219. "Build Your Referral Pipeline" with Stacey Brown Randall

Dawn welcomes back Stacy Brown-Randall (previously featured in 2022 on “Generating Referrals Without Asking”) to discuss her updated work on referrals, including her second book, The Referable Client Experience. Stacy explains that referrals exist within a business “ecosystem” and outlines three foundational referral plans: generating more referrals from people who already refer you (covered in her first book), creating a referable client experience that bridges great work to referrals during the engagement (covered in her second book), and cultivating “potential referral sources” who have never referred you. She distinguishes referrals from word-of-mouth buzz, introductions, and warm leads, and argues referrals are a separate business-development leg from marketing and prospecting, driven by relationship-based trust, desire, and opportunity. She notes referrals can be built virtually and cites common stats such as ~70% close rates and 80%+ preference for recommendations in buying decisions.

Who is Stacey Brown Randall, and to whom does she serve? 00:43

Referral Ecosystem Overview (01:09)

Three Referral Plans (03:22)

What Counts as Referral (06:16)

Referrals vs Marketing (12:26)

Desire Opportunity Trust (16:43)

Virtual Referral Relationships (22:56)

Timeline ROI Expectations (25:39)

Referral Stats Close Rates (29:62)

Books Links Farewell (32:15)

Stacey Brown Randall’s Information:

Website: https://staceybrownrandall.com/articles/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceybrandall/

Generating Business Referrals without Asking: https://generatingbusinessreferrals.com/

New Book: https://referableclientexperience.com/

Transcript

INTRO: 0:03

Welcome to Business Mastery with forty five minute dose of expert a positive impact on your Let's get started.

Dawn Kennedy: 0:18

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Business Mastery Podcast. I am so excited to bring back on somebody who had an amazing episode when we were still called the Profit Accelerator Podcast back in twenty twenty two, episode seventy two on generating referrals without asking. And we're bringing back Stacy. She's got new books, new topic, I'm so excited to have you back. Yeah.

Stacey Brown Randall: 0:47

I'm excited to be back.

Dawn Kennedy: 0:49

Yeah. This time on video. So if you go back and you look going to get to hear. But now they can see and hear So can you tell everyone who you

Stacey Brown Randall: 0:59

Yeah, it's I think it's exciting for everyone else to be able to watch the videos, but it means that you and I have to get ready. Yeah. There's that part. Yes. Yeah. So you know what? I'm still talking about there's so much more to it that I always tell my clients, within your business. It is not. Referrals are a nail and the you need is a hammer. That there are so many places you can uncover them and you can So like you mentioned, I do have It actually falls on a different part of the ecosystem within referrals. But I've been doing my business now for almost thirteen years, teaching small business owners how to generate referrals without asking, without manipulating, without incentivizing, and not feeling like you have to be gimmicky, promotional, or network all the time. You actually can build a business that's based on the And from that, and the research actually put in place in your generate referrals in a way good and work.

Dawn Kennedy: 2:09

I love that. So the first book was a but things must have evolved and consumers and B2B sales in Right. There's been some change in another ecosystem you leaned But how did you come up with the second topic on this very important topic?

Stacey Brown Randall: 2:36

Yeah. So, you know, what's interesting about referrals is that people talk about the difference between the changing nature of whether it's the online marketing world or it is the social media world, or if it's the algorithms changing and there's constant updates, constant changing CEOs, changing AI, it's like changing everything. There's all these changes happening, and I happen to operate in a space where referrals are based on relationships. And so that's evergreen. And there are just parts of a relationship that don't actually ever change. What people underestimate when it comes to referrals is the fact that sometimes it's the idea of like just being a good human, right? It's like today's age. It's like, we just need to be than we needed to be reminded of But when you look at my two books, so the way I always like for folks to think about referrals is when people are like, hey, I need more referrals. I'm like, okay, wait, let's getting referrals from. And there's actually three And these are what we call the three foundational plans that I think every business should have in place. And so the first one is the taking care of them, right? And using the right language and referrals from them. And that's what my first book, Without asking is based on. And that's what we mostly talked episode with you. But there's a second group of referrals from, and that is And so within the client building out a referable client referral hot zones and right you can actually bridge the gap actually receiving referrals experience with you. And so that's what my second Experience, is about, because that you could cultivate Some people may be in industries or defense attorney, and they on the client experience piece. But even my clients that are in companies, they still do, but it And then the third group that you should be focused on generating referrals from is what we call potential referral sources. Those are people that you have identified by name, could be clients, but also they're probably centers of influence, right? People who come across your regularity and know what you do. So they actually know who to And but that's a third group of referred to you. They maybe never even thought of And then how do you cultivate to refer to you and they do it So those are the three groups that I always tell business owners. You've got to have a plan in place to get more referrals from your existing referral sources, to make sure you're leveraging your client experience and being referable and bridging the gap to referrals. Because doing great work is not of referrals, but wish it were And then you need to have a plan in place for how you identify people. You want to refer you and then Cultivate those folks in a way that they will ultimately refer you. And we do all of that without without being gimmicky and like all we do is network. So we're never forgotten. So those are the three basic I have two books out, so they're based on two of those three plans. If I write a third book, it'll potential referral sources. But it's too hard to talk about just finished one.

Dawn Kennedy: 6:13

No, I get that one hundred So let's just make sure we're really clean and clear for anybody listening. If this is the first time you've heard Stacy, because you didn't follow me in twenty twenty two, you're forgiven. And we're grateful for you to be Right? Let's just talk about what we mean by referral, because it might actually mean different things to different people depending on the business that they're in. So it's, oh, word of mouth, go And then they go try the Is that the same type of referral you're talking about that needs to be cultivated, or is there something else we need to consider when we use the word referral?

Stacey Brown Randall: 6:47

Yeah. So I'm very clear on how and that we understand that a of mouth buzz. It is different from an from a warm lead. And those are four different types of ways that prospects can show up. But you need to be really clear on what you're receiving, because that teaches you and tells you like how to ultimately respond. And that's very important. So with a referral, what we're looking at is the two part of that definition is one, you're being personally connected by someone else, which we call the referral source. Some people call them referral source knows someone who has a personally connect them to you. The second part of that they are the prospect. They know they have a problem. That's why they're willing to be That's why they're willing to And they bring along that trust they have in the referral source, and it's transferred to you. Very different from word of Hey, I talked to Don. She's amazing. She can solve all your problems. You should definitely give her a And then they come and they tell name and number. They're going to follow up. It feels like a referral. It's really close to being a connection piece that puts you who you're following up with and you're following up. I teach my clients that word of warm leads aren't bad know what's arriving. You need to know why it's not a understand how to flip that into So it is that definition is very and the need identified in the

Dawn Kennedy: 8:29

Yeah. That's critical to, to, to separate out that we're being very clear. But also I do think a lot of us, me included, would say if somebody makes an introduction and they get on a call or they want to find out more, but even if it didn't lead to business, let's just say for whatever reason, because they didn't have that problem. I think that is something that we would consider a referral anyway. Oh, they just we didn't do it's, oh, I passed over your I do think we consider those to And that missing piece about the awareness of the problem that could be solved on the other end. So that requires, I think, first of all, very clear understanding of what it is that you do, because I'm wondering also on the referral side, if you were to ask, let's go back to your attorney example. I'm a defense attorney or I'm a this attorney or I'm a that attorney. That's nice. And people generally kind of But how many times have you started even from the business owner? So what do you do? What are you going to be How are people able to answer Or is it even clear when they

Stacey Brown Randall: 9:36

Yeah. Most folks that I work industries and I work with folks They know how to answer that Sometimes if they're newer in something that's maybe newer on So like I had a couple of folks that I'm working with that are really, it's like growing now in terms of women hitting a certain age in a certain life stage and having actually working with a dietitian or nutritionist or folks that are helping them as they make those hormonal changes that are happening in their lives. There's actually like coaches. It's like this boutique industry that's bubbled up what feels like overnight. It probably isn't. And so for them, sometimes there's a little bit like, do you know how to answer the question of like the what you do? Most of the clients I work with, they know how to answer that question. And so when they're in networking opportunities or when they're in conversations with folks, they'll be able to answer that question. But most folks don't ever ask thinking in their heads. Now let me think how I can refer Right. What we're thinking about. Let's be honest as ourselves and all the fifty thousand things we have in our to do list, personal and professional, for our business and for our personal lives. And so I always tell folks, do, and you do need to be able And when someone says, how can I I want you to be able to answer But what I know the science says told how to help you before And nine times out of ten, they're not going to actually ask you how they can help you or actually stick with it, because they're just going to get busy when they get back to their lives. And so the system that we put in folks, it has to look different. It's focused on some science pieces of understanding, like behavioral economics and what's going on in the brain of the referral source and of course, the psychology of trust, but also the dynamics of social networks. Like it pulls on a number of research type of framework for But I want to go back to what because here's the thing, word to be a referral is there's no What it's missing to be a referral is there's no need Identified when the introduction is made, you're being connected, right? But there's no need identified. So in that moment, you don't AM I the prospect? Are they the prospect? AM I going to get on this call Or am I supposed to be prepared to pitch them because it's just an introduction and there's nothing wrong with introductions for the sake of being an introduction. But what I tell my clients is sometimes there's referrals hiding in there and you don't know it. And so you show up for just, hey, let's get to know each other. But in fact, this person you don't know it. You don't know that there's a Maybe you'll uncover it in that Maybe you won't. And so those are why we want to terms are and what's missing. So we know how to respond.

Dawn Kennedy: 12:24

So over the last couple of the more AI and the marketing about, if you're going into your you tell them what the pain You point and you press and you this is the problem I solve. This is the problem I solve. Is that always translatable to says I solve these problems, but this human piece of it that that little different if somebody Yeah.

Stacey Brown Randall: 13:02

That's because referrals and They're like separate legs of the stool in terms of your business development. So if you think about your sales development strategy, you're would call our prospecting Maybe you're hopefully you're not cold calling, but people still do that in this day and age. So you're cold calling or cold emailing, or maybe you're spamming people on LinkedIn, right? Maybe we're not going.

Dawn Kennedy: 13:27

To bring it up. I'm glad you did.

Stacey Brown Randall: 13:29

Yeah, maybe you're doing seven Maybe you're doing a bunch of networking groups and leads groups and you're attending association meetings. So there's things that you're nature, and then there's doing that are marketing in media, maybe you run ads, right? Maybe you sponsor events. And so there's activities that prospecting and marketing. And what people try to do is they try to take referrals and they try to fit them as a part of marketing and they call it referral marketing, which is not a thing. Or they try to take referrals and they put it into process, into prospecting. And that's where you get the referrals fit in prospecting. That's when they tell you, you got to get to the pain as fast as possible. So you've got to ask for referrals or incentivize offer to pay for those referrals, right? Or go to networking events all the time so you can never be forgotten. The advice and the tactics for the expert believes where And so if the person you're referrals are part of to do things that will get you, prospecting, as quick as quickly Here's the issue though. Prospecting is built, the messaging of it, the activities of it, the what you do, your mentality that you take going into prospecting is because your goal is to show up to the seven million cups of coffee and hope that you're talking to a prospect. Hope that you're talking to to give you money to solve it. It's the same thing with When you do marketing, you're You're, you're putting out that, Maybe you're doing a speaking And so in the marketing realm, messaging that's trying to get So you're talking about pain. You're talking about how you can You're talking about what's solving the problem. All the messaging of prospecting and marketing is focused on getting the prospect's attention. And this is why referrals don't fit in prospecting and marketing. They are the third leg to your The third leg. A separate leg is referrals because the end user, so to speak right, is the prospect is the end user of prospecting and marketing. The end user of your referral The people you're maintaining a between you and the prospect. So all the messaging is You're not selling, you're not You're trying to make it. So the fact that referral source ultimately be able to refer you So your prospecting, your They don't ever go away, but you them, and you have to look at in place that allow you to the end user, which are referral who the prospects are, that they So your whole dynamic, the Everything changes when you look prospecting and marketing.

Dawn Kennedy: 16:36

I think that's very important separated that out. So you made a statement earlier about there's a question that happens on the referral side that maybe isn't a question that gets asked, as you just said, in marketing or prospecting, that there has to be a question developed. Can we dig a little bit into where that question starts to develop and why referrals are so different?

Stacey Brown Randall: 17:03

Yeah. So I think from the that you're building with your is never what do you do? And who can I refer to you? The question actually starts at Do I like you? It's much and that's not a question they're going to ask you. I wonder if I like you, Don. No one's verbally going to be Right. They're thinking about it though They're assessing it because you need two things for referrals to happen. You need desire and opportunity, And the one that you control is Which means that when you have someone who has a problem with referrals, the relationship that we have is there so that you would only think to refer them to me, not to anybody else who operates in the space of referrals. Right. And that's going to be based on if we have a relationship or not, right. If we haven't talked in not going to remember who I am possibly in some cases, even And so that's the reality that you control the desire that over your competitors. What you don't control is the opportunity they're going to come across. So when someone's making the decision that they're going to refer to you, they don't really think about it until there's an opportunity. And when the opportunity will always win as to who gets And that's how you have to think This is about building This is about staying top of thing as keeping in touch. And this is about making sure the support and the help that particularly for people who are I see people leave so much opportunity on the table by not realizing that people who have referred you are more likely to refer you again before you worry about cultivating a brand new person. And people leave so much on the thinking about how do I just that person who has referred me about the fact that I'm thankful help, take care of my business not make it about anything else. Not make it about how smart I Not make it about how many Not make it about how many cases I've closed or how many, how much, how many dollars my clients have made in terms of revenue realized. It's not about the external it's about that person deciding, Yes, I trust Stacey. And when that opportunity going to refer to.

Dawn Kennedy: 19:30

All right. So your very first question in you is, do I like this person? Does that start from the Does that start with the Are we finding because you you find your people, right? You're going to find your people And I, I heard this during the you build your own economy is You're going to find your group your own economy. That was a huge thing online for I haven't heard it in a while, for a while. Is that where that starts? Is this where because this is. I heard it before because you ago, but I don't know if the thinking, oh, that very first can fit together, not whether or the expertise to do what it is. I'm out here marketing.

Stacey Brown Randall: 20:32

Yeah. So here's the thing. I think it's a little crazy. And I think when I say to some people are like, wait, is that right? And then you think about it and you're like, okay, think about anybody that you refer to now, right? Anybody that you refer to now, them on some level to do a good makes you remember to actually It's because they've stayed top relationship with you. Yes, there's a baseline that person does a good job, right? And you can lose that trust But when you've received that They focus on the big thing is this idea that there's this person trusts me, and that's why And then we get convoluted with And people assume that trust means it's because they know how good you are at what you do, right? They understand the problems They understand the case studies things about what you do and all And people feel like no one can everything about what I do and But what the science shows is that that psychology trust is actually based more on the relationship that person has with you. And then, yes, it is important that they know what you do, right? It is important that someone to me that is looking for a CPA, you want me? I don't even do my own CPA in I outsource that stuff. Like I teach people about So it is important that likability factor is important is not like, I gotta we're buds or we're gonna go grab a beer of a year. It's not like that likability you're showing up in a way that true, and that allows someone build on the likeability factor. And I think that's the piece Like when I teach my clients the So you know why we do it, right? And I teach you the what we do what we say, why we're doing it. Like there is a process behind And it's all based on protecting our referral source.

Dawn Kennedy: 22:53

Okay. So these relationships, And to the third bucket, if you're an accountant and somebody has a tax issue, you might refer them to an E a that you know. Right. An enrolled agent for the IRS But not all of these referrals with your work. So the relationships they can people in person. Like I have referred people that I've never actually met in person. I think it's important when we about these things that to let necessarily mean you have to go dry cleaners or us or whatever to do these things. Can we talk a little bit about So maybe we can have some awareness of what we are actually doing, that we might be completely dismissing these potential referral sources without even knowing it, because we're like, I didn't go to that thing online. It's just as powerful, right? Yes.

Stacey Brown Randall: 23:49

I have lots of clients that referral sources in person. That's a little bit of my world, I always tell my clients who networking and still can develop I'm like, you have no idea how is something about being in that solidifying of the I relationship move along faster It's like I'm sitting across the But my I have clients in fourteen fifteen we just brought on Singapore. I've got clients in fifteen different countries around the world. And how those people find me, And practice what I preach. A large majority of that's going And so I'm never going to have a from the people who refer to me. But maintaining those in person or they are virtual, And I think in twenty twenty six, most people recognize that because there's as many networking opportunities online as there are in person, and maybe more so in, in online nowadays. And I think that's something for That's something for folks to remember is that it doesn't matter if you're trying to meet people to cultivate them into referral sources. So we're in that third bucket, The potential referral sources, can start with people you shortcuts some of the work strangers you don't know. But understanding the idea behind, hey, it can still be done virtually. It doesn't have to be done in person, but understanding how you're going to develop those relationships, clearly they will look a little bit different because you're not grabbing a cup of coffee, you're doing it virtually right. You're doing it online, but it's

Dawn Kennedy: 25:29

Yes. Fantastic. Because I think it's important to the listener that I don't do local business or whatever. Will this work for me? So the last piece I really want to dive into is managing those expectations, right? So they're going to get your But the idea is this is not an Like you were like this I think I know which area of And those are women entering I've been seeing more of it too. I don't know if it's because they look at my social and they look at my face and they go, yeah, she's definitely a grandma.

Stacey Brown Randall: 26:02

Yeah, they say the same thing to They're like, oh, she's going. She's headed, here we go.

Dawn Kennedy: 26:06

Oh, and she's there. She's been on this app for how Oh yeah, she's definitely right. But the idea is the expectation Doing these things. This is not going to be as fast as throwing money at Google ads or throwing money on Facebook ads. But the return on investment, if higher than spray and pray, as I Like you just, I'm going to a B I'm going to put X amount to So I do want to make sure to in we're getting back to wanting to AI generated customer service. There's tons of research coming hate not talking to humans at would be choosing a provider for So let's can we look at a little What can you expect if you're What is that expectation looking And then for how long? Right. So you stop the ad and the just keeps going.

Stacey Brown Randall: 27:15

Yeah, that's my favorite part You are absolutely right. When you are cultivating people to start referring you, particularly if they've never done it, but even getting more referrals from people who've already referred you, or you're putting a plan in place to get referrals from your client as they're working with you through the client experience, it will always start a little bit slower, right? And some of my clients would like, I don't know, I doubled my that's not the average, right? I do have clients with those truth is this will take a little It will because you have to be And that is, I always tell folks, if you're dead inside, you're not an ideal client for me because I have to know that you actually want to care about other people and take care of them. And so the idea here is that, to get started. But to your other point, when downhill, it's going to roll and as long as you keep implementing investing in these relationships kind of plans and models in my So we build everything in that So it's, hey, like I had an who learned everything from me. And the first couple of years we come back on the podcast. We're calling it a Where Are And we are eleven years later. And every year she implements on She modified things, dropped a few things, and kept the things that were giving her what she wanted. Right. And eleven years later, we're talking about her success and she says, this is just how I run the firm. This is just how we do things And I have lots of clients that It's, it's understanding that that you do. Yes. You may also still decide to run ads and pull your hair out every time the algorithm changes, or they change the targeting or the whatever, right? But with referrals, it is once start a little slower, but when roll downhill quite quickly, but execution of it. That will never go away. I don't care with what strategy or anything you put a piece of execution behind it.

Dawn Kennedy: 29:25

Yeah, but the maintenance of treat it like you did, very the prospecting, you would do like you would update us or LinkedIn bio or whatever those I would just imagine that with you would maintain it just like And it wouldn't have to feel referral pipeline because I'm was too easy. These referrals, they're buying I'm taking care of them. These referrals. It actually is probably, and I think you gave me a percentage on the last one, I can't remember, but what is the percentage of close rate on a good referral? Because I think that would also little bit about why you need to So what is the average close retention of the client?

Stacey Brown Randall: 30:23

Yeah. There's always been these a couple statistics that are always out. It's seventy percent is typically that closing ratio and like eighty. I think it fluctuates. It's always in the eighties. I think right now it's at eighty It's probably eighty nine. If I had to guess, it may even reach the nineties of people prefer to make a buying decision based on somebody giving them advice on how they should make that decision. They want a recommendation, they want a referral, they want to make decisions. And the type of clients I work clients I work with, it's no really want to get it right. So when you're hiring that attorney to help you incorporate your business or see you through a divorce, or you're hiring that business consultant to come in and help you work on an area in your business that isn't working, or you're hiring that architect or you're, you're hiring that CPA to help your business taxes and all the things, right? Those are expert based business You want to trust them for being And you need to trust the fact that this is the right decision and who you're hiring and who you're deciding to hire to work with. And that is always going to want to come through a referral, right? That is always going to be. That's why the closing ratios are around seventy percent and eighty six to eighty nine percent. Whatever it is right now, of decision, particularly a high One where there's probably not a refund period, because we're going to be doing work for a really long time and we're like, right, we're going to be actually putting a lot of money into this. That is where somebody I don't So the best way not to make a mistake is to have someone say, hey, this is the CPA I vouched for. This is the realtor I vouched This is the one I put my If you're looking for a business consultant or a financial advisor. We're looking for that when we

Dawn Kennedy: 32:09

That is absolutely fantastic. Mind blowing stat. So if you are not currently treating referrals in your business the way that the system does, I would encourage you to read the books, listen to the other podcast, who will link it below, and then also where can they find you and get more information and do business with understanding more about referrals.

Stacey Brown Randall: 32:33

Yeah. So the two books are I know you'll link to them. The first book is generating business referrals without asking. The second book is the referral I have my own podcast too, so if want to throw another one on its But I always tell folks the best Yeah, I have a website. It's my full name, Stacy Brown It's a great place to get but sometimes you just want to So just connect with me on You find me always by my full name, Stacy Brown, and I'll just connect and start paying attention to the conversations I'm having and what you see me posting and what you see us talking about, and read a book or two, or check out the podcast, you'll know pretty quickly. Yes, this is, I fundamentally believe, the same thing that Stacy does. And I want to generate referrals And then if that's the case, There's always ways to learn how

Dawn Kennedy: 33:28

Fantastic. So we will put the books, we will put Roadmap to Referrals podcast. We will put everything down in If you find us on the day we later, we will make sure that This is such an important topic and thank you so much for breaking that out so clearly, so that people can really see where referrals set or should sit in the business. Because I want to say in a lot of cases, because this is how we've been taught to think about it is it sits in that marketing most of the time, or it sits in a place that we think it's, oh, no, that's it's a communication, right? So we're communicating with science is a little different. So I appreciate you so much for It's so great to talk with you. And congratulations on your

Stacey Brown Randall: 34:19

That's really you so much. I appreciate your time as well.

Dawn Kennedy: 34:22

All right. Well, talk to you all next time Business Mastery Podcast. Take care. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Business Mastery Podcast. If you want to learn more about dot com and you can now check us course, any of your favorite Take care.