The WOFOYO Podcast
The WOFOYO Podcast
Seeing God Beyond the Filter
We continue our exploration of Carl Jung's statement about organized religion protecting people from direct experiences of God, examining how leadership positions often reveal our spiritual readiness.
• Leadership requires independence, yet God calls us to codependence with Him
• Positional leadership is the weakest form - true leadership is about influence, not title
• Religious systems can become idols when we begin "worshiping the filter" rather than God
• Biblical pattern shows transformative divine encounters often happen in isolation
• "Be feral in Jesus" - pursuing God authentically beyond institutional constraints
• True spiritual knowledge comes from direct experience, not secondhand information
• Your sphere of influence indicates where God may be calling you to lead
• Leaders must avoid "collecting people" and instead recognize they belong to God
Get in the Word for yourself. #wofoyo
Hey everybody, welcome to another edition of the WoeFoYo podcast. We are going to be continuing our discussion which started last episode, and in that episode we started off discussing philosopher Carl Jung's statement that one of the main functions of organized religion is to protect people against their direct experience of God, and we talked about Moses and him wanting to see God in God's glory. But in truth, moses wasn't ready, the people weren't ready, and so he got to see God's back and what he came away with was the law, which was a system of worship. So one of the reasons that barrier is there is as a filter to protect us, but it also can be a hindrance. So we're going to pick it up, talking about one of the things that can reveal that you're not ready, as you think you are, is being in a leadership position. So let's saddle on up and get into the episode. Wofo yo.
Speaker 2:I still struggle with getting mad, I still struggle with fixating on things, and a lot of it has to do. I really thought about this a lot over the weekend. A lot of it has to do with having a leadership spirit. I think probably a lot of leaders do this a lot. I know for myself.
Speaker 2:I'm a very independent person, especially as a leader, a leader of my home. When I was a leader in the military, different things like that I just did. I just did things. I just made it happen and I didn't turn to the left or to the right to ask for help. I just did it. And that's kind of what's expected of you as a leader, especially in the military. You're not expected to ask a lot of questions and get a lot of guidance, totally contrary to what the relationship that God wants with you. God does not want an independent person. He does not want an independent person to deal with. He wants a very codependent, but he wants you to be codependent with him. That's the issue, and I think that's the thing that God is really working with me right now is getting me to a point where I lean on him more than I do my own skill set, if you will.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I'm learning is I hadn't even thought about the leadership aspect of it. There are certain leadership strike that there are certain positions in my place of employ I've been encouraged to pursue and, let's be honest, it's $30,000 a year increase and nothing seems worth the headache. Where I'm at high intensity environment there are some lulls, but boy when it's hot, boy when it's hot. Now I get to be interacting with people, leading people, training people and a lot of times doing it outside, which man I grew up outside, something natural about it, as opposed to being a leader, which I said man, you're not leading, you're behind a desk answering a phone all the freaking time. And then you got people trying to push on you to do this and do that and do that. And I'm like you know leadership takes different forms and if anybody's ever read any John Maxwell books on leadership, positional leadership is the weakest form of leadership. The only reason people will do what you say is because you have a position of authority rank. That being said, one of the things he's been dealing with me about, because I'm like you, I would rather go out and just do it, but one of the things that I'm getting ready to step. I've stepped down from three leadership positions outside of work and I'm getting ready to step into one singular leadership position that will lead to some bigger things in about seven or eight years. That will lead to some bigger things in about seven or eight years. But one thing I'm learning is that wanting to do it yourself, I'll just do it will wear you the hell out and it will make you disappointed in people. And so one of the lessons that God has been teaching me over the last couple of years now is that and really stressing it by people that have no idea just come up, start talking to you.
Speaker 1:The Lord says, okay, I'm listening and they're, they're right, and it's weird. I'll be honest, lord, you somebody look like you stepped out of white trash trailer park and they'll read your mail and you think you've got it all together. Oh, buddy, the guy says you've been taking too much on yourself. You need to start working with people and teaching people and training people. I'm like you're not supposed to bear that alone. You need to surround yourself with people that are willing to work. And I'm going, hmm, because the most controlling church that we had you and I both attended services there that we had went to and checked out. I'll give it this.
Speaker 1:The pastor of that church told me something very, very, very correct. I'm taking it to heart. Still ain't bringing that joke or no tea, but no, he told me. He said the problem with you is that there's a lot of things that come easy for you and he says when it doesn't come easy for other folks, you don't understand and you have trouble showing the love of God to those that don't do it as easy for you and a lot of people it don't come as easy for you because it comes easier for you than most. Very fair and accurate assessment. I kept it in the back of my head. You know as much as I disagree with a lot of the stuff that went on on that. That dude was accurate and you know what they do a hell of a food drive for people in need. So you know kudos to them.
Speaker 1:That being said, I found this thing that I'd sent you another video earlier in the week and you talk about getting a little bit out of balance on this thing. It's there to protect you. It's there. Paul talked about that. The law was a schoolmaster. That was there. So this law system, this Torah system, this tabernacle in Paul's case, temple worship. It was there as a schoolmaster to bring him to Christ and also to expose his own weakness. He eventually has this thing where he meets Christ.
Speaker 1:And so in modern times we have the church and we have different ways of doing it. Believe me, being raised roman catholic got to see some different. I appreciate, appreciate, I do. I really appreciate the sentiment echoed by some of the things that God was talking about. But on the other hand, I I'm going to talk about the danger of that. I sent a video and I thought the idea was pretty neat and it was either an Eastern Orthodox or some kind of Eastern Catholic it was talking about do you have a stage or do you have an altar? That's a hell of an idea. Where's your focus at? And he really could have left it at that. Yeah, he could have. He could have left it at that and that would have been a great video.
Speaker 1:He would have made his point right there, yeah, and he said with with the stage, you get entertained, everybody feels good, everybody's worshiping. But he goes and says every church pre-1500s he goes, everybody faced the altar, even the priest faced the altar, even the priests faced the altar. Well, then they had some changes where they let the priests face the congregation to address the congregation, but then he starts worshiping doctrine. Now I will say this Attention to God, attention and being intentional in every aspect. Now, for that group, somebody who's been in it what you're taught is that everything has a meaning, every movement has a meaning. It's a ritual. It's a ritual is what it is. In that ritual, every movement, every word, every action, even the things that you're doing it with, whether it's communion host, whether it's the altar, whether it's the big crucifix on the wall, it all had a meaning. It's so similar to the way the tabernacle was set up. But we do our mass this way because it symbolizes this point. And then we do this because it symbolizes this, and we do this because it symbolized this, and we do this because it symbolized this.
Speaker 1:Now there is a lot of attention to detail, to where the sincere believer, if you ever get to that point, to where you can focus on God intently through all that and understand the meaning of all that.
Speaker 1:Through all that and understand the meaning of all that, then you get to a point where you're able to make all of your actions dedicated to God and then you understand why people were willing to build these great cathedrals that took years to do and look as amazing architecturally as they do. Every carpenter, every person that was willing to carve an image, or carve a banister, or carve any of the woodwork, or when you were doing the cutting of the stones or any of this other stuff, it was all dedicated to God. I think there's some value in that. However, let me tell you, if you do not reach that level of dedication, what you're doing is a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Reach that level of dedication what you're doing is a bunch of mumbo jumbo. I've met a few that were able to achieve that focus and that intent Some of the most beautiful people I've ever met. So I'm not going to say that it's not possible. I've met a lot more that went through the motions and it didn't really matter one way or another.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there, my takeaway, as I watched the video and and and tried to understand some things, come, like you, you could. You could have mentioned um stage or an altar and and I'd have got it, I'd have been done. Um, my takeaway on all that was you know, because I understand um ritual and and doctrine, and then we get into theology, all these things. My takeaway is if, if you've never read the bible before, if you've never read the Bible before, if you've never been to church, if this is your first time picking up the scriptures and reading them because you've just now got introduced to Jesus, would you pick the Bible up? And since you mentioned communion, would you pick the Bible up and read about the Lord's Supper or communion and come to the same understanding and the same quote unquote ritual that we see in our churches today? Because I don't think I would. Yeah, I would yeah, and I'm not saying that to be mean or facetious or anything, but I'm saying is a lot of.
Speaker 2:What we know today is what we've been taught by the organization. Yes, so, and you just got to be careful with that, because you got to get into the word and you said, like you said, every action has a meaning, every movement has a meaning, every word has a meaning, and all these rituals. So, once you understand what you find out with these meanings are, are you okay with this? Are you okay with these rituals? So get into the word and see what the word says and have that independent relationship with Jesus and then you'll see that, like you said, a lot of stuff that we're doing sometimes is just add-on. It becomes a stage. It becomes that stage with the dancing chicken on it. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I will say I believe that this guy was sincere in what he was saying. I believe he was Very, very much so I believe he was sincere. However, what we need to be careful about is that when we think we're honoring God because literally we are, but we need to be careful in our dedication to God we need to realize what is filter and what isn't, because we start to worship the filter, we start to worship the protocols that are in place.
Speaker 1:That might be the way that God has designed for us to worship him. It might be, but we need to be careful of that, because it got real close into worshiping the way we do communion and I sent you kind of a response saying that you know, as I watched that I kept thinking there's a Jew somewhere watching this, telling him that he's doing communion wrong. And then I joked and said his name is Zola Levitt. Yeah, rest in peace, great dude. If you've never seen Zola Levitt, you can find it. If you've never seen him do the Passover meal, oh yeah, holy cow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you want to know what communion is, watch Zola Levitt. Yeah, yeah, but that was the thing that I got a chuckle out of, because we're talking about leadership and I like the military's definition of leadership the art of influencing others to do what they wouldn't normally do by providing leadership, guidance and providing direction, guidance and supervision. I'm sorry. So the art of influencing others is what they. We shorten it down to the art of influencing others. So that's really what leadership is, and it's not necessarily a position sometimes. Sometimes it's just that charismatic ability to influence others to do something that they would not normally do on their own, and you can do that without being in a leadership position. You can do that without being a manager, you can do that without being a supervisor. You can do that.
Speaker 2:I think the trick is sometimes us, as Christians, we have to find out what our sphere of influence is. Where are we influencing others? If it's in the home, and that's the only place, then that's fine, so be it. Be the best influencer you can be. If you are influencing folks at work, then so be it. I know folks that do have that ability to influence and they're influencing work and they're using that ability to help support their supervisors and managers, because they know they have the ability to sway opinion and whatnot. So yeah, if you have that area that you know that you're influencing people in a positive way, man, bear down on that and use it for kingdom good.
Speaker 1:I was having a real similar discussion with a friend of mine and sent it to him. Guy's retired, twice retired, retired Air Force, retired VA, crusty old bastard. Love that guy, but he's a matter of fact and big old teddy bear. You know outside all the gruffness he is. He's gruff because he cares, right. And if you've never met anybody like that then then I kind of feel sorry for you. Uh, some of my biggest heroes have been people like that. You, you, you see past the facade and there's some of the best people you've ever you ever met.
Speaker 1:But I had sent him a little thing I'd recorded for another venue talking about leadership, and it echoed pretty much what you said. But it boils down to the best way to lead is by example. The way you become a leader is setting the example. The way you become a leader is setting the example. When do you lead? How do you set? You do it by doing the right thing when nobody's looking. Oh yeah, that's where it's built. And I'd also like to piggyback off what you said that wherever you're finding your area of influence is probably a really good indicator Not 100 percent, but a really good indicator of where God's called you to be Right, right. So, rather than falling in love with the idea of being an ordained minister in an institutional church and that's what God's called me to do, and all this, find out where are you most effective in leading, because this might sound oversimplistic, but we keep putting the cart before the horse man but we keep putting the cart before the horse man.
Speaker 2:but one of the things that I learned this weekend, uh, is that my youngest daughter was was picking up on on my negativity, was picking up on on my attitude, yeah, and I found out that you know she's picking up on my negativity, picking up on my attitude and everything, but she was taking it to mean that I was mad and everything because of her or because of her, had a similar situation last year with my daughter.
Speaker 2:And nothing could be further from the truth. Now my youngest daughter is 21 years old. She's still, oh yeah, she's still. She's still six years old in my own, in my own eyes. But I had to. Once I finally got my head wrapped around this and had my come-to-Jesus moment. I had to let her know that she had nothing to do with any of that, but I had to recognize that my sphere of influence was influencing her. My negativity and all that stuff was bringing her down too. But it was important for her to know and I felt I had to be open with her on this and share why I was that way, what I was upset about all these things, because it was important for her to know that.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes, though, dad feels like the whole universe is crushing down on him too. You know, because I think our kids put us up on a pedestal. Uh, they do. Even if even we think they don't, they do. Yeah, they'll put us up on a pedestal real quick and um. So sometimes it's okay if they know that, man, we're just like them. Sometimes we're just like them where we feel like the whole weight of the world is, is is coming down on them and we have to kind of, we have to put you know, push the pause button and take a break for a second, and um, that's kind of what I had to share with her and say I had nothing to do with you, kid, but I know dad was hurting, you know, and I I go through that too, just like you do. So you know, we're no stranger to the bad days too.
Speaker 1:Amen to that. I just want to finish out by addressing that. You know we've been talking about the filter, we've been talking about the idea of, you know, the organized religion, the institutional church, is the filter by which we view God. It's there for our protection. However, as you said before, it's gone a little bit to the other way. Where we begin worshiping the filter, we begin worshiping the institution.
Speaker 2:The filter has become the golden calf.
Speaker 1:Yes, in a lot of ways, in a lot of ways, in a lot of ways, yeah, so I want, I wanted to point out and this is going to seem like a common theme, because we get on this thing all the time Although it is there to bring us to a school master, we eventually got to have our own come to Jesus meeting. Uh, as you mentioned when we were discussing this earlier in the podcast, god didn't put Moses under that system. God showed Moses all that he could handle, right and for as much. As Jesus went to the temple, jesus had to go to the wilderness, jesus had to go to the mountain, jesus had to go to the cross, and he had some people with him for the mountain. But when he's in the desert, when he's in the wilderness, who's with him? Got to get alone.
Speaker 2:You got to get alone.
Speaker 1:In the end, even though he's surrounded by people gawking, sobbing, crying, he is on that cross. For a moment, he's alone. The next to last thing he says my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And and this is it is finished, into your hands.
Speaker 2:I commit my spirit and how is that any different from us when the weight of the world is coming crushing down on us, the entire universe is conspiring against us. Do we not say something similar to my God? My God, why have you forsaken me? You know in some way, shape or form, lord, what are you doing? I'm blaming you. All these things it's basically why hast thou forsaken me?
Speaker 1:I just want to encourage people, though, that there is a biblical pattern, which we've covered many times, that although there is the filter that, as your hunger for God deepens, then it's time to get alone. From time to time and I know that there are people in prominent ministries will tell me I'm dead wrong and, man, if they had authority over my soul I'd be worried. But, elijah, they go. Oh, that's what you. You know. We're called to be a community, yes, but there's times you got to go on walkabout, you got to go alone because it has to reach that point, like with moses and the lord. Well, let me see how much I can of you, and if it kills me, it kills me. David and that tabernacle of David when he said not the proper way to do it, but if it kills me, it kills me, and God was honored by that.
Speaker 2:I know we can see through it just a little bit. Whether it's the institutional, organizational church, or whether it's a more free or freer walk with the Lord in the wilderness, or whatever the case may be, bottom line it comes down to this You'll be, you'll be, a slave to whichever you choose. Yeah, which is you know. I say slave. You'll be subject to whichever you choose, which is, I say slave. You'll be subject to whichever you choose. If church is where you're called to be, then go there, stay there until you're called out of it and be the best subject you can be, be all you can be and know that that's what God has called you to do. If God has called you into the wilderness for a period, go, be wild and be free, be feral, just go. But the bottom line is it comes down to you can be as free as you want to be inside God's word.
Speaker 1:When you get called out of the wilderness, you're not free from the word Right, right, you step away from the form and you know we mentioned earlier, like the Catholic and the Orthodoxy and all that. But if you don't think, your church that you go into ain't got a system that they worship. Sing power in the blood during offering. Sing just as I am at communion rather than at the altar call.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a. I seen, I seen a slogan the other day and it just be feral. It's a slogan and when I saw that I thought, man, what a what a motto to be feral. And the idea was was to be if we can learn to be feral in Jesus, to be as wild and free as a weed, you know, in the Lord Jesus Christ, and to not care or worry about what people say about us, how people talk about us, what people think about us, as long as we are engaged in the art of influencing, making disciples, so on and so forth. And I think that we have good examples, like Moses, who we see, has his own flaws, but he is still looking for more of God. I want more, I want more, I want more.
Speaker 1:Even in the greatest success and greatest failure. I was saying it about Elijah. Yeah, you know he's going to go to mountaintop. I thought about you know, I was kind of mulling this over today. I thought about John the Baptist, dad Zachariah.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:You know where's he at when, when the angel visits him, he ain't that far from the ark. He ain't that far from the Holy of Holies. You can debate about the ark, but he ain't that far from the Ark. He ain't that far from the Holy of Holies. You can debate about the Ark, but he ain't that far from the Holy of Holies. And who's with him? Nobody, nobody. Him, the Lord, that angel, that's it. Because they're all wondering where he went.
Speaker 2:Why is he taking so long?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they was probably about ready to start tugging on that rope that they had tied around his foot I don't know if that's real I know everybody says let me just say that I've talked to enough jewish people. There's a whole bunch of preachers that like to say that and, and I believe that is highly suspect I've talked to too many Jews that are called bullshit on that.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what. I probably ain't talked to many Jews as you have, but I know this. I ain't read it in Scripture. No, it got pomegranates around the hem of a garment. I see that it ain't got no rope around the ankle.
Speaker 1:Well, I had to put a rope. Yeah, if you think five corporations controlling the media corrupts the media, why don't you look up how many denominations actually control the seminaries? Yeah, think that might corrupt the message or definitely filter it. I keep going back to that word, you know. Think about Ezekiel when he has his vision. Where's he at? By the river Chabar. Who's with him? He's alone. You go Isaiah's in the temple over in isaiah 6. Who's with him? It doesn't say he's alone. So, yeah, think about this. Even paul and I'm alone. What I really mean to say is, when it comes down to nut-cutting time, it's going to be you and the Lord. Even Paul on the road to Damascus, when he saw all of Tarsus getting ready to become Paul, he's the only one that sees Jesus. Everybody else sees a light and hears a voice. Right, so he's got people with him, but who is? It? Is Paul and Jesus. Paul is alone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, and at the end of the day, that's it.
Speaker 1:You're going to have to learn when to you know, you mentioned the dance and chicken. You're going to have to learn when it's time to walk away for a minute and go rediscover who God's called you to be.
Speaker 2:Jump off the stage. Yeah, get over dancing chicken. Speaking of movies we talked about before we started recording talked about Star Wars and Kylo Ren. When he faces off against Rey Rey who's force sensitive and what not first thing he does is recognize the force in her as she's fighting. You need a teacher. Well, that's kind of where things land in Christendom sometimes, when folks recognize an anointing or they recognize spiritual gifting as oh, we need to bring you under control.
Speaker 1:A lot of people won't like this. Oh well, if you pull a Bobby Boucher on me Bobby Boucher's mama and if you tell me that's the devil, I done had that happen enough, and I you know. I just mentioned some names. Old John Hagar used to talk about this is of the devil. And if you want to find out, I'll sell you a DVD for 20 bucks plus shipping and handling, for a love offering. I'll tell you it's the devil. Yes, we're going to tell you how it's the devil, but right now, all you, I'll tell you it's the devil. Yes, we're gonna tell you how it's the devil, but right now, all you need to know that's the devil. And so, in what that particular one was I remember it was harry potter, yeah. So what did I do? Prayed about it, because, man, I've been burned. Dude, I was one of them. Freak masons, the devil, this is the devil. These guys are the devil. And I come to find out that, well, bottom line is a whole lot of horse shit going around and people making money off the horse shit.
Speaker 1:If you really really if you really want to know, you're not going to find it out off YouTube. If you really want to know, you're going to have to read, You're going to have to find out for yourself. You're going to have to do some research. Yeah, and you know what? There's some things that people say are the devil. That absolutely are. Yeah, it is. There's also. There's also a bunch of there's also a bunch of hysteria. Henny Penny, the sky's falling. This person is that person and I'm going push on on. Got stuff to do.
Speaker 2:Well, there's a lot of folks that are regurgitating what they hear from other people. Yeah, without checking the facts, without doing any research, they're just saying it. They're just saying it and re-saying it because, well, that guy he says he acts like he should know and that is the depth of our research these days. And that mentality has crept into Christendom. We have Christians that don't read the Bible but they repeat everything that the preacher says. They repeat everything their the preacher says. They repeat everything their Christian friend says. The only knowledge they have of Jesus is what other people have said. There comes a point that Jesus expects a relationship. He's going to expect that one-on-one time with you and if he has to knock you off your high horse, like Saul with taxes, he most certainly will. He'll do it and we praise him for that because we need it.
Speaker 1:Best thing that ever happened to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So you know, relationship and that one-on-one with the Lord, it's not just a good idea, it is, it's a requirement. It's a requirement. The Lord is going to require it of you, and not because he's a taskmaster, not because he's some, you know, whack-a-mole God or anything, but because he loves to hear-a-mole god or anything, but because he loves to hear the sound of your voice, he loves to fellowship with his creation.
Speaker 2:I could think of a million things that he could probably spend his time doing. Other things are probably more important to me, at least in my own eyes. Yet when I'm thinking of trying to keep the planets from flying into each other and stuff like that, but yet he chooses to want to speak with me, to me and through me. And what other religion offers that? None, none. What a phenomenal God that the creator of the universe would take time out of his schedule to know how I'm feeling, how I'm doing and the thoughts and burdens of my heart. Wow, that is phenomenal. Why wouldn't we want to spend time with the Lord like that? Amen. Why wouldn't we want to see more of him like Moses.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and my thing is get me as close as you will allow, and that's where I think we all need to be. But you were mentioning something about you need to be under my leadership. And what I read I know some people rebuke me. That's fine. The same people that don't understand that the Lord of Rings was Christian allegory. Right, yeah, it just was.
Speaker 1:But I went and read the Harry Potter books. Let's see what the big hubbub about, prayed about it. Lord didn't say no and didn't say oh yes, you really should. No, I'm going to read it, I'm going to find out and there is this theme that a lot of the professors that teach this one particular class all have this one issue they all collect things, and it's you find out. In the first one. You find out that the professor that does this is the bad guy, like for the whole thing, guy, like for the whole thing. And if you want a type and shadow of the Antichrist and how the devil can inhabit a human, it's that guy. It's a really interesting picture, good, type and shadow.
Speaker 1:However, there's this one professor, the next to last one, that takes this position. Oh, harry Potter, asked the headmaster. The headmaster well, he collects things. And oh, harry Potter asked him what does he collect? And he says students. Now, damned, if that ain't what a lot of ministries and ministers like to do. I help we mentioned a guy. You received baptism of the Holy Spirit laying on you. It spoke some powerful prophetic words to me, but I'll tell you his flaw. Love the guy, but his flaw is he likes to collect people, start name dropping. I was ministering with TD Jakes and this and that, and I know this person and that person and I was doing this with that person. We need to make sure that as we lead, we're not collecting people like people tried to collect us. Make sure that you belong to the Lord and the Lord alone. And when you lead and you love people, make sure you understand that you are a steward and that they are the Lord's, not yours.
Speaker 1:Amen, yeah, definitely so that's one of the three and five years where I actually ended the program. Hey everybody, thanks for listening. We hope this challenges you and causes you to grow. You can always check us out at woefoyoorg or subscribe on Apple Podcasts, spotify or Audible, or even check us out on YouTube. Remember folks, if you're going to grow you got to woefoyo Get in the word for yourself.