How do you divine?

IDENTITY: More Than a Name, More Than a Title, Embracing Every Aspect of Who We Are with Jo Wong

• How do you divine? • Season 3 • Episode 19

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Welcome to this episode of How Do You Divine, where we explore the concept of identity with Jo Wong. Dive into a candid and insightful discussion as Jo shares her personal experiences of growing up across different cultures, her journey from a corporate executive to a self-aware individual, and the challenges and triumphs of embracing her true self. From dealing with cultural identities to professional success, Joe discusses the importance of authenticity, deprogramming societal expectations, and finding inner wellness. This enriching conversation touches on motherhood, career paths, and the continuous evolution of one's identity.

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Thank you for listening and for adding new dimensions to your definitions. Keep growing, keep exploring, and keep defining life on your terms.


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Sanika is a storyteller, vibe architect, and crowd igniter—passionate about self-discovery, culture, and the power of words. With a background in technology and marketing communications, she’s built a platform rooted in authenticity and resonance. Whether commanding the stage or leading deep conversations, Sanika doesn’t just hold space—she transforms it. Her work inspires growth, challenges perspectives, and amplifies the voices that need to be heard most

As the host of How Do You Divine?, she invites listeners to redefine meaning, embrace transformation, and navigate life—one word at a time. Her mi...

Speaker:

Welcome back to this episode of How Do You Divine, and today we are gonna speak to Joe Wang on how we have come to define identity. Joe, how are you? I'm good. How are you? How is New York? Uh, New York is in full summer spring mode because one day it's summer. The next day it's spring. But New York summer, I feel like is a movement. It's a vibe. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like be New York in the summertime, there's no better rooftop. I'll, I'll put money on that. Okay. There's no better rooftop than a rooftop in New York City, but then there are days that the heat is offensive. We, in one of those days, we're in one of those days.

Speaker 2:

I hear. I hear it. I hear.

Speaker:

So, Joe, when we spoke about being on the podcast, something that I think just resonated in our conversations was around exploring identity, as black women in corporate as well as founders and entrepreneurs and moms. Right? Mm-hmm. How we've come to identify ourselves, range in different seasons of our lives. And I wanted to take you back to the first day Joe said, who is Joe? Who is Joe Wang?

Speaker 2:

You say Wang. It's Wong like Only, I'll only let you call me Wang Joe. Who is Joe Wong? You know, it's interesting. I feel like, um. When you meet somebody for the first time and you're pulling back all the layers, or you're beginning the introduction of yourself, there's always this internal battle of, what am I going to share? Like if it is, where are you from? Yeah. That simple question of where are you from? I find so difficult because you know, as I shared with you, I am from Trinidad. But as you can hear from my accent, I left when I was young, but that is my identity. I'm Trinidadian. We lived in Canada. I grew up in Chicago. I went to school in Florida, I lived in Miami. So all those places are a part of my identity, like. If I see something about the Chicago Bulls, that's nostalgic for me. If there's something about city girls, I'm like, I'm a Miami girl. You know what I mean? So there's so many layers. And now as you know, I live in London. Yes. So I meet people all the time and they're just like, who are you? Where are you from? And I don't even know how to answer to say, you know, it is, but you tend to just go the easiest answer because it just, it's how much time do you have? Because I'm not. I'm not a one sentence, if that makes sense. My identity is multiple sentences. It's almost as if I have a bio of I am Caribbean American, expat living in London. A mother, yes, a business owner, one's corporate. But yeah, a lot of my identity is just wrapped up in so many things.

Speaker:

That's so I love how you took us through the journey of all the places, right? That has made you who you are. But it also makes me feel like being a black woman in these different spaces also shape not just like our physical identity, but who we are internally. Right. So give, take me back to Young Joe. Was Young Joe, just the Trinidadian girl in Canada? Like how, how, how has that evolved young

Speaker 2:

Joe? You know, I would say. Young, so I went through evolutions of my name. So my, my full name is Jo. Mm-hmm. And nobody calls me Jos, but like my family. So I would say Young Jos was in Chicago, and I always felt like two people outside of home and inside of home. And I know somebody at the diaspora understands exactly what I mean. Mm-hmm. So in Chicago, there's not a massive Caribbean, west Indian population. So at school I was, I guess, from the outside African American, black. And I immersed myself in the culture and you know, face value, that's what it was. But then I would go home to this other world and my mom would be in the house with the wrap skirt on playing Soca, eating, you know, pillow and stew chicken and you know, I just felt like I was always managing two worlds. Yes. And when I would bring people into my world or somebody called the house. And asked for me and heard my father's accent. They're like, what? You know, it was just, it was just really interesting to facilitate both spaces and learning that from a young age. And it doesn't help. I have an Asian last name, so first day of school it would be, they'd say Jos won. She, and I'd raise my hand and we like, no, no. Um, we said Joses won. She, and I'd have to sit there and be like, that's my name. And that was just out the box. You know, so I never felt like my identity matched anything I had seen before as a child. So I felt like I was always reinventing myself.

Speaker:

Ooh, for that reason. I love that. And I think so many of us can relate to the managing of two worlds, right? I say it's the best of both worlds being Jamaican, I had the same, you know, kind of experience where, you know, especially when, as you say, with your accent, and there's the accent, there's the patois. But navigating those spaces, especially with a unique name. How was that for you in school? Like who is Josette? Like, you know, I know you had so many conversations as a child. How did you navigate that space, like in middle school, high school?

Speaker 2:

You know, I actually think it gave me, I was very extroverted. I was very friendly and I think because I felt different. I gravitated to people that felt different. And I was, my friends used to joke with me.'cause you know, when you were walking in school, in the hallway, I would say hi to everyone. I knew everyone. I, I don't wanna say I was popular, I was social.

Speaker:

Same.

Speaker 2:

There was like the weird kid that used to duct tape everything. I was friends with him. I found him fascinating. I was like, what's up? You know, we good. And I think because I felt. Out of water.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

I recognized that in other people, people. So there was always this, so I was into indie rock music, but also hip hop. I was in dance, I was into theater. I, I did multiple things and I was always in multiple groups of friends because of that.

Speaker:

I love, but I love how you gave yourself permission to be Joe. At an early age. Right, because that is, that is an outsider's perspective, right? I think when we are in these spaces like school and things like that, you wanna acclimate, right? I always say as much as we hear standout, especially in Caribbean community, right? You, you, if you don't stand for something, you fall for everything. So your parents tell you to be who you are and all of these things, but when you get into the school setting, you really just wanna acclimate. You just want, yeah. To blend in. But I love how you. You identified early on that I'm an outsider, so I want to see, you know, I'm finding the outsiderness in everyone else that was so and so show. Tell me about how that helped build this bold human that we come to know.'cause I think that was such a bold move, even as a child, right? Yep. I have a unique name. I'm Trinidadian. Here I am. What's up? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I was telling somebody the story the other day, so in school we had, I don't know if you guys did this, I tell people in England and they're like, what is that? We had something called a real life project and we had to get a real job, not get a job, but like a fake, you know, a real job. Um, pay, rent, balance, our checkbook and mind you we're in Chicago and everybody had normal jobs and stuff in Chicago, and I was a flight attendant that lived in Miami. Never been to Miami before, but in my head, I'm not staying here. I'm traveling the world. So I was a flight attendant. I lived in Coral Gables, I had a sports car, whatever, whatever. And the irony of it is I manifested my life in a weird way. I was just gonna say that because I ended up having a travel position in Miami. I did not live far from Coral Gables. I did have a two. Like a, a sports car. And it's not till I was in my late twenties, early thirties. I was like, wait a minute. I kind of manifested this life. Oh, I've never been to Miami before. I just, in my head, I wanna live somewhere. It was hot. I wanted to travel, but I always had this like, bigger vision. And you know what? I could, I talking to you, I think I could attest it to, and you could can maybe speak to this. My mother had me travel from young. And I was exposed to the world. Yeah. So I had seen more than Chicago. You know, I had went back to Trinidad almost every summer. Mm-hmm. And spent time with family and was exposed to different cultures and backgrounds. I'd be in Brooklyn for the summer. I'd be in Orlando, I'd be, I think that this opened myself up that there's a world bigger than here.

Speaker:

Yes. And that you can dream, right? And I think, right. I think in the Caribbean culture, we don't necessarily identify it as dreaming. It's like ambition. And you know, it's usually targeted towards like a career aspiration, right? Be a nurse, be a doctor, be a lawyer. And you don't realize when you open up yourself to the world, your identity starts to change as well, because it doesn't just become who I am, it's what I wanna be. No,

Speaker 2:

I think so. And I think. Looking at my family dynamics and looking at my, my parents, and we had had so many people in proximity of all different backgrounds and type of jobs and in, you know, occupations. So you're just exposed to more, you, you realize more. And I, I definitely think it shaped me differently. In terms of what I felt as a concept I could be in the future,

Speaker:

and I love that in middle school you're like, I'm going to be a flight attendant. I'm gonna live in Miami. I'm gonna have a sports car. Because to me that level of detail shows you that you've always aspired to have a good day-to-day life. I think sometimes when people are like, like, I love this real world project. I've never heard about it before, but now I'm like, everyone should implement this in their, in the curriculum. Every child should have a real world project because it makes you aspire to what your day-to-day life is versus like this ultimate goal, right? Because I think when we think about what we wanna be and who we wanna be in life, it's like, I wanna be wealthy, I wanna be rich. Like, you know, it's always like this one singular target. It's not actually. What my days are and who I wanna be.

Speaker 2:

Well, I'll say my mom. I, the thing things I will definitely take with her, with my little one is she showed me nice things. She showed me luxury. She showed me I deserve it more than anyone. And she also talked to me about what it takes to earn it. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

You

Speaker 2:

know, and I remember if I wanted something, I, I really wanted this boombox. And she was like, all right, save half of it. And I'll put in the other half and you'll get this. And so I understood what it was to work towards something. So I wanted a car. I babysat all summer, you know, weeks and weeks and weeks to save up a down payment. And so there was definitely this, this aspect of you do deserve. In terms of like a growth abundance mindset? Yes. It was always instilled in me and my partner now grew up very different. You know, he grew up English, working class, nice things. You don't get nice things that's not for you. And classism is something I've learned a lot more evident here. So when I see him interact with certain things, I realized he wasn't raised with an abundance mindset. Um. I think instilling that in me so young, it was like, what can I not do? What can I not have? That

Speaker 3:

part, you know,

Speaker 2:

that part. But I think it's the work ethic and the sacrifice it takes for it is what I don't necessarily think people connect with all the time. So it wasn't just, you deserve nice things and there's a sense of entitlement. It was, you deserve nice things, but nice things take sacrifices.

Speaker:

And hard work. You're

Speaker 2:

gonna need to work hard. You're gonna need to not do things. You know, there were summers I didn't hang out with friends'cause I was working.

Speaker:

Oh girl. Talk to me about it. I've been, I had a job since I was 15. So same, same.

Speaker 2:

So talk to me about it. But she gave me the gift of earning something.

Speaker:

Yeah. You know,

Speaker 2:

when I drove that car around, it was like. It like, it's my car, you know, I, I, I'm sweat, blood and tears went into this, you know, so I, I, I definitely thank her for that. Like I love that and I will do the same for sure. The river.

Speaker:

I, no, I love that. And I wanna talk about how that mindset of abundance, like shaped your identity when you entered corporate.

Speaker 2:

I don't think it did. I think it shut down. I think in corporate I was, I always had this weird mindset that like, I snuck in the back door. They're gonna figure out any moment I'm not supposed to be here. Really? Yeah. Really. I really felt like they're gonna, the gig is up. They're gonna figure out. She has no idea what she's doing. I think

Speaker:

that's so

Speaker 2:

interesting. Thank you.

Speaker:

Thinking of all your, thank you so much for

Speaker 2:

your con No, thank you so much for your contribution. But what you know, day left, um. But yeah, I felt like that for a really, really long time because I, just to give kind of my story, I started off on the sales floor, Mac makeup, artist beating faces, but I just, I was always commercial. I always looked at sales. I always knew what my goal was. I always walked in on a Saturday with already my sales goal in for the week, if not month. Nice. And I'd be there chilling while everyone else is scrambling to make their target. And it was just always natural for me, and it didn't feel like work. And I think'cause of that, when I moved into corporate and stepped into that space, I didn't take the traditional route. Mm. I wasn't recruited from a sense of finishing my MBA and going into corporate. I was, I was staff, I was on the sales floor, and then. Graduated, I was able to step in. Yeah. And I think'cause of that, I was like, oh, they're gonna figure out, I'm actually a makeup artist that just can calculate sales. That is good

Speaker:

at the operations and organizations of sales structure. As black women, we often question our route to success. Right. Our validity. Although we have like the marks, but really the journey to prove it. That's why I don't think, I wouldn't say it's like an imposter syndrome. I just think sometimes we're sold that this is what corporate executives should have. You should go to Stanford, you should go to Harvard, you should have an MBA. You should have wrote a review. Like, you know what I mean? Like this is the structure that the identity of an executive should have. A

Speaker 2:

hundred percent. Like I was meticulous to the point of how I wore my hair or how I dressed, or, I mean, I still was getting it wrong. I don't know what kind of outfits I was wearing when I first started. I was wearing body con dresses thinking I'm doing something, a mess, a mess. But I really, I just, I just wanted to flip the part. Yeah. I wanted to be taken seriously. I wanted to fit the part. I wanted everyone to believe I knew what I was doing, and the confidence slowly came. As what I was doing was working.

Speaker:

Yeah. And

Speaker 2:

it was sticking and I was seeing the impact and I was seeing, I'm very results driven. So seeing that as well. But I think the mistake I made was that then became my identity. Ooh. Um, instead of me being Joe Long, I was the corporate girl that travels for work with Matt, and I would lead with that. Because I felt it gave me credibility, it gave me value, it gave me worth. So looking back, I was so much more than that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. But

Speaker 2:

that, because it was so much of my identity, I feel like it steered my relationships good and bad. Yeah. Uh, it, I sacrificed a lot of things wanting to keep proving myself. And it became almost addictive to be that corporate girly and whatnot. And it wasn't until COVID, I took a step back and I said, but what does this even mean?

Speaker:

Who am I even outside? Right.

Speaker 2:

Right. And I think it was COVID where it was really a look in the mirror of who? Who are you? Yeah. As I like. Fell apart, nailed lashes, hair,

Speaker:

all, all of the maintenance appointments were no longer being made. No, listen, listen, you rough. It's such

Speaker 2:

literally you're rough. But I had to like face myself. Yes. And just have that really deep conversation of who are you?

Speaker:

And not just, who are you? What do you wanna be? I think COVID did that for many people right across the world where the things that we have used to armor ourselves is who we are and what we are in this world. Were no longer available. Mm-hmm. And then you had to look at yourself square in the face and say, but what, who am I outside of these things? Hmm.

Speaker 2:

No, I agree. I agree. And I think my identity in terms of. Am I supposed to be a wife? Am I supposed to be a mother? Should I stay in London? Because I moved, I, I, all I had was me and I picked up, packed up everything and moved here for a career.

Speaker:

Yeah. And

Speaker 2:

sacrificed being away from friends and family, you know, relationships, whatever. So when I met my now partner. And I was, I guess you could say, introducing myself for the first time. There was a lot of self discovery.'cause he was actually one of the first people I had been with where I was so raw and authentic. So like no lashes, no nails, no wig, just rough. And I, and I kind of had this just real, yeah, very real. And I kind of had this mentality of like, you could take it or leave it. This is just what it is. And we were very aligned in values. So it was one of the first relationships I just used to speak so openly about how I felt about things or how I wanted to live my life or things I wanted for myself. And, um. Yeah, I think that's when I started really learning who I was.

Speaker:

Yes. This is a good conversation because we don't realize sometimes how we become the things. The who we are is the career, the, the titles. But we lose ourselves in just trying to maintain the titles. The mom, the sister, the friend, the, you know what I mean? Actually this was like a great journey for you because you had, first, you've already separated yourself from an, from an environment standpoint. Right? You got, you moved to London in pursuit of this career. So now I am Joe, I'm this executive. Killing it in corporate and now COVID happens. Hmm. So there is no more work. There is no more title. Yeah. And who? Who is Joe. And

Speaker 2:

who is Joe. And then when I went to, when I left Estee Lauder and I went to Farfetched, I made a conscious decision to be Joe Wong is me. Right? Because I used to. I used to reward a lot of my success to the company I worked for, not the work I did. Mm. So when I stepped away from Lauder, I was like, no, no, no, no. I did all that because of me. Once when another company approached me, I was like, oh, wait. Um, I'm actually a big deal. I'm actually, I, I can do some things. When they appreciated my skills and my expertise and my work, I then realized I'm bigger than a title. I'm bigger than a role. And that's when I really separated the two. Yes, I was who I was at work and I was very dedicated to what I did at work, but I also had my own personal brand and that's when I really started investing in social media and doing content and just speaking like about myself.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

In a way that, not worried about my perception or how people would view it. Because I think sometimes with social media, you want the audience to love you from an algorithm or whatever the case is. But what I found on social media is I found my tribe.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. You know, I

Speaker 2:

found my spiritual witchy, vegan, vegetarian, expat. Like I found my people. Yeah. And I was like, oh, we're out here. And the more I was just like really honest and authentic about who I was, an identity. In these platforms, the more I found my people. I love that. In that

Speaker:

I love that. And you've taught me that. You've told me time and time again, sneak, I wanna see more of you online. And I'm working on it. I'm working on it. I'm definitely gonna do that. But I think you pointed out something that is so unique and powerful that I wanted to just double click on. Look, my corporate speak, double click, like circle back. Right? Circling back. About the, that unique moment where you start to separate your role in your company with your skills. Mm-hmm. I think it's black women often we are just like, you know, we are achieving a quota, we're building the projects, we are making sure things are getting. Done for the company, and so much of our effort, we equate to an entity and a role, but we don't. Mm-hmm. Sometimes look in the mirror and say, Ika, look at what you've learned. Look at what you've accomplished. Right? Mm-hmm. And then focus on those skills and highlight those skills. Mm-hmm. Because those skills is what empowers you as a professional, but then it also reassures you as a human being that you're growing and you're becoming who you wanna be. No, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I think when I decided to do my MBA, it was also to validate myself because I know, I know the work.

Speaker:

Yeah,

Speaker 2:

right. But it was, it was a confirmation for me to say all this experience. It wasn't by mistake. Yeah. The success. The success I had, and that's what the MBA confirmed for me. I, I understood the content. I'll have more context now to speak to things in a, a different level of confidence, and I'm happy I did it the way I did it. I'm happy I didn't stop working and go and do it to validate myself. I did it after I found some great success, but yeah, I agree. I think sometimes, yeah, we, we don't. I see this with the founders I work with, we don't value ourselves enough in terms of what we charge. Yeah. Our prices, our value in terms of access to us. Yeah. The work we contribute and give to companies, we will put ourselves through burnout to prove ourselves.

Speaker:

We will.

Speaker 2:

And that that in itself is just, is one of the barriers we face.

Speaker:

All the time. Right, and I think it's, I think a part of that is knowing your identity separate from all the things. Right. Separate from being the mom, being the wife, being the partner, being the executive, being the corporate girly. Mm-hmm. A large portion of that is making space to be, well, and I talk about this all the time, that if we are not pursuing wellness for Sonika, like if Sonika is not saying, what does Sonika need today? Do I need a power of silence? Do I need tea? Do I need to walk? Do I need to get out my own head? We are easily so critical of. Like who we are. Like, oh, you know, you have an attitude. Oh, you know, you short, like, you know what I mean? We're so critical of ourselves sometimes that we don't even make space for wellness. Mm-hmm. To become who we are. Right.

Speaker 2:

And I think in addition to that, we don't show up in those spaces as ourselves. Mm. Similar to when I started working in corporate. I came in as this character. Of myself or this, yes. You know, this, this person that I'm not, yeah. But I felt the same in marriage relationship. I felt the same becoming a mother, you know, moms don't do that, or this and this. And I've just made a commitment that I'm gonna show up in all these roles, still my, my identity. Yeah. In my way. Yeah. You know, um, not pushing that down. I am a fun mom. I love to dance. I love to have a good time with my daughter, that that's who we are. Yeah. You know? And if I didn't show up like that, I would be becoming something else.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So I think

Speaker 2:

it's just like protecting your identity in these different roles as well, and not suppressing it.

Speaker:

How did you get comfortable doing that? Right? I think it's such a journey. Do you think COVID was your journey in becoming more comfortable in the identity of Joe and then taking the layers?'cause I always see it as the nucleus, right? You just, the identity of me and then it's the mom, then it's, it's all the things outside of that. How did you get comfortable there?

Speaker 2:

I don't even know if I still am. Sometimes though I feel like it's been a journey and I'm still on the journey. Yes, because you still have like the saboteur moments or voices.

Speaker:

Yes. And you'll always have moments and it's okay, but I know, but I think it's accepting that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And just knowing, just function better when I'm like that. It's almost just like it's It's a necessity.

Speaker:

Yeah. To get

Speaker 2:

by.

Speaker:

Yeah, like my

Speaker 2:

girlfriend messaged me today and she's like, can we go out dancing this weekend? I was like, please, can we, I need to hear some music. Like, I need to not suppress that part of me because I'm a mom now and this and this and you know, you'll be 40. I just, I still have to like feed that. I still have to pour into myself in that way

Speaker:

because then once we start to put those things away, we become less and less of who we are. Mm-hmm. And then start to fall for who we've been told we should be. Like you said, like if you're a mom, you can't do this. If you're not, you know, you're a founder, you can't do this. And it ultimately, it slowly just decreases our value of who we are. Agree,

Speaker 2:

agree. Not believing that

Speaker:

who I am today, it's probably not who I wanna be. You know, I still have goals and aspirations as we all do, but part of that getting comfortable with identity is knowing that it's an, it's a journey that I am guiding.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And I think there's also the element of deep program deprogramming yourself to what identity you've been taught.

Speaker:

Mm.

Speaker 2:

Girl

Speaker:

you know, we from the Caribbean, you,

Speaker 2:

yeah. So there's been a lot of decentering of what a companion partner does and what a career looks like, and you know what I mean? And it's just like, it doesn't bring anybody. It doesn't serve anybody right to, to become something just because that's what they say or that's what you've been told. But I've always been wanting to question. Things, the rules, you know? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker:

But that is a good thing. And tell me how, how do you think you're, you're pouring that into river now? Like how, how is Joe as the mom helping her find a, her identity is just a little bean right now, but every single thing. Right? A loud

Speaker 2:

one. Yeah. I, yeah. I think it's just been, I think just letting her embrace herself and her, yeah. She is who she is and she has a very unique, very specific personality and she has a fight in her. Yes. And she's very emotionally in tuned. Yes. You know, when she's upset and she's very vulnerable, and even if it inconveniences me or stresses me, I just let her have it because I want her to embrace that as well. Um, and she's, she's very intuitive in terms of energies, so I realize like my energy. It's very transferrable to her. So something I'm still, you know, work in progress, but I try to be present.'cause now she's so funny, like if I'm on my phone, she goes in my face like this, like,

Speaker:

hello girl, you don't see me sitting right here. Her face said, girl, you, you don't see me sitting right here. You don't see me. I'm looking at you. And I was like,

Speaker 2:

put this phone down and turn the ring on. But. Yeah. And I, and instead of just being like, okay for her, that's rude. You know, I'm just like, she has a point. Yeah. You know, let me be present. So yeah, I'm en I'm enjoying letting her embrace her uniqueness. That's,

Speaker:

and I love that you're, that you're speaking of her in that way, right? Her unique specific identity. Because in the Caribbean culture, in the pursuit to run from shame, right? Because I think everything is, oh my God, are you gonna discre me? Mm-hmm. And the pursuit to run from shame. We fall for the programming that, you know, our grandparents and they didn't even agree with. Mm-hmm. But in order to acclimate just in the you know, same restrictions that we find in, in you in other environments like school and corporate, in order to acclimate Yeah. You kind of, you wanna protect your child and your family member in a way by giving them this programming mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Of what their identity should be so that they can be more acceptable.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. No, I agree. I think. Pick your partners who you're gonna have a child with. Very wisely

Speaker:

girl. We

Speaker 2:

we're very aligned in terms of how we wanna raise her. We're both very invested in the education and the development. And he'll send me like articles about separation anxiety or this, and there's just too many resources in 2025 to say, I didn't know or making certain. We're gonna make mistakes. That's inevitable. Absolutely. But if I can do, you know, she was really difficult to sleep and everybody gave me, you know, their 2 cents on what she needs to do and blah, blah blah. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna bring in a sleep like coach and just. Get somebody to train her.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Um, it was the best 220 pounds I've ever spent in my life. Nice. And I got a professional to come in and support it. Yeah. And now I can go anywhere in the world. And she has a nap. She goes to sleep, she puts herself to sleep, whatever. I remember I went back to Trinidad and everybody's like, what she does, school should sleep and by herself and a crying, but they couldn't believe it. And I'm like, the resources.

Speaker:

Just the resources work. Like everything is not bush tea and you know, a warm rag, like No, no. And

Speaker 2:

I get that's how you raised us and we survived. And I hear that all the time.

Speaker 3:

Yes. But you

Speaker 2:

see me and my child, I want to sleep. Okay. So I was like.

Speaker:

We are doing things differently. Well also what you know better, you wanna do better. Right, exactly.'cause while, and I say this to my family all the time, yes, we're here and you know, we live through and, and survive through it. So if it was good for us, it should be good. Same thing for my daughters. Right. But I think once you know better, you have the ability to do better and helping shape. The identity, especially we have daughters. We are raising black women in this world.

Speaker 3:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

You have to be mindful of that, you know what I mean? And how do we help them navigate that with a strong foundation? Because it will always be a journey. Listen, we gonna be sitting here at 80 something, sip and tea. You know what I mean? Clicking our cocktails like, girl, I don't even know. Yeah. It's a, it's a journey, but if we are well on this journey. It's so much, it, it, it's so much more fruitful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. And you know, as you know, you know River's biracial. Yes. And she's growing up in London, in the uk and it's not, you know, you come from a world where black is black, but that's not the case here. And I think it's going to be really interesting seeing how she leans into her identity, you know, as having an American, Caribbean mother.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And as well as a white English father and family. And we're, and it's one, the reason why I wanted to raise her in East London is I wanted her to be in an environment where she feels comfortable in her identity. She doesn't feel like she needs to tick a box. And you know, one of her best friends in nurseries, Japanese and Russian, like she's in, she's in her element. And she's exposed to different cultures and mixtures and backgrounds and, but I did it'cause I wanted her to feel confident in her identity and not feel like a fish outta water somewhere.

Speaker:

And I also think what's most powerful than anything else is that I am river. Right. Mm-hmm. And I think I came to that junction as well as, as a young, like I wanna say in elementary school, right? Because people always tell me, you don't, I remember being so irritated as a child, people telling me, you don't look like a Jamaican. Like, what does a Jamaican look like? That's the most ignorant statement I've ever heard. Mm-hmm. But I always feel like I am sonika. Right? Mm-hmm. These boxes were created to make human beings easily digestible, right? Mm-hmm. To make their identity easily digestible to the masses. Yeah. What if none of us are just a box?

Speaker 2:

No. No. And I think, I think when you challenge somebody and you don't fit in their box of what they perceive, that's what gets like uncomfortable.

Speaker:

Yes. Agreed, but why I, and I love this discussion because it helps shape the definition of what an identity should be. It actually is uncomfortable.

Speaker 3:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know what

Speaker:

I mean? Because an identity is a journey, I think, for me.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm. I feel like identity. Should be looked at as multiple things can exist at once. Mm. Right. So I can be black, I could be of mixed heritage with the Asian last name. I could be Trinidadian, I could have, you know, American cultural experience. I could be all these things at once. One doesn't cancel the other. You know, if I am choking black on a box, it doesn't mean my grandfather wasn't Chinese. You know what I mean? Like it's not, and I think it's this idea of one identity canceling another. Oh, you know, I am, I am bisexual. I happen to marry a man. Yeah. You know, it doesn't cancel that as my identity and who I am. And a lot of people are like, why do you still even. You know, acknowledge or recognize. Identify it. Exactly. And I'm like, because I didn't stop. Yeah. You know, because I'm like, you didn't just go click no more. You know? Yes. It still exists. So identities can exist and coexist all at once. And I think that's fine. You know? And I think if people accepted that, it would just be a lot less labor intensive because they're like, but you said she's from so and so, but why does she do that? And this, this, and I'm like, you're spending so much energy trying to figure out this person when they're just showing up as the, this is who they are.

Speaker:

That part. That part.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I mean, but we're just all guilty of it. Right. And it's just being Caribbean like. And, and my husband calls me all the time. He can't tell me a story and not tell me who they are. He's like, so and so, and this person got in an accident. I was like, they were, and they were from, and he's like, why do you always need to know that? I was like, I'm sorry, but when you're Caribbean, you need faces. I need to know, like I'm trying to illustrate the story in my mind, context. Give me all the things. Context, context, context. I'm like, African from what country? Yes. Ghana, Nigeria,

Speaker:

it's like, I need to know all this. Yes. But I also say it forces us to challenge our own belief system. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Because when someone's like, oh, she was Trinidadian, we know that we all have inherited biases. Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So when you hear she's Trinidadian, in your mind, you think she's like this. Oh, she was in there cussing up the plaza. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Or you hear she was Jamaican. Oh, she had an attitude and you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. You. But I think exploring your own personal identity, it forces you to look straight at your biases.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that completely. And I think the cultural norms thing has been really interesting. Here because it's weird. I get this kind of like Diaspora pass'cause I'm Trinidad and they're like, oh, you're not American. I was like, no, I am very much. You know? But it's just easier for them to identify. And it's just seeing all the different like multifaceted views of everyone's identity. You know, African Americans are like this and Caribbean people are like this and Nigerians are like this and Ghanaians, and you're this, you're this. And it just. Yeah, like people feel really comfortable in that and what I appreciate is like. Conversations like this where I get to pull back the layers and introduce more of myself to people. You know, I don't cook. I don't care to cook. I don't like cooking. I love to eat, but I don't cook. Right? And people come to my house and they can't believe all that food's cooked by the English white man. And I'm like, I don't cook so I don't know what to eat. You know, like, so yeah, like a lot. You know, most nine women are proud of the, oh girl, you not me. Listen, you

Speaker:

preaching to the choir. I remember being a teenager telling my mother, I ain't doing all this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know,'cause they will come in the kitchen, look how much season you put and how you cook. And I'm just like, I'm not doing all this. Granted I cook now but not'cause I want to or outta sheer necessity out a she that I'm, and I'm not one of those people that's like, come on over, I'm gonna make you a spread. I'm gonna call a caterer. Because I too wanna enjoy said gathering. No, not Bill for. Not Bill. I'm gonna call her caterer. But what we can do together is make these cocktails. That's what we can do. We can exactly what I think part of the ident, I think again, they were sold the package of what your identity should be as a Caribbean woman. Yeah, it should be someone who, you know, cook like, you know what I mean? Yeah. You gotta cook, you gotta clean, you gotta, and then I think so much of this programming steals. Our essence of who we actually are, right? Mm-hmm. Because instead of you pouring into your interest, and listen, I really like to draw, you know, I really like to sew. I really like computers. Instead of you pouring into the things that your innate interest and the things you love and the things that's calling you, you go, whoa, whoa, whoa. I first gotta hit the program. I gotta, I gotta, right? I gotta, I gotta put some energy towards hitting the program of the identity that I was given.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And I think, yeah, I agree.

Speaker:

So many women sometimes get caught up in that, right? Yeah. Especially after you have a baby. When once you become a mother, whoa, whoa. Here's a new program. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like, yeah. I always go, who wrote these rules? Who said that? Man. A man who wrote it benefits from it. Who said this? It's like soon as you become a mom, and I don't know, it just comes from the ecosystem of like, here's the pamphlet, here's the program now. Mm-hmm. This is who you are. Your identity is mother, and because your MO identity is now mother, this is what you should be doing and this is who you should be.

Speaker 2:

And I think you should also give yourself permission to change your identity in terms of like what you. Perceive yourself to be and, and everyone evolves. Yes. You know, and that is fine and give yourself permission, but I think it's just, it's growth, right? Your identity and how you walk around in your twenties changes very much in your thirties. I'm now creeping, knocking on 40 and mm-hmm. It's just, I mean, just in a different place. I'm in a very different place and I'm just enjoying the journey.

Speaker:

To be honest, and that I think is the best part, right, is to enjoy the journey of your identity. I think that is a blessed place for us to wrap because who you are is who you want to become, and it's an ever changing flow, right? We are evolving, we're growing, and give yourself grace, because sometimes in that growth process, there can be things that you can then account as regression. Yeah, right. Yeah. But maybe it's not regression. Maybe it's actually you going back to what you should have been doing this entire time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I completely

Speaker:

agree. Joe, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you. This is amazing. I really enjoyed it. I always say, this is why I love this podcast so much, because sharing our experiences and how we come to identify identity, there's every single person watching this, listening to this podcast can recall the moment that they said, who am I really? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How that has changed so much to who they are today, as well as who they wanna be tomorrow. And it's okay to be on that journey, but above all, make time to be well. Can I agree more? Oh, Joe, thank you so much. Before we let you go, tell the people where to find you.'cause you know, Joe's a big, big star out here in these streets. I just want y'all to know that like we don't have no thinking thanking, don't, don't do all that. We don't have no thinking, thanking people on the podcast.

Speaker 2:

Um, I'm Rey. It's Who is Joe Long. On everything. Yes. So yeah. Who is

Speaker:

J-O-W-O-N-G? Awesome. And follow Joe on all platforms. And thank you so much for listening and watching this episode. Thank you. Of how do you divine identity?