Decoding Revelation Chapter 3: Seven Churches Part 2

Revelation gets treated like a codebook for the future, but we read it like it was written: a message for real churches, real pressure, and real discipleship. We start with a simple method that changes everything, Scripture interprets Scripture, then we slow down long enough to let Revelation explain itself and let the rest of the Bible supply the meaning behind its symbols, numbers, and priestly imagery.

From there we dig into Revelation chapter 3 and three churches that feel uncomfortably current. Sardis has a name for being alive while actually being dead, which forces an honest look at reputation, programs, and whether Jesus is truly present. Philadelphia shows what perseverance looks like when you have “a little strength,” and why the open door Jesus sets before a faithful church cannot be shut by opponents, trends, or fear. Then Laodicea brings the gut-punch: lukewarm faith, spiritual blindness, and the illusion of being rich while being poor, plus the surprising picture of Jesus knocking from outside the door.

We also get personal about how lukewarm church culture can be engineered through comfort, control, and selective standards, and why repentance is not a performance but a Spirit-enabled return to reality. If you care about healthy churches, Bible study skills, and spiritual warfare that is more subtle than most people admit, this conversation is for you. 

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Transcript

Welcome And Housekeeping

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Amen. What a blessing it is to see everybody here in service today. If you're a first-time visitor, raise your hands and one of our ushers will hand you a contact card. Just take that to the desk after service, and we'd like to bless you with either a coffee mug or some cheap crap we bought off T Mill. Bless your hearts.

How To Decode Revelation

SPEAKER_00 0:53

And just a quick recap. We have a couple different schools of thought out there, but what we're trying to do more than anything, we're not necessarily trying to get dogmatic here. Actually, it's quite the opposite. We're trying to get you to see how certain thought processes work. One of the main things we're trying to put forth, though, is that you can use scripture to decode scripture. And the book of Revelation, due to some things you brought out earlier on, even when we were talking about our episodes on 1 John, that, you know, the book of Revelation, you're in hostile territory, you're going to have to decode this thing and do it in a way that people that are familiar with the faith are going to understand. And that the Romans who have you imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos won't understand. So there's an element of decoding that has to happen. But also in the symbolisms, though, that the in the symbols that are there, a lot of a lot of the things that he's saying here to the churches, at least in this section of the book, you can find the key to them over in Revelation chapter 1 before he even starts talking to the churches. We also mentioned, I mentioned, that way in case it's wrong, CW is to blame. That's what I'm trying to say for real. Is uh that one of the things you can see here is he's kind of telegraphing by his manifestation, again, all these ways that he's gonna say, thus says he who has this. Like we're getting ready to start here in chapter three, he's gonna say, the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. Well, he tells you what those are in Revelation 1. But he's also getting ready to telegraph his judgment and his prognosis, uh, if you will, on those churches and at what manner he's going to respond to them. And again, there's two of these churches that are that are not getting a rebuke, but then you gotta ask, do you really want to be a member of these churches? Because that first one that doesn't get get a rebuke, they going through it. They're going through it. Oh, I want to I want to be the church that doesn't get a rebuke. Well, okay, there's two of them that don't.

unknown 3:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

The other five do. But he's going to telegraph that judgment, in my opinion. And if my opinion is wrong, then it's wrong. It's not a dogmatic opinion. But it's kind of what you get to see. But we want to just display and put out for you that thought process so you can go out there and don't take our word for it. But the biggest thing we want you to take away from this is learn how to do this on your own. Because there is a high likelihood that the Lord's going to reveal stuff to you that will benefit you that he's not showing to us. Right. Because guess what? He was showing stuff to us that other people weren't seeing, but it was something that we could apply. And that's the last part I wanted to bring out about this before we really start jumping in is in these discussions, the last thing you need to ask is, how can I apply this? Because we mentioned before that you and I, upon being born again or being led to be born again, one of the things that really attracted us was this book. However, it can be bit misused if all you do is sit around and read it and never glean anything from it in a way to act, and all you're doing is sitting around and waiting for Jesus to return.

Prophecy As A Living Word

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Right.

unknown 4:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Not the intent of the book at all.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Now there's I think with all of prophecy, we have a tendency to read prophecy or look at prophecy, uh prophet uh prophetical books, things of that sort, as things that are going to occur in the future. Uh it's prophecy, it's going to occur in the future. It hasn't happened yet. Uh well, yes and no. Um, I think we have to understand that when it comes to prophecy, prophecy is living. Uh and it's and it it's the spoken word of God, it's living. Uh so therefore you can take it in in three different ways. Um prophecy can prophecy is always is always going to speak to what was, what is, and what will be.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

So if we can keep that in mind when we're reading the book of Revelation, when we're reading any of the prophecies uh in the book of Isaiah, Jeremiah, or anywhere else in the Bible, or any prophetical word that's spoken over you uh in in a church service or wherever it might be, um it's it's always always wise to look at it in in those three ways. What was, what is, and what what will it be, or what it will be. Um and here we are, we talked about how the scripture interprets scripture, and it really does. First of all, the book of Revelation will interpret itself if you if you read it, uh, if you read it for more than you know, 10 verses at a time, uh, if you read it more than one chapter at a time, um, it'll it'll interpret itself. Also, I find it interesting that the book of Revelation is at the very end of the Bible, it's the very last book of the Bible. So a lot of the colors that we see in the book of Revelation have already had their symbolic meaning given uh or can be interpreted through the rest of the Bible. Uh uh it's uh things like colors, numbers. Uh, by the time you get into the book of Revelation, you should know what uh what the sea is versus what the land represents, uh, what the sea of glass represents, different things like that, because we see those in other parts of scriptures. Yeah. Uh so when I say scripture interprets scripture, it's not just in the book of Revelation, which it most certainly is, but we can also glean from other parts of the Bible. So when we get to the book of Revelation, we shouldn't be as ignorant to some of the symbology as what as what a lot of us are in the body of Christ.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

And I dare say that although you're going to have New Testament believers all over the place in this, John, so some of the things that are said in here, uh, his reference to a synagogue of Satan, uh, his reference lay in later on parts of the book, uh, and if you go back even to uh the Gospel of John, uh John was known to the priest. Right. He was known to the high priest, he was known to his household. Uh there, you know, there's a school of thought that says John the Baptist was in the scene, and that a lot of what Jesus preached gelled with the Essenes, but they didn't like him going out there and preaching it because it's kind of be contained within that community. But but there's also this element of in the Essene community that the that the priests split into the Sadducees, the Pharisees, and the Essenes. And the Essenes had this distinct view that the other two had been been corrupted. So when he's talking about a synagogue of Satan, he's talking about those that that there it would be like the New Testament way of saying this would be, well, you're a church, but everything you're practicing is evil. You're a corrupt church. You're you're corrupted, it's yielding bad fruit, and matter of fact, your heart isn't right. Yeah. And therefore it's corrupted. I I don't want to get all into that again, but but there's a lot of schools of Jewish thought out here. Uh, the these things that John is putting out, this imagery, is going to be very familiar, uh, as you just said, to Jews. To Jews. To those who have the Old Testament scriptures, which wouldn't be Old Testament to them. Yeah. Really. I mean, they have their scriptures that that are have been canonized and in common practice. And a lot of this imagery, like you mentioned uh Daniel, you mentioned Isaiah, I mentioned Zachariah, a lot of this imagery is being rehashed in Revelation. So not only can you use Revelation to decode Revelation, but as you just said, you can use the Old Testament to decode Revelation.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Yeah. It it very much, the book of Revelation is very much applicable to today just as much it is to future events. Yeah. If you're willing to let the Lord speak to you.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

And just think about this. I don't particularly believe that John is intentionally trying to rehash things per se. These are I I do sincerely believe that these were visions he had. But the fact that there might be one minor different viewpoint, but everything else is going to be exactly like it was according to this prophet saw it or that prophet, or the way Moses might have seen it. The fact that they're so on top of one another with the little minor detail, you know, we mentioned before that that working um any kind of uh first responder, law enforcement, military, different things, you don't want everything to say the exact same thing. That means it's not reliable. This, the the fact that there's these minor, minor differences, but they're still saying the same thing, it it lends to the authenticity of the experience that he's relaying. So but but but think about what what you were talking about earlier, you know, that God He's existing outside of time. Twice already in these readings, and maybe more than that, might be closer to three or four times, Jesus said, I am He who is, who was, and who is to come. Right. When you were talking about prophecy being living, they're inspired. If they're inspired, it means God breathed is the literal translation. Now, did God ever stop breathing? Right. No, right he's never he's never stopped breathing, so it's still inspired, and and that's why you see, although people will some people will poo-poo this, that's why you see that there's events that happen two, three times that well, there's no such thing as double and triple fulfillment. Okay, just wait. Just just watch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You tell me which one was the right one.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Yeah, you tell God he can't do it that way. Yep. And and and uh stand back and watch. And and I think that's that's probably the the biggest uh mistake we've made with prophecy is that we think that prophecy is something spoken into the future, and therefore we could just stand back and wait for it to come. And that's that's a huge mistake. And I think the book of Revelation is one of these books where w we just don't touch it uh in in the church because, well, it's just it's not really for us. You know, we're we're gonna get raptured out at some point, and we're really not gonna be here depending on what what the what doctrine you you you you

Symbols Jewish Context And Trustworthy Visions

SPEAKER_02 12:48

ascribe to. Uh and man, that's okay. I I I hope I'm on that first train smoking. But uh the truth is there is application for the book of Revelation today. We just gotta find it. Just gotta find it.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yeah. The the only churches that are talking about in preachers that are talking about the book of Revelation are the ones that are trying to sell you a book they wrote as a commentary or video series or downloads now. I remember back in the day we buy them DVDs or VHS tapes. Yeah. Had them old plastic things that you know, you you find them 15 years they've been in storage, and then you try and open the the thing on the VHS tapes, and all the plastic containers starts cracking as you open it. Oh man, yeah. But you know, they're they're they're selling you something. And uh not not that some of those things can't be helpful, but we both have been blessed. But also in those things, you gotta take it with a grain of salt. We learned uh, I would say for every two things good we learned, there was a one thing we ended up having to unlearn. Oh, yeah. In order to be practical in our walk.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

There's some good teachings out there. Uh Tim LaHay has got some good teachings. Uh Perry Stone, John Hagey, uh Jack Van Ampe. Um there's a bunch of them uh that come out of the late 90s and early 2000s. They had some really good teachings. Um, but one of the downfalls is that uh they talked their stuff in such a way as to say that theirs was the revelation, theirs is the teaching. Um but when you put them all together, you know, you're well, okay, yeah, I can this is this is something to learn from. So that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Oh, yeah. I I used to love some of Grant Jeffrey's stuff too. Grant Jeffries, yeah. He wasn't as exciting to listen to. If you heard him talk, books were really thorough, though. Yeah. Uh and and one of the things you're gonna find out here when you get into study for yourself, which is what we're trying to perpetuate, is uh a lot of this stuff is not going to be exciting.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

No, it can be very, very dry reading.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yeah, but you will be more accurately based and established if you're willing to do that. And as always, let the Holy Spirit lead you.

Avoid Shortcut Teachings And Hype

unknown 15:12

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yep, amen. Ain't getting this stuff off TikTok, folks. Just ain't happening.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Could you imagine Jack Van Epi on TikTok?

SPEAKER_00 15:23

I I didn't, dude. If I had access to the Jack Van Epi show, every Jack Van Epi clip I would put I would just end with here's Rexella.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Here's Rexella.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Had the dude, had the dude with the perm announcing like his price is right. Oh, yeah. But again, not that he wasn't saying some good stuff. But it was just like, well, what? It was so over the top because that's the way that style of ministry was. It's like, you know, it's like all the girls from Paducah, Kentucky back in the day killed the ozone with all the big hair in the 80s, man. I was having a discussion with somebody. Oh, good Lord, we'll get into this revelation thing here in a second, but I was having a discussion with a with a lady. I go, uh, they had some 80s music playing establishment I was at last night, and uh we got to laughing because kind of around the same age group, and uh we got to laughing about you know the different cars that were there and um the the dress that was there with the big hair because there was uh it was the song Talk Dirty to Me. Yeah, come on, and I started laughing and she started laughing. I said, Man, I said I just flashed back to all the denim, the faded denim, and then all the girls was trying to wear fishnets and they had the big old hair, you know, back they was using so much white rain and aqua net back then in the ward. And uh but I go, you know, can you the the funny thing is, is these girls that thought they were the stuff back then. And don't get me wrong, some of us guys thought they were the stuff too. Oh, yeah. Let's not lie.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Got your collar popped and got your jeans pinch rolled and everything.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Yeah, they wasn't dressing like that if we wasn't paying them some attention because they're dressing like that. But the fact is, these are the blue-haired Karen's demanding to see the manager now. I cracked the joke, said David Lee Roth once told me I was pretty in 87. I need to see the manager.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

A lot of truth in that.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Dude, you think you think about it, this is the same ones. All right, now that you're spiritually edified, let's get into Revelation chapter 3.

Sardis Alive In Name Dead Inside

SPEAKER_00 17:37

And to the angel of the church in Sardis, right? These things says he who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your works that you have a name, that you are alive, but you are dead. It's like in another one, he told like that second church. I know your poverty, but you're rich. Right. Verse 2 be watchful and strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember, therefore, how you have received and heard, hold fast and repent. Therefore, if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. I would like to point out, we always assume this is a given. And we combine that with some other scriptures to prove that point. But he's telling them, this is going to happen if you don't change. Right. So by using the laws of grammar and the rules of grammar, if you do, it will not come upon you as a thief, and and you might be able to discern when when the hour is close. Just throwing that out there. Very good. Verse 4 You have a few names, even in Sardis, who have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before my father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Let me point out a couple things real quick here. Uh these things say that he has had the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. So the seven stars are the seven spirits of God. They were in his right hand in uh chapter one. Uh also he has white clothing with a golden band around his chest. So this is righteous, righteous, but this is also the garment of a priest. Yes. So whenever you see white, like later on, the hundred the hundred and forty-four thousand uh that are redeemed out of the tribe of Israel that are sent out as witnesses, they're all wearing white, they're all virgins. This is priestly language written by a guy who was intimate with the priesthood, intimately connected with the priesthood of the day. So here he's he said, said you got some things, strengthen what remains. He said, You think you're alive, but you're dead. And and I've seen so many churches throughout many denominations that that have this attitude. We got it going on. And you walk in, and the outsider walks in, somebody that's holding hands with the Lord and having that walk, and you go, You ain't nothing. Not as far as relationally and stuff like it, but kind of is relationally. Like, y'all think this is hot stuff and the Lord ain't in it. You know, he when when we were when we were first going into the wilderness, and you know, we were going to all these churches, because that's what you do. You know, you find another church. And that was one of we're a church on fire. And I'm like, uh, nope. Uh your conception of what was going on was was was skewed because those that had relationships, yeah, you we we were picking up on the fact that the Lord wasn't in it.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

When you're in that relationship with the Lord and and and the Holy Spirit's with you and everything, it's not difficult to walk into a place and know if the Lord's there or not. Uh you know, there can be a lot of programs going on, there can be a lot of this, there can be a lot of that, but the Lord will let you know uh if he's there or not. Uh, and just you know, the opposite's true too. Um, there can also be what looks like nothing going on, uh, you know, and then the Lord can speak up and say, Yeah, I'm I'm here. This is this is where I'm at. Um, but uh one thing that I find interesting is a lot of churches will will defend themselves uh and defend the reason. that they're that they're having problems or they're not alive or whatever. And it usually sounds, you know, like uh terminology like like, well, if you find the perfect church, don't join it. You'll just mess it up. You know, we're all just a church full of uh full of full of sinners trying to find our way to all these different things to try to defend themselves in in in the uh in in their shortcomings. But as we look here in the book of Revelation, Jesus doesn't play that. No. Jesus doesn't Jesus doesn't walk into the church and say, oh, y'all are just y'all just a church full of uh sinners here and I should uh cut y'all some slack. No, and we shouldn't be cutting our churches slack either because there are some legitimate complaints and gripes out there when people are hurt and done wrong by a church and the only thing we offer them is well, you know, we're not perfect. That's just not good enough.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

There's a lot of cop outs.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

A lot of cop out. Here's the thing Jesus didn't cut himself no slack. No, he did not why is he going to cut you some slack?

SPEAKER_02 23:12

And if you think that we should forgive and forget um Jesus doesn't play that either. Jesus forgives but um he doesn't forget um so it's right here in the book of Revelation read his interaction what he says he's going to do with churches. Yeah um so just something to think about something to chew on.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

One of the other last things in the notes on this church that I saw though uh when I was taking them down earlier was verse three three three remember you were talking about forgetting he's telling you to remember remember therefore how you have received and heard ah but so so remember how you have received and heard hold fast and repent change so change it back to the way you first heard and the way you first received because now you're receiving it in a different way and that's affecting how your relationship is yeah because you're not getting it from the Lord I I dare say you're not getting it from the Lord you're getting it from somewhere else. And the one of the other things we would mention the uh priestly garments talking about in white um he's and you're going to find this in all of them uh you have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments so how do you do that?

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Well sin it's complacency you're supposed to be wearing what and he's saying since you didn't defile your garments with all this other junk um idolatry uh since you haven't defiled your garments with that I'm only give you my white garments to wear right and he's confessing your name it's uh uh it's in our human nature that when we find something that works and is doing well for ourselves it's in our human nature to try to refine that and streamline it and and we try to do that with our uh our spiritual walk and our spiritual lives and it just doesn't work um we find all different ways to to streamline our relationship to to modify it to make it um quicker uh and do all these things and really it all comes right back here like Jesus says you know right back to where you we went right back to where it started from you know right back to the beginning um and I I'll leave it up to you to to kind of figure out how you're streamlining things how you're trying to cut corners how you're trying to do all this how you're trying to squeeze uh that extra minute

Philadelphia Perseverance And The Open Door

SPEAKER_02 25:50

of of Jesus time in in over here and over there um one little example I can give is I seen a I seen an advertisement for an app that would uh put a scripture verse on your lock screen and and well you got the scripture every time you look at your phone I'm like man that's not that's not the same uh you know uh I get the idea yeah it's it's nice um but uh that ain't gonna mount to hill of beans in your in your spiritual life you could put down your phone you could you can pick up a Bible you can pick up your Bible exactly so you know there we go feel like that African dude that's making fun of all the all the little tricks that people do oh yeah check this out oh man yeah and you go no it kind of works like this you could do it this way let's do it this way yeah the faithful church there we go is what we say here this is the next one not to get a rebuke verse seven and to the angel of the church in Philadelphia right these things says he who is holy he who is true he who has the key of David boom here you go that was another thing in chapter one he who opens and no one shuts and shuts and no one opens again chapter one I know your works see I have set before you an open door man so you see how he's kind of telegraphing me I have the keys I open and shut the door now I'm setting this door before you and no one can shut it for you have a little strength have kept my word and have not denied my name indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews but are not but lie indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet and to know that I have loved you it's important to know that he's not making them worship them.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Right he's making them worship the Lord something to consider and know that I have loved you because you have kept my commandments to persevere I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth wonder how that could happen. It happened a couple different ways behold I am coming quickly hold fast to what you have that no one may take your crown he who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go out no more and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God the new Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven from my God and I will write on him my new name he who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches this one is packed. Yeah yeah this one yeah I like I like this the fact that he's I'm giving you access right because you've persevered because you are these things and again he's telegraphing the judgment but you you think about it there there were two pillars in Solomon's temple uh there was Jacob and Boaz which were named after uh David's descendants and it that they they kind of had Boaz meant strength and uh Jacob um meant established so the the kings would actually be anointed and take their oaths and be be anointed between the pillars right um or 1 Kings and 2 Kings 1 Chronicles 2 Chronicles they're they're gonna have all that but he's saying hey I'm coming but I'm also gonna keep you from entering in this time of extreme trial right so you see he's saying I'm I'm gonna keep you from this hour of trial I'm gonna keep you from this hour of tribulation which is going to come and test those who dwell on the whole earth. Now does he say just you know you're gonna get raptured no does he say you're not going to get raptured no a lot of people read into these things as you said in um one one of our first episodes you see so a little bit argument for a little bit of argument against you know for different things. Key is to do your own study uh what I like here is he not only is he giving you access those he's making you a pillar in the temple of his God right this is not just in the porch of the temple where those were he's talking inside inside and you're getting renamed. He's saying you have kept my word you have not denied my name now you're getting a new name.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

And that's a big thing for those who are like like you said for those who are persevered.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Because this church and this church spirit there's uh there's a lot of persecution uh there's a lot of a lot of tribulation there's a lot that's happening to uh to the believers in this particular in this particular church so he has uh special blessings uh for these believers absolutely and and philadelphia is a city of brotherly love and I I do not think it is a coincidence

Laodicea Lukewarm Wealth And Blindness

SPEAKER_00 31:20

that upon the founding of this country uh you look at where the declaration you look at where the Constitutional convention is it's in Philadelphia the fact that there's a city named Philadelphia just goes you show you some of the biblical imagery and foundation that were was present as things are coming together to form this country right verse 14 it says here the lukewarm church and to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write these things said the Amen the faithful and true witness the beginning of the creation of God he's talking about the word right there all those are words amen so be it that's a proclamation that's a word a faithful and true witness word the beginning of the creation of God if you read John's gospel in the beginning was the word I know your works that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish you were cold or hot so then because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot I will vomit you out of my mouth because you say I am rich and become wealthy and have need of nothing and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich in white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed, and anoint your eyes with salve that you might see. We're going to have to come back to this verse here in a second. As many as I love I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. Behold I stand at the door and knock if any one hears my voice and opens the door I will come to him and dine with him and he with me. To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne he who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

When Church Culture Trains Lukewarm Faith

SPEAKER_00 33:31

And that's how they end. Everybody listening if you can relate to this at all and the Lord calling you out of a place like this you are who wofoyo was meant for yeah yeah this was in a lot of ways this was us. Now you have people saying we were on fire saw some mighty things but man there there was some there was some doctrines crept in the the reason there was this lukewarmness even though the activity seemed to be all that in a bag of chips at times says you're neither cold nor hot I will vomit you out of my mouth check this out because you say I am rich we got our 501c3 donations are good I've become wealthy I have need of nothing and do not know that you're wretched miserable poor blind and naked now think about all these things he said you're wretched miserable poor blind and naked now verse 18 he's he's giving you the the cure for all these I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in fire that's uh now now you're not poor white garments that you may be clothed that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed so now the the wretched and the miserable and the naked are being taken care of. Right anoint your eyes with salve that you might see now the blind's being taken care of if you're willing to receive the correction everything that he's telling you even though you have these preconceived notions about things that hey I've got it going on we don't we we don't need to address that brother there there were that that's the spirit behind we don't need to talk about that you know things are good right now and we don't want to make too many waves you know that this is a this is a big tent congregation and we got a lot of we got a lot of parishioners we got a lot of members and we need to to minister to all those so we're not going to address this topic this is the very explicitly set out in the Bible oh yeah it's their compromise so bad.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

This is the independent church uh the church that uh has all the resources to do to do for themselves uh you know they've they've they've got the resources they've got the income they've got all this and they've got all that um and they forget well they forget where the stuff's coming from uh they forget where all the blessing is coming from they forget that it's actually coming from God and they start to think that it's coming from themselves it's coming it's coming from their own righteousness it's becoming it's coming from the things that they're doing because they're doing it right because uh it's because we're uh we're we're we're sanctified because we're we're we're a holiness church because uh because we're this and because we're that uh it reminds me uh the scripture where Jesus says um you know there'll be many in the last days who say Lord Lord did we not uh prophesy in your name did we not heal in your name and I'll say I never knew you cast out doubt cast out in your name um and that and for a long time I heard that preached you know that these were these were um you know lukewarm or unbelieving Christians and and I I've come to believe here within the last couple years that these were just simply Christians that that were saying hey didn't we do these things didn't I do these things and Jesus is saying no I did these things through you uh you forget you forget where the power was coming from yeah uh so yeah this this is a this is a pretty bad church in this church it is better to be cold you're better off being a cold Christian in this church than to be lukewarm point of contact you know a little point of reference with me been through the church experience been there done that gave it the bank uh people oh you're bitter well yeah damn right I'm bitter yeah uh not at God yeah I mean God was good yeah but some of the games they was playing in them organizations though and the fact that the fact that um you're calling that righteousness yeah I was a little bit bitter yeah zeal for your house is eating me up yeah and uh a little bit jaded so you you can say I was cold i was out there I was out there getting drunk playing in the bars and uh playing them good old outlaw country songs that that a lot of people don't want to talk about I'm so uh as far as the call now granted here here here's the weird thing about that um I was really stepping into what he was calling me to do in a lot of other areas and that was prepping me up so all this worldly success and professional success that I was experiencing was setting me up for to get called back here's the thing if you're cold yeah he call you back yeah yeah if you're hot man it it keeps you going he speak to you also the other thing is if you're hot and you're listening he can keep you from burning out like we did yeah and uh because we started to do it on our own power on our own ego yeah uh but when you're lukewarm there in the middle and here here's the thing pissed me off getting real spiritual here folks the problem is the way a lot of these churches are cookie cutter designing their members to be they're designing them to be lukewarm yeah and they're saying if you're lukewarm then you're a good member of this congregation yeah because you won't make waves if you're lukewarm it's about control yeah um there were people who were literally waiting for my fire to burn out uh they just were kind of standing off the well yeah you you're on fire there bug you're on fire there brother says um but under their breath and I would I would find this out later under their breath yeah he'll he'll he'll die out here with he'll he'll be okay once he die down a little bit uh we just gotta hold on for a little bit um and that that's the spirit in these lukewarm churches uh when someone catches fire is they'll just hold on and wait for you to burn out um well they they they know it's gonna happen uh so and and they want the lukewarm uh they'll try to sell you with some wet blankets at the bookstore yeah yeah yeah they'll uh they'll say the coffee and donuts out there in the lobby and and uh and everything else had a conversation with some folks last week um about one of the churches that we had attended and become members and everything and we had all of us in the conversation have been a part of the same church and uh the young lady she goes well would you like to hear why we left I said yeah do tell I'm kind of curious you know because I don't usually ask a lot of questions yeah um I just I let people talk but I won't ask questions I was always feeling uh I always feel intrusive uh when I started asking questions anyway I said yeah if I mean if you want to offer it up and uh they told us their story and and uh basically what it came down to is is her her husband who who plays guitar and and sings really well uh and everything said just notice that uh the the music ministry was was headed in a particular direction and and everything and I'm sitting there going well I know exactly what you're talking about you know um I said well did he are you saying you felt out of balance yeah that's it I said okay so I can feel that's by and large the reason that that we were called out too we felt that we had to leave too just a matter of balance not really anything bad on anybody's part just balance so anyway she kept on talking she was so yeah we we we ended up leaving the church and when the pastor came over to our house and and sat down with us says what can we do to keep you all y'all been here for a while and you you know we love you what can we do I said he did what he goes well the pastor came over to our house hey Ivor Dang said well we left and we left about the same time uh my wife and I and their family we left this particular church about the same time I said Iberdang said well we left it was not a single soul so much as texted us to see where we went to or what happened to us I said but all the talk about you know checking up on your brother and and and accountability and all that stuff I said none of that was we saw none of that standard being held when when we left she was really I said yeah well every dang I said so that you'll see that in the lukewarm church because it matters over here but it don't matter over there there's there's uh there's a uh it's it's the church is wishy washy uh there's the the application of their doctrine and theology is is sporadic uh and usually well there's usually an ulterior motive behind it it's very selective in how they apply their theology I guess if I played guitar and sang pretty good they'd probably come visit me too but uh but it the the folks that left at the same time we did beautiful family loving people uh but it was just time for them to go that's all they found another well we we've seen that before with a friend of ours mentor of ours you know dude had his roof house about to get condemned yeah and and his roof's caving in raining raining and he's running the food pantry on social security and the princess of a praise and worship leader is getting hurt

Selective Care Church Hurt And Real Family

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Oh, well, she's young and you know, popular and could do no wrong. And all her transmission ran out, you know. Her transmission gave out, and you know, that's our worship leader, and you know, did this and this, and then they hold a donation, they got it paid for. And you know what? No complaint against that. Yeah. But the fact that you're doing it for that and you're not doing it for the guy who's a senior citizen and who's doing this stuff on his own dime, and as you mentioned in one of uh our other episodes a couple times, the dude had so much integrity that he wouldn't, even though he was living in poverty, would not take food from that food pantry, but would go to another food pantry to avoid the even the slightest bit of looking like he was doing any wrong. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

He would travel to the to a neighboring county uh to put to draw from a food pantry because he didn't want any indication uh of wrongdoing. So but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

But but but it becomes selective. It does. You know, uh you got the uh in the lukewarm church, you got the adult table and you got the kid table, and you know when you're at the kid table.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

Now, is is that church hurt? Yeah, call it what you want to. If you're one of these people that don't believe in church hurt, it's just hurt is hurt. Uh then you know, walk it like you believe it. That's cool. Um, but I'll tell you this about church hurt. Um, because I'm a veteran and I and I've and I've lived the army life and I've lived with brothers who have fought beside me in combat. And when a church, when that when a church tells me that we're family, I can emphatically tell them that we're not, because I know what family is. Um I've served with people that I know for a fact would not do that to me. That would not sell me down the river. Um because it it's a different, it's a whole different level. Um most of the church when we talk about family doesn't understand that that particular concept.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

But that's an that's another podcast for another day.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Well, that's a whole thing. I remember like the most intense day of my job. Um crazy. I'm 46 years old, still on the tactical unit, still am at 51. Um, and they go, it's hit. And I tie my number for cell extractions. I doubled the amount of inmates that we had extracted, fires, flooding, everything, uh bruised up and down from doing all that stuff. I dressed out at 7 o'clock and we didn't get out of there that 7 a.m. And we didn't get out of there till 2:30 a.m. And it was go, go, go, go, go. Write paperwork, back at it, go, go, go, go, go. Best day of my career by far. And you know what? Those people that experienced that with me, that's family. Yeah. And ain't no doubt, we'll probably have to have some court cases where we're going to be family in federal or state court because we made people behave. Yeah. You know, and and that that goes with the territory. When you go through things like that, that's family. That's a bond. Most churches these days, since you build it on comfort, the modern, what what they used to call seeker sensitive, which has really become par for the course of a lot of your big churches, uh, I don't even think that term's applicable anymore because it was a thing used by smaller churches to call the bigger churches as a slight. But really, uh, well, when a small church is copying the big church and doing the exact same thing, you don't you you've lost the authority to even use that remark. Um, but when it's all about comfort and your worship experience and making you feel good about yourself when in fact you need to repent. Um even if you have a repentance message, you're doing it like Mr. Rogers. You know, uh you're doing it, you're you're giving a repent message in a non-threatening way. You know, well, and you wonder why guys don't come to church, but but the whole thing is this comfort thing, you've produced the lukewarmness, you've produced the very thing that's gonna that that's gonna be your undoing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Jesus said he'll vomit you out of his mouth. Uh I don't know how you say that softly. Um, but yeah, I got a buddy of mine. We uh we fought together in Central America, and we hadn't seen each other or heard it from each other in 30 years. And was it three years ago? We just found each other out of the clear blue on Facebook. He was on Facebook under his wife's name. That's why I'd never found him. But anyway, I get a message from him. He's like, hey, brother. I said, dude, where you been? You know, we go back and forth for a minute or two and uh come to find out he's still living in Massachusetts. I probably told the story before, still living in Massachusetts. We're going out to Massachusetts in just a couple weeks to, you know, at the time of the of our going back and forth. And he says, he says, Man, you gotta come see me. You gotta you got a free place to stay. Just come see me. So after 30 years, 30 plus years of not seeing each other, pulled up in his driveway, and it was like it was like we'd never spent a day apart. Uh stepped right back into all of our conversations and and everything that we'd ever done. Uh we're going back to New England in two weeks from right now. Uh, not next weekend, but the very next weekend, we're going back to New England, and we're gonna stay with him and his wife for two weeks. And uh to me, that's family. That's family that don't that don't skip a beat, uh, that don't they don't care about your absences, they just want to catch up when they can. Um, so family's different when uh when you really when you really had some misery to share in. So something to think about.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Well, you think about when you're describing that, and I can I can relate, there's there's some there's a handful of folks. You know, and you might not talk for six months, you might be 15 years. And it's like you pick right up where you left off. I got some family members like that, too. And the but the thing is, this experience, what what you're describing, is exactly how it would have been for those communities, those communities, those uh those churches, uh, those Christian communities that were established by Paul. Right. And Barn, because they're gonna come back through. It might be 10 years. Let me see how you're doing. Let's catch up. And and boom, it's right back into it. Yeah, yeah. You know, uh I do want to say the the one thing is the the the seeker, the the thing where it's all about comfort, you see Jesus saying, I stand at the door and knock if you if you hear and you open.

Repentance Spiritual War And Closing

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Do you feel like opening it? Uh I I'll come in. Even with your mess.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

Even with your mess.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

I'll come in.

SPEAKER_02 51:36

Yeah, the uh the church here in America still has a lot to work on. And and I hope that I hope that not only church leaders, but even the parishioners in those churches would would listen to the call, listen to the call to repentance, and stop making excuses for for what we're doing. And just simply heed the call. Um, because repentance is not hard. Um matter of fact, repentance is enabled by the Holy Spirit. Uh, we don't do it on our own. It's probably one of the easiest things we can ever do is to repent. All we gotta do is yield, and then everything else uh falls into place uh by God's spirit. But if the church here in America doesn't start understanding that um that that we're missing out, we're missing out on our on a really, really good relationship with Jesus Christ, uh we're gonna lose, we're gonna lose this generation. We're we're at war and we don't even know it. Uh that's that's a a big part of it. We're at war, but we're not at war. Uh if I can use um Jesus' uh kind of terminology or his his phraseology here. You're you're blind, but you can't or you you know you you're you're rich, but you're poor. Uh you know. But there's a a lot of our churches are, you know, they say they're at war, but they're not really fighting.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

So yeah. And the other thing is they're misidentifying, they think every war is kinetic, and they don't realize the games the enemy's playing. Yeah. They're non-kinetic. They're um asymmetric is the term you the church for the last 50, 60 years, has been having unsome asymmetric warfare against it. And since it's not kinetic in nature, we don't recognize it.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

No, the church is trying to fight a clearly defined battlefront when the enemy is fighting an asymmetric war against it.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

And those are two different fights. Yeah, uh the the established church is trying to do Klauschwitz and what you should be doing is Sun Tzu. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

It's a very, very steep learning curve, for sure. For sure. Um those who those who fight and and fall and get back up will do well. But those who fight and fall and refuse to do so, refuse to get back up, you'll get trampled under. Uh because the uh the the fight's not going to end until until Jesus comes back. And we don't know when that's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

Yep. Just best be prepared. Amen. Hey everybody, thanks for listening. We hope this challenges you and causes you to grow. You can always check us out at bothfolio.org or subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Audible, or even check us out on YouTube. Remember, folks, if you're gonna grow, you gotta folio. Get in the word for yourself.