How do you divine?
How Do You Divine?, a podcast that explores how each of us defines—and is defined by—the powerful words that guide our lives. Every episode focuses on a single word, inviting listeners to connect deeply by examining its meaning through the lens of personal experience, knowledge, and environment. We keep the conversation simple and impactful, amplifying the connections we all share.
How do you divine?
EMPATHY| The Power of Transforming Conversations and Communities with Andrew Davies
In this episode of Sanika engages in a profound conversation with Andrew Davies about the concept of empathy. They delve into Andrew's personal experiences and how empathy has played a crucial role in his life, both personally and professionally. The discussion touches on the importance of seeing people beyond their roles in corporate settings, the impact of childhood experiences on developing empathy, and how improvisation can help build stronger, more empathetic teams. They also explore how empathy can bridge cultural and racial divides, foster better communication, and overcome fear-based biases. Tune in for an insightful dialogue on defining and practicing empathy in various aspects of life.
Books mentioned during the episode
- Supercommunicators by Charles Duhigg
- Martin Luther King - I Have a Dream speech
Thank you for listening and for adding new dimensions to your definitions. Keep growing, keep exploring, and keep defining life on your terms.
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Meet our Founder & Host 🎙️
Sanika is a storyteller, communicator, and creator passionate about exploring self-discovery, culture, and the power of words. With a background in technology and marketing communications; she has built a platform dedicated to authentic conversations that inspire growth, challenge perspectives, and amplify voices.
As the host of How Do You Divine?, she invites listeners to redefine meaning, embrace transformation, and navigate life—one word at a time. Her mission? To create space for reflection, empowerment, and deeper connections through storytelling.
Welcome back to this episode of How Do You Divine, and today we're here with Andrew Davies and we are ready to explore the word empathy. Andrew, thank you so much for coming to the podcast and just making time to be here and be a part of this conversation. I'm so grateful. Give us some more background. Who's Andrew? Yeah. Nice. I love that. Thank you so much. And I, one thing when we first met that really stood out is how you have been able to combine your passions along with your purpose and really are out there in the world, you know, making an impact not only in corporate spaces, but also for children in their younger years. Can you remember in your younger years, the first time you've came into a situation or a conversation with a friend that made you realize like, maybe I'm a bit empathetic, or that was an empathetic moment? Because I think often when we think about what is empathy, we don't necessarily know how to pinpoint the definition outside of obviously the dictionary, right? But it's like, what is that empathetic feeling or moment that really stuck with you early on that made you feel like, I do love people and I wanna do more? Yes. I love it. Yes, for sure. And I love that, right? And I say, always say that that is a benefit I have as well. Growing up in New York City. Right in Brooklyn in public school. It was a melting pot. I had friends from different race culture all over. And I love the fact that earlier on in, in your journey, you were able not only to see empathy in your environment, but you were like, oh, wait, there's a moment here where I can be a character, kind of put on the, the, the, the body and the image of someone else and see how would I go about this? Right? How will I be a father at 10, right? For this play. But it's these artistic activities that stretch us and stretch our minds and our hearts to see how other people live. Right? And I, for me, I always see empathy as how you would want to be treated at your lowest. You know what I mean? And just always think that there is another story. Everyone's dealing with something. And I think when we say empathy and being empathetic to one another, it's often difficult to verbally display, verbally articulate, I should say. But I think it should be more easier to, in physical form, display what empathy looks like. Right. Because I've, like, you're in corporate spaces doing improv, helping people work better together. How have you seen different, um, signs of empathy and what's were some exercises that you're trying to invoke in them so that they not only understand where each other is coming from, but also understand the difficulties of each person's position on that team? Yes, yes. Yep. Absolutely agree a hundred percent. Ugh. Absolutely. The empathy grows. The respect grows. Right. And I love that you said that.'cause in, in my corporate spaces, I say that all the time that I can separate the human from the role. Right, because often sometimes we just see people as their role. What, what are they contributing to the project? What are they contributing to the organization? And when we separate those two things and start to see each other as humans, we'll realize that everyone, everyone, no one knows everything, right? No one knows everything. And actively being ready and willing to learn from one another. Because that, to me, you, I think you put it perfectly, is a sign of empathy. Just always being in the posture to learn and also to respect each other as individuals. Separate from your actual title? Yes. And the humanness of it. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And everyone being of one, which reminds me, it's so funny you said, um, I was gonna say Bible verse, but actually is Jamaicans something that we say is out of many one people. Right. And it's just always reminds me that we can have many personalities, definite experiences, but out of all of us, we are just one. Right. Which also aligns with Christianity, right?'cause you know, I, I am a believer of Christ and I love the Lord. And I feel like if Jesus taught us nothing, it's too always see each other as a brother and a sister, like as a sibling, approach things with love. Like, and I think some way, somehow we lose that in these different spaces in corporate spaces. And even when you're trying to, um, go out in the world and find friendship and things like that, we always, in my perspective, have this posture of protection. And it's like, don't protect, don't protect something that already is right. You are who you are. Just always lean into learning. And that to me is what empathy is. If you approach every conversation, every room ready to just show up as yourself, like you said, every, there is gonna always be some form of code switching, some form of, I I always say presentation, Because you're there, there are levels to your full self, but it also allows you to be empathetic to others.'cause sometimes you can get too much in your head. And then it's like, how can I be empathetic when I'm standing here worried that someone's gonna think I don't not ready for this meeting and that I was not prepared for this job? Like, how can you then be empathetic if you are so caught up with what's going on with yourself? Right? So how have you helped people navigate, like their internal, I don't know if insecurities is the right word, but their internal reservations to really show up. Like that's the beauty of improv, right? Like forces you outside of yourself, but how have you done that? That's it. Okay. can't say I'm sick and tired of Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. can't do that. Yes. Yes, we're gonna recreate, you know, that Titanic moment for you maybe out. And then the idea gets better, right? Because then everyone now starts to contribute to just not that idea, but the overall feeling that we want to con convey for this picnic. And I think you hit it right on the head, that sense of radical support, right? Because I think in both corporate spaces, your friendships and in your family, I think what we are looking for is that support. And especially in corporate, when you're like, when you're trying to be your best, and like I ran a team before, I always tell people we are as good as our lowest performing team member. That is who we are. Like that is how well we are because we all, we don't all have to be at the same level of excellence and presentation, and you're building contracts and who's doing the right proposals, but we all support each other. At the same level of intensity ever. When anyone stands up and has something to say or contribute to a project, I want everyone to be involved. I want everyone to be cheering them on because we can learn from everyone's journey. So I love that radical sense of support that you like create, which again, ultimately builds that internal empathy, right? For who that person is. Because the person who said like, let's go on a yacht, everyone can be like, that's crazy. That makes absolutely no sense. But when you say yes and you open, you first validate their experience, right? And I think it's important that when we think about being empathetic to one another and not starting with that no mentality, there is a sense of validation not only for who they are, but what they've gone through, right? And just saying yes and goes, alright, you see me, you hear me? Let's make it better together. Let's make it better together, right? Because empathy is not only just, um, I would say the soft moments, right? It's not just allowing someone to cry on your shoulder or being a listening ear, it's also allowing someone to become who they are in any opportunity, right? If it's a meeting, if it's a, it's a celebration. Allowing someone to be, feel free, to be themselves around you is empathy. That, that absolutely, that, absolutely that, because everyone has a significant amount of value to add to any conversation in every meeting. And it doesn't necessarily have to align with what you feel like is the best thing, but every single person has value. So I love that. Like it's kind of the saying of, um, take the meat and leave the bones right when you are going through. And that's the beauty of like improv and performative arts that I think translate into real, in real life, right? Because you can be presenting, um, a presenting in a meeting or walking through a proposal and you see that something is not resonating with the audience. Pivot. I do a lot of speaking engagements in conferences and there are things that rev up the crowd and there are things that make the crowd think and there are things that, you know, they're not probably ready to dive into. It's too harsh, like transition moments. The ability to be ready to pivot and take what was working and evolve it and move it forward in real time. It not only shows how you are. A actively engaged with your audience and the people you're talking to. It also acknowledges that you, yourself are showing yourself empathy that, hey, that, that, that last sentence didn't work, so I'm gonna keep moving. That last presentation didn't work, so I'm gonna keep moving. And that's the beauty of improv. Yes. Exactly. In whatever moment we Exactly. And in such a large audience. And it's also that, that, going back to that empathy of him trusting his gut, he knew like, you know, I, I, I too have watched all the documentaries and I, and I. Always felt like he, there was something in his gut that said, I can do this and I'm gonna keep going and I'm gonna improvise. And I'm going to picture of the, I am gonna articulate the dream in which I know the P dream in which I, I believe in and in front of this large audience, which is totally not what I've planned on talking about And look Yes. It is part of the collective, it is part of that, that team of people that you put together that believe in what you believe in, that are aligned with the purposes that you are aligned with, that, you know, and then it's similar to like this conversation, right? I'm a Christian, you and you're a Jewish and we can have this conversation. We have so many similarities and how we see life and how we live life. And just understanding that you having people around you that you trust that radical sense of support is how greatness is built. And it reminds me actually of, of Barack Obama, I read his book and did you know Barack Obama actually used to be a bad speaker? Did you know that? Like he would speak Yeah, he would speak too quickly. He would, he would speak too quickly. He was too pointed and he, his whole team told him one day like he was going to town halls and was like, you need to speak slower. You need to speak slower. You need to know exactly what you wanna say in your head before you say it. And it was, and it was like, it was very heartwarming for me, who speaks a lot, but always, you know, there's always room for improvement that he had to teach himself to slow down in his communication so that it resonated with people. People would tell him how charming he was in conversation, but when he got up to speak, it was too quick. They would lose him in in all of his ideas. Right. And over time his team, his team kept like they did workshops with him. He started doing town halls with slower, with like slower speaking, shorter points. And that's how he got Great. So you ring up the Martin Luther thi. Martin Luther King. I have a dream speech. Reminded me of those moments when I read in the Barack Obama book about him being a good, like he would connect with the people, but people would walk away not knowing exactly what he said.'cause he said so much, It was too, it was rapid fire. And so it wouldn't resonate. And then trusting in that radical sense of support, the people around him, around him having empathy not only to who he was, but what he was trying to do and why his speech was so quick, and why it was so passionate and why he just always felt like he had to hit it. If I got two minutes, I'm gonna hit it in two minutes. And they had to tell him that hitting, trying to hit all those points in two minutes actually loses all of the points. Yes. And thought and like, yes. And to slow down and be able to properly articulate what you're feeling and what you desire out of the conversation. And I think as we move through life trying to show each other empathy, that's a key thing that the audience can take away. It's just slowing down in general, right? In in general, allows you to be present in the moment and actually respond. In the way that you'd like to. Right. That's why I love improv because while improv is quick and you have to be ready and you're on your feet, it all, it actually teaches you this, the muscle of being present, because you can't be, you can't be an empathetic person without being present in the moment, and often we're just running through life, right? We're just like, we have tasks to complete, jobs to do and we're running through life. But how can you be that radical sense of support and show empathy not only to yourself, but the people around you that you love as well as like the spaces you occupy if you're not present? Nice. Hundred percent, yes. Yes. We're like, yes, absolutely, yes. Same. I think it's, it starts from fair, if I'm honest. I think the bridging of communities start from fair. I think everyone feels that they're not gonna understand. They're not gonna understand me. They're white. I'm black, I'm a woman. This is a guy. They're not gonna understand me. And I always like to articulate that. That's coming from a place of fear. Or of a bad experience. Right. And that's where I lean in. I'm super empathetic. Like, tell me why have you had that experience? And I've learned that I've had such a unique upbringing because again, I went to public school in Brooklyn. One of my first best friends was white girl. Her name was Jenny. Hi Jenny. Like, um, and you know, it's ridiculous to say you don't see race.'cause race, ma like race, ethnicity, it all is there and it's very transparent. And, but I've just always had friends across the gambit because of the relationships. Right. But in our community, I do still see those silos. And I'm always the one that's like, why? Like, why can't we just go to this club? Or let's go to this restaurant, not because there's not a bunch of black people there. We will be the first sense of black people that go there, you know? And I, I know it stems from fair. And I know it stems from having sometimes bad experiences, but I'm always leaning in when I'm like, be more empathetic.'cause you don't know the experiences that one person had and you can't judge a slew of people based on one experience. Just like, I don't wanna be judged for being a black woman. I don't wanna judge anyone for just being a white guy. Like you understand what I mean? Like, because we're so much more than that. We're so much more than that. So while I do see those silos, I also have pockets of friends that don't care. Like, you know what I mean? And my friend, my personal friendship circle goes across the whole gamut. I have family members that's part of the LGBTQ club. I have friends that's part of the lgbtq plus community. I have friends of all different races and religions, right? Because I just think as human beings, there's so much we can learn from each other. There is so much I have learned from human beings that. I could have never learned if I just stuck in my own blocks and was like, I only speak to black people because that I only speak to Caribbean people because that's the people who know me and understand me. But I do think it stems from a place of fear, and that's why I think leaning in and showing a sense of empathy for not just who they are, but their experiences is how we bridge the gap. Right. Making it okay to say, I've had such a horrible experience with this one person and I, that's what I would personally love. I'd love if we would articulate, even if we had racist in their interactions, you know, and or just horrible experiences in different communities that it was articulated as that person, not people. Right, because that's ultimately what it is. People have bad experiences with other individuals and they make these generalizations of who you are and what they are, which is not fair. I just don't think it's fair to anyone because I remember I was in college and we were doing a project. I've always loved marketing communications and as you can tell, I'm a talker and I'm just like all the things. And it was this, um, white boy and he was just like, are you ever afraid to do this? And I was like, do what? He was like, be amongst like all of us. Because to be fair, I was probably like the second or third black person there. Like, it was like a room of like, um, over 50 people. And I was like the second or second or third black. But he was like, are you like afraid? I just want you to know like you have my support. And I thought that was. So sweet. I remember having a whole conversation and he later transferred, um, to a different school.'cause I went to school in Brooklyn. Um, so he later transferred and I remember saying to him how beautiful, what he just did was, I was like, thank you so much. I was like, I appreciate that you saw the difference in the room. And my response was, no. I was like, I learned a long time ago. I can't hide. So I'm very much okay, but I appreciate that you understand that are, that there are people that look like me that are not comfortable when we are only one or two in the room. and it's that empathy piece. I think it's the piece of, of just being more empathetic to everyone's experience in this world. Do you know what I mean? Because everyone unfortunately has had both good and bad experiences and sometimes when the bad experiences overweigh the good ones, it becomes those people. And I'm, I've been in many conversations when they're like, oh, Sonika. And I'm like,'cause it's not those people, it's that person that is someone's son, father, daughter. Like that one person had no integrity, that one person was wrong. But we can't just like, again, I don't want anyone to say black women are like X because you came across Sonika. Because I am not a representation of every single black woman in the world. What I'm is a representation of Sonika. So that to me is how our communities are Will. Over time become one, right. Leaning in and being more empathetic and understanding that if we acknowledge everyone's experience, both good and bad, and be more empathetic to their reservations, that's how we draw closer and closer together. Because I think often people wanna dismiss the sides that are uncomfortable, to be quite honest, right? Like it's, it's too hard to talk about. It's too hard to be a part of. And it's like, can we just not, can we not talk about it? And, which is so interesting because in a way, the Caribbean culture has taken that on and made it disowned because in the Caribbean culture, if some incident or there was a conversation or something happened with family or friends that left some, you know, unsettled feelings, instead of sitting down and addressing those feelings head on, they'll just ignore it. They'll won't talk for two, like, you know, two weeks, a week or two. They'll ignore it and then like around a holiday or you know, a month later they're like, Hey, haven't seen you. How are you? And just, you know, kind of ro I call it the robot through. Are you doing fine? Are you doing good? Are we good? Yeah. Can we just move forward, forward and just let, we don't need to talk about that. And that to me is so detrimental. Like it's so toxic in its its format and I don't allow people to do it. I'm like, absolutely not. We are gonna have a conversation of what happened, how you felt, and how you made me feel. We're gonna show each other empathy throughout the situation, and then we can move forward. I just don't believe in walking around with rugs that have a bunch of stuff stuffed under it. You know what I. Yep, exactly. Box checked. Nice. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, that part. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And just, and say hi, my name is right. Because like you said, that to me that passive, it's, you said so much there and I wanted to like, that's one of the main reasons I created this podcast, right, is one to loudly say. How we have defined things can be different for me as an individual in various stages of my life. And then how is that divine definition aligned with who I am? What happened to agreeing to disagree? I feel like at one point we were all so open to agreeing to disagree with someone's thought or perspective on a topic. And it was separate, right? It was separate from the human being. It was like, oh, I think it's rainy today. And you're like, oh, it's not raining. It's just drizzling, sonika. And that we agreed to disagree. It wasn't sneaker. You're an idiot. I just like, you know what I mean? Now my character and my morality and everyone is into question because we disagree on a topic, A topic that, by the way, we both may feel very different about. In a day or two because based on information like you, yourself, your definitions and your perspectives on things change over the course of your life. Why tear other people down? Because that perspective is different. It's one of the main reasons I created this podcast because of the level of di di diversity, um, division that I saw in the space. It was just let's, let's be angry at one another because we don't agree the same thing. Right? Let's label each other. And while there's so much comfort in saying like, oh, I've, I have a friend who looked like this. I work with a person who looked like you, boom, checked off. I know what kind of person you are. We have to acknowledge that that is very passive behavior and we would hate if anyone would do that to us.'cause, and that, and I always remind someone of that. Like you can look like the Jewish guy I work with. That doesn't mean Andrew. Andrew and David is the same person. Like that does, and I don't. And you understand what, and I personally don't even think of Andrew and David as the person, same person. And that's what makes me think my upbringing was, I think sometimes that I'm weird.'cause my, I was like, but there was a bunch of kids in that class because in elementary school we learned how to dle, we learned about Yom Kippur, we did Chinese New Year. Like I know about all the Muslim holidays. Like this was every single month at school and elementary school. PS 91 in Brooklyn. Like throughout my entire my academic career as a child here in New York City, us being, coming from different cultures, different religions, looking different was something that we celebrated. I remember every month we would have you, it's called, it was called like You Plus Me. So we would have to get on stage in the middle, on the auditorium and tell about our culture and then how it can help your culture. And then like the whole class, so like the class stood up on the, on the side, and I would have to go and I'd go, Sonika, I'm Jamaican and I'm black and mixed with Cuban, my culture can do. And then you walk off and then the next person was like, I'm Chinese, we can do da da. And then like, and then you walk off and then like, and then every, but we did it class by class and then everyone had to do a project about what you learn from each other. Like, it was just so much fun and curiosity and collaboration. So, you know, kind of growing up, going to college and entering a corporate world and seeing how other people thought was still to this day, very weird to me. I'm not gonna lie to you. I'm not gonna lie to you. It's very, I wouldn't say uncomfortable. It makes me weak for them if I'm honest. I'm so em and like people that I come across that's like hard grained in their ways and what they think immigrants are and all of these things, I honestly weep for you. Like, to me, I'm so empathetic. I'm, I don't get mad'cause I really feel like, because people only know what they know and unless an individual opens up to want to know more, they'll only know what they know. Right. So it's like, it's like trying to convince a wall it needs water. Unless it opens up it can't get it. So. How I am always, I always just weep for them.'cause I'm just like, you don't know how great life could be if you, if you were amongst everyone. You don't know how beautiful life is unless you have people of different cultures like, have you attended a Muslim wedding? It's freaking amazing. Have you attended an African wedding? OMG? Like, you know what, like, it's just so I'm like, have you had the Yum Kaur cookies? They are good. Like these are, these are things that I just feel like it's your choice. It is a choice and we have to stop living life so passively and expecting to live life fully. It's not how it works. There are people that live and die every single day and never lived a day in their life. So if you were, if you're gonna be passive and say like, I saw this, saw this black woman, she's like this, like this black woman. I know I don't wanna engage. You just missed an opportunity to find a friend that can help you. Like, you know what I mean? Same thing. Like if we just see people for their race and their religion, there's so much missed opportunity for happiness outside of learning. There's so much happiness and collaboration. And to me, I'm, I'm always chasing happiness and safety. So I'm just, I wait for them, if I'm honest. So that's why to me, my community is so mixed because I have such a good time. I genuinely and sincerely, like I have two daughters we like, and my husband, we, our whole village is so mixed.'cause we have such a good time learning from each other. Like, you know what I mean? Like, my friend who's Korean and she's a pastry chef. And I love me some pastries. She doesn't bake for me anymore because I love too many pastries. But we talk so much about Korean culture and like there are so many similarities in cultures. Once you get to know people, like, you know, the, the overbearing parent that thinks you should be married or a adopted, like there are so many, there are so many similarities that we can laugh on and love on each other and give each other that radical sense of support for that are missed opportunities because we wanna live life passively based on generalization. Oh, the. Yep. It is not, it's not true. And realize that it's not real. Like, and that's the part that always gets me. I'm just like, again, realize that what generalization, whatever box you created that makes that comfort to you, right, that makes your hate justified, understand that it's not real. Like it's not based on actual facts, it is based on the opinions and the stories that you created to comfort yourself. And that's where, to me, I'm always, again, I feel bad for them. I'm, that's really honestly and truthfully where I sit, because hatred comes from a place of fear. Somewhere deep down or probably right in front of your face. You are afraid of something. You are afraid that this person might be smarter than you. This person might get ahead than you, like you are afraid. That's all hatred is fear amplified. And unfortunately, it takes a lot of self courage and self accountability to move past fear. That's why it's easy to be like, yeah, to the immigrants taking all the jobs or whatever crazy rhetoric is this week. It's like, you know, you two can go out and get a job, like no one's stopping you. Like there is, there are no barriers in your way to get what you want. And if there are, call out the barriers. How is it the people, I'm sure there's not someone like kicking you out the door saying, no, you can't get this job. I'm here first. That's not how that works. But unfortunately, I think it's just, it's the comforting of the fair, right? You create these stories and there are messages and things out there that comfort you because ultimately in order for you to move past hate, you have to be willing to tap into intelligence, right? Like you actually, you have to. There's no like, and there's no way you can be filled with hate and say like, I'm also super smart, really. intelligence is aligned with a great deal of curiosity. Like you were talking about, um, like with Trump and Trump voters, there is, I think the book is called Master of Communication. If not, I'm gonna put it in the, the notes of this. But the book was amazing, right? It it's basically about how people are able to communicate with one another regardless of what, what side of the argument that they're on. I read it right after I read like the negotiation books. I like these books. I'm a happy little nerd, Andrew suppose of myself, right? But ultimately what they did was create, it wasn't like a test group. They invited all of these political, um, talking heads, right? Just commentators, um, even legislators to a room that had opposing opinions about the rights to bear arms. Right. They brought'em all to the room. No one knew who was coming to the meeting. So when everyone got to the meeting, and I'm paraphrasing the story to get to it, but when everyone got to the room, they all came together and realized who each other was, right? So they made the assumption that they were gonna talk about the right to bear arms, and then the person running the room asks a very personal question about like, something like wouldn't last you lost someone you loved. And everyone started sharing stories of like someone in their family that they lost for different reasons, sicknesses or whatever, and they just kept asking them personal questions about similar experiences. When's the last time someone you loved disappointed you? Like these were the questions that they were asking in the room, right? So as they continue to have these conversations and, and pose the question to the group and they keep talking and they're sharing these very vulnerable moments about themselves, the next day they said, so what about the right to bear arms? The conversation was significantly different because they spent the day before learning about who each other was, not what their stance on the topic was, but so when I say it was, it's a beautiful book. I'm definitely gonna put it in the notes, but it just also shows that when you take. The topic off the table, whatever it is, we can disagree. And that's why I always say that we make politics and all these things so much bigger than while it impacts a lot of people. So I'm not gonna negate that. It's not a big topic, but we need to separate the topic from the people. And because, and that's the part that's crazy. I feel like it has happened now over the last decade. I don't, I just don't feel like it's always been this way. Maybe I was just naive or maybe I'm just too young. I just never, I never felt it was this way, especially in New York and New York politics, like there were people that were actively disagreeing on issues and found a middle ground. Yes. that part, that part. But I feel like honestly it's, it's been amplified a lot due to loneliness, if I'm honest. I feel like it has been amplified a lot. I think the, the residue of COVID still lives very heavily in today's culture. Right. And what people don't understand, unfortunately, like people are rewarded for negative behavior online. That's just the honest, that's the, that's the facts of the matter. Right? And sometimes they just want engagement. Yes. And unfortunately, when people are festered and they're filled with fear and they're lonely, there is not a large demand for people to be like, oh, you're valued, you, you're worthy. Like, those conversations aren't as loud as the, I'm gonna go on a blog and say something mean in, in an effort to get someone to respond back to me. And like, you know what? Like,'cause that's what ends up happening. It's rewarded behavior it's interesting to see a fact run against an opinion. Right in a, on a, you know, a one man, a one-on-one man race, just like how we used to do as kids, right on the street, you take one corner and who, who gets to the next corner first? A fact can never outrun a lie. It, it's just, it can't, because unfortunately, especially online, the lie has so many more cheers. There are so many more people on the sideline, like. It's more exciting. What else? What did you say? What did they do? Like, you know, it's just, unfortunately, it's just so, it, it, it commands more attention and ultimately that's what they want. They want attention because they're fearful. And that's where I just lean in with empathy. I'm just like, what is this really about? You have to be super intentional about identifying what's the goal of this interaction? Like, you know, what do I want from this? Because often when you, there's been so many situations, and this kind of one of the reasons, again, I decided to create the podcast where people are come up to me or I'll be in the situation and I'll see it for what it is, and I'm like, well, what are you really angry about? Like, I know that this is, let's just say the proposal or the contract we're talking about, but all that aside, what is really bothering you? How can I help this be better? Not just on paper, but in overall, and that's. When you get to the real conversation by showing each other empathy and being present and showing that I genuinely and sincerely care about human beings. And I don't want anyone to be in, not only in my space, but in my community, feeling like they are worth nothing. Like no one cares about you that because you look a certain way or because you speak a certain way, right? Or you're, you have a different accent. Or because you don't speak proper English, that you are of any less value than anybody else in this community.'cause that is not the truth. It isn't just the facts of the matter. And I always say it's not about what I feel. I'm a person who operates in facts and numbers. It's not the truth. You have value because you are as substantial as I am. Substantial factually, right? So how like it's just leaning in and showing each other that level of empathy. And that level of being present and slowing down and not living life passively is what it's all about. Andrew, thank you so much. This has been such a wonderful conversation. It has fed me tremendously and I hope you really enjoyed and I hope our audience enjoyed, right? Because how we come to define these things that truly drive our lives and who we are, such as empathy is not an easy thing, but it's worth the journey. Awesome. Thank you so much. And this is how do you divine empathy.