EPISODE 013 | Flourishing Through Nature, Connection & Sustainability with Bronwyn Paynter

Today’s episode is a beautiful example of how OTs can think big in terms of their impact on the world. I’m joined by my special guest Bronwyn Paynter and as mentioned in the intro, this conversation goes in a few different directions, covering topics related to nature through an OT lens, trailblazing, sustainability, online entrepreneurship, the power of connection and finding joy in our work. 

In this episode you’ll hear about:

• How Bronwyn sees nature through an OT lens -- and trust me, it’s much more than you might think!
• Her personal journey in searching for work that filled her with joy
• Why Bronwyn started doubting herself as an OT (and how she rectified the situation)
• Her entrepreneurial journey from forest therapy guide to online business owner, niching down to serve OTs
• The connection between climate change, human occupation and sustainability
• What lights Bronwyn up in terms of helping OTs to flourish and be well

LINKS: 

Bronwyn’s Facebook page and Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/NatureOTs

Transcript

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Melissa LaPointe [00:00:03]:
Welcome to the OTs Gone Rogue podcast, where we share real stories about real OTs who are choosing to think outside the box and do things differently. I'm your host, Melissa Lapointe. Over the years, I've had the pleasure of connecting with the most remarkable therapists who are finding their way as thought leaders, changemakers, and heart-led entrepreneurs. They've helped to inspire me to think big and dig deep in my own healing journey. And it's now time to bring these conversations to a bigger stage. Together, we're going to share stories about overcoming adversity, finding our people, and taking the road less traveled, even when it feels messy and uncomfortable. Okay. Are you ready to join us? This is the OTs Gone Rogue podcast.

Melissa LaPointe [00:00:49]:
Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of the OTs Gone Rogue podcast. Before we dive into today's show, I wanted to take a moment and talk to you about one of my goals for this year, which is to really put myself out there and support thousands of OTs in terms of thinking outside the box and doing things differently in business, in women's health, and in the online space. I often joke that after doing this for a number of years, I have a tickle trunk of resources, and each week we've been choosing one of these resources to share with our audience. This could include a template, a PDF workbook, a video lesson, or a practical exercise. Something that will help to inspire you, to save you time, to organize your thoughts, or to learn something new. If you would like to sign up to one of our resource lists, I'm including the link in the show notes, or you can go to www.melissalapointe.com/resources. Okay, now let's shift gears and talk about today's episode. My special guest today is Bronwyn Painter, a true visionary OT with big ideas and an even bigger heart.

Melissa LaPointe [00:02:00]:
I've had the pleasure of working with Bronwyn for the last 9 months now, and I can't say enough about the amazing things she's doing. When we first connected, I thought she was doing really cool things with a focus on nature-based therapy. I've since discovered that there's so much more to how deep she's going with this work and with the legacy she wants to leave during her time on this planet. This conversation goes in a few different directions, which is what one should expect when you put 2 visionary OTs together. We talk about nature, of course, but we also delve into entrepreneurship, imposter syndrome, trailblazing, this idea of work-life balance, and our mutual love for serving other members of the OT profession to facilitate change. So without further ado, let's roll out this interview. Welcome Bronwyn to our podcast. I'm so excited to have you here.

Bronwyn Painter [00:02:54]:
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Melissa LaPointe [00:02:57]:
So let's start. I always start because we have an eclectic international following and my guests are from all over the world. So could we start by letting people know, they may already by your lovely accent, but where are you geographically in the world?

Bronwyn Painter [00:03:11]:
I'm in Adelaide, South Australia, and it's, um, It's 37 degrees centigrade here today, and I've just been out to give my chickens some water to help them get through the day.

Melissa LaPointe [00:03:21]:
Oh my goodness, we are in very different places right now.

Bronwyn Painter [00:03:26]:
I love that. Yeah.

Melissa LaPointe [00:03:28]:
So Bronwyn, part of this podcast, we have hosted a lot of visionary thinkers. And when I think of visionary thinkers, I think of OTs who have a really broad scope and some big ideas. And boy, do you ever fit that template. So the work that you're doing Yeah. And I'm really interested in what you're doing in terms of nature and how you're supporting OTs to incorporate nature into their professional practice. When I first heard that, I thought, oh, lovely, she teaches them about being outside and about appreciating the trees, and there's a little bit more to it, isn't there? So, let's start there. Tell me a little bit more about the work that you're doing in terms of nature and occupational therapy.

Bronwyn Painter [00:04:15]:
There is so much to it, and I just keep learning more and more about it, and that's part of why I love this work. I, you know, I would start by saying it's about thinking about what nature is, and a big part of it for me is understanding our own nature and ourselves as nature and ourselves as part of nature, not being apart from it. And you know, the whole kind of human experience is— the evolution of humans has been in nature, in close connection with nature. And so we're in tune with nature and our bodies respond to nature and we need nature for our survival. And, you know, there's so many layers to the work I do, including the fact that it's not about what people can gain from nature or, you know, harvest from nature or, use from nature, it's also about the reciprocal relationship that people have with nature and, you know, the fact that our planet is actually really suffering and as humans that's our doing. And so a lot of the work I do is very much about understanding what we need to do to nurture nature as well as how nature can nurture us. From an OT perspective, I guess You know, I really immersed myself in reading an enormous amount of evidence over a couple of years and actually really struggling with how this was OT and where was the link with OT.

Melissa LaPointe [00:05:48]:
Yeah.

Bronwyn Painter [00:05:50]:
And, you know, have got to a place now where I am so certain about that and so clear about how nature is the optimal environment to support function in every way. And that's what OTs, you know, that's what we care about, is about people's ability to do the things they want to do in their everyday lives. There are so many ways that we can partner with nature to help people achieve that.

Melissa LaPointe [00:06:14]:
Okay. Now, how would this apply— because when I think of nature, when I think of supporting OTs to do this work, of course, I think of rural settings, I think of being out in the wilderness, being away from technology, being away from people. How would this apply to OTs who are in more urban settings, who are in city centers? How would they begin to even incorporate nature?

Bronwyn Painter [00:06:42]:
I start by saying that nature is everywhere. You know, we are nature. And so even in those moments in our lives where we feel so separated from those natural outdoor environments, we still have the ability to tune into ourselves. And, you know, even simple things like connecting with our breathing and our heart rate is about connecting with nature. And so if we say we're separated from nature, then we're saying we're separated from ourselves. And so, there are so many ways to work with nature that doesn't involve being outside even. And there's evidence for all of these. This is what I love.

Bronwyn Painter [00:07:22]:
You know, if we consider our senses, there's ways to connect with nature through what we can see, through things like biophilic design, where we can design our interior environments to reflect nature, to use the colours of nature, the textures, materials from nature, to bring nature inside I've seen some beautiful things around, for example, having a curated seasonal collection of nature objects that you have an outdoor experience, connect emotionally with where you are, and collect and gather and bring those things back into the inside environment. To use those objects in a therapeutic way, even to manipulate them, to sort them. I'm a real sorter. My children have more— like, we say Lego in Australia. South Australia, but Lego. And, you know, that's kind of my favorite way to play with Lego is to sort and categorize. And, you know, we can, we can use those skills and abilities with natural objects as well. We can use the smell of nature, you know, we can use essential oils or wood.

Bronwyn Painter [00:08:33]:
You know, there's, there's evidence about the essential oils given off by certain species of trees, like largely conifers. that impacts our immune system and our, you know, to a quite reductionistic level, our natural killer T cells. So, you know, we can engage with the smells, we can engage with the textures and bring all those things inside. There's evidence about interacting with nature in a virtual way. So even screensavers on our computers, you know, we're all looking at computers probably more than we ever have. And so to incorporate nature images, there is evidence about how— I mean, there's things like functional MRI imaging where, you know, they look at brain function showing images of an urban environment and then showing images of nature, and it changes our brain function. So, you know, there are lots of opportunities to find ways to connect with nature, even when we can't be, you know, in what we would traditionally think of nature being, which is outside.

Melissa LaPointe [00:09:40]:
Fascinating stuff. Now, in your work, how did you even get started in terms of this being your focus?

Bronwyn Painter [00:09:51]:
I got started because I needed it myself, and I think this is the story for so many OTs who are doing work that they truly love. And for me, I have worked almost all of my career since 1993. I've worked in employment. So I've never worked in the health system as such. I've always worked for large employers and doing things like managing work health safety, managing people with workplace injuries, and managing employee wellbeing programs. And I still do that work. And I still add value. But I'd got to a place where I just wanted something different and I desperately wanted to be outside.

Bronwyn Painter [00:10:37]:
And I also had, you know, a number of personal challenges and family challenges with serious injury and deaths and, you know, our son being seriously ill that really got me to a place of questioning what on earth was I doing with my life? And what was, why was I working so hard and how could I do something that actually filled me with joy? And so I actually went to, I went to an open day at a permaculture farm. And this was from a place where I actually was pretty depressed. And I'd started by doing this little community course on living more sustainably. And I really loved it. And I met some like-minded people, and I think this is key. I started meeting new people doing different things, and I went to this farm open day, and it was sort of everything I love about food growing and living sustainably. And there was someone there who was talking about a new graduate certificate program in permaculture. And so permaculture is about how we live more sustainably on the planet.

Bronwyn Painter [00:11:49]:
Using less fossil fuels, basically. So food growing and living in connected community. And so I just felt super inspired. And so I enrolled in that program, which was a 12-month program. And they had deliberately, you know, tried to get students from many, many different walks of life. And it was just inspiring to interact with a whole different group of people. And I did all my work in that program around the health aspect of permaculture and how living sustainably, living in close connection with other people, relying on other people instead of our kind of Western idealized individualism, you know, was better for our health. And so I I mean, I had a coach at the time who said to me, maybe it's time to move on from being an OT.

Bronwyn Painter [00:12:47]:
And that honestly upset me so much that I really kind of went deep into what was that about for me and made my focus understanding how nature related to health and how that fit within our OT scope of practice. And I just kind of went further and further reading evidence. I went to sort of in my period of extending myself beyond my usual kind of daily activities. I went to a talk that was given by, um, a woman in Adelaide who had trained as a forest therapy guide. And when she was talking about the training and talking about the, what forest therapy is, I just felt so emotional, excited, amazed. And I just thought I need to go and find out about this and do this. And so through that process, I trained in that program as a forest therapy guide. And it gave me a modality that I could use to work with people in nature from the perspective of an OT, um, wanting to help people.

Bronwyn Painter [00:13:55]:
I mean, it's really a mental health intervention from my perspective and a wellbeing intervention, but you know, how to help people feel better in their day-to-day and support them in translating that across to being able to do the things that they wanted to do. So somehow through all that, I just found a way to combine the evidence about nature through an OT lens and create a way to work as an OT in nature.

Melissa LaPointe [00:14:20]:
Okay, I want to back up a little bit in terms of your— in terms of the coach that had recommended or suggested perhaps it's time that you leave the OT profession. What motivated or what instigated that comment? Was it you feeling a little bit lost and disconnected from the OT profession, or was it your coach's perspective that they were seeing you stepping away from the OT profession in a way that was lighting you up? So what was the instigating factor to that comment?

Bronwyn Painter [00:14:53]:
I think it was around me expressing often and with a lot of emotion that I wasn't sure if I was really a proper OT. I wasn't sure if I was doing OT the way it was meant to be. And I was in a workplace, I've almost always worked in isolation as an occupational therapist. And, you know, I actually think that's really so not ideal because I would have people say to me, oh, that's not occupational therapy. Like what? Like, you're not, you're not doing occupational therapy in this workplace. And it started to erode my confidence. And yeah, so it was kind of in that context of me doubting myself as an OT and that being, you know, one, one option. Well, you know, if, if it's not working out, maybe you walk away.

Bronwyn Painter [00:15:46]:
And I guess my response to that was I changed jobs and I went to work for an OT business because I thought, well, these are all OTs, surely they'll teach me how to be a proper OT. And this is, I mean, like I'd worked as an OT since 1993. This was only like probably 5 years ago.

Melissa LaPointe [00:16:06]:
Yeah.

Bronwyn Painter [00:16:07]:
And I went there and I did that work and it was quite different to what I'd done and I found it really challenging. But through that process, I actually just became much more confident about the kind of OT that I was and the perspective that I had. And it actually just reinforced for me that there are so many different ways to practice as an OT, and that my version was just as valid as other ways of working. Yeah.

Melissa LaPointe [00:16:34]:
And I think there are certainly a lot of OTs that would relate to that in terms of, you know, in the way I think of it is, you know, we have this box. And during OT school, we were trained. And yes, they tried to teach us in terms of theories and in terms of thinking big. But the reality was the blueprints that we were taught or that, that, you know, our teachings were based on, it created this box of what OT is and how to practice. And then there are many of us, we're like ping-pongs bouncing around this box and recognizing or feeling like there's more to it than this, and do I have to let go of my OT title in order to escape this box?

Bronwyn Painter [00:17:24]:
Mm-hmm.

Melissa LaPointe [00:17:25]:
And once we get out of the box, our foundational training so often brings us back, but yet with more confidence. You know, as we get out of the box, we're able to practice and try different things, but for many of us, we then have these aha moments of, wait a second, this is OT, and we come back stronger And more intentional and with so much more clarity on how, yes, this is occupational therapy. It may not be how I've learned or different, you know, it may be outside of the scope of what we've been taught, but we know deep in our bones that, yes, this is a unique approach or this is a way we can do it in terms of practicing as an OT.

Bronwyn Painter [00:18:12]:
Oh, I absolutely agree. And that was exactly my experience with going off doing this permaculture course because it forced me back to having to write in an academic way about and explain what OT is, you know, because I was writing for non-OTs and it was, I mean, you know, it's sort of this perpetual unhelpful thing that we as OTs say about, oh, it's so hard to explain the profession, but it's really not. It's so simple. And in that process, I went back to reading, you know, the World Federation of OT definition of OT and reading, you know, there's a definition for every country that's a member of WFOT. So I went back to reading that, you know, our own literature about what our profession is, what our values are, what our priorities are, how we work with people. And it was— I actually found it so exciting. It was like sort of, you know, when you start university and you start to learn about the profession and the potential of how we work. It was, it just reconnected me with that process again.

Bronwyn Painter [00:19:20]:
And just gave me the basics again about, you know, OTs work with people, with their environments, with their occupations. And it's about focusing on supporting people to live with more ease and joy in their everyday life. And I've had so many conversations with OTs who I've worked with in the last couple of years about that, about what is it that unites us, what is it that are our core values, and the outcomes that, like, where are we trying to help people get to. And so I started using the word joy, which I learned from an OT who I worked with last year in my program. And she, you know, she used this word joy, and we've all started using it in my little OT nature family because It just, just makes me feel a whole lot better about what we can achieve with people. Um, and I really do think we, we do, you know, we care about what our clients care about and, um, you know, connecting them with, with the ability to feel joy in their everyday can be really profound. I really tested what I was doing as well. Like I deliberately put myself really uncomfortably in front of my profession, um, as a deliberate attempt to test it.

Bronwyn Painter [00:20:33]:
So I, I've presented at The first thing I presented at was a private practice forum for OTs, and I spoke about my work with nature. And then I presented in 2019 at our Australian National Conference, and I was talking about what I do working with nature as an OT. And I did those things deliberately because I thought, well, if they accept my paper and I stand up in front of my profession and talk about what I'm doing and no one tells me it's not OT, well, then that's my tick of approval. And I felt like I really needed that tick of approval. I've had lots of conversations with like leaders of our profession in Australia and academics to just test my thinking because I'm a person who likes a bit of external validation. And I found it really helpful and just really encouraging to, to talk with other OTs who can see, you know, who see it through that, through that lens of what's possible and why nature is important for us.

Melissa LaPointe [00:21:36]:
Oh, I love that. And I love that you put yourself out there. You know, that is a bit of a risk and I can certainly relate to that, but that you really received that validation, you know, that really speaks to the work that you're doing. So coming back to that, in terms of the work you're doing, so when you, I'm bringing you back to your forest therapy guide.

Bronwyn Painter [00:22:02]:
Yeah.

Melissa LaPointe [00:22:03]:
Were you— because the work that I know in terms of what you're doing is related to OTs. So was there a point where you were working or bringing this work directly to clients?

Bronwyn Painter [00:22:15]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I do, I sometimes do that still now. So originally I did my forest therapy training and I thought I would have a business providing forest therapy services, like forest therapy experiences to anyone and everyone because everyone needs nature and how could people not want to, you know, pay me to do that. And that was my first adventure into, gosh, is this a business or is this a hobby? And, um, I had no idea. I had absolutely no idea. And so I, you know, I sort of put out some forest therapy events. I had a few people come.

Bronwyn Painter [00:22:52]:
Um, there was no way I was ever going to make that a viable, a financially viable business. And, um, I didn't really know what else to do. So I sort of just kept doing that. because I loved it. Um, and then I started, oh, I was connected with a business coach who uses video for marketing. And I was like, oh, that sounds fun. I'd like to make videos about nature. And so I started doing that.

Bronwyn Painter [00:23:20]:
I started putting out content, um, about nature and OT and wellbeing. And I started having OTs contact me and ask me how I had started working with nature. And I had a conversation with my business coach one day about my videos. And he actually said to me, oh, I know what you can do. You should work with OTs. You could help other OTs learn to work with nature. And the penny dropped for me. And I mean, prior to that, I had this idea that I wanted to do a master's and do research and publish something.

Bronwyn Painter [00:23:54]:
about nature and OT, and I felt like that was a way to bring my learning to the profession. And then I just couldn't fit that in with work and also the cost of doing that. And so then when there was this conversation about, well, maybe I could work with other OTs and help them understand the evidence about nature and different ways to use it in their practice, maybe that's a better way for me to give back to the profession and share this knowledge that I, you know, had developed. And so then I just completely shifted what I was doing from offering sort of public forest therapy to, you know, niching down and realizing that actually OTs are some of the people I love the most in the world. And I love nothing more than talking with them about nature and how to work with nature in, you know, in every setting. So I still do some forest therapy. I do sort of corporate events. I've done some work recently that was paid for by our National Parks and Wildlife Service.

Bronwyn Painter [00:24:58]:
I've done some filming with them, made a film of forest therapy. So, I still like to keep my hand in and provide those experiences. And honestly, it just lights me up seeing that, just seeing how people respond to that. So, Yeah, I still do that, but I work with OTs predominantly.

Melissa LaPointe [00:25:22]:
Okay, so let's dive into that a little bit more. Tell me about how exactly are you working with OTs? What type of— is it a program? Is it a course? Do you do mentoring? So let's unpackage that a little more.

Bronwyn Painter [00:25:39]:
Yeah, so I, I provide an online group coaching program, which I have just in the last 2 weeks kind of completely restructured and rewritten and reorganized the content because as I've gone along, I've learned so much from the OTs I've worked with as well. So, so I have a coaching program where I have online content and group video calls and a really connected Facebook community. for our program and then also a Facebook group for any nature-loving OT to join as well. And so I've kind of decided that my strength is in connection and connecting people with each other, connecting OTs with each other, and connecting people with their passion, their reason why nature is important to them, connecting people with a love for OT. So I've certainly worked with OTs who have been on the brink of giving up being an OT, or also I've worked with OTs who are really recent grads, graduates, and have had that experience of feeling like there's so many possibilities when you study and learn about occupational therapy, and then when you sort of get out into your first job in the first couple of years, all of a sudden things get quite constrained and restricted by the systems that we work in. And so I've worked with some, you know, early career OTs to just widen up their, you know, broaden their thinking about what actually is possible. And that's been really exciting too. So yeah, so I work with OTs who I talk to every week.

Bronwyn Painter [00:27:23]:
We work through a process and a, you know, what I'm calling the Nature OT method to develop a nature focus in their service or develop, you know, develop a business idea. And I've worked with OTs from 10 countries and I am constantly amazed at how fabulous the things that unite us are. I had an OT from Argentina in my last program and an OT from Uganda and we're all OTs, you know, we all still believe the same things about the power of occupation for supporting wellbeing. And, you know, we still think in a really similar way. So I guess that's just the power of the kind of structure of regulating OT education around the world. But it's— I have just loved working with OTs from all these different countries and seeing what they produce. seeing them nurture their own ideas, to test things, to start to do different things with their clients, you know, in some cases develop like full-blown programs or businesses and launch them. And, you know, be able to come back and share, share all of that with us.

Bronwyn Painter [00:28:39]:
So, yeah, it's that whole ripple effect I think is just, I just love it so much, helping other OTs succeed with nature.

Melissa LaPointe [00:28:49]:
Well, and again, coming back to encouraging OTs to engage with the big issues, you know, similar to how we started this conversation when you were talking about that. For a lot of OTs, myself included, you know, it's climbing a mountain. And when you have these really big ideas about how to engage with these really big issues, that can take generations. You know, this isn't just our lifetime that we're now talking about. It can be intimidating, it can be overwhelming, and there's that imposter syndrome that creeps up. Who am I? Who am I to tackle such a big issue in my community, in my region, in my country, for the planet? Who am I to take on something like that? But when you become part of a community of OTs who are doing that work, It all changes, doesn't it?

Bronwyn Painter [00:29:47]:
It does. And for me, this is, um, it's been the OT-ness of it all that I have loved the most. Um, and I worked with an OT 12 months ago. So this time 12 months ago in Australia was when we had absolutely horrific bushfires through, you know, the whole east, well, and the west and the center, actually really everywhere in Australia. We had the most awful bushfires. And one of the OTs who was in my program was living in this bushfire area. And during the program, she was evacuated 3 times. And she still came to our group calls from wherever she was.

Bronwyn Painter [00:30:24]:
And it would be like, oh my gosh, are you okay? Where are you? And, you know, we had lots of conversations about the big issues of climate change and living sustainably. And how any of us as individuals can possibly have any impact on those, you know, massive global challenges. During the program, she joined a climate action group and she engaged in some protesting. And only a couple of months ago now, she shared with us a video that was made featuring her about climate change protesting and action, and she commented about how doing the program with me had highlighted to her how protest could be a meaningful occupation for her, and that became a way that she engaged in feeling like she, she could do something that made a difference in what is a massive, you know, global problem, obviously climate change. And how she does it as an OT, you know, that for her it's meaningful. It's about— there's, there's so much evidence about how climate change is a health issue and, you know, potentially the biggest health issue that we have, notwithstanding, you know, a global pandemic. But, you know, climate change continues to impact and will continue to impact. And the World Federation of OT have a beautiful position statement.

Bronwyn Painter [00:31:55]:
that talks about changes to the climate. And I would say from my learning that climate change is irrefutably caused by human activity. And so it's an occupational issue. And this is how Woolford frames it. The changes to our planet and our climate have been caused by human occupation, by the way that humans have lived on the Earth, the way we've used the Earth's resources, the way we've created industry, the way we grow our food, you know, in an industrial agricultural way. So human occupation is actually the cause of climate change. And so therefore, the solution has to be occupational. And, you know, if we as a profession specialize in occupation, then I'm so passionate that we can be part of the solution.

Bronwyn Painter [00:32:45]:
And, you know, it is about the everyday actions that people take. It is about the things, you know, when we're working with clients, even individually about you know, the choices they make in their everyday lives about how they live. You know, the actions that we take as a therapist in something like prescribing equipment, you know, I think as OTs, we would all say that there is an enormous amount of, you know, household equipment from shower chairs to, you know, whatever, all those devices that OTs recommend that never gets used and was never going to be used. And so, you know, there's really simple ways that we can be more sustainable and aware of the impact that we make on the planet in the work that we do. I read a really, really fascinating article in the Journal of Occupational Science that talks about a concept that they call ecopations. So, we have occupations that are either good for the planet or not good for the planet. And so, they're either sustainable or not sustainable. And as OTs, when we're working with people around occupation, If we can influence them to engage in more sustainable occupations for the planet, then, you know, we create an impact in that way that it becomes this whole cyclical thing that the healthier the climate is, the healthier people are.

Bronwyn Painter [00:34:06]:
I'm so passionate about so many ways OTs can work on the big issues. I think urban design is something else that I'm really passionate about. There's lots of evidence about the benefits of green space and quality green space in urban environments. I had someone randomly contact me on Facebook. It was a community action group who were advocating to have an area of biodiversity preserved in an urban area, and they asked me if I could help them with evidence about why that was important for their submission to the local council. And they sought me out because I could speak to the evidence and You know, I think that's one of our strengths as OTs, that we can understand the science, but we also understand the humanity of it all. And, you know, another really big shift that's happened for me is learning to— well, not learning, but actually being genuinely more open to different perspectives of understanding what it is to be human. So I went through probably 6 months of turmoil getting comfortable with letting go of the fact that not everything needed to have empirical Western science evidence, you know, that there's all this wisdom and cultural perspectives and different ways of knowing the human experience and what keeps us well, that, you know, just being open to different perspectives.

Melissa LaPointe [00:35:32]:
It's all connected, isn't it?

Bronwyn Painter [00:35:34]:
Yeah, it is, it is.

Melissa LaPointe [00:35:37]:
Yeah, like so many different ways to come at it, but at the end of the day, it's It's all connected. And again, you know, I think that's another strength for, I don't wanna say OTs in general, but I would say the majority of OTs, taking all these big ideas and all these different ways of looking at things and all these different therapeutic approaches and modalities and looking at the bigger issues, but also really bringing it back down to the clients in front of us and connecting the dots. That's what I hear as the underlying tone in all the different ways that you're bringing this work into the world, is that it's all connected.

Bronwyn Painter [00:36:19]:
I think it's about, for me, understanding what it is that creates health and wellbeing for people and what supports people to flourish. Not just— I have this whole perspective about working in wellbeing as opposed to working in the health system or the illness system. It's one thing to be working kind of almost retrospectively, or I don't know what the right word is, but working against something negative. So, we're trying to support a client who has challenges or barriers or, you know, illness, disease, disability to become well. But I guess the kind of OT work that really lights me up is helping people actually get to a place of flourishing and wellbeing, which can exist in the context of illness, injury, and disability. it's a forward thinking and it's more than the absence of illness. It's about how do people reach their potential and what is it that actually helps them get there. I've done lots of reading from Anne Wilcock.

Bronwyn Painter [00:37:23]:
And like, I had the great fortune of studying at the University of South Australia when Anne was the head of the OT school. And of course, as a young OT student, I had no idea about her thinking or her brilliance. And I've really gone back to her writing in the last few years. But I love something she says, which is about how as OTs we can work with the causes of wellbeing. So we can work in a really positive way with individuals or communities or organisations to, you know, to get them to a better place from wherever they are. You know, that's kind of my passion about how nature I love that.

Melissa LaPointe [00:38:05]:
Bronwyn, I'm going to circle back to different concepts of health and wellbeing, but I want to focus a little bit more on you as an individual because this is something you've been doing on the side of full-time work.

Bronwyn Painter [00:38:22]:
So— Technically, I work 4 days a week.

Melissa LaPointe [00:38:25]:
Okay. So technically 4 days a week. So that gives you a little bit of wiggle room, but it's not just Taking on— so you have your coaching program, you have all the different work you're doing in terms of research, but you're also an entrepreneur. And, you know, that's something that we, that we really need to lean into as well. You have a successful online business, and where do you find the time? So as we talk about health and well-being, did you clone yourself? How, you know, let's—

Bronwyn Painter [00:39:01]:
Lisa, this is like— Where I find the time, what I've learned is that it's not about work-life balance, right? Like, I'm really actually quite triggered by that term, to be honest, because it's all life for me. And I think about all the things I do in terms of what gives me energy and what sucks energy from me. And so doing this work gives me so much energy. So much energy to the point that I really have trouble switching off from it because I just love it so much. And I do have to kind of contain it. I don't get a lot of sleep. And one of my goals for 2021 is to be less tired. But for example, when I have a group call with my group of OTs, I am so lit up by that.

Bronwyn Painter [00:39:50]:
And Just, you know, that is what gives me joy. And so I managed to do all those things because it fills me with joy. And also I have a very understanding husband and adult children. But yeah, I don't know. I guess I've really shifted my life in the last kind of 3 or 4 years to understand what it is that makes, makes me happy and to choose to do those things.

Melissa LaPointe [00:40:18]:
Mm-hmm.

Bronwyn Painter [00:40:19]:
But amidst all my busyness, I do absolutely have one sacred day a week, at least one day where I spend the day at our property on our land. So we, amidst all of this passion for nature, we purchased a private national park sanctuary 2 years ago. So we have this amazing, beautiful land and I spend at least a whole day and hopefully one night on our land. And that is what gives— that's what renews me and refreshes me and keeps me grounded and connected and, you know, fills me up every week. So I'm absolutely, you know, living what I teach from that perspective.

Melissa LaPointe [00:41:02]:
And there's something to be said about leveraging our time, leveraging our offers, and getting into a state of flow with our work. So I know, you know, I can relate to, again, being on calls with your people and getting off those calls and feeling like you've just had an infusion of vitamins, you know, where—

Bronwyn Painter [00:41:28]:
Yeah.

Melissa LaPointe [00:41:29]:
And I've had people, so I've experienced health challenges, you know, as we all have, and It irks me when one of the first things people say is, oh, you know, in— so I had people in another business program comment about, oh, you need to take time off or you should stop doing that so you could focus on your health. And it's like, but this is part of what makes me healthy.

Bronwyn Painter [00:41:55]:
Yeah.

Melissa LaPointe [00:41:55]:
This is what part, you know, this is what's fueling my wellbeing. And sure, we could talk about being a workaholic and, you know, and I've acknowledged that in the past, I can certainly turn to it work to numb some emotions around what's going on. But where I am now, and I feel like as I go through my 40s, I'm leaning into that all the time a little bit more and recognizing, you know, again, this— what is this concept of work-life balance?

Bronwyn Painter [00:42:24]:
Mm-hmm.

Melissa LaPointe [00:42:24]:
And instead, we invite different ways of being into who we are as professionals, who we are as entrepreneurs, who we are as community leaders. And these are all different pieces of the puzzle that, that again light me up. And, you know, of course, yes, we have to— I say we have to find balance, but what is this concept of balance?

Bronwyn Painter [00:42:48]:
Oh, I read something only yesterday about the concept of balance in nature and about the spring and the autumn equinox being the only time that daylight is in balance. So they're the days where, you know, day and night are exactly equal. And this whole concept that there are only 2 days of this, you know, concept of balance in nature. And, you know, I'm going to reference Janelle Gollum here because I just listened to your podcast episode with her. But I love this concept that she talks about, about people are not machines. You know, we have cycles and rhythms and our energy goes up and down and it should. And so it's, It's about, I think it's about just being in tune with our energy and, um, you know, what is it that, that works for us? I, I'm going to share, like I started doing this nature work when our youngest son was really unwell in hospital with sudden onset liver failure. And he was 17 and a half and he went from being what seemed to be perfectly healthy to like within 2 weeks we were having a conversation with a doctor about would he require a liver transplant.

Melissa LaPointe [00:44:06]:
Wow.

Bronwyn Painter [00:44:06]:
And he didn't. And I, but like, how does that even happen? And I had just started coaching with my spiritual coach at the time. And we had really, really profound conversations with our son about what it was that he was choosing to live for. And, you know, this is the thing about why I do this work, because that experience with him and he, he has recovered fully. And it was, you know, just an unusual autoimmune thing. But that experience with me, he was so clear about what he was choosing to live for. And his recovery has been amazing. And through that, I, that was what really tipped me into questioning what was I living for? You know, what was my purpose and wanting to search for something different.

Bronwyn Painter [00:44:58]:
And so, you know, I, and I had my own experience with life-threatening illness when I was 28 and he was a baby. You know, I feel like my son and I have shared these experiences and, and finally through his experience, I've learned to take some purpose from my experience. And so I'm in a place now where I, I know what I'm living for. You know, I have found something that brings me so much joy, and it's because I get to work with other OTs and to have this ripple effect of helping them incorporate nature into their work and pass that on to all their clients. And I can just see, you know, this kind of growing exponential impact from that. And because I'm so passionate about nature, I don't I don't have any concerns that that's not like just the most pure, beautiful way that we can work as OTs. And so that's how I do all the things that I do because that's the kind of, you know, reason. That's my reason why, you know, I talk about a Japanese concept, ikigai, in my program, which is about, you know, the reason you get up in the morning.

Melissa LaPointe [00:46:11]:
Mm-hmm.

Bronwyn Painter [00:46:12]:
One of the OTs who did my program has just named her business Icky Guy OT.

Melissa LaPointe [00:46:16]:
Oh, that's fabulous.

Bronwyn Painter [00:46:18]:
Yeah. So that's how and why I do this work. But I am also getting help because I've realized this is like from an entrepreneurial perspective. Another way I can, you know, support people to join me in this kind of crusade, if you like, is by bringing other people into my business. And so, um, I am getting help because That also brings me joy now. So, you know, I look forward to having someone else on board and making my life easier. Well, actually just giving me more time to do the things I love the most.

Melissa LaPointe [00:46:51]:
Yeah. Well, and having a bigger impact.

Bronwyn Painter [00:46:54]:
Yeah.

Melissa LaPointe [00:46:55]:
Yeah. So Bronwyn, as we start to wrap this up, because I know at the time of this recording throughout this year, there are certainly more and more OTs who some are being forced to work online, But some are certainly using this as an opportunity to be creative and working online. So what would you say, what is one thing you love about working in the online space? And what is one challenge that you've experienced working in the online space?

Bronwyn Painter [00:47:25]:
The thing that I love the most is the ability to connect with OTs around the planet. Absolutely love that so much. I've become expert at managing time zones. And yeah, just that ability to connect people who think the same, care about the same things, are exploring the same opportunities from all around the planet. Like, I just find that so amazing. So that's a massive bonus of working online. Challenges of working online. I would say, I would say just being focused and focus is my word of the year.

Bronwyn Painter [00:48:06]:
Being focused because there are so many things that we can do. There are so many opportunities. And I'm not really sure how to frame this, but, you know, I think I do my best work when I'm clear about what I'm doing and who I'm doing it with and what it is that I'm helping them to do. And, you know, try not to be too distracted by all the other things I could be doing.

Melissa LaPointe [00:48:29]:
That's so true in terms of keeping our blinders on. When we're in the online space, it's a lot harder because you're being bombarded by so many different things. And when you're on there with the intention of serving your people or with the intention of spreading your message, it's really hard to not get caught up in everything else that's happening. It's hard to not see that because it is part of your business.

Bronwyn Painter [00:48:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. And also, I would say also the other thing, the other real challenge is comparison. and looking at what other people are doing. Because I guess working online as a kind of a— online as a solo entrepreneur is quite lonely. And I've found that when I start kind of comparing myself to other things or other ways of delivering services, that it just makes me feel less confident. And so that's where I have loved being part of a community of OTs in your program. To actually just have that reality check and to help me connect with my OT-ness and not get pulled into other ways of, you know, things like marketing or, well, mostly marketing, to be honest, to be able to do that in a way that feels that it has integrity as an OT, because there's so many different ways to do that in the online space, but I want to do it with integrity and true to my values.

Melissa LaPointe [00:49:55]:
I hear you, I hear you. And yes, it certainly helps being part of a community that can support one another to be doing that.

Bronwyn Painter [00:50:03]:
Yeah, yeah.

Melissa LaPointe [00:50:05]:
So speaking of community, let's talk about— so as we wrap this up, where can people find you? Because I know one of the ways you have a free community for OTs who are interested in nature-based therapy, who are interested in bringing nature into their practice in some context. Can you tell us a little bit more about how they find that group, what the name is, and what they might get out of being a member of that group?

Bronwyn Painter [00:50:33]:
I do, and I'm so excited by how many OTs there are who are passionate about nature. And I would say also that I am also really committed to helping OTs incorporate more nature into their lives to support, you know, to support their well-being. So it's not just about doing client work, it's about how we can partner with nature in our own lives. Because, you know, I think life is perhaps more challenging than it's ever been, and we can all benefit from connecting with nature. So my Facebook group— Facebook is pretty much where I exist. I kind of feel happy to say I don't have a website. I still don't have a website as an entrepreneur. So my Facebook group that any nature-loving OT can join is called Nature OTs Connect and Grow.

Bronwyn Painter [00:51:23]:
And my coaching program is called Connect with Nature. And you can, you, if you join the Facebook group, you'll hear about the program. I have a business Facebook page called Flourish Nature-Based OT. And my coaching program this year in 2021 is going to be available on an ongoing basis. So it's available to join at any time. I'm actually relaunching it today. And, you know, I'm so excited to have OTs join me at a time that suits them across the year and work with me for however long it suits them, you know, to kind of come in and out of the program. And what I've learned about the program that I deliver is that the value that people— the thing that people get the most value out of is actually connecting with a group of like-minded OTs in our coaching calls.

Bronwyn Painter [00:52:22]:
You know, that's, that's kind of my main focus this year is to do 2 coaching calls a week and talk with and learn from and share with as many OTs in different parts of the world as I can and help us all have more nature in our lives.

Melissa LaPointe [00:52:38]:
So great and such important work. And I love how, as you had mentioned, this community, you know, so many different countries, yet so many similarities and that we can be on opposite sides of the planet, such as you and I are right now, and yet still use technology to connect and use technology to educate and inspire each other in ways to disconnect and get back into nature.

Bronwyn Painter [00:53:05]:
Yes, thank you.

Melissa LaPointe [00:53:08]:
Bronwyn, thank you so much for your time. And yes, I will link all of these, all of the different ways to connect with you and your programs in our show notes.

Bronwyn Painter [00:53:18]:
Thanks. See you in Nitro.

Melissa LaPointe [00:53:20]:
Yeah.

Bronwyn Painter [00:53:21]:
Okay.

Melissa LaPointe [00:53:21]:
We'll talk to you soon, Bronwyn. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of the OTs Gone Rogue podcast, where we're all about making deeper connections by leaning into the difficult conversations. Make sure you're subscribed if you haven't already, because we've got some more awesome episodes coming your way. Take care, and we'll see you next week.