The WOFOYO Podcast

The Centurion's Faith: What Army Life Taught Us About Jesus (Part 1)

C-Dub and Bones Season 5 Episode 236

We explore the difference between institutional church structures and true kingdom authority, drawing surprising parallels between military service and biblical discipleship.

• Beginning with the story of the centurion in Luke 7 who recognized Jesus' authority
• Jesus confers His authority to believers for kingdom work
• Military chain of command provides insights for understanding spiritual authority
• Leadership in God's kingdom often involves an inverted structure where the greatest becomes least
• True discipleship happens through shared experiences and vulnerability rather than programs
• The military practice of training replacements perfectly mirrors biblical discipleship
• Some ministry callings function like specialized units that don't fit conventional church structures
• Modern churches often lack the shared hardship that forged strong bonds in early Christian communities
• Bureaucracy in churches can prevent authentic discipleship relationships from forming

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Speaker 1:

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Speaker 1:

Hey everybody, welcome to another edition of the Wofo Yo podcast with C Dove and Bones. We are going to be talking about Bones. We were talking about this before. That ain't a lot of studying. The lord has showed me this. Last week I kind of sent you some messages about you know some things that we could do for our next episode, or episodes, depending on how this goes. The funny thing is we don't have to do a lot of studying to have a little bit of firsthand knowledge on this, because we lived it you more than I, and but still there there's some concepts, even with some stuff that I still do today. But we are going to start in Luke 7. We'll start at the first verse here. We'll be reading out of the English Standard Version, just because that's the first one that clicked up, not a bad version.

Speaker 1:

After he had finished all his sayings in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. Now a centurion had a servant who was sick and at the point of death, who was highly valued by him. When the centurion heard about Jesus, he sent to him elders of the Jews asking him to come and heal his servant. And when they came to Jesus they pleaded with him, earnestly, saying he is worthy to have you do this for him, for he loves our nation and he is the one who built us, our synagogue. And jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends saying lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof. So he already knew the law here. Therefore, I did. I did not presume to come to you, but say the word and let my servant be healed, for I too am a man set under authority, with soldiers under me, and I say to one, go and he goes, and to another, come and he comes. And to my servant, do this, come and he comes. And to my servant, do this and he does it. When Jesus heard these things, he marveled at him and, turning to the crowd that followed him, said I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith. And when those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the servant.

Speaker 1:

Well, so you know, in our last couple episodes, one of the things that gets mentioned is the fact that Jesus does these miracles. He casts out demoniacs, he heals people with a withered hand, heals different people with infirmity. Another one that's well known, is this paralytic that's lowered by his friends through the roof and he says son, be of good cheer, your sins are forgiven. And the man, the scribes, the Pharisees, the sadducees, they all just go ape. Who can forgive sins? Only god can forgive sins.

Speaker 1:

We said well. So you know which is easier to say arise, take up your bed and walk, or to say that your sins are forgiven. But so that you know the son of man has power, has authority on earth to forgive sins. Rise, take up your bed and walk. And he walks. And so there's this principle of having authority. And right after he gets through doing the sermon, onon on the Mount over. In Matthew 7, in verses 28 and 29, it says when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he was teaching them as one who had authority and not as the scribes.

Speaker 2:

Well, this will blow your doctrine, doctor. Now the water right here. You notice, none of them talked to the centurion first and asked him what he believed in. You know, pray a prayer of faith. Romans road walked him all through these things and I know that the issue here a prayer of faith. Romans Road walked him all through these things and I know that the issue here in this story is probably not salvation, but I think, in big picture, I think it is Because we are talking about faith, and faith will lead you to salvation.

Speaker 2:

I like the way they started it out with these elders Lord, he's worthy. Isn't like the way they started it out with these elders Lord, he's worthy. Isn't that the way we do things? We try to convince the Lord of someone's worthiness, of our worthiness. The elders say that he's worthy.

Speaker 2:

The centurion himself says, no, I'm not a worthy person. Jesus doesn't pay attention to either comment. Jesus is looking at the faith. So that gives me some promise. That gives me some hope. I don't have to be worthy. I don't have to be lying in the gutter, unworthy either. All I do is simply have to have faith. The principle that you're picking up on, though, this idea of recognizing authority. That's really what the centurion is hammering on, because to him it's pretty simple Jesus, you are who you are and you have the authority that you claim to have. You say this this will happen, and I know this because I do that in my own job. I get that Coming from a military background, and that makes perfect sense to you and me. So, yeah, I get that. That's a pretty simple way of looking at the authority of Jesus Christ and how things play out here in the kingdom.

Speaker 1:

Jesus has the authority.

Speaker 2:

We need to lean on that authority a little more probably.

Speaker 1:

One of the things that happens is, as the story progresses, as the gospel story progresses, he sends out 12 and gives them authority to cast out unclean spirits, to go and heal. Later on he does the same thing with 70. So you see Jesus conveying this authority and really, if you go to Matthew, at the very, very end of Matthew, over Matthew 28, he gives us authority Starting at verse 16,. Now the 11 disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them, and when they saw him, they worshiped him. But some doubted, and Jesus came and said to them all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you and, behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age. And I think about that because that authority is being conferred to us. That authority is being conferred to us, and I would be remiss if I didn't mention that one of the things that said that Jesus returned in power and authority was right after that temptation he's vouched for by the Father, by the Holy Spirit. He's vouched for at the baptism of John. He has to go into a trial period of temptation, self-denial, and then temptation to do it the easy way. Every one of those things that the devil is trying to tempt him to do is do it the easy way. But then he returns in this power and he demonstrates this power, he walks in this power and then he conveys this power. He confers this power to his disciples and if we're his disciples, we see in Matthew 28 and we see in Acts 2 that that power, that dunamis, the power of the Holy Spirit and the authority to do kingdom work in his name, is conferred upon us as believers. Is conferred upon us as believers.

Speaker 1:

Matter of fact, the first Gentile that is recorded as believing is a centurion. Peter has the vision which we covered not too long ago. We covered that. But he goes to Cornelius' house and as he's preaching they get baptized in the Holy Spirit. So there's that spiritual power, boom Right on a centurion, and it was a centurion that recognized that Jesus was operating in authority. He recognized that authority in authority, he recognized that authority. It might not have been the same authority, but I heard some people start saying in the last three or four years. Especially athletes, game, recognize game. But the idea is somebody was good at ball, somebody was good athletically, those that were good as well, recognized it, recognized that skill that went into it. But the centurion is doing that with authority, kind of what I wanted to talk about in these episodes.

Speaker 1:

Or this episode is, you know, when we together and faithfully attending church and the Lord was kind of weaning us off of the church doctrine, kool-aid, so to speak, one of the things that we got to talking about and we were also discussing at this time with a lot of pastoral staff, with a lot of people with titles of bishops and apostles and this and that, and prophets and this and that Want to throw titles on us which we didn't. We never did deny what our calling was, but we didn't want the titles because you just do the work and it just felt icky. It did. Well, I'll tell you how it felt. It felt premature and it felt like there were always strings attached to the complement. So that's going on at the same time but we would discuss at work.

Speaker 1:

The pastor said this in the sermon. He said the church is supposed to be doing this because it's doing this and then this. But as we got into the word for ourselves, we started to recognize that when it came to doing kingdom work, stuff lined up a hell of a lot more with. You and I are both army guys that lined up with being in the military.

Speaker 2:

It does. It lines up a lot more. You can. You kind of got to. You got to be careful too, because it can be very easy to fall into this, this vertical chain of command structure, which is what we have in the military and we see it in the church too. But we had to learn that there is this spiritual chain of command. There is a spiritual chain of command as far as kingdom goes. But here on earth, when it comes to service, when it comes to ministry, there's not necessarily a vertical chain of command, there's more of a horizontal, uh plane of service, uh, where everyone is on the same plane and and serving everyone equally. Um, that was, that was a difficult adjustment for me, because I, for me it was. It was always easy to see things in a vertical chain of command style. You have a squad leader, platoon leader, company commander, battalion commander, so on and so forth. But here in the kingdom, when it comes to us as humans, in ministry, it's almost inverted, maybe it is. It's inverted where the greatest will become the least and the least will become greatest, so on and so forth. But nonetheless that chain of command is still there.

Speaker 2:

I remember when I first got promoted to sergeant when I was in the Army. It was the 82nd Airborne Division. I got promoted to sergeant and I was so thankful that they didn't move me out of the company into a different company that they didn't move me out of the company into a different company. I was able to stay there where I was and I hadn't been a buck sergeant very long. And I had a detail, a mowing detail. I had a couple privates. I was in charge of some of the extra duty folks who had gotten in trouble and whatnot and just supervising them. And they were doing one of the Army's worst details that we can do Area beautification Edging those sidewalks with them, e-tools man Out there edging them sidewalks. And so I had the idea of leadership by example. So I was down there with an E-2 edging the sidewalks with them and Battalion Sergeant Major came through and he come walking by and he stopped and he goes who's in charge here? I stood up. I said, oh shit, that's me, sergeant Major. I didn't see him. I told him who I was, he pulled me off the side and he goes why are you down there doing that? And I said I was like well, leadership by example. Troops are going to do better. When they see me doing what they're required to do, he goes bullshit he goes. I see what you're saying, but how can you know that they're actually doing what they're supposed to do if you're not supervising? Your job is to supervise. You made that rank. You earned that rank because you already did what they're doing. Now you stand back and you supervise and that was a hard pill to swallow, but it made sense once he explained it to me.

Speaker 2:

I see some of that in the kingdom sometimes, where it can be very difficult to take upon yourself or assume that role of authority and exercise that authority. What was happening to me at that time on that detail is I wasn't recognizing the authority that I had been given. I was still thinking that I had authority over. The authority was being held over me, but the authority hadn't. The authority was being held over me, but the authority hadn't. The authority was being given to me. So we've got to be careful here in God's kingdom, understanding that all authority Jesus' authority has been conferred to us. It can be very easy to forget that we have that authority and to exercise that authority and in doing so we have a tendency to keep doing things and trying to work our way out of things, work out our own problems, and do these things when really we need to stand back, exercise that authority and let the Holy Spirit do it for us.

Speaker 1:

I had a real similar experience because I believe in leadership by example. Exercise that authority and let the Holy Spirit do it for us. I had a real similar experience because I believe in leadership by example and I'm still not 100%. There's times I think that the example needs to be shown and demonstrated. But I was a brand new lieutenant, just made that rank first, second day and we had a line where we were doing some searches part of what we do in our job and another lieutenant, a good friend named tracy lee.

Speaker 1:

Just hell of a dude. He goes hey, come here. He was also a hostage negotiator, very calculated, very compassionate, very empathetic, but very calculated in how he said things. He goes, see what you're doing. He said let me ask you a question If something goes wrong, if you're doing that, how are you going to see this? And if you're involved doing that, if we have to tone for help that something's going on, are you going to be able to tone it? Or are you so involved that you don't have that little bit of separation? Now, if I'm the only lieutenant around, then I'm going to supervise, but if I'm out there helping and the regular lieutenant in charge of that area is there, I'll go hands on. I do what I need to do because somebody's there for that principle. So I don't mind serving at all. I don't mind helping to set the example, which is what I'm trying to do, especially when around new people that are learning the ropes.

Speaker 1:

Man, you got to set the example, but you're right, there's a time when you have to lead and that requires a little bit of separation. That being said, we're called the disciple, so that dynamic you mentioned it is a little bit reversed. We are servant leaders. You have to have closeness to disciple. You're going to see some ugliness. You're going to see some ugliness in yourself. You're going to see some ugliness in the people that God calls you to disciple and mentor. Letting the cross do its work is not fun, it's beneficial, but it is a stark contrast in this entertainment culture we've fomented in the church.

Speaker 1:

But I saw more of the function as we began to be on a midnight shift and be assigned together every now and then, or maybe call each other up for a minute or two, say, hey, what? You reading what's going on in the bible and bouncing ideas. You know, I heard the pastor say this. The church should be like this. There's a dude we mentioned his name before. Uh, there's a dude minister out of grand rapids, michigan. Name was christopher bruce, first person I ever heard talk about kingdom versus church, and when he started preaching about kingdom, next thing, you know, demons were manifesting. They did not like the kingdom message. So if you're operating according to kingdom principles and kingdom authority, then there's a way to do it. Then there's a way to do it.

Speaker 1:

When we joined the military one of the things you know you talk about they break you down. Everybody who has not seen I was a little bit disappointed in basic training. What I had in mind was we were going to be in an open bay and RLE Army is going to come out and just get on everybody and totally different experience it. No, don't get me wrong, there were some intense times. You know there were. There were certain things that tell you what you don't ever want to have a drill sergeant going through a divorce. He hates you. Uh, because you're there we had one, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it wasn't well, but let's say we had one. Our company had one. Thankfully it wasn't my platoon, it was a different platoon, but we watched them get smoked. Basic training was okay. I guess I had a little bit different going through infantry Different animal, different animal. We didn't have females with us.

Speaker 2:

I think I'm probably a little bit different person too. I like to take the path of least resistance. So I know and I was probably raised this way too I know that if I can do what I'm told and be left alone, I'll do what I'm told. So that's a good motivation, that's a good motivational tool for me to do what I'm told. Hey, I'll do what I'm told and I won't have to get smoked. I won't have to do this and do that and do this. But that don't work in basic, because you're going to do what you're told and you're going to get smoked anyway. And for some kids, for some folks going through basic, that was motivation enough for them not to worry about doing what they're told. I'm going to get smoked if I do it or don't, so I might as well just not even worry about doing it.

Speaker 2:

The dynamic there is, you have to get broken down a little bit or at least shown what your limits are. Amen, you know, and misery loves company. Your limits are Amen, you know, and misery loves company. Uh, there's to me there's nothing that builds the bond between, uh, between brothers, more than shared misery.

Speaker 2:

And I've shared that in Sunday schools and church circles and whatnot. And people tell me about their missionary trips and they'll tell me about all their conventions and their revivals and I'll tell them hey, that's great, but until you've sat in a row of toilet commodes so close that your knees touch each other, side to side to side and have to ask your buddy for some toilet paper and there's no petitions between the two of you to ask your buddy for some toilet paper, and there's no petitions between the two of you and you're taking showers with a dozen other people or more at the same time, yeah, there's no barriers. So shared misery will bring out the brotherhood more than anything. That will make you fight for each other real quick, sure will make you fight for each other real quick, sure will.

Speaker 1:

and you have to ask what are the battles we fought in the modern western church?

Speaker 2:

you mean? You mean my tax battles yeah, standing up for pro-life.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that, that's something.

Speaker 2:

But what'd you lose for standing up?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, now I will say this here in the last five, six years, with the deplatforming and people coming after your financial institutions that you banked with and all this stuff, you're beginning to see a little bit of it, but still compared to I mentioned this on one of the shorts here recently. You know, finish reading the church history by Eusebius Compared to what they went through and you saw this thing ebbed and flowed and there were some Roman emperors and governors of the areas that persecuted less. There were others more tolerant, and it ends up with Constantine. But even Constantine isn't the end of the story as far as persecution, because Constantine was one of four rulers and that has to all get hashed out. But the things they were doing to these people and they just maintained integrity, most of them.

Speaker 1:

They mentioned the ones that didn't too. They mentioned the ones that broke and one of the questions was what do you do with the ones that break? How do you restore them? Big topics of discussion back then. But when you're getting compared to, oh, they're peeling your skin off, they're hanging you upside down. Let me tell you another thing. This is going to mess with some of your doctrine, some of you out there. They sang the praises of certain women, christian women, that committed suicide rather than be raped by the Roman authorities. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Speaker 2:

That's right, yep.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we're not dealing with that level of persecution. So hardship, hardship, hardship. What is it? Now you get the guy that goes out and he's ministering to the homeless. He's ministering to female you know, ministering. They're ministering to people that are addicted to drugs, addicted to other things. Now you're starting to get in some trenches and these things that are shunned, because it's like the old Christmas Carol movie where the ghost of Christmas present opens his robe and there's ignorance and want these two starving kids and O Ebenezer Schrees I want to look at him. He said I thought as much. Yeah, you know, and that's what we do, because, oh, we're all about it in theory, but we don't want it in our big church I'll tell you a story.

Speaker 2:

probably one of the best first sergeants that I had was in the 82nd, jock T McCain called him John Wayne McCain. He was probably one of the most badass individuals I've ever met in my life, um other than Sergeant Major Haney. But anyway, o'jock T, he had a different way of thinking, a very tactical, practical way of thinking, and a lot of times we have certain training events that we have to meet in our training cycle, training events that we have to meet in our training cycle, and one of those is a 12-mile road march once a month, at least once a month, a 25-miler once a quarter. He liked to see a 12-miler once a week and a 25-miler once a month is what he liked to see. If he didn't get to see it because of other training commitments, well you know, he at least made the goal of once a month, once a quarter Anyway, where other companies would jump into their training exercise and take their objective and be out in the field for two or three weeks and then road march their 25 miles back to the rear and be done with their field time. He did just the opposite. So what we would do is we would road march 25 miles into our um, into our training, our training cycle, our three-week training cycle, road march 25 miles out, hit our objective and then continue on with the rest of our three-week training cycle. And then, uh, truck back in. Uh, and his train of thought was you don't, you don't ever walk home from the war, says, but you may jump or hump in. So what happens when you're? What happens when your bird gets shot down? What happens when your plane gets shot down? According to our ethos and our motto, the mission comes first. So you've got to carry on to that mission. So that was his way of thinking. So we road marched our ass 25 miles to the objective, took down our objective and then continue on. And I tell you what doing it that way was a lot more exhausting than road marching back home, knowing that you were headed to the rear, going to clean your gear and be done on a four-day weekend. Now, knowing that the 25 miles comes first and it's followed by three weeks of hell, that was different. But he had a very tactical, practical mindset. That's the way he looked at things and I really liked it. I'm glad we had him. That's the way he looked at things and I really liked it. I'm glad we had him.

Speaker 2:

It comes to discipleship. The military taught me more about discipleship than anything I've ever seen, I probably learned. I started to see more discipleship as I became an E5, even more as I became an E6. Cause in the military you're always training someone to take your job from you. That's what you do In the corporate world. You don't do that. You don't want someone to be able to take your job. You want to hold on to your job. But yeah, we were always training.

Speaker 2:

As an E6, I trained my two E5 or three E5 team leaders. I was always training them to step up and take the squad leader role. When I became platoon sergeant, I was training, always mentoring or training any of those squad leaders to become the next platoon sergeant, so on and so forth, and we always had the standard day-to-day things that we did. But the biggest part of the training or the mentoring came after hours Sitting outside at the picnic table, especially on our deployments, sitting outside, catching a break and having those heart-to-heart conversations learning about their families, hearing what's happening with their families back home, sharing your stories back home and things like that, and basically letting them drink from you and you drink from them kind of thing. It's proverbial washing of the feet, if you will.

Speaker 2:

I saw more discipleship that way in the military and I saw it more in the Bible as I was reading it. Man, this is what we were doing in the Army. We were discipling one another. We had plenty of people that we were training, but there was always one or two that we were discipling and I started trying to apply that concept here. Now that I'm retired from the military and no longer in. I try to apply that concept whenever I can, always praying that God would give me. Just give me one person, someone that I can pour myself into will always be ready to teach and share the gospel with everyone we come in contact with. But give me that one person that I can pour into, that they can drink from me and I can drink from them and make them a disciple. And I tell you what. I've seen more examples than that in the scriptures. I've seen more examples of that in military service than I ever have in church service.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the bureaucracy that's in there in the church service. Let me tell you what it reminds me more of.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to tell you this Hold on. What I saw in the church circles is that attempted discipleship and we'll call it bureaucracy. That attempted discipleship was false. It was fake. It was based on what the elders were saying about this centurion. He's worthy, this guy's worthy. That's why you should do these things. Well, that's the projection that everyone in the church wants to put forward is we have to put our best church side forward.

Speaker 2:

I don't care to say that about you. I want to see all your dirt. I want to see you have a meltdown, like I do. I want to see your kids get on your last nerve, like mine do. I want to see that side of you, because to me that's real. And if you can manage that, if you can have that occur in your life and come out of it and still serve Jesus without feeling an immense guilt trip because I do sometimes then I think you got a relationship there. Yeah, because that's what the relationship does is. It covers you in those times where you felt like a failure. It's when Jesus says no man, you may not have done it my way, but you're still my boy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think with the bureaucracy that happens in church, we try and teach a program, we don't disciple. That happens in church. We try and teach a program, we don't disciple and we don't really know the program, because we were taught the program. We don't know that you you were talking about either worthy in the army. It ain't about if, if you're worthy, it's about are you effective? Right, and the focus is totally different. I remember some of the people we were kind of sparring with, so to speak, about what the Bible says and how God wants things done. Well, you know, y'all were in the army and I go, but you weren't and you don't know the way it was done there and you're totally wrong.

Speaker 1:

It's a chain of command. There's one general and then Edwin. Yeah, here's what I found out. There were certain callings. We discussed this several times. There were certain callings that were not garrison callings, if you were. There were certain callings that we likened them more to specialized units. They operated and complemented garrison units, but they were not garrison units. Now, they started out. Everybody that was doing that started out in garrison. But as things got developed, as people became more proficient, as they received more training and as they were recommended because of their skill, because of their attitude, because of their mindset and, most of all, just ability to do the job. First and foremost, they might have got sent to some different units. You know, you mentioned Sergeant Major Haney, who was one of the I think he was in the second class one of the founding members of Delta Force, Founding members of Delta.

Speaker 2:

He was my brigade sergeant major in Panama.

Speaker 1:

And the way they do it is totally different. Now, does it make them better? Does it make them worse? I'm going to say this they perform at a higher level than most Army units ever will, but not every Army unit they will, but not every army unit, they just. But they have different functions. You got to realize that there are some circles that ain't meant to be under the big umbrella, because the big umbrella will mess it up.

Speaker 1:

And I remember reading this book about two years ago, three years ago. It's called uh, by the water beneath the walls and is a history of what led up to the formation of the navy seals and eventually what they did in vietnam and all this. But it starts off with darby's rangers. It starts off with Marine Recon. It starts off with Army Navy boat teams. It starts off with all these different things that were happening and you had these specialized units that would perform exceedingly well, only to get misused by the folks in garrison. And then they say, well, we don't need them. See, they didn't do this, they didn't do that, they were a specialized unit. And that's one of the lessons that I remember learning from reading the book, because there were these general and I say, reading the book, the Bible, there were these generalized things, but you always had these outliers that are not sinful outliers. These are outliers that God is using.

Speaker 2:

David's mighty men.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I think we can see. At first glance people say, well, now you're talking Old Testament, okay, but there is a concept for David's mighty men in the New Testament and that's what we're talking about here unconventional forces versus conventional forces. Conventional commanders don't know how to handle unconventional forces. They just don't know how to handle unconventional forces. They just don't.

Speaker 1:

Hey everybody, this conversation is getting ready to get a lot more in depth, so we're going to go to the passing lane and hold it over for next week. You can always check us out at wofoyoorg, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, spotify, audible, or check us out on YouTube. Remember folks, if you're going to grow, you've got to blow fo'. Yo Get in the word for yourself.