Pain is Optional - with Special Guest Brandon Day

In this episode, Brandon Day shares his transformative journey from a championship athlete to a high-performance coach specializing in applied neuroscience and flow state training. Discover how understanding pain, the nervous system, and flow can unlock new levels of physical and mental performance.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Cowboys, not Eggheads. Home of the brave, not home of the fearful. The world needs more cowboys and fewer eggheads. We're everywhere podcasts are found. So tell your fellow cowboys. And let's keep the conversation alive on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Remember to subscribe, rate, review, and share. And now, Cowboys Not Eggheads with Stan Fisher.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Welcome back to Cowboys Not Eggheads, a podcast that was recently ranked top 5% in the world by listen notes. So we're pleased today to welcome Brandon Day into the top 5% of our podcast nation. Brandon was a just a short introduction. Brandon Day was a national championship football player at Carroll College, team captain, high-level competitor, and part of a program that ended up on the cover of Sports Illustrated. Actually, Brandon ended up on the cover of Sports Illustrated. And then, like a lot of athletes, the bill came due, chronic pain, lingering injuries, and the frustrating realization that all the traditional answers, physical therapy, chiropractic work, recovery protocols weren't actually solving the problem. That sent Brandon down a different road road, one that led him into the study of brain and of the brain and the nervous system and how much pain and performance is actually driven there. Today he's a high performance coach and the founder of what he calls the Neuroflow method, a system that is built around applied neuroscience and flow state training to help athletes, business owners, and high performers break through plateaus, eliminate pain, and unlock another level physically and mentally. He works with people who already operate at a high level but know that they've got another gear left. And uh he's got a belief that we're going to raise uh some eyebrows today, that pain might not be what we think it is, that in some cases pain might even be optional. And that's where Brandon had me at hello and hello to you, sir. Thanks for thanks for joining us. I appreciate it. Yeah, um, we're gonna get started fast and furious. We're not we're we're we're we're ready to roll here. I love it. You rock and roll. You were you were a championship athlete captain, sports illustrated cover, and then and then chronic pain shows up. What did that feel like? Not physically, but mentally. Mentally, what did that what did that do to you?

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yeah. It hurt, Sam. It hurt. No, yeah, that's uh great question. Uh in truth, I had chronic pain since um, I'd probably say since puberty, to be perfectly honest. You know, growing up, we didn't know what was going on, and it wasn't so bad that um I had to um miss games or practices very often. You know what I mean? So it was it was manageable. But it came to the point where I think a lot of people will resonate with this where you get you kind of just like accept it and the words that get thrown around, the stories that we tell ourselves, is that I just got bad knees. I just got weak ankles. Or yeah, I did that thing that one time, and now I got a bad back. And that was my mindset, and it was just kind of like, well, we just manage it. We'll put this cream on it, I'll um I'll do the physical therapy when I need to, um, and I'll just pound ibuprofen so I can play on Saturday. You know what I mean? Yeah. How many of us can resonate with that? And I say that because it is like, I mean, it it is optional, and that might sound weird to people that have been in pain for a long time. But I want to go back that far because I think manageable pain is kind of this insidious, sneaky little gremlin that so many people are dealing with that they don't need to, but they don't understand the the cost you know that it's that it's taking on your life. And when we get into like flow state, we talk about that that peak state of consciousness where we perform and we feel our best, pain is the ultimate flow blocker, and it doesn't take much. Like pain, what is pain really? It's just an action signal, it's a little like bell going off. Hey, hey, hey, pay attention, there's something wrong here, right? Right? Yep. And so when you're trying to get into a flow state and be at your best and like totally be absorbed and focused on the task at hand, that's the requirement for flow. That little pain, that little gremlin is enough to take you out of it.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

No, we're gonna get into flow state here in a little bit. It's a little woo-woo for this cowboy. So you're gonna, we're gonna it's very eggheadish. I'll break it down. And so that's why you're on. Um and I'm excited about that. The flow state. I mean, what the hell does that mean? We'll we'll we'll talk about it here in a minute. Um, and I am very I'm very interested in listeners, that's why I have him on. But we're gonna go we're gonna go back to your experience though. I mean, there, I mean, that there was a major point in your life here where you, you know, went went on this journey, so I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna examine that. I mean, what what was the mo what was the yeah, what was the point that you realized that this isn't gonna go away with the usual stuff?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Yeah. Well, it took, you know, probably over a decade of me beating my head against the wall, um, both literally and figuratively, because I did do that for a while when I was uh uh in college and smashing my head against other big humans, um, but also drinking a lot and partying and uh my affinity for heavy metal. So you're oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Head through some doors and you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Did we talk about that in the pre-interview? A little intense. Yeah, that's awesome. So there's a alpha alpha alpha alpha male linebacker. And what so what was your uh what was your pump up stuff in the locker? What got you going every time? What band? Because I'm a metalhead too.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Uh well, yeah, I I had the same I kind of varied up the playlist a little bit, but I always went out to um vicarious by tool. Hmm. Very good choice. Just give me chills just thinking about it. Well, you know that mountain that they're gonna crescendo.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Yeah. Well, it's the the the rhythm of that band is unbelievable. We're not gonna talk about tool very much here, but I don't know if you recently read that the guy that climbs the mountains or climbed that building, I can't remember his name. He's like the number one rock climber in the world. Is that what yeah, yeah. So he he he listened to he listened to Tool all the way up on that building. Nice. I mean, just amazing. Yeah, well, it's it's a rhythmic pattern. Talk about flow state, but we could that could be a whole different podcast. Exactly. You know a little bit more about flow state. We can talk about Danny Carey and Neil Peart, and we'd have lots of fun. But um Yeah, 100%. And again, at that point, music is a big part of flow, as you know. Yeah, yeah. It it yeah, a coach recently told me that I shouldn't pay attention to the music as much, but it's like, well, that then I shouldn't breathe air because it to me it's air. Um when I'm working out, it's it's it's it's air. Uh again, going back to that point, um what were you most afraid of losing? Uh your identity, performance, or the future?

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Um probably my identity more than anything. And I wasn't I didn't know that I was gonna lose that, but when when college football ended, that's that's what happened. I think a lot of athletes that reach some form of competitive level, it could be high school, it could be college, could be beyond. I don't really know. I think maybe it's individual and how much they actually tie that identity to their sport and how much weight they put on it, you know what I mean? And for me it was a lot, yeah. And I just didn't even realize it. Um but yeah, that was a big that was a big shift that I was not ready for, and it sent me down a pretty interesting path um and journey to figuring out what the heck like what now. Yeah, you know what I mean? And on top of that was the chronic pain. So, and the pain just you know, it got a little bit better. You know, I played with pain throughout college, um, and it was a big part of the reason why I chose very early on that I wasn't gonna pursue anything beyond that, um, even semi-pro or pro. And it was like, no, I don't, I don't, I don't think I want to do that. Like, I don't want to just live in pain all the time. And um, I kind of equated sports to pain in a weird way. It was like like football is what's causing my pain. And yeah, there were some bumps and bruises, of course. It's just part of the that's part of the game. But the chronic pain, like my knees always hurting, um, my back and my neck always always in pain. I kind of equated that. So I thought, oh, when I quit or when I'm done, that should just go away, right? Nope. So exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

So let's define, let's define pain real quick. I mean, to me, pain is my my listeners know what I think pain is. To me, pain is uh is like I want that to stop right now. Um, discomfort is every is the rest of you can fight through it. So to me, the only time I was in pain is when I got tased in uh in in law enforcement training. Like I want that to stop right now. So, what to you is define pain for for the listeners?

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah, I'm actually really glad you asked that question, and I would define it as the same. I tell my clients, pain is pain will take your breath away.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

It's like uh get hit hit in the back, getting hit in the uh imagine getting hit in the back, brought and not even blindsided with a baseball bat. It would it would knock it would knock the breath right out of you, it would be like, uh sure. And so that's the kind of stuff you were playing through, but you were able to manage it by ibuprofen or whatever. And um, so was it discomfort at that point or was it still pain? I mean, um I I'm curious because when you're playing, you're you know, well, this is part of the reward, this is fun. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah, no, it was discomfort. Okay, it was discomfort would be the but would be the correct term. Um, with uh sharp instances of pain every once in a while. But they would like resolve, you know, in a couple seconds or something, and then you'd continue on. Yeah, so that's why I didn't miss any games. I didn't I didn't really miss many practices um unless I was very inflamed or something, like my knee was all swollen up, then it'd be painful and I I couldn't I couldn't practice. But I actually didn't miss any games or any time because of pain or injury. So I was very lucky actually in that, but a lot of discomfort. And that's what like uh most chronic pain um is a more of a blanket term that includes discomfort. I would even include anxiety, autoimmunity, sure, fibromyalgia, um these kind of conditions that are more like chronic conditions. I kind of put them under the umbrella of pain, and that's when I first talked with somebody about this kind of stuff. But then as we go along and we get more into what's going on in the brain and how the nervous system works to protect us from insult, then I use the terminology of threat. Like these are threat responses or these per these are protective mechanisms, and they all kind of fit under the banner of threat. Right. Okay. Yeah. So that's that's what I shift the terminology to. But in the beginning, it's easier to talk about them all as a type of pain. Yep. Because in a way, they all are are the same kind of thing, they're signals that your brain is giving you to make you pay attention to something that is off. Yeah, something that's distract you or stop you.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Do you do you think most athletes are honest with themselves about pain, or are they just managing it?

SPEAKER_01 12:35

No. No, I don't. And that comes from my own personal experience with myself and teenagers.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

I see it too. Um, I'm in a CrossFit gym, and I see it. Oh, yeah. I see it. It's like no, it's it's like it's a it's a dark little secret nobody talks about, but everybody goes home just like yeah, wretchedly and pay. I don't because I don't know prosecutors are gluttons for punishment. Oh, idiots, and they're total massive. Well, we're yeah, I mean, we're the football players that that had the career that have nowhere else to go, or in my case, a football player that didn't have a career that had nowhere else to go. But um so you don't think you don't think athletes are managing their they're they're not managing their pain, they're just they're not they're just not honest with themselves.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

They're yeah, part it's partly that. It's partly a a conditioned response. They've learned to quote unquote manage it, but my view is is that that's not serving you, and that you would be better off to actually understand what's causing the threat that's leading to the discomfort. And if you remove that, then everything in your life will get better and your performance will obviously improve. It's like removing the governor on your car. Remember when they they used to have a governor on a car, like you rent a car and it's like well, they have them on golf courts, so you don't have kids driving around golf course 50 miles an hour.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Yeah, it's bogus. Let the golf cards free. Yeah, figure it out on it. Yeah, but that's that's what happens. That's the job of your nervous system. Here's the thing like you probably know this already, and you maybe have seen this and witnessed this in some people that you've been around, or heard stories at least. We've all heard the stories of like the 85-year-old grandmother who lifts the car off of her toddler when they get in an accident, right? How does that happen? Well, it happens because she's had that strength in her all along. You have right now, sitting in that chair, the ability to break every bone in your body with your muscles. They have that tensile strength. But we have a governor called the nervous system in the brain that protects us from doing that to ourselves because that's not a great survival strategy, right? So it limits the amount of strength that we have access to. And our training is really just like exposing ourselves to more and more load in a safe way to learn the skill of strength. Right? Yeah. I don't know if you follow Pavel Tatsuin, or know him, the strong first guy, the kettlebell guy. He is a stud and he con he coined the term or at least popularized this term in the fitness and strength worlds of grease the groove. And really, he he talks about strength as a skill, and that's what it is, right? And the more you do it, the better you get at that skill of lifting up heavy things.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Now, now I know where my head CrossFit coach comes up with that term grease the groove because he uses it all the time. I figured he'd ripped it off from somewhere. I'll have to call him on that.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Yeah, it's an it's a neuroscience term, really. Yeah. I mean, I don't know where the original thing came from, maybe mechanics. But um that's that's like what neuroplasticity is. Learning habits and ditching habits is greasing the groove or choosing something else so that that neuropathway um will atrophy and become harder, right? Right. So pain is the same thing. Pain is a pathway in your brain. And the more you experience pain, the more you choose pain, or let your nervous system choose pain as a signal for you, the more greased that groove becomes and it becomes easier. Right. And when you let your brain give you pain, then it says, okay, so you want me to give you more pain. And it will do that. It's very accommodating in that way. Yeah. Right. So that's why we end up in these situations where we just have pain all the time. And the problem is that the threshold for threat, if it gets lower over time, then pain becomes more prevalent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it happens easier over time. And you put up with it. And then you end up in a situation where everything hurts. Yeah, because you keep putting up with it and you don't deal with it. And it's not, I'm not trying to like step on toes or be, you know, a jerk. Because most people just don't understand that um something like maybe this pain, this pain, let's let's use a knee pain as an example because it's so common, especially with Olympic lifting athletes like um um CrossFit athletes, knee pain, shoulder pain, right? Or the ultimate back pain. We just don't know because we weren't taught that maybe that pain in your back or your shoulder is not coming from your shoulder. Totally weird concept, right? It's like that doesn't make sense. It hurts right here, right? I could point to it. Yeah, right. Yeah, but maybe it's your peck pulling your shoulder. I mean, who knows? Well, so let's dive a little deeper on what pain actually is. Pain is we'll lay it out right here. The concept is pain is 100% of the time an output from your brain. Okay, and to illustrate that, let's take a situation, right? Let's back up. Your brain, your brain's one one job is to keep you alive, its only job is to survival. Okay, protect you at a fundamental level. Yeah, yeah, everything is geared toward that goal, survival. So how does it do that? Well, it takes in information from your environment, and then it interprets that information, and based on that interpretation, it will give you an output. That output, we hope, is clear thinking, good movement, no pain, speed, reaction, strength, what we might call performance-based output. If it perceives these inputs as threatening to my survival, and the key word there is perception, by the way. If we interpret that as threat, then we get a threat response. We get a protective output, something that's gonna help keep you alive. That might be pain. Because pain will slow us down. It might be tension. Don't move so much, that's dangerous. It might be it sounds weird, but it might be bad balance or dizziness. Now, how does that help keep us alive? Well, that makes us walk with a wider stance, it makes us maybe sit down. Maybe it makes us like hold on to something as we move through the world because I don't want you to fall over and hit your head. So I'm gonna make sure that you're stable. So any of these would be considered protective outputs, right? So if we know that, and we know that pain is 100% of the time an output from your brain, that does not mean that you don't maybe have a problem with your shoulder. Right? In an acute injury, there's a mechanical problem. And we have pain, but that's still an output from your brain. Here's an example You're in the woods, you're are you a hunter or a hiker, Sam? Uh uh less of a hunter and more of a hiker, sure. Okay, so you're hiking in the woods, okay, and you um step on a root in the trail, and you roll your ankle and snap. You hear it snap. Oh crap, I'm I'm I'm in a world of hurt. So you think that thought first, and then the pain comes, which is interesting, right? You feel the break, and then you feel the pain, right? They're separate, and that's because there's two pathways that happen here. One is much faster than the other, but the pain pathway, which isn't really a thing, but the no-suception pathway is much slower. And so you feel the break, you feel the paper cut, you feel the slice in the skin, and then you go, oh shit, that's gonna hurt. And then the pain comes, right? So we can talk about that more, but let's put that to the side. Yeah, you break the ankle, okay? Then you get this pain. Oh god, does it hurt? That's protective. Don't walk on this. You're gonna cause more damage. You might cut an artery because now you got like fragments of bone or a sharp bone, maybe. Like that's dangerous. This is really bad news. But then you hear what nobody wants to hear when they have a broken ankle in the woods a big growl. Now you got freaking Mama Grizzly Bear barreling down on you, and you somehow ended up between her and her cubs. That's not a good place to meet. Is pain a very good output from your brain now at this point? No, you probably want to ignore it. Survival? Yeah. Yeah. Is pain gonna be a good survival strategy? Do you consciously choose to ignore it? No. Maybe, but does that work most of the time? No. Because it's not conscious. It's it's your survival brain, right? But in that moment, survival now trumps pain and this screwed up ankle that you've got. So the pain in that moment is gone. And you run on a broken ankle, just like David Goggins, running on broken legs. Torn hamstring. Yeah, you're gonna you're gonna be able to run and get out of that situation. And then when you're safe and Mama Bear is not barreling down on you anymore, and you're in your car, holy cow, does that pain come back? And you're gonna be paying for it. Because now your ankle is trashed. Yeah. Right? But you're alive. Yeah, you're alive. You're alive. Yeah. Absolutely. So pain is an output from your brain. Always. So that is to me, when I learned that, I was like, damn. That broke open my brain. Because now what that means is that if number one, if I can actually go to the root, the brain, and affect the level of threat, the perception of threat, then I can affect the pain. And number two, anything that I do that can lower threat can affect the pain. So the nervous system is wonderful. And neurotraining, specifically, this idea of applied neurology and working with the brain and nervous system directly means that anything can affect anything. So I don't have to work on your shoulder to get rid of your shoulder pain. I can work on your breathing. I can work on the opposite hip with a concept we call opposing joints. I can work on your ankle. I can work with your eyes. Maybe I can work with your inner ear and fix your vestibular system that's telling your brain where you are in space. Any one of those might be contributing the threat that is the real reason why you're continually getting the shoulder pain. You might have an old injury there, and there might be some rehab that needs to be done on the shoulder. Right? You might have some muscle imbalances. Maybe you do have tight pecs pulling on that. But why do you have tight pecs? Because I'm a badass, that's why. Because you lift heavy weights and you push them all around.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Yeah, yeah, because I probably bench press happens to be my favorite activity.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Okay, cool. But could you also maybe have a little bit of a posture issue?

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Oh, yeah. Could I have spinal congenital spinal stenosis, which I have, yes. Okay, which means my spine is narrow narrower at my bottom than it is at the top, which hey, guess what? That that affects your body. It makes me asymmetrical.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Sure. But why do you have that?

SPEAKER_02 25:30

I I think Lady Gaga said I was born that way. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

I don't think many people are born with spinal stenosis. That kind of happens over time. My spine doctor actually said I was. I was actually born that way. Maybe that's possible. Okay. Did you have pain at birth?

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Don't remember that one, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Yeah. What I'm getting at is that pain does not equal injury. And injury does not equal pain. So just because you have a condition. That's right. And I always give the example of um non-um or excuse me, asymptomatic orthopedic injuries. If you look that up on like PubMed or NIH or CDC, like you'll find all these studies of people that have imaging done. So they take a random subset of people and they do a bunch of imaging, like MRIs, x-rays, gas scans. And what they find, depending on like the age bracket and the the area of the body, the low back is always a fascinating one because of this idea of nondescript low back pain. Like no, like low back pain that seems to come from nowhere, right? They can't really explain it. There's no injury. Well, when they look at people under um imaging, they find I'll probably get the exact numbers wrong, but it's ballpark. In the like 40-year-old to 60-year-old age bracket, something like 50% of people have degenerative discs, disc bulge or herniations, or some kind of osis, stenosis, spondylosthesis, um uh lordosis, hyperlordosis, kyphosis in their upper back. A lot of them, if you gave those images to an orthopedic surgeon, they would say, Schedule them, give me the scalpel, let's go. You need surgery. But these people have no symptoms whatsoever, right? That's the key, asymptomatic. If you get to the 60 to 80 year old population, it goes up to like 75% of these people have operable imaging results. If you get above 80 years old, it's something like 90%. It's astronomically high. So again, like pain does not equal injury, injury does not equal pain. And that should give people hope. Because we can go in now and we can affect that pain with way beyond what the traditional rehab models are telling us to do. You got to fix your muscle imbalances with more corrective exercise. You got to get in there and you gotta break up the scar tissue with grass dawn technique and like wrench on it with structural integration and foam rolling until you die, right? Or you gotta get in there and get chiropractic adjustments every week for the rest of your life. And they still have pain. And it's like, what do I do now? You know, and that was my experience. I did all the things. I did everything, nothing. I learned all the things. I worked in physical therapy for years. I was getting acupuncture every week, I was getting massages, I was going to chiropractors, myopractors, kinesiologists. I got a master's degree in kinesiology focused on orthopedic rehab. I did the physical therapy thing. I worked, like I built a program in physical therapy based around corrective exercise, nutrition. Like that we didn't have peptides running around back then, but I'm sure I would have done those too. And like actually love those now, right? But now I don't have pain. So, you know, I'm pretty good. But that's a whole nother conversation. Pretty excited about that stuff. But the point is that when you understand the nervous system and you start to look at the brain and the nervous system and the body as more of a whole integrated unit, then you get more options. And for me, my chronic neck pain, which I had a major head injury, um, where I was knocked out in a football game, got hit right on the top of the head, it compressed my neck and cervical spine, and I had a disc bulge and a stinger. My arm went numb. Um, I was knocked out concussion, concussion, the whole thing. Yeah. I was puking on the whole bus ride home. It was pretty nasty. Um, but again, this is 2009, so it was before really we knew much about concussions and long-term effects.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

When you're old, this is May 2009 was yesterday, but I know it seems like a long time ago to you.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

I it feels like yesterday still. Shit, I'll be 40 this year. I can feel but I feel amazing at 40, better than 30. I'd say that. So part of that has to do with this is my this will be a full decade um without alcohol. So congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

I'm coming on three years. Thank you. Nice, big difference, huh?

SPEAKER_01 30:36

That's the number one change. Yeah, that's made the biggest difference, I think, in my health. Yeah, there's this thing called clarity. I've done a lot of yeah, exactly. 100%. So anyway, that happened. I've got bulging discs and arthritis in my neck, you know, and I was having neck pain. And you asked earlier, like, what was like one of the things that really made me like it made me almost crazy. Was I was trying to build a business and around the 2016 realm, and I was working a lot and I was relying a lot on stimulants and um caffeine, Adderall, nicotine, uh, to like get shit done. And then abusing cannabis and alcohol. No, well, not alcohol, sorry. That's that's right when I had quit. But I was still using cannabis every day to kind of come down. I was regulating my system with exogenous substances, which is so common with athletes, it's ridiculous. Athletes, servicemen, um, and women, veterans, you know, anybody that lives like in a in a high-stakes lifestyle um that's very physically demanding, that learns to manage pain by dissociating from their body or distracting or whatever, it's easy for them to reach for an exogenous substance because they don't understand how to regulate their own nervous system. Because they've trained themselves to ignore it, right? And that was me for 100%. And so when that happens, like the substances aside, when you're not able to regulate it yourself and your interoceptive ability of like what's actually going on in my body, you're kind of like ignoring that, then pain, which is a signal, just gets louder. Sure. Because your brain is like, you gotta pay attention, dude. What are you doing? Listen to me. And so the pain just kind of like started ramping up, or it'll move around. But I had this pain in my neck and in my spine, it would lead to headaches sometimes. But at that time, I was like the foam rolling guy, the body worker guy, and the corrective exercise guy. So I was like spending over an hour a night rolling on a ball or a foam roller or using the theracane massage guns and just hammering my body, like trying to beat it into submission by force. And that didn't work very well. And I just like I remember one specific night I got to a point where I was just so frustrated and so angry that I like just blew up like in the middle of the floor and just like threw my theracain across the wall and hit the wall, and just I was so angry because it was just this culmination of 10 years of trying all these different things and nothing was working. So I get it, like the frustration that can happen. Sick and tired of being sick and tired. So exactly. So it was a couple years later when I actually um kind of serendipitously got hooked up with um this company and these people, my mentors that were teaching applied neurology. Um and within I'm not shitting you, like within probably six weeks of starting my um education in applied neurology, I got rid of all of my pain. And neurotrainers sometimes like let's back up. Like, have you ever heard the the saying that um magic is just or like any advanced science is indistinguishable from magic? Have you ever heard that before?

SPEAKER_02 34:36

No, but I underst I understand what it means.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

Uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Like the first time, um I'm not gonna think of a think of a good example. Let's let's take like a firework, for example. Like the first person to invent a firework, or just like a a gun for that matter. And you like, could you imagine the first person to see that thing go off? Like, what is this madness, right? It's just you know, they just don't understand that there's this substance, and if you put fire to it, it explodes, right? So that's kind of where the applied neurology world still kind of is right now. And if you meet somebody new that doesn't know that pain is an output from your brain, and I can work on the opposite side of the body and reduce that pain instantly, um you end up getting called like a voodoo master or something. Um I got called that quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

Yes, and so we're gonna stop right there. So so basically, you you you discovered this uh applied neurology.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

We call it neurot neurotraining.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Neurotraining it's technically and so pain pain was no longer an option or or or or or pain was an option, was optional for you at that point. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Well, I I found the tools that removed the threat and got rid of my pain that that like in an instant. Now that pain came back. I want to be clear, it wasn't gone forever. Okay, and it still comes back.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

But you're able to use these techniques to to to eradicate it immediately. Yep. So let's uh my one of my best one of my best friends is a full-blown urologist, and he listens to this podcast all the time. So you've got to convince my dear friend Dr. John Puente exactly what the hell it is you're talking about, all this woo-woo stuff. Yeah, I gotta call you on it, brother. Mind flow and apply neuron. So please so let's talk about we'll just take it uh in my case. Now you you work, so you work with people, athletes as well as the corporate world, right? So people that is that right? Okay, but this this just since we've kind of stayed on this athlete track and we stay on that because I I guess I identify with that more. So, like with me, I had an L5-S1 herniation, you know, pretty common, pretty common thing for anybody my age in their 50s, you know, doing CrossFit, doing heavy loads, and doing stuff I probably shouldn't have been doing. And and so I have this, I had experienced something that's called sciatic. Oh, that's the second time I've been in pain, by the way. Sciatic pain. Like, you don't want that shit at all, right? I mean, I maybe you, I'm sure you've had sciatic pain. I mean, I had a friend that had sciatic pain in his testicles, for heaven's sakes. That's where it ended up. Like I like he's like, cut him, like cut him off. Like, you know, that's how bad it is. Like, just go ahead and cut that off if that makes that go away. So you're talking about severe, like you want that to stop right now, intense, very intense. Like when I went to flush the toilet, I do, I couldn't, I couldn't, standing up, I could not flush the toilet, I couldn't bend over that much without just like I can't do this. So that's you know, I guess that's the second time I've been in pain. But so you take a guy like me, I come see you, take me from day one. Tell me, tell me how you're gonna tell explain it to me and Dr. Puente how it is that you're gonna get rid of this. And Dr. John McClellan, my spine doctor.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Yeah, well First of all, I would love to talk to your doctors.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

I if they ever want to. They they just might. They both listen to this thing, I think. They've both been guests on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Yeah, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

So, um, and I actually work with um They're actually both, they're both, they're they're both not stubborn in this like they're they're interested in learning new things. And my you know, my my friend Dr. John McClellan deals with uh pediatric cases of of uh of uh kids that have um pediatric uh nerve degeneration. Well no, but yeah, they have injuries, they have injuries, bad injuries. Okay, um and that's and and he's the guy that basically fixes the he's the guy, I mean he's the humble guy, but he's the kind of guy that fixes the botched back surgeries. He's very well known um very a national reputation. Um but anyway, where am I going with that? But but the thing is about both of the yeah, yeah, he does the Lord's work. That's right. But both of these guys are open to listening to new ideas. So so so let's go.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Tell me. My guy. And that's that's uh I've worked with quite a few neurologists, like I've trained quite a few. Um, and it's amazing because like uh they understand the brain and nervous system like at a level that you know I'm not even at, right? Um in my humble education. Um, but what we do is we take a lot of that textbook neuroscience and we just start trying it with people, right? And um, so in your case, like when I have somebody that comes in with a um a uh disc issue like that and sciatic pain, I'm gonna go, well, in that case, I'm going straight at the pain because it's very likely, almost 100% guarantee, that that nerve is getting entrapped or stuck somewhere, or you could be like putting pressure, compression on the nerve root itself, depending on how that sciatic pain shows up, where it is in your back, your hip, your glutes, your legs, your feet. And that's gonna tell us what nerve is being impinged or trapped. And then first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna try to get that nerve to calm the hell down, right? Because it is hypersensitive and it's like just pissed off. So, what I would do in that case is do some nerve slacking, first of all, to get some relief of the pressure on the disc or to get the nerve mobilized so that it's not stuck in the tissue somewhere. Because that's creating the mechanical tension to change on the nerve, which is sending signals down to the nerve that we need to be fired up. And I need like, yeah, the signals are being the wires are crossed, so to speak, the signals are off, and I need that thing to calm down. So in that case, I'm going straight at that back and that nerve. So um we're gonna like like a rubber band, that nerve is like stuck on tension. So I need to slack it to get it to relax, and then I want to kind of move it through the joints and the tissues to get it unstuck.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

So, how do you like a nerve is a very small thing? I mean, it's like a fishing wire, right? I mean, that's what I'm picturing. A fishing wire, maybe it's bigger than that.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

The nerves coming out of your back, they're a little bit bigger than that, but they're certainly smaller than like your tendons, ligaments, um, and muscles. Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

It's a small thing, so you got to isolate it. So, how what is nerve slacking? What does that mean? To me, that would be massage or what what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 41:35

So the nerves run through from the spinal cord out through the spine, and then the peripheral nerves down in your legs, like the sciatic nerve, it goes through your pelvis, through the hip and the back, down the back of the leg, and then you know, spread all the way down to your feet.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Exactly, and that's the key.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

And there, and there are a couple that go right in your testicles, that's true. Yeah, yeah. There's a branch that goes in there to your pelvic floor, to the genitals, and all that. So it's gonna show up. Each nerve has its own kind of like innervation and distribution of where it goes to and what it affects. So, based on your symptoms, we can isolate which nerve is the problem. And then because it runs along a long pathway, there's a lot of tissue in there: fascial tissue, connective tissue, muscle tissue, joints. There's a lot of things that that nerve has to snake through. And so there's a lot of opportunity for that nerve to get kind of stuck. It could adhere to surrounding tissues. If it's dehydrated, right, it can get sticky. And if it gets stuck, then let's say let's say it gets stuck.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

And I I I use the, and maybe I'm maybe it's a bad analogy, but I I picture like layers of saran wrap.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

And if you put a whole bunch of layers of saran wrap, you're trying to separate, have a little separate those layers so they lay more loose on top of them, so they're not stuck and they're not sticky. Yeah. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Yeah, that's a great analogy. And imagine that there's like a um, I'm gonna say twistler, I don't even know why, but like there's a twistler or like a little rope in between the layers of saran wrap. And usually it's nice and lubricated, so it just slides. That's a good mobilized nerve. But if it loses its lubrication or it gets compressed, then it gets stuck. And then when you move around and that is stuck right there, that's gonna pull tension on the nerve all along the pathway below that sticking point or above it, depending on how it's stuck, right? So we need to mobilize it, we need to get it to move again. Okay. And then there's also, so that's one way that we might work with it. And if I just shorten, so in your case with a sciatic nerve, I want to slack it. I usually am gonna pull the knee up, I'm gonna make Make it small. Make the distance from end to end as small as possible to let it slack and have some relaxation. And then I might try to move it through the tissues with just some body movement. That's one way. That's one option. If it's at the nerve root, then we're gonna definitely work with the spine itself and try to get some pressure relief on the discs. Okay. Maybe add some breathing, add some movement. And that's gonna lower the amount of threat, lower the tension and the sensitivity of the nerve, and that can oftentimes do a lot to relieve the pain in the moment. And then um you'd go through your normal rehab process. Okay. Your breathing, your core work, your stabilizing your spine, your nutritional processes, your own. 100%. All of that stuff. That's all incredibly important, right? Applied neurology. I'm not trying to say that it is like the be-all end-all of everything. No, no, no. It's just another layer, another lens with which to look at the world, and it makes every other modality, including strength training, more efficient. Right? So that's one way to do it, right? And then there's another way if it wasn't sciatic pain, let's just say you just had like lingering low back pain. It's not sciatic pain, it's just like low back pain, right? On this one side. Or um yeah, if we use that example, then I can actually go um to the opposing joint and I can move around your thoracic spine. And because of their connection and um the way that they move together and the way that they, you know, quote unquote communicate with each other through the spinal cord, we can oftentimes reloot reduce the amount of threat from that lower back and lower the pain by moving the opposing joints. Another example, um which is even more wild, is like the in the limbs. Because of how we walk, we're bipedal creatures. And like when my left leg goes forward, my body knows that my right arm has to come forward too. I don't have to think about it, it just happens, right? We can kind of think about that like like kind of like a reflex, right? It's there's the technical term is called a central pattern generator, but it's kind of like a software program that you have built in. Swallowing is another one, so is breathing. We don't have to think about it. When you just initiate the swallowing, then the muscles of your esophagus and everything just takes over. So we have these kind of built into our spinal cord, and one is walking, right? And because of these, when this leg goes forward, this arm needs to go forward. So they're kind of communicating with each other, right? So, because of that concept, I know that if you have a right shoulder pain, I can often go work at the opposing joint that it communicates with, which is your opposite hip. Do you know anybody that's had like, oh, I had shoulder pain, ah, now I got this hip pain in the opposite side, dude.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

So I I have a sports massage guy, and and it hasn't happened for a while, but when I first started seeing him, now he's into uh he's fantastic, he's into AIS, he's into ART, all those things. And we're we're we're not, it's not just like uh, you know, my wife thinks I'm going to get a Swedish massage. No, no, no, no. Um I mean, we're he's got his elbow and stuff, and yeah, anyway, a lot of times everything would refer to my right hip. He could be working anywhere, anywhere, and it's referring to my right hip. It's just the most bizarre thing. So, yes, I've I I I agree with you. I've I've been there.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

I I experienced it. That's a great example. Um, a great example of like how we can grease the groove over time, and anything can affect anything, so I can reduce your pain in that area by doing almost anything. Some things are more precise than others, but we could also create pain in that area with almost anything because it's a it's a pathway of least resistance, right? So if your brain's gonna like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, what's going on? What's going on? Like that's been around for a while, so it's easy to just like send you pain and it's fast too. So great example. Um so if I have that hip pain, then I can go to the opposite shoulder and I can move it. And I will often this is just experience. Yeah, there's not a there's no clinical research out there on this that I know of. Um, but through my own experience anecdotally and that of some of my colleagues in the neurotraining world, which is at this point probably thousands of people that have come in pain to see us, the average pain relief for opposing joints is 40 to 50 percent instantly. So sometimes it's more for me. My neck pain, the opposing joint of the cervical spine is the sacrum and the pelvis. So when I started to actually we call it mapping, but map the pelvis, so moving it in all the ways that it can move, activating all the mechanoreceptors and proprioreceptors down there, which I had never done before. Nobody had ever said, Hey, can you move your pelvis? And so the first time I tried to do it, I was like, what is this thing down here that Shakira moves so well and I don't. And so that was kind of eye-opening, like just being able to differentiate the joints, but that blurry map, because we got maps of our body that live in our brain, that's where the pain actually lives, is in these body maps. It's a representation of my neck in my brain where the pain lives, right? So that said, if we have a blurry map in the brain, and our brain just doesn't really know how to move this area, so it just moves it all as one big unit, right? It's just a blurry map, it'll just move everything. When you start to fill in that map and clean it up, the brain feels more predictable in your movement, it feels safer to move, right? And it lowers your threat. Okay, so that's one thing. But the opposing joint of the neck is the pelvis. I started to move that pelvis and I actually got it moving. And I was like, whoa, I actually can move it. Sam, I'm I I'm not shitting you. When I was like, I tested my neck range of motion, like, oh my goodness, I could move increased three inches more on each side, and I had zero pain. It was gone in an instant.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Yes. I I I these are all things I've experienced. I mean, I get it.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. Now I had I had proof, right? And so I'm all in. You're in. I'm all in. That's what I've been doing for the long time. You're in. Last six years.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Um, so so I do I do, and and and I apologize, Brand, I'm short on time today, but and I'm not usually. I do want I do want to talk about mind flow. What does that actually mean in plain English? Mind flow. What does that mean? Yeah, so and maybe we've already talked about some of it. I mean, but a little bit, but but not really.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Flow states is the technical term. And it's been called a million things throughout time. Because this is a ubiquitous, meaning anyone can access this at any time. Meaning common cowboys. Yes. That's an egghead word. Ubiquitous. Yeah. So anyone can do this at any time. And I would venture to say that pretty much everybody has experienced this. Well, I know 100% everyone's experienced this, but they sometimes they don't remember it until you help them understand what it is. So it's an altered state of consciousness, means it's different from our normal waking consciousness, like you and I having this conversation right now. The simple definition is it's it's an optimal state of consciousness where we feel and perform our best. It's been called things like in the zone, runners high, in the pocket, um, clutch, um the deep now.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Guys like Tom Brady and guys like Tom Brady and Michael Jordan know all about it, right? I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

That's why we oftentimes play sports. And I would I would venture to guess that's why you do CrossFit. Because CrossFit has flow triggers kind of baked into it with number one, the community aspect of it. That's cool. And it it it increases your accountability and your challenge because you're kind of like you're kind of it's a competition in some ways, you know. You're trying to be better for yourself, but you're also like you're all doing the same stuff.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

That's why you go to class because you want to see how your buddy's doing it, and where am I at in relation to him today, which I'm usually looking behind looking up, but that's okay. That's hard.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

But that increases the challenge, and flow states live just outside of our current skill level. So when we push ourselves a little bit, then we get into this state where you're so absorbed in the task that you're doing that everything else fades away. Time goes away, where an hour workout can go by in an instant. Uh your sense of self vanishes. This is a surfer that feels one with the wave, or a musician like Eddie Van Halen that is like one with his guitar, right? You're so like on another level with your performance that you're accomplishing things that you may never have accomplished before or even attempted, right? So it's effortless effort. That's why it's a peak state of performance because we're just like locked in, right?

SPEAKER_02 54:14

No, uh, I mean, I I I I believe in it, I know exactly what you're defining. Um, I don't know that I've ever experienced it. So, how can you help me get there? Is that what you do? Try and get people to perform obviously. Yeah. So, how would you help a guy like me get there?

SPEAKER_01 54:31

Well, the first step is recognizing where you have been there in the past, because I guarantee you have, but most people have this misconception that it's uh it's it's reserved for like elite athletes at the top of their game like Jordan or Tom Brady, but it's not. Anyone can have this at any time, and there is this big spectrum of flow states. You can have like macro flow states, like Tom Brady in the Super Bowl, or Michael Jordan, like that game six.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

Making that winning three-point shot.

SPEAKER_01 55:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. That's like a big time flow state, but there is all the way down to micro flow states. Um, like I use the example of you know, you're at the end of the workday and you're like, I gotta write that email to that client or to that um customer. And you just kind of get into it, you start, and then holy smokes, like 30 minutes just went by in an instant, and you were just like, you kind of lost track of time. That's a flow state too.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

Yeah, yeah. Well, if you practice guitar, some I play play guitar sometimes, it'll transcend time and space. You're like, holy cow, like I've been doing this for three hours, I had no idea what time it was. Perfect. So, yeah. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

And then the next step. So, how do you get there though? I mean, how do you how do you freaking so like like you're training people to to train that you're training their brain to get there more often or to get there when they want to? Is that the I mean that's what you want to be able to control it, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Yeah, exactly. And so, first of all, you got to understand what it is and what the triggers are that help you. And so now that we know that guitar is a good access to flow states, then we break down music, baby. What is it about that? And so rhythm is part of it, right? A little bit of challenge. The challenge skills balance is like the golden rule of flow. You got to challenge yourself just beyond your current skill level. You need clear goals, you need immediate feedback. Did you hit the note or did you miss the note? Right? You need clear goals. This is the scale run that I'm trying to do. This is the riff I'm trying to play. I know whether or not I've done it. I know when I've done it correctly, I can hear it. I've got the rhythm with the metronome. I've got like all of these things are triggers that are gonna make it more able for you to get into a flow state with guitar playing or with music. We can use those same principles in other areas, like in your training with CrossFit, like in your life, in in relationships, in conversations, in your administrative work, in your you know what uh the godfather of flow states, Mihachik, sent me what I would call maintenance time, like doing your laundry, doing your dishes. You can have flow states there too, and make that shit way more enjoyable because you're in the present moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

That's the So how often how often do you use um how often do you use them in your own personal life?

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Every day when you need them? I try to be in flow as often as possible because it's one of the most enjoyable experiences that we as humans can have.

SPEAKER_02 57:40

Like bet better, better than any. I mean, you and I have both been intoxicated on alcohol. Uh, I've never done drugs, but you've been intoxicated on drugs. It's better than any of that, right? Because it's so it's more authentic. It is more fake, and you don't you don't come around you don't when you come off of it, you're not in shame or regret, right? You're in euphoria. Exactly. True euphoria. Like, yeah, like yeah, it's the best drug on planet Earth. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Man, I could do this for the next two hours, my friend. This has been awesome. I I have 10 questions that I need to ask, but I just I hate to well, we'll have to do it again. I I'm sorry. Yeah, we will have to do it again. I appreciate it. Now, let real quickly, how how if my listeners are interested in what you're into and they want to contact you, how do we get that done?

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Yeah, you can head to my website and check out my programs and read a little bit more about um myself and your website is it's evolved. This is your time. Evolved athlete.coach. Um you can also yeah, or check me out on Instagram at imbrandon day, all one word. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 58:53

Okay, good to know. Good to know. Well, I appreciate it is there something that we uh I'm gonna give you the last word. Is there something that I mean, obviously that we could talk about a hundred things, but is there something that you wanted to cover today that we haven't?

SPEAKER_01 59:05

Um no. If anybody is really interested in how to apply applied neurology in order to get into momentum to reach more flow states, I have built a 21-day program that is exactly for that. Get you out of pain and get you into momentum to getting to reaching flow states as the goal. It's 21 days, daily videos, super easy. Um, you can find that on my website. So that's a great place to start.

SPEAKER_02 59:29

Awesome. Awesome. Brandon, thanks. I appreciate your time. We'll uh we'll have to do this again. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Yeah, I love that. Thanks, Sam.