Tom Ostrem-@ThatHelicopterGuy

This week's guest hails all the way from the fjords of Norway! He is a very talented utility pilot, safety manager, and photographer. On this episode, Tom shares his unique journey to becoming a utility pilot in Norway, and the benefits of working as a load master for a few years prior to getting into the right seat on complex utility missions. We all know flying helicopters is not a typical job, and we operate them in risky environments. As the safety manager for his company, Tom has the opportunity to create a work environment that orbits around safety. We really dive into the importance of risk assessments and aeronautical decision making by providing a couple of real life scenarios on how to mitigate risks. Hope you enjoy the episode! 

Transcript

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You're listening to the forever on the fly podcast Hello, aviation nerds. You know there comes a time in every aviation podcasting host slash pilots life when you have to go fly for the day and leave your podcasting partner to do an interview all by her lonesome. And unfortunately, that day was today for Mr. Hernandez. He will be missed on this one. But no fear. I am here to carry the torch that is getting all of you hooked on aviation and I do not take that responsibility lightly. So let's get the mood back up and talk aviation. Our next guest hails all the way from Norway, very talented utility pilot and photographer you guys might know as at that helicopter guy. I know I've been a big fan for about a year now. And he's here to chat about helicopters. He's here to chat about how he found his passion for aviation and his career path that he took and why he chose the route that he did benefits of working as loadmaster prior to getting into that right seat safety and his favorite risk assessment model. So here is Tom Athrun. It's about mitigating the risks of that you can then kind of accepting that there are some things you won't be able to do much about. Hi, I'm Thomas Blum, and I'm forever on the fly. Hey, you're that helicopter guy, right? That's correct. I've seen you around. Well, dude, I love your photography. I've been following you on Instagram for a while now. Thank you. And likewise, thank you for having me. I really love it when I can see pilots and people in aviation and a great creativity into aviation and into their AV careers. What came first, did your passion for photography come first? Or did you get into aviation and then kind of figure out later on that you wanted to combine the two, it was definitely aviation person. So that's been a childhood dream of mine to fly. So I'm basically living my dream. And then eventually I realized that, you know, taking pictures, that's kind of cool. I had while I was a loadmaster, I flew with a pilot who brought his camera along. And I started borrowing his camera for a little bit, and then decided to buy my own. And that's how I got started. And obviously, I didn't anticipate it going this far. Yeah, it's been a it's been a fun ride. And it's, it's nice being able to share some of the news or be you know, the more prettier sides of the job. I mean, definitely see a lot of other stuff that's not right there on Instagram all the time. But it's it's fun to be able to share a bit, please. You know, those of us who like sharing our jobs on social media, we do what we can to share what we can about the work that we do, and things that we get to see we can't show it all, unfortunately. But now you did mention to me before that flying has always been a childhood dream of yours. Can you just run us through your story? So what initially sparked that passion for aviation? And how did you get to where you are today? Well, it's just ever since I was little, I've had like this romanticized view about flying, you know, it's pure magic, you know, and that kind of stuck with me, but for a long while, in my childhood, I didn't kind of think that I could be a pilot, it kind of seemed like something you had to be like an extraordinary human being to, you know, be able to, to get to that point. So I didn't really think I was gonna be able to go that path until I actually started. Well, maybe just before high school, I started seeing that. Okay, so these are actually people, you know, I can I can definitely give this a shot. So that's when I started kind of doubling down on, you know, thinking about how can I, you know, make a career in aviation. And I very quickly realized that this considering my romanticized view of flying and I want to be a pilot pilot, and, and this is not, you know, talking down anyone that flying highly automated helicopters or anything like that, but to me, it was very much about being able to kind of master the machinery by your own by herself. And, and I've, after having done a lot of research, I realized that helicopters was a very good, good entry into that kind of an area or a segment of aviation that is very specialized. And that requires a lot of training, you know, it. It doesn't take that long to learn how to fly but it takes a long time to master a helicopter and obviously, you know, we're never fully taught but it's a kind of like that, you know, it's kind of a craft. And it takes time to get there. So, so I started tinkering a bit with flight simulators in high school. And that kind of just cemented my view that this is something I want to do, it was really interesting. And I started taking LIDAR lessons in high school that didn't really pan out because of the logistics that were very, very tricky to get a hold on, I did some paragliding, because that was easier. And then I got sidetracked for a little bit. In the army, I tried out for the Air Force did not make that cut, which was a major setback for me at the time. And it was kind of hard to, to kind of be motivated after that. So I instead of joining the Air Force here, because we have to do a year of mandatory service here in no way, I decided to join the army, I wanted to get as far away from Air Force bases and anything like that. So I joined an armored battalion, and kinda didn't think about aviation that much. Until maybe six months prior to getting out of that service, I decided that you know, what, I know other pilots who did the same thing they tried out for the Air Force Academy and failed. And, you know, it's, it's not easy to get in the year I applied, I think they had 1000 Plus applicants for like, 12 positions. So I did realize that it's possible to, to become a pilot and not, you know, go the Air Force way to get go about it. So that's kind of, I started finding my motivation gradually. But then again, I was sidetracked by a job offer in the army and I stayed on in the army for another three years, I had a great time there. But at that point, when those three years are up, I realized that now it's time to get down to flying. And so I started in flight school, here in Norway, and had a lot of fun, I realized very early on that, you know, it's very easy to kind of, always think about what's next, you know, but I wanted to take a minute to kinda enjoy what I had at the time. And you probably won't have as much freedom when it comes to flying in your career or any other place later on. So I decided to do my best in terms of appreciating the freedom I had in flight school, or whenever I had solo flights, or navigation fights, cross country flights. I tried to think outside the box a little bit, and just try to keep it fun, you know, and actually enjoy the fact that you're out here flying. So that was, that was fun. I definitely think the most fun I ever had was when I was in flight school, but you don't realize it because the grass is always greener, right on. Okay, I just have to get through flight school, so that I can get to my dream job, I can get to the dream platform that I want to be flying. But yeah, what people really don't realize is like, Yo, you have your own aircraft, and you get to go on these cross countries. And hey, let's just go get lunch over and Catalina, at least over here, you know, which is something that I think a lot of students because to get motivated to get through flight school because it's so much work, and you're working so hard to attain a goal like you forget to enjoy the journey along the way. So I think that's a really important message, but totally like we romanticize aviation. Before we actually get into it, we see these pilots as like gods, right? Like, oh my god, like, I can't I want to be used someday. And I hear that from people to where it sounds like they're romanticizing the job as if it's not an attainable goal, but it totally is like we're all human. I mean, definitely some pilots that I've met were like okay, you are definitely not a god dude. Sure, yeah. name any names but some people along the way you're like, Okay, bro. Like it's kind of funny, but I hope I don't come off as like sounding superior like I'm deaf. Oh, no, no, that's I think everyone can relate to that one. Not God's gift to flying you know any mean? I have my own faults obviously, like we all do, but we learn from them right? We learn from the mistakes we make along the way and that's ultimately how we grow as pilots is like it's so annoying when you see people that are flying. Flying Yes, 90 two's for example, offshore and being very superior towards people that are flying and are 44 on sightseeing, for example. I mean, it's not a competition you know? It's an, you're just as much a pilot, if you find the 44, as 92, you just have a different, you have different things you have to focus on, you know, it's a different job. But I mean, there, you both pilots and flying a Robinson doesn't mean you're any less of a pilot. And I just hate it when people kind of draw those conclusions. And, and that's, you know, with every comic career, you know, it's the your job title doesn't reflect the person you are at all. And it should not come off in any other way that you know, you're your own individual. And what you do is, you know, doesn't really matter that much. It's how you do your job. If you're flying that 44. If you're being irresponsible, and disregarding rules and regulations and limitations. Obviously, you're not fit to fly that but you could be fine s 90 to be violating the procedures just as much. So it's more about how you do your job, then you know what kind of aircraft you're doing that job. And so it's all about the airmanship and making sure you you you do your best in terms of decision making and getting everyone back home safely. Yeah, I mean, if you can buy an AR 22 You can basically fly anything. I know, right? Yeah, I know. I mean, I would like to see, you know, and that was really humbling. I, when I came to heli Expo in January, I I got to go flying with York from I fly heli, Instagram. And I was really grateful for being able to go with him. And we took the Catalina round, which was amazing at sunset, it was just, yeah, that was pure gold. It was very humbling. Because I mean, I took the controls in the crews, they're on our way, way out there. And then I was tasked with landing as we came back. And let me tell you, that was humbling for sure. I mean, I that was not pretty that was I was in the final five. Yeah, I mean, I thought for sure that, you know, I yeah, I've flown 22. You know, that was 12 years ago. And yeah, for a whole lot. And that was that really kind of that was very humbling. I mean, the flying the 350. And, and getting that experience. And I mean, I was able to land eventually, but it was not pretty. I looked like a student pilot. Yeah, that was definitely humbling. So you went through flight school? And did you already have a job in mind of a career path that you wanted? Did you know what you wanted to do? Yeah, I I'm kind of geeky in the way that when I set my eyes on something, I kind of double down on doing the research and all that. And I. So I, I did a lot of research into the market that I wanted to fly, I pictured myself, okay, so what is the job, I want to what's my dream job. And I started kind of talking to people that was doing that at the time, and figuring out how I could kind of duplicate their paths, career wise. And I actually linked up with a couple of guys who were flying in a company that I'm now flying for an extreme sports event where they were flying parachute jumpers, and I actually tagged along with them for a couple of days, I was about maybe 17, or something at the time. So I tagged along a bit and realized that yeah, this is definitely the kind of flying I want to get into. I knew that utility flying was, you know, in terms of what I was saying before this being a craft, and it takes a long time to come get good at it. Figuring utility is kind of sort of the pinnacle of that, in many ways. To me, utility firing is what I see as the pinnacle that obviously doesn't mean that there are not other parts of the industry that are at least as challenging and requires as much skills to operate different kind of helicopters and operations. So but to me, that's a very, you know, that pure hand flying thing is very important. While obviously you have very many other areas within rotary aviation that are just as challenging and say, just instructing, for example, I mean, that must take so much patience and so much scale to get that and I mean, I would not make a good instructor for sure. So, so I don't want to Yeah, it's I just I kind of found my area of interest. Very happy that I was able to to try that out. Yeah, I mean, flight instruction. I know a lot of pilots who wish they could have just completely skipped over that step and building their flight time. But I know when I was an instructor it was definitely it's just a whole different set of classes. Colleges, right? I know about 98% of my students, English was not their first language. So that right there was already its own set of challenges. And let alone teaching multiple students at the same time, and everyone has a different style of learning, that's something that you have to adapt to, as an instructor, just totally different styles of flying, not one is superior than the other. And, you know, I probably would have stayed in instructor instruction a little bit longer if the paycheck matched the amount of work that you actually put down, I would say, I probably made about $23,000 a year working sometimes six days a week teaching, you know, 10 students at a time, it just wasn't worth it for me, you know, it's time to move on and get to the next level. All right, so where are we in your story? Now, so far, you've linked up with a utility company that you had your heart set on. And I've done a couple of ride alongs, and you're trying to figure out how you can mimic the route that they took to get to where they are. So what was the route that you ended up taking. So I spoke with them and realized that since I'm going to be flying in Norway, and most operators doing that will not have a specific requirement in terms of flight hours, because in Norway, the general route is through through the load master route or ground crew before you become a pilot and utility operations. So it wouldn't matter if I had 140 hours from from Norway or 1000 hours flying patterns in Florida as an instructor. So I decided that since I wasn't going the offshore route, which would have definitely benefited from having taken the training in the US and hopefully gotten an instructor job there, I decided to stick closer to where the job was so that I can do some some networking as well. You knew you had a goal, you wanted to find utility. And even working just as ground crew, you're getting on the job training, you're still getting to fly with the pilots and getting to learn the mission first, rather than necessarily learning the equipment and the actual skill of the flying, which I think is really beneficial. So how do you think that that helped you in the long run? How long were you ground crew for and before you actually got to get behind the stick? Yeah, so I spent three years as a loadmaster, before I became a trainee. And in those three years, you're basically handling all the groundwork in terms of, you know, getting all the loads ready, making sure that they're secure, hooking the loads, refueling, you'd be doing fuel logistics, like driving fuel from A to B, driving equipment, you'd be watching the helicopters and doing all that, you know, typical ground crew work. So and but as you said, I mean, you're in there in the cockpit, you know, when you're flying from A to B, or when you're flying people to various sites, or you're doing photo missions or anything like that. So you pick up a lot, and you're flying with, especially in my company, we have approximately 14 as 350 at the time, and you pick up a lot of stuff from different people. So kind of pick the good, the good qualities of the various pilots, kind of visualize. Okay, so this is definitely a good habit, I want to take this with me when I started flying. So that was very, very beneficial, being able to see. I mean, there are so many ways of doing a job. Some are definitely better than others, though. So I tried to pick up some stuff there. And then once you start the trainee route, or like the final, final route there, which is kind of kind of doing a little bit of both. It's a very gradual transition into the right hand seat and doing things on your own. So you start out flying, flying simple taxi missions or sightseeing flights and stuff like that. And then eventually, you'll start flying a load here and there. Simple loads, just big bags to very kind locations that doesn't really require the precision that you later have to rely on. So I think it was a very, very gradual transition. It was very nice to be able to get it as I mean, I would definitely not complain if I had gotten there faster. I mean, three years is a long time. And and we have guys now unfortunately, who spent twice that and the reason for that obviously is that Even though we only hire pilots from our pool of loadmasters, we still need, I mean, there needs to be opening openings for pilots. And that hasn't been the case for a while in this current market, which is very sad, unfortunately. But that's kind of the thing that limits that. So you don't know getting the in there, how long you're gonna be on the ground. And that could be frustrating at times, not knowing what's gonna come up ahead, right, it's not exactly guaranteed that you're going to be getting into the pilot seat anytime soon, until somebody leaves the company. And it's a good company, I guess people would probably be sticking in there for a while. I guess you're pretty lucky that three years as a ground crew member and then a year as a trainee, that's, that's pretty good, even though it took you longer the mission first, and then being able to focus on the precision flying because, you know, obviously, like you said, that's kind of the pinnacle. A lot of people believe that too. It's just that utility is so it's so such a precision type of flying. You see these guys slinging Christmas trees. Like crazy people, yeah, that takes a tremendous amount of skill. Even with what I'm doing, and I'm just flying chartered, you know, super simple, from point A to point B, bring this crew bring this organ from point A to point B, not doing any off airport stuff, literally just flying and learning the new machine, which is a more complex machine than I've ever flown before the HW 109. And after we pass our check rides, they still have a sit in the other seat, riding along with other pilots even after we've passed our checkride for a period of time until you get comfortable learning the mission, and kind of like learning the aircraft along the way as well. So I really like that about the way that our company operates as well. It's it's as he said, I mean, it's in utility finder, so many, so many logistics, you know, there are so many on a on one project, you could have three different subtract subcontractors that need to have different needs, you know, and from your vantage point, kind of serving all three of them, you have a unique perspective on. Okay, so how can we get this done the best way possible for all parties involved. So being able to, to get an understanding of that logistical side of it definitely made it easier. And also, so the fact that when you are released into the wild, as a pilot, once you're done, it's single pilot. So I mean, you have a loadmaster when you who's a pilot, or Yeah, he's a helicopter pilot, obviously. But at the same time, you're very much kind of on your own. You don't have any senior members, except on check rides that are kind of looking over your shoulders and come. Yeah, you kind of have to make sure that you don't have bring any bad habits into that. So. So I was very, very happy to get that chance to learn from the other guys. And hopefully I haven't picked up many bad habits along the way. I mean, we all have them, but it's all about minimizing them as much as possible. Right? And what equipment are you flying now, I'm flying you the days 350 Most of the time, I also did the type rating on the Super Puma earlier this year. So that's so much fun. I mean, I I mentioned before, I'm a geek and that the it's always the first production super Puma, it was the first one to roll off the assembly line. So it's vintage, proper vintage, but it's so much fun. And I love that like I love the fact that it's old and that it's you have the old analog cockpit and everything. It's just the photographer in me at least I think that has a much more aesthetically pleasing look than all glass cockpits we have we have pre Augusta Westland one, six nines, or Leonardo one six nines flying for a Marine pilot transfer operation. And it's all computer screens. I mean, I get that at home on my flight simulator, you know, it's, yeah, it's, I mean, don't get me wrong, I definitely get the increased situational awareness, you know, in bad weather and all that I would definitely be in the 169 If I had a choice, but it is something to me as an enthusiast, it's very rewarding to be able to operate a machine like that and kind of getting that How should I put it, you know, things are definitely evolving in the way where the pilot is being reduced more and more to a systems operator and to still kind of having Yeah, so still being able to kind of feel that you're actually operating the machinery and it's not, you know, just monitoring the machinery doing its job. So I definitely like that. Yeah, I like to feel like I'm here. sounds so cheesy one with the machine. But but really like getting into the 109 has been really cool because of the automation and I'm like, Okay, if I was in IFR or or got hit with any bad weather, that's the machine that I would want to be in with the automation. I could just press a button literally by it start getting disoriented, you just hit the go around button, it puts you in a stable 700 per minute climb. Yeah, that's really, for safety. Safety wise, that's really, really nice. But I love like the 350 Yeah, Airbus products are like, I got my higher, I'm always wearing this hat. I love Airbus products. So like, it'd be really cool to check out the super Puma. And it's, and it's so easy to fly. I mean, that was I mean, if you for any other helicopter, I mean, it's so so easy. I mean, just flying it, I mean, operating it is a different story. But flying it is very rewarding. And especially when you come from and the you know, the nervous 350 You know, landings can throw the more seasoned, seasoned pilot off sometimes. So, being able to land a smooth and stable helicopter like the super Puma, on, you know, landing gear like proper wheels and stuff with a smooth suspension. It's so rewarding when you do that the first time. It's just pure. Yeah, it's it's really nice. It's very fun machine to fly, and so forth. Do you get to still fly it on missions? Are you got your type rating? But you said you're mostly flying that 350? Yeah, yeah, we don't find out as much. And there are a few of us. So yeah, it varies a lot, I probably want to find out a whole lot. But hopefully a bit from time to time a couple of times. You know, every other month, hopefully. So I mentioned we'll definitely that'll be that'll be utility missions mostly. So and in the beginning now that will obviously be as pilot monitoring for for the the sling log work. So but hopefully come next year, I will be able to get a chance to try the long run on that as well. That would be really interesting to try. Yeah, that's cool. Oh, does it have like, a lot of stabilization? I mean, you said everything's pretty analog. But yeah, it has, you know, the it is stabilized. But you know, it's, it's old. You know, in terms of automation, you have heading, hold airspeed hold and also to home. So that's, you know, the whole sweep of automation, but it's quite stable. So it? Definitely, yeah, it should be interesting to try. But you know, when you've never tried it before, I mean, I haven't even tried, you know, with an empty long line. I never know what you're how it's gonna be until you actually try it. So I don't really I don't want to speculate how much into what that's gonna be like, but I definitely look forward to that. I bet man, let me know how that goes. And circling back to our original conversation about risk mitigation and safety, which is something I really wanted to drive into this episode. Seeing as it is your forte holding these safety manager, the very important role of safety manager at your company. Was there anything in particular that inspired you to take on that role? Was that something you've always wanted to do? Being in the army, you I, we had a couple of incidents and experiences that led me to realize that, you know, we sometimes you operate in, in a recent build environment. But that doesn't mean you should accept any risk. So it became apparent to me that in many cases, it's about mitigating the risks that you can, and then kind of accepting that there are some things you won't be able to do much about, you know, and I can't realize that moving into aviation as well. And having seen what can happen and, you know, having lost friends in aviation as well, you, you realize that this is definitely not a regular job in many aspects. And it is a risk build environment, but it's, yeah, I just realized that I kind of have an eye for seeing the risks that need there will always be inherent, but what can we do to mitigate those risks as much as possible? And more than anything else? I mean, what are unnecessary risks and why do we take unnecessary risks? So the whole risk reward concept is very important to me. And so for me, it was I just showed an interest in that and I think the company kind of picked up on it, and they kind of nurtured that. That interest in to that field, so I kind of went through ranks from I started out as a navigation officer actually, because I took a special interest in, in an obstacle, an obstacle awareness. So we developed some systems there to kind of increase the situational awareness in the cockpit. And, and then I became a safety advisor aided in the safety promotion work, investigations and stuff like that, then became a senior safety adviser before I became the safety manager. So the company was very accommodating. And yeah, nurtured my interest for flight safety in a very good way. I think. So it's been interesting to do. I mean, I love flying. But it's definitely interesting to be able to affect the safety aspect of it as well. Yeah, it's super interesting and super important to have somebody like you within a company, as a safety manager to create the right environment and to set the stage for a safe working environment that could potentially save people's lives in the long run. And there's so many different models out there that we can use to assess and mitigate risk. And throughout my career, mostly, you know, even in the Coast Guard, we've got on a search and rescue mission, we'd have to do a standard green Amber red risk assessment model to determine whether or not it's going to be a go or no go. And it's very simple environment, pilot crew, everything gets assigned a numerical value. And eventually, it all adds up to whether or not we're in the green, which means go Amber, which means use some caution, maybe we can find a couple of things within our assessment that we can change and improve on to bring our score down. And then obviously, red would be a no go. And that's just like a really basic model across the board. But there are a little bit more complex ones that we can use. But in your opinion, as a safety manager, what is your favorite risk assessment model? And how does it work? Well, it's based around the green Amber red model, as you mentioned, but but with a bow tie, kind of approach to it kind of seeing where the barriers kind of fit into place. Is this something? Is this a measure where we reduce the likelihood of something happening? Or is this something that will reduce the consequences of that happening, you know, so say, for example, birds, you know, their hazard, they can lead to a bird strike on the windshield, which can lead to pilot incapacitation. And obviously, that will be very bad day, indeed. So in terms of, if you if you look at that example, you can mitigate the risk. By reducing the speed in on areas of birds, that'll reduce the likelihood of the event, right. So that will reduce the risk of you even having a bird strike. But then if you want to go further, and you want to see okay, so are there other things we can do? You can Okay, so how about we wear a visor, we wear a helmet on a visor, that could maybe if you're lucky, mitigate the effects of births right through the windshields, to the fact that you're not gonna face a pilot incapacitation anymore. So I think that's a good way of seeing it and kind of being aware of what mitigating actions you're putting in place and how that kind of affects the whole scenario. And I think the most important thing for all pilots is, I mean, we don't have any formalized procedure for doing risk assessments for every operation we do we have standard risk assessment for standard operations. And especially in utility, I think there are so many variables, depending on you know, just the just the weather, you know, the on that time and place in those conditions in that valley with wicked wind checks and all that so it's impossible to do a risk assessment for every scenario you you encounter. So in my opinion, it's as much about making people accustomed to kind of doing these things in their head as they're flying flying and, and especially what you were saying about you know, you have you have several risk factors, but when those accumulate, you know, he, that's when you go into the red, you know, overall, and you can deal with maybe one or two or three of those things and that's fine, but all of a sudden, you have like six various fields of the operations that is kind of borderline you know, you have you didn't sleep well, you have loadmaster with you who's, yeah, his first job, first week on the job, as as a solo loadmaster or the weather is really bad. And you're mounting a cell phone tower, for example. And it's just, you know, one of those factors could be okay. But then you start to, to add those and, and seeing as it's impossible to kind of do all these things like formalized and advanced, I think it's up to the pilots to kind of be aware of these things. And, and you can do that easily. And you can also, the best way I find is to breed that in the crew, kind of see what, okay, so there are a lot of things that are kind of not going our way now. So we got to take a step back and maybe sit tight and see if we should postpone this thing. Or if there are other things we can do to kind of mitigate the risks, right. And like you said, we do these risk assessments before the flight. But it's also something that we're constantly doing while we're flying. Right, that's something that we do need to get accustomed to, we're making a million decisions throughout a flight. And it's nice to have sort of an organized way to assess your risk always going on in the back of your head while you're flying, right, the pave model pilot aircraft environment, external pressures, these are all things that we should be assessing and reevaluating, constantly, while we're flying. And if any of those things gets beyond an acceptable amount of risk, trying to figure out ways to mitigate those items. So you're flying along, you're running into some weather, you're still within your personal and company minimums and legal minimums. But what can you do to mitigate the risks of accidentally flying into IMC and not get disoriented, Alright, I'm gonna slow down my airspeed, I'm gonna throw on my autopilot, doing those two things, those are already helping to bring the risk factor down on a single fight, perhaps, you know, there are so many little variables that you have to consider. And I think it's important to to be aware of those decisions at all times, because you never know. I mean, you could you may have done. I mean, there are pilots that are there for 9000 hours, they've done this thing their way their entire career, and it's been fine. But then one day, the Swiss Jesus, you know, align, and they have an accident, I mean, just because it's been fine. The other times doesn't mean it will be fine. Every time. So making sure that the decisions you make are sound, even though they might maybe just a minor minor distinction, like for instance, we add our main base, we we taxi out onto more or less by the threshold end of one of the runway, so you could either choose to depart to the east, which gives you probably 100 meters of runway and 300 feet. And then opposite you could you have maybe 1400 feet of runway, you know, so why not? Why if there are no wind conditions or anything like that, why wouldn't you then choose to go? Do the even though it takes you longer to fly the long way and us through the runway? Why won't you do that? Instead of taking the risk of flying, you know, it's, you know, a dirty takeoff, if you want to call it that, instead of doing a textbook takeoff, it's gonna take you maybe a minute or two longer, but this could be the first part of the day, maybe you know, after a maintenance has been done or something. So I think it's prudent whenever you can to see okay, it might take me a minute longer to do it this way. But if something happens, I'll be in a much better position to get myself out of it. If it does. So, just kind of making sure that you plan to mess up a little bit. You know, it's not that, you know, I'm I mean, I I'm so forgetful I leave things. I mean, I would Yeah, I would definitely forget where I put the keys if it wasn't for the fact that I know that I'm forgetful. So I never leave my keys anywhere but in my pocket or on my counter here. So I kind of try to mitigate the fact that I'm, I'm forgetful when it comes to stuff like that. So I have to make sure that I have routines to mitigate that. Yeah. And it's kind of a sliding rule too. Because, you know, depending on what equipment you're in, like, you know, I fly multiple different types of aircraft and sometimes you just have to like take a minute and be like, Okay, what am I doing right now? Okay, yeah, I'm in the 109. I have two engines versus I'm getting into an AES 350 And I have one engine. So coming down to, you know, 100 foot hover and coming straight down. Hello PADD might be a little bit less of a risk and a multi engine than, you know an as 350. So definitely kind of taking a minute to just remember where you are what you're flying. Because once you get to a certain point, you're switching around to all different types of aircraft that different different types of takeoff says it changes over platforms and missions. So yeah, cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate your time. I know you're you're quick, you're super tired right now. You mentioned you didn't get much sleep, sleep lately. So I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down and talk to me and spark these conversations about safety and risk mitigation that hopefully will echo throughout the podcast fear and maybe reach the ears of somebody who needed to hear it today. Love your photography. I'm so excited to see you know, more stuff that you keep bringing out on Instagram. Definitely follow this guy at the helm. That helicopter guy on Instagram. Okay, thank you for having me. I know guys, I know. I missed Jose to super bummed he couldn't be here for this one. But it was such a pleasure to talk to Tom and hear his perspective and get his insight. And, man what a cool place to fly there in the Norwegian fjords. super jealous. And I know I had a couple of really nice takeaways from our conversation today. He really hit the nail on the head with it doesn't matter what job you have. It's how you do that job that counts. Of course the importance of doing a proper risk assessment before your flight and how it should be an ongoing constant thought process while you're flying. And of course taking that into your decision making process. It's been my absolute pleasure to do this interview for you guys today. Hopefully you got some awesome takeaways like I did from Tom. And go ahead hit that subscribe button leave a rating leave us a comment. Of course we love to hear from you guys. Fly safe out there and have a beautiful rest of your day. Bye