March or Die - with Special Guest Jeremy Stalnecker

In this compelling interview, Jeremy Stalnecker, a former Marine and Iraq combat veteran, shares profound insights on leadership, resilience, faith, and the true meaning of courage. Discover how military principles translate into everyday life and how to keep moving forward despite life's challenges.  

Topics:  Leadership, Resilience, Faith, Military, Veterans, Courage, Personal Development, Spiritual Warfare, March or Die, Mental Toughness

CHAPTERS: 

Courage that costs

Authority vs leadership

Resilience isn’t toughness

Faith without band-aids

Trauma vs excuse

“I’m fine” and the tells

March or Die origin story

Can grit become avoidance?

Marching without motivation

Advice to 22-year-old Jeremy

How to get help (Mighty Oaks)

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Find more information about our guest here: 

https://www.mightyoaksprograms.org/

https://www.marchordie.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Cowboys, not Eggheads. Home of the brave, not home of the fearful. The world needs more cowboys and fewer eggheads. We're everywhere podcasts are found. So tell your fellow cowboys. And let's keep the conversation alive on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Remember to subscribe, rate, review, and share. And now, Cowboys Not Eggheads with Sam Fisher.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Welcome back to Cowboys Not Eggheads. Today I'm sitting down with a man who's lived leadership under fire, literally. Jeremy Stallnecker is a former U.S. Marine Corps infantry officer and Iraq combat veteran and awarded the Navy accommodation medal with V for victor. But what interests me most isn't the medal, it's what came after. Jeremy is the CEO and co-founder of the Mighty Oaks Foundation, where he works with veterans wrestling with trauma, identity, and the hard transition back to civilian life, approaching it from a biblical perspective in a place of real world experience. He's also the voice behind the march or die philosophy, a mindset rooted in discipline, faith, and forward movement when quitting feels easier. Today we're not here to talk about accolades, we're here to talk about courage, resilience, leadership, and what it really means to keep marching. Jeremy, welcome to Cowboys, not Eggheads. Thanks, man. It's awesome to be with you. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, I uh Jeremy, to to let you know, I used to when I ran a business, if somebody applied and they were a veteran, if they were a Marine, because you're always a Marine, they were right. Uh I learned this from my dad. He said just automatically hire them. So that's that's the regard that I have for Marine Corps.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Now I'm sure there are many Marines you know that you may not hire yourself, but uh yeah, I was just gonna say I I hope they did good for you because uh I've known a couple guys.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

They did, they did. Um, but um thank you for your service to our country, um, and thank you for what you do for veterans. It's it's it's really, really important and uh look forward to having a great conversation today. Uh Jeremy, when's the last time your your courage cost you something that uh uh that cost you something personally?

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Yeah, and that's a big question. Um, you know, from where I sit, my job is to run an organization that serves veterans. We have programs all over the country. So there are things happening all of the time. And in leadership, kind of in the seat that I sit in, there are a lot of opportunities for me to make the decision. I'm either going to do the best hard thing. I'm going to deal with a situation or a person, uh, whatever's going on because I need to, or do the less best easy thing, which is just let it ride and just let it go. And I think the reason that I have friction in those moments is because there's always a cost to doing the right hard thing. Um, it may be a cost in friendship. Sometimes it is, you know, particularly in a nonprofit like ours. A lot of the people that we work with have been with us for a long time. They've given their heart and soul to what we do, and you have to have a hard conversation. And sometimes you have to let people go. And um man, it's super difficult. And you go through that process of thinking, well, I'll just let it go. But that would be the easy thing. The harder thing, the right thing, is knowing that I'm gonna do this, but there is going to be a cost, and it's gonna be a relationship cost. Um, unfortunately, that happens a lot in you know, kind of corporate or business or whatever, nonprofit leadership.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Yeah, it does. And and and even personally, sometimes that's the hard, I mean, it's it's it's hard to let people go is one of the hardest things on earth.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Um yeah, I I always say it'd be a lot easier if I didn't like the people I work with, right? Because then it's like, yeah, I don't want you here anyhow. But that's that's that's the cost. The cost is I'm losing a personal relationship.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

That's those are the hardest ones for me to let go. I mean, I've experienced that here recently, last couple years. A close friend, a mentor of mine moved, and um, you know, it I I absolutely like this person, and and and it's it's hard. It's it it's it's it's challenging for sure. Um you know, you've led Marines and now you're you're you're leading hurt veterans, you know, hurting veterans. What's the difference between um authority in the Marine Corps and real leadership in what you do today?

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. And I think this is where a lot of veterans get lost in the transition process. We look at rank, rate, uh, job, billet, the, the, the, the place that we are serving. And there is authority that comes with that, but it's mandated authority. It's authority because you have the rank, you have the rate, you have the position, and you transition away from that. You leave the military, you leave the first responder community, whatever that is, and you leave that so-called authority behind. And leadership is understanding that if people have to follow me, uh, that is not the same thing as being a leader. There's one thing to do leadership. It's one thing to do leadership. I can fulfill a role that I have, it's another thing to be a leader. And as people transition from one role to the other, they have to understand that leadership is about serving the people that you have authority over, people that have been brought into your life. And so authority and leadership should not be conflated. It shouldn't be confused that one is the other. It's not. The people that do well transitioning through the various stages of life are people that get that. But leadership is saying, what do I have available to me for the benefit of those that I lead? What resources, what opportunities, what influence do I have that I can leverage on the behalf of the people that I lead, that I serve? How can I take them from where they are to where they need to be? How can I make them better? And that is really to me the essence of leadership. Authority is something very, very different that can be bestowed upon a person, that can be earned because you started the thing and now people have to follow you. Authority is very different than leadership. And getting that right will pave the way to good transitions from one phase of life to another.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

You bet. 100% agree. Um what you know, you you work around a lot of uh a lot of men, um, and women, obviously, but but what what what do you think most men get wrong about resilience? Yeah. I mean, is resilience toughness or is it something else?

SPEAKER_02 6:56

It is something else. There's a there's a quote that I love. Um a book was written by uh a guy, his moniker, his title was Lord Moran. Lord Moran was Winston Churchill's personal physician, uh, beginning in World War II, or kind of just prior to World War II, but he was with Winston Churchill all the way into uh the early 60s when Churchill passed away. So he's with him for a long time. Um and in the middle of the war, for whatever reason, he decided to write a book. And he wrote a book called The Anatomy of Courage. It's a great book. I encourage everyone to go and read it. Um, The Anatomy of Courage. And it was his look as a physician, as a surgeon, it was his look at what today we would call post-traumatic stress. So that didn't have that name at the time, but that's what he was examining and trying to figure out. And he went back to when he was a physician in World War I. He was actually stationed with soldiers in the trenches of World War I. And in the process of that, he observed that there are daily bombings, there are these threats to life. All of these things happen. And some people will encounter what at the time they called shell shock. They just can't take it anymore. Uh, there are different degrees of shell shock. It's what, again, today we'd call post-traumatic stress. So there are those who responded that way, uh, having an emotional, nervous breakdown. And again, we've looked at that a lot since then, but that's how he he looked at it. They break down. And then there are those who, in the same exact situation, same exact circumstance, they continue to act courageously. They go out into the firefight when there's a firefight to be had, they uh function well, they get through that that time, however long it is, they get to that time in a good way. So, what's the difference? And this is where the title came from the anatomy of courage. What is the anatomy of courage? What makes someone courageous? He breaks that down throughout the book, but in the beginning of the book, he makes this statement. I observed, so he's watching people, some are doing well, some not so well. I observed that a man of character and peace is a man of courage in war. A man of character and peace is a man of courage in war. And he went on to explain, and this is a big part of the book, he went on to explain that the person who is mentally prepared, who is in the sense of character, they put the right things in, they know who they are, they have the support systems around them, all those things. They are prepared. We might say it this way they've predecided who they are before the bombs drop, before the difficulty comes into their life. Those are the people that move through it in a great way. And I think that illustrates so well what resilience is and what it requires. Resilience is having the ability to bounce back. And this is very simple, right? A clinician would give us a larger breakdown, but basically, what is resilience? To be resilient means you have the ability to bounce back. You know where you're going. Difficulty comes into your life, you may even get knocked down. It can be hard and overwhelming, but when it does, you're able to get back up, recenter, refocus on whatever your true north is and keep moving forward. Well, how do you get there? You get there by predeciding. You get there by putting the right things in, by building yourself into a person of character, by understanding who you are and where you're going prior to the difficulties coming into your life. Too many people, too many men are trying to figure it out on the other side of getting knocked down. And they can get back up. It requires a lot of help. Um, our program really honestly is focused primarily on that end, on helping people get back up who didn't prepare for the fall that they were uh going to take. But to be a resilient person means I've made the right decisions, I've pre-decided, I know what I'm gonna do when I fall, when I get hurt, when I get knocked down, I'm putting the pieces in that need to be there so that I can continue forward. And I think a lot of men get that wrong. They think it's toughness. They think it's simply being strong, they think it's grinding it out. And there is a world of social media influencers that would tell us that's what it's all about. And listen, you have to be mentally strong, you have to be focused, you have to be willing to grind it out. All of those things are true, but that doesn't make you more or less resilient. It just is a tool that you can use to keep moving forward when things get hard.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

I think what you're talking about is uh the spiritual battle. That's exactly right. I know that's exactly right. So use biblical principles and so forth and healing some of these guys, but uh that's what came to my mind is um I'm a I'm a CrossFit idiot. And uh, but my my coach once described Do your joints do your joints still work or are they do, but you have to there's a lot outside of CrossFit you have to do to take care of those joints, but it's good. I mean, you know, my internal organs are outstanding. But um anyway, my coach once said that the CrossFit is a practical battle or practical application of the spiritual battle. And that always resonated with me because it's a it is about getting up, and uh, because that thing, that that thing will knock you down. And I just I don't know if you're David Goggins guy. I am, I'm a I'm a gay David Goggins freak, but just a couple of days ago I saw I mean I've seen thousands of his videos, but yeah, he was speaking at a seminar and a and a gentleman asked him, What can I leave my son? And Goggins just went into this thing where he's like, When you get get knocked down, get up and get up fast. And I just that word fast really resonated with me as well. Um, and so you know Goggins is kind of a grinded out kind of guy, but but there's more to Goggins than that. He understands that you've got to change your mindset to be prepared because life is going to knock you down regardless of where you're at. It's how, you know, are you are you gonna lay there or are you gonna get up fast? And I think um right, I don't know, those are the two things that came to my my mind in your eloquent answer there. Um, you know, yeah, you're fighting a spiritual battle, understand that, and then get up fast, you know, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Yeah. It it's it really is having clarity around the actual fight, the actual battle. So knowing what you're doing and why, and then recognizing there are tools that can help you to move forward when the when the battles come, right? And so, so yes, to your point, it is a spiritual battle. There is a very real spiritual force, uh, whether you know people want to acknowledge that or not. I don't know how you could look around our world and not acknowledge that. Um, but there are very real spiritual influences that want to prevent us from being fully who God created us to be. And in the process of that, often it's a lack of identity. I don't know who I am. This is why I would say, as a Christian and through our program, uh, I would say you need to learn to identify with that which does not change, with God who is outside of space and time. Your job may change, your role may change, your relationships may change. Uh, God doesn't change. And so we identify with God. We identify with what Jesus did for us. So that's where I would start with a clear identity and understanding there is a spiritual war. Well, why is that important? Because we need to understand that there's more at stake than just what we can see and maybe get our minds around, that God has a purpose for us, that He created us to do something important and to accomplish something important. And if we're not careful, we can get so wrapped up in the world around us and the brokenness and the hurt and the challenges and the difficulties and the traumas of the past, the rest of it, that we don't fully live out what we were created to be and created to do. So we in his image and we have to understand that first. So then you look at tools. Okay, how do I do that? Well, I put the you know, the spiritual pieces in place. I know who I am, I understand that. I'm rooted in um a clear theology or understanding of who God is and my place in the world. So that's the tool. I have the right community around me, so I have people that can help me get back up when I get knocked down. I'm not waiting to get knocked down to find people that can help me. I'm I'm plugged into a great community, uh, hopefully a community of like-minded people. And then I regularly, and to your point, regularly do hard things, whether it's CrossFit or something else. I trained jujitsu, uh, I run ultramarathons a couple times a year, right? I do not because I'm good at any of those things, but because the process of grinding, between your ears, it's a mental process. You're exactly right. And I know, look, there's nothing you can throw at me that's harder than something I've already done. So I'm gonna get back up. I have I have trained my mind and my body and my systems to have the response that when I get knocked down, I get back up. And because I've already put the right spiritual pieces in place and I've got the right community around me, and I've had the right thoughts, and I've made the right decisions, all of that works together for what purpose to help me to fulfill what God created me to be. And so it all works together, but it's understanding there are tools, and there is the goal or the mission. I think sometimes we get that mixed up where I like I like Goggins, I get a lot of inspiration from him. I think some people take what he says, though, and they make discipline the goal or discipline the target. That that's not the target, it's a tool that helps you to get to the target, which is continuing forward and accomplishing your God-given purpose.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Yes, agree a hundred percent. Um let's get back into leadership a little bit here. Um, what belief do you hold about leadership that would make some people uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Well, I alluded to it when we started talking, but um I wrote a book on leadership and and the struggle I had with leadership, and the reason I wrote the book was because I came out of this military culture. I was an infantry officer. So I would argue I went to the best leadership schools in the world. Um, I went to officer candidate school for the Marine Corps. Uh, there's another school to follow on for all Marine Corps officers called the basic officer course. It's six months long. Every Marine Corps officer goes to that school. And then from there you go to your MOS school, the school that teaches you how to do your job. I was an infantry officer, so I went to 10 weeks of infantry officer course, which is focused on learning how, understanding how to lead Marines in combat. That's the only purpose of that school. For 10 weeks, you go through that. Then I had the opportunity to lead Marines through normal deployment cycles, then leading Marines in combat. So I felt like I had been trained to lead. I thought I understood what leadership was. Leadership is confidence, leadership is being the loudest guy in the room, leadership is being the guy who says we're going over there. Leadership is being that guy. Leadership is also tied to rank. Leadership has all of these components to it. So I understood that. I left the Marine Corps and transitioned into full-time ministry. And that's a whole story in and of itself. And in the transition into ministry, I got I became very frustrated, which led to anger, which led to a lot of problems. I had to have people help me work through. But a big challenge I had in that process was I thought I understood leadership. And I was confused why those same principles of be loud and be obnoxious and you know, scream, I know the way that we're supposed to go, didn't work in a church setting with a bunch of volunteers. So I had to step back and go, okay, well, then what is leadership? Well, in the church world, people know this. In the church world, there's this concept called servant leadership. Some would call it spiritual leadership. And so I got every book I could on those topics. Some are very helpful, some I still read today. But as I read them, I started to come to the conclusion that what a lot of Christian authors and influencers call spiritual leadership or servant leadership is really the same thing I was doing in the Marine Corps, but now you attach God to it. So I defined it this way, and this is not fair to a lot of people. I know that. There are a lot of great leaders in ministry. Um, but but the conclusion I came to in that moment was a lot of this spiritual leadership is manipulation, but you attach God to it. So now you can get God to be responsible for getting those people to do what you want them to do anyhow, right? I want you to do this, but I'm kind of couching it in spiritual language, so you think God wants you to do that. So then I'm I'm in I'm in between these two things. So I'm like, well, this doesn't seem right, and this doesn't work. So what do I do? And I worked through that for a long time, and then the the book that kind of came out of that was just me trying to process it and understand it. That was a really long intro to your very simple question. Here's what I settled on. I mean, um so that that's what brought me to this, and here's where I settled. Um I settled on a definition that for me, leadership is taking people from where they are to where they need to be. Leadership is taking people from where they are to where they need to be. As I mentioned in the beginning, it's using every resource, opportunity, the leverage I have, the relationships I have, whatever I have, for the benefit of the people that I lead. It's not about manipulating them to get what I want. It's not about using them to accomplish some goal that I have. It has nothing to do with me. Now, in a corporate sense, in a you know, workplace environment and other environments, there may be a larger goal. We need to do this together to accomplish whatever the goal or the mission is of the business or whatever. But it's not about me as the leader, it's about you as the person I have the opportunity to lead. How can I take you from where you are right now and help you to get to where you really need to be? Now, the caveat with that is accomplishing that looks different in every environment. So in the military, my job was the same. It just looked different. There were different tactics, techniques, and procedures. That's what we call in the military, different ways to accomplish that. In my family, there are different ways to accomplish that. In ministry, different ways to accomplish that in a business, different techniques to accomplish that. But fundamentally, a leader is someone that recognizes my job is not to get what I want from people. My job is to invest everything that I have in the people God has placed into my life to lead them so that at the end of the day, they're better off than they would have been if they didn't have a relationship with me. Um, that's not revolutionary. People talk about that. I just don't think functionally many people believe it or try to exercise it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Um, so you've talked about the two d dual roles you've had being combat leader versus a pastor. It sounds like to me, maybe the pastor maybe tested your character more.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

I always say that I've done combat and I've done ministry, and combat was way easier. The hierarchy of the military, if it's right, is extremely helpful. It exists for a reason. There's clarity around who's in charge, who's responsible, who do who does what. That's wonderful. The mission, if done right, is clear. Now there may be chaos around that mission, but you know, we talk about end state. Um, I remember the first schools I was in in the Marine Corps, we would talk about where do you want to be when this fight is over? You know, what is the end state? So the mission may be get to the place, but the end state, the actual goal is to accomplish, you know, X. So what is that? You know what that end state is. So it's very clear. You find yourself then in a ministry environment where so much is not clear. Um, you're working with people that are volunteering. So that's one thing. They don't have to do what you tell them to do. So there's a, you know, this motivation and inspiration, and you're trying to mix it all together, right, to help people understand why they should do things. So there's that. There is just the ambiguous nature of so much of what happens in ministry. The Bible is clear, the truth is relevant. It's not those things, but functionally, how a ministry or how a church works can be really hard to navigate because there just aren't clear left and rights. And so, yeah, it's it's been much more challenging for me at least to work in the ministry environment and now in the nonprofit environment than in the in the military environment. Maybe not as dangerous physically, but but um yeah, just harder to navigate for sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

What was your lowest private moment after Iraq? Not physically, but internally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Well, I can think of a few. Uh one of the ones that you know I've talked about, and and it took me a while to struggle through. The first, uh, so our Marine Infantry Battalion, 1-5, 1st Battalion, 5th Marines, we were the first Marine Infantry Battalion into Iraq. Um, so the war started on March 19th, 20th. We were the Marine Infantry Battalion that advanced up the center axis, breached the berm, went into the southern objective, secured that objective. The first KIA of the war was one of our lieutenants, Lieutenant Shane Childers. And um man, I can't even describe the the that whole night, that whole event. You train, you prepare, you do all the things. Marines always perform well, but there's a real kind of like surreal sense when the tracers are now coming your direction. I've been in a lot of ranges. Tracers always go one direction. If something flies over your head, everything stops, right? That's a bad situation. Well, now you're in this environment where the tracers are going both directions. Uh, a lot is happening. You're seeing things that you've only seen on movies, you you've you've been told that you will experience. Um, so all of that's happening. We began preparing early in the day. We crossed the line of departure, you know, around midnight, went into the country, we're there the next full day. So we're up for several days now, a couple days now. So you're physically exhausted, emotionally, you've been dealing with things that just, you know, they they offend your sense of right and wrong. Uh, you're doing your job, you're trying to figure things out because the battlefield is changing, the situation is not exactly what you thought it would be. So you've got all of these things going on. And then over the radio, you hear that uh, you know, Lieutenant Childers, who who was a friend, um was shot and killed. So all of that happened at the same time. And first time I had been in combat, first time any any of any of us had been in combat. So first time in combat, first time dealing with you know the live nature of combat and the death that goes along with combat on the enemy side, and now we have one of our guys killed. Um I remember going to kind of after all of that, so probably day three, we were called to our battalion commander's vehicle, and uh he gave us kind of the next mission. Here's what we're doing next, here's where we're going next, here's what's happening next. And so I I think, well, at least for me, I expected him to start with, hey, Shane was killed, we know that. Um, talk about it for a minute and move on. Didn't even address it. He just went right into the next mission and the next thing. And and there was a moment, and and I can picture it in my mind, I've talked to him about it since then, but there was a picture, I can picture it in my mind, a moment where it looked like his face, on his face, he recognized like everyone was waiting for him to say something about Lieutenant Childers, about Shane. And so he stopped. So he gave us the mission, this is what we need to do. He stopped, and and he said something like this. Um he said, Look, I know Shane was killed, and that hurts. That's something that all of us have to deal with. And we will take a time, we will take the necessary time when this is over to memorialize him, to talk about him, and to grieve. But now is not that time. There are a lot of people that need us to do our job. There are a lot of people that will get hurt if we don't do our job. And so we're not forgetting what happened. We'll come back to that. Um, but we now have a mission to accomplish. We lost other Marines along the way. This was the very beginning. This was the first time we had experienced that. But I remember walking away from that, like almost betrayed. Like it just was very hard for me to reconcile. Um since then, man, I've written about this, I've talked about this, but what an incredible leadership lesson. That was a leader doing the hard thing. You talk about courage and leadership, doing the hard thing to look strong leaders in the face and say, I know we just experienced a deep loss, but we have a job to do, and if we don't do that job, there's a price to pay. But the way I received it in the moment was very different than that. It was very hard for me to reconcile. Uh again, so many other things going on, but that was a I don't know if I would define that as a low moment, but a very difficult moment that I had to move past.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

But I mean, I've never been in war. I don't I couldn't pretend to relate to what you're saying. But I, you know, you know, you watch the movies and you know, and a few good men, I think there were some really good lessons in that movie. And you know, we follow orders or people die. And that's that was kind of what that guy was telling you. Like, we don't have time. Right now, is we keep we don't have the time for this, or other people are gonna die. And that's that's kind of the way the Marine Corps is set up. I mean, it's like next, you know. Um, but from an emotional standpoint, I I mean that's that's a big ask for anybody. It it it really is, and then that's which leads me to what you're doing now is you're dealing with people that are hurt from the war, that are healing from those experiences. And you know, I know that you work with the PTSD from a big biblical perspective. Um how do you how do you talk about faith what without using it as a band-aid?

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah, well, that's man, that's a great way to frame that because faith should not be a band-aid. I've talked to um, well, I'll say one. I talked to one psychologist, psychiatrist, and um what she said to me was add faith to what you're doing if it if it's helpful. Uh, but let's start over here. Let's start with the clinical approaches to you know the various things that we do. She said, I believe faith should be kept in your back pocket. It's something you should have access to, but not something you should lead with. Well, I disagree with that because that's using it as a band-aid or a medication or just a clinical. And so I believe and we believe, we talk about uh therapies and you know, the clinical approaches to a lot of the things that we deal with, but that has to be after you establish a foundation of faith. Because if you do all of those other things and you don't know who you are or why you're here, what is my purpose? Where am I going? Why should I have hope? If you haven't answered those questions first, then the rest of it is going to fall short. Yeah, can't help anybody. I mean, you can't. And so that's where we start. And we start with really that conversation around identity. Who am I? So one of the struggles that you're having, and one of the reasons you're self-medicating or you're taking prescription medication that numbs you out, or you're getting involved in these things, is because you don't know clearly who you are right now. And if you don't know who you are, you haven't identified this is who I am, then you don't know why you're here. So you don't have a clear identity, you also then don't have a clear purpose. And if you don't have a clear purpose, then there really is no hope because nothing gets better. I don't even know why I'm here. There's nothing that I look down the road and think this is going to get better, this is going to make this situation better. So without clarity around my purpose, there's no clarity around, or no clarity around my identity, there's no clarity around my purpose. And if there's no purpose, there's no hope. And if there's no hope, then um I either need to just numb myself out, dive into as much enjoyment as I possibly can until you know I spin out, or, and a lot of people make this decision, just end my life, because there's really nothing here. And so we start with that conversation around who am I? Out of uniform, out of that job, who am I? And then what does that mean? And we use a biblical framework. This isn't just us telling you what we think you should do. This is from us, God the creator. So he created. So if he created, then there's design. And if there's design, we need to understand what that is. What did he create us to do? How did he create us to act? How did he create us to think? How did he create us to feel? How did he create us to interact in relationships? And so we just walk through that and just go, this is what the Bible says about how you should function in this world. One thing that makes this really accessible, I think, to the students that come through our program, though, because you could go to a Christian program, you could go to a church, you could go to a lot of places to get the same information. But one of the things that makes this accessible is that every instructor in our program, everyone who leads a breakout, a team, started as a student. And so they all came through as students, and then they come through a long process, about a year-long process of leadership training. And then they're standing in front of a class of people with a similar background to them. So now someone's sitting on the couch or sitting in sitting there, they're listening to someone talk who was in combat, was in the military, was a first responder, whatever the case. So there's a shared background or shared experience. And that person standing up there is not a pastor, they're not a clinician, they're not a doctor, they're, they're, they're none of those things. They're a person just like the people they're talking to. And before they teach a class, we require them, as part of the process, to tell their story. So they get up. This is who I am. These are the things I did, the struggles that I had. I ended up here. This is what I learned while I was here. I don't have it all figured out, but I know where you are because I've been there. And I just want to help you walk this out, and we're going to get there together. So it becomes very much a peer-to-peer, let's get there together environment. And so the conversation around faith is very organic because it's not, again, a pastor trying to convince people that faith is important. It's someone standing in front of the class saying, I tried everything else, and you guys have probably tried everything else, and something was missing, and I found the missing piece. The missing piece was that foundation of faith, and we're going to talk about what that looks like. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Um what's the difference between this is a for somebody who's not been through war combat, I almost feel guilty asking this question. But what's the difference between trauma and excuse?

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Oh, that's a great question. I talk about this a lot. So um here's how I say it there's a difference between a reason and an excuse. This is this is what how I kind of frame that often. There's a difference between a reason and an excuse. What happens often is that people will excuse their bad behavior because of a real thing, because of a reason. Well, it's okay to have a reason, but it's not okay to excuse bad behavior. So it's okay to say I feel this way because of the trauma that I've experienced, or you know, whatever's gone on in my life that's brought me this place. That's a reason I'm angry all the time. I, you know, I'm an ass to be around, like whatever, right? Like, okay, well, there are reasons, but those reasons never excuse bad behavior. It's never okay to act in a way that hurts other people, that you know, does all these things. So two things can be true at the same time. Yes, there's a reason, but there's never an excuse for bad behavior, which should lead to the next thing. Let's figure out how to address the reason and move forward in a good way.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah. If a man says, I'm fine, but you know he's not, what are the tells? I mean, you've seen I'm sure you've seen it.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Yeah, well, I mean the easiest, yeah, the easiest answer to that is just withdrawing. It is someone that does not engage in meaningful conversations, that doesn't really have meaningful relationships, uh, that is withdrawn, that is isolated. That's that's probably the easiest answer to that question. Um, it what's funny though is I think as men, we have an intuition about that. We know when a guy is is putting up a facade, is not addressing things that are real. It's funny. So you say you come from the CrossFit community, and you know, in the jiu-jitsu community is very similar. Like you know, the joke is the joke is always like, how do you know uh someone trains CrossFit because they tell you, right? Well, the the joke is the same for jujitsu. How do you know someone trains jujitsu because they're gonna tell you? Right? Well, those communities are very immersive, and I think a lot of people find you know tremendous relationships there, a great community there, and people that encourage them. And so they're very helpful in that sense. And a lot of hurting broken people, particularly men who are struggling with trauma and just difficulty in their lives, find themselves in those communities because you can go deep, you can grind, you can hurt, you can build relationships with people. But if you really take a step back and look at what's happening, it's extremely superficial, which is crazy that you can spend 10 hours a week with someone. I mean, in jujitsu, 10 hours a week rolling on the ground with someone, you know, whatever. It's very close physically. You you do know about people's lives, kind of. You're sort of involved in what's happening, but nothing real is happening. No real conversations, uh, not addressing anything substantial in most cases. So we have an intuition for that. And I think I think it's trust your intuition. So this man, this is something I've really had to learn because I'm I'm kind of a like live and let live kind of person, like naturally. This is not my like I okay, if you want to do whatever you want to do, it doesn't matter. It does matter, but I'm not gonna dive into your stuff, right? Well, trust your intuition. If you feel like someone is withdrawing or someone's not having a real conversation about something, pull them out of their environment, take them to coffee. Hey, let's get some coffee and talk and come up with a reason. You know, I like what you do in business, I'd love to talk about that. Whatever. Come up with a reason and just develop a genuine relationship with someone. And a lot of times that will lead to those deeper conversations. But um, yeah, there are signs, people I isolating, people pulling back, people unwilling to have conversations about anything that is, you know, emotionally or spiritually or relationally deep in any way. Um, a lot of high-performing people are are people who are really hurting, which is really interesting. Um, you see this so much in in the ultra-marathon community where people who can grind for you know 20 hours, um, I mean, hard, strong people are so broken and so hurt, and they're trying to cover that up with the other stuff that they're doing, but they won't ever talk about anything real. Um, yeah, trust your intuition on that one and and go out of your way to just develop a real relationship. Don't back someone into a corner, but just develop a real relationship with them.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Yeah. Um that was my favorite question and answer in the entire podcast so far. That was awesome. Um, so let's shift in a little bit into your march or die philosophy. Then the title of this podcast is going to be called March or Die. So, what does march or die really mean? Is it discipline? Is it faithfulness? Is it movement? Is it obedience? Uh explain, explain it to me like I'm a 19-year-old Marine. What does march or die mean?

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Yeah, well, that's why I like the phrase march or die because uh it's it's marine proof. So I'll tell you where it came from. I checked in as a young second lieutenant to Charlie Company, 1st Battalion, 5th Marines, is a rifle company. Great job. I loved leading there. It was fun. I learned a lot. But there was a motto. They had a motto, it was on a t-shirt. Every marine unit has a t-shirt with a motto on it. And uh, for some reason, there's always a skeleton. I don't know what all that means, but but the motto for Charlie Company 1.5 was march or die. And I remember reading that. I'd I'd been, you know, been there for a day or something. I saw them like, that's brilliant, because it makes so much sense. You can stay where you are and die, or you can march, you can take the next step. Um, I learned later that, like a lot of things in the Marine Corps, that was ripped off of the French Foreign Legion, right? So they didn't create it, they just stole it from somewhere, which is kind of marine, uh, a marine thing.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Um, but I always loved that saying France military made that up, but okay. I I digress, right? Yeah, it was stole it.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Um it was it was a foreign legion, so I mean, not really French, right? But um, so I always loved the saying. Well, fast forward several years, I found myself uh, you know, in a pretty intense firefight on a bridge in Iraq, and that's what I write about, and I draw from that five principles of resilience. But the fundamental principle is that march or die principle. We we got into this firefight, things didn't unfold exactly as we had hoped. Um, it was an ambush situation. We dealt with one enemy unit, we had to push to the top of the bridge to um deal with the mortars that were falling around us. It's kind of a big story, lots happening. And so I pushed our unit up on top of this bridge, and it got us to a place where we could see the enemy, but it also put us right in the middle of the X. This is where they wanted us because it was a pre-planned target. So there were these mortar positions where they were trying to push us to was right where I pushed us to. And the mortar rounds fell around us. It went from bad to worse, and it was getting worse very, very quickly. And it's crazy what you think about right in those moments, but for whatever reason, that that stupid motto popped into my mind, march or die. Like, shoot, like we stay here, we die. That's gonna happen. It's inevitable. I mean, it's just a matter of minutes, or we can just get off the X, get to the next place, and address the enemy. And um, it happened that fast. The Marines moved fast. Obviously, we didn't die on top of that bridge. We moved to the road, dealt with that enemy, and came out on the other side of that. Um, but when that was over, I obviously spent a lot of time thinking about that. And I've thought about that story, you know, probably thousands of times since then. But that is, to me, like the most basic principle for living a resilient life. You find yourself in a difficult situation. Now, it may be traumas of the past that are holding you back, it may be an obstacle in front of you, something that happened you didn't expect, a relationship, a financial situation, doesn't matter. But there's something that's providing resistance. We'll call that the enemy. There's resistance. Resistance to what? Forward movement. Well, in those moments, you have to make a decision. Are you going to stay where you are and die? And I have to define die. This doesn't mean physical death, although some people make that decision. I can't go forward anymore, so I'll just end my life. That's what I thought. When I talk about that, it's laying down, it's giving up, it's raising the white flag. It is that spiritual and emotional and relational deadness that a lot of people have, right? And we know these people. These are guys who've given up. Instead of engaging with their families, they play video games or look at porn or do whatever. They're not engaged in anything meaningful. Their family might describe them as emotionally distant. They're going to work, they're doing the stuff, but they're not accomplishing anything. They're dead. But that's a decision they've made. Life got hard. They made a decision. Well, the next or the better decision is to what? March. Get the hell out of there. Just put get out of there. Put one foot in front of the other. And the word march is so important because when you march, you don't exactly know where you're going. Most of the time. You don't know how long you're going to be doing this. You can't see the end from here, maybe. But what you do know is that in order to march, I have to put one foot in front of the other and then do that again and then do that again and then do that again. And so it's not about figuring it all out. It's not about understanding the complete combat environment that you find yourself in. It's about saying, I'm not going to stay here and die. So I'm going to keep moving forward. And you ask, what is it? It's all of those things. It's spiritual, it's faith, it's trusting God. It's just what we talked about earlier, getting up, and I'm going to keep moving forward. It's just saying, as long as I'm drawing breath, I want to live a meaningful life. And the only way to do that is one step at a time. And you just keep moving forward. And it's amazing. You know, I've described it this way: persistence is a superpower. Um, victory doesn't go to the perfect, it goes to the persistent. And the reason is because there are so few persistent people in the world. Yeah. You don't have to be the smartest, you don't have to be the most talented, you don't have to be the one that has it all figured out. Just be the one that doesn't quit. Exactly. Just keep moving forward. Exactly. And if you do that, you will find victory on the other side of that. So that's the philosophy. There are a lot of principles, a lot of things that I built around that and talk about my podcast. That's what we talk about, how to move forward when life is falling apart. But that is the principle. If you know nothing else about what I talk about, other than that, that's all you really need. Just keep moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

I love the resistance thing, you know, and I love, you know, it's life is conflict. And, you know, I had an earlier podcast that of a dear friend of mine and mentor, it's actually a political leader, but he's he would, you know, I was very young when I heard him say this, but he said, and it's always stuck with me, and that is uh without friction, there is no movement. So the friction is just a natural thing that occurs. Yeah. You're either gonna stay, you're gonna lay there and do nothing, or you're gonna move. And that's mean, yep, it's it's all it's all tied together.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Yeah, and that is the whole thing. But you know, a big part of it, and that's why conversations like this are so important. A big part of it is recognizing what you just said. Because so many of us, we think, I'm the only one who's ever been through this, I'm the only one who's ever experienced this, no one else knows what it's like to feel this way or to do this thing. This is unusual, this is out of the norm. Like, no, man, like this is life. This is life. I talk to my young adult kids, and sometimes they'll talk about you know, family stuff or whatever, work stuff. I'm like, yeah, welcome to being an adult. Like, this is this is what it is, and that's okay, but just recognize that and make a decision that you'll keep moving forward in spite of it.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

I agree. So now we're gonna flip the coin a little bit. March or die, we just talked about the bravado of it, and you know, we just pumped ourselves up. So now I'm gonna bring us back down here for a second. Is there is there and I my my answer to this is absolutely not, but I'm interested in your taking this. Is there danger in the phrase march or die becoming toxic? A favorite word out there these days, toxic. Is there danger in that phrase becoming toxic?

SPEAKER_02 47:16

Can I ask me to absolutely expound on that a little bit? What do you mean by by that?

SPEAKER_01 47:21

How does it become can grit become denial? Can toughness become avoidance? Yep. Okay, yeah, great. So this goes back to my answer for the record is hell no, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I would say absolutely not. In fact, if you're breathing, the only way to live a life of meaning and value is to keep marching forward. Life, like real life, not just breathing, not just occupying space, but real life is progress. It's progress. This is, man, I love to see, you know, people in their 80s and early 90s or whatever who check out books at the library and they're reading self-help stuff, and they're, you know, I know some folks like this at church, they'll be like, ah man, I just watched this documentary on this thing and I learned these things. Or I'll have I'll meet people in their you know late 80s, or I listen to your podcast, that was really helpful. I'm like, dude, that's crazy. Why? Because they've made a decision that as long as they're alive and as long as they're able to function, they're gonna keep moving forward. That is meaningful life. That's it. I do think I probably wouldn't use the word toxic, but certainly misplaced. If when people hear the phrase march or die, what they think that means is just keep grinding, try harder, get up earlier, do more. That is not even a little bit of what I'm suggesting. Because that leads into this idea that the discipline of the thing is the goal. Um, if I was just working harder, if I was just trying more, the reason, the reason my life is falling apart is because I'm a failure. And that that is what people can take away from that. Again, it's it's saying I need to maybe reach out to some people that can help me with this. I need to um put some pieces in place. Maybe I do need to grind. Maybe I know as I look at my life, I'm not trying hard enough, I'm not getting up early enough, uh, I'm not you know putting in enough hours, I'm spending too much time watching TV. So it's honest self-evaluation. It can be all of those things, but it's not the goal, it isn't just moving forward. The goal is moving forward in a meaningful way and accomplishing what God has set in front of you. And so um, I don't think it's toxic, but I think a lot of people, you know, we'll say someone said this to me the yesterday. Um they use that phrase manosphere, right? You look at the social media world and you see so much of the manosphere, which is is that it's just grind and grind and try harder. And you know, if you cared more, well, dude, there are so many guys who just have nothing left to give. And if you tell them that it's just about trying harder or the reason they failed is because they weren't doing enough, um, you might as well step on their throat while they're laying on the ground. Well, it goes that's not what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

It's about keeping this have a purpose, you know.

unknown 50:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

Anyone can grind, but if you don't, if you're grinding without purpose, why why are you grinding? I mean that's that is exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

That's exactly right. Yeah. And so I think if people hear that phrase, march or die, and it's it becomes that, like just grind. Um, that's that's not what I'm saying. But giving up, quitting, not grinding, that's not an option. But you're doing it for a reason. You're doing it because there's more to life than just staying where you are and being stuck.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

What does uh marching look like when you don't feel motivated? Because most people are waiting to feel ready. Like everybody's waiting for the, you know, they're waiting until New Year's or they're waiting until next week, or they're waiting this and that. But so what is what does marching look like when you don't feel motivated?

SPEAKER_02 51:06

Man, that is that's the the big question. Um it's taking the next step. Whether you feel motivated or not, if you're waiting to feel motivated, you'll never do anything difficult because that natural friction exists. We talked about that. Those obstacles, those uh challenges come into your life and they're present. And if you're waiting to feel like you need to move forward, you never will. If it's uh watching another video or listening to another podcast or reading another book, and that's what the thing that will motivate you, you'll be motivated today, and then you'll wake up tomorrow and feel a whole lot less motivated. You have to just make a decision and then follow through on your decisions. And that may be the very first step in marching is developing the character to just keep your word. I think often starting small is the answer. You know, it's funny, I was thinking about this this morning actually, um, when with people that that work out. And I've been talking to some people I'm trying to encourage to get into the gym. And and sometimes it's like, well, I don't want to go to the gym because I just don't have 90 minutes to devote to that or whatever. Well, then go and spend 15 minutes in the gym. Get up and drive to the gym, get out, check in, look at the equipment, walk around, go back to your car. Like, like that's a step. It's a really small step and it's a slow step, but it's just walk through the door. That's walk through the door. You don't have to do all the things. And that's what, again, what I love about marching. It's not about having the whole thing figured out, it's about just taking the next step. And maybe the next step for you is a small step. Maybe the next step for you is getting up 30 minutes earlier. Maybe the next step for you is cutting out sugar. Maybe the next step for you is reading your Bible for 10 minutes a day. Maybe the next step for you is setting up a date night with your spouse once a month. Take the next step, whatever the next step is, but don't wait till you feel like you want to do that. I think this is the difference. Um I wish I could remember who said this, and I can't even explain it right uh the way they did. But I think the difference between being a professional and being an amateur is exactly that. You want to be a professional, then you do the right thing even when you don't feel like it. Uh amateurs wait for motivation, and when they feel like it, they do it. You'll never do anything meaningful if you're waiting to feel like it. Now, thankfully, feelings come on the other side of doing the thing. Um, it's amazing how you go to the gym and say, I'm only gonna be here for 15 minutes, and you stay for an hour and a half, right? Um, motivation comes, but motivation follows doing the right thing. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Last question, sir. This has been a great discussion. I've really enjoyed it. Um if you could look at the 22-year-old version of yourself before Iraq and give him one sentence, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 54:10

I probably have paragraphs, not just one sentence. I I think probably the 22-year-old version of myself needed to um be a little more humble and needed to be connected to people in a real way that were further along than I was. And if I had had those people in my life early on, I would have avoided some real hardship. So be humble. Um a 22-year-old Marine Infantry officer is not known for his humility. Be humble and surround yourself with the right people who can help you move forward. Yep. Great, great advice.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

Uh, Jeremy, how do uh how do my listeners get a hold of you? Um, if if you're a veteran, I mean, basically, if you're a veteran in need and you are hurting and need someone to reach out to, I think uh you'd be a great, great step, a great first start here. How do how would someone get a hold of you? Where do we find you? And tell us about tell us where we get a hold of your and your podcaster and all that good jazz. Give us all your all your places to go.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

All right. Well, it's real simple. For me, um Jeremy Stolnecker on any social platform. It's all there. S-T-A-L-C-C-C-I-S-C-K-E-R. Of course, we'll have all this in the description. But that's it. And uh, you can find me, you know, on whatever social platform you like, and then from there you can learn about the podcast and the other things. Um, but probably the easiest starting point for those who are looking for help, whether it's resources or a program or whatever, is just Mighty Oaks programs. MightyOaks programs.org. That's our website. And from there, everything is linked out and everything's explained. So yeah, check it out. Um, no cost to the service member, first responder to attend the program, no cost for travel to get to the program. We do everything we can to eliminate any barriers and uh get you the help that you need. So please check it out.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

Great, that's awesome. I hope, I hope our listeners, if even if you're not a veteran yourself or you know somebody in need, maybe we can point them in the right direction. Jeremy, I really appreciate your time. Uh great conversation, and uh best of best of luck in your endeavors. You're you're doing you're doing big guys' work, and I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 56:20

Well, thank you. I appreciate the conversation and uh the time. Thanks for it.