, maybe it reveals it to a degree, but I think you know, you have to have that experience of having pressure to be able to I think we all do better, know, whether it's just with experience and what life gives you and you gain wisdom from it. I mean, like I try to be a more patient person now. I mean, there's times that I'm definitely not. mean, like

Listeners, he is the most patient person I have ever met in my entire life and he's talking about being more patient. That's crazy to me. That's crazy to me. I mean, evaluate me. When I was under duress and talking to you, tell the listeners how I was. How was I, Josiah? I think you were about the same as you are now. You're just communicating. Sometimes your voice raises. Sometimes my voice raises.

Bishoff (31:28.117)
No, Sam, I think you'd be selling yourself short. mean, you all feel pressure when you're under a tight deadline, when you have a lot of stress. Yeah. And maybe we just exhibited that stress a little differently. like maybe I don't show it as much, but you still have it. Maybe I use four-letter words more often than normal. That kind of stuff.

How about does humor play a role? And I actually, think that I try always try to use humor with you because why, you know, you were always such a great audience. You always laughed at my jokes, whether they're funny or not. And I always appreciated that. Like Heather says, like if, know, if you want to make friends with Sam, just laugh at his jokes. So it's humor. Have you your stand up yet? No, I have not. Sorry, Brad Bonner. No, it's still on my desk. All right. It's it's it's still a plan. Still a plan.

Yeah, yeah, but does humor help you at all even or are you just so focused that it just kind of bypasses you? Yeah, I mean like I don't I mean not really I mean like I mean don't know because I like to laugh I mean like I enjoy laughing and and But I mean when I mean I saw this when we're trying to get our shit done. There's not a lot of time and I'm I have time for laughing Well, I will tell a funny story

I tell a funny story. I think it was after election day. You might have come for a football game. We were watching the movie Bridesmaids and it is the dress. It's the wet. Yeah, everybody got everybody was foods. Yeah, yeah, yeah. After lunch, you fell off the frickin couch. It was I loved it because I've never seen you like that. I'm like sweet. There's certain things that are like, mean, yeah, that's a funny scene.

It is my youngest daughter loves that scene too. Like when she's not feeling well, I'll show her that. Melissa McCarthy is a genius. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I got all these questions to say, how did, how did your approach to tough deadlines evolve from year one to say year 22 or 25, whatever you're in? That's a question. think, mean, like, how is my approach to tough deadlines evolved? I feel like I'm a little more.

Bishoff (33:48.717)
I just have that more experience. I've gone through the rodeo a few times, so I know what to expect. I know that we're going to get it done one way the other. I don't know, I like to think I have a little more wisdom too after 25 years of doing this and that it maybe doesn't take as long to get things done. I mean, I just have a little bit more. I've seen enough and done enough that I know what to do now.

but I mean, I tell my wife like before an election season, she don't even need to tell her. just knows that we don't make plans. So I can't, I guarantee I'm going to be able to be around for anything for a couple of months or make anything. well, it's just nothing, no dinner plans, no movies, no nothing. I mean, no concerts, no nothing. Did your girls, did you miss that on some of your

activities I'm sure you have activities with your two girls? Yeah, totally. All the time. I mean and again it's for a few you know there's usually- And I've met both of these girls and they're both going to be okay. It's just okay. can do alright. You know there's especially the way we were doing it we had usually there I mean if you're working in one state you have primary elections and you have your general elections so there might be

two to three months on either end of those elections where you're really busy. So maybe six months out of the year. But then we had it, you we were doing stuff nationally. And so we spread out our primary season from anywhere from March to August. Yeah. It just meant that you were spreading out the work, which is fine because you weren't maybe as busy all at once. mean, having a few campaigns going isn't a big deal. Right. But

Yeah, definitely missed out on some things. mean, especially as they get older now, they're 12 and 16. You know, you feel a little more emotional about like spending so much time working. But then at the same time, that's kind of, I got some advice once like when with kids, because they spend so much of their time at school and doing stuff. If you're there in the morning and if you can be there in the evening before they go to bed, you're good. Yeah. And I mean, like, so.

Bishoff (36:04.749)
They see me there every day. sometimes it might feel, maybe it's just getting older and feeling like, you know, they're getting to that age where we're looking at college for our oldest, you know, like they're going to hopefully leave the nest and then, and, but, you know, maybe it's just that nostalgia now at point in life. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So let's get to, let's get to the core of this, this whole topic of this podcast.

What's the example of a time you had a deadline that was impossible, yet you delivered something that was even better than the original plan? mean, again, I love what I do. So what I do, don't know if it's fully explained. I look at polling. I look at the messages that we have to... The data.

They analyze data. I'm thinking about the audience that we're sending it to and we're crafting a message to communicate that data, whatever that, you know, to a particular audience. So I'm either writing 70 words for a TV script or 160 words for a, for a radio ad or maybe 150 words for a mail piece. And it's all a puzzle. The way I,

I must be a visual person because I kind of see it as a puzzle and trying to like put together these messages in such a way that that it flows, that it is impactful and that it because like when you when you have a survey, you just have a plain message. You can't just put that message in a piece. You have to kind of create a narrative, a story around it, something that's a little more compelling. And then

if it's a TV ad or a mail piece, you're trying to create ad visuals and communicate. And I'm not the one designing it. I'm not the one editing it. So I have to be able to communicate to those people that are, what should it look like? What's the vision for it when I'm writing it? Be able to communicate that to them so they can design it or edit the ad. So I don't have a particular...

Bishoff (38:19.233)
piece that or anything. like, kind of think back to maybe the Heinemann days and there's a few pieces that we worked on with for him and maybe because that was, you know, one of the first times working on a Nebraska campaign because of the weight of that campaign. maybe we give our listeners background because they're in 84 countries. So this is 2006 where governor Dave Heinemann's governor of state Nebraska was primaried.

by a former football coach, Tom Osborne, who won three national championships and whose approval rating, think was 90, was it 92%. And so it was a tricky set of circumstances. And, was a congressman. mean, it wasn't like he didn't have experience in politics. Correct. Correct. And so we were running against the coach. And so that's the Heidemann race he's referring to. Yeah. Um, so it was a, it was a different kind of race. And Dave Heidemann was, he wasn't.

elected governor. wasn't like running a re-election. was former lieutenant governor that took over that position. yeah, I I learned a lot in that campaign. know, like Carlos worked on that and like he was great to work at. You know, that's one of the things that I've been blessed with in my career is being able to work with amazing people from, you know, whether it's you Sam or everybody else at Meridian.

to Carlos to some of our other clients that we've gotten to work with and learn from them. I mean, like, you know, that race in particular, you know, you had to stay positive. You couldn't attack. fool. You fool. So you have to you have to like you but you'd have to show a contrast, you know, and you had to do that with, you know, where they stood on different positions.

But you had to do it in a way that wouldn't offend the 90 % of people that view Tom Osborne favorably. You had to do it in a way that was respectful and that, that, but that was, that was a clear contrast. It was, that was an amazing, that was an amazing campaign and victory. One of, Dick Werland was a former, I think it's his name, Reagan's former, it was a pollster for Reagan. used to say, persuade.

Bishoff (40:40.651)
Let's see, persuaded by reason, moved by emotion. And so how did you, in that race in particular, how do you think we move people emotionally? The reasons were there. We laid out the case. mean, there were several key issues. just, we don't normally talk about this in here, but I mean, was. So I was doing the direct mail for that. didn't do any TV or anything. Right. You know, there's, there's, know, Nebraskans are proud.

Right. And there's, and there's this, and I think we tried to define what Dave Heineman's vision for the state was as kind of the Nebraska way. And that's the emotional part, you know, like that's like, he's talking about the way we live our lives. We have a certain, we're special. I mean, we're unique in all 50 states. There's a Nebraska way. And, and I think we tried to capture that in the language that we used on male pieces in that race. And,

And then the visuals that we showed, mean, whether it's, I mean, I remember this male piece and one of the large visuals was a woman in a diner and an older lady serving pie. And, you know, it just felt like home. And then, but we're communicating whatever the message was, whether it's like about jobs or immigration or whatever it was to, to voters in a way that like they could emotionally connect with. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you I always loved the, I always loved sunro- I'm a big sucker for sunrises and sunsets. And so you do a lot of sunrise stuff and we do flags and sunrises and corn fields and I, nothing to me says Nebraska more than a sunset on an irrigation pivot. It's just incredible. I mean, because there's a certain feeling to it and you know, to capture it in a still photograph is challenging sometimes.

But those are the kind of images I think, you know, emotionally that you really did a good, work on. You know, think that's the creative side of it. It's not just the writing. I mean, the writing goes along with it, but it's how visually anything makes you feel. mean, you can, a piece of art or a movie, mean, like, I mean, like it's, it's the visuals a lot of times that, uh, that are really able to connect with people and can get a lot of messaging that, you know, you

Bishoff (43:03.917)
you don't say with words. A photo can communicate maybe more than you can in terms of words. Yeah, that's right. For me, you're going to get me emotionally. You have to get me to try through music, what you can do in television and radio to some extent. Very interesting stuff. politics is full of that sort of stuff, even with the music. When you said that, think of an ad popped into mind as the Daisy ad. It's just sound.

Bishoff (43:37.869)
1964 right it was just the nucleus three two one right She's pulling out the date the flower petals. Yeah, very simple Very very simple stuff, but very very impactful and emotional So if you could you know teach well, I my guess is you already do you've got

younger folks in your firm now, you you're getting a little old in the tooth like me. But if you could teach young professionals one thing about managing pressure, what would it be? You know, like, that's one of the things I really enjoy is getting to, and maybe it's because it's like, you know, the water cooler talk type stuff, but I mean, just being able to sit down and like have conversations with folks in our office, especially the younger, younger.

co-workers, you know, one of the things I try to Convey is you know to be humble in terms of the way you approach something to not think that the way you're doing it is the right way and maybe that's one of the ways, know in terms of If I get some changes, maybe I felt like I wrote a really good script or something and I get a bunch of changes Well, maybe I it can get better. Maybe there's more than one way to do something but also

we don't always know. You've got to be curious about stuff and not just believe what you're told. If you're, if we're doing research for a project, don't just assume what you've read is the way it is. Think of like, well, why might I be given this information in this way? and try to stay curious and keep an open mind to things. mean, I love it. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, I mean, just be, I mean,

You gotta keep an open mind to everything. Even when you think you're 100 % certain, there's always room for doubt. You can trust in what you believe, but maybe you're not right. Yeah, I love that. That's great advice. Sorry, Lister, I can block all the text out except for my wife. She's texting. Say hi to Heather. Yeah, I will.

Bishoff (46:02.945)
That's so funny because I did a, you know, I interviewed, Jeff Kanger used to work for me and he came to me one time asking for like, how do I get ahead and this and that and other, he's a guy and he's been extremely successful. He's the president of a bank for heaven sakes. But, don't know if you saw that short or not, but I can't believe I told him that. I go, I go, you just remember one thing. He's like, what's that?

I go, me boss, you not. And the contrast is just I would tell them to be curious and humble and not believe it. I love it though. That's great advice. That is really good just another way of saying that. You know, it's like another way of saying, you may, you're not right. Because I feel that way too, when I'm working with people, when I'm telling them to be open minded, be curious, it's because what you're doing is probably the wrong way of doing it. So let me.

It's another way saying you're wrong and listen to me. Yeah, that's funny funny stuff I really really appreciate our time together Is there anything that I've cover not covered that I should or anything you anything you want to zing me on I? Kind of got into your soul a little bit today, and I enjoyed every second of it It's Sam. We were one of my favorite people in the world So it's a pleasure talking to you and getting to what's that I asked my life. What's not to love? That's right

No, I think we've covered it all. We covered working out. You got your Thrive shirt on. Yeah. We didn't. We didn't. I don't think we talked a little earlier about Husker football. And so I think we got it all covered. That's on the other channel. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still waiting for your brother to get on this podcast. Well, do it. He's one of three people that told me no. And you know what he said? I don't know if he'll listen to this or not. He'll call me on it. If he's upset, I say it. But he said, I just don't think I'd come across well.

Isn't that interesting? know, I sounds like it. So that's that's why I can't get any Cowboys on this podcast is because a true Cowboy is not going to come on this podcast. I felt the same way, though, I mean, because I'm not I mean, like, I don't want to I'm not a podcast person. I'm not like the upfront in the camera or anything like I've kind of felt similar. I was like, I'm like, when you sent me that text, it took me a little out to respond. It did. I thought about it. And I was like, I might text back. I'm like, you know,

Bishoff (48:28.591)
I'm like, well, and it's not for me. But you know, the more I thought about this your worldwide debut on podcast? Is this the first time you've been a guest on a podcast? Yeah, it is. I it. I love listening to podcasts, but never been a guest. Well, there you go. World, was fun introducing. It's great introducing my friend to Siakine. Thanks, Sam.