How do you divine?

BRAVERY| Navigating Corporate spaces and entrepreneurial courage with Chantel George

• How do you divine? • Season 3 • Episode 6

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In this insightful episode of 'How Do You Divine?' we sit down with Chantel George, the inspiring Founder and CEO of Sisters in Sales. Chantel shares her journey towards bravery, inspired by her father's entrepreneurial spirit and her own unique experiences navigating corporate America. We delve into the origins of Sisters in Sales, a global community empowering women of color in sales, and explore the importance of authenticity, diversity, and resilience. Tune in to hear Chantel's powerful insights on entrepreneurship, overcoming challenges, and the crucial role of bravery in achieving success.

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Songs Mentioned in this episode:

  • GBM Nutron Feat. Fay-Ann Lyons - Scene
  • GBMNutron - Down Dey (Uncle Joe Riddim)
  • PARDY. Machel Montano 
  • Carry It. Bunji Garlin

Thank you for listening and for always adding new dimensions to your definitions. Keep growing, keep exploring, and keep defining life on your terms.🌐 Explore the new website www.howdoyoudivine.com
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Meet our Founder & Host 🎙️
Sanika is a storyteller, communicator, and creator passionate about exploring self-discovery, culture, and the power of words. With a background in technology and marketing communications; she has built a platform dedicated to authentic conversations that inspire growth, challenge perspectives, and amplify voices.

As the host of How Do You Divine?, she invites listeners to redefine meaning, embrace transformation, and navigate life—one word at a time. Her mission? To create space for reflection, empowerment, and deeper connections through storytelling.



Speaker 2:

Welcome back to how do You Divine? Where we explore how one word has transitioned over the course of our life. We are experiences and our definitions. And today we explore the word bravery with Chantel George, the founder, and CEO of Sisters in Sales. Sisters in Sales is a global force redefining sales leadership for women of color. Established in 2018, we've cultivated a thriving community of exceeding 12,000 powerhouse sales leaders across diverse industries. Our members consistently shatter revenue goals, dominating the sales landscape, and empowered by supportive network, skilled sharpened resources and exclusive events, partnerships that expand across multiple regions. We'd like to welcome Chantel George to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. This is so awesome. I feel like when I first met you, I was just blown away. Not only by you, you have like such. An infectious energy. Oh, thank you. But the community that you've cultivated, I keep saying, where have you been all my life. Thank you.

Speaker:

And you're amazing too, and I'm so appreciative to be here. Thank

Speaker 2:

you so much. Yes. So I, we are gonna explore bravery today, right? So I wanted to ask you how, tell me the road towards bravery for you. Tell me the early days where little Chantel was like, this is a brave moment.

Speaker:

Yeah. Okay. Good question. So I've had a lot of ideas as a child, like very silly ideas, very serious ideas, like everywhere in between. Um, and my dad was like my biggest champion for my entrepreneurial spirit and my growth and my experimentation. And he had worked for the city for 25 years as a building instructor, uh, building inspector and retired by the time I was born. So I was a late baby. Nice. Yes. It came with some

Speaker 2:

challenges.

Speaker:

Listen, there's

Speaker 2:

challenges on both sides. That

Speaker:

is, there is. But my dad had remarried late in life again. And his wife, my mom wanted a child. And so my dad is um, 60 I think already by that time. And so he's starting over now with me. Aww. And so he, the apple of his eye, he has so much wisdom to pass on to me. And basically he was moving into entrepreneurship at the same time that he was being my dad. And so I watched him take all of his lessons from being a building inspector and turn it into starting his own real estate enterprise. And so when I would come to him with ideas, he would just say, just jump in, just do it. Just,'cause he was, you know, when you talk to other entrepreneurs, that's the energy they give you. It's like, let's just do it. Yeah. We gotta try. Right. They're go deep. Yeah. Yeah. They're very like passionate about just getting started to imagine. I'm like 5, 6, 9, 10. And that's his answer for everything. Oh my God. Because he's already such's a blessing though.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. While I'm like, whoa. But that's such a blessing where I think other parents, that's what I'm saying, it's a blessing on both sides.'cause I think other parents, they're more like, all right babe, calm down. Yeah. Go to school, right. And relax.

Speaker:

No, not when you're like the kid of a much older dad who has gone out on his own. And you know, I'm doing sales calls with him and I'm his first secretary. Nice. Yeah. So I watched the beginning journey of an entrepreneur by watching how he moved and how he operated and how he was not afraid to take risk. So I think that it's embedded in me. To take calculated risk and but they're both gone now. So my dad and my mom passed away over the years. That's okay. Um, and I still have that spirit in me. So we have this one body, you know, we're only here for a short period of time, good, bad, or otherwise we might as well try to actualize our dreams. And so that's how it all started.

Speaker 2:

That is so nice and it's so beautiful that at such a young age you were empowered to be a be not only an entrepreneur, but be a leader. Like, could you imagine him being like, yeah, that's my daughter. She's a secretary. She's, she's helping me close. Big, realistic. It's crazy. I know, but it also normalized it. Yeah. Right. Where I think from, like for me, that's later in life where it's you're the one and only out here trying to be an entrepreneur girl, go, go to work. Yeah. You know? And where it's the opposite. That's so good. That essentially he helped embed and bravery in you.

Speaker:

Yeah. And I think that maybe this is a good thing for your audience to think about because I, I know that some people are afraid for entrepreneurship because they have a family and because they have a lot of rising responsibilities. But that is the benefit of, of building out loud in front of your family. Yes. They get to see you do things that inspire them to do those things. And even though they're both long gone, I do believe that they're seeing what I've done.

Speaker 2:

Yes. I a hundred percent. Yeah. They're like, look at my baby shine. Yeah. You said, when I tell you that touched me so deeply,'cause that's why I, for a long time, the podcast exists since 2020, but it was like, I don't wanna say my hidden secret, but it was like compartmentalized, right? I'm like, it's over here, right? While I do corporate member over there. And I realized that my daughters were seeing me compartmentalize in a way that didn't allow me to show up as my full self right now, since I've ripped the bandaid off, I wanna say for the last two years, they're so engulfed by it. They're like, mom, how do you do this? And what do, why would you do this? And it's just like, if it make, it gives me a different energy and purpose. oh wait. They're watching. Yeah. Everything I'm doing. Yeah. And they're seeing that, oh, in order to, maintain a nine to five and build your business. Yeah. We have long days, we have 18 hour days, and then I wake up and I do it again, that's so great that from an early age it became a normal thing to you. You know what I mean? So how did you navigate that feeling of not independence, but I can be a powerhouse on my own while working in corporate spaces? So tell us about your journey, right? You went to school, you entered corporate America.

Speaker:

Um, I always had a little bit of an untraditional journey. So, um, first and foremost I went to boarding school and that gave me a lot of independence. Yes. And it changed the way I thought about ownership of my own life. Because when you're 14, you live away from your parents. Like, you're not the, you know, corporate America is not your family. Right. Um, and I started to feel distance between the institutions that I was a part of and my individuality. These institutions are not my family. So you're 14 and you're living in a dorm and you have all this authority around you. Usually 14 year olds are around their parents and their parents give them rules on because of their own good. Yeah. But the, there was now this wall between myself and, the people that were caring for me in these, in this boarding school where I started to understand transactions.'cause it's, it's not familial and it's not, um, I won't say it's not warm, but it's familial is the only word that I can think of at this time. So, for example, if I need to. Spend my day in a way that helps me achieve my goals. I don't have to argue with you about it. You're getting paid to care after me. I just tell you what I'm going to do. I do those things and I'm back at the deadline. Right? So I have so much ownership over my life and my time when I would come home from boarding school and I would have the same idea. It wouldn't work that way.

Speaker 2:

No, no, no. You know, and I like you have a

Speaker:

Caribbean parent. Exactly. And like, there's this negotiation. Don't past, please. There's this back and forth. Yes, there's this. Well, you'd have to wash your dishes first. There's this Well, where, who you gonna be with? Where's you gonna do what you gonna wear? You know?

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker:

And so I had been oscillating back and forth between those worlds at a young age, you know, knowing how to deal with people that are not your family, but have authority over you and how to deal with people that are your family and have authority over you and have care for you. Um, and a lot of people enter the workplace thinking that work is your family, because that's their first time engaging with authority in that intimate way. And I had already had that from boarding school.

Speaker 2:

Interesting. So,

Speaker:

um, I knew that these people weren't, like, they're, you know, again, being paid to manage me. Yeah. So I didn't have the same emotional ties to management, um, as some other people did when they were entering those spaces for the first time.

Speaker 3:

Interesting.

Speaker:

Um, and so, yeah, so I did boarding school. I, I got a job in tech working, um, at, at Yelp in its early days. Um, actually somewhere around here where we're shooting, it was one of its first offices on in Union Square. Yeah. On 15th Street, actually. And I was one of the only black people there in the sales class. And, um, I, I gamified it. I was like, okay, these white boys are gonna do 90 calls. I'm gonna do 120 calls.

Speaker 3:

Yes. You

Speaker:

know, and I just, like I said, like I went into it with a mindset of their, you know, I am separate from this engine. I'm not emotionally necessarily connected in the way that some other people are, and I'm able to get the work done. And so I think I've always had that battery in my back when it came to that. And then I also, I was able to push back at the institution without bringing a lot of that, um, emotion, em, emotional headiness people, you know, when you have your first job, I don't know if you, you know, remember your first job and how psychological and how heavy that job is, or remember your first, if you've ever been fired or had tough conversation. I feel like you're disappointing a parent. Yes. You know, it's so heavy.

Speaker 2:

That is so interesting that you share that experience. Because I entered the corporate world with a similar, but not for that reason. Like, so I lived on my own very early, since I was 17 years old. So I've always had to learn how to manage my life. Like I signed myself up for college. I did all the things by myself. So when I entered the corporate world, I didn't even enter it as family. I entered it as. I am providing you a service. Yeah. You are cutting me a check.

Speaker 3:

Yep.

Speaker 2:

And because I like people, I very early on disconnected people from their roles. Yeah. You know what I mean? when it was time for business, I was like, no, no, no, that's not, no, thank you. That's not how this works. And I've seen that especially now in technology and I think post covid days where people, I don't know if enmeshed is the right word, but they start to think that work and personal are one. And there's no, I call it emotional cap.'cause that's the only way for me to articulate it properly. I'm like, there has to be an emotional cap when it comes to your professional career because you don't own this company. Right. You don't own this company and you're here to provide a service. So it's so interesting hearing from you that you kind of came into that because of your background. So you were like. I manage my day. I am giving you my day. This is how I'm gonna gamify my game. Yeah. It's so, yeah.

Speaker:

Interesting. And so because of that, I didn't feel bad building, you know, building initiatives that, that were purposeful to me. Um, because I've given you what you required and whatever I'm doing out of that time is my time.

Speaker 2:

Yes. And you don't own my Yes. You don't own my life. Yes. You don't own my, yeah. But it's so, but you get sucked

Speaker:

into it.

Speaker 2:

Yes. You can get,

Speaker:

yeah.

Speaker 2:

And it's also, I feel like it's this bad reward system. It's like the, you, they call it like the golden handcuffs in a way. Yeah, of course. Yep. Give me your entire soul. Yeah, yeah. And we'll go, oh, we love you so much. Here's a few dollars, here's, yeah. But then that's it still, it still doesn't make it yours.

Speaker:

Well, especially in tech, because that was my whole life, uh, my work experience. Yeah. And so, um, even though at the time the company was still, um, growing, it still had, uh, elements that kept you in the office. It had the beer and the keg, it had the pool table. It had, you know, um, the snacks and, you know, eat enough of those snacks. And it could be dinner, you know, you could end up hanging out till eight or nine o'clock. You know, a lot of those things just would just happen naturally because of the different perks and the elements of the office life. Um, and so you just end up giving more and more and more of your time unintentionally.

Speaker 2:

What do you think about that culture? Because it always rubbed me the wrong way. It really did. Like when I was in tech, when I was in fashion, that culture always rubbed me the wrong way. That. We are expected to be there. I, let's say nine o'clock, but I'm a morning person, so it's 8 45 to be ready for the 9:00 AM meeting.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Right.

Speaker 2:

But then there's this snacks, games, culture, and then you blink and it's like eight, nine o'clock, and people are talking about what we're going to do for dinner. And I'm just like, and I'm, I remember vividly multiple different places where I'm the only one checking for it at four 40. Yeah. I'm the one, like, the time will go off and I'm wrapping it up because I'm going home to my kids. Yeah. I have a family, I have right things to do and homework to check. Yeah. But it, it was like you leaving already? Yeah. It's five o'clock. Yes. It's time to go. It's time to leave. But what do you think about that culture?

Speaker:

Do

Speaker 2:

you

Speaker:

feel

Speaker 2:

like it's

Speaker:

part of. I mean, I can answer that in two po. Two, two ways. As a CEO, your job is to maximize profits and people, you know, the longer they do work for you, the more profit they can bring drive for you. So there is a reason that cultures are designed that way. It's to maximize the amount of revenue you can bring to that. Do I agree with it? No, but it exists because it works,

Speaker 2:

but it doesn't always work.'cause I would be there sometimes and then you have the time y'all hanging out, you really, it's only like four hours of real work. It's that

Speaker:

emotional tie though that they have. Oh yeah, you're right. Royal and the retention. Yes, you're right. That part about it is true and it's expensive to hire people. So I'd rather get you to be very like obsessed with this company.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Where even in your downtime you're thinking about it. I used to have dreams about deals. You know what I mean? Oh my gosh. I used to have dreams about DocuSign. So it just gets in, it just takes more and more and more of your capacity. Um, so I was able to build sis because I had some of those natural boundaries in my head. Um, and I was able to take time away and work on it, um, at night, on the weekends, you know, sometimes during the days

Speaker 2:

not

Speaker:

gonna

Speaker 2:

talk about that. Exactly. But, but yes, but also how, but when did you always start sis, right? Which is Sisters and sales. Did you always start sis out loud? I don't know if that's at the right term. Right, because like for me, I'm like, I built the podcast silently in a corner. But, but did you build sis out loud? Not out loud in the sense like, you were like, Hey, people I work with, I am building sis more like. You built it and you were like, whoever came across it, came across it.

Speaker:

No, the first, um, no, the, the former. I was like, I'm gonna build this. Um, well, it started with two things started at the same time. So first I started interviewing different sales professionals and getting their stories and writing blogs, putting it on, on a website. So that was pretty cool. I was very fascinated with people and how they got from here to there. Yeah. Very interesting. That's why I built this software. Same. I love it. I got to that point because I was tired of cold calling and feeling like I didn't know where this job was taking me and looking around and seeing that people were making career shifts. You know, this guy, I'm cold calling next to setting appointments, closing and pitching. Next thing I know he's like, director of sales at this startup. And I'm like, this guy. You know what I mean? Like, Bailey closing two deals. You know what? Oh my gosh. So that's why I was like, all right, when I say that too much going around. Something isn't, and I can't be here for four years. Yeah. And not have the tea. Yeah. So that's why like, so that was really like part of my exploratory, um, this, so yeah, I had to be open and bold about it.'cause I'm, I'm writing about people's stories, so you, but the other way that I created the events side of the business was having a dinner where I invited 10 sales professionals to dinner. And I also had to be pretty loud about it because I needed people to like latch onto the idea and be interested in the brands. Um, and I learned, you know, uh, I served predominantly black women. Um, while I think a lot about our professionalism, we like to go to nice things. You know, there's a statement that I read recently. You're starting a company that means you're starting a brand. Yeah. I never really saw myself as a brand, but, um, I needed to think like that because my consumers. Need to feel connected to my idea. Not just because it's practical.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. But

Speaker:

because it brings them a certain emotional reaction. And so like to do that, that meant I had to create a fancy dinner experience that people would like because it's not just enough to say, I'm giving you this professional development.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker:

They needed to feel like they were invited to this luxurious moment. And I realize these things have to always go hand in hand, even though like sometimes I think it's frivolous, I'm like, do I really have to do you got to. Yeah. That's just human nature. I can't change how people respond to brand. So the first private dinner was a private chef. I had pink, black, white tablecloths, I had flowers, I had candles. And the private chef is going around and catering to all these women and they don't have to lift a finger. Love it. And they're getting red wine and white wine and all these things. I love that. And I'm like, you know, most people's kickoffs, I think are a little bit more subtle. Yeah. But not how, not how we do

Speaker 2:

it over here. Say, okay, how you

Speaker:

doing here? And I just know my audience. And like, I also had an, um, a, I also had an a seed I wanted to plant in their head, which is that you're valuable. Yeah. And you are important. And I know that's what I was

Speaker 2:

thinking when you said that. Yes.

Speaker:

And when this dinner is over and you're gonna go back to your white space and you're gonna go back to having a fight. You know, for quota or having to fight your, your colleagues, I want you to remember that I thought about you, you know, the night before. So it it was twofold. Yeah. But, um, but yeah, I never really, I, I couldn't build small because I knew our audience. Yeah. They need to know that they're a part of something that's serious and that's beautiful and beautiful

Speaker 2:

because yeah, when I attend event, I was, that's what took me first. I was like, this is so beautiful. It was just like, but that's so, like, you're so right as you're saying that. I'm like, but it's true because, you know, what does I think does stay with people? It's, I'm one of people who attended year events and I was like, oh my God, I love this. Where it's been, it, it's just that sense of enough. You are enough. You are seen here because like you said, in these buildings and these spaces and these corporate spaces, it's like you could be valued as a contributor or as a leader, but there is something different about the beautification of being together. Yeah. That. Solidify something more. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? It, I don't, I don't know what it is. You can't tangibly put your finger on it, but it, it does make, even like you said, the internal bureaucracy of it all and just trying to get to quota and make these things not as impactful. This

Speaker:

is is also very masculine. Yeah. And so it's like you don't really get enough femininity in business and, um, because there's so much in, especially in New York, there's just so much backstabbing and there's so much just aggression and there's so much, you just have to be on edge a lot of the time. And so like, I just didn't want that anymore. It's like a relief of, you know, even you, when you came on, um, our, uh, platform yesterday and you talked and you were able to talk about your sales strategy. In a very sister like way

Speaker 2:

like

Speaker 3:

that. So Wonderful.

Speaker 2:

And say, and you know what's interesting? I, I get that a lot even from the people I work with.'cause I, I learned very early in my career that I'm not going to adapt to these environments. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you know how people are like, I am just, I'm a camouflage. Yeah. When I was in college, I was probably like 18 hard times. Baroque like, and it, I was just having a bad week. I remember had no clothes and I'll never forget it because my boyfriend at the time now, my husband said. Why don't you just buy five shirts from like Footlocker? Remember when Foot Footlocker or five different colored T-shirts for like$20 or something like that? It was crazy. But he was just like, you don't have those clothes. Just buy those and wear those to school. You'll be fine. Like, and that was his way of trying to cheer me up because I was just like, need to feel and like myself in the midst of all of this adversity. And I remember I bought like my, so I went to Long Island University. I bought like the sweats for the school, so I would just wear the sweats and one day I was just having a bad day and I like put the hoodie on and I hate hoodies. Fun fact, like that's not my vibe. I put the hoodie on and I went to class. My psychology teacher was probably like two months into school. I went to the back of the class and I just was doing my thing. And as he, he's like, sunga, I need to see you real sharp. And everyone was like, Ooh. And I was just like, this man don't even know me like that to me, calling my name like that. So then I was like, yes, professor, how can, what happened? And the way he classed me, Shannon, he was like, this, this, that you're doing, I don't know what's going on with you, but this will never work for you. You're meant to stand out. So when you do things like this, it makes you stand out more. So whatever's going on with you, figure it out. But don't come back to my class like this.

Speaker 3:

Wow.

Speaker 2:

The way I feel like he, yeah, I, I remember leaving the school in tears, going to the train station, like, this man don't even know me. Yeah. But he, yeah, he saw something in you, but he saw, he was like, this trying to hide makes you stand out more. He was like, if you didn't notice throughout the whole class, everyone just kept going like this. Because this is what you are, you come to class, you're engaged, you do stop this. And in that moment, something about that season in my life taught me that I stand out. Girl. Girl, you stand out like you do. And it's a beautiful thing. I, but you know, when you're just going through stuff, you just wanna be there, but just not be there. You just wanna get through it and be whole. I'm all about being like whole and well Sure. And that season of my life taught me like there's no hiding in life. Just be who you are. So when I got to corporate America, and like you said was like the one, sometimes the only woman, the only black woman at many companies, like the entire company. I was just this is who I am because I just, there was no running from it. And I also don't want, it's not my responsibility to make anyone else comfortable. So it was very much standing in Sonika. So I

Speaker:

remember when I interviewed for a sales manager role, my first interview, and I walked in the room, um, and there were like three people behind the table prepared to interview me. Um, I was a rep. I had done some work on the side to prepare. I knew that they were gonna go over my numbers and they were gonna go over my like, managerial perspective and maybe some role playing and some exercising. I walked in and I felt like, and I don't know if you remember feeling this or if you've ever felt this way, because we're so far away from those early days in our career, but I just, I put on like a persona, like I. I totally get what you need. I just like opened the door like, hello? Like, I just like Chantel. Why don't we all have the same experiences? It's so, it was so weird and I was like, and so obviously I didn't get it, but you know what I mean? But I did it again when I was myself. But to your point, one of the things that I learned about business that I learned from that very strange interview is that people trust, people they like, feel an authentic connection with. But if you put a mask or like this character in between here, then there's something in them that feels uncomfortable.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker:

That makes them not wanna do business with you or do anything with you. And so in my mind, I didn't have a lot of black women, women in general sales, sales managers to look up to. So I was impersonating a white man walking in the door and it was not me. And, and it's actually not. Like, and they watched me as a rep, so clearly they're like, like, who did she just become? She became somebody new. So I think that, um, you know, to your point about like standing out and like the way that you're able to relate to your clients and to your company and why they love you, why they all con continue to, you know, love you and wherever you go you'll have these reactions. It's because you're yourself and it's easier to trust someone if you can understand them. Yeah. You know, it doesn't mean that you're always gonna win business, but it just means that you don't get that icky feeling when you talk to someone. And like, I was giving that off because I wanted to be manager. Yes. Like, I don't, well, you know,

Speaker 2:

but it's, but it's fair though. Yeah. Because I, I remember the same where it was like fill in the gaps for them. Like, what are you, yeah. Like, I'm like, I'm black, but you're mixed with some, like, you know what I mean? It's, yeah. I remember those early days and I just, I just didn't like it. I always felt like. That's why I'm so strong in my faith. God gives me this compass of things that just don't feel good to me. Yeah. And it's hard it, when I tell you it's hard sometimes it's like heavy lifting. To even be in spaces and have certain conversations. And as I got older I started to trust it more where if it don't feel good, just just back up. If you have to say too much, if there's too much like winning and you know. Yeah. I don't, I always feel like I never want no one to feel I need to drag you in. Yeah. Or like hard sell you anything. Yeah. Because it's just is this honoring to the person. This is business. And funny enough on in our company, I'm one of the people that's always like, all right, now that we're done with the emotions, where are we with forecast? Where are we with what's happening? Because I understand the emotions of it all, but business is business and I can. See a person and talk to them about, listen, this is ideally what the numbers we want you to be. This is where we are now. Tell me how we bridge the gap. But I'm not going to manipulate you and tell you this is happening and this is not gonna happen. Because one, I don't wanna be part of all that. Like if I'm, if I'm true, if I'm honest, I'm such a strong believer in karma. I'm just like, I don't want none of this to come back on my kids just because we trying to make quota. Like I really don't like, I don't, it's true. I know I don't, and I don't want it. And it doesn't feel good. And I feel like, just going back to our experience in corporate America, I feel like a lot of people don't realize that in order to be successful, there's a lot of not feeling good moments that happen. That it's you're in a meeting and they're talking about it and it's yeah, we wanna get there. But it's just not, it's not how I wanna get there. You know? Like I've, I remember leaving a company saying this is not who I am. There was a dispute with a client and my mentor once said to me, if it's right for the client and it's good for the company, it's the right thing to do. And I always like how simple she put that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And there was just this abuse dispute, but what was right for the client and it was good for the company and the person that was supposed to champion, it just didn't feel like it was a priority. And I just, again, just separating that like church from state, the person from the job, I was like, it doesn't matter. Like this is how I feel I could, like, I could like or dislike something as sonika. But if it's good for the customer and it's good for the company, it's the right thing to do. Well,

Speaker:

I think that we don't always know if something is good for the customer because we are not talking to them and asking enough questions to be confident in that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Um, because we're so focused on showing up a particular way, we're so focused on our character. Yeah. Like showing up as if we're on a stage versus spending time to ask a ton of questions so that you can be confident. Like the more questions I ask and the more I can define the problem, the more confident I become. Yeah. Same. And like my confidence. And then that's why it was so funny, Joaquin doing that interview because I was like putting on this air instead of just like, instead of just like maybe asking like, why are you interested in me for management? Like, what about me? And then I would've learned that they liked me the way I was. Yeah. And that there was something about me that they were gravitating towards. But instead I. Didn't allow that flow of energy to go to and fro. And so I think that, um, you know, one of the, you know, active listening is important, obviously. so my non-traditional path included going to acting school and was conservatory

Speaker 2:

not That's so interesting. At school, yes, I did.

Speaker:

I I thought that I wanted to be an actor or director, but really more so an actor. Um, and so I went to conservatory for three years before going to Pace and then before going into the workforce. And some of the things that I learned about acting, um, have a lot to do with that fight between your consciousness of the things that you're doing and you know, the way that you behave in the world versus what you think that the character that you're playing is doing in the way that that character is behaving in the world. So, for example, when you're on stage, you're really not supposed to play a character. You're supposed to be yourself in the character scenario. So you're actually supposed to be closer to your individuality than becoming a someone else, because you can't be, there's no such thing as being like words on a page. It could only be how you would actually feel if these things happen to you. So when directors come to you in between takes and help you stay in the particular mindset, they're not saying, what do you think you know, Susan would do in this moment? It's like, how do you feel about the fact that, you know, God forbid your grandma just died. Mm-hmm. And you're supposed to think about what that means to you and

Speaker 2:

how that would make you feel and how you'd respond. Yeah. That is so, that's a good way to think about it. Yeah. Because I think, especially when we're in these spaces, when we're like the only, and we feel inferior and things like that. I do see that character, the, the safety in putting up this character. But like you said, it to me, that was very early on and after realizing that I couldn't hide, like I, it's also exhausting. Can't do that for years, decades. And to me, I just can't do that. I, I, I feel like it helped me learn like my strengths and my weaknesses. It's not something I can do. I always say like, what, earlier on when my kids were younger, I'd be like, listen, I don't even have the patience to pretend. Right. Like, I have to harness them like rice, greens, and triplets for my children when I go home. Like, I don't, yes. I don't have it to give. Right. So that's why I'm always like, I can, nothing I can do about it, there's, there's nothing I can do about it. Yeah. So I never thought about it as a character. What I used to think of before was your perception of who I am. And then I quickly was like, there's nothing I can do about that either. Nothing I

Speaker:

can do about that

Speaker 2:

either. There's

Speaker:

nothing I can do about that either. So you might as well not exhibit any energy trying to change this. Yeah. Change that. Put on this character. Correct. This perception just, it's so much easier and so much less work to just be who you are. Like I had a board meeting yesterday and I've been in many board meetings as an attend, like as a, as a member of the board.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And I've seen how people conduct the meetings and how serious it is and Very, and that's not how my board meetings go. Yeah. They're just full of enthusiasm.'cause I'm so excited. I'm like, Hey guys, I have this idea. What do you think? You know, let's brainstorm about it. And I think that they like it. I hope they like it. Yeah. You know, the way that we're doing it because they feel very interested and they're feeding off of my enthusiasm. Yeah. But if I had like put on this CEO very serious, like. Had, and like everything has to be this way. I amm hand away all the minutes. You know what I mean? Like I just think that nobody is interested. Well, it doesn't feel real. Yeah. It's different that that is my personality than Sure. But it's not. So, yeah.

Speaker 2:

But I also think you speak to something that I think people are experiencing in traditional corporate as well as being an entrepreneur. Like what does, what feels real? You know what I mean? Because I think a lot of people say like, I hate my nine to five, because they feel like I hate the environment. I hate who I have to be here. Yeah. And it's like, what part? To me, what parts of this is real for you? Because to me it's all about like learning and growing. If I'm not learning and growing, I'm dying. Like I'm a plan that way. It is just like, what am I doing here as an entrepreneur? The same. I'm like, I don't like to just do stuff to be doing stuff. Like I, I wasn't even, I, I've never been a partier, I've never been like, uh, if it's not not your birthday, please don't ask me. I like, I, I got things to do, laundry and all like, I like, I'm just like, please don't. But like, I don't wanna just do stuff to be doing stuff. And I think sometimes because of social media as an entrepreneur, you feel like you've gotta be out here. You have to be doing stuff. And I talk to other entrepreneurs, I'm well, what's the tangible outcome for that though? And that's why I love, my compass is time management with like micro professional, my professional career, my family. I'm just like, if I'm gonna give X I'm gonna need y. Yeah. I'm gonna need a Y because we just can't be out here. Willy Walling all over the place. So talk to me about like how you, because I feel like you, you were. Nurtured with this sense of bravery around you, how did you help cultivate others towards that bravery to build such an amazing community?

Speaker:

Hmm. Well, um, you know, I always used to say to my team that, and I, so I answer that question using the team first and then the community.'cause I am very intimate, obviously the team, we talk every day, all the time, all of all of'em. Somebody from the team, Erica, is actually coming right now to my house. She'll be there that tonight. Um, as we prepare for aspiring sellers. Yes. Um, so when I'm selling CIS as an idea, a concept, I know that I'm talking about my personal story and you cannot invalidate my story. This happened to me as a young salesperson. This was the outcome of the corporate structure. This is why it attacked my performance because the more alone and isolated I felt, the less I was able to produce. Because you need confidence and good energy to be good at the job. You know, any little thing unfortunately that you feel on the sales floor could impact how you pitch externally. So you can't, like, as I'm talking to companies and brands about why they should sponsor or why they should pay attention to, you know, this organization I'm speaking, I'm, I'm not like speaking from a script. I'm not speaking on behalf of someone that created something else. You know, I'm not the salesperson of cis. I am cis telling you this is a real problem. Yeah, I know this is a problem'cause I'm intimately dealing with said problems. So bringing it back to the team so they see me pitch with enthusiasm and bravery. I am not coming up with random antidotes. This is a real issue that I've been through, and it en encourages them to tell their story when they pitch because they are a user of the brand and they are also the consumer in a way that I am impacting. And so I think that, um, you know, when you are building a team, you want to find people that have the same, it's never gonna be exactly the same, but a close enough desire to solve the problem that you started to solve already, a close enough desire so that they are brave almost by default, because now you said to them, that problem that you've been having, I actually created a solution for it. And you don't have to read a script, and you don't have to watch a thousand YouTube videos to understand it because it's the problem that you have too. Yeah. You know, and so a lot of times we don't always have the luxury to work at companies that are solving something that you are so passionate about. But if you do, then it'll take your confidence level from zero to a hundred. Yeah. It'll make you brave because you identify with the problem that the company is solving for. Yeah. So, um, so hiring is a large part of, of how we are able to instill bravery, like literally looking for people or them looking for me because they feel connected to the, to the mission of what we're doing. Um, and then in terms of the community, we're saying the untold things. We're saying unspoken things. Yeah. And that's giving them bravery. We're just calling it out. Like we know that there is prejudice and racism and. Um, unjust practices happening in corporate America, specifically with black and brown women, and on the sales floor, that is no. Can somebody come to my house and beat me for saying that? Like, you know what I'm saying? The truth is the truth, but the truth is the truth. And so it's empowering, you know, because sometimes our community cannot say that for fear of rep being reprimanded. Yeah. For fear of being isolated, for fear of making, you know, Sally and Johnny feel like, oh no. Like, should we not be friends with her anymore because she thinks that we're all racist or

Speaker 2:

whatever? Yeah. Is the thing. And it's like you can't, but you can't own that. Cedreo

Speaker 4:

I have conversations with many different professionals from all walks of life and the world, and I understand that their perspectives are different. That's why I value the diversity in idea, the diversity in the concept of the diversity in collaboration. But I think part of that is also removing that fear, right? We all come from different backgrounds. We all have different experiences, and. Uh, different does not equate to better. Different is just different, and especially in the sales community and the pursuit of being a amazing sales professional and also providing a value to your customers that's outside of numbers is one understanding. People's objectives, understanding the things that they value, not only in their personal lives but in their careers. Everyone in a different position in that organization has a different objective. They have something that they are thriving to, so. Always positioning myself to listen, to learn, and then provide value to me, I feel like has been a successful strategy in my life and in my profession, but also understanding that the way in which we communicate to one another is important. The way in which we listen because it's important to be able to say. Oh, I was excited and I'm presenting this thing and I thought you'd find value in it, but you didn't. Or something I said in some or something that was said, was said in an offensive way. That's fine because we're all different. But it doesn't mean offensive action. Offensive word equal. You're a bad person. It just means maybe you are unaware. Maybe this is a learning opportunity. Maybe there is space for the conversation.

Speaker 2:

And I'm always reminding her that even a small graze on a flower can take a pedal. People keep thinking that, it's just a mild graze. It was just a one off comment. But you could still take a pedal off a rose with just a, a heavy blow. Yeah. Is that fair To the rose? No. So it's just, it's, I think saying the uncomfortable thing out loud brings everyone into the conversation.'cause I also don't want to diminish any, just like, I don't wanna be diminished to my gender and my race. I don't wanna diminish anyone else to their gender in their race. So I don't want them to, I don't wanna make the assumption you've had this experience before and you're aware Right. But I also am naive to teach you. But if I am g graced, I'm the one to go, Hey, hey. Excuse me. Excuse, excuse me. Um, that little comment, while you might've not meant it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Offensively, let me tell you how it could be offensive. Mm-hmm. Right then and there, and I, I have stopped many of conversations and people are like, yeah, well, like Sonika. And I'm like, they

Speaker:

don't like conflict. And that's the thing, you know? Um, I'm going against the grain, so I'm inviting conflict, um, and having to be okay with that because ultimately, without cis, without o other organizations, without someone saying that we should not let this happen, it would just happen. Like people would just hire the same kinds of people. You would not get into certain organiz, into certain companies. You would experience a lot of, um, anti femininity, you know, in the workplace. Like there's, it's like a, it's like a, a ball in motion. It is. And it's

Speaker 2:

like, there's, but, and I also feel like why if you are doing something, you know, we know it's for the right reasons. Why is that, why is that inviting conflict? Do you understand what I'm, I feel like there are so many bad things happening in the world. I know you guys watch the news, like there is so much craziness happening in the news and they don't, there is not this conversation of, of course, that's gonna have repercussions. Of course people are not gonna feel good about that. Of course, there'll be flashbacks, quotes, there'll be there, there's not that much emphasis on when the wrong things are being done that obviously conflict will come their way, but when the right thing is being done. We subconsciously start to brace ourselves for the conflict that will come. And I just, I don't know. I've, I've just in the last few years have, I feel like the sun has shifted where I'm not bracing myself in no heavy nothing.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I'm

Speaker 2:

standing in the right, yeah. I, I'm standing in integrity. Yep. So if anything that comes my way negative or anything of, that's all you. That's all you. I'm gonna stand tall in what I'm saying and my experience, but I'm not going to, I don't know. I feel like something about bracing for impact diminishes the light.

Speaker:

Interesting. I think that's a fascinating take. I think that some of it is learned behavior, um, where they see someone like a freedom fighter going out into the street talking the truth. I think people get nervous, and I don't know if it's because they still wanna hear the truth of what that person may be saying. Um, or if they know that person will be persecuted. But, um, I think the brace for impact comes from knowing that we live in a world, specifically in America, very capitalist society, where it's all about the bottom line. Um, and you know, when we're talking about diversity, unfortunately we have to talk about diversity being good for the bottom line because emotional arguments don't seem to win.

Speaker 2:

But diversity is good for the bottom line. Like that's, it is like, you know, I'm a statistical nerd. Yeah. Like, that's where I'm just like, I don't, that's where I'm just like, take your emotions and, and, and go, go away. Go away from here. I agree.

Speaker:

I agree. Um, but we are surrounded by a lot of individuals that are not, also not creative thinkers. But they're also not

Speaker 2:

fact thinkers. Yeah,

Speaker:

that's true too.

Speaker 2:

And that's where I left to point out that we can have a conversation about everything under the sun. And I'm one of those people that I'm, I'm, I'm here for it. I wanna hear everyone's perspective, but we still need to know the facts or the facts. The opinions. Or the opinions. The experiences are the experiences. You cannot manipulate facts towards your emotion. Like, let's

Speaker:

be honest, it's a tricky thing. You know, for me, I think that, um, with sis, we are not looking to decondition or recondition, um, the minds of racists. They made it their goal. I mean, we are in a time where people are deciding that this, no matter what happens, they're not going to change sides. I. The world could literally be on fire and like, you know, and, and this, and the stubbornness of these people are just what it is right now. And there's not much else. And I'm not gonna live my life trying to change people's minds. So I just can't, I work with the people that are interested in common sense, and I, and facts. And facts and, um, beautiful things are happening at their companies and in our community. And that's it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And, and it's the levity that I need to keep moving on with my day, um, is knowing that I'm solving a problem for all of these different groups and everything is great

Speaker 2:

and you are doing such a great job about with it. Thank you. Like, it's, you've ma you're making such an impact, not just in these organizations that partner with sisters and sales, but to the overall community. I feel like it's somewhat like a bat. A bat signal. Yes. We are here. Yes. Like, come find us. You do have partner. Partners in arms and in community to help. Yeah. Not just because we look like each other. Yep. But we are smart. We are so smart. We are smart. We are revenue drivers. We are the ones bringing in the dollars and keeping the lights

Speaker:

on.

Speaker 2:

And at the end of the day, this is business. So that's where I, when I don't know why would I hear people that's like, di i, and it's, it's funny to me, I I have no, I have no other reaction but to laugh because it's the saying you cut off your nose to spice your face. Your face. That's right. Because say what you want. It's, yeah. It's where the money

Speaker:

is. You know, yesterday when you led that workshop, no one can contest that you, um, are not an accomplished salesperson. You are clearly, you know, your stuff, you know, and, and so many people in our community know their stuff. But when you see them, um, you know, on an interview slate, you see a black face there. You assume for some reason this administration has warped in people's minds that this person doesn't know their stuff because of their skin color. Why? You know, whereas they probably know twice as much because they've been preparing to compete. Exactly. Um, I, I did tell that once to, um, an old manager. Um, I was like, I don't know if you know this, but you know, we're told to work twice as hard, which means that you're getting a better rep on your team. I know.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if you, if you wanna make goal or not. You know what I mean? I was like, but that's where you should

Speaker:

know this.

Speaker 2:

No, but that's where I'm just like, what are, what is your objective? Right. And that's to me, where I separate church from state.

Speaker:

Yeah. Well, hatred, the hatred is, is gonna get in the way. That's why we can't be bothered. There's just too much, too much negativity. We just,

Speaker 2:

it's, it's comical to me. I really can't even take it seriously. That's why I think it's so funny because it's like you would hold on to emotion mm-hmm. Rather than meet your goal. Yes. Okay. Yeah. That's how successful this is. Yeah. And then you wonder like why your competitors are circling you. Like it's just, it's a funny thing. It's, but I wanna talk about entrepreneurship. Sure. Right. Because I think there are so many people that understand the value of ENT entrepreneurship, myself included. Right. And the bravery required. I feel like. Being an entrepreneur doesn't only, you have to be, like you said, a calculated risk taker, but there's something about your, not the thickness of the skin, but there's something else. There's something else there. I don't know. What's the proper terminology for it?

Speaker:

Um, well, I mean, I think long term all the time, I think long, medium, even short term, um, I know that my actions can change the course of my business, so I'm no longer reactive. That's a habit that, you know, you form when you are on your own and you're self-employed. Um, I ha in a corporate entity, partnerships are very siloed. So like you can either be a direct sales or account manager, or you could be business development or you could be marketing, whatever it may be. When you're an entrepreneur, you can, everybody, anything you, everybody. So, you know the gentleman who runs this studio? Yes. Gabe, there is a myriad of different ways we could partner together. Yes. I don't have to say if I'm in a corporate structure, I'd have to say, wait a second, Susan does this type of sale. Yeah. And then Susan say, no, I actually don't do that. This other person does this. And so like, there are all these different layers and, and bureaucracy. Yes. Um, but when you're an entrepreneur, you can find collaboration with anyone at any time in any way. And that is the beautiful thing about being an entrepreneur. It's the diversity of the ways that you can make things happen with other people without corporate structure getting in the way.

Speaker 2:

I like that. That makes me gonna ask you, how has your bravery surprised you since being an entrepreneur? Okay. A

Speaker:

couple things. So let's start from the practical sense. From the practical sense, depending on the way that your business is designed. Your business is not you, it's its own thing. Um, you know, there's limited liability for example. So that means you can put as much risk in it. You can try a lot of things. If it doesn't happen, close up shop, move on. I mean that from a very practical and just fundamental answer there is that that did surprise me. And the reason it surprised me is because even though I had my dad, I was still in a community, um, Caribbean and a Caribbean American community, and the business owners that I did run into would go down with the ship. Yes. Not because I don't think that, you know, I don't think they were trying to, but they commit themselves

Speaker 2:

to an

Speaker:

idea,

Speaker 2:

a

Speaker:

singular entity. And I just don't think they understood. Or maybe they did. I don't know. Um, all the options that are available to you that can give you confidence. So, as you know, our president has, I think he's has seven bankruptcies or how, however many bankruptcies. Bankruptcy, right? Bankruptcy, closing up shop, starting again, pivoting are all options for you building in America. You literally can close up your small business or your large business. You can bring on debt or not. Like there's so much that it's a, it's a trajectory. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's a

Speaker:

journey at any time. And you don't have to go down with the ship. If it's going poorly, you can sell parts of the business, you know, and so I think the biggest thing was separating myself, my identity from the business structure. These are all the options for me. If it goes in this direction, these are all the options for me. If it goes in another direction

Speaker 2:

and, and seeing them as separate from yourself is separate is really, it doesn't mean I

Speaker:

failed. If I need to go in this direction. That's just the nature

Speaker 2:

of the business entity. Yes. And now think you know that you just unlock something really important for me.'cause that also makes me think of the industry. Right. I work in these very large comp, I work for a company that's very large partnering with companies that are super

Speaker:

large. And I'm sure all of them are in lawsuits. All of them have a lot of debt. All of them haven't been profitable. And I've seen

Speaker 2:

some of them that are literally going down with the industry. Yep. Right. Which has nothing to do with them.

Speaker 3:

Yep.

Speaker 2:

But their industry is taking certain hits because of regulations and compliances and all of these things. Huh. That is, that is a great way to put that, that you could, you don't have to go down with every ship that you build.

Speaker:

No.

Speaker 2:

Because each ship that's so, I don't know why, but duh. Because each ship. It is in a notion of its own, it's in its own industry. Yes. And like if that industry starts to take on heavy waves, your ship will be impacted. That doesn't mean you go down with the

Speaker:

ship, you don't go down. But that is a very unique aspect of American business. We literally have designed so many shortcuts and loopholes for business owners to separate themselves to, you know, sell assets, buy assets, all of those things. So when you're starting entrepreneurship, you're gonna feel that the business is you and you are the business. But eventually, that's the surprising part, especially when you start dealing with professional services like legal and accounting and bookkeeping and what have you. They will be on your side to protect you, not just emotionally, but also through legalities. To put the business here and put you over here. And so, yeah, that was one of the things that was really interesting and fascinating that I've learned. And, and the more you understand your protections yes. As an individual versus a business and vice versa, the more risk you can take.

Speaker 2:

Nice. That is so smart. No one, this is such a great conversation for entrepreneurs. That is awesome.'cause I don't think anyone thinks of that. Right? I think people, especially myself, I'm like, this is my baby. But again, same thing too. You're your baby. I'm, you're your baby. You know, my husband is, my intellectual property is my baby. My husband always tells me

Speaker:

that, um, he always talks about Dr. Dre not, you know, he has a lot of controversy. Yes. But he always talks about, um, when Dr. Dre invests in an artist, he invests in the individual, not necessarily about the particular product they've created at that time, but it's like, I want you, because I know your brain and your ingenuity and your creativity will create a thousand things. And I want all the things that you're going to create and all the things that you're going to touch. And so it's like, yes, this business is your baby, but you are the genius behind it. And if God forbid something happens with this, you're gonna create something else.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, very true. And something

Speaker:

else. And something else. And you're always gonna be thinking and always gonna be problem solving. So the true, you know, way to, you know, invest is to invest in the individual that's building, not necessarily all the time and the thing that they've created at that particular time.

Speaker 2:

That is so smart. And I love, I, I think that's such a great conversation, especially for the audience.'cause when you think of the bravery you need to be in the corporate space and then the bravery you need for entrepreneurship, you actually realize that not that they're different, but they're the level like it, it. It fluctuates in a way. Yeah. Right. Because as an entrepreneur, yes, you're brave because you're your own business. You are running the ship. I would say building the empire. Yeah, you are building the empire, but there is so much more legality and, and things on your side, on the entrepreneurship side versus when you're an employee. And I think,

Speaker 3:

yeah, there

Speaker 2:

is this, especially in like the Caribbean culture and black culture you're raised I think now the millennials know that we, we were sold a bag of bullshit like we, uh, where it was like, go to school, get a good job, save all your money. Live your life in retirement. Yeah. Like that was what they were told. So they were like, I need to sell this to my kids. Save, invest. I dunno about that. Maybe a couple of dollars. Yeah. But save. Yeah. Go to work. Yep. Stay at instead. Work, be there for a long time.

Speaker:

I am. My family is like, oh, so are you going to work? I'm like, I am. I'm, I'm an entrepreneur, this is my work. Welcome. And they're like, no, but are, you know, they're so accustomed to you doing it for someone else. Like, are you going to someone else's office? Yeah. Like, no. Yes. But yeah, it's hard for them to think about it that way. But, you know, as much as there is a lot of chaos and, and instability and all kinds of things happening in the world, that is one of the benefits of doing business in America.

Speaker 2:

Yes. That is, that is such a great thing. And I wanna, I want us leave there because I love how you've, you basically were nurtured with seeds of bravery all around you. Like your garden was grown with bravery. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? And as you channel through multiple different seasons in your life from being an actress, to being, being a sales leader and then now a CEO of an amazing community and an organization that's impacting so many different organizations. It, I think. It just shows you that bravery doesn't look like X. It doesn't look like,

Speaker 3:

yeah.

Speaker 2:

I am being brave. Bravery is being in that boardroom and feeling uncomfortable and going, good thing. I have that idea that I'm working on. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. But also knowing that I'm here to provide a service. Yeah. And I'm providing that service at the best of my ability when I'm done providing that service. Right. I'm going to go build. Yeah. Right. And then also for those that are just building, and I wanna be an entrepreneur, and this is what also not to be attached to this idea. Like, this is my moment, this is gonna be my thing. Because it also stifles you in a way of not believing that you yourself. Have enough to continue to build and don't go down with any ship. Yeah. Your first ship is not your only ship. Right. And I love that bravery taught you that you can be, you can multiply you. You are the entity, you are the empire. Yes. That's it. You got it. That is awesome. This was such a great conversation. I love you. Thank you for having me so much. And before I let you go, ah, you know, we always talk about the vibe of the week, right? I think music drives our life. It just helps keep us closer to the sun. Okay. So what are you vibing on this week, Chantel? What you vibing on? Um, honestly, I was listening to Soca music

Speaker:

on the way down here. Jump, jump. It's car. It's CarVal time in the Caribbean. Yes. Um, I was listening to, um, the Greatest Bend over.

Speaker 2:

Oh, bend over. Bend over. I like Marsha Long. Between Marsha, yes.

Speaker:

Gb m Neutron NI was listening to just like freedom music. I love it. You know, carnivals an expression of freedom. It is. And of, uh, being yourself. I have a cousin, I love her to death. She's a genetic scientist and she's so we well respected in the, in the, in the medical world funded by so many great, um, benefactors. And you know, when you see her, she's very serious. Yes. But she's in carnival right now.

Speaker 2:

Listen, why John? I Chuck in the

Speaker:

road and I'm like, you know what? One life to live. Yes. So the

Speaker 2:

vibe for the week and why not? I love that. It's

Speaker:

freedom. Yes. It's joy. It's dancing. It's

Speaker 2:

soka music. Soka. It is kind, you know, it's not taking yourself too seriously. It's like, yes. That's it. I love that. Thank you so much. That's such a great vibe to end up on because I, I'm gonna put some Soca songs in, um, the description box. Please check them out.'cause Soca does give you that freedom feeling. Yeah. You know what I mean? Just hold up your head and Yes. Dance with the sun. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. Of course. Thank you and tell. This is amazing. And thank you so much for watching this episode of how Do You Divine Bravery.