MSCHE Pillars of Change
MSCHE Pillars of Change
Episode 1 - Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner, President of SUNY Buffalo State
In the inaugural episode of MSCHE's Pillars of Change, Dr. Davie Gilmour, President of Pennsylvania College of Technology and Vice-Chair of the Middle States Commission on Higher Education interviews Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner, President of SUNY Buffalo State, who also serves as an MSCHE Executive Committee member.
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Dr. Davie Gilmour:Welcome to the Pillars of Change podcast presented by the Middle States Commission on Higher Education. I'm Dr. Davie Gilmour, president of the Pennsylvania College of Technology and vice chair of the Middle States Commission on Higher Education. I'd like to thank you for joining me for the first of a series of podcasts, focusing on the topics of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Perhaps there are no more recent topics that have generated as much energy and conversations such as those. And most importantly, a need for conversation and change. Over the course of its history, the identity of the Middle States Commission on Higher Education has been closely aligned with assuring trust and instilling confidence in higher education. As an institutional accreditor, the Commission prides itself on advocating for honest, self-reflection that results in meaningful change at our institutions. Encouraging institutional change has never been more important than it is today where institutional actions, policies, or procedures may reveal the disparate impact on an increasingly diverse student population. For institutions that share the results of deep and thoughtful self-reflection the Commission supports and applauds their efforts because the commission recognizes that it holds an important voice and space within the higher education community. It has launched this podcast series to spotlight highly effective institutional practices that have made a difference in the lives of our students through diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives. Today, we are talking with Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner, President of SUNY Buffalo State, who also serves as a commissioner with the Middle States Commission on Higher Education and chair of the board of the National Campus Compact among numerous other affiliations. Kate, who was recently recognized by Buffalo Business First with the 2020 Woman of Influence Life Achievement Award is regarded for pushing the college's vision for diversity, equity, and inclusion. Welcome Kate. T hank you questions. My first question for you today is what is your sense of race, diversity, and inclusion in our country today? U m, our country is, u m, more diverse than
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner:Has ever been in, uh, through its inception. Uh, and of course we know as higher education educators that our student bodies are more diverse than ever before. Um, this has been well-documented in many, many reports and the recent ACPE, uh, race, ethnicity, and higher education report of 2019 and 2020 certainly reminded us of how important it is to understand the diversity of our campuses. So when I think about the sense of race, diversity, and inclusion today, I have to first begin to think about how diverse our communities really are and how diverse many of our campuses are today, but it's clear that issues of race, um, diversity inclusion are quite contested in lots of ways. That it is not just about the numbers, is not just about the obvious diversity, but it really means different things to different people. So for some the issues of, uh, of a highly diverse community really points to the richness of diversity and importance of diversity in our campuses and something to be really celebrated and something to really help us understand how important the connections are across many different groups. However, for others, it means more of a sense of otherness, uh, an opportunity to marginalize people, um, a sense of putting people on a hierarchy so that some people are better than others. And so we know that it just has a really different meaning, uh, with different, different people. Uh, historically this country has had an opportunity to embrace diversity, but has failed to do it in lots of ways. And we've seen it with multiple different groups over different years, who the other is, who the negative stereotypes are focused at, um, and how that some people have just never been able to break into some of the advantages that this country has. And so the, we know that's really been very, very difficult for us, but the reality is that in our day-to-day lives, that diverse people come together in all kinds of ways in the workforce, you know, and our social life in our communities. And so that the notion of not celebrating diversity and seeing people as in some negative stereotypic way is a disadvantage for, um, our country or for our schools, for our communities. And so, um, it is really something to, to really grapple with. And then the sense of inclusion is what does it mean to be really inclusive? It means more than just bringing people into whatever network you're talking about, but do they have voice? Do they have opportunity? You know, are they listened to, and, and can they share their perspectives in a way that it makes a difference? And so, so, so I, I feel that in today's world, um, that we've come a ways that not as far as we wished we had come, and that may be somewhat of a surprise for some. Maybe, but not for me. And maybe not that great for you as well. Um, this difference of seeing disparities between, uh, people of color and people that are characteristic characterize as white is not new. As a girl in the seventies, it was on the front pages there. And certainly, you know, if we look back to the sixties and the fifties and the forties, it was there, and really you'd go back all the way and you can find, um, historical legacies of discrimination in this country. And so prejudices and discriminations is something that we need to continue to fight about. And in fact, one person told me that if you've ever had to have a law to provide you entrée into something, you know, you're in one of those groups. So whether you're a woman or a person of color, or a person, uh, that's from a gay community, a person with a disability, whatever that, you know, if you had to have a law to allow you to do something that others can do, then, you know, you're part of that camp and you have not been included. So I think it is a topic that's very important. It's very salient to me and to many. Um, but it is not one that we've gotten right yet.
Dr. Davie Gilmour:Thank you. I really appreciate your comment about if you have to have a law that really gives me pause, and I think it will give our listeners some pause as well as they think about the rest of our conversation. So what role do you think higher education plays in enhancing or altering this conversation on diversity inclusion on our individual campuses?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner:Well, I think it's a basic principle. Higher education really embraces the importance of diversity and inclusion. And so that, it's something that we often frame our conversation around the importance of educating all. People from all walks of life. Many of us like here at Buffalo State, we have a lot of first-generation students. And so you're really providing an opening for a group of students that perhaps did not have the advantage before. And you know, that it will create a trajectory that will really not only enhance that individual, but their families for the future. Um, and so higher education really has a really special role in that ability to open a door for people that have been blocked from entering into that space, which means that they have been blocked from careers and aspirations that they may have had, or that they may have thought over the family may have had with them. So, you know, we play an important pivotal role in that space for individuals. We also play an important role in thinking about how to have conversations around, uh, race, diversity, and inclusion. The higher education is that one space in our world where we really encourage different opinions, different dialogue, civil dialogue, uh, and bringing people together to have different perspectives. And so we, uh, that as well, honed in our campuses, even if you're not on a diverse campus, my campus more than 50% of the students are from diverse backgrounds, but even not, you know, it is a part of education that we want to bring diverse voices. And so that's something that we have practiced in higher education. Um, we also, uh, not only bring diverse voices, but we foster, uh, civil discourse. Like how do you have a conversation with someone where you disagree with them, or you don't understand their perspective? That's a perspective I've never heard of before. That's a question I would never think of before. So I think that higher education has a really important role because we have really understood the importance of diverse voices. Um, and also I think that we appreciate the rigor of looking deeply into a topic. And so maybe someone is not so aware of the disparities in healthcare or mental health or wealth attainment, you know, but in higher education, what do we do? We lead research and science to that exploration. So there's really no fault that someone doesn't understand a topic fully, but what are higher education says, okay, well, let's bring in the experts. Let's bring in that information. Let's open up that topic so that you really understand what originally what is really going on. So by the nature of what we do and how we do it and the method of which we go about exploring topics and the absolute requirement that you can have diverse, uh, discussions, uh, in a civil manner, puts higher education in a place where you really can channel and, and challenge each other in a way that you can truly learn and not just closed down, because you've heard something that you don't want to hear or that it doesn't fit what you knew before. Uh, and so I think it does offer an opportunity for us all. And as a model for the country of how to have these robust discussions,
Dr. Davie Gilmour:No, I couldn't agree with you more. And over the past six to nine months, as we look at the racial climate in our communities and across the country, there are two statements that I've heard repeatedly. Um, and so I'd like to share those two statements with you and then have you to them, if you would, first one is statements of support are important to solidify the position of a college or university. And the second one is actions and engagement are the hallmark of an institutional position and change. Do you see those as different complimentary? How do you react to those two statements?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner:Well, actually I see them as complementing each other. Then I think that is higher education leaders. We have to make clear statements and articulate the value of your institution and of education to your constituents and if your constituents can not hear from you the clarity of the principles that you set up on are just not articulated and throughout a reverberating in your community. So I think the statements are important, but they're not enough. And that once you make that statement and make that clear statement about what you believe in and how you believe in it, but you have got to back it up with two actions. So therefore, what does that mean for your institution? What does it mean for reflection that your institution may need to do? What does it mean for, uh, actions your institution needs to take? What does it mean in terms of partnerships that's real institution needs to make? So I think that those both are just really important and that they compliment each other compliment each other, and it can't be just one or the other. And I guess even, you know, as you say that you've heard those two statements recently, I really think about, you know, what occurred, when the social justice issues began to bubble up, uh, in our country. And certainly within our higher education discussions, when, uh, George Floyd was killed and Briana Taylor and the one after the other, you just kept seeing these horrific things occur. That, as I said, we're not new. You know, we've been seeing these, you know, for many, many years and as a woman of color, I must admit each time they hurt my heart every time that you see them. But, um, as they occurred, um, our higher education community began to put out statements of support around social justice and around black lives matter. And certainly I think those are really important. And for some institution, maybe it was the first time they had, you know, articulate it clearly to their constituents, um, the institutional value of, uh, justice and fairness, um, for others, uh, like our campus, these are values that we talk about a lot, so it was not new, but still yet people are hurting, you know, that the pain was clearly there and they needed to hear and be reminded how we feel about those things. So how we feel about injustice anywhere and how we need to approach and try to, uh, attack and correct injustices when we see them. Um, but was, was also important though, was like, okay, so that's true. You know, we are educators and people sometimes, you know, blame us for thinking and not doing what does that mean for your campus? And I think that each campus needed then to go the extra step of saying, okay, what does that mean? What am I going to do for, you know, because of this and, you know, one of the things that happened on our campus, is it just kind of right after that occurred after the George Floyd, uh, um, killing occurred, we discovered that one of our residence halls, uh, was named for a man who had owned, um, African-Americans as slaves. And so, so what are we going to do about that? So, you know, really going through a process really quite quickly of saying that this is inconsistent with who we are and what we stand for, and we will take that name off that residence hall, even though we don't have another name there to replace it right now, it'll be a more general hall. And in the future, we will do some good vetting about who we want to celebrate, you know, because we want to celebrate the people whose names we see on our campus. And so we were able to quickly make that change as I clear action, just to line up with the statement of our belief in social justice. Um, and then since then we have convened a committee that is looking for a, a permanent manifestation that celebrates, uh, social justice. And so, you know, we're putting a call out to a community to, to make recommendations what it should look like and where it should be, so that we really have something on our campus that we can actually point to that says that this was put in place as an affirmation to, um, how we feel about social justice and affirmation that will live on way beyond me and any of us, uh, to understand, uh, where we are with social justice. So I think the action is so important and the type of action there is between who you are and our campus and your history, you know, but taking the extra step I think is important to do.
Dr. Davie Gilmour:Absolutely. I agree with you and you've led perfectly into my next question for you because you've given examples of what a committee is doing a group formed on your campus. So what role does the college president play in this? Um, you know, we're sitting here as two college presidents, but so what is the presidential role in addressing diversity and inclusion on a campus?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner:I think that it is our role to both, uh, make sure that we're living our principles and so that we are going through or leading our campus through careful reflection and evaluation and assessment of the work that we do. Uh, and the institutional practices that we have, uh, to assure that they really, um, you know, meet the goals and principles that we articulate. And then I would secondly say that it is important for us to be visible reminders to our community of this importance. And so what we say matters, what leaders say matters, what leaders talk about, what they include really matters. And so that we have the wonderful opportunity to talk to many constituents and people listen to us, whether they're students or faculty or staff or alums or partners, we have to make sure that we are communicating the value of the institution, uh, often and, uh, in a total way so that people are clear of where the institution stands as embodied in the very important position as president.
Dr. Davie Gilmour:Thank you. What do you think have been your greatest challenges and greatest opportunities in advancing these efforts of diversity and inclusion on your campus?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner:I think my greatest opportunities have been the amazing people around me that they provide openings and ways that perhaps, um, would not have come from a committee, but because of their own passion. So tapping into the amazing faculty and staff that, that really do great work in this space and not thinking that it's all about you or all about the presidential committee of equity and diversity that I have, which is a great committee and, you know, and reviews things. And that stinks. It makes recommendations, but some of the best ideas really have come from those really great members of your community that are quietly investing in, uh, social justice work, equity work, diversity work that needs to be celebrated. And oftentimes it can then turn into something larger for the community or provide a partnership with others, um, in our community. So, so the opportunity really is in the people. In the passion and the commitment, and then the dedication of the folks that are already doing the work. That's, that's really consistent to our focus on, um, um, race equity and diversity. Uh, the challenges are the competing work that we're doing. Uh, we're standing in the middle of a pandemic, you know, so there's so many other things that compete for our time and our resources. And so it's quite a challenge to, um, keep this very important thing moving forward at the same sort of speed when you're stopping to make sure that new health and safety protocols are in place that frankly, a year ago, I couldn't even imagine thinking about. Um, so the competing priorities is a real challenge. Um, the resources in general, um, so sometimes are they're convenings that we want to do may, uh, I think campus community is our great conveners for issues and concerns around race, diversity, and inclusion, but they cost money to convene and, and to host. And so sometimes it's really the resources and, and certainly, you know, we're both aware of the defending of education, you know, uh, the, the many new and old ways that our resources are stretched. And so really having the resources to really do the, continue to do the heavy work. But I think that the creativity and innovation that we can show on our campus often allows us to find a way out of what seems like an impossible way. Right? So, uh, so those are the challenges,
Dr. Davie Gilmour:You know, Kate, you know, you mentioned an incredible challenge because some of this convening of these folks and the campus people are amazing, and we have this initiative and this creativity that happens across campuses, but that's difficult now, a bit more difficult in this virtual environment where we're trying to convene a larger group of people for discussion. So I think your points are really well taken, and then you add the pandemic to it. So you've now teed me up perfectly for my next question. How can the lessons you've learned in this incredible year of 2020, um, position you well for the future when it comes to these topics of diversity inclusion, social justice? Yeah,
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner:Absolutely. And the lessons we've learned in 2020 there have been so many of them. Um, well, one of the lessons I've learned is that there's so much more work to be done than perhaps I, or you thought we had to do, um, before 2020. And certainly before, you know, the last few years where, um, the divisions have just erupted in, in our country, uh, hatred and racism has bubbled up and ways that really, I thought that was a thing of the past to this level. You know, certainly we knew there was still much to fight on this level, much more work to do, but I really, um, you know, think that before the last few years, I really thought we were in a better place, a better foundation to build on. Now I realize that, you know, some of the basic sort of tendons really have to be, you know, uh, sured up and really reestablished, uh, around this. And so, um, so I really, this year has, has taught me that, um, my work is far from done and that the work of all of us together as far from done and that we really have to continue the fight really, uh, for, uh, inclusion across our campuses and really celebrating and, and maintaining and developing greater, um, legs for social or justice. I would say also, uh, 2020 has also showed me that, um, we always have to be ready for the unexpected and to do things in ways that are totally new for us. Uh, I would have never imagined that we could have the kind of programs that we do now virtually and have them be successful. But one of the hallmarks of our campuses as the day that we call, um, Buffalo State Dare to Care, and it's a day that hundreds of us go out into the community and engage in social service together. And we really work with a lot of the communities that are struggling. A lot of the nonprofit programs, and it's just a really wonderful day for us. And the community looks forward to it. We usually have 40 or 50 different programs that we link together with. And then the pandemic comes. As I'm sitting down with our wonderful director for the center for civic engagement. And I'm thinking, how on earth are we going to do something this year? So how can we learn from it? And she came up with this amazing rather than a day of dare to care. We got a day dare to care a month where we really brought in partnerships for partners virtually who talked to our students and our students talked to community members, and we had amazing robust discussions and planning on, on work in this, in this sphere around, you know, caring for people that are marginalized and so forth that I just couldn't have imagined. So what I learned was that, um, even though it may be something really different, you can find a way to do the good work. You can find a way to stay connected and that this virtual space. So it is certainly not my preferred mode mode. I rather be in your living room or in your office talking with you, but there's so much we can get done, uh, even in a virtual format. So, so the innovation and creativity that we have learned I will maintain, and I think higher education will maintain and really all industries that there'll be lessons learned a way to do things that we never imagined that actually are not just good, but are perhaps even better than some of the things that we did before. And then of course the lesson of more work to be done, more work to be done
Dr. Davie Gilmour:So as you look to the future, you know, we're looking to a new year, a new calendar year in 2021 with lots of new things across our country and across, you know, colleges that we're still dealing with, pandemic, et cetera. What has all of this taught you and how will this impact your work on your campus for your students in diversity, inclusion, and social justice?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner:Yes. I mean, I think it's going to impact my work in lots of ways. Uh, what saw was that the communities that were disadvantaged before the pandemic are in worse shape now than they were before. So the gap between them meeting their needs on whatever level is greater than now. So that will really inform my work. So we're already thinking about how we can work with our donors and our supporters to better support our students, to close more gaps. We'd already had things like emergency funds and, you know, close the gap and, you know, all those kinds of things, scholarship monies, but we know that we have to do even more, that we have to help people that have the means, understand that this space has further disadvantaged those people that they were helping before. And if you were helping at a certain level, now they need more help. So that is really a space that we will absolutely enter into as we move forward. The students that we, um, uh, recruit and come to our campus, uh, often are students who are already invested in, um, sort of community and social justice, cause that's kind of what our campus is about. And so they're attracted to us. Uh, and so we know that what we're learning from this space means that we have to help them to connect even more than before, because they're going to see the kinds of disadvantages, perhaps they, before those of us on campus, we'll see them. And so, um, so we'll need to help them, you know, close those gaps and enter those fields in an informed way, such that they're best prepared to lead and be the leaders that they're going to be as they live on campus.
Dr. Davie Gilmour:Thank you. You know, Kate, this has been a great conversation and I really appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions and have this discussion. We certainly know that your efforts and that SUNY Buffalo State will be an inspiration to other institutions and where we individually and collectively can fulfill our responsibilities for promoting more social justice society to our listeners. I want to thank you for joining us. If you want the commission to highlight the efforts of your institution in a future podcast, then please visit msche.org slash pillars of change and submit your suggestion on behalf of the Middle States Commission on Higher Education and our guest, Dr. Kate Conway-Turner, I'm David Gilmore saying, thank you.
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