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Surviving Trauma: Stories of Hope
Surviving Trauma: Stories of Hope
Courage Under Fire: A Special Agent's Tale of Survival and Whistleblowing
When the dust settled after the terrifying collapse of the World Trade Center, NYPD beat cop turned ATF Deputy Assistant Director Peter J. Forcelli found himself in a fight for his life, both physically and mentally. Join me as I, Marlene McConnell sit down with Peter to unpack his harrowing experiences from the front lines of law enforcement, including his vivid survival story from September 11th and the unspoken mental health battles that followed. His gripping narrative not only sheds light on the personal costs of service but also opens up a much-needed conversation on the psychological toll that comes with the badge.
The scars of trauma often lie hidden beneath the surface, but as Peter shares, conquering the nightmares of PTSD begins with breaking the silence. In a profession where mental fortitude is a given, we unravel the evolution of how admitting to mental struggles in law enforcement is no longer a sign of weakness, but a courageous step towards healing. The episode journeys through Peter's personal coping strategies, offering hope and practical advice for those silently struggling and a call to action for systemic change within the ranks of first responders.
Finally, we tread into the depths of government accountability with Peter as he gives us an insider's perspective on his whistleblower experience during Operation Fast and Furious. His story is a powerful reminder of the weight of the oath to serve and protect the Constitution and the American people, challenging leadership to own their mistakes for the betterment of all. Shedding light on the complexities and consequences of bureaucratic mismanagement, Peter's narrative is a testament to the resolve of those who dare to speak truth to power and the resilience of the human spirit when faced with life's unexpected battles.
It has been my pleasure to have Peter join me, and I know, my listeners, that you will enjoy the episode.
If you wish to connect with Peter, check out his website and social media links below.
Website: https://www.peterjforcelli.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-j-forcelli-26597122/
Please, head to Amazon, Takealot or Audible at the link and get your copy of my E-book, paperback book or audiobook edition, of Ray of Light, and please leave me a rating and review. It would mean the world to me.
Amazon.com Link: https://lnkd.in/df_4QV6S
Takealot.com Link: https://lnkd.in/dGUQKPKN
Audible: Link to Audiobook here
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Please support the show on Paypal: PayPal.Me/marlenegmcconnell
Hi there, I'm your host, marlene McConnell, and welcome to the Surviving Trauma Stories of Hope podcast this week. I am thrilled to welcome Peter J Forcelli to the podcast. Peter is a retired Deputy Assistant Director from the US Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol, tobacco, firearms and Explosives. Prior to joining ATF, he served for 15 years with the New York Police Department before retiring from the Bronx Homicide Task Force. He is now an author, public speaker and advocate for law enforcement and government accountability. He is a volunteer at Empower Oversight, a government watchdog organization.
Speaker 1:Mr Focelli worked his way up from beat cop to detective before going on to serve as a special agent for the ATF in New York City. There he rose through the ranks of ATF, eventually becoming a deputy assistant director at the agency. He has made over 1,200 arrests and has served over 300 search warrants. In his law enforcement career, he was known for developing complex criminal investigations targeting armed gangs and criminal organizations. Over the span of his career, mr Forcelli served in a variety of leadership positions within ATF. He was a group supervisor in Phoenix, arizona, an assistant county attache in eastern Canada and both an assistant special agent in charge and eventually the special agent in charge of Miami, florida. While serving as the special agent in charge of Miami Field Division, he oversaw ATF's response to several mass shootings, including those at the Fort Lauderdale Hollywood International Airport and Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, florida. He also oversaw ATF's investigation into Omar Martin and his acquisition of the firearms that were used in the Pulse nightclub shooting. Mr Focelli is a survivor of the 9-11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the lung cancer that he later developed because of his work in the rescue and recovery efforts at Ground Zero.
Speaker 1:It has been my honor and a true pleasure to welcome Peter to the podcast and to have him join me, and I know you will love this episode. Thank you so much to my listeners for joining me on this journey. Comment on the posts on Instagram, facebook or LinkedIn and let me know what you think of this episode. Also, head to Takealot, amazoncom and Audible and get your copy of my book Ray of Light, and please leave me a rating and review. It means the world to me. Also, please check out my website and download your free journal prompt and relaxing meditation on the resources page. As always, stay tuned and keep listening. Thank you so much for joining me on the Surviving Trauma Stories of Hope podcast. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm doing good. Good to be here. How are you doing?
Speaker 1:I'm doing good Good to be here. I'm so excited and thrilled to have you share your story today with us. I think it's an important conversation. First responders always have a very special place in my heart, simply because they played such an important role just in my life and the trauma that I've endured, and so I'm absolutely thrilled to be able to welcome you here today and have you share some of your experiences and challenges, and also inspiration, with us. So thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. It's nice to be here.
Speaker 1:You are now a retired ATF special agent, so tell us what exactly that means and what your role was within the ATF.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure. Well, ATF is kind of like the FBI and the Drug Enforcement Administration or DEA, except ATF's mission is focused on tobacco smuggling, alcohol smuggling in the US from the Elliot Ness days back in the prohibition era, so they don't do much of that work anymore. And then firearm smuggling, so firearms smuggling, misuse of firearms, so gangs using firearms in the United States if it's a federal crime, because not every crime is a federal crime in the United States. And then ATF also has jurisdiction over explosives and arson in the United States. So you know, if it rises to the level where the federal government is interested in it, then we would be involved in those sorts of cases.
Speaker 1:Wow, I mean, you weren't always working within the ATF. You started as a New York police officer, specifically a homicide detective.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, I actually started walking a beat wearing a uniform, walking a beat in the housing projects in New York City, which was a very rewarding experience, you know, because when you're on foot you get to know people, you get to understand your community. People know your name, you know their name many good people, some, unfortunately, bad people. So but I did that for a number of years and then, you know, eventually was in a patrol car responding to 911 jobs for a few years as well, and then I became a detective when I had seven years with the NYPD and I spent my first three years as a generalist, you know, investigating anything theft, sexual assault, rape, murder. Roughly three years of doing that. I was asked to go into the homicide squad, which obviously focused on murders but also worked a bit with FBI, atf, dea and other agencies where there was a federal nexus, stuff that involved interstate crimes. So that's where I got my first taste of working on federal cases.
Speaker 2:But after roughly five years as a homicide detective during a pretty bad time in New York's history I mean, Bronx, where I worked, was one county and in that county they averaged 600 murders a year, which was a pretty violent place back in those days. It's much safer now, but yeah, it was. So it was. After five years there I had some exposure to working on federal cases I decided to leave the NYPD and that's when I joined ATF. So I joined the NYPD in 1987, january of 87. And I actually left in the summer of 2001, right before the September 11th incident. That happened in Manhattan.
Speaker 1:Right, but you were still in New York during the time of the terror attacks on the Twin Towers in New York City and, peter, if I understand, you survived and you were in fact there at the Twin Towers on the day of the terror attacks. Do you want to share what that experience was like?
Speaker 2:Sure, well, I actually was on my way to work that day. I wasn't there yet when the first plane hit the North Tower, so my boss called me on the phone. I was in Manhattan but I didn't see. The towers were the two tallest buildings in New York City, but there are many skyscrapers, as we call them, between where I was and there, so I didn't see that the buildings had been hit. And I remember, when my boss called me, my thoughts were that a small plane hit the World Trade Center. Maybe the pilot had a heart attack or something, I didn't know what to make of it. So I started to make my way down there and I remember, as I had parked because it took me a few minutes to get there as I had parked north of the site, I remember, like leaning forward in my car because the building was so tall, I had to lean forward to see what was happening. And I remember seeing someone waving a white could have been a t-shirt or something like to get the attention of people on the ground that he was trapped above the fire. And so, you know, I got out of my vehicle. We didn't wear uniforms, but we had windbreakers that had, like you know our insignia on it. So I put that on and I walked down again.
Speaker 2:I still didn't realize how big the aircraft was that hit the tower and I remember as I walked towards the site I had to make a left hand turn and walk, you know, not very far one block, we call it, like you know. And when I got there I saw the plane engine sitting on the ground. And that's when I realized how big the aircraft was, because here's this plane engine intact and they look very big when they're on a plane. They look much bigger when they're on a plane. They look much bigger when they're just sitting on the street. And so I remember at that point, just trying to help get people to keep moving, keep moving and the World Trade Center wasn't sitting at ground level, you had to walk up a flight of stairs to get to the plaza where there are two towers sat. So I went up those stairs and I walked towards the South Tower, which had not been hit yet, and to get people to keep moving so the rescuers could get there firefighters, police officers, ambulance people, because congestion people couldn't get to do their job.
Speaker 2:And when I was standing here I remember seeing a young emergency medical technician, young lady. She was tending to a patient who was laying on the ground and I was getting closer to the South Tower was laying on the ground and I was getting closer to the South Tower when all of a sudden I didn't hear the plane coming. But I felt the heat from when the plane hit the building because it was a big fireball and it didn't burn me, but you could feel the heat and I remember the deafening sound and I turned back to my left to look at the young paramedic and she was now laying on the ground and I watched literally the color leave her face as the life left her body. So I watched her die right there, which was difficult. And then, you know, the debris was still falling obviously. So I remember looking back towards the North Tower, where I had come from, and looking up and I saw for the first time in my career I saw people jumping from the building. So I mean, as a police officer I'd responded to jumper calls.
Speaker 2:They call them jumpers and normally you would get there and it would be a crime scene because the person jumped from a bridge or building or it would be a situation where a person was on the ledge, more often than not like as a cry for help, so you would talk to them and get them off, and get them help.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was the first time I had ever seen someone fall from such a height 70, 80 stories in the air and I remember as I would see them. I remember like bracing myself because I did not want to hear how they would sound when they hit the ground. So the first person hit the ground was disturbing. I can still hear those sounds today, in fact, in my head. We need to think about it, because certain images just stay with you. And then the second person I saw jump didn't hit the ground, but they hit like an overhang to protect you from the rain that's jutted out from the building. And at that point I realized this isn't a safe place to be because you had debris falling, you had people now jumping and I didn't want to get hit with either a person or debris. So I made my way back down to ground level and I was asked to go try to find some of my work colleagues because they hadn't showed up where they were supposed to go to have a headcount, so to speak. So I went down towards the site and that's when two other ATF agents that I'd worked with had stopped me. You know, I was looking for them, in fact, and across the street where the Ground Zero was, I noticed some New York City police officers walking towards the site and I knew three of them. There were like roughly 10 of them heading in and you know, one of them was a guy, john Coghlan. He was a sergeant that I worked with when I was a brand new cop. Another one was Vincent Danz. He went through with the police academy with me and we went through field training together. So I knew Vinny very well too. And then this young officer named Walter Weaver and I saw them walking into the site and Vinny, vincent Danz, saw me and he had, like he looked at like you know, hey, what's going on? Like he didn't know that I had left the NYPD, because I had left on very quickly. I left on a Friday, started working my new job on a Monday. So I kind of threw my hands up like I guess we'll talk about it later, you know, I mean because, but anyway.
Speaker 2:So I watched them walk into the building and it was at that point that Jason Zameloff, one of the ATF agents, grabbed my shirt and just screamed run. And I remember to run, and I remember because I was fixated on my friends. So yeah, as I watched the tower begin to fall, I started to run north on that street, which was actually called Church Street, and I remember, as I was running north I got hit squarely between the shoulder blades with something, and it wasn't very heavy, it didn't injure me, but it certainly got my attention. And I remember looking around me and there were several police cars there and there was a fire truck. So I realized I couldn't fit under the police cars, but I knew I could duck myself under that fire truck. So I got down on my hands and knees and rolled under the fire truck. And as I was there, you know, I realized that my friends, you know, that went into the building were not going to make it. They were gone. I didn't know if the two agents that I was working with were also, you know, had they made it.
Speaker 2:And then I just continued to run, well, stay under the firetruck until eventually the dust cloud came and hit me in the face and it was blinding because, you know, it was very gritty. So, as my eyes were blinking, it hurt, it was very scratchy, but then it became difficult to breathe. So I realized that if I stayed under the fire truck I might suffocate. So I got out from under that fire truck and then ran north until I heard somebody yelling from a building hey, come here, come here. And it didn't sound like someone who was needing help. It sounded like somebody who was offering help. So I ran in that direction and when I got to the door, the gentleman that was yelling grabbed me by my collar and brought me over to a water fountain where normally you would drink from, and I was able to wash out my eyes and I was coughing horribly. So, yeah, it was obviously very difficult at that moment.
Speaker 1:I mean, it must be incredibly traumatic, and I would imagine that there are so many things at that point, pete, that goes through your mind, because I would imagine that your mind is still trying to make sense of what it had actually just experienced. What was that sort of like in that moment's processing and actually realizing what had happened?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I would be lying if I said that I was afraid because there was so much going on that my mind really wasn't processing it. So I was just trying to do what I could at that very moment and I didn't really think about like things then and there. So I mean, like after I washed out my eyes, for example, you know, after telling people because people tried to rush past me to go outside and help others, because people tried to rush past me to go outside and help others, and I realized that, you know, if they went outside they would be, you know, have difficulty breathing, like I did. So I tried to discourage them from going out. Some folks waited a few seconds, some pushed past me and went out anyway. But then, once the dust settled, you know, I went out and we all tried to see who we can help. But it was strange because it seemed that people either got away or they perished inside. So there wasn't really an opportunity to help anyone because, again, they were either able to help themselves or they were under the building, you know, dead.
Speaker 2:So I mean it was. You know, if there was one thing I would say that I felt that was, at that point a feeling of helplessness, because you wanted to help but there was no one that you could help. So you helped yourself as best you could as far as making sure that you didn't put yourself in harm's way anymore. But it was, you know. So, for, you know, spent quite some time doing that.
Speaker 2:And then I got a phone call from my boss telling me that one of my colleagues was stuck in her car. She was pregnant. So we found her myself and another agent named Bill Sheldon and we pulled her from the car. She wasn't trapped in the way like you would be in a car accident. She was trapped because she was pregnant and she was afraid to come out and breathe in that horrible air. So we took her from the car and helped her get to a nearby hospital. And then I went back to the site, and that's when the North Tower began to collapse and I ran and saw a cover in a store this time, so I wasn't as close to the North Tower as I was to the South Tower when it fell.
Speaker 1:And you managed to get your colleague out and also bring her to safety.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes definitely and like. I said she wasn't injured. It was just that because she was pregnant, she didn't want to come out into that air and have to breathe it. But I mean there really was no choice. I mean, eventually we had to get her out of the car, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean the, the, the. The aftermath of 9-11 took months, the entire cleanup process, but sort of can you take us through. You know that time, what had happened to when you finally got home.
Speaker 2:Sure. Well, that day after we brought Kara to the hospital, like I said, I went back to the site. The North Tower collapsed. After that happened, I went and continued to site the North Tower collapsed. After that happened, I went and continued to try to see if we can help anybody. I remember trying to dig and then at one point we were tasked with picking up some of the extra equipment that we had, mostly our car radios, so that they didn't fall into the wrong hands, which I thought was really not an important thing. But my bosses disagreed. So we went and retrieved the radios and then delivered them to someone who was very close by to ground zero and then went back and continued to dig.
Speaker 2:And I remember the night of 9-11, that evening, when the sun went down, I had gone to the other side of the site, which was a big site. It was several blocks and I remember hearing these chirps, these sounds. It sounded like a fire alarm in your house would sound, and I remember hearing hundreds of them. So I you know at the time I didn't know this, but what those were was the firemen carried these personnel locators so if they were trapped in a building that fell, that their peers can find them. Well, I was hearing hundreds of these chirps and, like I said at the time, I thought they were house fire alarms and I asked the fireman is that the fire alarm? And he's like no, that's our firemen, they're trapped in there. And that was at that point that I realized how many hundreds of people had perished, so stayed there and dug through the night, the second night, so it's you know.
Speaker 2:Obviously, on September 12th I was called and asked to go to an office to meet with our director, and I did and, you know, stayed there for a little while, took a nap on a couch for a very, very short time, and then I drove home on the morning of September 13th. So I was away for two days and I remember, as I was pulling up to the house, my wife was leaving with my two kids and you know what happened was I had not called my wife since that. You know, september 10th. I didn't talk to her on September 11th.
Speaker 2:So I found out at that point that my wife had sent my mother-in-law to school to pick up my children and they sat there and waited for a chaplain to come and knock on the door because they assumed that I was, that I had perished in when the South Tower fell. So that was a difficult thing for me to absorb and process that my wife and kids thought I was dead and that I never stopped and took the time to call them, which is something that I still feel very guilty about. But it was there that my wife, you know, after I took a nap and took a shower, you know my wife had informed me that, yes, the three officers that I watched walk into the building had perished, and then I found out that four more friends of mine also died. Three other police officers and one fireman were also killed in the collapse of the buildings. So it was a difficult thing to deal with you know because here.
Speaker 2:I was very close by, I was a police officer with them and I went through a period you know where and this was included you know when I was working because, as you pointed out, the rescue and recovery effort lasted for months, so we were digging for bodies for months, but at the same time, you know, there were police funerals and whatnot of some of my colleagues and some people who I didn't know.
Speaker 2:And I couldn't bring myself to go to any of the funerals because I actually felt guilty that my friends had perished and that I had managed somehow to survive. So I dealt with that for quite some time and it brought me to a very you know very dark place, you know, emotionally, because I just felt guilty for surviving, which is crazy.
Speaker 1:But but I think you know that isn't that part of just post-traumatic stress disorder that we do question why do we survive? Why was I not the one to perish? And I think it's tormenting when that sort of you know replays in one's mind. Um, so I mean, it must've been incredibly, incredibly difficult the months that followed, because, and, and and I want to sort of move into your mental state at the at, at at this point when we start talking about, um, just post-traumatic stress disorder, because there were so many people who were sort of diagnosed at the time because of the overwhelming nature of the trauma of 9-11. What was that process like for you, the diagnosis, and how did you cope?
Speaker 2:Well, I wasn't diagnosed at that time. Unfortunately, I fell into the same trap that many people in the military and in law enforcement fall into, in that I felt like I'm not the person who asks for help, I'm the concerts anymore, because I didn't like to be around a lot of people after 9-11. Where before 9-11, I loved those things, I couldn't go to baseball games.
Speaker 2:Same thing. I didn't like to be around crowds. If I went to shopping malls and they were crowded, or if there were too many colors or too much noise, I would not be able to function normally, like I'd have to sit down and tell my wife, hey, you and the kids go shopping and come, come, pick me up on the way out, because it just it, it, it, so it physically it started to get to me pretty soon after nine, 11. But as time continued, um, I started to get situations like, for example, one one afternoon when driving home I started to get chest pains and thought I was having a heart attack. And I went to the hospital and they did all the tests and I wasn't having a heart attack. And the doctors, after asking me many, many questions and running many, many tests, said, hey, you might have PTSD. Did you ever think about that? And, to be honest with you, I wasn't impolite in my response, but I was very dismissive of them because I didn't want to believe it. I said, no, of course not, I don't have PTSD.
Speaker 2:And then it wasn't until years later where, you know, I had another situation like that and then eventually wound up getting lung cancer. You know, at that point when I had the lung cancer many years later, is when I realized that it was time for me to get some help. Because, you know, I realized at this point what I wasn't myself, and I realized that, you know, here I had the lung cancer and I've really wanted to leave the profession whole, because I figured I came into this profession whole. I want to leave the same way, and it was at that point where I really decided to get help. But for many years I had issues that I ignored and I regret that because you know all those years that I could have been a better father and a better husband and a better co-worker. Instead, I just remained inside of my own head, you know, just thinking about things. You know reliving that day and not talking to somebody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that is such a common theme amongst law enforcement officers. And so why do you think it is that law enforcement officers, you know, don't want to really seek care for their mental health issues, despite the fact that they work in environments where they are exposed to severe trauma on a almost a regular basis I almost want to say a daily basis? But why do you think that they don't seek the care that they need?
Speaker 2:Well, I think in the United States it's twofold. Back in the day, when I started, you just didn't ask for help. It was frowned upon. And if you did, there was a chance that they would feel that you weren't mentally fit and take your gun from you and your badge and you would lose your career. That changed about 10 years ago, but just because the policies changed didn't mean that the culture changed.
Speaker 2:I think now, partially thanks to what's happening with our military in the United States, where our veterans are coming back and they're acknowledging that they have PTSD and there are programs for them, I think that is really what broke the ice for first responders, because I mean, look, I think most people respect the military and the risks that they take and if it's good enough for them, then it's good enough for us. But for many years it was taboo for people who were first responders to ask for help, because it was perceived as a sign of weakness, where now it's become somewhat normal and, I would even argue, encouraged, which is a good thing it's a very good thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's always devastating. You know the impact that violence and the violent crime and you know especially if you're working as a police officer or as a firefighter, basically as a first responder, can have on on on law law, you know law officers, but I mean if the policies that they work around in itself is saying you know you will be penalized if you actually take care of yourself, it's a very difficult place to be in to say I need help and so, yeah, I mean I'm really happy that there is a move forward and a recognition to say you know that there is a place now for law officers, as well as the officers in the military, to be able to seek help. So what would you say are some crucial tips and resources that has helped you that you could recommend to fellow officers?
Speaker 2:Well, there's a few things Actually. What worked for me was meditation, which, if you asked me 10, 15 years ago, I thought meditation was kind of like a fraud. But I met somebody who teaches meditation and he had some good conversations with me and showed me how to do it and it actually helped me dramatically. In fact, it lowered my blood pressure significantly without having to take any sort of medication. So I believe in that. But I mean, for some people I think it's therapy with like a psychological person, like an expert or a therapist. For some people I think it's therapy with a psychological person, like an expert or a therapist. For some people, I think clergy can help.
Speaker 2:I think that it's important to find what works best for you as an individual, because one of the things that bothered me when I first found out I had this was the medical professionals wanted to give me pills, you know, take Prozac.
Speaker 2:I didn't like the way it made me feel and it frankly didn't help me. Way it made me feel and I it it frankly didn't help me other than make me feel tired. So I just thought that it was important to find something that did work, and for me it was the meditation, and talking to people also helps and, truthfully, even talking about that day now helps me, where years ago I just couldn't do it. So now I actually talk about 9-11 to first responders to help them understand that it's okay to ask for help if they need it, but also because it helps me. So I mean but look, I think the important thing is for people in law enforcement or military or really any profession to realize that if you don't take care of yourself, then you can't really take care of your family and you can't do your job very effectively if you're bogged down with what's going on in your head.
Speaker 1:It's true. I mean, if you're constantly having flashbacks to a past trauma or a past incident or a crime scene, it definitely impedes your ability to be able to function and to function at full capacity. And I think that mental health definitely should be prioritized, and I think you know there's so many health benefits overall if you look not only after your physical body but also your mental health. The two work so well together, so the benefits are actually enormous.
Speaker 2:Oh, I couldn't agree more. I think that's absolutely true. And look, the other thing is at some point you're going to leave your profession, you're going to retire. You should want to leave your profession as whole as you can be when you, you know at least as much as you were when you came into it. Number one and then number two I think one of the problems is people put their careers sometimes before themselves and their family, and that's not very healthy. Because you know, what I learned when I retired is that the organization is going to continue without you, and you know that you can love your job. It's not going to love you back.
Speaker 2:You know, I know that as soon as I retired, within a day, my office was redecorated and a new person was sitting in there, and other than my friends. I wasn't hearing from them. They don't want to hear from you. Your friends will remain your friends, but it's even more of a reason to take care of them. But look, the other thing I think that happens too is sometimes we see people who look like they're struggling and I think there's this hesitance to say simple words like hey, are you okay? I think that's important too is to proactively try to help each other. I think sometimes we see people suffer and we don't want to intrude or we don't want to ask, we don't want to offend, and in some ways I think that does damage as well.
Speaker 1:It's true, I can completely relate to that and I think that even if you you don't need to know the circumstances that the person is finding themselves in, you don't need to know the details, but I think if you can give that shoulder, that ear to listen, or just that word of encouragement, even a smile, that can make a big difference in that person's life.
Speaker 2:It could save their life actually. It could save their life actually, you know, for those people who were at that last desperate moment to feel isolated and alone, for them to realize that people care could be a lifesaver. It could change their life, and you know what? It could change the life of the person who asks for help. I mean who, rather, who asks to help because you're having such a meaningful impact on somebody else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure I agree with that. Else, yeah, for sure I agree with that. So I mean, within the agencies I mean we spoke earlier about that there were some policy changes that they've made. People are now more encouraged. So when we talk about the different agencies the ATF, the FBI, the DEA, even the New York NYPD Do you have any sort of ideas or do you know how they, within those agencies, really prioritize mental health and the well-being of the officers now, since these policy changes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean they've implemented programs. There's a chaplain program in ATF, there's one in the NYPD as well. Fbi, I imagine, has one.
Speaker 2:I didn't work for them so I can't say I know each agency has come up with its own peer support group where, you know, if an officer goes through a traumatic experience, they try to find someone who went through a similar experience, just to have them meet and, you know, not necessarily to extract the discussion, but just to, so that they realize that there's a voice or ears that they can, you know, rely on if they want to talk. And then you know they've also all come up with their own what they call employee assistance program where, if you want to talk to someone, they have contracted with companies where you can talk to a therapist or a psychologist who doesn't work for the organization, so that what you say is protected by law as confidential discussions. Yeah, so I think that again, these things didn't exist when I started my law enforcement career 35 plus years ago. But now they're there, which is encouraging because again, the culture has changed. It hasn't completely changed, but these are all steps in the right direction.
Speaker 1:Definitely, and I'm a big believer in healing and community, and I think there is something about speaking to other survivors that helps so much with healing, because they just seem to understand you on a level that no one else can, as I'm sure you can attest to if you speak to another fellow officer who was also there on the day of the 9-11 terror attacks.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean, those are awesome programs. So I wanted also just to sort of go back, because we haven't quite touched on it. But you mentioned that you were diagnosed with lung cancer and my question is because this was a time when you were still very much in, I presume, in denial when it comes to the PTSD. When you received the diagnosis, was that sort of a wake-up call for you to say, okay, I need to change the way that I am living my life and all the stress that I'm essentially putting myself through is now manifesting in my body? Or what was your reaction?
Speaker 2:Well, I had no symptoms or anything. I wound up. My wife gave me bronchitis, which turned out to save my life, because when I, you know, sought treatment for the symptoms of the bronchitis, they found out that I had lung cancer. But it was at that point that I realized, you know, when they removed my right lung and I did not need chemo therapy or radiation. Thankfully, because when they took out the lung they took out all the cancer with it.
Speaker 2:So I mean it was difficult because, you know, without that extra oxygen in your body, you know it takes a while for your body to get used to it. So climbing a flight of stairs for that first year was difficult. Walking long distances was very, very difficult, but now it doesn't really bother me much at all. I mean I can't go run very fast or very far, but other things that I used to do I can do again, but very fast or very far. But other things that I used to do I can do again.
Speaker 2:But it was at that point when I realized, you know, that my physical health was affected. You know I knew that my mental health wasn't good. I remember when I came out of surgery, I remember seeing my wife and my daughter there and my son was with the Coast Guard, so he wasn't there because he was working. And I remember thinking to myself about all the memories that I had, of all these great cases that I worked as an investigator and of all the things that I had done at work. And I didn't have as many memories with my family because when I was on vacation I always put work first. I was answering phone calls and emails on the weekends. I was thinking about, you know, my cases that were waiting for me when I got back on Monday, thinking about my cases that were waiting for me when I got back on Monday.
Speaker 2:So it was at that point that I realized that here my body, at this point I didn't know if I was going to survive or not, but I was like I need to make the future better than I made the past and I need to put more effort into my family because if I can't work anymore here, I put so much effort into the job, not as much effort into being a husband and a father, that it was time to fix that and to make the memories, because you can't make up for that lost time, but you could certainly make the times from that point forward better. So that's really what I focused on was just trying to be more engaged and to put my phone down when I wasn't at work and to not answer the emails and to give my family the time that they had deserved for many, many years. You know, at least I could fix it from this point forward.
Speaker 1:Wow, and it's funny how, when we faced with our mortality in that way that we get a different perspective on life, we see all the things that we've missed out on. We realize the things that are really important in life.
Speaker 2:Yes, without a doubt.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, pete, you are an author and I mean you've spoken about your career, your stellar career that you've had in the NYPD as well as the ATF, and you're also an author. Your book is called the Deadly Path how Operation Fast and Furious and Bad Lawyers Armed Mexican Cartels. Your book, essentially, is available on Amazoncom. Yes, and I took a look at some of the reviews for your book and I mean your book essentially reads like a novel, but then I guess you realize no, it's not a novel, this is real life. This is something that actually happened. And when I looked at the reviews, I mean there were so many amazing reviews that you got and I actually just want to read some of these reviews for the listeners. The one review says it grips you like a gritty crime novel. Until you remember it's an accounting of one of America's most troubling and deadly law enforcement failures.
Speaker 1:Pete courageously stepped forward, risking his career to end Fast and Furious. The media blamed gun dealers, but Pete showed they helped ATF to stop gun trafficking. Their cooperation was betrayed by those responsible for Fast and Furious Eon Grillo. He wrote Pete Forcelli served on the front line trying to stop gun trafficking, with the cartels on one side and a clumsy government bureaucracy on the other. If you want to understand why the Iron River of firearms flows so fiercely and the challenges of federal operations, you need to hear his story. When I looked into your book, I was completely captivated. I immediately went on a complete research. Looked into your book. I was completely captivated. I immediately went on a complete research. Do you want to share? Just give us some background as to why you wanted to write this book, based on the experiences of your participation as a whistleblower when it comes to Operation Fast and Furious.
Speaker 2:Sure. Well, when I worked in New York, we made a real impact on reducing violent crime by going after people who mishandled firearms and those who trafficked firearms to bad people, to criminals. So when I got to Arizona, I saw something that was vastly different. I saw that my agents would do the things that agents did all over the United States, which was, you know, they followed the law and if they saw something suspicious they would investigate it. They would take action and then, when they would refer those cases to prosecutors, more often than not roughly 90% of the time the prosecutors didn't care. They wouldn't act upon it, which means that if you can't stop these people from buying firearms for Mexican cartels, they're going to continue to do it. So this went on for quite some time and you know we weren't aware that the agents involved in that investigation were doing this. So, but at some point, a Border Patrol agent was murdered with a gun that was trafficked as part of that investigation that they were working on, this Fast and Furious group which would, which, instead of stopping the cars and asking questions and doing the things that we did, they would just document things and let the guns go, so basically ride off into the sunset where they could potentially be used against people. And so once I found out about this and I found out after the Border Patrol agent was killed and another agent in that group who knew what they were doing stepped forward and blew the whistle. So there was talk that the prosecutors, who wouldn't prosecute the cases that we brought them, were now going to prosecute a whistleblower. So that's why I stepped forward and talked to Congress and talked to investigators about what had happened there.
Speaker 2:Now, the reason I wrote the book, to be candid, was, like other scandals in government, they buried the story. So when you would talk about, well, why don't we teach what happened here so that it doesn't repeat itself? We would always be told no. And at the end of my ATF career I was the head of training. So again I persisted why don't we teach agents what happened in Fast and Furious so that it doesn't happen again? And I would always be told well, the Department of Justice and ATF doesn't want to talk about it. So you can't fix what you're not going to talk about, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:So as I was retiring, I decided that it was important to tell the actual story because you know, if you watch the scandal. On TV you heard very political versions of what happened, the Democratic version or the Republican version, which are the two major parties in the United States. Obviously so, but because the news organizations are so aligned with those two political groups, you never heard what really happened. And my concern was if you don't talk about it and explain what happened, it can very easily reoccur. You know the old saying those who don't know about history are bound to repeat it. So I wrote the book for that reason.
Speaker 2:And then another big reason was the family of that border patrol agent who was killed in the line of duty, who was doing his job, who was, by all accounts, a phenomenal law enforcement officer. His family was never given the answers that they deserved as to what happened. So I wanted them to know, and I couldn't obviously tell them when I was an ATF employee because ATF didn't allow us to talk about it. I could have been in trouble.
Speaker 2:So once I retired I was free to discuss things openly and honestly, and that's what I did. And what I'll say about the book is I didn't write anything that I didn't see or personally witness, because there was a lot of other things that could have been said, there were a lot of allegations that were made, but I didn't want to go down that path of speculating or getting caught up in the politics of it, so I just stuck with what I saw and what I personally witnessed and told the story that way, so that perhaps the family will learn some of the things that happened the family of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry but also that some of the agents that I worked with or the newer agents coming on the job now will be aware. So something like that never happens again.
Speaker 1:Well, I can tell you that it was a very courageous act and I want to commend you for actually standing up for something that is right and for the justice of the deceased agent, because you know, as a whistleblower it's often so difficult, because you want to do the right thing, you want to remain true to your values, but you know you find that the world almost turns against you when you do that and in your case you know you almost lost your job, your possessions, your reputation. So I want to commend you for having the courage to actually do that, despite having gone through a tremendous difficult time in doing so when you get sworn into a law enforcement position.
Speaker 2:In the United States, you swear an oath to the Constitution, which is a document that's several hundred years old, but the reality is I always viewed that as giving my word to the people of this country, and so I didn't swear an oath to a president or to a cabinet secretary or to some agency director. My oath was to the people, and I truly believe that you're only as good as your word. And look, I 100% understand that people don't always get things right every time. You know that you're going to make mistakes, but I think you have a duty, if you make that mistake, to own it. You know to take ownership of that mistake. And if you're a leader, you have a duty to correct the mistakes that are made. But also you need to own the mistakes your people make because you're their leader. That didn't happen, which was not what the people of this country expected. So I just I did what I thought I was expected to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, that's always the case where you're dealing with bureaucracy and you're faced with all kinds of coverups because there's bureaucracy within governments and then of course, you know, on the other side you have the Mexican cartels. You have like the Fast and Furious which was part of the operations. I think Fast and Furious was one of the operations under Project Gunrunner, if I'm not mistaken. I think I read that somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but see, that's what I mean when I said the politics. That's actually not correct. Like, project Gunrunner was something that was put together years earlier that was designed to fund the operations of many ATF offices, to include the office in Yuma, which fell under me. So what happened was, when Fast and Furious happened, people started pointing fingers. But the reality is Fast and Furious wasn't even a program. It was one case that was horribly managed. That happened in Phoenix. It didn't start in headquarters. It wasn't something that was started by President Obama, which some people on the Republican side said, and then the Democrat side was saying well, no, no, it started earlier than that, under President Bush. That's not true either.
Speaker 2:What happened was this wasn't a program. It was a case in one field division that was handled by one group, one out of seven. And that's why I really wanted to write the book, because if you do the research, you'll see that there's some things in there that again, no one took accountability for what really happened. And look, did Obama cause Fast and Furious? No, but did he hold anybody accountable for what happened there? No, not either. So again, the politics in many ways was the problem, and that's why most of the American people don't really know what happened. There is because both sides and again I'm not pointing fingers at any one side both sides made, you know, made it foggy, the fog of war, so to speak, because they were trying to protect each other's you know political interests.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I remember. I mean I read some of the information when I was doing some research on CNN, which I think is a Democratic news outlet in the United States.
Speaker 2:Democratic news outlet in the United States. It leans Democratic, which is funny because in the report there were two reporters who I trusted because they didn't get political. One was William Lajeunesse. He's with Fox News. The other is Evan Perez, who was with the Wall Street Journal. Well, evan Perez is now with CNN and William Lajeunesse is still with Fox News. But what I credited them for was that they didn't get caught up in the political side of things. They reported the facts as they were. There was no speculation or twisting things, which I think is important for the media to do right. I mean, when you turn on the news, you want it to be the actual news, not like an interpretation of the news.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I remember that the report actually stated that there were several members of the drug cartel I think it was seven members in total that were sentenced to, mostly life sentences for the murder of the agent and several of the senior ranking ATF officers some retired, some were moved into other divisions.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So there was definitely action taken in the end and I'm glad that your book can also provide and shed some light and give the families some closure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which was what it was intended to do. But the reality is some of the people who were involved in the case are still there. I mean, some of the people who have blood on their hands, in my opinion, still work for the government. So the accountability wasn't as thorough as it could have been, but, yes, some people were held accountable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I say Because when I read it I thought to myself hmm, this person was just reassigned essentially to a different division, right yeah, in those two situations, whereas with the cartel members, some of them that were extradited for the trafficking of the firearms that was used in the murder, they were in fact sentenced and sent to prison. You can't always just believe what you hear and see on the news. You have to make sure that you've got the facts. And so, again, I'm going to say it again, I absolutely commend you for writing this book and getting the truth out there, pete.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Thank you so much Again. It was my duty.
Speaker 1:And your book had amazing reviews. You can find Pete's book on Amazoncom. I'm going to leave a note in the show notes so you can easily find it, and please do me a favor and leave him a rating and a review. That's very important, pete, is there anything, any last words that you feel inspired, that you want to share with the listeners before we close?
Speaker 2:I want to thank them for their time and I want to thank you for what you're doing, because I think the whole concept of taking care of yourself and recognizing that, you know, just because you've survived trauma and you may have PTSD and you may be dinged up and scarred, doesn't mean that you're completely broken, you know. I think, as I like to say, it's okay to not be okay. It's not okay not to do something about that. So the fact that you're inspiring people to recognize, you know, the results of trauma and to understand PTSD and to understand the importance of seeking help is so, so important. So to have me here and to give me the opportunity to talk to you and your listeners was a tremendous honor and I want to say thank you for that.
Speaker 1:You are very welcome, pete. I was absolutely thrilled and incredibly excited to have you on. I've been talking to all my friends and family and telling them so they are all waiting for this episode and I'm very honored to have you share your journey and also just give us some private and personal insights into your experiences at 9-11, as well as your work within the ATF and your book, and thank you very much for speaking on this topic. That, for men in general, is something so difficult to talk about. I think that you know men generally. You know they don't want to talk about their emotion and they don't want to acknowledge that. You know they have to ask for help. I think it's one of the more difficult things to do. I mean, I sometimes find myself struggling asking for help. So thank you for, you know, basically setting the trend for others to follow in your footsteps.
Speaker 2:Pleasure.
Speaker 1:So, thank you so much. Thank you for joining me and you're welcome to come and join me when you publish your next book. And we're all excited about that.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you, take care Bye. That wraps up this podcast episode. Thank you for listening. If you enjoy my podcast, please take a minute to give me a rating and review in Apple Podcasts. Please subscribe in your favorite podcast directory so you don't miss an episode. Please consider following my Scented Life on Facebook and Instagram for daily inspiration. Thank you so much for spending this time with me. You can catch me again in the next episode Same time, same place, sending you lots of love and light. Bye.