Doing Change Right

Change is everywhere right now, but the real question is what separates the teams that steady themselves from the teams that spiral. We lean into what we are seeing organizations do well when change is thrust on them, especially when they cannot control the timing or the stakes. One of the biggest patterns: leaders who do not panic. They spend less time reacting, move faster into problem solving, and use any runway they have to plan farther out than the next few weeks. 

We also get practical about what “doing change” actually looks like. We talk about naming change champions, putting real resources around transformation, and using an impact map to think through every role, every reporting line, and the reactions you can predict before they blow up your rollout. Then we go straight at a post-COVID reality many workplaces are navigating: clearer boundaries, more direct expectations, and honest conversations about whether this is still someone’s home. Done with respect, that clarity can be healthy for both the organization and the individual. 

To close, we bring it down to the personal level with a tool that works in leadership and in life: decision criteria. From job offers to board-level tech choices, a short list of must-haves cuts through emotion and brings back a sense of control, which is exactly what people crave in the middle of change. If you want calmer change management, stronger leadership communication, and a more intentional culture, press play, and subscribe.

Transcript

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Banter And A Quick Setup

Karman 0:30

Good morning, Scott and Tammy. Good morning, Carmen. Well howdy, Carmen. Are you are you tipping your hat? Your big ten guy hat?

Scott 0:41

I'm tipping something. Tipping owls, tipping my hat. Tipping the bottle. Whatever it takes.

Tammy 0:49

That's it, Mr. Bergmar.

Scott 0:52

We gotta get through podcasts somehow.

Tammy 0:56

You also have to get through life, you're entertaining yourself. Let's just admit it.

Scott 1:00

I do, yes. Very much so.

What Is Going Right With Change

Scott 1:03

Yep.

Karman 1:03

Well, you know, sometimes when somebody is tipping their hat or lifting a glass, it's because we're celebrating something. The thing I was thinking about today is we're working with a lot of organizations who are going through a lot of change. We're walking with them through that. And sometimes we talk about like what's not going well, what can we learn from others' mistakes? And this morning I wanted to take a different tack and say, what do you see people doing well right now with change? So it's gonna be a super short podcast.

Tammy 1:40

No one ever asks us this question. And when we ask these questions, like with executives or in leadership classes, I mean, this is a really hard thing for them to talk about, like what's right instead of what's wrong. So I love the fact that you've turned it around on us, but now I know how it feels. Oh, that is uh that was uh a really good one. It's like, hey, that's why they always stare at us when we ask these kinds of questions. So let's think about that for just a minute. Scott, are you ready? We have one example. Yeah, yeah.

Scott 2:18

Well, I when Carmen said that, the first thing that came to my mind is I think lots of people in organizations are identifying good things to change. Like they're like they're saying, hey, we should do this, we should do that. I think our next steps and this is a good path. Like now, like we can sit and debate are the is that too many to, but when I step out, I think like I would say pretty much a hundred percent of our clients are identifying things that and usually they're they're good and solid changes that they should make. That's called a cop out. Oh no, I have others. Would you like the rest of my list, or would you like to go back and forth? I'd hate to take yours.

Tammy 3:03

You I'd better take one because it might run out. So I agree with that, but I just want you to know that's like a total cop-out. Okay, but that's okay. I would accept that in the classroom, so I'll accept it from you. I will tell you.

Scott 3:15

I would I couldn't tell if we were facilitating or if we were judging. Apparently, it's the second.

Tammy 3:20

Well, thank you very much. I I do love you this morning, not very much, but that's a whole nother story. I

No Panic And Longer-Term Planning

Tammy 3:27

will tell you, I'm thinking about a specific organization. And in this particular situation, an industry where a change was thrust upon them, not anything that they could have had any control over whatsoever. And the other part of it is that there was a really good runway. And the thing that I really appreciated about this particular organization is that when that change came, one, they didn't panic. Okay, so that's an upside, right? They didn't go, oh, the sky's fumbling. And you know, they spent very little to no time at all reacting negatively to the change. And they actually went right into problem-solving mode. And that's unusual, I think, in some organizations because they had a year, right? They had a full-fledged year for them to be able to say, we know that that's gonna happen then. So in this particular case, what can we do? And they analyzed that and they made a ton of decisions. So there's two things about that. One, they didn't panic when something happened, which I thought was amazing. The second piece of it that I really appreciated is that they were willing to think so far out. And I think a lot of times we see people and organizations looking too closely to the horizon, right? They they really need to be further out so that they can make good decisions. And because this change, this thing that was going to put on top of them, gave them a year, they then took that year. And I think they're pretty well prepped for when that big shift is going to happen for them. And they put themselves in a financial situation where I think they have a really good chance of weathering the storm. So, from that standpoint, I love that lack of panic and I love that thinking further ahead, because the further ahead you think, the better chance you have to win.

Change Champions And Impact Mapping

Scott 5:24

I am seeing clients identify more change champions. So thinking of a client who have been talking about, hey, we need to do some pretty heavy transformation, pretty heavy improvement in the organization, and saying, hey, here's here's the executive who's gonna lead the charge, and we're gonna put staff around it to do that, right? So that that's cool to see like the recognition that, oh, this isn't a let's talk about it, this is a hey, let's put some resources around it. The the other one I've seen a couple organizations do, and this is a little bit on the other side of what's not going well too, but I'm watching a couple organizations build their impact map. So, again, if people remember the impact map, is you list everyone in the organization, every name, and what do they do today, and who do they report, like who they report to, and what is this going to do to them in their world? And what how do we think they're going to react? And what do I need to do to get ahead of that? Like, I'm watching them do this and be more and more thoughtful about it, which we know from our experience and from the research, the more I do that, the easier it is to get ahead of

Post-COVID Boundaries And Opting Out

Scott 6:44

it.

Tammy 6:45

I think there's another piece of it too. We are seeing this is something that I've seen the trend of coming out of COVID. I think there was a lot of, let me use the word, I'm just gonna be patient and I'm going to let people do what they need to do. And they came kind of back into the workforce in a way that wasn't necessarily healthy because we've been kind of alone for a while. And so it was this piece where I'd really forgotten how to work well with others, and I've forgotten that it's our job to be a unit, right? And it's not all about me, it's actually about the whole. And I think that when we first came out of COVID, there was some we were concerned about letting people go. We were concerned about saying that's not okay. And I think one of the things that I am seeing in every single one of the organizations that I work with right now is this pot that says, hey, we're human and I get it. And there's a place where if you can't align with where we're going and what we're doing, you know, this isn't your home. And I've seen us work with clients and have a lot more conversations about that than I have seen before. And I've seen that in a lot of cases, people decide that they can, you know, they can figure out a way to make it work for them. So it's not like we're just terminating folks, but I'm seeing that just by having the conversation that things like people step up into it, they are actually capable of it, right? And then the ones who just can't tolerate it, we've had an organization where we've just seen people and their senior leaders, even sometimes, will resign. And I actually think that that's healthy for everyone. If this is not my home, if I can't live with this particular change, I don't like what's going on, the opportunity to do it. So I'm seeing it actually both ways. Organization saying this is what we have to have, and individuals saying, you know, I I hear you, and this isn't my home. And Scott, you had that happen this week, okay, with an organization where someone was like, This isn't my home, and and they left. An organization that I work really closely with lost a senior member of their team who said, you know, this isn't the direction that I want to go. And they picked up and and left and went to a whole other part of the country.

Scott 9:15

I I am seeing more people, you know, drawing drawing the line to say, you know, this is where we're going. And you e, you know, they're not saying it this plainly, but essentially they're saying you gotta get on board or you need a GTFO.

Tammy 9:34

And again, if we do that in a respectful way, for sure. I think that's positive. And I think it's really positive when someone looks at themselves and decides. Because I do think like you have a choice. And I think it's cool that people are starting to say, I do have a choice. Do I want to stay or do I want to go? And and making that choice for themselves so that they can do work and do work with people and around a mission and a vision that is meaningful for them. And so I I like that. I I like the fact that people are starting to recognize we have the right to set boundaries and we have the right to make choices for ourselves of whether or not we want to live within those boundaries.

Scott 10:15

Yeah, I'm seeing more leaders also set the boundary. Like I'm seeing people set the boundary for themselves. I'm seeing people take action on that boundary. I'm also seeing leaders take more in general, I'm seeing them take more action, which is healthy.

Tammy 10:30

I think it is, right?

Scott 10:31

And I was with I was with a group yesterday and I said, gosh, it seems like I'm telling you all that like to you should be firing more people. And like, that's really not like that's not my message, but like what I kept asking them was they they would say, Well, it's hard. This is hard. And my question was, Well, is it hard enough that you should quit? Like, you should just quit trying to do this for the organization. Well, they're well, we don't want like, no, we can't quit. We need to, okay, great. So it's hard, what do you gonna do? Right. And then the other one was, well, the the VPs of the directors or this doctor and provider, they won't like it. And my question, I probably asked it a dozen times. It really should have been a drinking game yesterday. Was why do they get a choice? Well, we were gonna do that two years ago, but and they named uh one one specific person. That person didn't like it, so we decided not to do it. Like, why the hell? Like, who made them king or queen of the of the planet that they get to outvote everyone? And what I what I loved is they're starting to recognize oh, we as leaders allow them to dictate where we're going.

Karman 11:42

One of the things I hear in both parts of that, the opting out or asking people to opt out is being more intentional about those places instead of feeling like you know, the change is happening to us. How are we dealing with it?

Decision Criteria Beats Gut Feelings

Scott 12:02

Someone I've known for a long time has has a job offer and they're struggling to make a decision. It's not a client, it's just right, it's a friend, and and they're like, I don't know what to do. And I'm like, Well, what's your criteria? And they're like, criteria? What do you mean? I'm like, well, like, what's your minimum? Like, usually there's something around pay, and no, I don't really have friends, I just use the F word so it wouldn't get beeped.

Tammy 12:30

We're literally like Scott has friends. I mean, it was such a shock. I mean, I've worked with Scott for over 20 years, I didn't even know he had friends.

Scott 12:39

I have acquaintances. Yeah.

Tammy 12:42

I'm watching Ted Lasso, and you know, there's a character in Ted Lasso that in many ways reminds me a little of you, Scott. He's this really gruff. No, it's not, it's definitely, in fact, we know who Ted is in our organization. It's not Ted, it's actually the who do you think is Ted in the organization? Well, did you watch the episode this week?

Scott 13:07

No, I have not. I've not watched any of this current season.

Tammy 13:11

So it's funny, there's a whole thing around teaming. Okay, and they're like, okay, there's like there's characteristics of people that keep organizations from teaming, being able to be together. And they're like, so they they were naming what was happening with the dynamics of the women's soccer team. And then they said, okay, so in our group, and there's now three coaches in our group, who's each of them? And they all pointed to someone else for each one of the roles, and they just all started laughing because it was like, um, yeah, we all think it's always the other person.

Karman 13:46

Yeah, yeah, yep.

Tammy 13:49

But anyway, we we got off track there in that particular spot.

Karman 13:53

Scott's pretend friend has a job offer, and what are the criteria?

Scott 13:59

And so I asked, you know, what's the criteria? And they'd never kind of thought about it as criteria. I said, you know, what what I've done, what back in the olden days when I interviewed for jobs, after I was finished with the interview, I and and many times even before I would apply, I would write down what you know, what are my three or four must-haves. And then my decision criteria would be like, okay, if I have four things, I have to have at least these two, or I need to have three of the four. If I don't have the, then it's a no. I'm then I'm not making an emotional decision. I'm not, and they had never thought of them like, so stop talking about the job. What are your and they and they wrote down like, oh, I I want to work remote. That's important to me because they have kids and they want to be able to spend time with their kids. Great. There's a certain pay, right? Level that they currently have that they don't want to go below a certain place, and they want to have some ability to flex, flex their time. It's a kind of a sales kind of role. And and I said, okay, now you know that. Bounce the job off the criteria. Well, so then they they called and said, Nope, you know, I'm not gonna take the job. And they tried to talk them into it. No, we really want you, blah, blah, blah. Um, and my text with them was, so what's your does it meet your criteria? And then their response was, you know, all the emotion, you know, all of the things that we do, right? We wrestle with all these things in our brain. And, you know, so I got this long text, and my response was, so does that mean it meets the criteria or does it meet the criteria?

Tammy 15:41

You know, it's

Intentionality As The Real Advantage

Tammy 15:42

funny, Scott, because just this week I did a board training. Okay. And this particular board has to make quite a few decisions around technology. And will they bring technology into their organizations? And if they do, the association is going to do a group deal for them. If they, you know, if people say no, then that group deal won't be there, and individual members will have to pay quote unquote full retail. And one of the things and the thing that I did at the end of this whole day where it was like, hey, here's this opportunity, here's this opportunity, here's this opportunity, is we went through decision making. And that piece of what's the criteria for a good decision, I actually told a personal story about how I use criteria in order to make sure that I'm on track. And it's the decision that, you know, before I got married and before I was dating, I put together a whole list of have-to-haves for a spouse and like to have's for a spouse. And when Michael finally came along, I was like, yep, he's the one because he met he met the criteria. And I think people don't think that way. And I know we were talking about like, here's the positive things in the world. But what's really cool is not only did you just help a friend think through what is a good decision before they made the decision. Yeah, that fake friend, yeah. So it's what fake friend in that space. But it's interesting that you just help someone an F friend has so many meanings. Exactly. And then we have a whole group of board members and you know, probably 20 people or so. And again, that it is something where this intentionality, let's come back to that. Helping people be intentional as they move forward, and there is a gift in that intentionality of feeling like you're in control of your life, making decisions because you thought it through and said, This makes sense to me. And maybe that's part of what we're seeing is all of these places and spaces where instead of just going willy-nilly and just letting the wind blow you wherever it goes, maybe we're seeing more intentionality. And I like that thought. I would really like that to be true because I do know that it leads to a better life. It usually leads to better decisions and it leads to places where we feel like we are in control, we're making a difference, and we can take control of our life instead of having it happen to us. And in the middle change, that's what a lot of people feel like. They feel out of control that things are happening to them. And so if people are being intentional, that is a place where we get calmer, less reactive, the ability to think things through and not be in that part of your brain where you're like freaking out, but in that part of your brain, you know, where you're actually using it and deciding for yourself. I think that's kind of a cool thing that this conversation has led me to.