The WOFOYO Podcast
The WOFOYO Podcast
How Do Christians Disagree Without Dividing The Church?
Ever been whiplashed between “don’t judge me” and “you’re doing it wrong”? We trace a path through the gray areas of Christian life by holding Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians side by side—learning when to protect conscience and when to confront corrosion.
We start with Paul’s wisdom in Romans 14: believers honor the Lord in different ways, and the kingdom isn’t about menus or calendars. That means no contempt, no condemnation, and no stumbling blocks. From diet and drink to dress and platform culture, we talk about how love sets the limits of liberty: you can be free in private devotion yet gentle in shared spaces. We share lived stories of respecting conscience, avoiding manipulation, and choosing hospitality over winning a debate.
Then we pivot to Corinth, where tolerance crossed into open sin and the church lost moral authority. Here, Scripture calls for righteous judgment: not shaming preferences but confronting what destroys people and dishonors Christ. We draw clear lines between disputable matters and undeniable sin, connecting Paul’s pastoral heart to today’s challenges—performative virtue, muddled modesty, and leaders blessing what Scripture forbids. The throughline is simple: unity without uniformity, love without loopholes, and holiness without harshness.
By the end, we land on what transforms churches and people: moving from head knowledge to tested faith. When convictions are forged in obedience, no argument can shake them.
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Ever find yourself in a situation the Bible doesn't seem to cover? Do you want to make choices that won't endanger your mortal soul? Use the most trusted resource for navigating the gray areas of morality. It's not the Kelly Blue Book or Farmer's Almanac. No, you need Sister Gertrude's list of things that'll send you to hell. After her husband went out for smokes and never came back, Sister Gertrude has made it her life's mission to keep everyone from making the same mistake. She is the foremost authority on how things should be done and how you're probably doing them wrong. This four-volume set comes with charts and illustrations for determining skirt length, acceptable hairstyles, which dish to bring to the potluck, and which songs the choir should sing. Sister Gertrude even provides life coaching free of charge. All you have to do is walk through those church doors. The path is straight and narrow. Make sure you have the proper tools to stay on it. Grace can be sketchy. That's why you need Sister Gertrude's list of things that'll send you to hell. Order Now and we'll send you her free guide on harassing the wait staff and under tipping. Sister Gertrude's list of things that'll send you to hell. You're not doing it right. Let her show you how.
SPEAKER_03:And they're really not that far apart. There's there's only two chapters between the chapters we're going to get into.
SPEAKER_04:Romans chapter 14. Ask for one who is weak in the faith. Welcome him. He's talking about into your body, into your local body, and into the body of believers, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains. And here's a good counterpoint. And let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls, and he will be upheld for the Lord is able to make him stand. Verse 5. One person esteems one day is better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains abstains in the honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live unto the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died, and lived again that he might be the Lord both of the dead and of the living. Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God, for it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. Here's where it gets tricky. Verse thirteen, therefore let us not pass judgment on another. Therefore, let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. I know and am persuaded that in the Lord Jesus that nothing is inclin unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it's unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and mutual upbuilding. Verse 20. Do not for the sake of food destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for any one to make another stumble by what he eats. It is not good to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because he is eating not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
SPEAKER_03:And so there are a lot of loaded things here. This is this is some more of the hard stuff from Paul.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And it it's hard, but but but then in and of itself, it's it's so simple too. Yeah. Um and maybe I'll let me try to bring some context here. Um so he's talking about uh when he says accept them whose faith is weak. He's talking about, you know, he's talking about the congregation. He's talking about welcoming someone into the fold, into the family, into the congregation. With that being the context, I think it's important to understand that he's talking about everyone's conduct within the cong congregation. So context is important. Um so with that being said, we'll kind of jump in and see what he's talking about, why is he talking about food? Why is he talking about this? What's he talking about judgment? Um, and just like with Paul in other parts of his letters, when Paul starts addressing something very specific, it's usually because there was something very specific in that church that needed to be addressed. And it's not necessarily a point of doctrine to be made for the entire church age, but there was something at that specific time that needed to be addressed. Case in point, uh, where Paul talks, I would not uh I would not allow a woman to teach a man. Okay. Or have authority. Have authority has to have authority over a man. Uh and that's that's the uh that's the scripture that some denominations use to um to use as their basis for not allowing female pastors. Uh however, you go to another letter from Paul, his letter to Timothy, and he talks about uh uh letting Priscilla teach Apollos. Uh so in one place he says, I will, I'm not gonna do this. But then in another place he says, but I am gonna do it here. So when Paul starts addressing things, very specific things, it's usually because there's a very specific thing going on in that specific place. So it sounds like they got a problem here uh in in the in this particular place.
SPEAKER_04:Well well, I got to thinking about this.
SPEAKER_03:You've mentioned several times what a disgrace it is to have as many denominations as we do. Just is it's because we can't get along. Right. It's a bad witness for Christ. And more than that, it's just it's just something in us that is very immature. So he's talking about eating and drinking here. I was thinking back to um thinking back to Army days.
SPEAKER_04:Uh had a dude named Terry, was his first name. Can't remember his Terry Jackson was his name. Uh was out of California area. And Terry was really good people. Terry was a Seventh-day Adventist. So they would not eat anything that was considered biblically unclean. They followed Kashri, the Jewish Jewish law. So pork was a pork was a big thing.
SPEAKER_03:They also maintained that the Sabbath, the day that they would worship, would be from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. Right.
SPEAKER_04:Do they believe in Jesus Christ? Yes. And there's people that would get into all kinds of arguments. You know what? Terry was trying to raise his family to honor the Lord as best as he could.
SPEAKER_03:Best as he knew how. Yeah. So guess what?
SPEAKER_04:They might be right in their doc doctrine, they might be wrong in their doctrine, but it's not really for us to judge them when they're just trying to serve Christ.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_04:How about Messianic, Messianic believers? Those that were Jewish by heritage, Jewish by ethnicity, and then they they come to know Yeshua as as the Messiah. Well, the Lord ain't put it on their hearts, just like it was back in these situations were back in the apot the the the brethren that clung to the teachings of James, they that's what they were. They were Jewish, and they wanted to still follow the law to honor it. And it and it caused church contention. There is nothing new under the sun in this, but what you find, although there was some contention between the followers, there wasn't contention between James and Paul, there was contention between the followers of James and the followers of Paul. Right. So although there was contention, I don't think Paul wanted there to be the contention. Paul stood his ground on certain things that were very important, but he never called them not believers of all the things he might have said. The bottom line is if we have a point of doctrine, and especially um bones, you mentioned several times the way we do church is the only way we've known it. And guess what? That looks a little bit different for everybody. Think about her babysitter son growing up, and he'll post some good old timey Pentecostal and getting down on this and that. You ought not do this and ought not do that. Well, you know what? I think as long as me personally, you're allowed to do those things in moderation, a lot of them. But it's it's regarding, you know, whether whether you have a drink or whether you smoke a cigar, whether you okay, but you know what? He's living that according to his conscience. Right. He's honoring the way that he was brought up, and I respect the heck out of it. I'm not to judge him because our views are different, and my conscience is not bothered by those things.
SPEAKER_03:Now, when I would drink to excess, that's different. That's a little bit different.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Paul is Paul is basically seeing something going on here with with these believers. He's recognizing that um that these are these are believers and whatnot, but they're they're struggling to get along with each other. Um I I believe we could see that in whatever church we visit today. Um you're you're gonna have folks who who are struggling to get along. And if you if you have a conversation, it won't take you long to figure out why they're not getting along. And it usually comes down to maybe not a point of doctrine, but a point of faith. Um just like we see here. Um so there are some things that that some folks do that other folks can't allow themselves to do. Um take an alcoholic. Um an alcoholic who has been freed from the bondage of alcoholism, uh probably knows that he won't drink again. He that he's he's set that rule for himself because he knows that is an area of bondage, and if he were to uh if he were to leave that door of temptation open, uh it could be bad for him again. Um but that doesn't mean that everybody in the church or everybody in the body believers should never drink again either. Um, because having an alcoholic beverage is not a sin according to scripture. Um unless God has put it on your heart, yeah. Then let it be a sin to you uh that way. So and that's really what what Paul's saying.
SPEAKER_04:Agree to disagree on some points, and realize it might be something that applies to you and doesn't apply to other people. We just got through on our last two episodes talking about Samson. Well, no strong drink, don't don't eat any unclean thing, don't have a razor come to your head. Right. All right, these were some very specific things for Samson. And when he violated that, then the Spirit of the Lord left him, eventually returned. So great grace abounded more than where the sin was. But there's another thing about this though that that I would like to point out. Just like if somebody had a conscience that bothered them, he's talking about some somebody just eats vegetables because it goes against their conscience to eat meat.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Uh you're well within that.
SPEAKER_04:Now, if I know that that bothers them, the last thing I'm gonna do is go and eat a big old roast beef sandwich right in their face where they can smell it and all that. Right. Now, do I think vegetarians are a little bit goofy? I actually do. I can't relate. Right. But it's not my conscience. Now, here's the thing. If we're doing something together, we're breaking bread over at their house, then I should respect that.
SPEAKER_03:That's what they eat. If I invite them over to my house and I know that they're that they don't eat meat, then I should offer them that option. Right. However, they don't get to dictate what I eat.
SPEAKER_04:They don't get to come in and barge into my house when I'm by myself and say, you shouldn't be doing that because that violates my conscience. And we have some folks in the church that will damn well do that if you let them. So so there's a little bit of balance here. We're supposed to be operating in love, but he mentions that the one who doesn't eat meat shouldn't be, just like the one that eats meat, shouldn't be judging the one that doesn't. The one that doesn't shouldn't be hating on the one that does.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's why that's probably the main reason I pointed out the context here. Um when we're when we're with each other, when we're together as a group, you should be mindful of each other uh so that you don't offend each other. However, um walking in the liberty that you have in in the spirit um in your own castle, that's a different story. Uh you can you can uh you're free to walk in that liberty in your own daily dealings uh without fear of uh of committing a sin uh because you might offend someone else. Um so it's it's important to understand that I think um when you're together with folks, you know, like I said, just just be mindful. And then you have some folks who will take advantage of this situation and and use every opportunity to to manipulate and and and virtue signal and put you in a lesser place of uh of spirituality, if I can say it that way, um, and exalt themselves to a higher place. Um in those situations, you can't control that at all. Um you're probably better off just walking away.
SPEAKER_04:That that that would be my suggestion. I was whoo I was flashing back, brother.
SPEAKER_00:In those situations, that's really all you can do because you you can't you can't reason with them, you can't debate with them because their mind is made up. Um, so the the best way to take a fight away from someone is to literally take the fight away from them and and walk away uh and and go and go on in your own freedom.
SPEAKER_03:So and this looks a little bit different.
SPEAKER_04:Uh I remember the three stereotypes that I saw that would kind of use the virtue signaling. Well, I do this and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, you know, and try and make themselves seem more virtuous than you are, were a lot of the older ladies in the church, the younger single ladies that were single for a reason. Uh in the church. Because a lot of guys just don't feel like putting up with it. Let's be honest. They didn't feel like putting up with it. I wouldn't put up with it. And so that's a reason when you said what right before you said walk away, I go, there's a couple times that got tried in a church that I was very faithfully active in until the Lord told me to go. And cut bait. Yeah, and it was just like, sorry. And I remember you were around. We were over at Sister Owens one time, and I told her, I said, there's certain games I'm just not going to play. And this was this was all a game. Some of the ones that were trying to manipulate. The other one that likes to do this, the other stereotype, is if you have an assistant pastor or uh deacon or elder that their wife is telling them what to do and dictates everything that they do. Where basically you have an Ahab being ran by a Jezebel. The Ahabs, believe it or not, the Ahabs will virtue signal way harder than the Jezebels will.
SPEAKER_03:Now here's the thing. When we're all getting together, we should not let anything take away from our focus on Christ. Exactly.
SPEAKER_04:Anything. So that is what it is. And I'm telling you that's true, because when I was married into that environment, I'm telling you that's the case.
SPEAKER_03:But dude's name is Vincent Everett Ellison.
SPEAKER_04:And oh man, it was about like it reminded me a lot of uh the way he says things. Reminds me uh a lot of old uh Chico Vaughn or his brother in the way that they would hey. I'm gonna tell you the way it is. Here's the way it's going. Um some of them guys that I really looked up to growing up. And but he's saying they're they're finally calling it out. They they had a one of the things he the in this the reason this is relevant to this discussion is one of the things they were calling out was how they're praating themselves and how they're praying their wives or the uh the women in the church as promiscuous. He says when you're when you're addressing them close to a prostitute, you are causing the focus not to be on Jesus Christ in your church. And then he started telling how they did it when he was growing up. And he said, any woman that got on stage, so we wouldn't be looking at their figure, he said they had ropes. That's the reason they had ropes. Now, is that is that necessary for everybody? No. This is a perfect example, though, of what we're talking about. To keep that from being a stumbling block, that was their method that they used. The best method is just not to be lustful, but also there has to be a little bit of common sense with that and not to dress women up and as well as men not wearing pants so tight that you can see your junk through your pants, or women that are uh in the praise and worship team that are wearing them uh long sleeve bodysuit t-shirts that are so tight that you can tell when the air conditioning's on.
SPEAKER_03:Yep. That's a little bit of respect for yourself, you know.
SPEAKER_04:And don't get me wrong, when you're out in public, if you've been working out at the gym and you want to show off that I look a little bit better, I feel a little bit better by myself, just be tasteful.
SPEAKER_00:Uh you know, workout clothes belong at the gym. Yes. To and from the gym. Yoga pants ain't supposed to be in church. Yeah, yoga pants don't belong in in church. Um and well, since we're on this rabbit trail. Um that is something that has uh really amazed me uh to the point where it disgusted me a little bit too. Um the the degree in which uh women wear leggings um in today, today's society. Leggings go everywhere. And it's like, you know, I get it, they're probably comfortable. That's what I've that's what I've heard. They're just really comfortable. Yeah, but number one, it's it's lazy fashion. I mean, if you're gonna go running or you're going to the gym or something, I get that. But when that's your date attire, uh, you know, that's your going out attire. Um, and that that's that's lazy. It's trashy. I like that too, yeah. It's trashy. It's trashy.
SPEAKER_04:Uh you know, and some people like their women just a little on the trashy side, as the old country song goes, but that's not virtue, folks. No. So I I remember one one of the things that just blew my mind. I was engaged and had just started attending, and I know the Lord called me to go to this church, uh, up around Marion and uh just north of there. And there's one of the deacons, beautiful girl back from college or something. It's right around Christmas time. Well, hey, it's good to see you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_03:2021. And he gives her a hug.
SPEAKER_04:And I wasn't trying to notice, but it was impossible to know not to notice that she had on some black pants so tight that you could see her black phone underneath, and the light was shining through the pants onto her butt cheeks.
SPEAKER_03:We we don't wear that out in public. That that's just not a good witness.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Those things, those are some things that you you just gotta take a moment to think about it. Uh, and and I get it, you know. Maybe maybe some folks would think that well, you man, you guys, y'all are men, y'all don't really have the authority to to to speak on women's fashion like that. Well, if that's what you think, maybe then okay. I'm not gonna argue with you. However, I will tell you, as the father of three daughters, um, and I've had this talk with all three of my daughters at at what at some point in your life. Um, I know you think it's innocent uh and everything, but the people who are looking at you are not looking at you innocently.
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_00:Um if you want to here's a here's an interesting test for somebody. Put your cell phone in your back pocket. Uh or or any if you got a way to do so, whether it's leggings or jeans or whatnot, put your cell phone in your back pocket, point the lens outward and turn the video on and see who's looking at you. You'd be surprised. You'd be surprised how how many people are looking at you, see how many people turn around and follow you. You'd be surprised. I bet you get creeped out uh by what's going on behind you that you don't ever see. Yep. Because, well, the world is uh the world's an evil place.
SPEAKER_04:There's there's a lot of predators out there.
SPEAKER_00:A lot of predators out there.
SPEAKER_04:It helps you to it helps you if you understand how predators think and what they will try and do, and that's the best way to negate a predator.
SPEAKER_03:As Paul said, we are not ignorant of his devices. By no means. So the other Bible thing.
SPEAKER_04:Well, let me just say it. You have naive or divorced women that will encourage their daughters to wear that as a way of revenge to the dad.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Or they're just clueless, or you have young men that are wanting to date them that are pussy whipped.
SPEAKER_04:And that that is what it is. I don't know a better way to say it.
SPEAKER_00:Mothers that uh letting their children live out the lives there that they can't live out vicariously through them.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Which kind of sets us up really good for 1 Corinthians.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So 1 Corinthians, Paul gives his introduction. This is chapter one. I give thanks to my God. This is verse 4. I give thanks to my God always for you, because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus. That in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. So he's saying there's a fellowship. And also this Corinthian church is materially and as far as spiritual gifting, they are in abundance. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:This is a resource-rich church and a spiritually rich church.
SPEAKER_04:You you know, now that given what we were just talking about, uh a lot of that, I've not really seen that in the smaller churches. It's always been in the bigger ones. Right. I'm not saying that that it never has, I'm just saying what I've seen has always been in the bigger churches. Yeah. Verse 10. I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind in the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, I follow Paul, or I follow Apollos, or I follow Cephas, or Peter, or I follow Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that none may say that you were baptized in my name. And then he corrects it here. I did baptize also the household of Stephanus. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied in its power. And he's talking about the gospel in this, but he marks divisions, he points them out. Now, one of the things that he points out in this church, and Bones, you brought it up, is this a church that was so tolerant they had let some of the worst sinning that you could have.
SPEAKER_03:You had a dude was having sexual relationships with his stepmom. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:And everybody was saying, see how loving and tolerant we are?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So they've taken this whole thing about not judging all over into the other spectrum, but yet at the same time, there were all these divisions, which was the very thing that Paul's trying to prevent in Romans.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. This was a very licentious church. Um, where what we read in Romans, I think we could agree, was a group of believers that had very, very pure hearts and and and were were very faithful, but were just struggling to get along with each other. Uh, and and that's that happens when you get people together. But here at Corinth, we had folks that are really testing whether or not they're saved, um, because they're they're operating with such licentiousness, they are committing overt acts of sin uh it inside the church in uh in the name of Jesus. Calling it love. And calling it love. So this is this is very, very, very blasphemous, very, very horrible the things that you're doing here. Um and that's why I said a while ago, this kind of you know, kind of leads right into what we're talking about in Corinth. Um because uh the behaviors, if we're not careful, that sin nature will will still bring out the worst in us if we allow it to. We have temptation often often comes in through a door intentionally left open. Uh and so once that temptation gets a foothold, uh, you start to entertain the thought, and then the thought becomes an action, and next thing you know, you know, you're having sex with a with a step relative here, uh, and calling it love and tolerance. Um how does that translate today? Um openly homosexual pastors in the pulpit.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, um supporting and performing gay marriages in a sanctuary. Um these things that the Bible specifically uh expresses are abhorrent in the face of God. Um but in the name of Jesus and tolerance, we say, look at this, this is love. Yeah, and and and it's wrong.
SPEAKER_04:It's not, that's that's it's not that's every pastor that has a rainbow flag or a rainbow stole over their robes. That's every person that invites the drag queens in.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:We've already established what that spirit is, yeah, and you're letting it right into the church because you want to say you're so loving that you can handle it all.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you're supposed to be stopping that crap at the door.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You are supposed to be protecting pastor, same same root word as pasture, you're a shepherd. You know, Ezekiel talks about when you don't have good shepherds.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:I believe it's Ezekiel 33. Have to double check on that. But he goes, you know, the the shepherds that are all about protecting them rather than the flock. Nah, nah, no, no, no. It can be taken to one extreme. Oh, we we accept everything. No, we don't accept everything. And one of the reasons the law is there, it spells out pretty much what's good and what's bad, you know, what's allowed, what's not. But then we're not under the law, we are under grace. But it behooves us to know the law.
SPEAKER_00:Where Paul just talked about a few pages back about don't judge each other. That's not what he's talking about here in the situation at Corinth. Um, because we are He's saying, Why can't you judge? Why can't you judge? Yeah, because we should be judging right and wrong. We should be judging uh what is sinful uh against what is not. We should be judging those things, of course, it's all done in love, uh, but not not calling it love, not calling the sinful acts love, but we do it with a loving heart and a loving spirit. Um, but just because Paul said back here in 14th chapter of Romans not to judge each other, doesn't mean that here in in 1 Corinthians that we can't judge still. No, he's actually saying, why can't you judge? Well, you can't judge because well, you're so confused. You you can't judge righteously. So, yeah, you gotta once once again, context means everything. But um, so that that tells me that when you allow yourself to become entangled, like they did here at the Corinthian church, you surrender authority.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. You you've surrendered your authority. You got all the hour display, but none of the moral authority to do anything. You you have no direction, it's all for show. I can't I can't compare this to our bigger modern churches enough. You know, we we've been saying this for years now. I think back when we wrote the book in 2019, 20, you know, started in 2019 with the idea, uh, come out in late 2020. But you know, everybody talked, oh, the End Day Church is the Laodicean church. No, it's the freaking Corinthian church in First Corinthians is what it is. I mean, they they they are hand in hand, right? But I definitely see more of the behavior of the church in First Corinthians involved in your modern large Western Protestant churches.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Yep. Big time. Not all of them.
SPEAKER_04:You know, we had talked about this just slightly right before we got on. And um well, one of the things is that this all sounds good in theory, but let me tell you, this is something that tests me, uh, not as far as accepting sin, but accepting people's doctrine when I know that a lot of it don't matter one hill of beans. Yeah. I was um just driving around a couple days ago, and I go, man, I haven't I hadn't heard anything from old church in Colorado. And some of the names I don't know that they they'll have speak. But there's one. Uh there's one popped up, and I said, Oh man, he was the guy that used to run the breakaway program where all the people were getting delivered, and he's getting all the all the guys out street. He he was giving part of his testimony. He was paying he's a pastor over in In uh Denver, and uh dude named Richard Marshall. Richard and his wife Sharice were the ones that invited me to church.
SPEAKER_03:I was over at Perkins grabbing a bite to eat.
SPEAKER_04:And I say, Well, what church y'all go to? Oh man, we go over to Victory World Outreach, blah, blah, blah, blah. He said, Man, let me tell you. And it was his testimony that got, because I'd heard some people, no, brother, you might want to stay away from there. And it was all jealous, it was all jealousy, is what it was. And the church that the people were saying that they were trying to exert an amount of control over people. Anyway, he he he gave me his testimony in about 10 seconds. So I was hooked on drugs, I've been in jail, I got out of the army, got hooked on stuff, and blah, blah, blah. And Jesus Christ set me free. And he goes, We we see people set free all the time. We got drug addicts get set free. I said, I will go. And man, as soon as I walked in there, I knew I was home. Yeah. You know, and it was like, like, where you been? But I'm I'm listening to Richard preach. Always love listening to Richard preach. But I gotta realize that my calling and his calling are different. Right. So I give him a little bit of grace. You know why? Because that's the guy that invited me to church, and I grew a lot in that place. And uh, but but man, he's he's just going on some of his preferences. Yeah. You know, and you know what? According to his conscience, he's absolutely right. I have no, especially since the dude done invited me to church and the growth that resulted from that, that that was one of the things that really got me on that path was going there. So I'm I'm definitely not gonna judge Richard Marshall, Richard Marshall, because I have the utmost respect for the guy. I just respectfully disagree. I'm gonna go up to him and tell him I disagree. All I have to do is just go and be led by the Holy Spirit in the walk that he's called me to walk out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um well, I imagine 20 20 years or so ago, there's probably plenty of people around me that were simply just nodding and saying, Yeah, all right. Well, that's good, brother. And what they were doing was letting me have my opinion without giving any argument. Um, just like Paul says to do here in Romans 14. That's what they were doing. Then there were also times that people were telling me, No, no, son, you're wrong. This is what needs to happen. They were doing what Paul says to do here in first in letter to first uh to Corinth here, that sometimes you do have to call people out. Yeah, so you you kind of need to know where you're at. Uh where are you where am I at in my relationship with Jesus? Um I think the stronger your your relationship with Jesus is, the easier it is to, or for lack of better words, tolerate uh someone whose whose differences are so different than yours that you can't understand why they do it. I I'm like you. Somebody that can't eat meat or don't eat meat, I just don't get it. I mean, I don't dislike them or anything, uh, but I just don't get it. But hey, more power to them. You know. Um, but then again, there's probably people that look at me and say the same things about some of the things that I do. Uh I'll I'll give you an example, and well, this lit my wife up. Oh, man. Maybe I'll tell that story too. Um, we were in Sunday school one morning and having a discussion uh about various things and uh talked about the Ten Commandments and stuff like that, and it was kind of an innocent little discussion. Somehow we took a rabbit trail down um, you know, thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not kill, you know, and then that somebody turned their attention towards um the military and uh made the comment that our soldiers, well, our soldiers break that commandment every day in the military. And whoo boy, my wife about lost her, she about lost her religion in there. Um and whether rather than getting into the doctrine of everything, I think that's pertinent here because I was the one sitting there going, man, I understand your ignorance. And having been in the situation, um, I think I was morally justified for what I did. Will I answer to God for it someday? I most certainly will. Absolutely. Uh, but that'll be that'll be uh him and I's conversation, not me and yours. Um but there are people out there that will argue over stuff like that. Um, and those are the the closer your relationship with Jesus, the easier it is to to walk away from that, I think. Um my wife, we had to have a conversation, and at first I didn't catch it because it just kind of rolled off my back, you know. But I had a couple other people in the in the in the Sunday school class come to, I'm so sorry what he said. I'm like, what do you mean? So I'm just so sorry about we we we love our veterans here, and I said, wait a minute, wait a minute. And we had a conversation. I said, No, I I didn't get that out of it. Well, my wife did, and she about had a high-speed come apart because this guy was calling veterans, uh, veterans murderers. And uh she got over it. We had a discussion, we got through it, but uh it helps sometimes when you can lean back on Jesus and know that man, that ain't that ain't for nobody to know but me and him. Um and that's that's our argument, that's our that's our doctrine, our theology. We'll we'll we'll discuss that. So it if your relationship is with anything else, if it's with church, if it's with uh your best friend, if it's with anything else, you're gonna get offended a whole lot more easily. Um but if it's with Jesus, you'll be able to let that stuff roll off your back because you know you know where your salvation lies. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:There is a very necessary when you're talking about differentiating between these two things. You have to be led and be very intimate with the Holy Spirit, or you can go too far on one side, too far on the other. And and what can happen is the Holy Spirit will let you know when somebody's trying their best. Yeah, sure will. He will let you know when somebody's doing their best. And you know what? It might not be for you to correct them. Uh, it that might be something that they have to come by themselves. Uh, I'm very grateful for the things that the Lord showed you and I that was just in our private Bible study time.
SPEAKER_03:You know, uh it was me alone, nobody in the house, me and the word.
SPEAKER_04:You know, so you know, and same thing, same thing with you. You can't take those moments away. Yet at the same time, um, he will also point out apostasy. He will also point out when people are on BS, he will definitely call out if you're listening, when people are influenced by evil spirits. And those are all different different sides of the coin right there. But if you get into even not just carnality, but if you get into being soulish, you'll end up getting hemmed up in this thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Paul and what we've been talking about uh tonight, really what Paul, another thing that Paul's telling his believers to do is to to walk out what walk out your faith, walk out your belief. It's another thing he's trying to get people to do. Um you in Romans, you know, you've got your you've got your doctrine right, you've got your theology right. Yes, you can eat that. And and you know, if you think you can't eat that, then so be it. Because, but now you got to walk out the love that y'all have been talking about. So you got to walk it out. Uh, same way with with with uh with Corinthians, folks at Corinthians, y'all got to walk some stuff out, and I'm gonna give you some rules to walk it out by. Um, so the revelation is great. Um, man, the hours of of reading God's word, spending time with him, making all those notes, writing all that stuff out. I probably I don't know how many notebooks I got laying around that have notes all in them and everything. All that stuff is cool and it's really neat, but they really hit home when God puts you in those situations where you have to walk that stuff out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I tell you what, we I met with another group earlier today, and and we had a similar conversation. It's easy, it's easy enough to know it, you know, to have the head knowledge, and like you said, to be in that soullish realm. Um, but that realm, the mind, will, and the emotion has no capacity for faith.
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, your your faith will be shaken really easy if that's all you have is head knowledge. So it's extremely important that we have um those opportunities to walk it out uh and whatnot, because that's where our faith is is tested. And once we come through it, then we know that we know that we know. Uh, we were in John earlier today, I think it's chapter nine, where he heals the blind man, the man that was born blind. And one of the things that that we focused on was there's it's very comedic if you read it right.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I laugh at that story all the time. Hearing is a wonderful thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, because it because even the even the blind guy goes, you know, he goes, man, all I know is I was blind and now I can see, you know, it's just and they're like, Are you his disciple? He goes, Well, you want to be his disciple, you know, and there's just this this dialogue that goes back You were born in your sin, you're gonna teach us, get out of the temple. Yeah, there's there's this whole dialogue going back and forth. But what it came down to is that man knew that he knew that he knew that that was the Messiah. Um, there was no shaking him off that because of what he was he walked out. Uh he he walked he had to walk that out. Um, so you know, walking that stuff out is usually very painful uh and and and not always fun, but coming out on the other side of it, your faith is is uh a whole lot more solidified. It's it's it's stronger. Um, and it's no man with the argument's gonna come by and talk you out of that. Amen.
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