The WOFOYO Podcast
The WOFOYO Podcast
From Church Walls to Real World Ministry: Connecting Faith with Life Experience
C Dub and Bones explore the critical importance of real-world experience in ministry and how connecting with people requires understanding their daily struggles beyond church walls. They examine a viral clip of a pastor who discovered that gaining secular work experience dramatically improved his ability to relate to his congregation.
• Discussion of Hebrews 4:14-16 and Matthew 22:34-40 as biblical foundation for authentic ministry
• Exploration of the "ministry bubble" phenomenon where pastors expect congregants to always come to them
• Personal testimony about finding God's presence more powerfully in a fishing boat than in traditional church settings
• Analysis of the "religious spirit" that often prevents authentic connection with both God and struggling believers
• Powerful story about facing financial hardship and finding God's provision in moments of complete brokenness
• Warning against comparing our spiritual journeys and fruit with others
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Speaker 1:Hey everybody, welcome to the Wofoyo podcast with C Dove and Bones. We are going to step in it today, which is not unusual as of late. I want to talk about Hebrews, chapter 4, and we'll go verses 14 through 16, and we'll go into Matthew 22. Verse 14. Seeing, then, that we have a great high priest who was passed through the heavens, jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession, for we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in the time of need. This is Matthew 22, 34 through 40.
Speaker 1:Very familiar passage, but when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him saying Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law? Jesus said to him you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment, and the second is like it you shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets, so Bones sends me this clip Stirred the chili a little bit, I guess yeah.
Speaker 1:Don't know who the guy was. It says what ministry he's with, but it's one of these Facebook things that plays on a loop. The guy was saying basically this, basically this he said I believe that before somebody becomes a pastor they need to have some real world experience. They should either have a job or own a company or something. They need to have real life work experience or be bivocational before they take a pastor spot vocational before they take a pastor spot. And he relayed his own experience to where he was a pastor.
Speaker 1:He all of a sudden had to go out didn't necessarily say the circumstance had to go out, get a real job. I know that's going to set some of y'all off, just me saying that he went out and got a secular job and he said it helped him to be able to better relate. And the bottom line was he said we have all these congregants, all these members of the body of Christ that are going out and working. They're doing all these other things, and he simply said that I was expecting them to come into my own little ministry bubble. He said it was a narcissistic idea that they should all come and everything should revolve around what I'm doing rather than me being able to relate to them and be able to minister to them effectively.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think he did a very, very good job of relating his experience and love. He wasn't condescending or anything, and I think that's what kind of really grabbed me a little bit. Um, I'll, uh, he was being real, yeah, he was being real, uh, and I'll, uh, I'll, I'll, uh, tell on myself a little bit. I can be kind of a screen zombie, you know when, when I get home from work and I kind of just want to, uh, you know, relax and chill. I like comedy, I like to, I like stuff that makes me happy and laugh and stuff like that. But sometimes in my reels, uh, you know, the Christian stuff pops up, you know which. You know I'm a Christian, I enjoy those kinds of things, so it's natural that those things pop up by reels. I guess. I guess that's the algorithm, I don't know, but anyway, that popped up and I said, okay, this guy's the algorithm, I don't know, but anyway, that popped up and I said, okay, this guy's being real and this is legit here. And really, what he was just relating is that there's some things I think we've touched on in the past is that it's very easy for us as Christians to especially he was relaying this in the sense of a pastor. But anyway, he was saying it was very easy for him when someone needed ministering to or needed guidance or needed counsel or something like that, it was very easy for him to invite them to the church or to the sanctuary and where he could pray with them. And after a while he realized it was always about them coming to him, them coming to the church, coming into the church, coming to his office. And it took him a little while to realize that and I think him having to go get that secular job for whatever reason I'm not sure he even said why he had to, but having to get that secular job made him understand or helped him to understand what people were going through when they came in needing some help.
Speaker 2:Because I'm going to tell you from experience and not from a Christian leadership experience or anything but when you've been at work all day and work has beat you up, and and you come home, you've got kids that beat you up, you've got a spouse that's beating you up, you've got circumstance that's beating you up, when life is just really beating you up, um, really, the last thing, last thing you really want to hear is some preacher who ain't really had a job, ain't really worked nowhere, because he's been in ministry since he was 19 years old and he's going to tell you, brother, all you got to do is pray that dog don't hunt. I mean, I'll just be real with you, it don't. I mean, I'll just be real with you, it don't. So I applaud that guy for coming to that realization and understanding that there's something about having that experience. Now, he wasn't condoning the notion of going out and being sinful in the world Not at all. No, no, he wasn't doing that but he understood the blessing of walking a mile in that person's shoes, so to speak.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Yep, I look back one of my favorite. I don't know if it is my favorite Clint Eastwood movie there's been some really good ones, but it is one of my favorite. I don't know if it is my favorite Clint Eastwood movie there's been some really good ones, but it is one of my favorites. Grant Torino. When he's being eulogized by the Catholic priest, he's talking about it. He goes to Walt and he wants to talk to him about coming to church. You know talks wants to talk to him about coming to church and he says I'm probably screwing up the line, but the gist of it is what's a 30-something year old virgin going to tell me about life?
Speaker 1:yeah, considering where he'd been, uh, as a korean war veteran, and so on, so forth and it's somebody that had lost a spouse and had been through all this and worked for Ford Motor Company, retired, all these things that character in the movie had done.
Speaker 1:And the priest goes and he was right, said I learned a lot from Walt, just as much as he ever learned from me. So this is not a controversial idea, but, man, I got to scroll, I listened to that thing on loop, probably about 10 to 12 times, just breaking down what he said, making sure, and there were some things that stood out. And there were some things that stood out. And when I got it I hit it and I was pulling out of the gas station, so it was on the road and I don't like to mess with my phone too much on the road, but that thing was playing. I just listened to it, listened to it.
Speaker 1:When I got home I pulled it back up again and then I started to watch the links and it was spot on, spot on, you agree, or but hey, but then there, then there's, the religious spirit got kicked up and even during that interview, that little loop, you can see the religious spirit get kicked up a little bit. Uh, the first thing you can see in the video is a woman gasp you, yeah, it was almost like a sigh of disgust.
Speaker 1:You know him saying that, yeah, and scoffs at him in a way, and the comments were well, brother, you need like one of them, one that just stood out. You're like I know this. I don't know the exact person it is, but I know the personality. We've dealt with it over and over. Well, brother, you need to check yourself, because the Bible says the requirements for a pastor are clearly spelled out, and this and this and this and this. You're missing the point Big time. The point is, it's just like you talking about theI remember the one post where you were talking about being able to feel more with God out in a fishing boat. Oh yeah, out fishing in church on Sunday morning. Now the whole thing is— the context of it, really, the spirit of it was learn how to get alone with God. Right, and oh boy, now fishing is bones, is idle.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And you're God.
Speaker 2:Someone had piped up and made the comment that if you'd rather be fishing on Sunday morning than in church worshiping God, I'd rather be in church on Sunday morning worshiping God than in any boat fishing, or something like that. Yeah, and I made the comments in just simply plain language I feel God's presence in a fishing boat more than I do in most churches on Sunday morning. And that person replied to me well then, fishing's your idol, church is yours. And I replied to him no more than church is your idol. Because my comment was not to belittle anybody, but to simply show that number one, you can worship God anywhere.
Speaker 2:You are Number two if you're going to church on Sunday and you're really not in it and you're not feeling God's presence, if you're just there because it's Sunday morning, then you might as well be in your boat fishing, because you're not accomplishing anything and no one's getting anything from you and God ain't getting nothing from you either. Amen to that. So, once again, church becomes the idol, because you know I got to go. But oh yeah, there was some religious spirit stirred up on that one real quick. You can find God anywhere you want.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and so, just like with your post, when you made that Lord, that's been five, six years ago. Yeah, now it seems like about six months ago, but it's been a minute and the whole thing was God was a pastor of a church, he was a pastor. We won't say names.
Speaker 2:I know him personally. He's a good friend, he's also a snitch. We get our shots in on each other every now and then. Yeah, he's also a snitch.
Speaker 1:And guess what OC Dub don't like? This is just C Dub. This ain't Bones. Oc Dub don't like a snitch, nodub don't like a snitch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't like stitches ain't enough snitches getting stitches in the ditches don't, don't, let me a snitch, not even the, not even the dry ones. The whole thing is is somebody willing to sell you out, to make themselves look good? And that, right there is. That's Judas. That's that same spirit. And not only that, it's Judas trying to make himself look like he's in the right, and guess what. And not only that, it's Judas trying to make himself look like he's in the right. Yeah, you know. And guess what? Judas didn't just sell out Jesus, he sold out all the apostles, he sold them all out. You know? That's the whole thing about that. I'm wondering, you know? There's this point in time where Peter's running and hiding. He found out what happened. Holy Spirit ain't hit Peter yet. Jesus ain't appeared to Peter yet I kind of wonder. You know Peter still had his sword. Who knows? I've never even thought about this.
Speaker 2:I'm just thinking out loud. I wonder if maybe Judas maybe going to hang himself.
Speaker 1:I'd had just as much to do with worrying about getting caught by Peter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, outrunning the sons of thunder. Yeah, yeah, who knows, who knows Could be. Yeah, outrunning the ass whooping you know, yeah, wouldn't be the first. Yeah, outrun an ass whooping you know, yeah, wouldn't be the first. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Yeah, just a thought. But back on target here. You know that did stir up some religiosity, but this idea, what you were talking about there with, like, the church, it goes right back to that idea of, you know, the leaves versus fruit. Now, one thing I thought about after we did that on our last episode is it's hard to find a tree that bears fruit without having leaves. Yeah, but it's easy to find trees that have leaves. It's easy to find trees that have leaves with no fruit Right, a lot easier. So we're not necessarily knocking the leaves, the activities, the things you're supposed to do, but we are knocking the fruit. You know the fruitlessness and that's something that we check ourselves daily, multiple times a day. You know in our own lives, because I can find myself going through the motions in prayer and it's good in the way that you build habits, but you got to be careful not to depend on the habit. You have to get into the intent of why you're doing that well, it was.
Speaker 2:It's james right to talk about.
Speaker 1:I will, yeah you show me your face without your works.
Speaker 2:I will show you my faith by my works it was interesting there in that discourse is a lot of us, um, a lot of us look at that discourse and think that james is talking about quote-unquote works, meaning the works of the law, as in as it pertains to, uh, salvation and and being righteous, which is, which is not true, because we already know that you can't be righteous through the law. It's impossible. So I got to doing a word study, got to do a little deeper dive and what I found out was that what he's talking about when he talks about works, he's talking about the deeds and the acts that come from regeneration. Absolutely Is what he's talking about which? That's leaf, which is very, very good, and so that's exactly what James is saying is I'll show you my fruit and my leaf, so to speak, which is I don't find any problem with that at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a summary of. I wasn't thinking about this when I said that, but that's the same thing. You claim to have fruit and you have no leaves. It's got to be dried up fruit or something like that, and the leaves have already fallen. It's just some stuff that's dried up and hanging. The gist of James is y'all talking about it, but what you really doing? You like to proclaim you're born again. You like to proclaim you're born again. You like to proclaim you have faith. And is it all internal? Because I don't see a big difference here. Right, you know that's something to be said about that.
Speaker 2:And it can be internal, but at some point in time it has to spill out into the flesh.
Speaker 1:But at some point in time it has to spill out into the flesh. I will say this we need to be careful in our you know you've talked before about we're fruit inspectors. You know that phrase. We need to make sure that we are led by the Spirit and we're discerning enough and that we're humble enough, and this is one of those things, like what that pastor was talking about being able to relate. We need to make sure that we're not misjudging the fruit of others because it's not cookie cutter to ours, right, and that's what I found myself doing quite a bit, and that's a big reason why most of what I mean you see us on YouTube, you hear us on wherever you're listening to your podcast, but a vast majority of what we do that is actually ministry is one-on-one with people in environments where they're not going to step foot into a church, right, and that's going to look different depending on where you're at.
Speaker 2:Right when we get to a point where we're not relating or we're comparing fruit. I think comparing fruit and inspecting fruit are two different things and we need to stay away from the comparing of the fruit. So when we get to the point where we're comparing a fruit, then we're we're not, we're not taking into consideration what that person is doing, what they're called to do, what their purpose is, things of that sort, like you said, it becomes cookie cutter and your fruit becomes the standard of fruit to which all fruit is measured by, and that's not correct at all. I like 2 Corinthians, chapter 1.
Speaker 2:I think it started about verse 3. It said Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble with the comfort that we ourselves are comforted by God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. And the scripture goes on to say what's being written there is we're allowed to go through things. We suffer through things and not only suffer. Sometimes we actually enjoy things. But our experiences can always be used as a way to relate and understand someone else and and use that experience as a, as a, as a stepping stone or bridge that person, rather than a a way to compare each other and and and and divide each other further apart.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, Paul said in one of his letters that we should not be judging ourselves according to other, you know, comparing ourselves one to another. He he, he said said the goal is Jesus. Right, that's our standard. The goal is the word, the logos, the living word, jesus Christ. The goal is to be led by that example and also we have the standard of the written word as well, and which is very plainly written out. It's kind of like what we talked about with the manna and the tablets of law. They're both necessary.
Speaker 1:You know jesus as the living example, the living word, walking it out. But also so we don't get goofy, and so we don't rely on our own experience although our experiences are valuable, so we're not trying to make up our own doctrine as we go. That written word is vital and especially if you're in tune with the Holy Spirit, if you're going down the wrong track and you're getting in that word, it will not take long for you to get convicted and put on the right track while reading that Bible. I know because it happens frequently, yep.
Speaker 2:Jesus talked about his relationship with the Father. He said I am in the Father and the Father is in me. He says I know the Father and he knows me. As a matter of fact, if you know me, you know the Father. And it took me a long time to understand that deeply, because what Jesus was saying really is, if you, if you know me and my nature and my character, him, because we're the same. And that really that smacked me in the back of the head one day, because I realized that the God of the Old Testament to me was different than Jesus in the New Testament. And Jesus was trying to tell me no, that's not the case. And basically, what I had to understand is I had to go back and kind of reread the Old Testament, change my focus and look for God in the Old Testament instead of looking for me in the Old Testament, start looking for God instead of trying to find myself in all the stories. And that helped myself in all the stories, and that helped.
Speaker 2:So Jesus also goes on to say, though, talking about the spirit of truth and all those things, says you know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you, and so on and so forth. So Jesus is promising that Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, will be in us, holy Spirit will be in us. So if Jesus and the Father have that relationship, he's promising that same relationship between us, he and the Father. So we should start to at some point, we should start to mirror and mimic that image in some way, and I think the further we go in that relationship, the deeper we get with him, the uh, more likely that is to happen. Um, but it's going to come through through walking it out, through our experiences.
Speaker 2:Uh, whether it's you know at work with other people, the way we interact with other people, all those things that affect us and interact with us on the outside, all those things can be used as tools to relate to other people in our, in our quote unquote ministry. Like Walt said, what's a 37 year old virgin, you know, going to teach me about anything? And that is the worldly view from a lot of folks you know with Christians. What's this Christian going to tell me? Who's been in church all his life and you know hadn't really done anything bad, which is not a license to go do something bad so you can get to know somebody. That's not what I'm saying, but that's where God allows things.
Speaker 2:I had a friend of mine who were in a life group at one time and we were sharing our testimonies how we grew up as kids, where we'd been in our young adult life and stuff like that, how we got saved, and it was very interesting to hear everyone's salvation story and whatnot. And one of the young ladies she was probably just a few years younger than me, but she goes y'all is very interesting me. But she goes y'all is very interesting. Says y'all have all these stories, all these things.
Speaker 2:I got saved at a very young age, like 10 years old, and have been a Christian all my life and have grew up in a Christian home, went to Christian school, went to a Christian college, you know, work for a church and you know, says I don't have any of those stories, I don't. And she literally asked the question how do I relate to somebody? It's like, hmm. So we had to explain to her because the opposite of this coin is true is that those people can relate to others too, because number one God is real and God can shelter and protect people too.
Speaker 2:She's a good example of someone who has lived a very noble life, a good life, a noble life, a very noble life, a good life, a noble life. So she has a very good testimony of how God has sheltered her, kept her, protected her and so on and so forth. So there is good testimony there. There's ways that a person can relate. But I also understand what this guy was trying to say on his reels too, that it's nice when Christian leadership have that secular experience and they've been through the fire.
Speaker 1:Well, you mentioned something earlier on when we were talking about this clip that it never says why, all of a sudden, he wasn't the pastor of a church anymore. Never says why, but I'm going to tell you why. It's for the very fact that he could be able to say what he said. It's the very fact that he legitimately wanted to minister. If you legitimately have the desire, but there's something hanging you up, he's going to cause you to walk a path to where you can be better fitted to do it his way rather than the way that man trained you to do it.
Speaker 2:He didn't say why, but it was for such a time as this Exactly. That's why I remember a period where, man I was, I was going through stuff and I was losing my job. I know I was on, I know I was on my way out and everything. And I remember being. I remember those years when we were churchy and those things and I remember how we would talk about. If the Lord wants me to lay this down, I'll lay it down. I would do this. We promised a lot of stuff, god. At least I did anyway.
Speaker 2:But I remember sitting on my couch in the living room with my head in my hands going Lord, I'm sorry, I don't have the faith for this. So you do what you got to do, but my name's Bennett and I ain't in it because I don't have the faith for it, and I was losing my job and I said you're going to have to do something with this house because I can't keep it. And I remember the Holy Spirit just kind of whispering in my ear. You didn't think giving up your house would be this way, did you? And when everything got silent, what I remember thinking was we talk about I would sacrifice this for the Lord, I sell my house and I go do this. Well, when God says, no, I'm going to foreclose your house and let's see how good you look in the church, then let's see how good the choir speaks about you. Well, look at that, he got his house full closed on. He can't even make his house payment. That's not being a very good steward of God's money.
Speaker 1:See if you still praise me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And to see if he's still praising you. Because I remember having all of those little voices in my ear at the same time going man, what are they going to say about you? What are they going to think about you? Is in my head at the same time. Going man, what are they going to say about you? What are they going to think about you? Are you still going to praise God? Are you still going to do that? And I just remember thinking you know, whatever you got to do, you got to do Lord, because I can't do it. And in just a few minutes the phone rang and I got offered a job. It was just that simple. I never cried so hard in my life.
Speaker 1:That's your, that's your. Uh, joe, where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? It's? You realize that you say a lot of things like Joe. Oh, if I could plead my case. And about the time, god shows up, starts talking to you Once you get quiet enough to listen and you don't have the answer. But he does.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he got the answer.
Speaker 1:And if you'll get in line with that answer, then it's amazing how things work out.
Speaker 2:I was broke, not just financially, which I really wasn't financially broke. I said this before. We had checks showing up in the mailbox from places that either owed us money or we'd forgotten about, and just god was paying the bills. But I I knew that I had lost my job and I didn't have another job lined up. That meant that I wasn't gonna be able to make, I wasn't gonna be able to make, house payment for very long. Um, but, like I said, a few minutes the phone rang and the person at the end said hey, you interviewed with us a few weeks ago. Did you still want this job? Because we can hire you now. Yesterday I was like, oh man, yeah, I'm still at that job. Oh man, yeah, I'm still at that job. But the gist of the story is, man, when you're broken, when you're down and out and you're broke and you've kind of gotten out of God's way, well, that's how God gets you out of his way really is, you've got to let yourself, be broken and it works.
Speaker 1:Hey everybody, thanks for listening. We're going to pick this up next episode and get into what it means to sacrifice. You can always check us out on Wofoyoorg or subscribe on Apple Podcasts, spotify or all the way to check out our YouTube channel. Remember folks, if you're going to grow, you've got to Wofoyo. Get in the word for yourself.