The Kindness Matters Podcast

Reclaiming Yourself

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Ever felt that dizzy aftertaste of a conversation where everything somehow becomes your fault? We sit down with coach and mentor Kyle Miller to untangle the confusion around narcissistic abuse, the misuse of the word “narcissist,” and the practical steps that help survivors reclaim clarity, confidence, and peace.

Kyle shares a grounded way to tell patterns apart, focusing on three crucial signals: accountability, empathy, and compassion. From there, we explore how emotional abuse hides in plain sight—not as one dramatic event, but as a string of small, explainable moments that add up to harm. Kyle explains why rumination is the mind’s attempt to make sense of chaos and how validation turns looping thoughts into a coherent story you can finally put down. We also dig into the difference between niceness and kindness, why your downtime counts as a real appointment, and how to build boundaries that protect your energy without isolating you from healthy connection.

For friends watching from the outside, Kyle offers a better approach than “just leave.” You’ll hear why questions beat ultimatums, how intermittent reinforcement keeps people stuck, and what earned trust looks like after you’ve been burned. Along the way, Kyle shares parts of his own journey—how one blunt, caring challenge saved him from a false story about himself—and the coaching practices he uses to help clients move from survival to a life that feels like theirs again.

If you’re sorting through gaslighting, rebuilding self-trust, or trying to support someone you love, this conversation pairs clear definitions with compassionate tools you can use today. Want more of these insights and resources? Subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help others find the show.

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SPEAKER_00:

Hello everyone and welcome to the Kindness Matters Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Raff. On this podcast, we promote positivity, empathy, and compassion. Because we believe that kindness is alive and well, and there are people and organizations that you may not have heard of in the world, making our communities a better place for everyone. And we want you to hear their stories. On this podcast, we talk about matters of kindness. Because kindness matters. Hey everybody, good welc good welcome. Good welcome. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the Kindness Matters Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Rathbun, and um I I just I want to take a second and say thank you for um showing up for me today. Um I know many of you are are loyal listeners, but some of you are new and you just found out about this show and you made a conscious choice to choose to spend uh 30-ish minutes of your time uh listening to some upbeat uh information, some upbeat content. And uh first of all, I applaud you for making that choice, and second of all, I thank you for making the choice that is my podcast. I appreciate it. Um I have an amazing show for you guys today. It's so much fun. Uh today's guest is uh Kyle Miller. And uh Kyle is a dedicated coach and mentor who specializes in helping survivors of uh narcissistic abuse reclaim their confidence, heal, and thrive. Drawing from his own journey and professional expertise, Kyle empowers individuals to move uh beyond survival, break the cycle of overthinking, and rediscover self-compassion. Through personalized coaching, online resources, a deep commitment to building a supportive community, Kyle inspires others to pursue lasting transformation with kindness and resilience at the center of every step. Welcome to the show, Kyle. Thank you so much for being on today.

SPEAKER_01:

You're welcome. Thank you for having me on. I'm I'm really excited about this. Uh the pleasure is all mine.

SPEAKER_00:

I I and I okay, so let's talk about for a second quick light. And we've uh first of all, I think we're hearing the term narcissist more in the last ten years or so. Yeah, we've all they've always been out there, right? This is not a new personality trait out there. Why do you think we're hearing more about them?

SPEAKER_01:

I think uh I think there's a lot more awareness. I mean, we have the the internet and and all of the social media and um and and it's certainly brought a lot more awareness um and understanding to uh abusive toxic relationships. And and I think that's been helpful. I think um on the other side, it has been maybe perhaps not as helpful that um that it's a real easy way for people to um not take any accountability and to throw it on other people. Um so anybody that that doesn't do what you want, or they're um, you know, or they're they have boundaries, or they lied to you, or any of the things that people do, then all of a sudden they're all a bunch of narcissists. And and I think that that is perhaps not as helpful. And it's you know, it I think a lot of this is it's the same cycle that we go through with each new understanding, awareness, learning, any of those things. And and uh and so so yeah, but I think you know, really the social media, and I think there's there's I would say there's probably for the most part, there's a lot more benefit than there is downside, although some of the downside is pretty not wonderful.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Can you give me an example of that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, just I mean, really, just with uh with people throwing the word around a lot and um and so it really um not having what the actual meaning is and and you know narcissism um and and not talking about NPD, you know, narcissistic uh personality disorder. Um but but it it is a it's a collective of a whole bunch of different toxic or abusive traits. And and that's that's the the benefit of of the word, but it's not always used right. Um that's I I do I do uh I'm I'm trying to think of the exact quote, but I don't think that word what means what you think it means. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

You keep using it. I do not think it means what you think it means.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

With apologies to Mandy Petinkin.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but uh and and the way the way that I differentiate uh is there's there's a whole lot of different traits that we would point out and say that are narcissistic traits. And so, you know, gaslighting and and manipulation and um you know stonewalling, a lot of those different things. And and the the line of differentiation, because if you look at those traits, those traits are also very similar, and some of them line directly up with people that have ADHD or codependency or insecure attachment, uh, CPTSD, I'm sure a whole host of other different diagnoses or issues that we can have. And a lot of them have very similar tendencies that look like from the outside narcissistic tendencies. And they've they come from a very different place, though, because narcissists are all about power and control. And all of the other, you know, insecure attachment or codependency, all of those things are a are them striving for um for connection or to protect themselves. Okay. And so it's it's very different. You know, narcissists are all about power and control, and most of the rest of the people, whether they're dysfunctional or not, they're either striving for connection or or closeness, or they're trying to protect themselves. And that's why they do those things the way that they do. And and we could argue also that narcissists are trying to protect themselves and get their needs met and all of that. Um, but uh, but it's usually in a very not healthy and usually toxic way.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. For sure. Um so and I was gonna, I think you just did though. I was going to say, well, maybe it would be helpful to have a definition of what a narcissist is, but I think you just did that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um Yeah, the and and I could add to the the big the big three things that I look at are accountability, compassion, and empathy. And without those two of those, right? They they lack three, usually.

SPEAKER_00:

They lack all three accountability.

SPEAKER_01:

And they they might be able to fake um empathy. Um they they can kind of pretend like they have some sort of accountability, but but most most often, I mean, and pretty much if they're if it's a narcissist, they don't have those three. Um they might be able to fake some of it, but they don't actually have them. And and so um so that's kind of the line that I that I draw. If they have a whole bunch of different toxic tendencies, and then they lack accountability, empathy, and compassion, then they might be leaning more towards maybe possibly potentially being maybe a narcissist.

SPEAKER_00:

There's a whole lot of caveats in there.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I and I just I I really withhold judgment because we we don't we don't really ever know. And I think that's what makes all of this so hard, because you don't know if if the person that is really dysfunctional and they seem loud and angry and throwing a fit and and all of those things, they very well could be the person that is being abused. And and we don't we don't know because if somebody continues to push all of your buttons all the time, and then you blow up as a result of that, we always want to point out, well, look how they, you know, I mean, I broke a lot of stuff when I was in toxic relationships. I I really, I mean, I didn't break people. I'm very grateful, unfortunate for that, but um, but I broke a lot of things. So looking in from the outside, they would say, oh my gosh, he's loud and angry and reactionary, and he breaks things, and that looks like a toxic person. Well, it's hard for anyone when they get their buttons pushed enough for them to not at a certain point blow up. That's it's natural. That's a natural tendency for us, and it should be. Um, but but so we we just we don't know if if this person is is throwing a fit because they had all their buttons pushed, or if they're throwing a fit to try and make the other person afraid and make the com make them comply. Okay. And they look very, very similar.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I yeah. I I'm I'm trying to think back in my my other relationships, and and I don't think I don't think I was, but you never know. Which leads me to my next question is uh what led you to become a coach for survivors of narcissistic abuse specifically? I mean, how and and it's a two-part question. How do you help clients move beyond survival to truly thrive? And that may be a really long answer, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, a little bit, I suppose. Um I I never planned on getting into coaching on this. It was that was never in the cards. I never even contemplated thinking about it. I, you know, I was gonna coach entrepreneurs or high performance athletes or something like that. Yeah. And uh and the more healing work that I did, I continued to have lots of different little synchronicities that happened with people that would show up in my life that needed help with toxic relationships. And um, and I never really settled into what I actually wanted to coach on until I looked at this as a possibility. And and I did, I did a lot of healing work. There were, you know, years of me going through coaching and um and therapy for myself, as well as, you know, I've studied personal development now for 20 years. And so so there there was a lot to get me there, but but it was the first thing that really touched my heart because I know what it's like to feel completely hopeless and alone. And and that's something, you know, it it's still that one still gets me. It's still emotional to me. And it's not something that I want anyone to ever go through. And and when I when I really thought about actually being able to help people and help people in a way that I wish that I would have had somebody actually show up and do for me. Because I had to, I had to do so much work to get help from the professionals that I went to to get help from. I had to, I had to really work through how to present what I was struggling with to the therapist or the coach so that they could help me work through it. I I didn't get to just show up and just spill my guts and have them help me sort through the pieces and figure this out and work through it. Because uh in a in a lot of cases, I was actually, um they would gaslight me. I mean, unknowingly, I don't think they were intending on that.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

But but it's emotional abuse, it's it's much harder to work through and figure out because it's not this one thing that happened. If somebody hits you, you can see that one thing that happened that was abuse. They just hit me. And with emotional abuse, usually it's five or 10 or 20 or 50 different things that happen that when you look at each one of those things, it doesn't really look like abuse. And it can be explained away, it can be excused. But when you string all of those together, you see the trend and the pattern of abuse and manipulation. Yeah. And it's one of the reasons that it's so hard for us to realize we're being abused, and then also to put the pieces together so that we can process it and let go in order to move forward with our lives. Well, and so I so I had to put, I had to really think through how am I going to present this to the therapist or coach in order for them to help me work through this specific struggle that I'm going through. And that's not something any of my clients have to do, which is probably the first part of this, is uh is they just get to show up as themselves and just dump all the garbage out of their head, and I will help them sort through, work through all of the different pieces. And and a lot of it is um is I I acknowledge, you know, I acknowledge what they've gone through. I understand it beyond what most other people understand it because I've lived it. And and that's that is healing in a way because most people were looking for first the validation that we're not crazy. Most of the people that come to me think that they are crazy and they might be the narcissist. And yeah, and they and they're not crazy. It's I mean, it's crazy making what they went through, but they themselves are not crazy. They just can't figure out how to make sense of what happened.

SPEAKER_00:

And so is it their partner that makes them think that they may be the narcissist? Is that part of the gaslighting or part of the manipulation?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, it definitely can be. Um, it isn't necessarily always, but but the the big thing either way is that we're always blamed for everything in those relationships. And so we start to take on that identity that everything is my fault. And and for myself, you know, I spent years of my life thinking that I didn't have any empathy or compassion for anyone. And and this is, you know, this this was, and I, and I think uh this is an important thing, but I um what knocked me out of that was the right person at the right time saying the right thing. And because I I said I said something of that sort that I just I'm ruining my family's life because I don't have any empathy or compassion. And and I told that to one of my best friends, and he said, I call fucking bullshit on that. And and that that just that hit me like a ton of bricks, and it's still I'm I'm still emotional when I think about that. Because in many ways, I think he saved my life. Because because there was a lot of years where I just really didn't want to be here anymore because I thought I was causing so much harm. And and that's um that's not actually true or accurate. And and I, you know, not that I was innocent, but but I was not causing the harm that I thought I was. And so so I think with with helping people get through all of this, the the first part is under st them understanding what they actually went through and being validated that they actually went through abuse.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That this was actually what their experience was is actually true and and that they're not crazy. And then the next part is is then learning how to make sense of all of that in a way that makes sense in their mind so that then they can let go of it. Because the reason that we think all of the, we have all the thoughts, the, you know, the rumination, the thoughts running through our head over and over again, our mind is trying to make sense of it. And the reason it's running through our head is because we have not quite made sense of it in a way that makes sense to us. It might make sense to other people, it, you know, and it and it might even make sense intellectually, but if we have not made sense of it and acknowledged it emotionally, then it's very hard for us to actually process that completely and let go of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And so that's a a big part of the process. And then and then really the next part, which is probably a forever part in all of our lives, is bringing ourselves back into ourselves and learning to love and appreciate ourselves with all the flaws, all of the issues, all of the things going on, and forgiving ourselves. And I I don't think I don't think we need to forgive anyone else. I think it's great if we ever get there, but I think forgiving ourselves is the most important thing. Yeah. Because we blame ourselves for a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00:

So Yeah. No, um and that kind of brings me to another question, which um what are some ways you encourage your clients to practice compassion? And I would say this is probably for themselves and for others, in the face of self-doubt self-doubt or emotional exhaustion.

SPEAKER_01:

I think the the important though, isn't it? Oh, it's super important. Yeah, yeah, it's super important. Um, I think the first thing always is awareness. Because we we can't not beat ourselves up until we are aware that we are beating ourselves up. And in the ways that we are beating ourselves up. And and it's most often, well, this is I mean, this is just what I do. It's just just who I am, how I am, and and we don't recognize, oh, I'm being really mean to me right now. And and so that's becoming aware of all of those things, which which a lot of it comes back to thinking about our thinking. And a lot of us don't, we don't take the time to think about what we're actually thinking. And so we bring up the awareness and and then and then it's the I think it's the it's a lot in the phrasing, but it's the way that we think about it too. Um, so so when you say this thing, you know, oh, I'm so stupid, you know, I should have seen this, um, all of the things that we say, which which are shame and judgment. It's shame and judgment on ourselves for not knowing what we didn't know. And and one of the the ones with a with one of my clients just a few weeks ago, and and I was like, you know, let's just go ahead and add on to this. It that you should definitely beat yourself up for the fact that you didn't win the lotto on this last lotto, because you know what the numbers are right now. You can go look them up. So you should have obviously known what the numbers were then. So you therefore you should have won the lotto. And the light will go off. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was, and I and I love that one because it's such a good example because that's what we do. I should have seen the abuse, I should have seen the manipulation, I should have, I should have seen all of these things. But you didn't have the awareness of it then.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's and sometimes you need that that little ridiculous or or however you want to say it, you know, example for them to go, uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. And and a different, you know, it's one of the, it's probably one of the other things that I that I do as I is I learn more and more different analogies and different examples that I can give to different people because we're we're all different, you know, and and my role as a coach, if if you're not getting it for some reason and you're not moving forward, that's not on you. Because I'm I'm the professional here. So it's one of the things that I didn't get with the professionals, with most of them. Yeah. You know, they were like, well, I don't know, let's look at this in you, let's look at this in you. And and I always, as the coach, I'm like, okay, how did how could I have said that different? How can I explain it a little bit different so that they understand it? Because it's I don't work with stupid people, you know. I any of the people that, oh, well, I'm too stupid or I'm too stuck or lazy or what whatever it is, that's I mean, it's all just abuse to ourselves. And and it's not true. You know, we are we are not stupid people. And so so I just need to figure out a way to explain or talk about it or give a different analogy or or whatever else so that I can help them with the understanding.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. So uh during the healing process, um, in what ways do you see kindness and and especially personal boundaries working together during that healing process?

SPEAKER_01:

I think that um so much of us want to be nice. And one of the reasons that we get into these relationships is because we're trying to be nice. And um and I'm not always nice, but I always try to be kind. And and it sounds very similar, yeah, but there's a big difference. And and a lot of times we're being nice, but we're not being kind to ourselves. And and with a a lot of times it's it's with boundaries. And so I'm going to go help out with this thing that I don't want to go help out with, really, or go help a friend, or whatever it is. And it's and it's not that it's a bad thing to do or you shouldn't do it, but if it takes time away from time that you need for yourself, or to get things done for yourself, um, or even to just sit on the couch and do nothing at all whatsoever that you need, then it's not being kind to you.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's not being kind to them either, because, you know, and and that that's with the boundary, you know, they because that boundary of I need this time for me. Well, what, you know, and a lot of people they they want to push back on that. What do you have to do? Well, I need to sit on my couch and do absolutely nothing. That's that's why I have an appointment with myself. And and I think that's an easy thing to say, well, I have an appointment. I'm sorry, I can't make it. Yeah. Because that's a it's an easy out. Yeah. Yeah, I I have an appointment with myself. Or if you really must know me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I think boundaries are hard for some for a lot of people, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for for most people.

SPEAKER_00:

And I mean putting them in for yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. And and I I feel like, and especially with a a lot of the people when I first work with them, um, they have kind of start putting walls up. And and that's that's a codependency thing, you know, which which is which is fine, um, because I think that we should put walls up in the beginning. And um, you know, I tell all of my clients that you have no business trusting me until I have earned it. And it is the same for everyone else in your life. And and if you need to put walls up to keep all of those people out and assume that everyone is a narcissist until you have built healthy enough boundaries to only let people in that are good people that care, then you just put the walls up, and that's okay. And and that's but I think that with boundaries, with kindness, with forgiving ourselves, with loving ourselves, with all of those things, it's all something that we allow ourselves to do. And it's a process and a practice. Because we're probably never gonna be perfect at any event.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, no, nobody's perfect, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um Do you ever run into people who who come up to you and say, you know, I think my friend is is in an a toxic relationship with a narcissist, whatever. Um advice for somebody that comes up to you like that, what what what kind of advice would you give to somebody that says, How can I help my friend who's in this toxic environment and this this relationship, this whatever?

SPEAKER_01:

I think that that one of the biggest things, which is the absolute hardest thing, is for us to not try to push on them about it. Um because because I think, you know, at best, um, it just it doesn't really help them to be able to see what's going on. And at worst, they will hide away or it will push them away from the relationship with you. And and that because they don't they don't want to show up and talk with you about anything because then it's super uncomfortable because you're going to probably say something about this toxic person in their life. And and one of the one of the reasons for that is that for most of us that are in these abusive relationships, we don't really understand what's going on. And so it's very hard for us to ever articulate what actually is happening because we don't understand it. I I don't know what's, you know, I mean, in my situation, it's like every time I would go talk to my partner about an issue that we were having, I would leave the conversation very confused. I was unsure why everything was my fault, but she clearly articulated that everything was my fault. And so yeah, so I I didn't I couldn't have talked to anyone else about it because I didn't understand what was going on. And that's it's the same same way with most people. So even if we see it from the outside, then then we have to be very careful in the way that we talk with them about it. And and I think questions are always better. You know, I mean, how do you how do you feel about that? Yeah, you know, I mean, gosh, is this is this the way that they treat you a lot? I mean, are you okay with that? Um but but don't, you know, and it and it's hard because we want to push, we want to save them, we want, you know, I mean, I'm I'm guilty as charged. I'm I'm the guy that wants to go save all the people. Yeah. And and it's it's also not fair to any of them because it's very disempowering for me to go save someone else.

SPEAKER_00:

I thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I know my wife, when she was younger, was in a classic abusive relationship. It was physical, but it was also mental. Um and and she used to say, you know, well, he would say things like you're never gonna succeed at whatever it is that you choose to do. Look at yourself in the mirror, look at how ugly you are, look at how dumb you are, look at how these classic, classic um narcissistic that that would be, I'm I'm guessing narcissistic, that would fall under there.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, defin definitely could be toxic either way.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Yeah, and and I mean and and she for the longest time did not leave this relationship, even though, you know, uh the average person you're telling this to on the street would go, I'd be so out of there in five minutes. And and it just it doesn't work like that. Um she was afraid that if she left that he would harm her family, you know, her parents, her siblings, or what have you. Um and she felt trapped, right? I don't like it here but also I'm afraid to leave.

SPEAKER_01:

Is that that's a that's a very that's a very normal thing that most people go through.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, using the word normal with that type of behavior is frightening to me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well and and that's it's part of the, you know, it's part of the struggle with with all of these relationships. And when I look at narcissistic relationships, especially, that's the tip of the iceberg of the the entirety of the life that we have gone through, usually. So so that is that is the re the end result where we've gotten to in our life from all of the other experiences. And and so it's it seems normal to us in a lot of ways to be in that type of relationship, even though we don't like it and we don't want that, but it's more normal to us, otherwise we would leave. And so so there's there's a lot of stuff from the past that we've gone through. It's like, okay, where where were all of the other areas of life relationships where we were invalidated or where there was you know manipulation or um you know people shaming and judging, putting us down, um, because because there's usually a lot of that in our lives. Okay. Because because otherwise, if we if we were just healthy, we might we might slide into and accidentally get trapped in a relationship with a narcissist, but we're not going to stay there for very long because it's so opposed to what is normal for us. Right. You know, if we if we grew up in a really actually healthy family, and I know a lot of people think that their families are much more healthy than what it turns out a lot of times they actually are. And and I'm not not trying to throw, you know, shame or judgment on it. I mean, it's just it's it's not within our awareness because it's normal. We don't we don't know anything other than what it is that we grew up with. And and I think one of the other things that makes it really hard is they're not mean and terrible and abusive all the time. You know, it's there there are still good things that happen and there are things that they do for us, and of course they inflate all of those things and diminish all of the abusive things. So, because if it was just terrible all the time and it never let up, then it would be very hard for us to stay. But it's it's intermittent reinforcement. That's why people gamble, you know, it's intermittent reinforcement.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Um, Kyle, what you do is is so important, and I I really appreciate the time that you've taken with me today. Um, do you you work all over the United States, right? You don't just Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I I work remote with with all my clients, um, including the local ones. So so any anywhere that anybody is, I can if you have an internet connection and you can have a conversation, I can I can talk to you from there.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, that was kind of like my podcasting. Of course, I started it during the COVID, right? So I'm like, no, we're not doing any studio in studio. We'll do it this way. And I just got used to it, I like it that way. Um but yeah, so we would it's Kyle Millercoaching.com. Yep, that's correct. Yep. We will have uh a link in the show notes for that if you are feeling like you're in a position. Kyle's laid out a lot of of great information here. If you feel like you're in a relationship like that, um and you could use some help and it's time, give Kyle a shout.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Happy to happy to talk to anybody. Um, you know, no matter the no matter the situation, um, you can always reach out to me. Because that that is my mission of my business, is for no one to ever feel alone or hopeless.

SPEAKER_00:

Perfect. Perfect. Thank you, Kyle, for your time. I appreciate it. We will talk again soon.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks again for having me on.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Kindness Matters podcast with my guest, Kyle Miller. If you are trying to heal from a narcissistic relationship situation, um make sure to check out the show notes. You'll find his website there, and I'm I'm sure that he can be of great, great assistance to you. I trust him completely. I hope this episode left you feeling a little easier, a little more hopeful about the state of the world we all share. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to tell your friends, family, and co-workers about us. Also, don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter for more uplifting content. Every month in your inbox, completely free. There's a sign up in the show notes, and um you can check us out also on our social media sites. Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. We're everywhere, man. So check us out, follow us, share, all that good stuff. You have been listening to the Kindness Matters podcast. I am your host, Mike Rathman. We will be back again next week with a brand new episode, and we would be honored if you would join us again. But until then, remember kindness matters, and so do you.