Part 2 of The Boys from Local 58

This is part 2 of a kitchen table discussion about Dallas Fire Department history, Local 58, riding on open cab trucks, the 1936 Texas Centennial Expedition, a fatal accident, and making a big difference in the life of a young man who wandered into the fire station one day. 

Guests include Captain Don Howard, Captain Reuben Millsaps, Lieutenant Mike McLemore and Lieutenant Terry May.

You can see photographs related to this episode on the website at this link: 

https://www.firehousetalk.com/post/part-2-of-the-boys-from-local-58

Please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

Visit www.firehousetalk.com for more information

Transcript

The Boys From Local 58 Part 2 Transcript

(Times are only approximate)

00:00

Hello ya’ll, today we are continuing our conversation with Captain Don Howard, Captain Reuben Millsaps, Lieutenant Mike McLemore, and you’ll also hear a little bit from Lieutenant Terry May, who stopped by for a spell.    

This is part 2 of 2. When we left off, Don had just told us the story of how we came to have minimum staffing of four around and today we are picking back up where we left off.

Staffing

00:30

Millsaps

When I came to work, staffing was not an issue. We had five on each engine. And we had five on every piece of equipment except the tillers, where we had an extra.

So we had six on the 100-foot aerial. And we didn't seldom ever run short. But I said 18s was the biggest station.

It was the biggest station and the most manpower. 11s was close back when I came to work, because we had nine 11-engine, 11-truck. So they had 15 men.

Now, we had the same amount of equipment. We had one extra man, but then we had a chief and 820 there. So that gave us three more people.

So basically, 18-engine, I mean, 18-station back then, when it opened, was the largest station in Dallas. 

Riding on the Turntable

01:30

McLemore

So Reuben, when you say the 100-foot aerial, was that the tiller trucks then? 

Yes.

McLemore

And when you say road six, that means you sat on the turntable. You weren't like a spot to ride. You just held on the side.

Millsaps

Yeah, you sat on the turntable.

McLemore

Sat on the turntable. And you held on. 

And you held on.

Millsaps

Because I grabbed the windows. I went across the front of it one day. 

Really?

Well, you're trying to get dressed. And you're sitting like this, right here. And you're up here, and the window's right here, way up in front of you.

And you've got nothing to grab. And you can't grab, because you're getting dressed. And all of a sudden, they stopped.

And I went, shoom. And I grabbed that window.

Hampton

Mercy.

Millsaps

They got it stopped, and I got back on the turntable again.  And we kept going.

Rolled off EN11, got on EN09   

2:30

Millsaps

Anyway, I'll never forget. We had a call out of Eleven's one morning. 

Nine Engine usually led the way, because it faced Cedar Springs. And Eleven Engine came out on Reagan. So Eleven Engine was always trying to beat Nine Engine to the corner.

Hampton 

They were running two different engines out of station 11 at the time?

Millsaps

Yeah, Nines and Elevens.

Hampton

Nines and Elevens, OK.

Millsaps

So anyway, long story short, they got the line out. And I can't remember the, I wish I could remember his name. But he was riding on the back of Eleven Engine.

And they were going down Oak Lawn. And they got to Lemmon. And he was putting his mask on.  And they slowed down a little bit, and then they sped up. And he fell off. He just rolled.  And he hit his……  he landed up on his feet.  And here come Nine Engine behind him and he just stepped up on Nine Engine.

And we were on the truck, and they were all clapping.

What a show they put on. 

EN10-Spray Gun Phillips

3:30

Howard

You know, Twelve Engine ran out of fours. Yeah, yeah.

Hampton

Twelves ran out of fours when they had the Golden Pheasant fire at that time, right?

Millsaps

Twelve and four engines.

Howard

That was running out, when I came to work, it was still running out of fours.

Hampton

Was it really? Yeah. When I came to work, we had Engine 10 running out of 18s.

And then when they opened Station 10, it (the second engine at 18’s) became Engine 88.

Millsaps

Right. See, they changed that number on Engine 10. It went through several changes.

When it came to 18s, when it came to 18s, it was one engine. Because ones and 18s made 18 station. So we came down there with one engine, 18 engine, and they renumbered the truck again from one truck to 18 truck.

There had been an 18 truck at one time. But when they opened up new 18s, they changed that number on it.

Hampton

They changed truck one to truck 18.

Millsaps

Yeah. But they still had one engine. Then they opened up new one station.

And when they did that, they named it 10 engine.

Hampton

OK. I did not know they did that.

Millsaps

They gave it another number. Then when they opened up 10s, they gave it 88.

Hampton

OK. So it keeps changing.

Millsaps

They finally decided, let's put it far enough out of reach that we won't ever have to change it again. Yeah.

McLemore

Hey, Reuben, you were telling me also, on the tiller trucks, the second driver tilled and the driver drove the front. Was that true?

Millsaps

No, no. No, they had, there were two drivers. Actually, two drivers and a second driver.

And a second driver for each position. OK. Yeah.

Yeah, they did. OK. Yeah, the driver on the,  I know when I went down there, when I'm a driver and I went down there and I went to driving one truck, and the tillerman, it was there, Spray Gun Phillip.

Never forget him. He'd come to me, and he said, you know how to drive a truck? And I said, I sure do.

He said, well, I'll tell you what, boy. You get the front end around it, I'll get the back. I said, good enough for me.

And he was right. He could put that back end wherever I put that front end. He could put the back in.

Why did they call him Spray Gun? 

Millsaps

He was a painter.

He was a painter. I think he sprayed everything, himself and everybody else. But he was Spray Gun Phillips.

Howard

At one of the budget hearings, when Chief Penn was the chief, they were going to talk about doing away with the second drivers, and he said, take something else. That's the most important position on the fire department.

Hampton

Really?

Howard

Yeah.

Hampton

Good for them, because they were sure an asset.

Howard

Yeah. You know, when they did away with it, Chief Miller said, you know, Don, it's really not good management. We're paying them $13 a month to be a second driver.  And then when they drive, we pay them driver's pay. I guess if we hadn't got acting pay, we'd still have second drivers, maybe. But that gave them a way to do away with it.

Hampton

A way to do away with it. Yeah, because I mean, $13 a month. Good grief.

Howard

Well, they didn't have to swing. That's what they told me. You know, I was trying to keep them, arguing all about it.

They said, you know, we don't have to swing.

Hampton

Well, I tell you.

Howard

They can have the $13.

Hampton

I don't know what the statistics are on it now. But it seems to me we have a lot more accidents. Of course, we run a lot more.

Howard

We had a pension meeting, I guess, Friday, I guess it was. And I left City Hall and went up Cesar-Chavez, or whatever it is, and took a right on Gaston and that’s Pacific.

And I was going up there. And at, what's the name, where you used to have the tunnel, you went under? 

Good-Latimer.

Goodlatimer. 703 busted that red light, just blowing and going. I said, it's automatic three days off, right?

McLemore

It is now, yeah. 

Howard

Why in the world, what are they thinking?

Millsaps

See, if you'll look back and see, the number of men killed in the line of duty in the Dallas Fire Department prior to 1961 were mostly wrecks. Not fires, wrecks. Just look and see how many were killed that way.

Most all of them were killed in a damn wreck trying to get there.

McLemore

A lot of them were responding and ran into other apparatus or ran into police cars 

Howard

Jones boys

Millsaps

The Jones boys hit the police car. And both of them, one was going to a false alarm and the police were going to an alarm they weren't even supposed to be going to.

Hampton

And that was truck 15, right?

Millsaps

Truck 15.

Howard

And they blamed that cop. The cop got blamed for it. Which is out there at the museum now, right?

Centennial truck.

Hampton

Yes, sir. The Centennial truck is currently at the Texas Fire Museum.

Millsaps

Well, we had Junior, who was on 15 truck. And he got thrown off and he hit his head on the curb. Really, they should have retired him, gave him full pension, whatever.

Because it screwed him up really bad for the rest of his life. 

Howard

Junior who? Strickland.

Millsaps

Oh, OK. And but he came to one's, no, that's not true. He came to 18's towards the end of his career.

No, he came to one's and then we got him. And he was just, he was always out of it. You know, he just, it was like, and he was a driver.

Hampton

And we had at least one other like that. His name was Ben E. Combs.

Millsaps

Yes, I knew Benny, yeah.

Hampton

He, I believe, was standing up in the jump seat and fell out before we had the man savers that could help keep you from falling out, and was never the same.

Centennial Truck Narration

9:40

You heard mention a moment ago about a wreck with the Jones boys on Truck 15 and then a mention that the Centennial truck is over at the Texas Fire Museum.  

I’d like to fill in some details on that before we move on.  The story starts in 1936 with the Texas Centennial Exposition, which was a World’s Fair and celebrated Texas’ 100 years of independence from Mexico. 

The exposition was held at Fair Park, and if you’ve been there , much of what you saw at the fairgrounds is due to that 1936 event as many of the Art Deco buildings built for the exposition are still standing.  

The Texas Centennial Commission purchased a pair of new 1936 model Peter Pirsch fire apparatus for the event, one pumper and one tillered aerial. This was done with the understanding that the Dallas Fire Department would staff the apparatus there at fair park for duration of the event, and when it was over the apparatus would be gifted to the fire department. 

That truck served for many years, but unfortunately, some 27 years later, TR15 was responding to a box alarm when it collided with a police car at the intersection of Zang and Davis.

I’d tell you the story, but it has already been told in a previous episode of this podcast  titled “Sound of a Siren”.  

Many years ago, Marsha Massie, the wife of Bud Massie wrote a short story about the night the fire chief came to her house with bad news.  She was kind enough to read it aloud for us in that episode and I encourage you to go back and listen to that episode as her story is both fascinating and devastating.  

After the tragic accident, the Centennial Truck was repaired and was eventually acquired by the Arlington Fire Department.  The truck has long since been retired and is owned by the Dallas Firefighters Museum now , but is in storage at the Texas Firefighters Museum next to Station 16.  

She’s  a beautiful old truck with a history, and it is my hope that someday,  someone will restore her, but like all old fire apparatus, and all old firefighters, her future is very much uncertain.  

I have posted some photographs related to the Centennial Truck and the Expo over on the FirehouseTalk website that are worth taking a look at.  From the homepage, you just need to click on the post for this episode and the photos are all there if you scroll down.   

 You’ll find some historical photographs of the Centennial Truck and the Exposition over on the Firehouse Talk website 

Don Howard Garland

12:30

Hampton

As background for our next story, Don, had been a firefighter in Sherman, then he worked for the phone company for a while before very nearly hiring on with the Garland Fire Department.  We’re glad he didn’t get that job. Here’s the story: 

Howard

But anyway, I'd been on the fire department and I applied in Garland and I'm being interviewed by the fire marshal, city personnel director, fire chief and two grizzly old captains and we're talking and and The Personnel director said if we hire you you just want to ride the tailboard for 20 years and I said no, I want that man’s job, talking about the chief and he said When I get through it you can have it and I said I'll try to be ready So one of these old captains over he said hell the boys been here before I think we ought to hire him So they said go take your physical If you pass give me a call. That's talent the personnel director So I passed I called him.

He said Don, I hate to tell you this, but Chief Burkhardt said he didn't think you'd fit in.

Well, I you know, I'm sure he thought I was a smart-ass which I am but I also tried to be ready for that job, you know, anyway, so I'm disappointed and Barbara’s looking at the paper Sunday When they're hiring fire inspectors, I said I'm gonna go to Dallas. She said no the buildings are too tall I said yeah, but there's a lot of them, you know, we wrote to most of the time in Sherman.

So I called my boss and I said I I need to be about two hours maybe three hours late in the morning. He said okay, so I went took the test. 

So Barbara calls me and said some fire chief called and wants to talk to you. She gave me his name and number, and it was chief Ray who was the deputy fire marshal. So I called him and He said you did real good on that test. I'd like to interview you.

I said well when he said well I know it's hard for a guy working to get off He said I live in Oak Cliff. Could you come to my house after working hours and interview? I said I certainly can When? he said, and I said tonight. He says you can't come tonight, it's union meeting night and I have to go to the union meeting.

How about tomorrow night?

So I went the next night Tuesday the third Tuesday in November 1966 and we talked about a lot of stuff, you know my career and what I'd done and talked about the Union my grandfather raised me.  He was a member of the railroad machinists…. He said well you got the job now you need to go apply.

I said “How do I do that?”

He said go 2111 Main, 2nd floor and see Captain Bell.

So I go down there He gives me some paperwork and says go get your picture made. So I did all that so, they told me to come work December 1 so I went up there to inspection and I asked the secretary for Chief Ray and Captain Willis, tall slender guy, stuck his head around the corner. 

He said you Howard and I said, yes, sir.

He said come on in here, Ferris is off today

So I went in there and I said chief I got a problem he said what said I said, well my wife is pregnant with our first child and we've got to go back to Sherman and I said, I don't know I would hope it'd be born on a Saturday or Sunday, but I can’t guarantee that and I know you know, I don't have any way to be off. He said don't worry about that we take care of it when, she needs to go call me and tell me everything will be alright So he takes me back To the squad bay there and introduces me and all this stuff and Lee Wallace who was the Union steward walked up and he said Don you joining Union? I said, how'd I do that? He said give me $3. So I gave him $3 

So they voted me in in January of ‘67 But I made a decision this this Union must be pretty important, the deputy chief’s going to the meetings. Well, Ernest Emerson had been the president, and he wasn't running, Forest Francis was running for president and he was The favorite boy to be elected and I don't even know if he had any competition But anyway Forest became the president 

Chuck

Wouldn't be pretty unusual for a deputy chief to be the union president?

Howard

He was a battalion chief.

Millsaps

It would be.  It wasn’t then

Hampton

Really? 

Millsaps

No, I mean it was because it was a it was a good old boys club You know, I mean they met When I when I first they met in the VFW on the second floor building directly across the street from  Central Fire Station, which burnt down to the ground that was another one that morning when it was so cold I froze to the dead gum concrete

Howard

They transmitted a box and whatever engine came up Commerce straight there and they didn't….. nothing show…..    and dispatch is looking at it. “Come aroudn to the back”

Millsaps

We were sitting in the street with to us and that's when we had the two and a half inch Oh, you know you had a curl and then you sat on them. Yeah, and this thing was on fire We weren't going in and we pointed and I don't know it was it wasn't as cold as this one here But it was plenty cold We literally did… everything froze on us and then we were sitting on that hose and that water and we were freezing we were freezing to the dead gum hose. 

It was cold. It was miserably cold. But you got to go over to Central to get a cup of coffee if you get relieved to go do it because it was right across the street. 

Howard

If you could get off the hose

Millsaps

if you get off the hose and stand up 

Don Howard DFD Fire Prevention

18:30

Lt. Alexander was my training officer And The boy was born December 20th, so sometime between the first Barbara went up and stayed a couple days with her mother And I overslept and I woke up. I said, oh my god, so I call lieutenant Alexander And I said Lou, I've overslept. Is there any need me coming in? He said you got a flat when you get it changed.

I said I said I overslept and He said when you get it changed come in. 

I Was only about ten minutes late, you know, I drove 100 miles an hour down Skillman.  

But anyway, I went in his office. I said What I said, he said did you hear what I said? And I thought when I hear I'm gonna get to go Take my wife to have a baby born and I had a flat instead and overslept. This is the place to be And I spent 40 years there

Hampton

So when did you Change from being an inspector to an arson investigator?

Howard

‘73.

Hampton

Okay. Is that when you made captain? 

Howard

No, its when I made lieutenant. Okay Acting captain.

Okay, you're on I drew one month one month of lieutenants And then I started drawing acting pay.

Don Howard – Arson Investigator

20:00

Hampton

What kind of training did you go through to become an arson investigator?

Howard

There wasn't really any it was you just went with somebody and learned.  So I latched on to Walden.

Yeah, and We would go to a fire and he said what do you think and I said, well, I think it's this, you know He said you dumb son on a bitch.  Look over here Look over here And he was a hell of an interrogator God Almighty 

Plan B

20:30

Hampton

In the early 1970’s, the Dallas Police and Fire Pension Fund began offering members the option to retire under a new plan, that allowed members to retire earlier and with a larger pension.  It was a good deal for those who waited for the change, but apparently not everyone got the word….

Millsaps

You know when talking about when when the plan a plan B came in the fit It was old play old plan and plan A. Those those people that were getting ready…. and of course the two captains at one’s were both wanting to retire, Yankee, JC and and Captain DeWees and but you know all those men back then they worked till they were 60 65 years old because they were gonna retire for $300 a month. That was that was what our plan paid about $300 a month and it was a 50% of a three-year private and there is a sad story that is connected with that too, but they waited, they heard that this plan could get voted in, well when they did but you know they were gonna get a percentage of their total years in service not 50%, And so for cap DeWees in that in Yankee both I'm almost sure that their raise went from $300 They're gonna go from 300 to around 1,200 or something.

It was a substantial increase for them. The sad part about it, one of the saddest parts about it was we had a chief of the department Chief Penn, who had been 25 years chief of the department? He'd been on 40 something years and somehow or for some reason no one told the old man they're gonna do this. He left, and after all those years of service the old man left for the $300 a month pension. And just a few months later. He would have had a twice that amount I'm not more way more than twice that amount

Hampton

Chief Penn was before my time, but I know he was one of the most revered Fire Chiefs the Dallas Fire Department ever had, he was reputed to be highly competent at his job and fair with everyone, so this seems a particularly cruel twist of fate.  Sometimes it seems to me that no good deed goes unpunished. 

In our next story you’ll hear Don refer to W.A., that’s Investigator W.A. Richardson, and to Emerson a Chief Investigator, and to Buttermilk Spillman, a well-known Dallas Chief who would eventually go on to be the Chief of the Department in Irving, Texas

Howard

That's 11's had all his wires going across the street Lighting up the volleyball court over there And and they got to be a rumor that they were making book over there or something I mean, it was a big investigation going on, and W.A., and I were going over the Oak Cliff out of five two-story and we had a big tall stepladder in the office I don't know why we don't tie it on the back top of car go over it, but it is about I don’t guess it’s quite 8 feet, 

But anyway, we went into Emerson's office, Carol Allen was a secretary said is he and I guess that we were the W.A. opened that step ladder up and raises that drop-in ceiling I was what's going on what's going on 

We heard this office was bugged 

He said, That son of a bitch Spillman

Hampton

Now I've heard Spillman referred to as buttermilk 

Howard

Yeah

I don't know where it came from. 

Hampton

Any idea Reuben where that came from?

Millsaps

Well only from what I was told cuz I he was named that when I but they said that he was He drank lots of buttermilk. 

Now Mitchell Tree called him a slobbering son-of-a-bitch at the dinner table. Mitchell Tree was a private, second driver and he was a he was a deputy chief and that's what Mitchell tree called him at the dinner table it because he did that he kind of did do that And they were kind of crosswise and and Mitchell Tree just stood up there at the lunch table and a you're a slobbering son-of-a-bitch. You would have thought it would have cost him his job… all it did was it got him moved from Central Fire Station to 36’s, and and he spent the rest of his time at 36’s  But he was still known even when he retired as the man that called Spillman that, But yeah, they something something went wrong at lunch. I don't know what it was But that's how I understand he got his name He just he just a man who drank up tremendous and and he did drink buttermilk. So I guess that was it 

Station 1 Sign

26:00

Howard

He was talking about one station, this sign out here came from one’s.

Hampton

What sign? 

Howard

Out in front of the museum. 

Hampton

Really? That black iron one came from one’s?

Howard

Yeah

Hampton

I did not know that.

Howard

I read in the paper that Lone Star Cadillac had bought one station at Ross and Leonard. And Douglas Hall was the general manager of Lone Star Cadillac, and his son was a Dallas fireman. And I called him, and I can't remember his first name.

I said, Hey, Lone Star just bought that old one station over there, and this wrought iron metalwork on the front of it. I said, I understand your daddy's in charge down there. Would you check with him and see if we might be able to buy that thing?

I figured we'd get the union to buy it for the museum. And he said, I said, I know that they’re going to tear the building down, and it's probably going to go to the dump. He said, I'll look into it for you.

About a week, he called me, and he said, Don? I said, Yeah. What about the sign?

He said, It's over at the museum. They took it down and delivered it. Is that right?

Hampton

I just want to say, I’ve been involved with the museum a number of years now and did not know the the story of that sign we have out front, I always though it looked cool, but I did not know it was a historical artifact.  I’m glad Don saw the value in it and took the initiative to save it.  I know most of you don’t have any idea what we are referring to, so I’ve put two photos of it on the website; one when it was hanging from old 1’s decades ago, and another one showing what it looks like now at its new home at the Dallas Firefighters Museum.

Reuben Millsaps Last Crew

27:45

Who was on your truck crew there at that point in time when you left?

Big Al, Buck Boren and Porter Griggs. Couldn't beat the crew.

I mean, you couldn't beat the crew. We got Mike (Jones). We had to go over to 8’s to pick something up one day.

And 8 Station, and they had some good-sized guys over there. They were trying to bust out the curb and everything in the parking lot to re-pour some area. I think the basketball goal or something.

But anyway, they were wanting to bust all that out. And they were hammering and hammering, and we pulled up in the truck, and it was us four, so we walked around.

We watched them, and they had beaten on that concrete, and they had beaten on that concrete, and they had beaten on that concrete. And they weren't doing real well against it. And so we were standing back there, and Mike Jones, Chief Jones, he says, Big Al, can you help them?

And Big Al says, you know, he just, yep. So he went over and got that hammer. He went over and got that 16-pound sledgehammer.

And once again, like I was telling you about that door earlier, it sounded like, I never heard nothing like it. And it literally shook where we were standing, the concrete down there, where was that? He hit that sucker twice, and he busted everything they had been working on.

And Mike looked at him, and he said, I was pretty sure he could do that. And he looked at all that crew at eights, and he said, see? But that was just Big Al.

You know, it wasn't a big deal to him. He just swung that hammer as hard as he could, and two big swings, and everything they'd been hammering on out there all afternoon, he busted out in two swings. 

Hampton

That’s a truck man there for you.

Howard

Reuben mentioned Porter Griggs. He was a super rookie down at Central.

They sent him down to buff the second floor. We were in Old Central. That was the chief's office.

None of them had ever used a buffer. They nearly destroyed it. So they finally mastered it, at least Porter did.

And I went to the retirement party, and I said, well, the highlight of Porter's career was when he learned to use the buffer. He liked to have destroyed the second floor. 

Reuben

He'd come in, him and Albert.

I can't think of what Albert's last name was.

Hampton

Al Kirksey?

Millsaps

No, no, not Kirksey. And he had a brother, but I can't remember what Albert's name was. Anyway, they had both just come to work, and they were both, you know, and they were on our shift at 1’s.

And so me and Mike Jones were together. Mike and me were there together, along with a bunch of others, but me and Mike. And so we found out we could do something to them that they didn't realize, and we would, they'd come in on a Sunday morning, and we would get them back there and tell them, okay, Notre Dame, whoever they're playing, Notre Dame playing today.

And we'd give them massive amounts of points, because the game had been played Saturday night. Neither Albert nor Porter realized the game had been, because we told them, Notre Dame, that's a church school. They play on Sunday, Sunday morning.

And they bought that crap, and they bought it for weeks. And they came in one time there, and Notre Dame had won by 40-something points. And they came in that morning, and I told Porter, I told A and Albert, I said, okay, we really think that Notre Dame can beat the crap out of these people, we're going to give you all 41 points. Boy, they pulled that money out of the billfold. And, of course, Notre Dame had won by 48 points the night before.

Sometime between that loss and about two weeks later, they realized…….. 

You know, they were maybe a little upset. They didn't come in fighting mad, but that was fun.  We got to play that on them for several weeks. And I still get on Porter. We still mess around a lot together, and I still kid Porter about it. You ready to bet on Notre Dame? 

Convention Golf Beer

33:00

McLemore

When I first got to hanging out with Reuben, well, first off, I was a young guy going to meetings and kind of got to know Reuben and he was like, do you sub? I'm like, sure, I love to work.

Well, he would hire me or the association would pay me to work sometimes three shifts in a row so he could attend meetings, whatever. Well, then as I got a little more senior with the guys, I got to start going with them.  And I found out that they're going to conventions and all that, so we'd go to the state convention and I'd go with Reuben and we'd go in to secure the beverage cost because we would always sponsor the beverages at the golf tournament every year. Well, we weren't really securing the cost. We were seeing what brand they sold.

So then we would go down to the local store and buy our own beverages and sneak them in the parking lot because Reuben was very tight with the money. But there was this one occasion, I don't remember if we were in Lubbock or where we were at, where we had purchased 16-ounce cans.

Reuben

Irving.

McLemore

It was Irving. We bought 16-ounce cans.

Hampton

Right beer, wrong size.

McLemore

Exactly, and got busted. 

Millsaps

The old boy came to us and he said, you have to buy our own beer.

And I said, well, we're doing that. And we were buying some, very little, but some. And he said, no, you're not.

And I said, oh, yes, we are. And he said, no, you're not because your beer is in 16-ounce cans and ours are only in 12. And I said, are you sure?

And he said, don't do that anymore. Well, the girls went around delivering beer, we knew that that's where the secret had gotten out is they were probably complaining that they weren't selling any beer. So I went to each one of them and I handed them $50.

I said, if you'll not tell anybody else anymore, we'll be okay. And they accepted the $50 each, and we got to peddle our own beer the rest of the day.

McLemore

That's a good secretary treasurer right there.

Association Don Howard

35:00

Don Howard

Okay. I went to work December 1 of 66. Yep.

December the 20th of 69. I'd been on board three years and 20 days.  A day worker, and I was elected first vice president of the association and I beat the 25-year captain in a runoff. Because I went both nights. 

Hampton

You were basically a rookie.

Yeah. Yeah. Every month I went both nights because I worked days.

Okay. And I told my wife the day I joined, I said, this thing meets third Monday and Tuesday of every month, and I'm going both nights the rest of the month, whatever you want me to do, but those are my nights. 

Hampton

Don would continue to be active in the association his entire career, and amazingly still serves as a trustee even in retirement.  We’ll rejoin the conversation here….

Howard

And then when Rudy (Valles), you know, Rudy was president, and he was on the deputy's list, and Mary Suhm told him, I'm not having a union president as the deputy chief, so he resigned, (Rudy) Valles, and he was elected trustee. Then when he retired, I was elected trustee, and I've been there. I'm still a trustee.

Hampton

And you're still a trustee. 

Howard

I've had seven different positions on the executive board and one of them twice.

Hampton

That's amazing.

McLemore

And, Don, how many years have you been paying dues? 

Howard

Fifty-six.  I'm working on 57.

How many years he's been paying dues? Oh, that's got to be a record.

Terry May 

You're not an emeritus? 

Howard

I am an emeritus. 

Hampton

But you pay dues.

Howard

Because I'm going to go to the meeting, and I'm going to vote to spend money, I should be spending mine, too. That's just my philosophy.

McLemore

Mike Jones had him beat out because he hired on earlier, but since Mike is retired, he's passed him now.

Howard

Oh, okay. Well, I passed him on active. Active, yeah.

Involvement or however, yeah. I'll pay as long as I'm living, I think. 

Al Jagers and Hall St Stabbing

37 minutes

Millsaps

We got a call one night, a stabbing up on Hall Street, back when Hall Street was nasty. I don't know if you all remember any of that or not.

Hampton

Before it became uptown. 

Millsaps

Right by Central Expressway in that area. 

Millsaps

And we got a call from Hall Street. So we get up there and the paramedics have already gotten there and, in fact, they've already gone in. We knew where they were already in, but when I came up to the porch, the little step-up porch, and there were two black men standing right there at the door, side by side.

And big Al was behind me, and Curtis was just a little bit way back. I started to step up and big Al grabbed me and said, Don't go up there, Lieu. And I said, What?

And he said, Don't go up there. He said, He's got a towel over his arm. I bet he's got a knife in his hand.

He said, He's got a knife. He didn't say, I bet. He said, He's got a knife in his hand.

When I said, That's street smart. That's street smart. Big Al put me.

He stepped up on the porch. About the minute he stepped up on the porch, he grabbed that guy's arm. Well, that's like putting a claw on somebody's back.

I mean, almost put him on the ground when he grabbed that arm. Sure enough, he had a knife. Is that right?

Now, I don't know, and I don't know that we ever heard whether he was the one doing the stabbing or he just had a knife.

But Al was right. He had a knife. Right.

And he didn't have it long because Al was getting ready to break his arm off.

More Big Al

39:00

Terry May

 I got one quick big Al story since Reuben said he'll do anything.

They were having a run downtown one day, and Wayne Moffat went over to Big Al and he says, Why don't you go down there and run in that run? Al says, Okay. Down he went.

We all stood out on the approach and waved at him when he came. 

Reuben

Oh, I got another one. Like I said, he was the cook, and he did the cleanup.

And it was because he wanted to, and everybody was glad he did. And he was a good cook. So it was about 11 o'clock one night.

Most had gone to bed, not everybody, but I was up there, and Al was still in the kitchen cleaning up. And I said, Al, you don't have to do that. We don't have to do all that to you.

Take a break. He turned to me and he said, Lieu he said, I picked cotton when I was 5 years old in Mississippi, This ain't work.

If you've ever picked cotton, you know what he's talking about. Yeah, I picked it a little bit. This ain't work.

Captain DeWees

40:00

Hampton

I’d like to provide a little background for this next story for any listeners who may not be familiar with tiller trucks.  Tiller trucks are long fire trucks that consist of a tractor and a trailer. Even though they are longer than other fire trucks, they are more maneuverable on tight streets because the rear wheels are steerable.  In addition to the driver up front, there is a driver in the back that controls that rear end, so it is imperative that the tiller truck doesn’t leave the house without both drivers on board.

Okay, tell me a story about one truck. 

Howard

Now don't beat on the table. Nearly everybody's been guilty of that today.

Millsaps

At that time, at this particular time, I was driving one engine, Cap Dewey's. Yeah. And Cap Dewey's had the most uncanny way of showing, it surprised him.   He slapped that arm and he said, oh my aching crotch. And when the first time he saw Porter Wagner on TV with all that sequins, he couldn't believe it. And I mean, he went around saying it, oh my aching crotch.  He just went on and on and on about it. So that's how he expressed something he couldn't believe. Right, okay.

So we pull out, we get a run, it's in the afternoon, and we're going to pull out on Ross and head down Ross into town. And I pull out, I'm leading, and I pull out and I'm looking in the rear view mirror, and I see one truck pull out. And I look down ahead to see where we're going, and I look back and then I saw the back of one truck swing around and start running over cars in the parking lot at Lone Star Cadillac.

Jim Roberts was driving one truck. Bill Malone was supposed to be driving the back of it.

That didn't happen. We had a driver in front, but we didn't have one in the rear.

And so when I saw that, I turned over to Cap DeWees and I said, this is going to be one of your aching crotch moments right here. He looked at me kind of funny and I said, look back. And he looked in that mirror and he said, oh my god, I'll never get all this paperwork done.

And so we got back to the station, and sure enough, one truck had run across two Cadillacs and a Continental. 

Lots of damage.

McLemore

That's a dear chief letter for sure. Lots of damage. Yes, sir.

Millsaps

Jim Roberts had pulled out of the house without a driver. You couldn't do that.

You couldn't do that without knowing it, because when the tillerman sat down in the seat on the back, a bright light this big shined on the dash. 

Hampton

Well, that was my question, was how would you normally know before they had the radio? 

Millsaps

So he knew, or he should have known, he should have paid attention, that there ain't nobody back there. So anyway, the whole blame has fallen on Jim Roberts's head, and truthfully, there for a while, he figured he'd get fired.

And the owner, like I said, nice old man, the owner went to Chief Penn and went to the city and told him, don't blame the boy. We've taken care of it. Really? He said, what? Lone Star Cadillac fixed all the damage.

Don Howard

Yeah, Dee Sanders was the….. 

Millsaps

All of it, and he even told him, he said, don't fire him, or I may not be able to take care of all of it. Almost a threat.  Jim Roberts never heard a word of it. 

3 Stage Pump

44:15

Hampton

Just for reference, in this next story, the building being referred to has been named and renamed a few times over the years, but it is currently known as the Bank of America Building, and is the tallest building in Dallas at 72 stories

Millsaps

We got that three-stage pump...

And it was for high-rise. It was built specifically for high-rise. So, they were building the big 70-story building, and they had completed it, and after they got it completed, we were going to go up and, you know, go through it and look through it and everything.

And so, they called us down there and they said... The one chief did, he said, we're going to go down to... Whatever they called it.

I don't know what the name was. 

Howard

Republic Bank.

Millsaps

So, we got down there and we met the engineers and all that, and we go all the way to the top floor, and we're up there talking about fire protection and all that, and he said... He said... The engineer told Chief Luper, he said...

He said, well, we know that you're not going to be able to pump water up here, so we've got this massive water tank up here, and I forget what it was. It was like maybe... I don't know.

It was a big water tank. He said, that will help you supply the water you need. And Chief Luper turned to me, he said...

Lieu, we can't pump water up here?

And I said... I looked at him, I said... Yeah, we can pump water up here.

He turned back to that engineer and he said... They say they can pump water up here. And he said, no, they can't do that.  I'm pretty sure they can't do that. Chief said, let me tell Troy to pump some water up here if he can. So I told Troy, I said...Get us some water up here. A lot of water. And that engineer was sitting there, and he said he can't do it.

He took the nozzle. He was holding the nozzle. And it almost blew him off the damn building.  It blew him down. And I mean, the look on his face was unbelievable. I said, I told you we could get water up here.

Hampton

And that was because you had a three-stage pump?

Millsaps

But that third-stage pump, when she kicked in, you couldn't slow it down. It pumped it to that 70th floor like it was not even there. 

Mark Berry 

46 minutes

Hampton

Did you know a young man named Mark Barry who ended up? 

Millsaps

Oh, yeah We raised Mark Barry. 

Hampton

Tell me about that. What station were you at?

Millsaps

 At 18s.  Okay, Mark Mark Live with his mom in the Housing addition up off Hall up in that low-income housing and I don't I don't even know for sure what his mother did but she had a good job and Mark would come to the fire station and I would say he was probably around 12, don't you think Terry? 

Terry May

Yeah, he rode his bicycle rode his bicycle to the fire station 

Millsaps

And and he'd come down there and he'd stay all afternoon and we got on you doing your homework He look at his kind of thing you're gonna come down here you're gonna do your homework So he started bringing these books with him and he'd come down there and he'd stay with us and he'd do his homework And then he might not go home…. of course that was back when you could do that kids, could be out late on a bicycle and not be in a lot of trouble And so he might you know, he might leave the station at 9 o'clock that night or whatever and go home and so, that went on for years and but If he's there after after he got about I would say I don't know I'm guessing he was coming there at 12 But after he'd been coming there for for a while and he came on all three shift didn't just only come on one, but he came on our shift regular 

I Told him I said you can ride out with us, But the minute we get somewhere you get off this engine and stand out somewhere away from it.  He said Okay.  So for many years, yeah, if he was there and the bell hit He rode out on 18 engine and 

Hampton

You were taking quite a risk there, you could’ve got in a lot of trouble. 

Millsaps

Yep, sure was, and I knew it and we all knew it, but it was just He had done everything with it.

He studied. he had made good grades.  He played ball. He was a good ball player And so he was doing everything right and I thought I'm I think I can go down. I can go down.

I can go down with him if we go down But I mean it's not hurting anything. He's just riding unless we have a crash Yeah, you know, but that could be bad 

Hampton

Terry May, did you were you working down there at that time?

May

Yes

Hampton

So you you knew Mark from back then? 

May

yes, then I did He was he was quite a football player

Howard

Was he a fireman?

Hampton

He's a fireman right now

Yeah, he's a battalion chief. Battalion 6.  Okay, and a member of the urban search and rescue team like you there, right? Yes.

Okay. Yes So you guys must be quite proud that that your guy Mark got on the fire department and got a, became a chief and I understand he's also married to a chief, right? Right. She's chief over Inspection 

Okay. Yeah, but he I know when he graduated high school We all went together and and rented him a limo 

Hampton

Did you now? 

Millsaps

Yeah, go to the prom in go to the prom and things like that and and he got his bike stole And we bought him got him a new bike bought him another bike, but he would but he was He got he got a job working down there in the West End. Okay, and I don't know cleaning.

I don't know what he's doing But he didn't pay but he didn't get off till Midnight, that's when he got he got and he'd come by the fire station when you come by the fire station of course he's on his bike, you know and Bill McCommas was 820, fine, fine fella and he said “you ain't riding that bike home”. What? Put it in the back of that truck. We're going home. Bill is taking him home every night Every every shift we were on Bill would take him home.

Yeah, I think they did it on the other shifts, too I don't know that but I know on our shift McCommas didn't let him drive, or ride that back home at midnight 

Hampton

So he was very much the adopted son. 

Millsaps

He really was he really was he adopted and I think he'd tell you that today 

Pretty cool 

Well liked and well thought of and and worked hard.

He did everything he did everything, right? Yeah, but the position is in to get ahead where he's at. Mm-hmm. He did it all right.  

Hampton

51 mins

I only asked about Mark Berry because Chaplain Elaine Maddox told me there was a good story there.  I must say I was surprised because I’ve known Mark for many years and I did not know any of this.  Having learned this story, I wanted know more, so I called Mark and twisted his arm until he agreed to come visit me at the museum.  We had a really good conversation and I’m looking forward to sharing it with you soon.

Until then, ya’ll stay in the house, stay out of trouble and say hello to your mamma and them

That is all, KKN-377, Fire Department City of Dallas