Dottie Burch, Atty at Law

We sat down with Dottie Burch, Attorney at Ragsdale and Liggett, PLLC to talk about her love of horses and her career. Dottie is a brilliant lawyer who specializes in equine law. Listen in as she discusses various problems that she has addressed within her professional career. I know you will enjoy meeting her.

Transcript

Rose Cushing 0:15

Thanks for tuning in to today's Horsewoman podcast. Our show explores women in the horse industry as they share their dreams, challenges, successes. What drives these women? Well, let's find out. Good morning. This is Rose Cushing, host of today's Horsewoman. I am with Dottie Birch, and Dottie is an amazing attorney in Raleigh, North Carolina, and a member of Ragsdale Liggett Attorney Firm. And Dottie is an equestrian professional as well in her law career and has been a horsewoman for a very long time. So Dottie, tell me a little bit about how you came to horses.

Dottie Burch 0:47

Well, Rose, I was born in Raleigh, North Carolina, right here, and I guess I loved them from the moment I knew what they were. I remember riding pony rides at the fair and got attached. And there was a local barn who's that's still here today, McNair's Country Acres, when I was a little girl in 1973, 74, went to McNair's and took riding lessons, and that was all she wrote on that. I have never looked back really. Rode for a few years as a child, I guess like eight, nine, ten years old, and then didn't ride much except for occasionally birthday parties, trail rides, things like that. For several years, I rode a little bit more after college, and I'd say not until my daughter, who is now 21, was six years old, did I really get back into it because she like I did got uh attached to them when she was four or five years old at the fair riding the pony, same pony rides in the same location at the fairgrounds, which is funny. And so I took her to McNair's because McNair's is still around. Um, and so she learned to ride at McNair's and Raleigh and got even more hooked than I did and ended up pretty much lessening and showing since she was able to. I guess at McNair's they even let the pony kids show, so she's been showing since she was six years old, she's 21. Uh, and so sometimes she's more into it than others. Um, and I'm kind of like that too. I I when she started riding at McNair's, I started back taking lessons again and doing little on-site shows and things like that just for fun while I was working as a stress reliever, and really found that horses are uh therapeutic for me, and I know they are for my daughter as well. She's a very serious student in school, and and when she doesn't ride, she suffers um a lot just stress-wise. And when she gets around horses, uh everything changes and and the anxiety goes way down, and and um I'm the same way. So that's kind of how I got started and why I stuck with it for so long.

Rose Cushing 2:55

So how did you tight decide to become an attorney and connect that back to the equine world?

Dottie Burch 3:02

Oh, that's kind of funny because that was certainly not an intention when I went to law school. I did not think, oh gosh, I think I'll be an equine lawyer. Um it sort of happened by accident because I I went to law school at in Chapel Hill at Carolina and came out and worked, have been at the same firm, worked at the same firm when I was in school, and have been working at the same law firm uh the whole time. And so I'll be 30 years in September, which I can't believe. Um during those 30 years, every time anything to do with a horse came in the door, since I'm the only lawyer in the firm that really knows anything about a horse, they just sent it to me automatically, regardless of what it was, because they didn't understand the terminology, and that's a big problem. But all horse people understand that when you're talking to somebody who's not a horse person, there's a lot of explanation you have to do. And when you're talking um to another horse person, you don't have to explain all these terms and things. So I got stuck with all that, and um you know it's really not that different than other law in the basics in what makes a contract or what a dispute looks like or how easy it is to resolve a dispute. But the difference is the language and the accessibility to the horse community. Um so over the years I just kept getting more calls, and the people I would help would refer other people, and after a while I had this small group of horse people, and I thought, well, gosh, I might as well market this because you know we're always thinking about ways to develop clients, and it's something I love, and you always hear everybody all these self-help people saying you need to do what you love, do what you love, do what you love. So I thought, well, I'm a lawyer, so I've kind of already done that, so I can't undo that. So how can I make being a lawyer more about something I love? And I started marketing. I I remember thinking to myself, I think this equine law is a thing. And in North Carolina, it really hasn't been that much, but in Kentucky it's a huge thing. Yeah. In New York, it's a thing. In Florida, it's a huge thing, in California, it's a thing. Texas, obviously, it's a thing. Um, probably Kentucky more than anywhere. They have the largest equine bar, I would guess, just because of the racing industry and all the the whole state is about horses. So I went to um an equine law conference, which is a national gathering of all the most preeminent equine lawyers in the country. And that was gosh, 15 years ago, and fell in love and met a lot of other people that were very encouraging and learned how to market more effectively, and it's just kind of blown up from there. And um, I I I get so many calls every week, it's it's crazy. And almost all my pro bono work now, I believe seriously and um very seriously in giving back to the community. So all of my pro bono work is for horse people that can't afford to pay me. And and my most fun-paying work is for horse people that can't afford to pay me. So it's really been great for me. And it uh while I would say it's not the majority of what I do now, it's probably at least 50%, maybe a little more than 50%. Um might be might be actually the majority, but I I think we're hovering more at like 30, 40 or 50 percent.

Rose Cushing 6:15

Well, you know, speaking about horse terms and and being understood amongst horse peoples, I can see where your services would just be so valuable because so many deals in the horse world are made verbally. Unfortunately. And you think that both of you get it, but not necessarily don't understand the same way. So tell me a little bit about the most common questions that you get asked.

Dottie Burch 6:40

Um what's interesting because oral agreements um can be enforceable. It's extremely hard to prove what you agree to orally unless you have a recording of it, or even if you have people standing there, people don't want to get involved in your dispute when you're having an argument with somebody. So they're not really anxious to come sign an affidavit or appear in court on your behalf and make somebody else in the horse world mad. Um, but the that the oral agreement probably underlies the vast majority of the calls I get, um, especially when it comes to buying and selling and leasing horses. People will say, you know, they told me this horse was bomb-proof and it threw my grandchild and she got hurt. Um, or you know, they said I could have this horse and now they want it back. That's a huge one. And, you know, lots of different situations where people make a promise orally, promise to give me a baby when her horse folds this spring and she didn't. All kinds of things, everything you can think of. The problem with it is people don't realize that you may think it's oral and it may be oral, but if you start texting these days, there really aren't many oral, purely oral agreements. Because people have got now got texts or Facebook messages or emails that are quite cryptic. So there's they're not really contracts, they're terrible because they only have you know 15 words in there, and so now we're all left to interpret what these 15 words mean. Right. Um so it's almost worse than it being purely oral because it's confusing and unclear and gives rise to more um self-righteousness in the people who have the text who think it means X, and then the other people on the other side getting adamant that that's not at all what it meant, it meant Y. So those issues come up a lot. Um, a lot of issues about boarding facilities not getting paid. Can I sell this horse? And the answer is yes, but it's quite an arduous process. And the horse council was was effective at getting a modification to the impoundment statute that helps. So if somebody abandons a horse at your facility, um the the legislature has now provided that you can sell that horse if you make a certain effort to find the owner and get paid. Um that that's probably the second most common. The first most common definitely is the I got a horse and it's not what they said it was. That's definitely the number one.

Rose Cushing 9:09

Very good. So as you've gone along with your career in the equine law, do you still have time to ride? If you're like me, I always just think of big rides once around the house.

unknown 9:22

Yeah.

Dottie Burch 9:24

Um I hmm, that's a good question. Because I don't I I probably have made more excuses. I probably could if I was more focused on it. I have done what so many moms do, and once my child got really into it and started showing it bigger shows and things, uh, I took the money that I would have spent up for myself and spent it on my child, which you know we all do. And now that she's 21 and she's she's gonna be going to medical school next year, so she thinks she told me the other day that mom, I don't think I can ride and go to school. And I said, Lord, your mental health is gonna suffer. And she said, Well, I just don't think I can do it because it's a lot of work. And the she said, You need to get a horse, mom, you need to get a horse. So, you know, I probably rode regularly from for about eight years, 2006 to 2014. And I've ridden sporadically since then. I've got a lot of clients, obviously now, that have horses, and and they all, including you, have said, come on out and ride anytime you want to. And um, and I have some a lot. I have a good friend um at Portofino out in Clayton, she's lovely, Sandra Thompson, and she has graciously invited me to come ride her Tennessee walkers with her, which I had never done before. Right. So that was a lot of fun because it's a totally different kind of ride from what I'm used to in the hunter jumper world. So um I do things like that and I visit with clients and ride when I can. Um, but as my child is is fleeing the nest, I think I may get back into it. And that's the great thing about horses, is that it doesn't matter how old you are, you can still get back into it. I remember at McNair's we had this lovely lady who would come out, she was in her 70s, and her doctor told her it was good for her to canter because um it strengthened her spine. And so she would come out every morning and canter her horse around. And it was so exciting for me to see, you know, gosh, I can do that regardless of how old I am. If I can try to stay somewhat healthy so I can get up there, yeah, then uh I'll be able to do it for a long, long time. So I'm looking forward to doing more.

Rose Cushing 11:29

I've kind of been in and out, as most people are in the horse world. It's an interesting fact that in our industry, most women come back to it later in life after their kids because they have the time and the money, and until then it doesn't collide. Right, right, exactly. So Cushing Media is proud to present our first event for 2021, our Everything Equine Expo, a tribute to horse women. April 16th through 18th at the Lake Waukama Equestrian Center, Bill Thompson Lane, Lake Waukama, North Carolina. Our Colt Starting will feature six of the finest cowgirls in the business. Even the horses for Colt Starting will be fillies and provided by Lost Creek Cattle Company of Tennessee. Professional demos, trail challenge, colt starting, and equestrian entertainment show on Saturday night. Tickets available online or at the gate for just $30 for the entire weekend, including all events, or $15 per day. Follow us on Facebook at Everything Equine Expo, a cushing media production. What is left on your bucket list for things you want to achieve in in your professional life as well as your horse life?

Dottie Burch 12:49

Um I really like the idea of being able to help more people at one time. Um, as we were discussing before the the microphone came on. There are a lot of the same questions I get that are pretty simple questions, and if I could answer them for a thousand people all at the same time, it would be really helpful. And I do have a blog where I try to do some of that. But people really like to be able to interact. And so I'm considering doing some things like a um a Zoom meeting where lots of people can come and submit questions ahead of time, and I'll try to answer as many as I can. Obviously, when you do something like that, you you're not engaged as their lawyer, you're not officially giving legal advice to anybody. You're a general resource for um overall legal knowledge about a topic. But I think for a lot of these people, it would be really helpful to them for them to understand what the law was. So a lot of it would really just be describing what the law actually is, because there's a lot of rumors about what the law is. Um and then there's what the law actually is. So that would be really helpful for a lot of people, I think. So I I think in terms of that, that's on my bucket list to do that. Um to, and this is really a bucket list item that uh that I would be excited about if I could ever figure out how to do it, is to have some sort of equine law community clinic where um it's a nonprofit that helps horse people. Now that's quite an undertaking, and that's sort of on the dream bucket list, and it would have to have a lot more, I'd have to get Rose to help me get that going and get a lot of people involved to do that. But that would be wonderful. I have a friend who who works as the director of another community law clinic here in town, and um I've seen how effective it's been, and I always think about horse people and how there's so many horse people that just can't afford a lawyer. And I jokingly say, heck, I can't afford myself, um, because it's expensive to hire a lawyer. And I wish there was a way that we could get it commoditized to the point where people could take small bites of the legal knowledge and actually have good legal knowledge and get some help. Instead of, you know, my cousin's friend who's a lawyer, a bankruptcy lawyer, said I should do this with my horses. Um sometimes that's not the best advice that you get. Um, but personally, as to horses, I would love to, of course, you know, one day have a partner who love to ride to. Uh, I'm single at the moment, and it would be lovely to find a uh a guy who really liked horses and liked to ride with me. And I'd love to, I would say I'd love to have a farm, but I know so many people with a farm that they all joke and say, you just want to live next door to a farm. Absolutely. So maybe I want to live on a beautiful piece of property right next door to a farm where I could have my own horses, that would be great. And I would love to do one of those um equitracking adventures in Europe. Wouldn't that be cheap?

Rose Cushing 15:50

Wouldn't that be cool?

Dottie Burch 15:51

Yeah. I I have a friend who did it in France, and she said it was just amazing. They'd be you know galloping across these fields in Provence in France, and I think that would be super cool to do that. That would really be cool. Very much so if we ever get to leave the country again. I know, right?

Rose Cushing 16:08

If we can travel. Um, so tell me a little bit about how do you feel like COVID has affected your equine law practice?

Dottie Burch 16:16

Well, um, I got a lot of calls right at the very beginning when everything shut down about what do I do from from boarding facilities. What do I do? Do I close down my boarding facility? Do I keep everybody out? They're freaking out because they want to be rid of the horses, and and so you know, we were really just making stuff up back then because there was no guidance at all. And and I can remember um trying to come up with a plan with various boarding facilities where you know you assign people a time where they can come out and be with their horse, and and basically people had to sign up to come uh ride or take care of the horse or whatever. Um obviously there would be exceptions for emergencies, but um, that was challenging because we we were in the wild, wild west, we didn't know what we were doing. We were just trying our best to you know protect people, protect the horses, protect ourselves, uh liability issues, if somebody gets COVID out here and I haven't been strict enough, you know, that kind of stuff was really a major concern for people. And I, you know, there were kind of two camps. The two camps were leave me alone, let me do whatever I want, which is not an unusual camp to be in if you're a horse person.

Rose Cushing 17:25

We can't be successful without your donations as our partners. Every event that Cushing Media Productions produce donates one dollar from ticket sales to Cushing Equestrian Fund. Join us, Cushing Equestrian Fund, your trusted source in an emergency. Follow us on Facebook and you can donate on our website, www.cushingmedia.net.

Dottie Burch 17:50

I want to be super responsible and take care and not have anybody get sick because I'm really worried about you know people getting sick and and kind of overreacting. So we had both and trying to kind find a middle ground that was um something nobody liked. They say in in the law, if uh a good compromise is when everybody leaves a little bit mad. Yeah. Because that means everybody gave a pound of flesh and um they're not real happy about it, which means you compromise, so that's a good thing. So that came up early on, and as it went along, um I have some clients who are show managers, and they were really effective, and the horse council was helpful too in um getting lobbied that the horse shows could could begin or continue, or I guess they did pause for a little bit. Um they could start again. And other than that, I mean I've had people lose their jobs and call and say, I can't uh afford to take care of my horse anymore, I want to give it away. And I've written up some um donation papers for for rescues or for gifts, gift uh bill of gift for transfers to people for free, free leases, things like that have probably increased more than usual because of people losing their jobs. Um, and I suspect as we get deeper into it and and at coming out of it, there'll be a lot of squabbles about what happened during, and I'll be hearing a lot about that.

Rose Cushing 19:17

I suspect so. You know, ironically, from all my col connections in the horse world, the horse industry has boomed. And horses are selling for more than they would have sold for two years. Because everybody wants to be outside. Yeah, and it's just crazy good. Everybody I know tells me that their business has done better than it had ever done before. And I I as far as I know, uh-huh, not one case of COVID has been tracked back to a horse event, which is really cool. Yeah, I hadn't heard of one either.

Dottie Burch 19:44

And I I've heard I know people that have ponies that are trying to give them away half usually. Yeah. Because kids grow up, they you know, we can do with the pony, the pony lives forever. Yeah. Um, and I heard the other day at a meeting that I can't get ponies fast enough to to sell them to people, so I guess. Parents are taking their kids outside and getting them on horses now. Uh when they're when the pandemic's over and they're broke. Yeah. Two of which will happen. Having been there myself as a pony mom, um, it'll be interesting to see what happens to all these ponies. And I know people are starting to breed more ponies too, so I'm a little bit of concern being a lawyer and being worried, of course, uh always seeing the the downside. I'm a little concerned we'll be have a glut of of ponies um after this is all over or it winds down. I hope not. And I hope people stay addicted to the horse like so many of us get. And I hope that it continues to boom and and do well. That would be fantastic if this was the event that spurred a whole resurgence of interest in in horse sports. That would be awesome. I'd love that.

Rose Cushing 20:46

That that is awesome. I I guess it's about the only sport in the world that you can actually do all by yourself except for golf.

Dottie Burch 20:52

That's right. And you've got like a therapist underneath you.

Rose Cushing 20:54

Absolutely. It's awesome. You've got a partner that you you don't have to worry about necessarily.

Dottie Burch 20:58

Exactly, and they they like make you sane. It's uh it's a wonderful thing.

Rose Cushing 21:02

I joke in my first podcast about me about horse fever, because when I I met my second husband, I told him, I said, Don't ever let me pet a horse, because if you do, then it's on. Yeah. And eventually time went by and and I did, and and the rest is history, but but thank goodness he caught it too.

Dottie Burch 21:19

Yeah, and there's some Ralph Waldo Emerson quote about how well there's a Churchill one about the inside of a man, or the outside of a man is like I can't remember what it is. The inside of a horse.

Rose Cushing 21:29

The outside of a horse is is the best thing for the inside of a man or something like that.

Dottie Burch 21:34

And then um at McNair's they had one Ralph Waldo Emerson quote on the mirror in the bathroom at McNair's. I remember it was stuck up there. I think Caroline McNair, Carl, put it up there and it said something like, um, horses are not something, a hobby that you can put down and walk away from. It grabs a hold of you and it basically has you for the rest of your life. And that is totally paraphrased and and not to to insult Emerson with my attempt to recite it, but it's true, it's so true.

Rose Cushing 22:04

Well I I find that, you know, with my my magazines and things that I used to publish that people that weren't horse people picked them up all the time because even though you don't own one, it doesn't mean you don't love them.

Dottie Burch 22:14

Oh yeah, and pe I mean horses are so romantic. I mean, and then people definitely have romanticized views of what it's like to have one. For sure. Um but I think it's a tribute to them and their therapeutic effect on people that so many people are drawn to them and they do so much good for so many. And and I hope that we can continue to fight for the groups of people that take care of them, and and you know, whether it's BLM out in Nevada, whether, you know, trying to deal with those issues or local rescues or whatever, um, to the extent we can get involved and help take care of these horses so that they're you know we're giving back to them all the wonderful things that get back to us. I agree a hundred percent.

Rose Cushing 22:59

Well, I really appreciate your time today. Sure, I think. And how can people reach you if they they want to talk to you about becoming their equine attorney or business attorney? I I've used you for both things, and you're fabulous either way.

Dottie Burch 23:10

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Um we have a website, rl-law.com, and I'm on there. Dorothy is my real name, um, and I'm under Dorothy Birch on there, and you can click on that and see my bio and read all about me, probably more than you ever want to know. And has all my contact information. Um my phone number, if you have something to write with, is 919-881-2206. And my email is d Birch D B U R C H at R L Law.com. And I would love to hear from you. And if you have a short, quick question, a lot of times I'll just answer that for free for people. Um if you have a more involved question, I do have a um, I instituted a policy a couple of years ago uh to where you could it my regular rate's four hundred dollars an hour, which is a lot, and um I realize that. So I tried to give people a break, and $99 for 30 minutes is kind of what I'll do for your first call on a matter. And you know, it's it's not just your first ever call to me, it's your first call for that particular matter. So you might have a a lease dispute and you want to call and talk about it. So for 99 bucks, you get me for 30 minutes, and I always talk more than 30 minutes, as you can probably tell from this podcast. I don't hesitate to talk too much. Um and then the next time if you have another issue where um you bought a horse and it wasn't what you thought it was gonna be, which is a very common, a very common call that I get, then the first call for that would be $99 for 30 minutes. And that's kind of helpful so that you even know if you need a lawyer. And I I I tell people all the time, I talk more people out of hiring me than I talk into hiring me. Because it's important for you to understand if your problem is, and and I don't want to say this insultingly, but if it's of a value that is worth going to the trouble to hire a lawyer. Right. You know, if you're talking about a $100,000 horse and you want to fight about it, and you can afford to fight about it, I could not afford to fight about it. I couldn't buy a hundred thousand dollar horse. Um, but it's different than if you're talking about a $1,500 horse that you bought and it's not what you thought it was. You know, that right there is probably a $1,500 lesson that you unfortunately had to learn the hard way, which is how I tend to have to learn everything too. Um But I will tell you the truth and and I will let you know if if I think there's um a good reason for you to hire a lawyer or not. Generally speaking, the best time to hire a lawyer is before you enter into any equine transaction. It is so, so, so much cheaper to hire me to scramble the egg than it is to unscramble the egg after it's all screwed up. Um and I can keep you, and I have clients tell me this all the time, I have I can keep you from doing something you probably are going to regret. And I have a lot of clients who just call me and say, I need for you to talk me out of this and tell me why this is a terrible idea, right? Which um which shows that they're making progress, you know. Occasionally I'll say, Well, if you do X, Y, and Z, it might not be a bad idea, but uh I know you're not gonna do that, so it probably is bad. And they're like, Okay, thank you. I knew I needed somebody to tell me that. So I'm I'm good for that too.

Rose Cushing 26:23

So anyway. Well, one thing I know for sure is is that you always deliver way, way more than expectations, and that you're a very generous person, and that there's laws that force you to charge for your service because you are liable at that point for the advice you give. Right. And so people need to understand that too. It's not you know whether or not you want to help them for free, it's just that they're at a certain point it becomes legal and you don't have a choice.

Dottie Burch 26:48

Right, and I do I do I'd say 250 hours a year of of pro bono work for various charities and things, so I definitely give away a lot for free, but um the only thing I have to sell is what's between my ears. So you're getting 30 years of experience in the legal community and pretty good, um, pretty good results over those years. So um would love to help whoever might want to give me a call or shoot me an email.

Rose Cushing 27:15

And you know that's that's a strong point too, because if I'm gonna hire you for 30 minutes, I want somebody that knows what they're talking about and cuts right to the chase and doesn't have to research it and get back to me.

Dottie Burch 27:27

Yeah, you know, so Lord help you if you call a lawyer who doesn't know anything about a horse. They call me. There you go, there you go.

Rose Cushing 27:35

Well, thank you so much, Toddy, and I look forward to working with you in the future as always.

Dottie Burch 27:39

Absolutely great to see you, Rose.

Rose Cushing 27:41

Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's show. Our souls wander in similar places, even though we may not know each other, we touch the same wind, we walk under the same sky, and our hearts wander in the same dreams. We are one. Women, just like you and me. Thank you for listening.