The WOFOYO Podcast
The WOFOYO Podcast
To Be A Believer Is To Be A Leader
What if leadership isn’t a role you earn but a calling you receive the moment you follow Jesus? We pull on that thread to reveal a practical, Spirit-led vision of leadership that moves beyond checklists and control. Drawing from the Great Commission, Matthew 10, and the early Church in Acts, we unpack why Kingdom leadership embraces risk, faces persecution, and keeps advancing—while management alone often settles for safety and status.
We get real about servant leadership: authority looks like a towel at the table. From the chow line ethos of “lowest rank eats first” to the discipline of demonstrating before you teach, we explore how competence and humility build trust. You’ll hear how leaders release people to try, fail safely, debrief, and improve—while managers cling to control. We also talk about mentoring without the label, with a story of quiet discipleship that beat any marketed ministry program. Multiplication happens when we know our people, ask better questions, and train our successors to do it better than we did.
Another anchor of the conversation is being led by the Holy Spirit in the “dead space” when there’s no clear voice—just a nudge to go where others won’t. Obedience opens doors you can’t plan. We challenge the trap of relevance that compromises the message, and we champion contrast as the real edge of “iron sharpens iron.” Different perspectives refine us, expose blind spots, and strengthen the whole Body. The bottom line: to be a believer is to be a leader—serving with skill, risking with wisdom, and moving with the Spirit.
https://wofoyo.org/ #wofoyo
You and the law should all have to do it. But obviously, whatever you want though. Just come on down and make a video. We'll see it through to the very end. Robin Thompson and Crossroads and Capitol so stay there. Just see it real soon.
SPEAKER_02:Been thinking about this. This is something we've just both lived out. We'll be talking about leadership management, not getting too confused, but there was something that the Lord really began to put on my heart at the end of Matthew's gospel as well as Mark's Gospel. When Jesus rises into heaven, and he gives all the authority, he said, Go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe whatsoever things I've commanded you. Lo, I'm with you always, even till the end of the age. John gets a little bit more in depth about one of the reasons we're able to do this is because of the anointing of the Holy Spirit that He has given us. And then you see this fully manifest in Acts 2 by that spiritual power, by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You see characters change, you see boldness where there was cowardice before. You see all these things happen. But what the Lord shared with me is by default to be a Christian, not necessarily a churchgoer, but to be a Christian and to follow the Great Commission automatically puts you in a leadership role. To be a believer is to be a leader. Right. Now, it looks a little bit different than worldly leadership. Leadership is one of those things I read up on, but I have to tell you, a lot of what they're calling leadership books is simply management techniques. And you've seen it in the military, you've seen it uh in your civilian jobs, I've seen it in my civilian jobs, seen it in the military. I've even seen it in uh in churches, I've seen it uh different places where I volunteer my time. You have those that are managers, and they might be good managers. Doesn't make them a leader.
SPEAKER_00:Right. There's a definite difference between leadership and management. Um just by definition, um management or to manage uh implies the very act of simply uh holding on, uh simply hanging on. Uh it's uh the word manage or to manage uh sounds like you're just you're you're just organizing the chaos and nothing nothing nothing really past that. Yeah. Leadership has uh speaks to to movement, uh to moving forward and and has uh has a little bit more to it. Um and you're right, I think that a lot of the a lot of what we see in in these spiritual leadership books in in the self-help section uh uh of whatever bookstore you go to, uh have basically taken some corporate management techniques and tried to apply them to the church.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh and they don't really work. They they get you so far, um, they might organize your books a little bit, um, but they don't work so well for making of disciples. And that's what we're called to do, is make disciples.
SPEAKER_02:Amen. Now, as far as out there in the corporate world, um working for government agencies, working with different things, is management uh is that important? Plays a role. You need to have your P's and Q's together. But if you want a good contrast, just go back to last month's speech to the generals and admirals by Pete Pete Heggseth, and he was trying to, by his admonition in that speech, get them out of management mentality, the check the boxes, as we've said, and he said, and not when he said that, I was like, Oh yeah, come on now. Uh the check the box and never take a risk because that we won't promote you if you took a risk and made made a mistake. It it produces risk-averse people, and leaders by nature are not risk-averse. Leaders take chances, and they might be calculated risk. There, there's a difference between being a dummy and being a leader.
SPEAKER_00:And that's probably the the greatest difference between leadership and management is um the absence of risk. Uh like you said, management um does their best to remove risk uh and get it out of the way. Uh it creates uh security, uh, because that's really what that's really what we want in our endeavors. Leadership is just the opposite. Uh it embraces uh risk, mitigates risk, yeah, uh, but it but it embraces it and uh and presses into it uh so that uh so that we move into into enemy held territory. That's the only way you you cannot go into enemy held territory without some kind of risk. Amen. So there's uh there's probably that's probably one of the greatest differences is the absence of risk that management holds.
SPEAKER_02:So kingdom mentality versus church mentality could be summed up in a lot of ways as a leadership versus management mentality. Because going to all the world making disciples, that's automatically foreign territory, that's automatically enemy territory. And by doing that, there's risk. Uh, one of the things that Jesus says in Matthew 10, he's talking about you're going to get flack, we'll get persecuted. He says in Matthew 10, let's go verses 23 to 25. Whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next. For truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. It is enough for the disciple that he may become like his teacher and a slave like his master. If they have called the head of the household Beelzebub, or the Lord of the Flies, it was kind of a reference of they're calling him the devil. Jesus says, They're calling me the devil. How much more will they insult the members of his household?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I like how he says if you're feeling if you're getting persecuted, uh, flee and go to the next city. Uh he doesn't say stop what you're doing. Uh-huh. He doesn't, he doesn't say uh don't do that anymore. Uh he just says go to the next place, move on. Next. Yeah. Next. You know, there's there is a difference there with with kingdom. You're you're pressing into enemy held territory. Uh go ye therefore out there and do those things. Um here in the church mentality, it's more of a let us build these walls, invite them in here. Uh, but we're gonna check them, check them at the door first, check them out and see who they are. Yeah. Uh then once they pass security, we can have them in here.
SPEAKER_02:You you almost have in the in that mentality, you contrast it. This is not 100% because you got some hellfire and brimstones that don't want no part of the world and and all that. Right. But that being said, when they build those walls, what's really the ultimate hypocrisy, you're building walls to keep all the narrative wells and malcontents and all the negative influences out, but then you try and look hip and and be like the world.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So so it's useless. And I always go back to the patent quote that fortified positions are a monument to the stupidity of man. Right. Jesus said, Go. If they don't receive you, man, shake the dust off your hand, uh, off your sandals. So what he's saying is, you preach it. What you're what you're not trying to do is be cool. Now, Paul, wherever he went, was smart enough. He said, To the Jews I became as a Jew, to the Gentiles I became as a Gentile. I became all things to all men that I might win some. But at the same time, Paul never compromised the morals. And one of the things we do with our styles and all that, rather than go and see where the message takes root, and rather than go and and take those risks, you know, when when we really start to grow, quote unquote, grow our organization, what happens all too often is that we begin to look like them. We begin to look like the world we end up trying to fit in, we try and become more marketable. And we wonder why the power stops showing up.
SPEAKER_00:It becomes very confusing. Um becomes very confusing to stand in the pulpit and preach uh preaching rail against the world, uh, and then at the very same time trying to emulate the world in in in its in its doings and goings on. Uh so yeah, it's and here's the thing. Um the world sees that. Uh the world recognizes that confusion. Oh, yeah. Uh the world probably recognizes it uh faster and and more readily than than what we as Christians do. Um we look at it as as being relevant, uh trying to uh trying to fit in, and we'll we'll even quote Paul uh, you know, uh in our endeavors, trying to be the Jew amongst the Jew, the Greek amongst the Greek. But that's not what Paul was doing. Uh Paul was simply not drawing attention to himself. Uh, you know, uh and he was not and when I say that, he was not drawing attention to himself by by bucking another culture's customs and traditions and and railing against those things. He was just going into community and fitting in with that community and being a part of that community and at the same time loving on that community. Uh, and that's where I think that's where we fail the most sometimes.
SPEAKER_02:He he used the culture and his knowledge of it to get that foot in. But once he opened his mouth, he wasn't playing patty cake.
SPEAKER_00:Right. It was a forceful message. We would call it building rapport, uh is what we would call it. But I I don't think he was doing that. I think what he was doing was more genuine than what we call it the way we go about it.
SPEAKER_02:He goes, Oh, oh, you're you're gonna here, I'll I'll go speak on Mars Hill. We'll have the whole city trying to kill me. You know, it's gonna disrupt your it's gonna disrupt your silversmith guilds that are making the idols. But but we'll go over to Ephesus, we'll take care of that. Oh, we'll we're gonna address those things. He used the venues that that drew a crowd and drew an audience and those that were willing to listen. He used that, but he never compromised his his message for the sake of fitting in.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. He he knew the importance of getting them saved uh and then and then changed them.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh and I think we've got it just the other way around a lot of times where we're trying to get folks changed before we get them saved.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and we gotta we we gotta switch those gears around.
SPEAKER_02:That was our first episode. The Lord's called you.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Now there'll be some refining, but that doesn't mean that you have to be dressing totally different right off the bat and everything else that they try and all the hoops they try and get you to jump through. That's management. Right. Having an internal change, having boldness in the spirit, having that relationship with Jesus Christ where you're not, again, we're not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, but at the same time, it's a relationship that nobody can take away. Now you're stepping into leadership territory.
SPEAKER_00:Um probably one of the biggest parts of of leadership as we're talking about it is letting the Holy Spirit lead you. Um that was probably one of the hardest things um that I found out or that I that I came into was letting the Holy Spirit lead me. Um it wasn't so hard to hear, it wasn't so hard to listen. I can read my Bible, I can I can pray and those things. But um I found out that being led by the Holy Spirit was just a little bit more than listening to him and then going and doing. Um there was it was it was a little deeper than that. It was um it was allowing him to take over allowing him to take over those times when I wasn't hearing from him. Uh it was allowing it, yeah, take over the uh taking over the the the dead space. That's that's where the the leadership um well that's one of the part of the definition of leadership is the ability to influence others to do what they wouldn't normally do, uh, you know, especially in the absence of others. So getting to where the Holy Spirit is is is guiding us and leading us and directing us in those times when we're not hearing from him. That's letting the Holy Spirit lead your life, and that is not easy at all.
SPEAKER_02:Told you, and I told uh Dan Blackshire, an assistant pastor over we've interviewed him before, um, over at church down in Brandon, Mississippi. Just talk with him recently about uh I mentioned this in one of the interviews. I go now thinking back, accounting for time, probably the last two, two and a half years of my life. You're talking about those times where all you're doing is Lord, where you want me to go when you're not hearing the voice. You're just gut feeling he's speaking through that. You need to you need to go over here. And it'll be the places that the church doesn't want you to go. Oh, you shouldn't go there, brother. And you end up witnessing to people, and the Holy Spirit is using you to speak directly into the lives of people, and they will go, Do you know how profound that was? And I go, Not really. I'm just trying to be obedient. I knew I was supposed to be here, now we know why. Thank you, Lord. Because it is Him continually demonstrating that he is performing way above my ability.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, yeah. It's those general proddings, those nudges, uh, those those pulls in a particular uh direction that really have no clear indication, just uh, you know, just it's like you said, it's not the whisper, it's not the voice or nothing, it's just that why am I over here? You know, why am I here? What what's what's uh it I know I'm supposed to be here, but why? And then next thing you know, you're in the middle of something. So yeah, those are those are profound moments. They don't come all the time, but when they do, man, I'll tell you what. Pay attention. Pay attention. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:One of the other things, especially as Christians, and we have covered this on an episode, but we need to touch on this again. This is Luke chapter 22. Start at verse 24, and a dispute also developed among them as to which one of them was regarded as being the greatest. This is Jesus' disciples. In one gospel, it says that their mom put them up to it. Yeah. Not that that could ever happen today.
SPEAKER_00:Could be could be uh wives, wives that do that. Uh could be moms, it could be, oh man, like several different ways.
SPEAKER_02:You get a lady want to be a pastor's wife just because of the dresses and to be seen on stage and all that, man. I've I've seen some undercutting, man.
SPEAKER_00:And here's the thing, we'll go down there, rabbit hole. Sure. Why would anyone want to be a pastor's wife? I have no idea.
SPEAKER_02:My Aunt Barb, man, she she'll tell you, that is that is not easy. Everybody's making demands, you don't get to see your husband as much. Everybody's trying to. Well, there was there was a couple instances where like like you and I have talked about for years that the anointing was sexy, so that you had people trying to make that demand out of pocket, to which Aunt Barb don't put up with that shit. Yeah. And as the pastor's wife, she would say it to you exactly like that. Yeah, you better step off, uh, or you're about to see what I can do. My uncle wasn't having no part of it either. Now he's had a lot more gentle spirit about it and professional way of saying it, but she ain't preaching none, so she she'll tell you exactly what it is. But the other thing is all the people that either legitimately have a need or have gotten codependent because they don't want to grow for themselves because that's too hard. And they want the pastor to help them do it.
SPEAKER_00:Now, now, guess whose needs are going to be the first ones to be forsaken in that replacement. The pastor's wife. Amen. Uh so I would I would assert that the pastor's wife has to have just as close, if not a closer, walk with God than the pastor does himself. Uh, because I tell you I ain't no way I'd want to be the wife of a pastor.
SPEAKER_02:Without without disclosing anything communicated in confidence, you and I have both had these discussions with pastors' wives. It is not an easy thing to be. No, it's not. Nevertheless, when we put people upon pedestals, there's that allure, especially if it's a big church, and all the beautiful people are up on stage, and the lights and the and this and the music's just right, and to be looked upon with admiration. That's the trap. Yeah. You know, but but I've seen some undercutting, I've seen some maneuvering, and I've seen some straight-up catfights that were masked as uh spiritual hymn parties. It can get down and dirty. It can get competitive. I've seen when it comes time assistant pastors, it was the worst. Oh man, they're thinking about making my husband an assistant pastor. They're thinking about this, or my my husband is an assistant pastor, and he might be in line, you know, when they have this next leadership change of stepping in or maybe going out. Don't think that they won't try and maneuver. Oh, yeah. I'm not saying all of them, but I'm saying there's an element there. Uh now, but can you think of some other biblical stories where you had somebody in power, but the main one trying to keep them in power was their wife because they were the power behind the throne. Man, what are you talking about? Yeah, big one. Big one. Yeah, little little Ahab and Jezebel.
SPEAKER_00:Ahab and Jezebel. Ahab and Jezebel. And and I don't think that's necessarily a good picture of a majority of pastor wife, pastors, and pastor wife uh relationships.
SPEAKER_02:Um but it's an element to be aware of.
SPEAKER_00:There's there's a book, I I haven't read it yet. Um I was told about this book um by D.L. Moody's wife. And she talks about what it's like to be a pastor's wife. And it's supposed to be really good. And I've I've never well just it popped out of my mind and never thought to go online and search for it and buy it. Um but you weren't thinking about being a pastor's wife bones. Well, no, I I just well I I couldn't just couldn't find the right dress. But uh, but but you know, there's uh there's supposed to be a really good book about how the pastor's wife is always behind the scenes uh and and never never really brought forward.
SPEAKER_02:Which that can be a positive benefit, but like anything, it can be corrupted. But the the thing that I the thing I was just trying to get at was due to the allure that we put on this thing, you know, kind of like the uh what Jesus is getting ready to get in here, he said, you're thinking this is some big prize. There's a price here. And I think that allure is the deception, but like a lot of things, it can be it can become corrupted, and that allure is what corrupts. And only then do you find out, oh, that this is what this is. Yeah. So verse 25, and he said to them, the kings of the Gentiles domineer over them, and those who have authority over them are called benefactors, but it is not this way for you. Rather, the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table? This is at the Last Supper, or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves. Now he grants them authority right after this. Right. But he's demonstrating to confer the authority he is serving. And so what does this mean? I'll tell you one of the things that really distinguishes leaders from mere managers. Matter of fact, you don't have to manage. There are those that lead without having to manage. Yep. I've seen some people on the lowest ranks of the organization just step out and lead. Yeah. So don't think it's by rank. This is not, Jesus said, it's not like the Gentiles do. It's not about how much authority you can have over people, it's about who can serve. But to serve, and here's the key difference, you have to be competent. An incompetent leader will soon not be a leader.
SPEAKER_00:It'll be a blowhard. But it won't be a leader. Probably one of the one of the best pictures of leadership and leadership example that I've ever seen in the military. It's demonstrated at every meal, whether it's in the chow hall or in the field or wherever it's at, but it's demonstrated at every meal. And that's the idea, or the or not the not the idea, the fact that the lowest rank eats first. Absolutely. The lowest rank eats first, and and then the the soldiers go through the chow line in in rank uh by succession afterwards. So your lower enlisted eat first, then your NCOs by rank, E5s, E6, eat, and then your officers uh go through the through the line and eat. It's not punishment or anything, but it's by design. Yeah. Um it it lets uh it lets everyone there know the it's it's the it's the Joes, it's it's the the lowest there come first. Uh the lowest the lowest ones there who are usually last, they usually get all the hard work, they get all the back breaking jobs, get all the details, they get to come first right now. Um and at the end of the day, if for some reason the the mess sergeant didn't do his job and there's not enough food for everybody, it will not be the lower the lower guys that go without food. It'll be the the leaders. So one of the one of the prettiest pictures of of leadership by example in the military is is chow time. Also ensures that the mess sergeant's going to do his job. That's right. That's right. Because it's usually one of those guys writing his NCOER that's waiting to eat.
SPEAKER_02:If there ain't enough food, now you're answering to the to the bird.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you're answering to to a battalion or or brigade commander.
SPEAKER_02:Rather than there was a there's a book that I'm and I'm reading it, reading probably about four or five pages a day, putting it down. But it's called uh It's Your Ship, and it's by a guy that uh I mentioned this to you before about a guy took over this ship and how he got it turned around to be one of the top destroyers in the Navy. Well, one of the things he did, he noticed that the officers were skipping to the head of the line. And he goes, uh-uh.
SPEAKER_00:Big morale killer.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And he was wondering why things were so well. Here's one thing that we're doing. Other thing he did was he took time to do two things. He would go on occasion to eat with the lower enlisted and have conversations with them. And they ate first, you know, but he encouraged them to communicate freely, respectfully, but freely, and he didn't want just yes men because he knew there was issues that had to be worked out, and you're not if you're looking for yes men, you'll never address the issues that need to be worked. Right. The other thing that happened was in certain technical roles in his ships, there were some guys that were very technically proficient, that were either loan or enlisted or were petty officers, sometimes specialists that really knew certain systems, and he would have them eat with the officers on occasion, not all the time, but about once a week. They they would have somebody there that was an expert in their specialized field. The first time that happened, the dude didn't have a place to sit, so he got up and gave them his place to sit. Every other time that that happened, the guests never had to find a place to sit.
SPEAKER_00:There's a quote that floats around, and I don't know who first said it, but I I do believe General Colin Powell has said it. I believe Sergeant Major of the Army Daly has said it. Um, but it basically goes something like this if you have to remind somebody that you're in charge, you're probably not. Amen. So yeah. Uh some folks are just some folks have have a gift. Uh they're just they are naturally gifted at at leadership, right? They just have that certain science. Something, that charisma that's inside of them that uh that draws people to them. Uh it can't be taught. Uh whether or I should say it wasn't taught to them, it just kind of comes about naturally. Those people can be hard to find. Um, those people are hard to teach. Yes. Um it's even harder for them to teach leadership. Hey, I was getting ready to say it, yeah. Yeah. It's very hard to teach leadership skills because they didn't learn it. Uh it was just, it, it just kind of, well, it was gifted to them, for lack of better words. Um, much like um, much like a a gifted shooter can be hard uh to teach someone how to shoot. Um a gifted leader can be very difficult uh to teach others how to lead uh because he doesn't really know how he's doing it. Yeah. He's just do he just it's like a it's like a positive track on a Plymouth, man. It just does.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, that was one of the things, and I know you've been in this role too, is if you really want to learn it, you learn how to do it. And you think you know how to do it, learn how to teach it. Oh, yeah, and then that by necessity causes you to examine and break down, and then have to be effectively able to communicate to the person that that you're teaching what you're trying to say, and make sure through feedback that they're getting it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's involved. I think leadership for someone who who's not gifted, who just who hasn't just kind of stepped into it, um, it can be very labor-intensive. Yeah. Um, but now to the person who's who's gifted, who just kind of had it bestowed upon him and just kind of that's kind of who he is or whatnot, it just happens so naturally. Um, like I said, he doesn't know how he's doing it. He doesn't even know that he's doing it. Um, it just happens. Usually it takes someone to tell him, hey, this is what you're doing. And this is this is how people are reacting and responding. But usually someone comes up and says, Hey, can you teach us, can you teach other leaders? And then they try and fail.
SPEAKER_02:Well, one of the things about the baptism of the Holy Spirit is Jesus is enabling you to get in that mode, where you're doing it without thinking about it too much, which say which will, it's effective. Very effective. But in but in the process of making disciples, you have to be able to demonstrate. I was I always remember, can the sergeant demonstrate? Sergeant better be able to demonstrate if he's going to teach it. Because that was one thing, especially people that were visual and tactile learners. Get do this, do this, do this. Can the sergeant demonstrate? Why? It wasn't always a matter of disrespect, although I've seen that uttered out of frustration. A lot of times I'm simply not getting it. I need to see it again. Walk me through it.
SPEAKER_00:Something else I've seen is that's usually what happens in a training environment. But when you move on and get into life, um the sergeant's going to demonstrate without demonstrating. Yeah. He just does. Once again, he just does. So once again, we get back to putting that footwork, putting that, you know, your footwork to your faith, doing those things, whether it's whether it's intentionally out of obedience or or or whatnot. Um, we have the Holy Spirit now that uh that empowers us and moves us and guides us and directs us so that um not everything has to be um classroom example, not everything has to be uh uh a method of instruction. Um we can simply show people through our lives and through our daily living that we have the ability uh and whatnot through through Jesus, through the through the Holy Spirit. Um but if we're not willing to let the Holy Spirit lead us like that, they won't see it. They'll see our flesh, and that'll just frustrate them.
SPEAKER_02:Well, uh, I'll tell you a couple things that I've seen, and this is the difference between a leadership mindset and uh if you're properly discipling and you have the proper heart and attitude about it, you're automatically doing leadership things, whereas you're gonna be in management mode if you're not doing these things. You have to be proficient, you have to know your people. If you're discipling, that means somebody helped you, you got to acknowledge that that you were being discipled. Yep. Which was an eye-opener for me because when you and I were getting discipled, especially by Brother Frank, we had some people walk up to us before and go, I'm gonna disciple you. You were trying to sell me, of course. Yeah, brother Frank discipled us and never even let us know that was what was happening. It wasn't until life got real. Right. And the coals got hot and we were able to make it through, and then we make it through, we're kind of doing our AAR, you know, of these times, and we realized that it was Brother Frank and the things that he shared with us contributed directly to us being able to go through what we went through. And when we look back on it, we go, you know, we survived, it was not easy, we made our mistakes, but if it hadn't been for what he shared and what he imparted, it could have been a hell of a lot worse.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, instead of a you know, several hundred dollar course on this, that, or the other, he he shared some Maxwell House coffee. And uh that went a lot further, I think, towards helping us than anything.
SPEAKER_02:Man, we navigated some minefields due to that discipleship. Oh man. Yeah, that could have been a lot, lot worse. Um, but but you don't realize there you have to be competent, but you have to be involved. There's times you need to step away as a leader, but initially you need to be involved. Okay. And you're always watching. The other thing is you can you teach, you demonstrate more than anything you impart through your attitude and just doing and having having those that you're discipling, you have them around you so they can see. And you answer questions. And then there's times you're going to tell them, ain't answering that question. You got to find that one out by yourself. And that's the next step. And really, what we've noticed is here's where it differs from those churches, especially and leaders that have a spirit of control. You have to properly be able to gauge how your how your people are progressing. And I and I'm saying this can apply in multiple facets of life. So this is not just church, but this is this is kingdom stuff right here. And you can bring kingdom into any realm. You could bring it into your job, you could bring it into uh any kind of organization, you can bring it into business, you can bring it into your family. Yeah. But you have to be able to assess how those that you're training and discipling, how they're progressing, and when they're ready to start to go out on their own. Yeah. And that that's when it can be hard because man, it's nice, especially if if you have people serving you and it's making your load a little lighter, man, it could it can be real easy to get stuck in that mode. And we've witnessed that to where all of a sudden this spirit of control comes in. Well, I'm going to be disciplined you forever. And you ain't ever going to go out on your own. And you know.
SPEAKER_00:That's one of the one of the big differences between leaders and managers. Yeah. Um, managers don't want someone to to take their job. Uh, they don't train you to take their job. Uh leaders do. Leaders are constantly training someone to take their job.
SPEAKER_02:The biggest compliment you can have as a leader is for somebody to take your job and do it better than you did.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's I I like the way Jesus was talking here. He talks about who's, you know, who's who's the most important person? The one who sits at the table and reclines or or the one who serves. It's the one who sits and reclines, right? Well, I'm the one who's who's serving now. So Jesus is saying you've got to be able to let people see you as something less than what you really are.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And if you can't do that, you're gonna have problems. See, Jesus knows who he is. Jesus knows he is he is the son of God. Jesus knows that he is God, Jesus knows that he is all of that, but he's not afraid to let folks see him as the one who serves rather than the one who reclines. Um I think that's uh uh another big thing about uh about leaders. We've got to be able to let folks see us uh as something lesser. Doesn't mean that we doesn't mean that we should let people ru run roughshod. You know, you don't have to stand there and and let them kick dirt in your face. But it's okay to let them see uh you as something lesser than what than what you really are. Matter of fact, I think you'll you'll learn something from that too.
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm. You know, Jesus has this appearance in the book of Revelation where he's bright and shining and just awe-inspiring thing. But yet the first time he really appears after resurrection, Mary supposes him to be the gardener. You have the two on the road to Emmaus, says Jesus, they didn't recognize him because he changed his breeding. He presented himself to them in a different form. And then he was able to break through to them. They recognized who he was. But the thing is, if you're able to present yourself as less and it's not about your ego, you will learn more of what's in the heart of your people that you're helping. Right. Because if you become high and mighty and show them all that you can do and how great you are, yeah, they they sure they they start to they start to withdraw, or it all becomes about you rather than what you're trying to find out about your people. Um I would say the other thing is let them go make their mistakes, but be willing to help them, help guide them so they're not critical mistakes. AARs are critical, but you've gotta you gotta be willing to let people go out, make sure you train them the best you could. Let them go out, skin their knees. Yep. Don't let them go out and get hit by the car, but be willing to go look go out in the street and skin their knees, do what they need to do, and then be ready to get them right back to doing it.
SPEAKER_00:Follow up with them. Yeah, see if they learned anything, ask them what they could have done better, ask them what they did right. Just follow up.
SPEAKER_02:And the other thing you're gonna find is that as a leader, now I could talk about this for about four days, but as a leader, you're gonna find that you have blind spots. And guess what you find out? If you're training your people properly, if you're discipling people properly, the Lord will use people that you are discipling because you're all that, right? No. If you come in with a servant's heart, you're gonna have the Lord reveal through those people what your blind spots are, and you're gonna find out invariably those that you're discipling will have some strengths that you do not. And now the body is better equipped to go out and function. Yeah. Not stay home, have church and function, but to go out and function. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And to me, that's probably one of the best definitions of what iron sharpening iron is. Um, and I mentioned this in a previous podcast. It's one of those, uh, one of those passages of scripture that's always confused me because I never used iron to sharpen any of my knives. Um, although I guess you could consider a file to be iron, but I don't use a file to sharpen my knife because it's it's it's it's it's rough. It shapes, but it doesn't really sharpen. Um, but then but then that started to make sense. Um what the whole uh iron sharpening iron really started to mean to me was it takes someone of great contrast to have an impact on another person. Um people that are that are too much alike will not will not improve each other. They create their own echo chamber and then you'll get nothing out of it. But when you have uh people of contrast, especially of great contrast, they can be of great help to each other and they can provide great learning uh and and benefit to each other. And it's it's because of that great contrast. When it comes to iron sharpening iron, the iron that does the sharpening has to be so much harder.
SPEAKER_02:It's been tempered. It's been tempered, yeah. It's been through heat, it's been through cooling. Yep, heat and trials. Yeah, and that's the whole thing. Well, what is it that makes that other iron, you know, like we sharpen each other? It's experience. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And there's so much you could read into if you were to study metallurgy and and whatnot, that that'd be great. But the the the biggest the the great idea is that there has to be there has to be contrast, uh, there has to be some differences. So yeah, when you're when you're the leader and you have your your subordinates or those that you're um you're discipling, uh if you're able to to learn from them, you should be able to, um, they will. They'll start teaching you some things. Uh, you'll learn some things. You'll learn some things about yourself. Like you said, uh, you'll learn some things um about them. Uh you'll learn, I tell you what, I I learned things about the Bible from some of my uh from some of the people that I've discipled, just because they had a different view. They had a different, a different perspective, something I hadn't seen before. And I thought, oh, okay, well, that's cool. And then really what we found is that they weren't two opposing views, but they were uh two views, uh, two different views, two different perspectives, uh, which we can we can come to agreement on. Contrast uh has a great deal to do with iron sharpening iron. So don't be afraid of talking to someone or mentoring someone or having dealings with someone who's who's quite a bit different from you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I I was while you're talking about this, I'm thinking, you know, even Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God, the word incarnate, co-creator, goes and says about a centurion, truly I've not seen so faith and great seen so great a faith in all of Israel. Jesus marvels at a Syrophen woman who will not take no for an answer. All woman, great is thy faith and heals her daughter.
SPEAKER_00:The woman who touches the hem of the garment. You know, uh things like that. So if Jesus can can uh can recognize that, uh then we should be able to as well. Uh we just gotta keep ego out of the way. That's a big thing.
SPEAKER_02:Which is why you go through the wilderness, why Jesus went through the wilderness to make sure that ego wasn't there. Right. Exactly. Get out there and serve. I hope this made some sense to y'all and realize there's a difference between leadership and management. But I would also highly encourage you to ask the Lord to show you who's supposed to be sharpening you and who you're supposed to be sharpening. Right.
SPEAKER_00:It can be uh just as small a thing as as speaking up uh in a circle that you normally don't speak. Uh maybe you've been intimidated, uh, maybe you've been scared or fearful to speak. Maybe you thought that you didn't have much to contribute to the conversation. Uh let the Holy Spirit lead you. Ask the Lord is there something you want me to say and go for it. Take that step out there, he'll guide you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, be transparent, man.
SPEAKER_00:Be transparent. People love transparency. Uh there's so much uh there's so much genuineness in someone who's transparent. That goes a long way. So yeah, you know, if you're like I said, if you're if you're around some folks and and you don't normally speak, and all of a sudden you feel the urge or the nudge to do so, you know, let her rip. Amen.
SPEAKER_02:Hey everybody, thanks for listening. We hope this challenges you, causes you to grow, and also causes you to lead. You can always check us out at wofoyo.org. Find out how to contact us there, or subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Article, or even check us out on YouTube. Remember, folks, if you're gonna grow, you gotta Woefo Yo. Get in the word for yourself.