Stacy Sheard- HAI Mil to Civ

The lady of the hour, Stacy Sheard, currently sits as Chair of the board for HAI (Helicopter Association International). Her passion for uniting the international VTOL community, and her imagination for the possibilities that the future holds for this industry makes her an invaluable visionary for the AV family. She brings her extensive experience to the table as an Army veteran with time flying a wide range of helicopter platforms such as the UH-60, S76++, Bell 430, and the AW139. 
Her passion for mentoring has led her to teach workshops on the importance of networking at HAI's annual HeliExpo, and currently teaches a much needed military to civilian workshop for pilots transitioning from military to civilian pilot jobs. 
In this episode we discuss her experience, her visions for the future of VTOL, resume building & networking, and her Mil to Civ workshops. Stick around until the end of the episode, where Jose and I discuss our personal take on the future of pilot jobs, and provide names and dates of the top 3 aviation networking events of 2021-2022. 

Transcript

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You're listening to the forever on the fly podcast welcome everybody to episode number 10 numeral Yes. So the forever on the fly podcast, today's episode is gonna be supplemented in Espanol getting everybody your bi weekly dose of aviation inspiration, education and entertainment. My name is Jose, the name Diane and we're here to get you guys. Hey, aviation senorita yet a pretty interesting week I heard you put your hand on a helicopter door oh, it's not funny. I was taken out of like that is for a week give or take now I was and you know, it's unfortunate doesn't look that bad. It's gotten a lot better. It's been two weeks now. You know, the whole camp, you know, the green hole cam that the toy? Yeah, that's what it looks like. They did put me back on flight status, which is good. I'm glad to be back at it. But I got a week off and I got to go home and see my family. And it was my first time since COVID. So a little bit of a bittersweet thing. It really just shows the fragility of what we do. You hurt your hand on a helicopter door and you get taken out. And I Yeah, so be careful there folks. Yeah, guys, life is dangerous. I am so stoked to introduce the lady in the hour. She currently sits as chair of the board for H AI or helicopter Association International. If you guys are unfamiliar, she is an experienced Army veteran with extensive time flying Blackhawks, the F 76 for Children's Hospital in LA. And in fact, she was the production test pilot for Sikorsky for many years. And now she flies the 130 nines a W 139 for the corporate world. She also has a passion for sharing her knowledge on the importance of networking and currently teaches military to civilian workshops. And in this episode, we'll delve into her excitement and vision for vertical lift aircraft of the future. The military to civilian thing is so important. I have so many military pilots reach out to me and ask how do I transition to a civilian job and I don't have all the answers. So it's so awesome that Stacy's here to share her knowledge on that. And if you guys stick around at the end of the episode, we're going to give you guys information, dates and locations of some upcoming aviation networking events that hopefully you guys can look into and make an appearance. And now it is time to bring out our next guest. Miss Stacy shared, Stacey shared today, everybody's gonna have a cute little quad in their driveway. And we have to hold on to an infrastructure that everybody wants to tear away. Hi, I'm Stacey shared and I'm forever on the fly. JC cheered legendary. Stacey. Hi. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. I was listening to some earlier interviews that you guys did you did. Aaron with Cheryl. Yeah. And yeah, he I. I know him. I didn't know. I listened to some other ones. But he was the one person I did know. Yeah, he's pretty popular. Yeah. Such a cool dude. Yeah, I met him a long time ago. So he was he was popular just to me. It was a great interview to know. Thank you. I appreciate that. So you're currently in kind of towards the end of your year stint as h AIIS. Chair? How was this last year? Ben, it must have been so challenging with COVID. And how the industry just kind of got turned upside down? What were some of the challenges that you faced this last year holding that position? Well, it's just canceled, you know, it's the everything's getting canceled. And then you have to figure out how to do the same thing you do in person online. It's not you know, it's not the same. So so it's the it's the best, but it is the most Hai has done a wonderful job this year of getting online and doing more, you know, webinars and just getting out there and talking to people and getting people together to talk and then a lot of background networking. Because we have to, and I think everybody's having a little bit of withdrawals from not being around other people. So I know so heli Expo was supposed to be in New Orleans, and it was supposed to have just happened and I'm still supposed to be on the heli Expo high right now. And then after that, I usually hit Women in Aviation. So so both of them down, down not happening this year, except for online. February I happened on I was looking forward to New Orleans Ha is always a fun event to or heli Expo is always a really fun event to go to. And New Orleans would have been a good one. The last one I went to was, I went to Atlanta, and I'm actually from Atlanta. So it was kind of cool. I get to coincide that trip to see my family and go to the expo. Yeah, that was. That's great. Atlanta was a fun one. I enjoyed that. Because it doesn't often go to Atlanta. Yeah, but next year, Dallas, so there's that. Yeah. Like all the manufacturers you got? I'm definitely going to Airbus. There we go. I'm going to Dallas for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Me too. I mean, I feel like after this whole lockdown. I mean, I wanted to go to New Orleans. And now I just feel like we have to go Yeah. Party calls in sick so can you work that way? Cuz I think I'm going to be sick that week. That's amazing. So what do you guys both you're both flying at? Hello. Net. And so what are your flying organ? organ transplants? And that's in the Yes, ma'am. We're in the on the 109 in the 109. And sometimes the Twinstar. So yeah, we've been doing that. Jose does the news. I haven't gotten into the EMG side of things. I started off with charter. Yeah, no, no, definitely. I work with her. I do charters and like the organ transplants but I also do the EMG stuff. We also do VIP so it's a little bit slow right now on the VIP side. But it's starting to pick back up again, now that everything is starting to open back up. And so that's really good. Starting to see more stuff really being on the east coast. So in New York, it's starting to pick back up. You know, it's been kind of a ghost town. So it's a little eerie when you're in the air and there's no one else flying around and you use you're used to all this chatter. So for us, you know, we use we're on 2302 over the rivers here. And you know, you're used to all that well, not on the river. But you have the common traffic advisory and you're talking to each other and chit chatting and yeah, ghost quiet. Yeah, I would imagine what that busier space you know, it's kind of eerie. You're probably wondering if your radio works or not. I think probably one of the scariest landings that I've ever done was on the Hill, a pad on the East River. You get so close to the bridge. I was like, Are you serious? We're going even closer. I felt like the rotor disc tip was right at the edge of the bridge. And there's two other helicopters right beside you like you like think then think that? I think we could squeeze in here. But oh my gosh, it felt so sketchy. I guess I can remember my first time flying into East 34th Street to it's a tight fit. And I remember coming in and there's two helicopters running on either side of me. And you know, okay, just, you know. Yeah, don't get it right in that. So, yeah, I think yeah. And in that, you know, a lot of times when you depart out of that heliport, sometimes you may have a bit of a tailwind or something, but you have not a lot of options when you're when you're together that way other than backing out backing out. Yeah, I'm sure in the summer that can be challenging if you're close to max and it's hot. I mean, I know New York is really hot, but it's just absolutely, yeah. So in that in those cases, some people wait, they'll wait for someone else to depart. And then maybe a little taxi around and then yeah, right on. Well, tell us a little bit about yourself. Let's get to know Stacy, how did you first get involved with aviation? And where did you find your passion for it? Well, so I grew up in Clovis, California. I was born in Fresno. No, yeah. Yeah, I've been there. I went to the rodeo. I'm from Clovis, and I, I grew up there. And I can remember as you know, being an 1112 year old watching the helicopters fly over me to go to the fires in the summer. So I lived in the San Joaquin Valley, and it's all agriculture there. So there was a heliport not far as a few miles down the way for down the wave from me called Rogers helicopters, which is still around, and I rode my bicycle there. I was probably 12 or something. And I asked him for a job and I just said, you know, I'll do anything. I'll sweep the hangar and clean just to be near the helicopters. So that was the beginning. I just sort of watched him fly over and thought I want to be in one of those going somewhere, you know, away from here. So So yeah, that's, that's where I ended up. That's the way Yeah, Awesome. take you away, did they? Did they give you a job at Rogers? Did they know they had gone on. So I went and I flew tours in the Grand Canyon. I worked for Sundance. And then you know, I was in the army. But I do have a huge appreciation for military, obviously. And I do a lot of military to civilian transitioning. So typically, in the past, I had been one of the cohorts that run the military to civilian workshop transition workshop at the heli Expo. I know, I've had so many people approached me because I mean, I was in the Coast Guard, but didn't fly in the Coast Guard. So I didn't I don't know anything really about transitioning from military pilot to civilian pilots. So that's going to be really useful information to people. I get so many requests. I'm like, I really don't know. I'm so sorry. So, yeah, but you don't know. But you know, you know, the right people. The right people. We know Stacy. Yeah. A lot more than me. But yeah, I mean, it really you're only ever one person away from having an answer anywhere in this industry. So very true. That's a common thing. But yeah, I mean, I can i There are tons of mentors out there. And you're probably one of them. You don't have to have been in the military in order to mentor people transitioning out of the military, not at all. So you went from flying in the military transitioning into tours in the Grand Canyon flying for Sundance, and then where did you go after that? Then I went to hell in it and I flew the s 76. Eight plus plus for Children's Hospital Los Angeles and did a little bit of news on the side here and there and some corporate VIP stuff and organ transplant, things like that. After that, I went to work for elite aviation. They had one helicopter and a whole bunch of jets. And I worked there and I was a single pilot IFR, Captain Annabelle, for 30. The recession hit and downturn happened. And I had been attending heli expos every year. And just about at the same time, they sold their helicopter I was I had been talking to Sikorsky at the time and I got hired by Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. So I spent the next seven years as a production test pilot for Sikorsky. Wow, that's so impressive. That is impressive, man. I don't like the rain man. It was it was a great job. And there was a there was a lot of variety. I loved it. And after that, I went to work to fly an AWS 139. So in Augusta for mass mutual up in outside of Boston in Massachusetts, and then I came back, Sikorsky is based the the commercial side of Sikorsky is based just outside of Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania. So I was here in PA for about seven years, went up to Massachusetts, and then and then someone called me about an acoustic 139 job back in Philly. And that's where I am today. So I came back. And it was a great opportunity. And it was a hard one to pass up. So I took the opportunity, and I've been here ever since on the side I this year, I'm the chair of the helicopter Association internationals board of directors. And this is let's see, I'm in my fifth year on the board of directors and then next year will be my probably final year, I would imagine six years is probably it's probably good for a board of directors because there are other boards out there and other other avenues that I like to pursue pursue, like out in Los Angeles, I was just this morning on a meeting with SoCal rotors. And so I still attend those the old phpa. And then out here we have the Eastern Region helicopter council. So I like to attend the meetings out here too. And there is a lot about the routing structures and the you know, the noise issues that we experience in big metropolitan areas like New York City and Hamptons, and all that. Very, very similar to Los Angeles. Yeah, we have a lot of noise issues here. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know, we get lots of complaints. But we do our best to find neighborly and have some unspecified routes, or at least try to change up the routes. You know, if we went one direction going to a hospital, we'll go around the different way and try not to fly over the same houses twice and try not to piss off too many people. Because that's never good for business. We thought it was cool. Like when I like when I was a kid like you, you know, like you look up and you hear a helicopter. I'm like, Oh my God, that's pretty cool. I never understand like, you right? And you're looking up and you're like, oh, where's it going? Yeah, I mean Mix and match, you can, you know, it's always your trading, hey, you're taking away noise from someone else and probably gifting it to the next neighbor. Or gifting it. Like, you know what, the next time we get a noise complaint, I'm just gonna tell the chief just tell them that we're gifting them this beautiful view of a helicopter, a lot of people don't get to see them. So it's a once in a lifetime opportunity. It's a pitch, you got to pitch it to them. And yeah, often when I was in LA, they didn't know why they would call up. And, you know, and you'd have to answer for it. And so I remember saying I, I had to fly low, I'm really, really sorry, I had a child on board, they can't breathe. If the higher you fly, the more difficult it is for them to breathe. So that was the best flying Air Ambulance is just very helpful because at least someone says, oh, I read in the article for rotor magazine had a lot of really awesome information about your background and your journey and the things that you're doing for H AI. And one thing that you mentioned was how H AI is really focused on uniting the global helicopter community. And what are some things that you see are beneficial and doing that? And what are some of the goals that you've had while you've been chair of H AI to accomplish that? Well, I think we started the year with a lot of goals who which kind of had to push aside all the great changes that we've had this year. And one of them is really it is zoom or, or this kind of conversation because I've spoken probably with more people than I ever would have before the Zoom age. Yeah, the International Partnership Program is a really a great endeavor. Last year, the chair of the HDI board was Jan Becker, who is Australian and and the Becker's own a helicopter company in Australia. And so, basically, it was we are a global, we are such a small industry. And we are very connected. If you've been to heli Expo, you've probably met international members of H AI. And and there are a lot of similar issues that we may have solved in one in one country and have a great answer for solving a problem and can just show you know, so someone doesn't have to, you know, rewrite a manual or figure out a new, you know, reinventing the wheel each time is never a good thing. So they can take good information and use it in their country. So, so I think right now, one of the big countries that we're trying to create an alliance with is India. They, you know, they have it's, it's all I've flown in India, when I worked for Sikorsky and it is very much an airplane society and it's very rigid. You know, I never took off present position from an airport, there are all these small little issues that could make flying so much easier. Everything was IFR, you had to file IFR everywhere you went. So, you know, there is going into the future, you know where we are now, with general aviation, where we are one of the best places to be in general aviation, just because we have such freedoms here. Well, they don't have the same freedoms in a lot of other places. And and and there's also not a lot of access to general aviation and a lot of other places just because of the money and the lack of sponsors sponsorship, or teaching or training someone how to fly, it's expensive. And they have to look for sponsors with money. And so hai Women in Aviation internationals, all these organizations that really try to push forward scholarships and sponsorships and some way to globally unite to get the global aviation community in the air flying in every country to be able to display it down pilots and maintenance technicians and everybody on their own. And how do you do it? And what are the best ways? How do you train, so we have that information. And instead of just, you know, holding on to the knowledge and not letting anybody else know, I think it's all about just sharing your knowledge with everyone else make it easier for them. So that's in essence, that's what it is. And also it makes them stronger. I think a country that has a small general aviation industry that's just starting to build up, they can say they have the backing of, you know, say the NCAA Mi CHai or a Opa, you know, that they are consulting with and and this is where all of these rules come from. And it helps you know, governments that are starting down this road, it helps them to put rules that is similar to ours in place. So they can facilitate so it doesn't take years and years and years to come up with new rulings. Like I mean, the FAA, typically it can take years to come up with a new rule. It is unusual lately that for the urban Air Mobility infrastructure, they've been able to put out rules a lot faster, because they need to Keep up because it's growing so quickly. So, so we've been able to get better just as you know, the FAA. So it's, it's been, it's been a great couple of years, actually, to get us on a speed track, urban Air Mobility is just kind of pushing us. So so it's great. It's great to be pushed by technology. I mean, similar with Tesla. So yeah, I think it's great. And, you know, and people might laugh, but truly, I don't know, if you remember the Jetsons? Yeah, everybody's gonna have a cute little quad in their driveway, totally, you're gonna want to go somewhere. And we have to hold on to an infrastructure that everybody wants to tear away. Because it's, you know, helicopter is not accessible to the common citizen person. Yeah, the common New Yorker can't afford a helicopter flight over to JFK, or a helicopter flight from say, Burbank over to La x to get on their plane and miss all the traffic. So they don't have that access, but what it's becoming more accessible. And in one day, it'll be quieter, and it'll be more electric. And it will transport people without roads, some of the heavy toll stuff that they're starting to produce, and oh, man, it's kind of insane. That's crazy. The world has gotten so crowded, and traffic has gotten so bad, I think anybody's looking for a way to get to their destinations faster and cheaper and more efficiently. And the infrastructure is there, it's just yeah, it is there, it's just finding a way for all these aircraft to fly through the air. And practice avoidance of, you know, like, we can avoid obstacles, with our equipment, with equipment that's installed on our aircraft. And if you fly drones or anything like that, you know that they have obstacle avoidance built in. So these things built into the future aircraft are going to be flying around, are going to be huge, you know, and increasing safety and all of these things, you know, but the infrastructure that we have now, the big job is preserving it for what is to come. And that's what's coming, you know, verta ports, and, you know, small quads, and all of these things are going to become cheaper and cheaper and more and more accessible. So, so it is it's so one of our big battles, like in Los Angeles, it's the same in New York, I think most people don't understand we're preserving the hell imports. Because we need that infrastructure. Because what's coming is going to meet it and more. Is there a lot of pressure to shut down? Hello ports? And because it because of noise? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, huge pressures. And, but at the same time, they want their Amazon packages, and those are going to start coming, you know, in, it's not going to be long before they're going to be coming by through air, right through a drone dropping off packages, or at least to a central point. So So yeah, I mean, things are moving quickly. And I think the average person, you know, can't even envision it. So why would you even think of preserving infrastructure now? Because you know, as I know, once an airport goes away, doesn't ever come back. Right? It's rare for I mean, who's building new airports anywhere? Yeah, you're right. Yeah, they go away. They don't come back. Yeah, we're kind of waiting to see what happens with Santa Monica airport over here. There's so much pressure. I mean, I think they were saying it's gonna be shut down by 2018. They were talking about it. Yeah, they want to shut it down by I think 2022. But I don't see it happening. Just because like, I think le X needs that buffer. You know, like, before you actually get into the Bravo, I think like that delta serves as like a way to go off. You know, what it does is all it does is add more pressure to all the other airports. It makes all the other places noisier. So and I don't think I think they stopped, stopped accepting government funds at Santa Monica, with the idea of closing down but then they didn't have a good closing down plan. And that could be part of it, too. We're dealing with the same thing on the east coast with East Hampton airport. They don't want to accept any more funds so that they can shut down. They're scheduled to shut down this year, I believe it is yes, this year in September. And if they shut that down, you know what it does, it just increases the pressure on all the other airports around it, business moves and the noise doesn't really go away. It just pushes it around around so you don't really solve the problem that they were after. It just pushes it to other areas. Well, we'll see how that ends up as well. We've got the same thing out here. And I remember Santa Monica was an issue even when I was flying in LA so it's always been an issue. I mean, so much stuff going on. But yeah, preserving it's going to be important because all those people it's not going to be long till there's two person quads or those four person quads are going to be something they want to they want to fly around. I can't wait for that to happen. Like you're talking about it, I'm like, Yes, I can absolutely see that I can see, I can see you program you get in, you program your GPS, where you're going. And the ATC system schedules this GPS flight plan for you at an altitude and an airspeed and everything to keep you safe. And you've got obstacle, you know, you've got all of your proximity devices on board that keeps you from hitting anything, if they've got you low level, and an aircraft is coming, it'll call it out, and I'll make adjustments, you know, so like an advanced tee cast system. And this is the general public that maybe doesn't have that, you know, you're used to driving a car, but you're not used to having a look below you. And you know, and all these other places that normal people that drive in a car don't look. So it's going to be a transition. And the best way to do that, I think is just the plan someone's GPS routing, send them on their way and get them there safely. And they may have to wait for a window to jump in on their on their track. So I think it's great. And I think that it does help with the roads, there's definitely a traffic issue in LA. How far out do you imagine this type of a massive transition would take you know from now, how many years from now, do you think before we actually get there? Well, I think that the technology, once again, is going to push the FAA, it is pushing the FAA and it is pushing. Many manufacturers are pushing system. And it's great though, because you know, you don't want to wait on the system to create all the rules before the technology comes. We kind of have to adjust as we go and adapt as we go. You know, just from the meetings, I attended the people I listened to I know in the next five years in the next what 10 years or so we're not looking at pilots to go away. Not at this point, what we're looking at is, you know, is packages being delivered, and piloted aircraft to take people around maybe with hybrid or partially electric vehicles to start with, I think that there's going to be a transitionary period but the technology once it it's already taking off. So once it once it takes hold, and and a lot of other people start getting into the game, yeah, straight up, that curve is going to go so fast. And if you're already a Vitol pilot, which we are, then that's where you're headed, you know that there are people are going to be looking for pilots. So just like people, you know, the people were looking for drone or UAS pilots, they're still going to be looking for veto pilots. So if you look around Bell helicopters changed their name there now Bell, you know, if you Hai is in the process of looking at, you know, a name change, because the future is not just helicopter, the future is everything vertical takeoff and land, that those are that's where we're going, we're going just anything vertical. And who knows what what that's going to look like. But I think opening up to that and, and going through that transition is is where we are especially younger people getting into the industry now. You know, worried about it, they're worried about all kinds of issues like jobs and everything else. I think it's the rails are greased. Jump on, because this is an industry, this is an industry that you will be needed in, you know, if you can fly an aircraft that hovers. I think they're just going to get easier and easier to fly. Yeah. So as you guys probably know, the more advanced aircraft you get in it's actually easier, easier, you know, the bigger the aircraft and the more automation it has, it's all of a sudden you're like, oh, I don't have to do anything. Yeah, I have nightmares all the time that I have to jump back in an AR 22. And I'm like, I don't know how to play and sing anymore. You should have saw me singing it. I started instructing again, part time when the first time I got up with one of my good friends is an instructor and the chief pilot at this place and I got to put them in the 44. And when I picked up I was like, what is happening? I thought I was like such a noob I was like, Hey, don't judge me. Don't don't judge. I'm getting this hold on. Just give me a couple minutes. You know, it's awesome for you to do it to go back and appreciate where you came from. And it's a big deal. I mean, for me coming from the military. I flew large aircraft from the start I flew a YUI you know, all through flight school. So you know the single engine turbine I didn't know that, that civilian pilots on the outside were flying our 20 twos or Schweitzer's and then later after all of that I went to fly a Schweitzer to get my CFI and the appreciation was quick for me. Yeah, okay, I see. I see what all the hubbub was about. I got it. Yeah, it is. It's, it's different. Yeah. So yeah, I have a total appreciation for both sides. So I think I think this civilian train background and a military background, that we both have so many different skills, and together working with all these different people that bring different skills to the table, just really makes a well rounded workplace when you all come from different places with different experiences the pool from I think it's perfect. Yeah, I love it. Well, Justin, out there on Instagram. I hope that answered your question. I got a guy asking me today what I thought the industry was gonna look like in 10 to 15 years. I'm like, I don't know. It changes year to year. But you know, this is actually you know, hopefully, hopefully, this helps you out out there. I can't wait for those quads. You're talking about them. I know, I'm gonna buy one of those ASAP. I know it's exciting. It was a few years ago at the heli Expo. There was this little quad it was like a matte blue. It was gorgeous, I think have a picture of it on my phone. And they had a video with a guy in a flight suit test flying it. It was a two seater. And I was like, Where'd you fly it? Yeah, I wanted all the oh, we just flew it. We tracked it in here. But we've been flying test flying it and it flies great. And then we're just working out, you know, all the different issues that come. So I mean, the technology is amazing. And and the hybrid technology and the backup, you know, when something fails, you know, this is gonna back it up was with coaxial you know, you got to rotor systems. If one goes out, you've got one that picks up speed, you know, for your RPM and the others that compensate. So the emergency procedures are already being worked through. And it is amazing. I mean, all that test stuff. I can absolutely geek out when I listen to someone talk about you know, the failures. And this happened. And we did this and this is when we discovered something so failures is like an opportunity to learn learn. I love this. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I don't want to be bothered for that. I appreciate you wherever you're at in the world. You wouldn't pay me enough for the for the beta two Sure, it'll all be worked out and they're all automatically adjust rpm and everything and then it probably you'll hit a home button and it'll take you to a nice beautiful little landing spot in your driveway. Yeah, I mean, the, my buddy has a serious jet, the SF 50. And there's a RTB button just a return to base of the pilot becomes incapacitated, all the passenger has to do is just hit that red button. And it'll find the nearest approach bring you all the way down to the runway shut down the engines on the runway and just completely hands off. It's kind of insane, but I would imagine that same kind of technology would be used. It's pretty bad. It's pretty cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool. It makes me feel real safe. Yeah, I'd be like I'm gonna go IMC you get woken up by the wheels hitting the runway just like Oh god. Oh, we're here. Crazy. Welcome back, everybody. Thank you for flying sleepy air. So for all those questions, people that are worried about should I be studying to become a pilot or paying all this money to become a pilot because it looks like we're not going to need pilots? Well, I think we're going to need pilots for a while a lot of time, people are going to be ready for another airlines we're talking about going down to lease like single pilot with all the automation and everything Wheezy Yeah, but people aren't like ready for that even Yeah, and I think that's the big point is that is that you have to you have to make people comfortable. So in that they're gonna want to make everyone feel as safe as possible and two pilots a trained crew one to backup the other I mean that's that's perfect. So I mean, I'm sure there are many aircraft a single pilot can fly and land just fine but having to is just that extra insurance that every person that pays for an airline ticket once know for sure what I when I was flying for the regionals i i really liked the crew dynamic of flying and just having like these checks, checks and balances and the standards like upheld so like it was just it was comforting to know that everything had a yes or no there was no gray area. It was like this is what we're doing and that's that, you know, so like it was take the stress out of it. It does parents but no, I wonder just with younger generations that are growing up Gen Z and below growing up with some much technology. I wonder if Phil be a little bit more on board with going into more automation and maybe single pilot kids growing up with all the drones these days? Yeah, they're open to it. I mean, you know, in the reverse to look how quickly they adapted to math, they without question, they'll just put their masks on. So anything can become normal. So it's the good, the bad. And that's what I thought all the little kids like they know exactly when they put those masks on. Exactly. When they can take them off. They're much better at this than we are. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. They just kind of go with it. Oh, this is the new normal. Okay. Okay, I guess that's what we're doing. I know, I saw an actual robot going down the street the other day on Main Street in Santa Monica. Like a little square robot with an antenna sticking up and like, Oh, my God, we're there. We have robots going down the street and stopping at crosswalks. Like what is happening? It's like this new food delivery system that they're trying out, which I'm sure there's some guy sitting at home with, you know, in his mom's basement with a remote control of delivering food to people with this little robot thing, but it was so cute. But yeah, it was definitely a sign of the times, like oh my god, I felt the same way. I was down in Santa Monica and I saw robot dog. Like it was just like walking around. I'm like, What the heck is like it was like a robot, you know? The What is it the HAI award for for Oregon trance transport. So H AI, we had to get the board had to change the ruling process. Because it's only ever been helicopters that can you know, helicopter associated companies that can win these awards. We've had to change it to urban air mobility or unmanned or drone. And they were able to win an award by doing an organ transplant that was in a University of Maryland, right? I believe. Yeah, I know. I remember seeing that and just thinking I'm out of the job. concept though, just flies, GPS, say frog. Maybe you couldn't fly in fog and land on the heliport or whatever, you know, whatever the case may be, or it's too risky to send humans. So you send a drone and try to turn down many flights for weather. Even just hopping over the hill from Van Nuys to Santa Monica, on the other side of the hill, marine layer rolls in and boom, completely engulfs UCLA, and you can't land there. So I mean, that would be an amazing alternative. When we finally get there. Yeah. And I think that the GPS routing and approach procedures, so right, so for my company, for instance, we have a hell pad. And during bad weather, we couldn't get to it. So we it's took about a year is a year long process to get a point in space, a GPS points, space approach directly to our helo pad. And, and that process, the length of it. And you know, if flying a helicopter into it, perhaps that whole process gets automated and sped up for future aircraft, because there's going to be so many more of them. And they are going to point in space locations, they're not going to order in airports, where they can be 12 different approaches for that airport, they're going to appoint on top of a hospital. And so air ambulance companies create approaches to their hospitals. So quads and what everything's going to be using those approaches, and more will have to be created. So the infrastructure needs to grow. So it's, yeah, it's exciting times, there's a lot to do. And if you are, you're good with algorithms, and you understand aviation, and you like how approaches work. There's work there's work for you in the future, to make these point space GPS approaches. How long was the process about a year now? It was about a year and it's we have a little heliport, it's a hell pad actually just north of Philadelphia, there's, there's an airport about four miles to the north of us. So what we were doing was we would do the GPS, you know, approach into the airport, and then we'd hang a left and fly underneath the this the cloud ceiling for four miles until we made it. Well, some days that can get pretty sketchy. So what we needed was an approach where we break out where we see the pad. And if we don't we just go around. So so that's what we have, and it has paid itself off in spades. Yeah, I mean, I think it costs you know, probably a little over $30,000 By the end of it, but the the time and the money and everything. It saved us that many times that we've gotten to use it. It's just something that we'd never go back. How high is the minimum where you guys to break out, give us a ceiling DGL this runs at about just over 600 feet, so it's not as low as you can get, but and the reason why is we're we're in a kind of a ridge Valley, there's a river there. The thing is, is, from the airport, there are antennas and hilly areas in between for four miles, if four miles doesn't sound like a lot, but when weather and visibility have dropped considerably, you don't want to be flying around all of those things. You know, as you're going lower and lower and slower and slower, you're like clenching your mouth salivating. You're like, I don't know. Yeah, so yeah, this is part of being a helicopter pilot is these are considerations that don't often come up when you're, I mean, I'm sorry, but airline pilots don't make the approach into LA x, and then hang left to go park it in somebody's you know, on the top of the building or, you know, on a, you know, on a hella pad somewhere. And, and I remember I have a memory of flying in, I was on I was on a copter approach into one of the major airports out here in guardia and we flew the approach, and then hung right. And I beelined it for East 34th Street. And the guy was with had been flying jets for the last 12 years. And he said, How do you know where to go? From there? Yeah, you break off of the approach and there's no lighting configuration to lead you there. There's no runway lighting, there's nothing. And I said, Well, we just went from IMC to, you know, VMC you know, I know where it is. There's a building. There's a river that you know, and I'm dead reckoning at this point plus I have a GPS area that you fly in, and then we'll take off VFR down the river and then we go to the middle of the river and we pop back up into the clouds and join an IFR route to get out of the city. So this VFR IFR to VFR is not something that's really that you're doing in the airlines. It's a completely different mindset and and you have to prepare for it. Otherwise, it'd be like, yeah, there's a fun way. I've just broke out. Now I can see this big, giant happy airport that's drawing me in, but I can't land there. I mean, this is how we operate. But this isn't what typical airline people. They're like you did what? And then you went VFR for the next three miles. So so it is it's different, it's a different, it's a different kind of flying. And that sort of automation that gets you to that point, it'll be good. In the future. If it gets you GPS, you know, exactly to where you are, yeah, exactly where you need to go. Because in the future, people aren't going to be professional pilots, but they may have you know, an aircraft, so it'll have to be a little bit it'll have to be some sort of road in the sky. Whether that's a green line your aircraft is is following or some images so you the boxes that you shouldn't approach down through your spidey senses to get to where you need to go are so on point. Just be like I just You were supposed to fly. Oh, there's the help or crazy. Wow, how did you do it? Just that good. Use a little Kentucky windage. Yeah. When did you know like when you're shooting? Oh, no, I don't. Nevermind. That's a different different episode. Got it. Got it. Yeah. Hello. I did shoot expert while I was in the Coast Guard. I did. I had good aim. She showed me a postcard and what were you? I was in the army as well. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was Army. Yeah, I was, uh, I was in the 82nd for about five years. And okay, yeah, that was a grunt though. So I didn't fly. Okay. No, I mean, there's a lot of I have a friend of mine. That was Coast Guard. She wasn't a pilot in the Coast Guard. But she came out and she does military to civilian and she's now a pilot though. But she was a crew. She's a crew member while she was in Oh, yeah, yeah, I wanted to go aviation. But at the time, it was moving. So slowly. I joined went to boot camp, and then they got sent to a station as a non rate and they told me it was going to be two years until I could get into an aviation related job. So that was half of my enlistment. So it didn't really make sense for me to go that direction. And I just became a mechanic at the station that I was at was messy, and I just needed to get out of there. So I threw my name on the quickest list to get out of there. I was a wrench Turner. Yeah, basically, they really go I think that there's a leak down there in the build your small right like there's 30 foot seas out here. Yeah, you'll be fine on my legs. Gonna try to figure out where this stupid leak is. Yeah, it was a miserable existence. I really hated my Not gonna lie. But you know, and in 2011, they opened up everybody's contract and they said, if you want to get out, you can get out. They had a huge budget cut for Homeland Security. And I was planning on getting out early. And then Deepwater Horizon happened. And I was stationed on a patrol about out of Miami and you're not going anywhere. So we ended up having to go to Pascagoula, Mississippi for three months patrolling the outside of the oil spill. And but when I when I got out, a couple years later, I ended up going to flight school and getting it all paid for which was, you know, Primo? Yeah, I think I probably had over$200,000 worth of flight training paid for by the GI Bill, between helicopter and airplane training. Wow. Yeah, I had a NVG course I did turbine transition. Yeah. This was back in the day when the VA was actually willing to pay for all this stuff. And yeah, you know, nowadays, they've pulled out of a lot of schools, a lot of schools are taking advantage of the VA and kind of ruined it for everybody. So there's still a couple of universities out there that have pretty solid flight programs that people can do use the GI bill for, like Southern Utah University leading edge leading edge, Oregon. Yeah. So Stacey, I remember reading in the rotor magazine article about you that you used to teach a class on networking at heli Expo. And you also teach a mil to civilian class that teaches people what to expect when you're transitioning from military flying to civilian flying, which is really important, because there's not a lot of resources out there for that. We talked a lot about networking and mentorship in this podcast, but coming from an expert such as yourself, what are some of your pointers advice when it comes to networking in this industry? And can you tell us a little bit about the military to civilian workshops that you put on, you need a network of people with similar interests to help advise and guide you along? Certainly, you know, anyone can do this on their own. But this is such a small aviation in general is such a small industry. And and basically, we all share a similar passion. So when it gets down to it, if you walk up to someone in aviation, they have similar passionate as you. And they may not realize it, but they everyone has the ability to mentor someone else, even if they don't feel like they're experienced enough to be a mentor. They are. So if you have a mentor, if you're networking, if you're talking to other people that you see some somebody doing something you want to do. And you ask them, Hey, how did you get to where you are? What, you know, how did you get there? What did you do, find out what they did, and and ask them for advice. And then you'll get on the road to the place you want to be in a shorter amount of time. Truly. And along the way, you can do the same thing for everybody else that's following you up. Because why figure it out all by yourself, when there's just this huge number of people out there that love this industry so much love what they do, and just want to share it with you and show you how to do it. I don't think there's not too many people out there that wouldn't reveal, you know, everything they know, to help somebody else to save them a little bit of time or trouble or help somebody else out. I know that for military to civilian transitions, it's this huge thing. You know, I was I was transitioning out of the military, I had no idea. You know, what was required, what my resume should look like, I could piece together how to maybe show up for an interview, how to dress, I didn't know the questions exactly what they were going to ask me what that might entail. I didn't know I might go on a flight. There are a number of things I didn't know. So why not ask somebody, why not have someone that does the hiring for that company, because they will be willing to prepare you and get you ready for interviews. I have a number of friends that do hiring for different companies. And they can be reached and found on LinkedIn. And you just ask them questions, and they'll help you. So yeah, the information is there, all you have to do is make the first step and ask a question and ask a question. And, and especially resumes. You know, that's that's one of the big things I have several articles on my LinkedIn profile. And one of them is resumes that include kind of military to civilian, here's how it should look. Here's it should be one page should be very clean, easy to read, not too messy, not full of all that military fluff. You know, if you were a nuclear, biological chemical, trainer and officer, whatever, yeah, it's probably not something a helicopter operator would be looking for. So you might be able to leave that off. So There's a number of questions so and logging time, that's a big one in the military. Most, I would say most pilots don't keep their own logbook in the military, they let the military keep it for them. And in that the military doesn't keep it in accordance with the FA Rs. Even though most military pilots have a pilot's certificate, after they graduate, they go and get their pilot's certificate. So they are an FAA certificated pilot, and they're not keeping a logbook in accordance with the FA Rs. It's just stuff you don't know until you get out. Wow. Yeah, I didn't know that. I didn't know that stuff you don't know. And then there's a lot of questions even, you know, it's funny. I've been on the civilian side for a long time now. And I've had civilian trained pilots asked me well, you know, I've noticed that we hired a pilot that came out of, you know, the military. And, you know, they're never flying directly from the airport to the location that we've asked them to go there. They're going outside of airspace, you know, they're not talking to anyone, they're not flying a to b, they're kind of circumnavigating airspace and things like that. And it's like, oh, well, depending on you know, what service they were in, perhaps they are shy to talk to, you know, terror controllers, or don't understand the concept or that time is money here. Because in the military, you know, you plan to leave at a certain time and arrive at a certain time how you get there. If it's not a to b may not be as big of a deal. But on the civilian side, it's about making, you're making money. It's a very expensive aircraft. This is a lot of fuel costs. If you can fly a to b, well, you should be you're going to be called into the office like so. Are you doing on where you come from? You might, you might think about how you do things in a different way. So you know, and I said, Well, just mention it to them. Tell them don't be shy, no direct. That's how we do it, you know, and there's just a lot of little, tiny, peculiar things that you might see a military trained person do, just because that's how they learned how to do it. That's what the primacy. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's a transition to learn that, oh, this is another way. And it actually works pretty well. And it's what the bosses want me to do. Right? So do what they say. Yeah, so it's just a lot of little things and, and the transition, it's bigger than just than actually flying. It's leaving the military and you're leaving after many, many years of someone your paycheck arriving on time, you know, what you're going to wear to work every day, you know where to go, if you get sick, you know, where the dentist is, you know, where everything is, everything's, you know, you pay for it, but it's paid for, and you're getting out, you have no medical insurance, no, dentist, no, you know, you're gonna have to find a job, make a living and pay your rent or your mortgage, you lose all that security, it's a scary thing. And, and it's it takes it's a transition, it's something that needs to be prepared for. And not everybody knows everything that's coming. And not everybody knows how expensive life is or can be. So you know, when you've lived in that, and both of you know, you lived in that military life, it's sort of a small little utopia. Everything's taken care of, you know what to expect. You get orders for the next place. Movers come take your stuff. You know, it's all done. And it's very orderly, and you get out of the military. And it's chaos. Yeah. You have to do everything. You don't even know where to start. So it's it's scary and confusing. And there's there doesn't seem to be any order to it. And so I think that's a big thing for a lot of people getting out. Do you have any webinars coming up currently for military to civilian transition? I did one there's a there's currently one webinar that's in the the logs for milta Civ this year. I think they are coming out with the another one. And I think we're going to try to get some different people on it this time. But I think there were about four or five of us on on the last one. So milta says, you know hai webinar, it's on the website with a lot of other webinars depending on your interests, what you want to listen to and watch. But yeah, and all of the people usually in every one of the webinars at AGI they'll put their LinkedIn, you know, you can access them and ask them questions. So that's great. That's a great resource. Yeah, that is really good. And your LinkedIn profile. You said you had a couple of resources for people as well. Your resume template, yeah, resume templates. You're totally connected across the board in the industry. So I'm sure people out there will be able to connect with you somehow. Or like one degree of separation in this industry. All right. I have tons of I have at least two resume templates for maintenance technicians and also for helicopter pilots. They, you anybody can use them. You don't have to come from the military. But they're built to kind of help military people see what it's supposed to look like and what they can make theirs look like, for civilian people use the same kind of template, you know, and it's pretty simple. I write an article on one page clean. Here's the information from the top to the bottom what you know what should have in it. Because honestly, when you're looking for a job, a resume is a great thing. You want it to reflect who you are, and you want it to look just great. But a resume is honestly a formality. How you want to get the job is you want to network, right? You want to show up, you want to shake hands, you want to put a face in front of the resume and say, Hi, this is me. Every job that I've gotten so far in aviation has been through somebody. And I think networking is really a nice thing. I would pretty much follow her every every job. She does like one year later. I'm there. That's fine. I'm like, I got you. I got a bad day hiring over there like seriously? Yes, yes, they are. Yeah. We were flight instructors in Long Beach together. And then I went out to fly Grand Canyon tours. And then like a year later, he showed up flying Grand Canyon tours. And then he went to the airlines I went to Nyan and flew for a private owner for a little bit. And then I came out here to Helina Well, I was about to go into the airlines, I was on my way to SkyWest. And like a month before my start date, I got the call from heli net saying that they had a charter position open. And I think my heart was just way more in helicopters than it was flying for the airlines and doing organ transplant stuff was just calling me a little bit stronger, I guess. And I did a quick one at went to heli net. And then yeah, like a year later, like clockwork, COVID hit and company went out of business, his company went out of business. I was supposed to actually be up in Alaska this summer. And I quit heli net. And I was about to go fly for Norstar just because I wanted the experience of flying in Alaska. And I was like, You know what, why not? I mean, it's like a 50% pay cut. But you know, I just wanted the experience of getting Alaska time. And then COVID hit, and Canada close down their borders. Man, I really don't think there's gonna be a season immediately called my old Jeep pilots gonna pick up my job. Luckily, he hadn't filled my spot yet. So got saved a little bit there for COVID If I took her spot, but like you're not welcome senorita mean, the airlines and the airlines are coming back as well. Now, I mean, luckily everything's starting to slowly, snail's pace back. But yeah, I understand the poll on the helicopter side. And you've probably noticed how it's full of passionate jobs like air ambulance and organ transplant, these are things that are personally sat at a spying, you know, helping other people is a common is a common passion I see. Among, amongst everyone, you know, in general, but especially helicopter people, they're really chasing, not just a job but a passion. So, you know, and, and it's part of your happiness. So with, I see that a lot in helicopter pilots and, and depending on where you go, you know, you'll you'll take little less money to live in a great geographical location, or, you know, do a job that just make sure you're inside happy, you know, your heart happy, so you have to be happy. And that's what we're all after. I know, I was just a fly citation 10 Aside from working at heli net, personally, like flying helicopters is just, it's different. It's different. It's just, I don't know, it's something I love. It's something that I enjoy doing. Don't get me wrong, the citation 10 is pretty cool. But like it's pretty cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool. But it just is a different type of flying. I love flying in general. So like flying airplanes or helicopters. It's all pretty cool with me. But helicopters, just like I feel like it's a little bit more intimate. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I feel like you're actually on the sticks a little bit more and you're doing your thing and I want to you know, depart from the airport from my present position. taxiways, taxiways that was a learning curve when I got to Chicago here, my first time. And I it takes us about 15 minutes to get to the gate, you know, after we landed, and I was like, what EFF is going on here? Like, yeah, I looked at the captain. I'm like, bro, I don't even know what they call. I don't even know. They told me right now. In my job right now we have a Gulfstream 550 And so the helicopter or oftentimes will will go to the you know the work of Ella pad pick up the passengers and then drop them off at the Jet the jet flies away. Say they come back into Philly. We go fly into meet the jet and grab the passengers and we've flown in to meet the jet and waited and waited and waited. And the taxi they were there across a couple of runways and like oh my god, you were texting. He's coming. So much jet fuel burn in here. Shut down. So yeah, so I feel for them and then the boss gets on and he's like, Oh my God, what are we like? It took us forever. 20 minutes just to get to the helicopter. Yeah. So we're thinking can we pick up and go to them? Foxtrot three to pass a passenger change out? Can we just go to them kind of running behind schedule? I'm gonna run out of gas sitting here on the tarmac. Minimum fuel, I have to go. You're on? You're on the term. Oh, do you like what are you doing minimum fuel? Well, gosh, Stacy, it's been an absolute pleasure. You are such an inspiration to perspective pilots around the world. And thank you so much for sharing your story. You have so much experience and knowledge to share with with everybody and with the world. And we have listeners all around the globe, too. So we're very popular in Sweden. Actually, apparently number two or number two is Yeah, shout out to my sweet not sure what number two is but yeah, we have listeners on almost every continent. Yes. Funny when we got the when she told me about I was like what? Am I gonna do the next Joe Rogan? Watch out? Joe, we're coming for you. On the fly. San Jose. We're getting there shaken bake. But now thank you so much for coming on. And man, your resumes kick ass. I was like, dang, man. I said to you in a Word doc. So you can fashion it with your stuff in there. I'm just gonna take your name out and put my PDF template, I got the Stacey shared template. I mean, I didn't invent the thing, of course. But that exact template is everywhere you see it again and again. And again. We do resume reviews at heli Expo for free. And, and you you'll see them again and again. Again, everyone's like, Where are these coming from? So proud of yourself. You're making a difference in the industry and for I want us all to look good. I don't want to look I don't want us to look a hot mess when we go in for an interview when everybody ready. You know, all that stuff is the fluff anyway, they're hiring you. That's just the papers that accompany you why stress over that? Paperwork? Yeah. That's right. All right. Well, hey, I know there's there's way too much to talk about. And I know we could talk to you forever. For real. I don't even know how long What time is it right now? It's 411. Yeah, I mean, we've been going a little over an hour or so. Yeah, great, we got some great content, we usually like to keep it down to about an hour. So a couple of our episodes are a little over but which is totally fine. Because it's such good information. You know what people will will sit through it, we get so much good feedback from people out there, through Instagram, by the way, everybody out there who's sending us really amazing reviews to our Instagram good and copy and paste that over to Apple, I really would really appreciate that it helps us circulate the episodes a little bit more it spreads the word and it helps get the information further. So we're not doing that just for our own vanity being like Oh say nice things about us. But it really does help circle the information so if you if people out there enjoying the podcast and you believe it's useful information that more people should listen to leave a review on Apple podcast and it'll help spread the word and get it out there. So oh my gosh, I can't wait for hai heli Expo. I can't wait. Yes. I mean, either. Yeah, we're gonna see there. Yeah, look, I'm gonna buy your first Margarita. Do you drink? You buy me a drink. I'm yours for as long as it takes to drink that drink. Yeah, you can ask me almost Yeah. templates for that one came from Yeah, your Smooth Criminal scenery. They're like, Man, this interview went by like, Quick, Quick Man scenery to Stacey was a pretty cool chick. It's just dope. Yeah, you know, I can't believe where this industry is going, you know, she like, kind of opened up my eyes to a whole new different ballgame of where I think helicopters are gonna go. Yeah, I mean, she, like you can just feel her excitement. Like she literally was so lit up during this conversation when she was talking about the future of like quads and, you know, VTOL aircraft and where we're heading. And I get a lot of people that approached me who are thinking about going to flight school, and they just don't know if getting into aviation, if it's the right timing, or, who knows, like, when is the right timing? I don't know. But in this industry, I like changes year to year. But I think I mean, I think we're definitely going more into electric or hybrid vehicles, which is cool, it's going to be better for the environment, it's going to be quieter. It's going to improve traffic. But super cool. You just think about like the Jetsons. Oh, yeah, you know, we're heading there. Not only that, but like, I've just feel even right now, I know, we're just barely getting through the pandemic, but the aviation market as a whole, I think it's going to be on the up and up. Yeah. And we're always gonna need pilots, at least system monitors, you know, I don't think it's going to be fully autonomous when it comes to certain things. And it's going to take a while before people get comfortable, especially passionate passenger carrying aircraft for people to feel comfortable with automation, that much automation. But yeah, it's, uh, I definitely think we're heading towards an exciting time. I think that the industry is not going to go away anytime soon. And if people want to get involved with aviation, it's actually kind of the perfect time to start right now. Because in a couple of years, even like, in this next year, the airline business is gonna go, it's gonna skyrocket. And before the pandemic, there was already a pilot shortage, and the airlines were really desperate for people to start flying for them. And when travel comes back in a big way, which it will, they're going to need a lot of hands on deck, you know? Yeah, both in the airlines and in the helicopter helicopter industry. Yeah, I mean, we, it's insane. I would see from the beginning of when I started my career going to heli Expo, and you'd go to the job fair, there were lines out the door when I first started. And with, with people having their resumes and networking, in the last one that I went to, it was like ghost town, and then in the job fair, part of the part of the expo, yeah, there weren't that many people's like, where all the people were all the flight instructors that are looking for their next step. Where are they? And honestly, I mean, it's just there's a shortage across the board. And I think a big part of it has to do with how expensive it is. Yeah. Qualified pilots for the position. Right, you know, totally. So I definitely think there's going to be a need for both helicopter pilots and airplane pilots. You know, after two years from now, so somebody started flight school today, and got all of their flight ratings in the next two years, I think that the job market is going to be wide open. And then that's my, my personal take on it. I very similar. Yeah, you agree. I do agree. Cool, man. So we've all been kind of bummed with the pandemic and all the cancellation of all of our amazing networking events and air shows and places where people who have a similar passion for aviation can gather in the world. And we're going to go over now that things are starting to open up. And organizations are starting to put shows on again, they're starting to put networking events on again, the top three networking aviation events that we could come up with in order here, here they are. Oshkosh 2021. The EAA Airventure is back this year, Khalid lujah, July 26 to August 1. So go ahead and get your tickets now, folks, because it's online, the NBA, the national business aviation Association, they're going to be hosting an event in Las Vegas, October 12 through 14th. That's going to be a great networking event. And make sure you guys go online and check that out if that's something you're interested in as well. H AI heli Expo is also back in 2022, though, march 7 to the 10th. So if you've already purchased your tickets for New Orleans, I believe you could get a full refund back or you could have those tickets transferred over to 2022 Yeah, that's gonna be in Dallas, Texas Tech. Yeah, I'm going down for sure. We're gonna be there so you guys better show up so we can meet all of you guys face to face. We'd love to see you there. And hope you guys have a beautiful rest of your day. That's the end of the episode this week, and we'll catch you in a couple of weeks later.