324: Lessons in Leadership | What "Quiet Piggy" Really Means

Workplace bullying is more common than many mid-career professionals realize, and its impact on confidence, performance, and career clarity can be long-lasting. In this episode, we unpack a high-profile moment that reopened old workplace wounds for many. When power is misused to silence or diminish someone, it is more than a headline. It is a reminder of what happens in meeting rooms, team conversations, and one-on-one interactions every day.

If you have ever been interrupted, dismissed, or mocked at work, this conversation gives you practical tools to protect your voice without escalating the tension. You will learn how to identify bullying with clarity, respond with confidence, and set boundaries that reinforce your professionalism and value.

This episode is especially relevant for mid-career professionals navigating tough environments, preparing for interviews, pursuing a promotion, or reassessing their long-term fit within an organization.

What You Will Learn

• A clear definition of workplace bullying and the common forms it takes
 • How chronic interruptions and minimizing behaviors shape your visibility and credibility
 • Why professionalism is not the same as being passive
 • A simple three-part script you can use to redirect a difficult conversation
 • When to pause a tense exchange and how to reschedule strategically
 • How to document bullying using evidence-based language that supports HR conversations
 • When and how to escalate using HR, skip-level meetings, or mediation
 • What emotionally intelligent leaders do differently under pressure
 • Practical boundary-setting tools that work in both professional and family settings
 • How clarity and self-awareness strengthen your leadership presence and career direction

Mid-career is a pivotal time. You are expected to lead, influence, and deliver results while navigating complex personalities, organizational politics, and a rapidly shifting job market. Bullying undermines confidence, weakens your reputation, and creates barriers to advancement. Understanding how to protect your voice and self-advocate is a core skill for job searches, promotions, and long-term career satisfaction.

Your voic

Chapters

• 0:00 From Gratitude To A Hard Truth
• 0:50 Who This Show Helps And Resources
• 2:12 The Airplane Incident And Why It Matters
• 4:24 Defining Workplace Bullying Clearly
• 6:49 The Emotional Toll And Denial
• 9:36 Personal Stories Of Standing Up
• 12:30 Thoughts Create Feelings Create Actions
• 15:04 Professionalism Over Passivity
• 17:18 Ground Rules And Family Boundaries
• 20:18 The Three-Step Response Script
• 22:06 Pause, Exit, And Regroup
• 24:20 Documenting Incidents And Escalation
• 27:02 What Great Leaders Do Instead
• 30:00 Fit, Boundaries, And Holiday Triggers
• 32:10 Clarity As The Core Of Leadership
• 38:20 Closing Gratitude And Next Steps

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Hello, my friends. With just a few days before Thanksgiving, I thought this episode was going to be one about saying how thankful I am and sharing with you a few fun stories, but then something happened last week and I simply cannot overlook it. In this episode, I'm going to talk with you about bullying in the workplace and how you can protect your voice and your dignity no matter who's in the room. I hope you will stick around for this conversation. We've got a lot to discuss, so let's get started. I help mid-career professionals like you find a career they love or love the one they have using my proven four-step formula. Now, if you're new to the podcast or you maybe have never heard about this, I have a free email newsletter community I send out twice a week that discusses various leadership and career strategies for mid-career professionals. It's called the Mid-Career GPS Newsletter, and you can get it by checking the show notes or visiting my website at johnner.com forward slash resources to sign up for this twice weekly newsletter. Come on in and let me help you figure out whatever is next for you and your career. So last week there was an incident about leadership. And this one triggered me in a lot of ways. And I just want to say, I'm not using the word trigger lightly, because during my time as a mid-career professional, and for so many of you who are mid-career professionals, you often face subtle or overt disrespect. And when that disrespects come from people who are in powerful positions, you may be uncertain as to how you want to, think to, or should show up. So here's the point of reference. Last week, aboard Air Force One, there was a gaggle, and the gaggle is often referred to as the press corps on board Air Force One. And a distinguished journalist from Bloomberg News, Catherine Lucy, proceeded to ask President Donald Trump a question. Now, as I've watched the video multiple times, both on the news and online, the nonverbal as well as the verbal that comes from the president of the United States is very pointed and directed. You have probably heard the three words quiet, quiet piggy. Now, this podcast is apolitical. Um, I'm not gonna get into anything political in nature about whether you disapprove of the administration, approve of the administration, whatever that is. That's not the point here. This is a conversation about leadership. And I have talked to a lot of people this week where this particular incident brought up a lot of emotion. So let's unpack this a little bit. Okay. When someone who is in a position of power looks at another person and says something like, Quiet piggy, they are being dismissive, dehumanizing, and their intent is designed to belittle and silence them in that moment. I don't care whether you're the president of the United States, you're CEO of a company, you are someone's immediate supervisor. If you are looked at and pointed at and said, Quiet piggy, we have to acknowledge that not only is this unprofessional behavior, that the intent is to scare, belittle, bully, and dehumanize. Aside from making you be silent. The reason why this incident is so important in this mid-career conversation is that this mirrors what some or many of you may have experienced at some point in your career or have recently experienced. You are interrupted, you are talked over, you are humiliated publicly, and you are dismissed because someone who is in a position of power is exercising their authority with the intent to belittle you. I want to reiterate again: this is not about politics. This is about leadership behavior, modeling professionalism, and understanding what is and what is not acceptable at work. Have you ever been bullied by someone at work? For the purpose of this conversation, I'm going to define bullying behavior as one verbal aggression. It is someone who is insulting, mocking, or humiliating you publicly. Two, it is about interrupting or talking over you. And it is done in a way for that person to assert their dominance, essentially their professional dominance. It will look things like be quiet, listen to me, shut up. And the third reason is about dismissing or minimizing your expertise. Now, additionally, the bullying behavior could be a retaliation for something you did or something you said. And it could also be about passive aggressive sabotage. Now, this particularly looks like when someone is withholding information from you or excluding you from meetings in a sense to diminish you or put you down in some way, or even punish you again for something you said or you did. The emotional impact of being bullied at work is tremendous. It's huge. The impact of being bullied at work results in things like self-doubt, increased imposter syndrome, anxiety, being hesitant or fearful about speaking up in a meeting, feeling small or powerless, or even questioning your value at work. If this is happening to you, I want to acknowledge you are not imagining it and you're not being oversensitive. Bullying in any shape or form is wrong. And in the workplace, it is highly unprofessional and should not be tolerated. But you and I both know this happens. I'm not saying it's right. I will share with you that I have had conversations over the past week with several people who have tried to rationalize the president's behavior in saying something like that. And I've had conversations back to simply say, I don't understand how that can be rationalized. It doesn't make sense to me. If that was your mother, your wife, your sister, your aunt, your daughter, and you heard that someone said to them, quiet, Piggy, you'd be okay with that? That you think they deserved it? And as I've read multiple reports and I've heard things even from the White House press secretary saying how she was acting unprofessional to her fellow colleagues and everything. Even if that were to be true, and I was not on Air Force One, so I don't know that to be true, but even if it were, I still can't find a way to rationalize that kind of unprofessional behavior by calling another human being Piggy. And as I've thought about this, I have thought, oh my gosh, what if he called her a different name? Would we have a different reaction? We can't get into severity or escalation of terms because we're not going to justify unprofessional behavior here. Here's the other thing I want you to be aware of. And to be clear, I'm not magnifying or catastrophizing this situation because you and I both know there are leaders out there who are bullies. You and I know that if you are the recipient of that bullying behavior, you do feel small. You're probably angry as well, but not sure how to handle it. And more than likely, if you are listening to this podcast, you have such a big heart that I will say with absolute 100% certainty that behavior like this bothers you. That is not the way you would show up. It is not the way you would handle a situation. You are appalled at that kind of behavior. There have been times in my career where I have been bullied by somebody in a superior position to me. They have been dismissive, they have been um diminutive. They have tried to exercise their authority in a way to make me feel bad about speaking up or about um how I've handled a situation because it didn't agree or align with their particular philosophy. Now, I am 56 years old. 56-year-old John Nrell would handle things very differently than 36-year-old John Nero would. And I will share with you that there was a moment that I was dealing with a senior executive within an organization who lied and tried to throw me under the bus in front of my direct superior. And I stopped the meeting and I looked him directly in the eye and I said, You and I both know that is a lie. Stop doing that. 36-year-old John would not have done that. 46-year-old John did. Okay. But how we choose to show up and handle those situations are honestly a quick evaluation about risk and reward in the moment. I have seen things online about saying, you know, did did anybody in the press gaggle speak up for Catherine Lucy? Did anybody call the president out for his behavior? And if they didn't, they're complicit and they and they should be ashamed as well and everything, and and they're just as guilty. And in that moment, we would all question what we would do. Now, hopefully you are clear and certain about what exactly you would do in that situation. In my coach training, we are taught and learn that any given circumstance is neutral until we have a thought about it. So for example, the president calling reporter Catherine Lucy, quiet piggy, and saying that to her is neutral until we have a thought about it. That thought creates a feeling, that feeling creates an action, that action creates a result. If your thought is this is a direct conflict of my values, you might feel angry about it. You might speak up and say something, and then there was a result from that. You might be so shocked in the moment, your thought might be, I was stunned that somebody would even say that to another human being. I was and you're feeling as that I was paralyzed. You know, I was so shocked and so stunned that I didn't know what to do in that moment. But here's the thing when we deal with bullies, usually their behavior is not in isolation. So if you miss an opportunity to say something, the likelihood is they will do it again. It's not right. But you then may have a different decision or different action on how you choose to address that particular situation. So much of this conversation this week around bullying in the workplace has been about professionalism and what quote unquote effective leadership should be. I will share with you that there are some people out there who think what he did was perfectly acceptable. It's not. Not in my opinion. It is not. I will emphatically say over and over and over again that no one, regardless of power, position, or circumstance, should ever talk to another human being in that way. He could have handled that situation differently. Maybe he went for the viral moment. He certainly got it. Being professional doesn't mean being passive. And being passive doesn't mean you're being silent. Being professional is about being calm, clear, firm, and honoring your ground rules or boundaries that you have set up for how people treat you and how you treat other people as well. I saw this quote this week that professionalism protects you, silence protects the bully. Let me say that again. Professionalism protects you, silence protects the bully. You are not being disrespectful for setting and honoring a ground rule. You are responsible for your own dignity. One of my biggest regrets, and we talk about bullying behavior. So um in my early 30s, I was attacked. Um, I was on vacation. I was uh with a friend of mine, someone whom I had been in graduate school with. We had gone away to the beach for a weekend, and um we were we were walking along the boardwalk. It was late at night. We had gone to dinner, gone out to a bar, had a couple drinks, and um we were walking back to our hotel, and um what what I recall were four teenagers on bicycles, and one of them came up and hit me in the back of the head. And I never saw it coming, never heard it coming, um, clocked me right in the back of the head, like right, like a little off center at the base of like where the spine connects with the brain, like so just a little bit off to the side. And I hit the ground. I mean, I went, I went down, and all I remember them saying was effing faggot. And I didn't do anything. I never reported it because I never got a look at them. I was so scared, I was so upset, and I thought, well, they're never gonna catch them. There's there's no proof, you know, there's probably no video or anything like that. And I and I remember feeling so, so small. Um, I was in chiropractic care for six weeks after that. I had tremendous pain in my neck. Um, and and all that was just a constant reminder. And it brought back so many things from when I was a kid and when I was bullied, and you know, thinking about my job and and how I had worked with people who were trying to put me down. And looking back on the whole thing, I would have absolutely had gone to the police to report it, even if it was just for the sake of, look, this happened to me. I don't know who it was, I don't know why they did it, but but I need to tell somebody. And so when I think about how we treat each other, when I think about how we show up and and how we can respond in the moment, we have to make a choice about what we believe is right and best for us at the time. And some of you may disagree with me on this, but in that moment when you yourself decide how you choose to respond or react, there is no wrong choice. It is what you believe is best for you. So if you've ever been in a situation where you've been bullied at work and you have remained silent about it, that's okay. That's what you decided at that moment. And if and when it happens again, what do you want to do about it? So, how do you respond in the moment? How do you respond in the moment when someone is bullying you and you don't want to stand for it, but you still want to respond or behave in a professional manner? This is about conflict. And admittedly, as human beings, we are not great with conflict. A lot of times we avoid conflict. So, how do you respond in the moment? First thing I want to offer you to do is to name the behavior. You might say something to someone, please don't speak to me that way. I'm here to have a professional conversation or I'm doing my job. Please do not speak to me that way. Now, you've named the behavior. You are going to follow it up with a ground rule statement. That ground rule statement might be something like, I'm happy to continue this conversation when we can do it respectfully. I remember working with someone in an organization, they dropped more F bombs than I could keep tally of at times. They were like, oh, that's just who they are. Okay, well, if I find that language offensive, and I can tell you, there have been people who stood up to him and were like, I find that language offensive, don't use that language around me. And his response was, well, F off. Yeah, you know, that was that was that situation. You have a ground rule, you have a boundary, okay? So please don't speak to me that way. I'm here to have a professional conversation. I'm happy to continue this discussion if and when we can do it respectfully. And then you are going to redirect. And you will redirect from a position of clarity by saying, I'd like to finish my point. So just take a step back for a second. You are going to call out the offensive behavior. Please don't speak to me that way. That makes me uncomfortable. I am here to have a professional conversation. I'm happy to continue the discussion if and when we can do so respectfully. I'd like to finish my point. All right. And that agency is to simply pause the conversation and say something like, I'm going to step away from this conversation now. Let's pick this conversation up in 24 hours, or let's pick up this conversation. I will go ahead and reschedule the meeting. But right now, this is too tense for both of us. We're going to discontinue the conversation. In standing up to a bully, you do not have to nor need to match the tone or energy of a bully to stand your ground. Setting these ground rules was such an important part for me because, and I write about this in my first book, Show Up Six Strategies to Lead a More Energetic and Impactful Career. But in the book, I talk about how I actively worked at repairing the relationship I had with my family after I came out. And part of it was establishing ground rules to help deal with our collective anger and upset around what we were experiencing. So one of the ground rules we had was we would only ask questions out of curiosity and information, not to embarrass or belittle. Another ground rule that I had that was extremely important to me was no matter how angry I may be, I will always end my conversations with, I love you and mean it. And I'm very, very grateful I did that. We set ground rules for these conversations to set boundaries in terms of how we play. So you are not an inactive participant in this conversation. If someone is being aggressive or if someone is being a bully toward you and is making you uncomfortable, what I want to offer you here is this opportunity to very simply call it out. Name the behavior, use a ground rule statement, redirect with clarity. And if you are unable to continue that conversation with clarity, with calm, with professionalism, you can end the conversation and come back later. I have used this strategy multiple times in my career when I have delivered feedback that was uncomfortable and someone got upset. When I have had to have difficult conversations with management or leadership, and we got upset, we would step out of the conversation and come back to it. And one of the things I always come back to, and again, this was about how I was able to repair the relationship with my family, was you know, ending a conversation didn't mean it was final. It was the last thing that I was going to walk out of the house and never speak to them again. If that happened, we would regroup. And there was a time I remember my my mom, God bless her, you know, we're just having such a such a really difficult time. And and I looked at her, and I, by the way, for reference, I was in my late 20s, early 30s when this happened. And I said, um I said, look, you're clearly angry, um, you're being abusive, and I'm not gonna have this conversation with you. So if you cannot be respectful, we'll have this conversation another time. And my mom used loved the phrase snot nose. She goes, You snot nose, you're gonna talk to me this way and everything. Who do you think you are? And I said, Um, I'm your son, I'm an adult, and I'm not gonna stand for this. So we're gonna end the conversation. I love you. I will reach out to you in a couple of days, we'll go ahead and reschedule this conversation, but I think it's best we both walk away. And and I and I left the house, and my mother was so mad at me. Oh my gosh, she was so mad at me. But how you build trust is you honor the agreements you make. And so I called her in a couple of days. We rescheduled that conversation, and uh, I drove down and spent more time with him and everything. And she one of the first things she said to me was, I can't believe you walked out of the house. I said, Yeah, I can't believe you were being disrespectful and abusive. That's not how this is gonna be. And so you start building trust with the bully. You know, you start building trust in that way in order to make sure this is how things are gonna play moving forward. Look, I loved my parents dearly. I still love them. Uh, you know, I miss them terribly. My parents have been gone um, you know, 21 and 14 years. Um, and and I, if you're hearing me say, you know, oh, my mom was a bully, yeah, my mom could have been a bully at times, right? She could have been. She was, you know, she was very um particular in her own ways, kind of a thing. But that was her journey. That was okay. I loved her no less, you know? Um, but it was it was learning how to set ground rules, how to honor boundaries, how to make agreements with people. That's why this was so powerful. And and I'm not saying that if you're dealing with a bully at work or you're maybe you're struggling with a personal relationship that is that is abusive in some way, that this is gonna be the one thing that's gonna fix it all, because it may not. But the thing I want to offer you here is that this is about walking away from the conversation, knowing that you stood up for yourself, knowing that you honored your voice and your presence and and how you are in that particular moment to recognize what they can or cannot get away with. Now, in the workplace, if you are dealing with bullying or abusive behavior, after that incident is done, I want you to document that incident. Document that incident while it is fresh in your mind. Make sure you have a document of it, if you need to email it to yourself, whatever it may be, and then consider who you want to share that experience with. Is this something you take to human resources? Is this something you take to your direct manager, providing they're not the bully in this case? Is it your work bestie? Is it your trusted friend or ally at work that you need to share this with? When you are documenting and retelling the story and the incident, use evidence-based language. I heard, I saw, I witnessed words like I think or I feel about why they were angry or why they were upset is not going to help your case. So essentially, when you're using this evidence-based language, you're not using adjectives, you're not using emotional labels. Additionally, you want to make sure you document and evaluate any patterns in their behavior. Not a one-off type situation, but is there a pattern of abusive or bullying behavior that needs to happen? And if needed, you may decide to explore something called a skip level conversation. So, in that skip level conversation, you're going to go to somebody who is a level above where you currently are, or two levels above and skip that level essentially, um, to see how they may be able to help. You may have an ombudsman or a mediator within your HR department or your legal division that might be able to help mediate the next. Meeting. There might involve a role or team change. So you're no longer reporting to that person. And you might potentially look at leaving the organization and finding a new job to go elsewhere because you recognize that where you are may no longer be a good fit and you just don't want to be a part of that situation anymore. Again, I'm not condoning bad behavior. Right? If you are in a situation that you are being um verbally or even physically abused at work, right? Um, that is unacceptable. It is unprofessional. It should not be tolerated. You have to figure out what you want to do, and there are resources and people available to help you in those situations. Okay. But here's the other piece. In all of this conversation over the past week around these comments about quiet piggy, there's been another conversation at play. And that conversation has been what great leaders do instead. Great leaders are leaders who have strong emotional intelligence and they model composure. They don't need to demean or diminish someone else by demonstrating their authority. They treat people with respect, even in conflict. I had a business situation last week, and I was I was on the phone with two different um organizations um that handle something for my business, and and I said uh four words to them very calmly, and I said, I am not happy. I didn't say anything after that. As coaches, we learn to hold space, and I said, I am not happy.

SPEAKER_00: 32:18

What do you think it was that they said? What they said was, it's understandable you're not happy.

SPEAKER_01: 32:31

How do we make this better? We were able to come to a mutually agreeable resolution. See, leaders, good leaders, great leaders, um show restraint under pressure. I've not always done that. Right? It's how we learn. You know, we don't always handle situations as best as we would like. Great leaders invite accountability and questions and reflection and forethought. Great leaders own where they are. Great leaders accept responsibility. And great leaders who have great stress and great pressure on them for whatever organization they're running, great leaders recognize that being in charge does not give them permission or the right to belittle another person ever. Over this past week, I have thought so much about the the women I've coached, the women I've worked with, the women I've I've led alongside, the women who have led me. And this this whole incident this past week has has really upset me. Um it's not the example I believe that we should be putting out there. And do I ever think we're gonna get an apology from the president about that? No, I don't. I don't think he's capable, I don't think he's that kind of person. Um I have worked with leaders who I believe like him are emotionally unavailable, um, that just will never issue an apology. They just won't. Now, I might be wrong. Okay, that that would be great. But in closing, here's what I here's what I want you to lean into. When you think about the four F's, the four Fs that I've talked about and I coach around about fit, function, finance, and forward. The fit is about deserving a workplace where you are respected, heard, and valued. And I invite you to think about what demonstrates for you what being respected, heard, and valued are? How do you know when you're being seen, when you're respected, heard, and valued? I encourage you to think about these questions. Where am I tolerating disrespect? Where do I need firmer boundaries? What support do I need to protect my professional well-being? You might be driving for Thanksgiving or traveling for Thanksgiving and spending time with family or friends where maybe you have differing viewpoints and opinions on things. You can set a boundary before dinner. We're not gonna talk politics, we're not gonna talk religion, we're not gonna talk about things that are controversial. Or if we are gonna talk about those things, we're gonna maintain respect and decorum. We're gonna listen and be curious. We're not gonna say anything to belittle or demean. When I managed a team of instructional coaches for DC Public Schools, one of the ground rules we had for all of our meetings and interactions was challenge ideas, not the person. Do you know why we had that ground rule? Challenge ideas and not the person. Because I had been in meetings where people were calling each other stupid uh-uh. We can challenge an idea, we're not gonna challenge the person. We're not gonna belittle or demean them. This whole episode hopefully has given you some things to think about what it means to stand up for yourself. Standing up for yourself is not about being confrontational, it is not about responding with the same level or greater fight. Standing up for yourself is about clarity. It is the clarity that you have that defines how you choose to show up in a given moment, because that honors who you are, and it's your values, and it's your system that you walk with day in and day out because that's who you are. That is how you choose to lead. And clarity is the foundation of leadership. I would far rather work for someone who is clear on what they stand for, what they acknowledge, and what they believe in. So I know what I'm getting every single time. I do not want to be led by a chameleon. I never want to have to walk into a leadership conversation and unsure of what I'm going to get today. I have been there. It's not fun. Right? So, in your role right now, think about how your leadership is clearly defined and how your team and direct reports and the people whom you are reporting to know what they are getting on a consistent basis. That is powerful and transformative leadership. That is what great leaders do. So, my friends, take care of yourself, be kind to yourself, protect yourself, stand up for who you are and what you believe. And if you are called to um set those ground rules and those boundaries, and that's what you believe is best, I applaud you. So much of my coaching right now is focusing on helping people show up in the ways they want, showing up in their jobs and in their work and their professional lives and how they're leading people. So if this episode resonated with you, if this episode means something to you, if you are looking to explore your leadership and how you show up with clarity and conviction, um, and this has been impactful for you, then I invite you to reach out and learn more about how I can help you as your coach. You can message me on LinkedIn or you can email me at john at johnner.com. Happy to talk with you a little more about how I can help you as your coach. So that being said, this episode went far longer than what I thought, but I think we're just gonna keep it and uh and and get it out there. And uh happy Thanksgiving. I am grateful for you. Thank you for being part of this podcasting journey with me. Thank you for who you are and what you do. And wherever you travel, however you travel, and wherever you go this Thanksgiving holiday, um be safe, make memories, and remember how you show up matters. Make it a great rest of your day. Happy Thanksgiving. Thank you for listening to the MidCareer GPS Podcast. Make sure to follow on your favorite listening platform, and if you have a moment, I'd love to hear your comments on Apple Podcasts. Visit johnnarrell.com for more information about how I can help you build your mid-career GPS, or how I can help you and your organization with your next workshop or public speaking event. Don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and follow me on social at Johnnarrell Coaching. I look forward to being back with you next week. Until then, take care. And remember, how we show up matters.