Episode 239: Legacies of Colonialism with Dr. Olivia Mason

Today Dominic Bowen hosts Dr. Olivia Mason. They dive into the intricacies of post-colonial states, environmental collapse and how the colonial era has influenced this collapse, post-colonial neglect, the re-shaping of colonial control in a post-colonial era through for example international conservation efforts, green colonialism as a form of resource control, environmental degradation and its impact on migration from the Global South, climate reparations and how those would look like, and more!

Dr. Olivia Mason is a Lecturer in Political Geography at Newcastle University. Her research explores mobility politics and resource colonialism, with a focus on Jordan and the South West Asia and North Africa (SWANA) region. She is particularly interested in how colonial legacies continue to shape environmental governance, nature, and cultural heritage. Olivia is committed to environmental and social justice and has worked extensively with NGOs, policymakers, artists and local communities to produce more equitable environmental futures.

Her research on mobility politics explores how movement is shaped by colonial legacies, culture, and infrastructure building, with published work on the politics of walking and cultural geographies of trail making in Jordan and the infrastructural geopolitics of walking trails across the SWANA region. Her work on resource colonialism examines how historical and contemporary forms of colonialism shape the environment. She is currently leading a UKRI-funded project that examines the relationships between resource extraction, indigenous rights, and postcolonialism in nature reserves in Jordan. This resource has resulted in publications that trace how nature conservation in Jordan is shaped by colonial frameworks and imaginations. She has also used participatory methods with communities living around nature reserves sites in Jordan today and published on the politics of indigeneity and the complex relationships between local communities, cultural heritage, and conservation sites.

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Transcript

00:00.12
Dominic Bowen
Welcome back to the International Risk Podcast. I'm Dominic Bowen, your host. And today we're talking about parts of the invisible scaffolding of modern risk, the environmental crisis, the rise of authoritarianism, and the fragmentation of global governance. Now, none of these topics are new. And they are inherited. And if we don't understand the historical wiring of the world, how the cartography of yesterday's empires carved today's fault lines, we're probably not doing risk management justice. 

Our guest today is dr Olivia Mason, and she's a lecturer in political geography at Newcastle University. And her work is in the space of international risk where environmental injustice, colonial legacies and mobility politics collide. And her research in Jordan is not just about one country's past. I think it's actually a mirror for how the entire region has been shaped by power, at times stripped of agency and even left managing systems that were actually never designed to serve the local populations. And I think the conversation with Olivia today is really going to encourage us to confront some hard truths and also just to remind us that if we can't understand and also remind us that we simply cannot understand today's risks unless we properly interrogate yesterday's actions. Dr. Olivia Mason, welcome to the International Risk Podcast.

01:34.08
Olivia Mason
Thank you very, very much for having me I'm very happy to be here today.

01:37.74
Dominic Bowen
Olivia, how much of today's instability, especially in post-colonial states, countries like Sudan, Nigeria, Lebanon, Palestine, how much of that can be traced not just to failed politics, but also to environmental collapse that was engineered during colonial rule and and ultimately sustained through the post-colonial neglect?

01:59.81
Olivia Mason
Yeah. Absolutely. So a lot of the the, particularly the way, so a lot of the way that we see the environment today across the Middle East is based very, very much on imaginations that arose largely from the colonial period. And part of the colonial ambitions and the way that the world was colonised by the British, amongst others, is through arguments that these other places are not able to manage their resources, that they have degraded environments, they have environments that are hard to manage, and they have populations living in those environments who are unable to manage them. And in fact, the reason why these environments are degraded is because the populations have ruined them and don't have the skills. Therefore, British colonialism was based on this premise that it has the knowledge, it is able to use these resources in the right way, it has the knowledge it has the people, the sophistication, the modernisation to look after the environment. So in order to create these narratives, and the whole colonial project was very much how can we create imaginations about the environment in a lots of the parts of the world that portray this degraded idea. So we see these these narratives, and particularly in colonial travel writing, colonial politicians frequently referring to parts of the world North Africa, Southwest Asia, Africa, as these desolate environments, these arid, empty, degraded, hostile, and we see all this language used increasingly across. So in order, so by creating that, there comes this idea that here we can come as the kind of colonial power and look after these environments we have we have this knowledge, which obviously is entirely untrue m and based entirely on these built imaginations um of this region that mess the the way that these environments have been completely, and that communities have rich knowledge, have been using these environments m n in really important ways. And also that the the colonial imagination, of course, is always the environment is something to be exploited. Environment is something to make money out of. That's the kind of colonial imagination, whether actually the environment as we know now should not be seen as something to make money to be exploited, but should be seen for the deep kind of value and that it has for, and for the life that it that that it brings the food, it the food, it can sustain the water and the water it can bring the rich resources it has that value beyond just economics.

04:50.53
Dominic Bowen
Yeah, it's quite interesting listening to you describe the colonial past has made me think of some comments made quite recently by an American political leader about what he wants to do in in Gaza and take Gaza back and we'll own it, we'll possess it, ah we'll turn it into something amazing, we'll turn, I think he's used terms like it's a dump and we'll turn it into something fantastic. So a lot of that narrative and that language that we're hearing in 2025 sounds a lot like the language that I think you were trying to explain from the eighteen hundreds but perhaps not all of it has fully died. You've done some very comprehensive work in Jordan, and this is one of the Middle East's most water-scarce countries. Can you talk to us about some of the practicalities? Now, any of us that have visited Amman or any parts of Jordan really you know fall in love. It's such a beautiful country with such fantastic, rich culture and just what's wonderful communities. But that's not the entire story. Can you tell us about how international or foreign conservation efforts in Jordan, often funded by Western institutions, have reshaped not just land use in Jordan, but also influenced political control in the country.

06:00.34
Olivia Mason
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the ways, ah so some of the research that I've been doing is particularly tracing environmental efforts in Jordan. So as you detail, Jordan is a state that has extreme resource scarcity, particularly water, but also a lot of environmental degradation, a lot of biodiversity loss. And the reason, and I've been tracking how has this kind of, how has this come to be, but also how has this been used by geopolitical powers and and in the past by colonial as a way to control land? Because of course, if we can use resources of scarcity, of degradation, it also allows these, and what you could see as kind of emergency measures or geopolitical saying, we need to act here, we need to do something. So it allows often states, for instance, to control parts of land. So i've looking I've looked at that with the history of nature reserves. So if we think of a history of nature conservation, of national parks, of protected areas, it's largely about state taking control of parts of land under this narrative of we need to protect the need need to protect the land. So when you have land degradation and when you have these issues of scarcity, these come along as solutions that are put forward, that we're going to look after this, we're going to stop this biodiversity loss through and this nature reserve. and So I've been looking at these nature reserves and really for over 10 years. I've been travelling to Jordan and and I first came across them largely because I'm very interested in and and in and walking and climbing and kind of being kind of part of nature. So when I first came to Jordan and that's one of the For me, one of the most beautiful parts of Jordan is it has this these this amazing nature that includes these stands, that includes these sandstone deserts in the south, but also these water canyons and that go through its rift valley and also these really beautiful kind of northern green limestone, and limestone m and valleys in the north. And I think often, again, we think of, we we like to homogenize places that include Jordan. We see it as this one thing where it has a really diverse landscape. So, I was really, i spent time there and I was really interested by what what does it mean for the communities living around this landscape and how is this nature being shaped by and kind of colonial efforts. So I was looking at these nature reserves as kind of one example of this, because firstly, what a history of nature reserves has done is it tends to and fence off kind of nature and that often removes the communities are living around these areas and what and what that means and there has been a history of that but also that these nature reserves have also been part of a kind of geopolitical story in Jordan as well because I was tracing, and so these nature reserves these and nature reserves were set up in the 1960s. So formal British um colonialism ended in 1947. But nature conservation is often a way where we can see colonialism ongoing, even after the end of what we see as formal administration. And I think that's really key, that colonialism should not be seen as this colonial and then this post-colonial period. There was this year that many countries existed and many states gained independence and instantly they were kind of through they were kind of free from colonial rule, that it still continued. And narratives and control over nature was one of the ways that this happened. So the 1960s saw British expeditions to Jordan to look into establishing nature reserves and setting them up. And a whole range of geopolitical actors became involved and at this time period. So you have letters from and the Duke of Edinburgh at the time, Prince Philip emailing King Hussein of Jordan at the time congratulating him on these nature reserves. so this soft geopolitical power that was happening to maintain these relationships and you can see King Hussein at the time of Jordan being very very interested in these nature reserves because it could allow him to be part of global conversations so the 1960s was a ah movement a huge global movement towards nature conservation organisations such as the International Union for the Conservation of Nature were set up. So it also allowed Jordan to be kind of part of these international conversations at this time. So we can see them as simply about, oh, they're simply about nature. But actually, there's far much more going on here. And they're quite an important geopolitical tool, ah soft kind of power, you might you might think.

10:56.62
Dominic Bowen
Thanks for explaining that, Olivia. And you've brought up quite a few points I want to follow up on. But one of them was actually a point that I didn't think we were actually going to discuss during today's conversation. You've produced a lot of fantastic research, Olivia, and I encourage our listeners to to read it and and to go into it in depth. But I was expecting more to be talking about the environment and some of the more historical trends that have contributed to today. But you've said quite a few things that that really you talked about the emergency measures and emergency language that people have used in the past. And it does make me think a little bit about, um I alluded to it before, but Donald Trump's first 100 days ah in office and in his declaration of national emergencies to ah bypass Congress and to enact policies by decree. you know, we've got the Southern border emergency. We've got trade and economic policy that, again, has been justified based on an emergency, with fentanyl, um expanding the presidential powers and and invoking the National Emergencies Act to to invoke tariffs on on allies and foes alike, um and bypassing many checks and balances. And even the Supreme Court, trade courts, lower courts have all ruled against it. But these declarations making it harder and harder for courts to check his power. I just wondered, listening to your language and listening to the concerns of some of the courts in the USA, there seems to be  some overlap. Do you see a you know, we talk about history repeating itself. Do you see similarities between some of the the language being used today and I guess what you've often studied and written about and researched?

12:32.67
Olivia Mason
Yeah, absolutely. And I think these these forms of what does what does colonial power or what does kind of hegemony look like and and that what does... What does it look like today? It's very, very much connected to how it looked in the past. And I think neo-colonialism or indeed the ways that the US is enacting forms of and global kind of hegemony are very, very much connected to what we can see in the in the past. And I mean, in Jordan, you can see very, very clearly the point at which kind of British colonialism and control ended and then American kind of control moves in, doing very similar things and using very, very different language. but in ah in a slightly different way. So I think we need to be very, it's is's important to connect these things and to make these connections and show these connections to people, because I think that often that often doesn't happen. And we see this as something completely kind of and new that's being done. But no, these these are same, these colonial powers of using particularly using notions of emergency, scarcity, political kind of instability, conflict, to allow that. We know that that's what happens. That's when a lot of these measures come in that take control of land and and allow this to happen, often kind of under an under a guise of emergency or this is this is essential. And that is, we can date that back to very, very much kind of colonial mechanisms of control.

14:09.34
Dominic Bowen
And you also talked about the pre-colonial and post-colonial period and and perhaps showed some resistance to that. I wonder about green colonialism and if if that's if that's a thing. I know some people, some of our listeners might be rolling their eyes right now and thinking this is a a far left conspiracy theory. But I think having looked into it over the last couple of weeks in in preparation for this conversation, i think that this this terminology and the concerns expressed by people that are talking about green colonialism really does seem to be much more mainstream. And I think we've I've seen and I've been reading a lot of the research from really mainstream actors. that are arguing along the lines of things that that what we see as solar panels and good really are potentially the new missionaries of our generation affecting local communities. So I'd love to hear your opinion, Olivia. Do you think the West's current climate policy, especially what's directed towards, not from, but directed towards Africa and towards the Middle East, is this just another form of recess control dressed up as sustainability or is is that unfair?

15:14.70
Olivia Mason
I would say it's it absolutely is. I mean, green colonialism, yeah, I think it it may seem, and and terms such as greenwashing that come with this may seem as terms that sound Yeah, perhaps to the m to to the left of things or or, you know, how can you call this colonialism even perhaps? And surely, and I think a narrative that we hear a lot as well is that if something is if something is for the environment, it is always good. It must be a good thing if it's for the environment. But it's precisely that narrative that is the problem that often makes it more difficult to be challenged. And a lot of the green, and the kind of environmental projects and the green projects that we're seeing across and North Africa, and the Middle East, the Southwest Asia, North Africa and region, is often very, very much green colonialism or greenwashing. So we can think for clear examples and are the Morocco state and control of Western Sahara. So often it's it's building huge and wind farms there. and So these are often narrated as these are for the national good, these are about and progression, these are about modernisation, about making our green economy. But actually, when you look into it, it's another way for them to control and land that is indigenous, it's disputed land. m um And for people to be less likely to question that, we can also think of projects such as Neom in Saudi Arabia, this large kind of mega environmental city that's been built and in the desert. And arguably one of the kind of building a green city in the desert is itself ah completely ridiculous you know a lot of people say the most green thing to do would be not to build a kind of an eco city in the desert the people who are living in the desert are using you know learn from them him learn for the actual communities you can think around say bedouin communities have been living in this area and maintaining it very very sustainable way but it's the idea no the most sustainable thing is to bring in all this technology to bring in huge amounts of air conditioning, that that that's what we need. That's the kind of sustainability. So often a lot of these, again, are about ways of controlling land physically, but also switching a narrative away. And I think that's also important as well. It can be a way of dispelling criticism of the state by saying, look, we're doing these great kind of green projects, right? look to distract maybe from, we can think about the case of Saudi Arabia from maybe some of the the oil, it's kind of oil economy, look where it's moved from the oil economy to the green economy m and to show, so any criticism of its kind of m oil. but But a lot of and the way that that green and environmental and projects are also part of this, and I would see them as part of this green colonialism, is again, they're often based on knowledge that is formed in the global north. So it's again, this idea, we hold the knowledge, which goes exactly back to the kind of colonial ideas, we have the solutions, we know best how to manage your land. this technology and that takes place. And again, a lot of the these green energy projects are not based on using any kind of indigenous or local knowledge, they're based on using knowledge from a lab. They're often The best, the most sustainable projects are often those that are locally based. m what What might work as a green project in one area does not necessarily mean it will work in in another area and often m within these projects that's never taken into account.

19:17.50
Dominic Bowen
Thanks for unpacking that for us, Olivia. And I know colonialism established patterns of, well, I think we can be... can be Colonial, oh my gosh, colonialism established patterns of environmental exploitation, and I think it's fair to say that. And we know that there was large-scale resource extraction. That was a huge part of what colonialism was trying to achieve. There was deforestation. There was disruption, significant disruptions to many ecosystems. And many of these activities still persist today, or at least the legacy or the outcomes of those persist today. Is it possible to separate the current environmental crisis in the global south from the colonial histories, or is there just too much entanglement between the two?

20:04.83
Olivia Mason
I think absolutely there is there is entanglement between and resource extraction in the global north and the global south. But I think it is absolutely fair to say that a lot of the resource, m and the resort theor i think it's very, very fair to say that resource extraction was a key part of colonialism. That was a key part of colonial endeavors. and a key part of a lot of our contemporary geopolitics as well is over resources, is over continued control of resources. and If we look at what's led to a lot of conflicts, what's led to a lot of involvement even more recently of say the US, of and the UK in a lot of conflicts, it's where resources are at stake and it's where There's there's high potential for resources and that dates back to what colonialism was primarily about. It was about extracting the resources from other states in order to ensure the kind of development of and the global north. And I think and it should never be understated the role of resources and controlling resources and exploiting resources that is that is central to colonialism. But also a lot of the conflicts that continue to arise today have been created through these legacies of extraction and the capitalist and the capitalism that also is always associated with and resource extraction. And resource extraction is always based on as well the exploitation of local communities, primarily to assist with that extraction. Who is part of these global chains? Who is part of those so those extraction? So all the resources that we that we use that we use today, if you look back on their legacy, they have a legacy of and extraction that damages the earth itself. They're built on the labour and and often the deaths of communities living in these areas around these resources and and often the long-term kind of health impacts of this resource extraction in pollution, in colonialism, the long-term residue in the soil and is still, I think, under under and under under-established,

22:39.48
Dominic Bowen
It's quite interesting. If we look at multinational companies, ah there's a lot of great companies out there. There's a lot of companies with some questionable past. But I understand things like making sure that there is genuine informed consent. Now, informed consent and consent are different things. But making sure that Indigenous and local communities are really giving informed consent. There's some sort of benefit sharing. There's some sort of local development. ah you know There's respect for sustainability and human rights standards. There is you know really robust engagement across civil society groups, including watchdog groups, local stakeholders, local governments, and making sure there's feedback mechanisms. But not every multinational corporation does this well, um if it's done at all. I wonder if you can talk to the extent that modern national that modern companies are perhaps replicating the extractive behaviours of colonial regimes, or are we seeing you know really good reporting? Are we seeing good behaviour from companies today? Are things like the ESG reporting leading to better behaviour, or are you quite concerned by what you're seeing from companies now instead of states?

23:50.63
Olivia Mason
it's a It's a very important question, the role now that that companies are taking on instead of states. So we know that this was historically, particularly during the colonial period, it was states themselves who were who were part of these extractive practices. And absolutely, we know now it's these global companies. And I think what is... What is challenging is is who's holding these different actors to account? What is our ability to hold these actors to account? And i have to say, i I am still incredibly concerned and about... and I am still incredibly concerned about whether these companies are actually doing the more sustainable, and the working with local communities that they actually say they can do. I was in m Mongolia last summer and Mongolia said, is a state that is seeing a huge amount of mining, huge and amount of coal mining, copper mining, that you you name the mineral, there's kind of a mine being set up in Mongolia around these, largely funded and by China, he and who has the kind of the ah the finance to to be able to do that. And and in order to if you want to start a new mine for instance in in Mongolia you have to fill out an environmental impact assessment and part of this environmental impact assessment requires consultation with communities and so we went and sat with communities and asked them how how were they part of these environmental impact assessments and Yes, they are invited to take part in, say, a town hall meeting, but it doesn't matter. Whatever they say is not actually taken in, doesn't have to be implemented. So all the company has to say is that an environmental impact assessment was carried out. We even spoke to one community who said that they walked out of the meeting But it still took place. So that even though no one was even still sitting in that meeting, they could still say we consulted the community, the license the licence is issued from the from the government and it happens. And often these environmental impact assessments, so again, in the case of Mongolia, they're often at a very... basic level so they look at the impact on say um of the mine on the kind of the the the ground or um what it means but the environmental impacts are often huge and the the roads that have to be built in order to bring these materials in and out and often these aren't paved roads then create sandstorms and the the pollution in the air that the the pollution into water and deep down that that's been carried through wells that might be quite far away from this mining site. and So often we hear about this work that's been that these organisations have to do these practices, but then when we actually speak with the communities who are engaged in these, it's much less promising.

27:09.13
Dominic Bowen
Well, thanks for explaining that to us, Olivia. And I'll remind our listeners to go to theinternationalriskpodcast.com and subscribe to our newsletter. It comes out every second week and ensures that you're up to date with all the latest podcasts, book reviews, and articles we're producing on topics related to what we're speaking about on the podcast.

27:27.98
Dominic Bowen
But Olivia, i'd like to switch a little bit and talk with you about mobility. Now, when Western governments crack down on migration from the global south, and we're seeing that across Europe, across North America, in many countries, there is this crackdown on illegal migration. I wonder, are you aware, of you done research, can you talk to how much of that movement is actually driven by resource extraction, environmental degradation that's actually being led by these same global north countries and now pushing back on global south migration?

28:03.03
Olivia Mason
Absolutely. So a new term that we're seeing emerging recently is climate refugees. And these are refugees who are who are having to leave because of climate related challenges. And these absolutely date back often to the communities who are most vulnerable to climate change are those communities who are who are the furthest away from those who have caused the the environmental challenges but also who continue to make the decisions and around this. we are m I'm sitting in the UK and we are very, very lucky that for many of us still climate change feels like something that is that is distant for many even though floods we're seeing the kind of impact through through flooding we're seeing it through drought even and most recently kind of in the UK but it's still I'd say for most people feels something that's far away yet for many communities particularly in areas across South West Asia, North Africa, climate change is something that's already being kind of experienced and and that is already leading to to the forced movement of many, many communities of waste due to drought, due to desertification. Food shortages as a result of these, water shortages, that there's just no way of being able to make a living off land that they might have been living off for for hundreds and for hundreds of years. And also the damage of pollution leads a lot of families. So families, for instance, living around mines are forced to leave as well. The air quality is simply not... and is simply not safe, the water around them, if there is any water, is not safe anymore. But often these, and what we could call kind of climate refugees, are kind of, we we classify all m kind of refugees and we kind of demonize all refugees without ever looking at their at the root causes. And of course, all refugees are leaving because often of conflict over resources resources or climate change that is not because of their doing. And often, again, we don't make these connections between what is the root cause and we focus more on we don't focus on what what is causing these refugee movements, what is it that's leading them to leave, m leave, leave where they're from and what are the actual environmental degradation that's happening there. And often we don't connect that refugees are not connected to what what is it that's led them to leave and a move.

31:01.75
Dominic Bowen
And I wonder when we think about reparations, I'm personally quite torn and I i think I'm torn because I don't know enough. So I'd really love your help, Olivia. I know that some people on the left argue that reparations are simply necessary, partly for justice and healing, but also because they're a necessary step to address enduring and ongoing economic, social, psychological, environmental damage caused by colonialism. But I also know there's people on the left ah that that think that so reparations actually reinforce dependency and keep communities tied to the trauma of the past instead of looking forward. And they warn that you know reparations could actually inadvertently maintain this paternalistic dynamic. And conversely, other actors suggest that current generations shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of of former generations and ah assigning a monetary value to historical suffering suffering is is impractical and potentially insulting to descendants of of of both sides of of the equation. If there was going to be reparations, ah you know what would a successful model of of climate reparations actually look like? One that acknowledges the impacts and acknowledges colonialism, but actually leads to a healthy future.

32:22.21
Olivia Mason
Yeah, absolutely. So I think that the first part of the first part of thinking about climate reparations is really thinking through what is meaningful for those people who are most impacted by climate change. And some of the most compelling work that I have and arguments that I've heard recently is from... m particularly from indigenous scholars and who argue, firstly, that a lot of the the de- colonial movement is largely being metaphorical.
So it's largely being acknowledging, acknowledging the past am or issues around and representation or acknowledgement that they often feel are quite performative. So, for instance, we might think of in Canada, and that land acknowledgements are now a kind of central part of and and any kind of formal event or formal visit is to acknowledge that that much of kind of present day Canada is on and Indigenous land. And while for many, these these acknowledgements and these land acknowledgements are important they often do limit that kind of performativity so it then moves from the the performativity to what actually is is the material change because these communities have lost materially they've they've lost land they've lost access to resources they've been forced um to move to towns, to sedentarise, to be removed from their cultures. They've also lost rich cultural heritage. They've lost traditions. They've lost language and in many of these. So to simply, while our acknowledgement of that is important for many of these communities, that there needs to be a material outcome too, because ultimately the colonial community
The colonial powers, these multinational companies, they've gained materially from this. They have gained huge amounts of profits. So no one would kind of query that. So why kind of query the calling of these communities for material rights, material outcomes, which I absolutely am agree with and and and think that that is important to acknowledge, or else we continue to kind of romanticise them, I think, more as these communities who simply just need to be told that they have this kind of cultural heritage or recognised for that without being recognised as they have rich and knowledge as well that should be valued. They've got ways of and of of them of managing of government systems, ways of and political organisation that we should also and value and they should be given kind of the materiality to be able to to to enact those and I think it's just about being clear on what what terms does that material benefit look like because if it's on the terms of these multinational organizations or it's on the terms of the states then yes it's it's not going to it's not going to work but if it's actually what how do they what do they want to use this money for and that goes against that capitalism is often a way of seeing finances, seeing how money should be used in a way that's often antagonistic to actually how indigenous communities would see see see the value of of money. So I think that that's the clear thing. If we impose a materiality based on capitalism on them, then obviously that's that's wrong as well.

36:35.59
Dominic Bowen
Okay, certainly more for us to consider there, Olivia. and And we always ask guests on the International Risk Podcast, when they look around the world, and it could be related to fields that you work in closely, or it could be different things, but what are the risks that concern you the most?

36:55.14
Olivia Mason
The risks that concern me around the world mostly are definitely the the dehumanization of a lot of communities around the world that we're that that we're seeing and we see that in the media we can see that now with Palestinians um in Gaza we can see that dehumanization occurring and that when we allow that to take to take shape and to allow people to become kind of dehumanised, I think that that justifies a lot of violence in the world and that is a huge risk. So for me, what my research is always about and what I'm always doing is always central, is is finding stories and speaking to people and hearing to people about what have they experienced, what does this global change mean to them in their everyday life, how have they experienced, what does that mean to them, and also just hearing hearing how they experience the world, how do they see it, because I think when we experience the world from multiple different perspectives and that we humanise people wherever they might be, it creates it. It leads to us challenging a lot of the ways that our political leaders tell us the world is being operated, at a lot of the ways that multinationals explain the world to us. So we need to always, a huge risk in this world is this dehumanisation, these flattening of narratives that the media are. and the mainstream media m constantly does our political leaders like to do and and we should always seek in everywhere we and any time we want to understand more about the world when we hear about a place in the news is to go and actually say I want to hear some stories I want to find a way of actually hearing from the people who are living there what does it actually what are they actually experiencing I think if we were all a lot more able to do that and we would be able to challenge. But I think we'd also see that a lot of the risks we're being told in our world aren't the real risks. m I think that the risks that am concerned about would be very different to those risks that are our politicians tell us. And we need to be quite sceptical about what they tell us and are the risks and speak to people on the ground. what What are their risks? And I think often they'll be quite different.

39:25.65
Dominic Bowen
Oh, I love that answer. Thanks very much, Olivia. and I think that's a really important point. I think you' your your explanation of that dehumanizing and how that's a significant risk is is a really important one because, I mean, we we see it. I mean, I listen to it every morning on the on the BBC. I read these stories every day on Bloomberg. You know, they're just continually out there.
Gaza, Ukraine, Myanmar, Ethiopia, know the citizens, you just see them stripped of their or attempts to strip them of their humanity, both in in rhetoric, in government policy, and then, of course, in in practice. And, you know, we see the targeting of civilians, of noncombatants, and even just that normalizing of suffering and the normalizing of death is just a its collateral damage when, you know, it's it's not. And these are breaches of international law. And I think this dehumanisation has been, sadly, really effective in justifying violence, justifying torture, and in some cases, even justifying genocide. i mean, we see that in the Rohingya crisis in Burma, the ongoing war in Gaza, Russia's daily bombing of civilian targets and killing of civilians every day in Ukraine.

40:31.12
Dominic Bowen
I think this and the language and rhetoric used by politicians to justify these actions devastating. is really concerning and it and leads to a really dangerous space. So thanks very much for raising that. And Olivia, thank you very much for coming on the International Risk Podcast.

40:49.51
Olivia Mason
Thank you very, very much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

40:52.95
Dominic Bowen
Well, that was a great conversation with Dr. Olivia Mason. She's a lecturer in political geography at Newcastle University, and I really appreciated hearing her thoughts on how colonialism has shaped the current environmental challenges and what risks are occurring today that potentially mirror previous colonial mistakes.

41:10.73
Dominic Bowen
Please remember to subscribe to our newsletter so you get our information direct into your inbox. Today's podcast was produced and coordinated by Elisa Garbil. I'm Dominic Bowen, your host. Thanks very much for listening.
We will speak again next week.