#93 Helping and Encouraging our Picky Eaters with Aren Dodge, RDN, CDCES

Today's topic is Helping and Encouraging our Picky Eaters and my awesome guest from the last episode, Aren Dodge, is back to help guide us through this tricky subject. Aren is the owner and founder of Dodge Diabetes, she's a registered dietician, a diabetes educator, and she has been living with type 1 diabetes for nearly 30 years. As a diabetes educator, Aren has advanced training from the Ellyn Satter Intitute which you'll learn more about in today's episode. As a diabetes educator, Aren is trained on all of the FDA approved pump systems that are on the market today! Feel like you might need Aren's help? Good news! She's available! Be sure to check out the links below so you can find Aren on the web and on social media. Enjoy the show!

Aren's Website: Dodge Diabetes
Aren on Instagram, @dodge_diabetes
Aren's awesome Facebook Group: Dodge Diabetes Community
Learn more about the Ellyn Satter Institute and the Division of Responsibility
Episode #92 with Aren: Raising a Healthy and Competent Eater

Transcript

Katie: 0:00

Hello, and welcome to episode 93 of the sugar mamas podcast. Today. I'm back with Aren Dodge, registered dietician. Diabetes educator. And a lovely person who has been living with type one diabetes for nearly 30 years. I recorded an episode last week with Aren called raising a healthy and competent eater. That's episode 92. If you want to go back and take a listen. And today our topic. Is how to handle and encourage our picky eaters. This episode is really great for really anybody that has a picky eater in their family. All right. Let's get started. You're listening to the sugar mamas podcast, a show designed for moms and caregivers of type one diabetics here. You'll find a community of like-minded people who are striving daily to keep their kids safe, happy, and healthy in the ever-changing world of type one. I'm your host and fellow T one D mom, Katie Roseboro. Before we get started. I need you to know that nothing you hear on the sugar mamas podcast should be considered medical advice. Please be safe, be smart, and always consult your physician before making changes to the way you manage type one diabetes. Thanks. Hello. I am back today with Aren Dodge, and Erin was on our last episode, episode 92, about raising a healthy eater, just kind of in general, and then kind of looking at that also through the lens of. Having a child with type one diabetes. Aren, just a reminder, is a registered dietician. She's a certified diabetes care and education specialist, which is also known as a diabetes educator. And she's also been living with Type one diabetes for quite some time. Almost 30 years you said?

Aren: 1:50

Yeah. 30 years in January.

Katie: 1:53

Okay. Whew. That diversity is coming up

Aren: 1:56

Mm-hmm.

Katie: 1:56

three decades. That's, that's quite a while.

Aren: 1:59

it's a lot to celebr.

Katie: 2:00

Yes, it absolutely is a lot to celebrate. Lots of strength and resilience Today our episode is going to be specifically on kind of helping your picky eater again, kind of just in general but then also looking at that a little bit through the lens of having a, a child who might be a pick picky eater who also has type one diabetes. So Erin, we're just gonna start with a simple question of what does it mean to be a picky eater? So what is kind of like normal eating and what's considered picky eating for a.

Aren: 2:31

Well, if you think about it through the lens of a child all food is sort of strange and new. And so all kids for the most part have some level of pickiness. if you think about. We've been eating the same foods for years and years and years, and this is literally, even if a five year old has only seen certain foods once or twice. So if you think about trying a new food for the first time, you kind of have to be a little bit skeptical and I feel like A lot of kids. I mean, pick eating is normal for the most part, but there's some cases where it starts to interfere with the atmosphere of the dinner table, and it starts to be kind of become a problem with planning meals and sitting down at the table. So there's a few questions that can help you decide if you have a picky eater. So number one, does your child get upset? She sees unfamiliar food. Does she only ever eat a few, an ever shrinking list of certain foods? Does she worry she'll be unable to eat away from the house or like a friend's house or at a restaurant or something? And then do you make special food for her in order to get her to eat? And then the last one, which is really important is are you upset about her eating? again, The dinner table is supposed to be a joyful sort of place where you get to sit down with your family probably one of the only times during the day because the day is so busy and everybody's rushing around. So any kind of, I feel like kids are even better at sensing tension or anxiety or stress then even adults. So they're really tuned in. And if you have any kind of feelings of Anxiousness around the dinner table, they're gonna know it. so if you feel like you answered a couple of those questions honestly and you'd think you might have a picky eater, then don't worry. We have a lot of tips today that we're gonna go through that can kind of help nudge your eater along your child along to be a more competent eater and to bring a little bit more joy back to your, your family meals.

Katie: 4:36

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm just thinking about my own family and some of my kids are pickier than others. You know, it's so interesting how these kids can come out of the same parents and then just have such, just different personalities, especially when it comes to eating and the willingness, with which they're willing to try new foods and just. It's just crazy how they're all so different. I'm very grateful that Sarah, my type one diabetic is probably my most adventurous eater. She's willing to try the most foods and she loves most vegetables, and so I'm very, I'm very grateful for that. But I'm hoping to pick up some, some tips and tricks today to to deal with my with my boys. My other two kiddos. They're a little bit pickier when it comes. When it comes to eating. So I wanted to ask you, I wanted to ask you, you know, last episode we talked a lot about the Ellen Sadder method. She's world renowned. She, you know, her big thing is kind of the division of responsibility when it comes to feeding your family and your kids coming to the table. So how does just the picky eater fit into the Ellen Satter? Model. And you might wanna give listeners just a quick overview of what the division of responsibility is as a, as a review.

Aren: 5:44

Right. So Ellen Satter kind of combines the psychology side of eating with the nutritional side. And what we know is that you can't make a child eat a food. They have to want to eat it. especially some of your really Hardheaded, you know, strong willed children you can force them to sit at the table for hours before they'll eat that food and get up or not eat it at all, and you just give in. So try to you know, have a positive attitude and energy around the table around eating. But Ellen Satter. If you haven't gone and visited her website it's the Ellen Satter Institute, but the handout that she does for the division of responsibility. gives you guidance as a parent on what your job is with feeding and what the child's job is with eating. And the parent's job is to focus on the what, when and where of meals and snacks. So what you're feeding, when you're feeding it, and where you're gonna have that food. And then the child's responsibility is what to eat from what you're provid. And whether or not to eat at all. So those are the child's choices. So remember to stay in your lane, don't get tempted to kind of veer into their responsibility and even just the slightest. Persuasive way. I always joke about the mom look like, you know, when you give them like, that look like you better eat or you know, what are you doing? You know, stop doing what you're doing right now. And they know exactly what the look is and that is gonna backfire at the table, unfortunately. And what they found is, so remember we know. Kids, it takes 10 to 20 neutral exposures to different, to a new food for a child to come around to warm up to it, for it to lose its strangeness so that they'll actually try it. And that could look like poking it with their finger licking it. Putting it in their mouth and spitting it back into the napkin. That is them moving themselves forward without pressure to decide if they want to eat that food or not. And then after the 10 or 20 times when they've come around to liking that food, they may or may not eat it at that meal that you prepare. So it's really hit or miss and you just have to support that process of the divisional responsibility again. The parent is providing the what, when and where, and the child is deciding what they're going to eat and whether they're going to eat it at all. And this is a really tricky topic to to wrap your head around because it feels opposite of what you should be trying to do as a mom or any kind of caregiver for that matter around meals. think the divisional responsibility, if you can kind of set and follow those guidelines, you'll really see more eating competence with your kids. You're gonna find that they eat more variety of foods and they're more curious to try new foods. But just like anything else with parenting, you wanna look at the long game. And with diabetes too, it's not just getting them to eat vegetables tonight, it's supporting them. Physically and emotionally with those family meals so that they'll grow up to be competent eaters. And it may take them, like you said, you have different personalities at your dinner table. And there are some that are so joyful, adventurous, like they'll try new things, they'll put it in, you know, they'll, you know, even try chewing it up and eating it. Without even making a face. But then my for example, my daughter's that way, but my son totally skeptical. He thinks you're out to get him like that, you're trying to trick him into tasting something. And even if it's the most delicious thing, like we had a fight over cotton ca, not a fight, but like it was over cotton candy and cuz it was a weird texture and he was like really suspicious about it. And then he finally tasted it and loved it. Again, it's that temperament and the personality of each of your children, which again, as a mom, you know your kids better than anybody else. So you may already have in mind that, you know, if you have more of a strong willed child or a skeptical child around the table, you're gonna see this show up in picky eating. So,

Katie: 9:55

Yeah. I really love what you said about it takes 10 to 20 neutral exposures to. A new food or just a food in general before kids might be willing to try it. And, you know, and so I think that word neutral is so important to really kind of let that sink in because like you said, like that really means that the parent has to come to the table with, I, I, I'm envisioning all of us, like tying our hands behind our backs and putting like duct tape over our mouth because it's so hard not to say things or, you know you know, push things, push. Plates of food closer to people or even just, you know, body language with your eyes and the way you're breathing. You know, just really, you really have to get into the mindset of like, okay, I really, I really don't care whether or not they try this. Like, the important thing is that they're being exposed to it. This, you know, and you think about like, just, let's take broccoli for instance. I mean, First of all, I do wanna say that you can force a child to eat a food because I have done it before. I have forced my oldest son to eat broccoli. And let me tell you the consequences were not fun because he vomited all over the table. Now he's 12 now. This was when he was much, much, much younger. I'm talking like four or five or something, but yeah, don't recommend it. So, so. Maybe in truth, you cannot force them to eat it, at least, unless, you know, not without some consequences that are really gross and disgusting. But but yeah, you know, that, and that was not a neutral exposure at all because that was me really forcing that upon him of like, No, you have to try this, or you have to take a bite. And it didn't end well. And to this day, he still, he still hates broccoli.

Aren: 11:31

it's so interesting with even the research shows that if you pressure a child to try to eat food or like even just being sar, I don't know, being like a drama like. Oh my gosh, this, this is so delicious. You've gotta try this. Like, even that kind of persuasiveness, kids are so smart and they can see you play in them. And that feel, that manipulation and it, it's almost like reverse psychology. Like they will do the opposite of what you're trying to encourage them and get them to do because it feels very Sort of forceful and, you know, unnatural for example. So they at the table, if you're like, matter of fact, and you're like, Well, I don't, you know, if you wanna try it, you can. And you just kind of. Man, it changes the mood around the table. Number one for the kids because they don't feel the pressure and they're more likely to try new things when there's not a lot of pressure on them to eat. On the other hand, especially your strong, strong willed child, they'll intentionally not eat it because they know you want them to eat it. So it's almost the less, if you take a step back, number one, the kids are going to respond a lot. You're not gonna have so much stress and guilt on your shoulders about getting them to eat vegetables because you just kinda let it go. It's just a matter of fact. You know, divisional responsibility, and especially with older kids, when you acknowledge that and say, Look, I'm not gonna make you eat anything you don't wanna eat. You can try it if you want. It's at the table. You can help yourself or not help yourself and eat as much or as little as you want. And. Like it's, it's miraculous how they will grow up to like the same foods that you eat and that you have exposed them to, and in terms of competent eating, they'll be. Able to kind of have that schedule and routine in their, in their day to day life to kind of provide reliable meals and snacks if they need'em, and then even push themselves along almost, It's almost kind of like a hierarchy of needs where. They'll start being like, almost like foodies, very at the very end. So they start out with just being super skeptical, eating a few things, and then they'll push themselves along with support and encouragement in the right way at the dinner table to then be able to Take care of themselves when they're not at home, which is the, again, that end game we are talking about. So again, it's not getting them to eat vegetables right now, it's getting them to be a competent eater later on in life.

Katie: 13:59

absolutely. And I wanna, you know, kind of shortly after that broccoli incident all those many years ago, we kind, I had a conversation with my husband and we kind of backed off a little bit at the dinner table cuz it just wasn't an enjoyable experience, you know, we're, we were just so fixated on what they were eating, how much of it they were eating, if they were being. if they were trying the foods or taking a bite of the foods that were on their plate or whatever. So we kind of backed off and it's just so much more peaceful and enjoyable to come to the table and just not have really any expectations as to what they might eat or how much of something they might eat. And I will say for my son, he still doesn't like broccoli, but he's become much more adventurous in what he'll try and eat. So I can kind of see that, you know, I have I have filled my responsibility of providing, you know, like, like you said, with the division of responsibility, like what we're eating when we're eating it and where, and then I'm just kind of letting him figure out the, how much is he going to eat of it and whether or not he's going to eat it. I'm, I'm letting him figure that out on his own. And I, and like you said, it's such a long game cuz I mean, we're talking now. What, 7, 8, 9 years of just kind of being more relaxed at the dinner table and, and what we require them to eat, you know? And we're finally seeing the, the fruits of that, right? The benefits of that. And now he's starting to try new things and branch out and, and eat more of what's put on the table. But it takes, takes a really, really, really long time sometimes, especially if, you know, we had years of probably not great healthy habits at the dinner table to kind of overcome. In push pass, but so I, I wanna talk about, you know, parents that kind of get stuck in this trap or the cycle of catering to their children. You know, cuz a lot of times when we have a picky eater it can just be really stressful and at the end of the day, we're tired and we really just want them to eat something and not have to listen to them complain about it. So a lot of parents will start to cater to their, to their picky eaters and only fix what they know they like and what they know they, they'll eat. I think as parents, we think that's. Minimizing the stress, but really it's, for us at least, it's creating more stress. Cuz now we're having to do more work. We're having to you know, cook this one meal for the family, but then cater to this other child who's refusing to eat the one meal. Then there's more cleanup involved. I mean, you know, the list goes, goes on and on. And then of course you're still stuck with the guilt of like, Oh, this kid still isn't, Eating anything that I'm cooking and I feel bad about it. So how can we kind of get out of that cycle, break that cycle of just catering to our children, our picky eaters.

Aren: 16:22

Man, I feel like a lot of it kind of stems from guilt, but remember the division of responsibility and let's not forget how hard it is to have a family meal. Like all the planning and all the things that have to, the stars have to align to get everybody to sit down around the dinner table, to have the groceries, to make a recipe. It's a lot of effort and energy. So you know, it's really disappointing and discouraging when you do all that. And then, like you were saying, you sat down, everybody's whining and complaining cuz they don't have what they like and you know, you're, you have like the rules, you want'em to try to eat all the stuff that you made, but then it like backfires. You don't get to enjoy your dinner. And the atmosphere around the table is. You know, it's just not enjoyable for anybody. So I feel like you can kind of leave your agenda and just focus on the time together. Prepare foods that you and you know, that you like. So at least if someone's gonna eat it, you're gonna at least get to enjoy it if you put all that energy into it. And then with the division of responsibility, Kids will come around to like the foods that their parents eat. So if you guys are meeting potato kind of people, you can't expect your child to start just liking asparagus outta nowhere. It's all that exposure of those same foods over and over again where the kids will start to like the foods that you kind of have. Around the table most often. And then is if they can get comfortable with that, then they'll push themselves along to try new things. But there's a checklist of five things that you can try to start implementing with the division responsibility that can make. Your picky eaters sort of come around and make those dinner times and meal times a little bit more enjoyable. So number one is start with having regular meals and sit down snacks. That way your child will be hungry when they come to the table. They're not grazing and panhandling for snacks and stuff in between meals, so only water in between meals and scheduled sit down snack. And I, I think this is hard, especially when you have a picky eater because you feel like, Oh my gosh, they're gonna starve to death. They're not gonna get enough to eat, so I need to feed'em whenever they want to eat, whenever they're hungry. And then you fall into that trap where, when it's time to actually sit down and eat the meal that you work so hard to prepare. They're not hungry. And then when they come to sit down at the table, then they behave like a jerk because they don't wanna be there, they're not hungry, and you almost have to bribe them to get'em to stay at the table. So if you can get that structure lined up and resist the urge to have any kind of juice or snack, unless they're going low, obviously that's the one exception, but only water between meals and scheduled. And then that way everyone comes to the table hungry. Number two is be considerate without catering. So this is a really, really important thing to consider if you answered yes to some of those picky eater questions. this is also a good place to where you can leave the guilt. So your job is to be considerate without catering. So don't ask your child what they want for dinner. Just include one or two things that you know, that they normally eat at that one meal. that way that they have something that, you know, they'll at least eat one, even if it's just one thing, even if it's bread with butter, or even if it's just the rice that you make with the stir fry. At least it's one thing you know, that they'll eat and do not get into that trap of making special food. Again, it just perpetuates and makes it, like you said, more work for you, more stress for you, more cleanup for you. And then down the road, what it eventually does is it makes the picky eater more picky when you cater that way. Number three, follow the division of responsibility. Again, staying in your lane with the what to prepare, when to prepare it and. What did I miss? The what, when and where.

Katie: 20:19

Mm-hmm.

Aren: 20:19

And remind your child. You don't have to eat. Those words are really hard to say, but it's really freeing for a child that's been pressured with the One Bite Rule or the Key Clean Plate Club and some of these well-intended um, approaches with feeding that sort of makes meals miserable for kids. So. Say, you don't have to eat. You can choose whatever you want to eat from what I'm serving and just leave it at that. show her you mean it, kind of stick to your rules. Don't make extra special food. Or if she asks for like a bowl of cereal or a peanut butter and jelly right after dinner, say, I'm sorry, we're gonna wait till our next snack or meal and then you can have something then. But again, you don't want. You wanna have a good backbone to sort of set these guidelines, and they'll push it. They'll push those limits. They'll beg and sneak food kind of in between. But once you set the rules and the guidelines, they'll fall into those patterns and rules and they'll know if they don't eat, they're gonna have to wait until the next meal or snack before they have something. All right.

Katie: 21:22

Yep.

Aren: 21:23

number four. Don't pressure her in any way to eat. this includes like the, even the body language like you were talking about, but don't bribe. Encourage cheerlead, reward force glare, punish, deprive, deceive, make a big deal of loving the food, or talk about how much she dislikes food or how picky she is or her likes and dislikes. So again, just make it matter of fact. Don't really make a big deal about it and just push forward with having that positive energy and attitude around the table. And eventually again, it takes a little while to undo if you've had some of those pressure situations for her to kind of settle in and get comfortable and not feel like she has to eat any one thing.

Katie: 22:11

Mm-hmm.

Aren: 22:12

She may eat a whole loaf of bread at one. I'm exaggerating, but you know, if that's the one thing she's had, and maybe it's been restricted in the past, you may find that she's like, Oh my gosh, I can have as much bread as I want and eat all of that bread. But after a few meals of having just bread and butter and eating that much, She's just gonna kind of, it's gonna lose its luster because it's not restricted anymore. It's just you're offering, you know, the food that you're serving and that's it. And Your eater, your child will come around to eating a more variety of foods. But there is that adjustment period where you're starting something new that if you just hang in there, it will make things easier for you especially, but then also you'll see it come along gradually with your children and how they're eating and how the table, how, how the atmosphere of the table feels.

Katie: 23:04

I like what you said about not, and I know, I think there's one more, number five that you, did you get to number five? Okay. So I like what you said though about not. Like making too big of a deal out of it when they do eat something new or they do, you know, try new food or whatever it may be. Like, don't go into mega cheerleading mode and, and praise them. I, I know for my, some of my kids, not all of them, if I were to do that, they would, they would be like, Well, I'm never doing that again. You know what I mean? Like, just to, I guess that's a strong willed child, or I'm not sure what you would call that, but they, they respond in the opposite way when I. When I encourage them like that, when I kind of get overly excited about them trying something new or liking something new, they're like immediately turned off by that and they don't wanna continue doing it.

Aren: 23:48

Right. And it feels, again, like persuasive in a way where like, oh man, that, you know, like, they must want me to eat this, and it might, you know what I mean? Like, it's just that whole reverse psychology thing. So, so yeah. The, the dinner. Table is not a good spot for like the, the sticker charts. Again, the more of a deal you make out of it, the more it's gonna backfire. The less, the more calm and casual you are about The food is surprisingly when you're gonna see the kids kind of push themselves along and come around to eating and In terms of number five, it kind of ties all of that together where you want to make meals a pleasure and a privilege. So have great conversation, make it fun, and you know, give them each little jobs that they can do, whether it's getting silverware or, or napkins or whatever to kind of help get involved in, in that family meal setup. There's some really cool things out there now where you can do like the rose and the thorn, like where you have that positive conversation about how the day went, what was the rose would be like, the best thing that happened to you. And then the thorn would be the thing that wasn't as great that happened. So you can kind of go around the table and kids just love to share and talk about their day, but give everybody a turn and. It makes a really positive experience around the table. And when they looked at the research as much as your kids kind of moan and grown kids, including teenagers, love family meals, they love that connection. And again, we know in research that kids who sit down at family meals do better in life overall. They're you know, less likely to do drugs and, and you. Be promiscuous and be target school. And I mean, the list goes on and on about um, smoking cigarettes and things where they feel more connected and have that family support and encouragement.

Katie: 25:37

Makes'em feel like they belong to something. Right.

Aren: 25:39

Right, right, right. And the other caveat to that make meals pleasure and a privilege, especially when it comes to manners. So set some guidelines for that picky eater where. You're not allowed to say yew, that's nasty and disgusting because that might hurt someone else's feelings. Who likes that food? And it's also insulting to the chef, so you can say with good manner, Say yes please, or No thank you. And behave at the meal. And again, I feel like with the younger children, if you can get them to come to the table hungry, not starving, but like where they're not just had a snack and then they're sitting down at the table, they'll behave pretty well and they'll participate. Especially if you do that, those sort of activities I even just saw An advertisement for a card game that gives you like little prompts that you pass out and you kind of talk about that question. There are a lot of fun ways that you can make it interesting and you know, kind of takes a little bit of the pressure away from the food and more on the connectedness. And that's the biggest deal when it comes to food because food is not just nutrition, it's got a lot of emotional connection to.

Katie: 26:46

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We like to play. Would you rather around the dinner table sometimes where everybody takes a turn coming up with a would you rather question? And yeah, manners. What I tell my kids is, you know, you don't have to like the food or even eat the food, but I do expect you to be polite and respectful so you will not complain about the food. you need to. Somewhat neat when you eat the food you know, we don't, we don't need, we don't need faces down in plates trying to eat, you know, we are gonna use, we're gonna use utensils and napkins and all that sort of thing. So so yeah, I mean, I have sent my kids away from the table before for, for those things, for, for being. Just rude and disrespectful and complaining about the food and, you know, saying things that would be hurtful to me. And it helps to, you know, have my husband kind of get in on that too, because he, you know, he'll, he'll say things like, you know, you're, you're being disrespectful to your mother. She worked hard to, to cook this meal, and, and you're sitting here complaining about it. You don't have to eat it, but you're not gonna sit here and complain about it. So, you know, if you can, if you can rope your partner into helping you with that too. But in that same breath, like family meals, I think the public's commercials and everything have made us think that it has to be this. Whole complete family unit with a mom and a dad and you know, the kids and everything. But I mean, it can be single parents. It can be done in the car on the way to sporting events. I mean, you know, it just, it's just that togetherness. You know, again, the parents are responsible for where, so where does it necessarily have to mean? Sitting around the kitchen table, you know, you can get creative with the wear. And you have to get creative with the wear a lot of times when your kids are getting older and they're involved in a lot of activities. So I just didn't want anybody to get stuck in that kind of trap of, oh gosh, this has gotta be like sitting at the table with the whole family. Many, you know, cuz I'm married, but my husband does travel a lot, so a lot of times it is just me and my kids.

Aren: 28:30

And you can kind of make it fun too, like do a picnic. You can, you know, sit down. I mean, and you can eat in the living room too if that's your jam, but you wanna make sure you don't have any distractions. So no phones or TV on where it kind of makes you forget about your, your eating experience and your fullness and satiety cues and hunger cues and stuff. But yeah, you could. You know, adventurous and even just like you said, like on the way to practice, like hand back snacks and, and, and different like combinations of foods to have a, a meal

Katie: 29:01

Mm-hmm.

Aren: 29:02

And you know, I, I feel like my kids are getting to the age where we're starting that run around crazy afterschool activities and it, it gets challenging. So just doing the best you can and just removing that. And I think that will go a long way and your kids will feel it at the table, and it will be a lot less on your shoulders in terms of expectations, because again, like you said, there's public's, commercials, and like even just the expectations of having a family meal, Seven days a week and it can get tricky, it can get overwhelming and it's a lot of work and a lot of cleanup. So yeah, just give yourself a little bit of grace. Start with where you are and if that's you know, microwave dinners. That's perfect. So you can all sit down together and have the microwave meal or microwave dinner or leftovers or, you know, even if you go to the restaurant and bring it home, you can all sit down together and still have that emotional connection with you know, your evening meal or your, your, your dinner conversation.

Katie: 30:02

Absolutely. Okay. So I feel like you've touched a lot on this in the last question that we had. But I kind of had here, what are some ways to encourage our picky eaters? And then what are some suggestions for parents that are kind of wanting to wanting to attempt to introduce new foods to their picky eaters? And I know you hit on this a little bit, it reminds me a lot your answer about like letting them like. And poke at it and stuff like that. Like I have a friend who's a speech therapist and that's a lot of what she does. She just, she lets kids like smell food and then like lick food or touch it on their tongue. It's like exposure therapy and tiny little increments.

Aren: 30:36

Yeah. Yeah. I would say, One of the best ways is getting kids involved around meal prep. So have them involved in like, Hey, what's, you know, is there a recipe that you'd like to try or helping having them help you with meal prep or, like we said, give them little jobs with like the silverware or the napkins or setting the table. And then as they get older, you can give them more jobs and responsibilities to where eventually they'll be able to help you prepare the meal themselves with a little help and like a grocery list. So it's kind of cool to watch them blossom into adults and have more responsibility around the meal time so that once they're on their own, you kind of have a little bit more trust that they're. Make it, they're gonna be able to do it on their own and not just eat microwave ramen for the rest of their lives, you know? But even doing like a little garden and letting them sort of smell the basil and lick it and taste it and sort of smash it in their fingers and, you know, that sort of pushes them along in a neutral environment to be exposed and experienced different foods. So That I think again, just kind of creates that emotional connection with the food going to, you know, we have we're lucky to have down our road, we have a lady that has ducks and chickens, so we always go and get like eggs and like duck eggs and chicken eggs, and we got to go meet the, the chickens and the ducks at one point with our kids. And so they have that connection with emotionally, with the farmer and all that. Farmer's markets and going to visit farms and things like that are another way to sort of expose them to food and count that towards their exposure to where they'll come around to eating it more with that emotional connection.

Katie: 32:14

Yeah. my kids like to come. I, I like to try to do it one at a time just cuz it's a little stressful to have all three in the grocery store at the same time. It's getting better now that they're getting older, but, you know, I like to one at a time kind of take them with me to the grocery store and they can help me bag up the, the fruits in the vegetables and, you know, get things off the shelves. And I think they enjoy that too, you know, just that one on one time and they're being helpful and they. See all the variety of, even if they don't like to eat the foods at the moment, they can just see what a variety of food there. You know, there are what? There's so much out there.

Aren: 32:46

Right, Exactly. And then the other thing I will say, so one of the biggest tips for introducing a new food is to try and pair it with a familiar food. So So put yourself in a child's shoes that's trying a brand new food for the first time and think like, go to like Food Network and like Anthony Bourdain, like traveling across, like if you go to some exotic country and you're setting down to eat with the locals, it feels really overwhelming when you don't have any clue what any of the food is, even if you're really adventurous with.

Katie: 33:18

Mm-hmm.

Aren: 33:19

you see a pile of rice on the corner of the plate, you're like, Oh, shoot. At least I have something that I know that I'll eat. So it kind of takes that stress off of new food and new meals. And like I mentioned with the stir fry, if it's a mixed dish, sometimes just deconstructing it makes it less intimidating for them to kind of add their own. Ingredients of what they like to that dish. Especially those sort of challenging foods that are all mixed together. So again, just combining familiar foods when you're introducing new foods. For an example would be like, It is the season, but like corn, if you know your child likes corn and you want to introduce maybe lima beans, you could maybe do like a suck attach where it would have corn and you know, peas and like some familiar things mixed in with the lima beans that you want'em to try again. They're not probably gonna try it for the first time. They may poke the bean and squish it, which is a success. Or they may spit it back into the napkin if they try it, but those are, Successes in your child, moving themselves forward into liking and trying new foods. So just be patient. And again mixing a familiar food with an unfamiliar food is gonna get you a lot further with them wanting to experiment and try something else, especially if they helped you pick it out at the grocery store. You.

Katie: 34:37

Yeah. Yeah. And I have found too, that my kids really like to serve themselves. if I, and, and it takes a l a little bit of work off of my plate, no pun intended. As well, because, you know, before I would be like getting everybody's plate ready before we came to the dinner table, which has a lot of work. And so I have found that it's, it's a lot easier and more enjoyable and people like it more when I just kind of put the bowls of things on the table and they can serve themselves. Yeah.

Aren: 35:05

And that's actually recommended with the, the division of responsibility in like family meals is that family style of serving and it makes it easier. For you too, also to kind of have the kids can kind of choose more of whatever they want. So it does alleviate some of that guilt of you having to get back up and go serve them more things. And everybody can still sit around and pass the food and it does, it, it makes it. Flow easier and and simpler. And I feel like it does reinforce the statement that you make. You can have as much or as little or none at all of any of the foods that I'm serving. So here it is, you know, choose from what, what's out there.

Katie: 35:44

You know, it's interesting, I went to summer camp with Sarah this past summer. It wasn't a diabetes camp, it was a just a church camp. And. I'm not kidding. I, there was probably a group of, my sister and I were in charge of like the fourth grade girls and there was a lot of'em. There was like, I don't know, 12 of'em or something. And all the girls that had been to camp the year before, Sarah had not. But all the girls that had, they, they said their favorite thing about camp was getting was the food. And it wasn't really the food itself. It. The, that they got to serve themselves. You know, it's this like big buffet style of food and nobody was telling them they had to put their fourth slice of pizza back and nobody was telling them they couldn't have a second helping of, you know, dessert or whatever it was. They just had so much control over what they were eating and you know how much of it they were eating. And lots of the kids would go to the salad bar and get salad. I mean, it's not like they were eating all junk all week long, let me tell you, that gave me a lot of anxiety, as you know, since Sarah. Type one. I never knew what she was gonna put on her plate, which was, That was tricky. But, and I, I wanted to talk a little bit about this just, you know, kind of putting type one into the mix of all this, like for me, And I want you to, you know, chime in as well with like, maybe some tips and tricks for parents. But for me if I don't know, like if we're in a situation like that where I don't really know what Sarah's going to eat or how much of it she's going to eat, I can usually guesstimate about how many carbs I think she's going to eat. Like at least how many I think she'll consume. And then just kind of make it up at the end, like make up the difference at the end. Like, you know, if I, if I notice she's eating a little bit more, we can bo more. I mean, you. In that scenario, blood sugars aren't probably gonna be perfect. But they're, at least, we're not gonna have this giant crash at the end where I think she's going to eat this and then she hates it and doesn't eat any of it. So, and, and the same goes, you know, even if we're not like at a buffet style, Situation at camp or restaurant if I'm cooking something that's kind of new to our family and I'm not really sure how much of it she's going to eat, I always have something on the table that I know my kids will eat. Like, like you said, like whether that's just a roll. I pretty much always have some sort of cut up fruit on the table that I know people will eat so I can kind of. Base our Bos on what I know. She definitely will eat like with the familiar foods. And then if she decides to eat some of the newer foods I can add more insulin to the mix after the fact if we need to.

Aren: 38:05

Right. And with an insulin pump that makes meal time so much easier and less stressful. Because, so what I would, what you're doing is perfect. So I would try to guesstimate the least amount of carbs you think your child's going to eat. And again, you know your kid better than anybody else. So did they eat a huge snack And they're probably not gonna. starving and so they may eat a little bit less. So go with the lesser number of carbs that you think you're going to eat in terms of calculating the insulin. Try to give that little bit as a pre bowl list, and as long as you have some kind of insulin kicking in and on board, even if they decide to go back and get second helpings of carbohydrate foods, you should be fine to just add it at the moment or at the end of the. To kind of make up for that extra insulin. And one of the tips that I like to do is When you're serving family style in the carbohydrate specific bowl, like rice or potatoes, use a serving spoon that you know is a half a cup or a third of a cup to make the calculations easier for you and your child to be accurate with your carb counting. So even if they do wanna serve themselves, they'll know that one scoop is 15 grams or, or 30 grams or whatever size portion you choose with your spoon. And then that way it makes the math a little easier. Now if you're on injections, it gets a little trickier. Before. In the last episode, we talked about communication. So for older kids, you can have them kind of look at what is available and the what, when and where of what you're serving, and they can kind of calculate about what they think they're going to eat. Oh, I'm gonna have a little bit of potatoes. I'm gonna have a roll, and then you can kind of do the math and calculate the injection as close as you can get. Now, if it comes to the fact where the child wants more food, which is absolutely fine, if you look at the division of responsibility, their job is to choose how much and whether or not they eat. So you need to be careful with saying an absolute no, but giving them the option and communicating with them. Their choices. So let's say they want another helping of potatoes. So they're getting ready to scoop the potatoes out and you're like, Ooh, we only took insulin for, this many carbs. If you want extra, you have a choice. So you can either just choose to take an extra injection for those extra potatoes or that extra slice of pizza or two that you want, or you can. Choose to pick green beans or chicken, that's not gonna make your sugar spike. So a lower carb option without an injection, or go ahead and have more carbohydrate foods, but then know that they're gonna have to take a shot with it and making it just so matter of fact. Make it like it's not anything to do with the food and don't put any kind of good versus bad sort of connotations on the food at the table, but just make it matter of fact where, you know, if you, if we eat more carbohydrates, we have to take the insulin and leave it at that. And again, communicating that and letting them choose in their division of responsibility there with type one. Now for younger kids, I absolutely a hundred percent agree with dosing at the end of the meal. It takes a lot of stress and pressure away from the table when you can let your child eat what they're going to eat when they're a toddler, and then dose at the end with injections. You really can only get within a half a unit anyways, So just trying to get in the ballpark and then kind of going from there, because food jags are real, like, especially with toddlers. I remember with my kids, it was like one day they would eat nothing but like Turkey and cheese and then the next day they would eat like, you know, every carbohydrate known to man and, and then some. So each day is gonna look. In general, when you think about nutrition, it's a three day average. So don't get caught up in, Oh, they didn't have any fruit today, or they haven't eaten any vegetables. It's a three day average for, for kind of getting the, the variety of nutrition that you need in. And you, again, don't sweat it. The more you worry about it and the more you stress, the more the kids are gonna feel that, and it's gonna turn out again, that psychological like negative. It's gonna go the opposite way you want get upset and it makes it not fun for you as a mom. There's already so much to have that's going on that adding extra stress around getting your kids to eat the division of responsibility can help alleviate a lot of that guilt.

Katie: 42:32

Yeah. Those are all great tips. I, I really enjoy, I had never thought about using a, serving spoon or scoop. That's an actual, You know, half cup or whatever. So you know about how much they're putting on their plate. And then Yeah, I know, I've heard a lot of toddler moms say, or of, you know, kids living with type one diabetes say that they Yeah. Wait till after the meal and, you know that's, I think that that would I agree. I feel like that would take a lot of the stress out of the. Situation of kind of trying to guess how much they're going to eat. And I mean, toddlers are so unpredictable.

Aren: 43:06

Yeah's,

Katie: 43:07

I cannot even imagine. I cannot, my hat is off to all those parents that have, little itty bitties.

Aren: 43:12

One last little thing I'd mention too, if you are like, let's say you do for the toddler or even the kid that's like, eh, you know what, not feeling it. Like again, kids don't know what they're going to eat till they really sit down at the table and they can kind of evaluate where they're at and what they're hungry for and that kind of thing. But if you dosed and then there's not there's not enough carbs to cover that insulin, then you could always supplement with. A beverage is usually the, the. In terms of the division of responsibility and letting them kind of I don't wanna say. Get something different than everybody else but serving milk and juice will make up for those carbohydrates that they didn't eat for their insulin. Those are kind of quick and easy ways to sort of supplement that, or maybe even the fruit since you know that they're going to usually eat fruit. You can utilize that to see if but again, you kind of wanna be cautious with how you're pressuring them to eat any food. But specifically it makes that tricky with type one. You need to have something to cover that insulin that you gave. So again, I feel like in, in lieu of raising a healthy eater that a few scenarios of high blood sugars and dosing after the meal may be worthwhile and less stress and safer for the child in the long run.

Katie: 44:25

we have the Sarah, I would not say Sarah's a picky eater, but we kind of have this issue more often in the morning than any other time of the day because everybody's just so tired. You know, we have to get up at like 6, 6, 6 or six 15 to get everybody out the door for school. So we kind of have a system where I will go in and say good morning, and ask her what she wants for breakfast, and then we'll dose for it. And then I set a timer and when the timer goes off, she has to get up and get dressed and then come out and eat her breakfast. Which there's a lot of complaints from my boys because they don't get that. They don't get to lay in bed and wait for their dimer to go off They have to get up when I tell'em to get up. But anyway but sometimes she's just so tired or she's like half asleep when she tells me what she wants to eat and then she gets up and gets dressed and then kind of is like, I just don't even want to eat all this food, or I don't actually want to eat this specific food. You know, I'd rather have this, and I've just had to learn to be like, you know, let's say I gave her 40 carbs for something and she only eats 20 carbs worth of the meal. I'll say, Hey, that's fine, but we did do 40 carbs and I don't want you to crash at school. So, Whatever it is that you want. Like let's pick 20 carbs worth of something to kind of make up the difference. And you know, every now and then she'll try to be like, What about Halloween candy? And I'm like, Well no, because I wouldn't let you do that even before you had type one diabetes. So I'm not gonna let you do that now. So let's choose something like a granola bar or a piece of fruit or you know, there's plenty of things in our pantry that you can pick that's not Halloween candy.

Aren: 45:51

Right. And honestly, if you can kind of even treat it more like medicine, like in terms of juice and stuff like that, and you don't wanna make it, like you said, you don't want to give them the alternate, the alternative. Of, Oh, if I don't eat, if I tell her 40 carbs and then I don't eat my breakfast, then I'll get candy that will sink in and they will manipulate you, for those, for those carbs. So make it boring, but something you know that they like and that they can get down pretty easy. Like I said, the, the juice or like you were like, you can choose this or this instead, but don't give them. the the choice of everything in the pantry. Now as they get older, you can kind of give them a little bit more responsibility with choosing the what around snacks and, and even breakfast and things like that. But it's, it's really tiptoeing and it's hard with diabetes to not try to cater and then make special accommodations. But you have to do it in, in the cases of where the insulin's kicking and you don't have any carbs on board.

Katie: 46:50

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Most mornings work out pretty well, but there are those few mornings that I'm like, Oh, you gotta, you gotta find something else to eat. Here's a banana. I don't know.

Aren: 47:00

Yeah, exactly.

Katie: 47:01

Luckily she, like I said, she's not picky, so she does love a lot of healthier options, you know, yogurts and fruits and whatnot. All right. Let's see. We already talked about the insulin. Okay. I, I just, maybe let's end with what, just, what advice do you have, And I know you're not a marriage counselor, but like if parents are not seeing eye to eye on how they should approach meal times with their kids, especially if they have a picky eater. You know, maybe one parent thinks that we should make them sit at the table until they clean their plate or they need to try one bite of everything on their plate or whatever. And then the other parent feels differently. What's your best advice, cuz I know that causes a lot of strife. I mean, we've been there in my family. That can cause a lot of stress and strife in a relationship and at the family dinner table for sure.

Aren: 47:45

It does. And honestly, feeding is one of those big cornerstones of just parenting and I feel like how you feed your kids is a kind of a reflection of your parenting as well, and just trying to be on the same page. even kind of almost presenting the facts about, listen, the more you pressure, the longer it's gonna take her to eat that new food. And if you refer to like that Ellen Satter Website, it'll give you kind of all the data points that you need in terms of restricting foods or being persuasive or forceful. And even, I'll be honest with you, even hiding black beans in brownies is a manipulation in a trust thing for kids. So resist the urge to interfere in any way in that division of responsibility. And when it comes to. Eating one meal or one snack or that is not a deal breaker if you don't do it right a few times here and there. It's not a big deal. It's the big picture. So if you can establish like the, the rules of the table and, and having that positive you know, family meal and, and not. Making special things. And it happens one a few times, not a huge deal, but just like anything else with parenting, if you let that rule slide a little bit, they're gonna see that opportunity. And so the more consistent you can be, the better. So try not to get too worked up over one or two little slips, but if it's something with your spouse that's happening more often and you're seeing that trickle down effect, You have to be open and have those conversations about it. And it's funny cuz my husband, my mom did a really good job with doing the division responsibility before it was even really out there. But my husband was raised where they used sweets as treats and, and it was like a reward. And so we've kind of had. You know, find an equal even ground in terms of snacks and treats. And I'm trying not to be the food police as the dietitian, wife and mom, you know, and encourage and, and, and make all foods fit. you know, you just kind of have to roll with the punches sometimes. But again, it's the consistency that matters just giving yourself a little.

Katie: 49:55

Absolutely. Gosh, I think that was a great conversation. I think a lot of families struggle with this, not just families that have kids living with type one diabetes. I think I would venture to say there's probably a picky eater in most families. I can think of many friends that I know with a picky eater in their families. So hopefully listeners were able to get some good nuggets of wisdom and. Apply it to their family and their meal times and just kind of lower the stress level around feeding these kids. Especially our little, little type one diabetics. So, So thank you Erin. Thank you for all your time and your advice and. I really appreciate it. You mentioned a few, you know, you mentioned the Ellen Satter website and I know you have a few resources that you think would be helpful to listeners just kind of surrounding this whole arena of having a picky eater. So I will link you, just pass'em along to me and I will link them in the show notes so people can get to'em.

Aren: 50:42

Yeah, that sounds great.

Katie: 50:44

All right. Well I will talk with you soon.

Aren: 50:46

Yes. Great day.

Katie: 50:50

That's it for our episode today, be be sure to check out the show notes for links, to where you can find Erin on her website and on social media. You may need Aaron's help. You may need Aaron's help as a registered dietician or as a diabetes educator or both. And if you do again, check out the links in the show notes. I will be back next week with another episode I recorded with Aaron. So be sure to check it out. Until then stay calm and bolus on bye.