Releasing Victim Mindsets for Healthier Relationships and Environments

Are you unintentionally playing the victim in your own life? Discover how self-victimization might be affecting your relationships and holding you back from leading a fulfilling life. In this personal and heartfelt episode, we share our appreciation for the beautiful environment we live in and the relationships that enrich our lives, while exploring the challenging concept of self-victimization.

Inspired by a heartwarming letter from a listener, we discuss the power of breaking free from the chains of our upbringing and creating a loving environment for our children. However, it's not always easy to recognize when we're playing the role of a victim in our own lives. Join us as we take an honest look at the relationships we have and the role we play in them, and consider the significance of analyzing what we get out of our connections, even those that are challenging for us.

As we wrap up our conversation, we take a look at the culture we live in and how it can shape our relationships and our children. We discuss how unsupportive environments can lead to a lack of discipline and how it is important for parents to teach their children to value truth. We extend our gratitude to those who have shared their experiences and stories with us and encourage you to stay connected with us for another thought-provoking discussion next week.

Exercise:

Look at your life and the things you were taught. What have you done to avoid being a victim?

Are there ways in which you are behaving like a victim?

Are you placing blame on others instead of looking within?

Is someone in your life “owning you”?

Take the Personality and Character Profiles at TaylorHartman.com.

Send questions and comments to Taylor@TaylorHartman.com Or Cathy@TaylorHartman.com with “Podcast” in the subject line.

Transcript

Taylor Hartman: 0:13

Hello listeners. This is Dr Taylor Hartman, with Very Best of Living, i'm with my good friend Kat Larson. Hello Kat, how are you?

Cathy Larsen: 0:21

Good morning my loves. How's everybody? Good morning.

Taylor Hartman: 0:24

Good Life is good. Yeah, how about you?

Cathy Larsen: 0:26

Yeah, Yes, It's already. I mean, you know how summer is. It just seems to go so fast because there's so much we all want to do right.

Taylor Hartman: 0:34

It's the best time. I mean, you're absolutely right about that, yeah, and I love how it stays light, light, or it's wonderful right? Exactly So. it's like appreciating what you have in that moment, living where we live, and just the beauty of the mountains where I live, and I just feel so blessed to have that environment to have around me, right.

Taylor Hartman: 0:54

Yes, the same is true of relationships. I mean I look at some people that I really just enjoy being with and others that are more of an effort. Talk about relationships. Esther Perrell made a comment once. If it's told you what I believe, the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our life. And when you think about the people you bring into your life and for some people, by the way, that isn't necessarily easy They can be born into difficult families.

Taylor Hartman: 1:21

One of the companies I consult for is working with that are toxic and they're difficult, and it goes throughout the entire organization. Everyone is fear-based, micromanaging, not trusting, and it colors all of their experiences at work and any vendors that come work with them. And that's true also of families and marriages and friendships. The culture of who you run with and how you run with them does really impact your life. So we received a letter that I'm going to share with our listeners. I love this letter.

Taylor Hartman: 1:54

Out of the blue, it's got this great letter from one of our listeners who said I just received the most beautiful text from my daughter. It made my entire day, my year, my life. I have to share it with you because we have both been following your podcasts and we constantly talk about healthy versus unhealthy. The girl has been through tragedy and yet she lifts me up. My heart is full. My daughter's text. I just wanted to say I love the mom, woman, best friend that you have come to be. You may have had a crummy upbringing, but you never showed that to us. You loved, love us with your whole heart. Thank you for teaching me how to love.

Taylor Hartman: 2:38

And the response from our listener was this is the best text I have ever gotten in my entire life. I love you so. And then she wrote to us. Today I realized that I truly broke the chains of my upbringing of child abuse, both physical and verbal. I vowed that if I ever had children, I would never do to them what my parents did to me. I think that I might have succeeded. I'm telling you, kat, does it get any better than that? I mean the beauty of that woman actually stopping the abuse and providing love and teaching how to love to her daughter And then responding to taking the time to say you're the best friend I could ever have And thank you for teaching me how to love, wow. I gotta go Listener.

Taylor Hartman: 3:26

Yeah, i know, isn't that moving? And, listeners, you need to know how much we appreciate like sending this letter to us so we could go along with your journey. You're going along our journey and we'd love to go along your journey as well, and it was just terrific. So thank you very much for sharing that with us, and it's a shout out to all of you listeners that have made a difference in your life and cut the strings of damage that may have been inflicted on you. We're going to talk about this a little bit.

Taylor Hartman: 3:52

So I have this new thing that I'm really, really concerned about. It's called victimization, and I am a firm believer, by the way, that we are all victims in life. Like you get hit by things, a husband or wife cheats on you, a car hits you on the freeway, a teacher doesn't like you as a student and grades you down versus positively, we all struggle with different kinds of hits, which makes us victims. Now, that's one element of being a victim. It depends on what you do with it. Obviously, that makes truly what mental health is all about.

Taylor Hartman: 4:29

But there's another form of victimization that I want to talk about that I shared with one of our listeners by email recently.

Taylor Hartman: 4:37

And that's when you victimize yourself, when you allow yourself to be put into a corner in relationships you have and you can't quite figure out what your role is in that, what you're doing to allow yourself to be victimized by yourself, meaning your own lack of self-esteem, self-confidence, you allow the world to take advantage and you can't quite own that. You own that you're being victimized by someone else but you can't own that you're victimizing yourself. And that's intriguing to me because I was doing this workshop recently and in the workshop we were talking about what irritates you And a man shared the fact that he is so irritated that his neighbor across the street brings his dog over to his lawn and has him poop and then he cleans up the poop and puts it in this guy's trash can And it irritates him so much. And his wife has said you cannot say anything because you'll hit him like you cannot do that, you're just too, you're too aggressive. So we're talking about this and it's it's comical when it's not your lawn. Right, it's attacked right.

Taylor Hartman: 5:45

But as the story unfolded and he shared more details, it was so intriguing to get a better perspective. At one point there was an empty lot where their house is now, where the dog poops. He was trained to poop in the empty lot. That's what he was taught to do, so you have to untrain him from something he was given permission to do for a long time. And yet at one point the gentleman that was in the class was so upset he actually took a shovel and lifted all the poops that was there and put it on the person's lawn who owns the dog Right? And so we were all saying well, you also have fed into this. Then Clearly you have ownership in this jaded relationship that's going on and your wife have a point that you probably is better you don't confront him with your anger. And so as we talked about this, i kept saying I digging deeper.

Taylor Hartman: 6:36

When I was in my PhD program, i remember the professor from Chicago who came out and said he was talking about how people do what they do because they get something out of it. Like you and I do the podcast because we gained something from it or we wouldn't do it Right. People listen to the podcast because they gain something from it, or they wouldn't listen. You stay in marriages because you get something out of it. And so I was saying and so in the class I was very naive and I said well, that's not fair to say that about prostitutes, like they're doing it because they have no choice, but they're victims. And he goes no, no, you have a very short career as a psychotherapist if you don't understand that everybody, including the prostitutes we're talking about, do it because they get something out of it or they would not do it. Now I'm not telling you it's healthy for them. I'm not saying it's always good what people are getting, but they are getting something. And, kat, i am telling you I've used up my entire career and I say to people all the time what are you getting out of this? 90% of the time I hear nothing. They say I'm getting nothing, there's nothing, i am getting out of it. And I'm like dig a little deeper.

Taylor Hartman: 7:42

So this man I said that he said I'm getting nothing out of it. I said let's think about that for a minute. You're getting something because you're putting a lot of energy into it. Could it be that you get that? you're a better person than him. Like you would never do what he's doing to someone. He's doing it to you. You're a better person, so your pride is lifted up at his expense. And he said I have never thought about it that way, which typical for all of us like when we're doing something, we justify our behavior instead of looking deeper and going what am I getting out of this? So it got me to thinking about how we let people own us, and they're the ones we're most frustrated with. Like think about the person in your life that has taken the most energy from you. Typically, they own you. You can't let them go, and typically you think of them as less than not better than for doing what they're doing to you.

Taylor Hartman: 8:39

So I want people, or our audience, to think about What is it I'm gaining by being stuck with lots of energy going out towards the people in our lives we don't do well with. What is that about, and is that where we wanna put our energy? Or could we gain an experience from this that could teach us to be a better person, a healthier person with better mental health? For example, we talked to this group. What could this man do differently than he's doing right now, which is not working. And the conversation was could you have a conversation with him and say I love that you pick up the poop after he poops in my yard. Would you please put it in your trash? can Not mine? I mean, you could say that, right. And my thought was like why can you not find the comedy in this? Like it's so bizarre. It's like you have a free television show, you're going through all the time And you're not enjoying the comic. That's involved in this process of living with this person.

Cathy Larsen: 9:37

I'd buy a trash can and put neighbor's dog poop on it. I'd put a sign right on top of it, so he had one right there, yeah.

Taylor Hartman: 9:49

Little passive, aggressive, which is not uncommon for people to be there, and we justify it. The point is, we justify it And there are many solutions, because one of the guys in the class said I don't know why it's such a problem, like I don't even I could care less, doesn't matter me at all. Put it in my trash can. That's what they're for. But for those people who get very irritated or upset, i think it might be a great experience for you to start by looking for what is it that I'm getting out of this, letting it own me, and why is it? why is it, what is it about this person's action that offends me so much?

Cathy Larsen: 10:26

I have a question. When people come from a, i mean like this is a mindset right, victim is a mindset Right. So when that kind of rules your life, is that the way? so that's just the way they're looking at the world.

Taylor Hartman: 10:38

Correct.

Cathy Larsen: 10:40

And what does that look like to a victim? Is they're looking at the world? What is that Like if you have a red? are reds usually victims?

Taylor Hartman: 10:47

They tip it. Well, they can be victims. When they let someone own their temper, Yeah. When they blow up, Yeah for sure.

Taylor Hartman: 10:53

When you are a victim, how you're seeing the world is it's unfair. I'm not being treated as I deserve to be. I've been wronged. I'm smaller and it's bigger. It owns me. I shouldn't be owned by it.

Taylor Hartman: 11:08

It's very much a one down perspective, What it is, And it limits your life, And so it's so very important for you to wonder why am I always seeing the world in that perspective, As though I'm? and in fact, there's just one woman I was working with that I said you don't realize you're so afraid of being cheated on, but you allow yourself to be cheated on, And nobody likes to hear that. Like they want to be the victim. Right, Don't tell me it's my fault. Like I'm just telling you.

Taylor Hartman: 11:36

It's happened repeatedly in your life and you ought to be wondering what does it I do to present the message that I could be cheated on? Because I know plenty of women that they the spouse knows if they do that, it's done, It's toast. So what are they presenting differently than she's presenting? Right, And remember you can only control you. You can't control the outside forces. So, like this gentleman trying to work with a dog, he can't control the dog, he can't control his owner, He can't control that. All he can control is him. And yet it's easier to focus on everyone else and what they should be doing than ourselves.

Cathy Larsen: 12:14

So the antithesis of a victim mindset in this scenario would be go knock on the door and solve the problem together. Is that what you would do?

Taylor Hartman: 12:24

That would let it go. Remember the anchor cycle. You have two options. Well, three options. One you can sit and wallow in it, right, which is what this guy's doing, right, so you can confront the issue. And number three you can jump ship And you should do the thing that works most effectively given the circumstance. So, for example, if someone's gonna repeatedly do something to you, you may be better off having a conversation instead of just letting it roll. But, on the other hand, if you're the kind of person that, more I think about it, i really don't care, then that would free you as well. So you have those three options.

Cathy Larsen: 12:56

No, that's good, That's so good. I always wonder why, like when you stay in victim, like what is the payoff for most people that they're not wrong, that they don't you know? is that what it is? I mean, what do you see in your work, Like what's the biggest payoff of being a victim?

Taylor Hartman: 13:12

That they're noble, like, aren't they wonderful? They're so good about putting up with this. They're better than you are. Who's doing it to them? So they're more noble, they're like a saint. I said that to a woman in a training the other day she was talking about well, my problem is every time I'm gonna be so helpful and then no one respects that. I said, oh my gosh, get the same hood. You already got it. Like how noble. You're always trying to help And it doesn't. It backfires. If that's what's happening, then you have ownership in this. How can I be the owner? I'm not doing anything wrong. I said obviously what you're doing is not working for you or for them, so what's your role in that? It's really tough for people to look inside and go what is my deal? What am I doing that I'm getting something out of this for?

Cathy Larsen: 14:00

Oh, that's so good. I was just working with somebody that runs a team And we were talking about this person that wasn't performing up to the level that he wanted.

Taylor Hartman: 14:09

Yeah.

Cathy Larsen: 14:10

And he was like I've done everything, i've done this and that, and so I just kind of threw some of this conversation out at him, you know, cause we do coaching with people at Hartman Color Code. And so it was about four days And he finally, you know, he called me and he said you know, i'm answering the questions that you asked me, kat, and here's what it is is that I just want to make sure this person likes me. And I said I said okay, so so. So this mixed message of do your work you know he's being very harsh and do and like get your work done, but then making sure that that person liked him. So come back and are you okay, can I help you? And then being harsh, and then coming back and are you okay?

Cathy Larsen: 14:52

And he finally figured it out. But I think that that people can be victim that way too, victim to these mindsets that they're not even aware of until you go, what are you doing? Like, like the woman you talk to right.

Taylor Hartman: 15:04

Right. Well, interestingly enough. So when we finished with this man with the dog issue, he said well, i just what I just learned is I'll never bring something else up here. And I said, oh my gosh, you, you loving a victim. Like how wonderful. Now, now, woe is you, because you actually revealed something that showed you an error and you ought to work on it. And now you're saying I just won't bring anything up anymore because I'm such a victim. It's so funny when people don't realize how they stand out as a victim. It's amazing.

Cathy Larsen: 15:31

Did it open his eyes? Did that open his eyes?

Taylor Hartman: 15:34

Oh, oh yeah. And I said and we're not done. Oh, trust me, we're not done with this. Well, i, next week I'll be asking the same question. So tell me what happened, we're not done with it. I mean, if you are willing to put it out there, I'm going to follow through until you tell me I choose no longer to get healthier, i don't want to grow, right. But I am very patient with people, kind of finding their way because they've been a victim for a long time. Sure, can't just turn that around overnight, sure, but being empowered, being loving when others are not, being forgiving when you don't want to, those are very empowering moves to make instead of letting someone own you and staying the victim. Now, by the way, that does not mean it is not right to set boundaries. It's great to set boundaries. That's not the problem. It's more the mindset that's going on inside your head.

Cathy Larsen: 16:22

Yes.

Taylor Hartman: 16:23

Right. I really wanted to listen, to think about this, the idea of am I like this woman that was abused verbally and physically growing up? she could have been a victim and I've heard thousands of clients tell me well, that's how they were raised, so that's why they do what they do. She could have been one of those, but that's not her. She said if I ever have children, i will never treat them this way and didn't. So take a look at your life, at things you've been taught, and what have you done to eradicate the victim in it. What have you done to change that picture so you're not the victim and you're not continuing the abuse?

Cathy Larsen: 17:07

What I heard you say is that. So victimization looks like externalizing blame, like I blame you for it, right, correct, and then I get entitled and self-righteous because I'm just saying I have a right to feel this way, that you are wrong, because I can prove it.

Taylor Hartman: 17:27

And I'm putting up with you, i'm better than you are Like I would never do that to somebody else. Therefore, i'm better than you. It's amazing how you can twist that thinking so bad. I see that in marriages all the time, like they're the victim and they feel like I am noble because I'm putting up with. Meanwhile, they're critical of the other person and self-righteously believing they are a better person for putting up with the person than what person's doing. And I'm saying no, you're not better. That's not true. You've decided that what you're doing is better. It doesn't mean it is true.

Taylor Hartman: 18:02

So people get twisted in their thinking about what good mental health really looks like. It does not hold grudges. It does not aggrandize yourself the expense of other people. It doesn't stay in a relationship that's abusive and think you're noble for doing so. It doesn't do any of those things. So that's very, very critical for our listeners to understand. Take yourself down a trip of growth. Take yourself down a trip that says what could I do to be more effective at this relationship And also ask the question who owns me? That's a really important one. Like who in my life do I put a lot of energy into and realize that somebody next to you gets along with them fine, so maybe it's you that could change how you see yourself in that relationship.

Cathy Larsen: 18:48

Do you think we're in a place like, if you look at large that is victimization always been around or is it more? is it present itself more to you when you look at things or look at your clients and talk with your clients, and do you think it's more so these days than it has been or about the same? I do, kat, you do.

Taylor Hartman: 19:06

No, i think pettiness has always been with us. There are people who just can't own their stuff, so they blame the world. I mean, that's been around forever. Right, it started with Cain and Abel. It's not my fault I killed him, but it's not my fault. But I think it's much worse today. For example, when I was growing up, if a teacher told my mom I was misbehaving, there's not one time my mother said well, i'm sure it's your fault, the teacher, not one time. She's like okay, let's talk about that. I want you to get that straightened around. That's not how we act in school, done, but today, i would think, more say they defend their child than defend the teacher. Yes, So you're teaching a young person to believe they are not wrong. They are right when they're wrong, and that's very sad because you learn it early on, right, and you get away with it. You continue to act that way. So our culture is feeding that. Mm-hmm.

Taylor Hartman: 20:04

Very, very sad.

Cathy Larsen: 20:06

So for our listeners and me, I'm a listener, I'm listening, So what if I'm unaware? so I'm sitting here going. You know what if people don't know if they're a victim? What if I'm like listening to them? Yes, I know a lot of people like that, but then I really need to listen to myself. What would be some questions or places for somebody to start to go? If you think this, you could be a victim. If you think this, this is probably something you need to work on in terms of how you're, you know, a victim in the world, Because sometimes people aren't aware of it, right?

Taylor Hartman: 20:36

They don't know I agree. Oh, i agree with you on that. So let's talk about this. So some things you can look at. Number one is the solution to my problem outside my control. So if I believe the answer that I need to find is gonna lie with someone else, not myself, you're pretty much a victim.

Cathy Larsen: 20:58

So dog poop guy, dog poop guy, that's out of his control 100%.

Taylor Hartman: 21:03

Yeah, he absolutely believes all of it lies with the guy, with the dog, not with himself. Okay, another thought is am I happy or sad about whatever I'm tied to? Is it enhancing my life or detracting from my life? And another question is how long have I allowed this to own me Like? is there a history that goes with this tied to it? I think that's so hard for people to identify how many years they have allowed victimization in regard to someone.

Taylor Hartman: 21:35

Very, very important for people to really think about. Can I own this? Can I fix this, or am I waiting for someone else to? because they are the problem? Is my life working and effective? And if so, what am I doing to make it that way? Or, if it's not, am I putting the blame where it doesn't belong, waiting for it to fix, waiting for it to fix itself? The woe is me. Am I trying to help the other person win? Am I trying to enhance their experience with me, or am I pulling back? Am I regressive? Am I angry?

Taylor Hartman: 22:10

I can always judge my role in a relationship with how much energy I'm putting into making them successful, and when you're not, it tends to suggest you have issues. Now, typically, we think well, of course we have issues. Look what I'm putting up with. That's not correct. Of course I have issues because look what I'm doing and thinking wrong. Life is going to send us messages all the time that we're the problem and we'll spend our entire life rejecting them Until we're humble enough to go. Well, let me just hear how it might be me and see if I can do something with that before we reject it. The more secure you are, the more willing you are to embrace the possibility that you have an issue. The more insecure you are, you can't.

Taylor Hartman: 22:57

The more insecure you can't no, you're too busy defending the turf.

Cathy Larsen: 23:02

You can't hold on to It's funny when you started the conversation about. You know, like the people you surround yourself with. I think this is so critical because I just remember, you know, i was raised in this place where if you questioned or if, say, somebody said something that was like you know, like you're talking about. Like if the dad said That idiot, you know, dog poop, you know. Right was going off if I had said as somebody in the household like, well, dad, just go one, two, three. Yeah, that was never.

Cathy Larsen: 23:36

I mean it was a place to go right right then you learn at a very early age, when you are with people, to kind of jump into the victimization instead of going hey, you know, hold on. There's a different way to look at this. We just don't know how to do that readily.

Taylor Hartman: 23:51

Right, that's so true and it takes a lot of confidence and courage. Do that? yes, especially in a home like you were raised in. Yes, it's not an easy thing to speak up at all. No, your repercussions are so severe.

Taylor Hartman: 24:04

But the problem I have with that is I'm not holding you as a child hostage to that, i'm holding you as an adult Hostage to that if you're continuing that behavior. So you could say, for example, what you don't understand either, what happened if I were to speak up, is this and this and this, and so that happened 40 years ago. And you're telling me that's still the reason. Correct, well, and you're like. You're like well, it's hard to get rid of that. You have to understand. That's how I grew up, correct? I'm like no, no, no, that's what I don't buy. Yes, the 40 years later is like. No, now you have ownership.

Taylor Hartman: 24:36

Remember my theory that at 18, whatever happened you before that, it's yours. Figure out what you're gonna do with it. Can't put it on anyone else after that. But there are people, cat like you, who have shifted that perspective as they've grown, because you realized your dad wasn't as happy as he could Have been even better. So why do I want to be like that right Right. That's so healthy, it's so positive, but I wouldn't say it's common.

Cathy Larsen: 25:00

I wouldn't say that well, I see it all the time like if you're with a group of friends. I was at my daughter and her roommate And we were just talking about that like you know, when you surround yourself with people, that when you tell the truth, or or.

Cathy Larsen: 25:14

Right you know you can't be like well, hey, sorry, That's the truth. You know you can't be brutally honest with people because I think that's tough. But I do think that it's very hard because there's this wanting to fit in and wanting to belong to something and I was telling him if you, if you belong to a group when you truly belong, people will listen to that. If you fit in, they're going to you know, emotionally, you know Shun you or you know like kind of roll your eyes or not respond. You know, you know how that feels like.

Cathy Larsen: 25:46

I do with somebody and you say something and it's like Oh.

Taylor Hartman: 25:55

Well, the culture that you agree to as a friendship group does speak to that yes, i thought that but it. But we are talking good mental health and that means you've got to have the courage to Recognize whether it's in your best interest to fit into that kind of group right, or challenge it right or be alone Or be alone Be alone That's exactly right which is not easily done.

Taylor Hartman: 26:15

I don't want to suggest everybody's easy thing to do. I don't think the line to truth is always the easiest path. I think it's the best path and the freest path, but I don't think it's the easiest by any means is it ever the easiest?

Taylor Hartman: 26:29

Well, i think in time it is like it's easy actually easier in the long run like if I tell the truth It's an easier path than I if I lie, but in the moment it may be harder. So in the in the long run I guess I do think that the truth is an easier path to walk, but not in the moment when you're doing it, especially with a group that doesn't value it. Yes, like that's that's really says. And our culture is becoming more and more dysfunctional, like when you have people that are working for an employer Lulu lemon that are fired because they go after somebody trying to still merchandise. I'm like, what is that culture teaching people? and and that's unfortunately happening with our schools, where parents are very unsupportive of disciplines happening there Mm-hmm. I just think we have to understand that there's a cultural piece and it begins in the home, and How you raise your children to believe truth is important is critical to their life success.

Cathy Larsen: 27:26

Correct, yeah, so.

Taylor Hartman: 27:28

Hi, we got a quick for today. It's been a wonderful opportunity to be with you again, cat to tea and our listeners, and I want to thank those who send this wonderful, wonderful email about the connection She made with her daughter on a whole different level than she was raised with. So thank you, and that's off to you all, yep, a great week. We'll talk to you next week.

Cathy Larsen: 27:47

Love you, bye now You.